Fastest Fastball?

[TheHawkN02]

Does anyone know who has the fastest recorded pitch in MLB history? If so, please include pitcher and speed of pitch in MPH. My personal guess might be Nolan "Flame Thrower" Ryan, but if aware of one faster, please reply.

Thanks in advance, "TheHawkN02" out.

[baseball5113]

i'm not 100% on this but i'm along the lines of 90-95% that it was nolan ryan...i am for sure that it was 101.3 mph.

[The Commissioner]

The Guiness Book of World Records lists Nolan Ryan's 101.9 MPH fastball on 8/20/74 as the fastest pitch ever recorded. This and other Guiness Baseball Records can be found right here at the almanac:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_guin.shtml

[gophills619]

Hasn't Billy Koch's fastball been measured at 101 mph?

[codehappy]

Nobody knows who threw the hardest. Most radar guns used in-game to measure pitch speed are not kept well calibrated, and (depending on the delivery of the pitcher) don't always get a good enough "read" on a ball to return an accurate speed. So most of those readings are uncertain to within a couple MPH.

Nolan Ryan did have a fastball officially clocked at 101.9 MPH under controlled conditions, which is why his numbers are in the Guiness world record book. But, hey, Nolan Ryan probably pitched faster balls in a game sometime in his long MLB career. Nobody knows for sure which major league player had the fastest fastball. Nolan Ryan is a safe bet - certainly among the fastest - but nobody knows.

Many people who saw both Nolan Ryan and a minor league pitcher Steve Dalkowski pitch thought Dalkowski threw the hardest. A, ahem, "slight" control problem kept him out of the majors. Here's an article where you can read more about Dalkowski, it's certainly a fascinating story: http://home.rmci.net/taengon/page8.html

[billforn]

Back in the 1940s, Bob Feller was clocked by a photo cell device at 107 mph. This device predates radar guns and is considered to be more accurate than radar guns. In fact, from my understanding, to this day the U.S. military still uses the photo cell technology because of its precision.

[Themescules]

Nolan Ryan's Fastball was clocked at 100.9 MPH not 101.9, as a matter of fact if you look at the link The Commissioner gave it will say 100.9, I remembered when RYAN did it.

Yesterday July 24th, 2002 I was watching ESPN and they showed a ball that Guillermo Mota of the Dodgers threw to Ron Gant and Gant got a hold of it and smacked a two-run homer in the 7th inning for the Padres. Espn froze the scene and the pitch gun showed the pitch to be 101 MPH, that's the fastest I've scene and you can contact ESPN about it, it was pretty cool to see a pitch that fast and more amazingly Gant smashing it into the seats.

Themescules

[trosmok]

I have heard the same story about Feller and the photo cell, and under controlled conditions I'm sure the velocities are close but not fully representative of what can happen in game. A little adrenalin is a wonderful thing! Herman "Flea" Clifton related to Mike Shannon a case for someone who could really bring it: We went out to watch the Indians take batting practice, (during his rookie season as a Tiger in 1934). I wanted to see them hit because they had some people who could swing the bat.... Hal Trosky, Earl Averill, Sam Rice, Joe Vosmik. Well, I was sitting there in our dugout, and to my surprise these guys weren't hitting nothing. This big old plowboy was out there pitching, and the Indians could hardly hit a foul tip off him, in batting practice. This plowboy was throwing with a nice and easy sidearm motion, but the ball was just exploding up to the plate. Our manager, Mickey Cochrane, and one of his coaches, Cy Perkins, came in to the dugout, so I said to them, "Who's that plowboy out there pitching? The Indians can't even hit a foul ball off him." Cochrane looked at Perkins, and Perkins looked at Cochrane, and then they both laughed. "You don't know who that is?" asked Cochrane. "No, I don't. That's why I'm asking you" I said. "That's Walter Johnson," Cochrane said. "Walter Johnson!" I said. "He's the Cleveland manager; he's got to be almost 50 years old; and his own pitchers don't throw that fast?!" "And I'm damn glad they don't." said Cochrane.

[treant985]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-02 AT 11:36 PM (EDT)]I've seen the little MPH part of the screen at 102 for Armando Benitez, along with 100 for Felix Rodriguez, 101 for Bartolo Colon, and 101 for Randy Johnson.

[Steffo]

last year i saw randy at 102, Rob Nen at 100, Kyle Farnsworth at 101 and Felix Rodriguez at 100, to name a few.

The Dodgers Fan

[Ytown_Tribe_fan]

I recall the Bob Feller story, but I think it was 98 mph. He had to throw the ball through a box, and it took several attempts to get it just right. I'm sure he hit over 100 from time-to-time, especially when he was in his early years.

I'd like to see what Colt Griffin does when he gets his cup of coffee. He hit 100 while in high school two years ago.

[froshman2002]

Well yes that would be a Mr. Schilling. The gun actually could not pick up the ball because it was traveling so fast and sinking and rises and doing all kinds of nasty stuff. But we are all certain it was faster and more nasty then all others.

But rest assured it was a strike.

Because as we know Mr. Schilling does not walk anyone, he only strikes them out.

Please see the thread about Mr. Schilling in the this forum for further proof of his awesomness.

Mr. Schilling you know where to report and what you should be picking up. And yes that is singing we hear in the background.

[Monsi]

Does anybody know where to find more information about the Bob Feller story?

I have a bet with an English Cricket lover, who is telling me cricket bowlers are faster than baseball pitchers.

[Kroxquo]

Cricket bowlers are allowed a running start, however their elbow cannot bend at the point of the release of the ball, so I would think that that would tend to slow the ball down.

[Shoeless]

The fact is we'll never have controlled measurements of anyone in the past...the issue is not accurate quantity but legend, innuendo, reputation. So my vote, for the pre-radar era, is with Dalkowski. He once threw it through a chainlink backstop--they kept the hole; I think it's mentioned in the article codehappy refers to.

[webmaster]

Hello Baseball Fans,

Many of you mentioned the original article written about Bob Feller. Others some anecdotes. Today I wrote an article about this topic and included a nifty little velocity calculator (in case you ever wondered how many feet per second a 100 mph fastball is actually traveling).

The Fastest Pitcher in Baseball History (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml)

Enjoy,

Sean

[Mulliganfan]

I'm still digging through my things to find the Baseball Digest article that said NY Yankee (infielder) Mark Koenig threw the fastest pitch on record. I actually wrote to Koenig at the time. He denied throwing a ball that hard, saying that it was physically impossible to throw a ball as hard as what they clocked him at.

[Mulliganfan]

Originally posted by Macker
Was is Koenig or Joe Gordon who was the Yankee 2nd baseman clocked as 117 (or was it 127) MPH? Maybe it was Koenig, but I seem to have misremembered it as Gordon. I think we are talking about the same story.

It was discussed in Baseball Digest several years ago. The editors stated that it wasn't clear what distance the 2nd baseman threw the ball (whether it was a 'pitch' or whether he was clocked from his 2nd base position.

OK, so you remember it too. It was Koenig. I wrote him a letter years ago about this and he replied "it is humanly impossible to throw a ball 117 miles per hour."

[cowboy15]

at a spring training camp for the astros is was reported that JR Richard hurled a fastball at 103. whether thats true or not i dont know....

[TheDarkDragon]

Eddie Feigner (the greatest fastpitch softball pitcher of all time) had a fastball clocked on a radar gun at 104. To my knowledge, this is faster than any clocked baseball pitcher.

I remember the game in which Randy was clocked at 100+, and it was in fact 102.

I seem to recall Nolan Ryan being clocked at 103.5 or so, in a controlled environment outside of a game.

Alan Embree, (setup man and now closer-by-committee chairman for the BoSox) was clocked at 100 at least once last season.

[Steffo]

I remember watching a Cubs game where I think it said 101 mph after Kyle Farnsworth pitched. The Guiness record is just pure baloney. They don't ever keep track of it. I bet Walter Johnson or Bob Gibson threw it 101+ a couple times.

[Ichi Ro]

Jenks of Chicago threw 102, two times tonight in Seattle.

[buckthis]

last year i saw randy at 102, Rob Nen at 100, Kyle Farnsworth at 101 and Felix Rodriguez at 100, to name a few.

The Dodgers FanMany Giants fans wish this was true but it's not. Mr. Nen last threw that hard three years ago.

Billy Wagner was in town last week and clocked a few at 100.

[Zito75]

How about Steve Dalkowski? He is the real version of "Nuke LaLushe." I've read stories that he could throw close to 110, this being back in the early 60's. He had massive control problems and eventually drank himself into dementia. Another tragic tale of wasted youth...

[Chisox73]

Jenks of Chicago threw 102, two times tonight in Seattle.
I saw that last night. :eek: I thought it was funny when Jenks threw that 1st 102 mph ball,Richie Sexson fouled it off the HP umps mask.That had to rattle the ump.

[Atlanta Braves Freak]

When I'm at the ballpark I hardly pay attention to the speed of the pitch. Of course they often add 2-3 MPH to get the crowd into the game, I know Jenks, Wagner, and Johnson can get up there on the radar, but 102 MPH?

[Scoops]

Many Giants fans wish this was true but it's not. Mr. Nen last threw that hard three years ago.

Billy Wagner was in town last week and clocked a few at 100.
And of course, the post you quoted is from... *drum roll* ...three years ago ;)

[mordeci]

I think the radar guns in the stadiums are intentionally set up to run hot, just for hype's sake.

[west coast orange and black]

Billy Wagner was in town last week and clocked a few at 100.last wednesday, wagner's 9th inning was clocked at, in sequence:
winn: 98, 98, 98, 98, 98, 99, 99, 99 - p3
vizquel: 100 - p4
feliz: 88, 100, 87 - 6-3
I think the radar guns in the stadiums are intentionally set up to run hot, just for hype's sake.i agree, three-finger.
also, depending on who is pitching, it goes the opposite direction and the clock gets turned off.

[Yankees]

Nobody knows who threw the hardest. Most radar guns used in-game to measure pitch speed are not kept well calibrated, and (depending on the delivery of the pitcher) don't always get a good enough "read" on a ball to return an accurate speed. So most of those readings are uncertain to within a couple MPH.

Nolan Ryan did have a fastball officially clocked at 101.9 MPH under controlled conditions, which is why his numbers are in the Guiness world record book. But, hey, Nolan Ryan probably pitched faster balls in a game sometime in his long MLB career. Nobody knows for sure which major league player had the fastest fastball. Nolan Ryan is a safe bet - certainly among the fastest - but nobody knows.

Many people who saw both Nolan Ryan and a minor league pitcher Steve Dalkowski pitch thought Dalkowski threw the hardest. A, ahem, "slight" control problem kept him out of the majors. Here's an article where you can read more about Dalkowski, it's certainly a fascinating story: http://home.rmci.net/taengon/page8.html


That site isn't up anymore, but try this:
http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/players/175838.html

One of the trivia things:
In a high school game, Dalkowski threw a no-hit, no-run game with 18 strikeouts and 18 walks.

[Bluesteve32]

Nolan Ryan's Fastball was clocked at 100.9 MPH not 101.9, as a matter of fact if you look at the link The Commissioner gave it will say 100.9, I remembered when RYAN did it.

Yesterday July 24th, 2002 I was watching ESPN and they showed a ball that Guillermo Mota of the Dodgers threw to Ron Gant and Gant got a hold of it and smacked a two-run homer in the 7th inning for the Padres. Espn froze the scene and the pitch gun showed the pitch to be 101 MPH, that's the fastest I've scene and you can contact ESPN about it, it was pretty cool to see a pitch that fast and more amazingly Gant smashing it into the seats.

Themescules

I was at the game when Ryan was given the official recognition for his 100.9 pitch later on that year at Anaheim Stadium. He was given a "Speed Checked by Radar" highway sign with four balls attached to it. The had the mic out and did the presentaion.

I remember Dick Emberg talking about it that his fasted pitch was in the 8th or 9th inning. To me, all the memeries of Ryan inclue Dick Emberg, especially his 383 strikeout in the 12th inning against Minnesota's Rich Reese.

[afox3699]

Did anyone know that the fast fastball was thrown by a softball player?
http://www.kingandhiscourt.com/index_home.html

Check it Out

[ArealBASEBALLfan]

Nolan Ryan I think throw the fastest in a game but people threw faster in spring traning games.

[Jays]

Don't know how old this thread actually is but I used to watch Billy Koch clocked at between 99 and 101 mph on a regular basis, and twice at 102mph. Assuming the Radar Gun is off by 1 MPH either way that would make it either 101MPH or 103MPH. I would say 'officially' it has to be Nolan Ryan at 100.9 MPH. What I would really like to see is an official competition similar to a home run derby, possibly during the all star break? :p

Anyways, here's some referance material on the subject:

Nolan Ryan 'official' Record:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_guin.shtml

Billy Koch Pitches 102 MPH @ Oakland:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_guin.shtml

List of Observed Fastballs, Speed Converter, & Misc Info on Fast Pitchers in MLB:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml

[RedSoxVT92]

Steve Dalkowski was a wicked fast pitcher.

Had absoultly no control however. In his 995 inning career he walked 1354 batters while striking out 1396 batters. If he had control he would have been great. Here is the part about him in Baseball Almanac.



Steve Dalkowski.

“To understand how Dalkowski, a chunky little man with thick glasses and a perpetually dazed expression, became a ‘legend in his own time’...”

— Pat Jordan in The Suitors of Spring (1974).

The fastest pitcher ever may have been 1950s phenom and flameout Steve Dalkowski. Dalkowski signed with the Orioles in 1957 at age 21. After nine years of erratic pitching he was released in 1966, never having made it to the Major Leagues. Despite his failure, he has been described as the fastest pitcher ever.

Ted Williams once stood in a spring training batting cage and took one pitch from Dalkowski. Williams swore he never saw the ball and claimed that Dalkowski probably was the fastest pitcher who ever lived. Others who claimed he was the fastest ever were Paul Richards, Harry Brecheen and Earl Weaver. They all thought he was faster than Bob Feller and Walter Johnson, though none of them probably saw Johnson pitch.

In 1958 the Orioles sent Dalkowski to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds, a military installation where Feller was once clocked. Feller was clocked at 98.6 mph. Dalkowski was clocked at only 93.5, but a few mitigating factors existed:

1) Dalkowski had pitched in a game the day before, so he could be expected to throw 5-10 mph slower than usual;

2) there was no mound to pitch from, which Feller had enjoyed, and this would drop his velocity by 5-8 mph;

3) he had to pitch for 40 minutes before the machine could measure his speed, and he was exhausted by the time there was a reading. Other sources reported that the measuring device was a tube and that he took a long time to finally throw one into the tube.

It was estimated that Dalkowski’s fastball at times reached 105 mph. Dalkowski was not physically imposing, standing only 5'8" and wearing thick glasses. He had legendary wildness, which kept him out of the Major Leagues. In 995 minor league innings, he walked 1,354 batters and struck out 1,396. He walked 21 in one minor league game and struck out 21 in another. In high school he pitched a no-hitter while walking 18 and striking out 18.

He threw 283 pitches in a complete game against Aberdeen and once threw 120 pitches in only two innings. He played in nine leagues in nine years.

In 1963 for Elmira he finally started throwing strikes. During spring training in 1964, Dalkowski was with the Major League club. After fielding a sacrifice bunt by pitcher Jim Bouton in spring training, Dalkowski’s arm went dead and he never recovered. He drifted to various jobs and landed in Bakersfield, California, where he was arrested many times for fighting.

He once threw a ball at least 450 feet on a bet. He was supposed to throw the ball from the outfield wall to home plate, but he threw it well above the plate into the press box. He once threw a pitch so hard that the catcher missed the ball and it shattered an umpire’s mask. Dalkowski was the basis for wild fastball pitcher Nuke LaLoosh in the movie Bull Durham.

[ArealBASEBALLfan]

Does anyone know who has the fastest recorded pitch in MLB history? If so, please include pitcher and speed of pitch in MPH. My personal guess might be Nolan "Flame Thrower" Ryan, but if aware of one faster, please reply.

Thanks in advance, "TheHawkN02" out.
it is Nolan Ryan and it was like 102 MPH

[soberdennis]

I read a quote from Cy Young once concerning Feller that went something like this "I've seen faster. Johnson was faster. Russie was faster. And I was faster than all of them."
Young's modesty might leave something to be desired. But I had to laugh when I read it and I thought I'd share it with you.
Of course I don't know if we'll ever know just how fast Johnson, Russie, Young, or others from that time really were.

[tommydale1]

Their is no way to verify. That's the problem we are all up against. I've read the articles about Dalkowski, Smokey Joe Wood, and Smokey Joe Williams. It's hard to say, without some tangible records, who was the fastest. I'm suprised that no one else has mentioned either of the Smokey Joe's on this thread.

[Aqua]

There's absolutely no way to tell, for reasons that have been well enumerated above.

But just to throw another name out there, I remember Mark Wohlers being clocked at 104 in a spring training game several years ago, before he...um...stopped being any good.

[sfgiants29]

Don't know how old this thread actually is but I used to watch Billy Koch clocked at between 99 and 101 mph on a regular basis, and twice at 102mph. Assuming the Radar Gun is off by 1 MPH either way that would make it either 101MPH or 103MPH. I would say 'officially' it has to be Nolan Ryan at 100.9 MPH. What I would really like to see is an official competition similar to a home run derby, possibly during the all star break? :p

Anyways, here's some referance material on the subject:

Nolan Ryan 'official' Record:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_guin.shtml

Billy Koch Pitches 102 MPH @ Oakland:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_guin.shtml

List of Observed Fastballs, Speed Converter, & Misc Info on Fast Pitchers in MLB:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml


Most of those stats given in those links are dated. For example, in the highest attendance for a sporting event in the U.S. has been shattered year after year during the U of Michigan vs. Ohio State football games averaging over 100,000 for the past few years.

[baseball=my life]

I think I rememeber Robb Nen clocked 100 but I was just a kid so single pitch seemed that fast:laugh

[nosoupforyou]

RedSoxVT92 has the article posted above. There is no way to tell though, and there never will be. Nolan Ryan is in Guiness for 100.9, not 101.9. But every year someone comes and throws 100 mph. Detroit has two fireballer rookies who have both hit 101 on the radar gun this year, Verlander and Zumaya. But you can't go by radar guns because they are not 100% accurate, that's why most police departments don't even use them anymore. Mark Wohlers clocked 104 in the late 90's, but we can't be sure how accurate the gun was. Verlander, Zumaya, Koch, Jenks, Gagne, Farnsworth, and a number of others have all been clocked recently at 100 plus, but who knows if Ryan, Feller, Dalkowski, or someone else has thrown faster. I would be willing to put my money on Dalkowski based on the article, I wonder if there is anyone in the majors who could throw a ball more than 450 ft. If he could really throw that far, he had to of been able to throw it pretty damn hard a distance of 60 feet, 6 inches.

[trosmok]

Most of those stats given in those links are dated. For example, in the highest attendance for a sporting event in the U.S. has been shattered year after year during the U of Michigan vs. Ohio State football games averaging over 100,000 for the past few years.

Welcome aboard, sfgiants29! Right you are about ever changing stats, and accuracy of older ones. However, the largest attendance for a single sporting event has been the Indy 500 for decades. There are 250,000+ reserved seats, as well as 100,000+ general admission tickets sold since the new stands were constructed. That is, of course, if you consider the motor sports a sport.:D I've been to Ann Arbor for the Big Ten's biggest rivalry game, and it is truly awesome to see the throngs of Buckeyes and Wolverines that descend on the town that weekend.

But, back to baseball; I'm faily certain there have been dozens of pitchers capable of throwing 100+ mph long before accurate timing devices came into being. It is also logical to extrapolate there were also some mighty strong arms in the field, LF in particular, that could have easily topped three figures in speed. Former Reds nasty boy Randy Myers was clocked at 102 in a relief appearance, but as usual, the gun's accuracy was subject to debate.

[CanadianKid]

According to Baseball Almanac the fastest pitcher ever clocked was by Mark Wohlers at 103mph in a 1995 spring training game.

[Jays]

Most of those stats given in those links are dated. For example, in the highest attendance for a sporting event in the U.S. has been shattered year after year during the U of Michigan vs. Ohio State football games averaging over 100,000 for the past few years.


Yeah I admint that they are pretty dated, but it's pretty much all I could find, not like MLB is giving us much to work with are they? Too bad they can't show up every now and again at a park with a properly calibrated gun and measure everyones official pitch speed off of that. Ahh well, guess there will never really be a way to conclusivly say who is the fastest until MLB starts recording it as an official stat.

[nolanryan5714]

The Guiness record is just pure baloney. They don't ever keep track of it. I bet Walter Johnson or Bob Gibson threw it 101+ a couple times.
I can see where you are coming from with that comment, but in all fairness, don't you think Nolan threw a few pitches harder than 100.9? If Spring Training counts, or other "off-the-record" type of stuff, I'm sure the debate will rage on for eternity...but my gut feeling is that Nolan hurled a few fastballs topping 103 that went "unrecorded."

[Seurat]

I have a bet with an English Cricket lover, who is telling me cricket bowlers are faster than baseball pitchers.

I shouldn't think this bet is still running, but I thought I'd add a bit of cricket info for the records.

The highest electronically measured speed for a ball bowled by any bowler is 100.23mph by Shoaib Akhtar of Pakistan in 2003. A similar speed was claimed for the Australian Jeff Thomson in the 1970s.

Speeds are now mostly measured using a system called Hawkeye info here (http://www.channel4.com/sport/cricket/analyst/hawkeye/about.html) which uses six cameras to measure trajectory and claims 99.99% accuracy. Speeds are given 0.5 seconds after the ball has left the bowler's hand.

Top speeds rarely top 90mph however, so I'd say that baseball pitchers are probably faster. Hard to compare considering the differences in action, run-up and objective though.

The debate about who was the fastest bowler of all time is just as heated as in baseball.

[carlos_delgado021]

i thank that randy johnson can throw it pretty hard i bet he can get at least 101 mph

[Tigersfan06]

Sorry guys all of you who have been saying the record is 101 or 102 are now wrong, on 6-24-06, Joel Zumaya of the Detroit Tigers threw a 104 MPH fastball against St. Luis at comerica park. so there ya go guys, the radar gun record in the mlb is now 104

[Tarheelfan44]

there was some guy who tried to pitch for the orioles, he had an elongated wrist bone, and he was SUPPPOSEDLY clocked at like 109, he couldn't throw strikes at all though, so i don't know if he ever pitched in the majors. i'll see if i can find his name

[Tarheelfan44]

just looked above, and it was dalkowski

[liamdaly]

Steve Dalkowsky?

[National Pastime 6-4-3]

I remember a game in Rob Dibble's prime where he was clocked at 102.

[Dalkowski110]

Ntxt........

[Brian McKenna]

Nice info Dalkowski110 - welcome to bbf

Personally don't believe that anyone has ever topped 105 but nice read

[tigers527]

before I start I always though J.R. Richard had the guiness thing? But this thread starts with Nolan Ryan, oh well?

Joel Zumaya, has thrown 102 on several radar guns, both broadcast, and stadium. I also saw earlier in the year, Zumaya throw 104 in Toronto on THEIR stadium radar gun. Granted, that could be a mix up in the translation from both french language....to kilometers...to MPH, but the fans in Toronto gasped at the speed.

Down the road I see those Discovery Channel peeps, on Myth Busters, taking on the critical velocity of a baseball, as whenever people claim the 105+ fastball, physicists claim it is impossible....I would be curious as to the results. Although, those folks can look at the true speed of the baseball, as everything is measured, distance and time.

[EvanAparra]

Zumaya, Embree, Wagner, Johnson... Ive seen all these guys clocked at least 102... so i dont know how ryan's 101.9 is the highest...maybe its the highest with an official gun?? i dont get it.

[robert erkkila]

Joel Zumaya the young Tigers reliever regularly is clocked at 99-102 mph in every game he pitches. On at least one occasion this year I remember the radar displaying him reaching 103 mph. I believe he is consistenly the hardest thrower in the major leagues.

[Brooklyn]

Zumaya, Embree, Wagner, Johnson... Ive seen all these guys clocked at least 102... so i dont know how ryan's 101.9 is the highest...maybe its the highest with an official gun?? i dont get it.

yes, he is the fastest with an offifical gun. The guns in the major leagues are unreliable and often purposely set too high

[VIBaseball]

I'd like to know if there are any speed numbers out there on Dick "The Monster" Radatz.

Dalko110 -- maybe you've heard of this other obscure guy whom ex-Mets Joe Christopher mentioned to me as scary fast: Harry "The Flame Thrower" Fanok (1963-64 Cardinals).

[big_papi]

I'm pretty sure It's Ryan at 101. somthing but Daniel Cabrera hit about 100. somthing

[big_papi]

some Old Radars are terrible. I was driving and a radar clocked a tree going 80 MPH

[big_papi]

mistake Cabrera hit 101. somthing

[Dalkowski110]

Yes, I've heard of Harry "Human Flame Thrower" Fanok. I forgot to mention him...whoops! Fanok had a three-quarters delivery, and was another guy obscured in the early 1960's by Dalkowski's speed numbers (his Big League career is rather insignificant). He had control problems, but nothing like Dalkowski or Weik. He probably threw over 100 mph, although there were batters that faced both Fanok and Dalkowski and said that Dalkowski was the faster of the two (notably Ted Williams in Spring Training...he mentions Fanok, although I can't quite recall where, as being blindingly fast). But that leaves the question open as to whether Fanok was faster than Weik. I'm going to have to do some research, but I'll bet he might give Weik a run for his money. As for Radatz, I thought he WAS clocked at 100 mph (rounded up from around 99.8 or 99.9) just before he blew out his arm.

[cordovabob529]

In the second game of the division series today (Tigers at Yankee Stadium), Zumaya was consistantly being clocked at 103mph. A-Rod struck out on a pitch that the announcers called a 101 mph "changeup".




Joel Zumaya the young Tigers reliever regularly is clocked at 99-102 mph in every game he pitches. On at least one occasion this year I remember the radar displaying him reaching 103 mph. I believe he is consistenly the hardest thrower in the major leagues.

[Ursa Major]

Part of the issue is where the clocking occurs -- as the ball comes out of the pitcher's hand (and for how far?) or as nears the plate (at which time it may have slowed down up to 5 MPH).

Also, batters' memories may be affected by a number of factors, including the release point and the pitcher's motion. Y'all heard of "sneaky fast" -- i.e., where the pitcher's delivery seems slow and then he speeds up at the end, so it looks like the ball is coming out at 105? Lefthanded "dart throwers" like Sid Fernandex are notorious for picking up a few faux MPH on their fast balls that way. Recollections from Spring Training are notoriously suspect, as batters' timing often hasn't caught up to the pitchers (who arrive earlier than position players).

I find it interesting that it's alway Ted Williams (or some other top hitter) who's always being quoted as saying that a certain pitcher (a) is the fastest, or (b) has the biggest breaking curve, etc. How come no one quotes a second string catcher who's had the chance to compare the same pitchers as Williams? In other words, some of these tales may be .... apocryphal.

In any case, your scholarship is very much appreciated, Dalkowski. Here's a toast to big Steve.... or maybe we shouldn't. :D

[Solair Wright]

Didn't Mark Wohlers throw a 103mph fastball once or was clocked at 103mph? For example, a fictional Dodgers pitcher, Greg Brule, threw a 101mph heater in 1991 at Dodger Stadium. Of course it didn't happen in real life, but it could happen with a starter. John Smoltz or Greg Maddux never threw >100mph pitches in real life, but some starters once threw one of them heaters. :laugh

[Dalkowski110]

ntxt.......................

[northside]

Ernie Harwell brought up Steve Dalkowski during last nights Tiger's game. He said he broke an umpire's mask.

[Dalkowski110]

That'd be Doug Harvey's mask. Yes, THAT Doug Harvey. Harvey is yet another guy who maintains that Dalkowski was the fastest to ever pitch.

[northside]

I remember hearing of Dalkowski when I was a young kid. I actually got to see Eddie Feigner throw a softball and that was amazing to see. Wish I could have seen Dalkowski.

[Charger567]

I saw Matt Anderson (think that's his name) throwing 103 against the Sox a few years back. It was definately wrong though.

[janduscframe]

Great discussion. I admit to having neaver heard of this Weinek guy. I do remember the name Rittwage though. He didn't much at all for the Tribe.I don't recall anything in regards to him being a flame thrower.Born in 45? I'm doing it from memory.Other flame throwing namers who didn't cut it was a Thomphson who pitched for Cleveland and wound up a bartender in Colorado and Steve Dunning of the Tribe who threw the only shut out in that band box in Sacramento against the Brewers triple A team. Dalk,got any info on those folks? Did Cleveland have a love thing for hard throwers who didn't know how to pitch?

[Dalkowski110]

ntxt..............

[Seattle1]

That's what I was thinking too, probably Zumaya or Johnson.

[Ledfut13]

Just thought I would contribute to your "Fastest Fastball" discussion. I agree that it is impossibe to come up with a definitive answer to who is/was the fastest. There are just too many variables involved, a couple of which have not been brought up yet in this thread.

Here is a link to a very interesting article:

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/bmoynahan/Baseball_Hall_of_Fame/33454

The points made in this article are worth noting. Most modern radar guns take a reading as soon as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. In the case of Nolan Ryan's record setting pitch the reading was taken 10 feet in front of home plate. This makes a HUGE difference, as outlined in the article.

Here is another noteworthy link:

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061018&content_id=1716309&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

It is interesting to see that Joel Zumaya's 103mph pitch was only travelling 93.4 mph when it reached home plate. To put things in perspective, Ryan's pitch was still travelling 102 mph only 10 feet in front of home plate. If Nolan Ryan were to have thrown his "record setting" pitch in 2006, it would probably have shown a reading of 107-108 mph on a modern radar gun (maybe higher) with a reading taken as soon as the ball left his hand. Conversely, if Zumaya had thrown his 103 mph pitch back in '73 or '74 the reading 10 feet in front of the plate would most likely have been in the neighborhood of 95-96 mph. I am only using Ryan as a reference point. I think it is fairly well established that there were others who threw harder. It is scary to imagine what Dalkowski would have registered on the modern radar guns!

Regardless of what FOX or MLB would have you believe (it can only help ratings), Zumaya is NOT throwing the baseball at record-breaking speeds. Unfortunately, millions of fans viewing these games do not know any better and are being duped.

[EvanAparra]

So you are saying that Ryan throws about 6 mph faster than Zumaya? I dont believe that at all.

[Bigrcube]

Correct, the Nolan Ryan pitch was measured at 100.9 mph, by Rockwell International scientists with their own equipment.
It happened in the 9th inning, in a game that he struck out 19 batters for the 3rd time that season.
The Angels ended up losing the game, 1-0 in 11-innings to the Detroit Tigers.

[Dalkowski110]

ntxt........................

[Old Sweater]

After reading this thread I would have to say they are using a steroid juiced radar gun in this years playoff telecasts. Zumaya has had numerous pitches at 103, Verlander a bunch at 101. They had Joe Kennedy at 97 and he topped out at 92 here in Colorado. I always thought J.R. Richard of the Astros had the fastest recorded. Ted Williams said the fastest he faced was a AAA pitcher hands down. Forget the name but Williams said this pitchers arm went dead on a throw to first of all things.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Back in the 1940s, Bob Feller was clocked by a photo cell device at 107 mph. This device predates radar guns and is considered to be more accurate than radar guns. In fact, from my understanding, to this day the U.S. military still uses the photo cell technology because of its precision.

That wouldn't suprise me. Satchel Paige claims that Bob Feller is the hardest pitcher he has ever saw and no human can throw harder then him or something like that. And Satchel Paige was measured at 99.6 mph, by feet traveled per second...

And if the fastest pitch ever is 100.9 by Nolan Ryan, according to wikipedia and Guiness Book of World Records, then they are wrong because Joel Zumaya threw a 103 Mph several times this year.

and 102 consistently.

[EvanAparra]

And if the fastest pitch ever is 100.9 by Nolan Ryan, according to wikipedia and Guiness Book of World Records, then they are wrong because Joel Zumaya threw a 103 Mph several times this year.

and 102 consistently.

On non-official radar guns.

[EdmondsFan#1]

On non-official radar guns.

So.


...

[EvanAparra]

So.


...

So that means it doesn't count.

[Ledfut13]

That wouldn't suprise me. Satchel Paige claims that Bob Feller is the hardest pitcher he has ever saw and no human can throw harder then him or something like that. And Satchel Paige was measured at 99.6 mph, by feet traveled per second...

And if the fastest pitch ever is 100.9 by Nolan Ryan, according to wikipedia and Guiness Book of World Records, then they are wrong because Joel Zumaya threw a 103 Mph several times this year.

and 102 consistently.

Obviously you didn't read the articles I attached links to. Zumaya's 103 mph pitch was timed using a gun that takes the reading as soon as the ball left his hand. Ryan's pitch (100.9) was measured 10 feet from home plate. The FOX pitch tracker showed Zumaya's 103 mph pitch at only 94 mph at home plate.

I also believe the guns used on TV are "juiced". Just like the mammoth home runs of the steroid era, a pitcher throwing 100+ mph gets the fans excited. I agree 100% with the Joe Kennedy example posted earlier.

There are only a handful of guys in the majors who can legitimately touch the high 90's. Yet, come playoff time, it seems every team has 4 or 5 pitchers throwing that hard (and yet they still don't get many strikeouts) according to the TV radar guns.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Obviously you didn't read the articles I attached links to. Zumaya's 103 mph pitch was timed using a gun that takes the reading as soon as the ball left his hand. Ryan's pitch (100.9) was measured 10 feet from home plate. The FOX pitch tracker showed Zumaya's 103 mph pitch at only 94 mph at home plate.

I also believe the guns used on TV are "juiced". Just like the mammoth home runs of the steroid era, a pitcher throwing 100+ mph gets the fans excited. I agree 100% with the Joe Kennedy example posted earlier.

There are only a handful of guys in the majors who can legitimately touch the high 90's. Yet, come playoff time, it seems every team has 4 or 5 pitchers throwing that hard (and yet they still don't get many strikeouts) according to the TV radar guns.


Actually, I heard that it doesn't measure it straight out of the hand if measures it about 4 feet away from the hand, because if tried to measure the ball out of their hand it would probably give you the arm speed instead...

I forget what the two types of Radar guns are called, one is called JUGS and i forgot the other :ughh .

Also, Even though Zumaya doesn't throw 103 he is still the fastest thrower in the Mlb right now because even though those guns might be "juiced" I still don't see any other pitcher hit 103 on those guns.

[EvanAparra]

Ive seen many his at least 102 over the last couple years... two being Embree and Wagner.

[Dalkowski110]

"Forget the name but Williams said this pitchers arm went dead on a throw to first of all things."

That'd be Steve Dalkowski...and that's just one of about half a dozen stories about how he blew it out. (Sometimes it's on a pitch to Hector Lopez, sometimes it's fielding a bunt from Hector Lopez, sometimes it's getting nailed with a liner right back up the middle on the arm by Hector Lopez, sometimes it's all those things with Jim Bouton [who was facing Dalkowski in that Spring Training game], who knows? However, the fact that he had walked Roger Maris for the previous batter would make me think Hector Lopez was the batter he faced...unless the Yankees were really screwing around with their lineup.).

[Ledfut13]

Actually, I heard that it doesn't measure it straight out of the hand if measures it about 4 feet away from the hand, because if tried to measure the ball out of their hand it would probably give you the arm speed instead...

I forget what the two types of Radar guns are called, one is called JUGS and i forgot the other :ughh .

Also, Even though Zumaya doesn't throw 103 he is still the fastest thrower in the Mlb right now because even though those guns might be "juiced" I still don't see any other pitcher hit 103 on those guns.

I think the old gun is called a Ra-Gun, or something like that. You are probably right about the JUGS gun taking a reading about 4 feet away from the hand. It makes sense that you would want the ball speed and not the arm speed. But after the pitcher's stride, release, and an additional 4 feet, the ball is probably still about 50 feet from home plate. That is still quite a bit earlier than where Ryan's pitch was measured (10 feet from home plate). Zumaya's pitch went from 103 mph to just over 94 mph in the time it took the ball to travel from 4 feet after releasing the ball to home plate. That is an 8.5 mph drop. Imagine if Ryan's 101 mph pitch (10 feet from the plate) dropped even 5 or 6 mph from his release point. You are still looking at a mph at release of approximately 106-107 mph.

I do agree with you that Zumaya appears to be the hardest throwing of the current pitchers.

Like any sport, comparisons across generations are pretty hard to make, but are good for stimulating debate...

[iamdiesel18]

I'll toss this name into the mix because I haven't seen it mentioned yet. Does anybody remember a pitcher for the Detroit Tigers names Matt Anderson? He was a #1 overall pick out of Rice University and pitched for the Tigers in the late 1990's I believe. I was at a game at old Tiger Stadium when he pitched against the Baltimore Orioles. In that game he topped 100 mph several times. I also seem to remember that ESPN the magazine did an article on flamethrowing pitchers and he was listed as having thrown 104 mph.

[Dalkowski110]

Anderson was rated throwing both the JUGS gun and the Ra-Gun (the latter being more accurate since the current version gives a reading 15 feet away from home plate as well as just after the pitcher releases it). He hit 104 on the JUGS, but "only" hit 99 on the Ra-Gun 15 feet away. Rittwage, btw, was measured 15 feet away with regards to his 99+ mph pitch. This immediately cancels out Anderson. Joel Zumaya probably throws around 101 mph tops if one is to use the "Ryan Measurement." Bob Feller, IMO, was the fastest Major Leaguer, although compelling cases can be made for Dick Weik, Harry Fanok, Ryne Duren, Eli Grba, Jim Rittwage, Sudden Sam McDowell, and Nolan Ryan. Steve Dalkowski, IMO, was the fastest professional pitcher.

[Old Sweater]

Good ol' Sidd Finch. This article has the Goose and Ryan at 103, not offical tho.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/cover/news/2000/07/24/finch_flash/

[Dalkowski110]

Didn't the original article Sports Illustrated published actually have the first letter of each word about Sidd Finch spell out "April Fool" (just for the benefit of our younger members...Sidd Finch isn't real. He was an April Fool's Day joke conconcted by SI.)

[Old Sweater]

Didn't the original article Sports Illustrated published actually have the first letter of each word about Sidd Finch spell out "April Fool" (just for the benefit of our younger members...Sidd Finch isn't real. He was an April Fool's Day joke conconcted by SI.)

Yeah it did. Forgot about it.

The subhead of the article read: "He's a pitcher, part yogi and part recluse. Impressively liberated from our opulent life-style, Sidd's deciding about yoga —and his future in baseball." The first letters of these words spells out "Happy April Fools Day."

[Crusify_Me]

i duno if this counts but ive seen japanese pitchers kyuji fujikawa hit around 102-105 with his fastball and hes throwing changeups at like 90 miles an hour :S

[bones507]

One thing that has stayed with me for 37 years is standing directly above the bullpen in 1969 and watching and listening to Nolan Ryan throw to Jerry Grote. Man it sounded like one big bang ! Granted i was only 9 at the time but that sound still stays with me like it was yesterday. And to think we gave him up for Jim Fregosi, probably the worst trade of all time.

[Dalkowski110]

The Japanese use the Ra-Gun, to their credit, but the problem is, they measure it the same way pitches are currently measured...from the release point. As for Kyuji Fujikawa, I googled him, found a highlight reel, and it looks a bit like Joel Zumaya. Unfortunately, unlike the Tigers, I doubt the Hanshin coaches will go out of their way to baby his arm and let him proberly develop. :(

EDIT: He doesn't throw as hard as I thought. The Ra-Gun measured him at the "Ryan Distance," at only 92 mph. I think Zumaya has probably reached 100-101 mph on good days at the Ryan Distance.

[elmer]

Interview with Dalkowski

http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/447168.html

[leylandforpresident]

on Friday march 30th during a spring training game Joel Zumaya was clocked at 107mph!!! even with juiced up guns this had to be over 101 MPH, they also had two other guns that clocked at him at 105. Even with some corruption i believe that this is pretty conclusively breaking the record. if he is being clocked at these speeds on multiple guns how can we argue that they can be as far as 10 MPH off.and if they really are juicing the guns up that much what if the public finds out wont this create an uproar. nobody would be so excited about these numbers if they were really that considerably "juiced"

[Bigrcube]

So you are saying that Ryan throws about 6 mph faster than Zumaya? I dont believe that at all.

The Ryan Express just celebrated his 60th birthday on January 31st.
Even at his advanced age, I think he could throw harder than Zumaya TODAY?!
Well at least bull dog him down and give him a noogie just like Robin Ventura?!
.....ahem.....who is Joel Zumaya again?!?!

And let's NOT forget the "Big Train" Walter Johnson.
He was still throwing GAS by young hitters during batting practice
as a coach at age 50.

[robert erkkila]

Joel Zumaya of the Detroit Tigers was regularly clocked at 100-103 mph last year during the regular season. This past week, in an exhibition game against the Atlanta Braves, he was clocked a 107 mph on one of his pitches. Chipper Jones commented after the game that even before he saw the radar gun register 107 mph he knew it was the fastest pitch he had ever seen in his career.

[utterchaos jr.]

Joel Zumaya of the Detroit Tigers was regularly clocked at 100-103 mph last year during the regular season. This past week, in an exhibition game against the Atlanta Braves, he was clocked a 107 mph on one of his pitches. Chipper Jones commented after the game that even before he saw the radar gun register 107 mph he knew it was the fastest pitch he had ever seen in his career.

I was going to say, last year I saw Zumaya go like this or something:

PITCH: 99
PITCH: 96
PITCH: 97
PITCH: 100
PITCH: 99
PITCH: 101
PITCH: 102
PITCH: 99
PITCH: 103
PITCH: 100
PITCH: 98
PITCH: 99

[sportsknowitall7]

Hey you guys i watched a documentary on sportscenter a few years back about a kid who lived up in the mountains. They said he could throw like 125mph but i'd have to see it to believe it. Did anyone else see this documentary? They also said he had a tryout with the mets.

[natsnsoxfan]

Ive heard it was Brian Anderson, the SP for the Royals from a few years back.

[Dalkowski110]

"Joel Zumaya of the Detroit Tigers was regularly clocked at 100-103 mph last year during the regular season. This past week, in an exhibition game against the Atlanta Braves, he was clocked a 107 mph on one of his pitches. Chipper Jones commented after the game that even before he saw the radar gun register 107 mph he knew it was the fastest pitch he had ever seen in his career."

Problem there is that they were clocking the pitches as they left Zumaya's hand. Not the fastest by a long shot...it was blasted out of Bob Feller's hand at 115 (approx) when they clocked him.

"Hey you guys i watched a documentary on sportscenter a few years back about a kid who lived up in the mountains. They said he could throw like 125mph but i'd have to see it to believe it. Did anyone else see this documentary? They also said he had a tryout with the mets."

That was a mockumentary. Made-up guy who everyone has gone along with named Sidd Finch. The guy who portrayed him is an Ohio schoolteacher. I like to call Sidd Finch "the baseball equivalent to Spinaltap."

"Ive heard it was Brian Anderson, the SP for the Royals from a few years back."

You mean Ryan Anderson? Anderson was never clocked at the Ryan Distance, though it was estimated he hit about 100 mph there (which is impressive, but still doesn't beat Nolan Ryan).

[rdowney19]

Didn't Zumaya smoke one at 103 last year against the Yanks in the postseason as well?

[natsnsoxfan]

"Ive heard it was Brian Anderson, the SP for the Royals from a few years back."

You mean Ryan Anderson? Anderson was never clocked at the Ryan Distance, though it was estimated he hit about 100 mph there (which is impressive, but still doesn't beat Nolan Ryan).

Thats who it was. I thought i remember something about him hitting 103.7 or 101.7 or something that topped Ryan's record. I don't remember clearly because it was so long ago though.

[Dalkowski110]

"Didn't Zumaya smoke one at 103 last year against the Yanks in the postseason as well?"

Radar guns were dialed up during the playoffs last year...I remember Billy Wagner hitting 100 mph on almost every pitch.

"that topped Ryan's record."

To top Ryan's record officially, you have to A) be clocked at the Ryan Distance of 50'6" and B) be clocked by a chronograph, not a radar gun. I'll grant you that B is kinda subjective, but A does count. And Anderson's pitches were being timed at about 40-45 feet away from the plate, depending on the kind of radar gun. Oh yeah, and I was wrong...Ryan Anderson was of course the Seattle SP prospect that flopped. It was Matt Anderson who was such a hard thrower.

[FantasyBaseballMafia]

In Order by Fastest Observed Speed
(Listing Has Only The Fastest Known Speed by the Pitcher )

Pitcher
Radar Speed
Date
Location

Mark Wohlers
103.0 mph
1995
Spring Training

Joel Zumaya
103.0 mph
07-04-2006
McAfee Coliseum

Armando Benitez
102.0 mph
05-24-2002
Shea Stadium

Bobby Jenks
102.0 mph
08-27-2005
Safeco Field

Randy Johnson
102.0 mph
07-09-2004
Pacific Bell Park

Matt Lindstrom
102.0 mph
05-16-2007
PNC Park

Robb Nen
102.0 mph
10-23-1997
Jacobs Field

Justin Verlander *
102.0 mph
06-12-2007 †
Comerica Park

Jonathan Broxton *
101.0 mph
06-26-2007
Chase Field

A.J. Burnett
101.0 mph
05-31-2005
PNC Park

Rob Dibble
101.0 mph
06-08-1992
Candlestick Park

Kyle Farnsworth
101.0 mph
05-26-2004
Minute Maid Park

Eric Gagne
101.0 mph
04-16-2004
Pacific Bell Park

Jose Mesa
101.0 mph
05-01-1993
Cleveland Stadium

Guillermo Mota
101.0 mph
07-24-2002
Qualcomm Stadium

Tony Pena
101.0 mph
06-07-2007
AT&T Park

Billy Wagner *
101.0 mph
07-30-2003
Turner Field

Nolan Ryan
100.9 mph
08-20-1974
Anaheim Stadium

Josh Beckett
100.0 mph
10-12-2003
Pro Player Park

Daniel Cabrera
100.0 mph
05-09-2005
Camden Yards

Roger Clemens
100.0 mph
10-10-2001
Yankee Stadium

Bartolo Colon
100.0 mph
10-06-1999
Jacobs Field

Francisco Cordero
100.0 mph
07-07-2004
Jacobs Field

Rich Harden
100.0 mph
05-27-2005
McAfee Stadium

Jorge Julio
100.0 mph
09-16-2004
Skydome

Brandon League
100.0 mph
07-14-2006
Rogers Centre

J.R. Richard
100.0 mph
05-25-1976
Candlestick Park

C.C. Sabathia
100.0 mph
06-28-2002
Jacobs Field

Ben Sheets
100.0 mph
07-10-2004
Miller Park

Rafael Soriano *
100.0 mph
05-04-2007
Turner Field

Derrick Turnbow
100.0 mph
05-27-2005
Miller Park

Kerry Wood
100.0 mph
08-10-2005
Wrigley Field

Pitcher
Radar Speed
Date
Location

* Actual picture of speed taken from the field at top of the chart.
† Took place during a no hitter

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml


GP
www.FantasyBaseballMafia.com
http://wiretap.hipcast.com/rss/fbm_wiretap.xml

[Gregory Pratt]

Pitcher Perfect
Why can't anyone throw a baseball faster than 100 mph?

When baseball's elders swap stories about fireballers, the name that ends the conversation isn't Nolan Ryan or Sandy Koufax. It's one that never appeared on the back of a major-league uniform: Steve Dalkowski. Legend has it that the 5-foot-11-inch, 170-pound lefty threw his fastball well in excess of 100 mph. We don't have an exact number for the same reason Dalkowski, who toiled in the minors in the late 1950s and early 1960s, never made the big leagues: He was too wild to time. When a scout tried to gauge Dalkowski's fastball with a primitive radar gun—a beam of light the width of home plate—the pitcher couldn't hit the target until after his arm got tired.

Steve Dalkowski sounds like a genetic freak, but so is anyone who can throw a baseball 90 mph. What he really represents is a blow to the basic notion of human progress. In almost every measurable physical activity, athletes show improvement over time. Jumpers jump higher and farther, and runners and swimmers go faster. Since the late 1950s, the high-jump world record has improved by more than 10 percent, the 100-meter-dash mark has improved by 5 percent, and swimming's best 100-meter freestyle has dipped 12 percent.

Pitchers, though, don't seem to be getting any faster. Pretty much every generation since the early 1900s has boasted a supposed 100-mph pitcher, from Walter Johnson and Smoky Joe Wood to Bob Feller to Dalkowski to Nolan Ryan. If we stick with speeds registered since modern radar guns became ubiquitous in the 1970s, peak velocity seems to be a shade north of 100. Major League Baseball doesn't keep official records on pitch speeds, but the Guinness Book of World Records credits Ryan with the fastest pitch ever, a 100.9-mph heater from 1974. This article disagrees, crowning Mark Wohlers the radar-gun champ with a 103-mph pitch. (For an explanation of why radar gun readings can be inconsistent, click here.)

Maybe it only looks like the outer limit for pitchers is stable at around 100 mph because we can't consistently and accurately measure minute improvements in speed. When it comes to flamethrowers, after all, it's hard to figure out what's the truth and what's a tall tale. Feller once sent a fastball zooming by a speeding motorcycle. Maybe the ball really was traveling at 104 mph, as the organizers of the stunt claimed. Or maybe not.

Still, according to experts in biomechanics, that 100-mph ceiling isn't an illusion—it's a basic property of human physiology. A pitcher generates momentum by rocking onto his back leg and thrusting forward. After that he rotates his pelvis and upper trunk, then his elbow, shoulder, and wrist. Intuitively, it seems like building up the muscles in the legs, upper body, arm, and shoulder would generate more force and make his arm move faster. The reality: There's a point when more torque doesn't yield a faster pitch. It simply causes tendons and ligaments to snap, detaching muscles from bones and bones from one another. (Tendons connect muscles to bones; ligaments connect bones to each other.)

Glenn Fleisig, a biomechanical engineer who studies pitching at the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Ala., has calculated that about 80 Newton-meters of torque act on an elite pitcher's elbow when he throws a fastball. The ulnar collateral ligament connects the humerus and ulna—two of the bones that come together in the elbow. To test the outer limits of the ligament's strength, Fleisig subjected cadaver elbows to increasing amounts of rotational force. These experiments showed that an average person's UCL snaps at about 80 Newton-meters. Smoky Joe Wood said that he threw so fast he thought his arm was going to fly off. It turns out he wasn't far from the truth.

Another way to test the proposition that ligament fragility limits velocity is to see what happens when pitchers strengthen their muscles. Mike Axe, an orthopedic surgeon and protégé of Fleisig's partner James Andrews, advises pitchers to build up their shoulder muscles by practicing with a weighted glove on their throwing hand. According to Axe, a pitcher can add up 2 to 5 mph to his fastball with this regimen. The potential gains are lower for those who throw fast to begin with, though. Axe has seen pitchers increase their velocity from 84 to 88 mph and from 88 to 91 mph. He's never seen anyone improve from 98 to 100. The chief benefit for these hurlers is that they suffer fewer muscle tears.

Why do sprinters keep getting faster while baseball pitchers seem to have maxed out? Because track athletes don't approach the limits of what human tendons and ligaments can handle. When you run the 100-meter dash, no single stride represents as violent a motion as the arm makes during a single overhand pitch. Sprinters can build up their muscles without worrying that the extra force will rip their ligaments apart—that's why steroid use seems to make sprinters faster but won't help pitchers generate velocity beyond a certain point. (A better reason for a pitcher to take steroids would be to decrease the time it takes to recover between games.)

Ligaments and tendons can get stronger, but at a much slower rate than the muscles that surround them. There are rumors that pitchers who've undergone Tommy John surgery—that is, a replacement of the UCL with a tendon from the hamstring or wrist—can throw harder than they did before having surgery. But any increase in velocity probably has less to do with getting a new superligament than with the strict rehabilitation program Tommy John patients are supposed to follow. The reason pitchers get injured in the first place is that their muscles, tendons, and ligaments weren't as strong as they should have been.

What about growing taller, more massive pitchers? That doesn't necessarily make a difference, either. Small, slightly built pitchers like Dalkowski, the 5-foot-11 Pedro Martinez, and the 5-foot-10 Billy Wagner throw just as hard as giants such as Randy Johnson. The physical principle here is fairly simple. If two levers move at the same speed, the ball released from the longer lever will have more velocity. But as a lever becomes larger, it requires more torque to move. Randy's lever is larger; Wagner's moves more quickly. The trade-off makes their velocity roughly equal.

In the last two decades, baseball managers and GMs have focused less on speed and more on injury prevention. According to Fleisig, whose clinic has diagnosed mechanical problems in professional pitchers since 1990, "[Baseball executives] don't come to me and say make this guy a few miles per hour faster. They say, help this guy stay on the field." Steve Dalkowski should have been so lucky. He blew out his arm fielding a bunt in an exhibition game in 1963, on the eve of his first major-league start.

Why on Earth can't I just submit this article as my post instead of having to waste twenty seconds exing out a "You must submit a message" message and then writing a message? Sheesh.

[Padday]

The fastest I've seen was 112 mph at Safeco field last April. The amazing thing was that both pitchers were throwing 112mph and consistently aswell.

...Hmm. Now come to think about it, I think their pitch speed board was broken.:(

[closer28]

at was at a royals game in 2005 and matt thornton was clocked at 102 i think and then zumaya http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=451491 click on zumaya brings the gas

[Old Sweater]

Why on Earth can't I just submit this article as my post instead of having to waste twenty seconds exing out a "You must submit a message" message and then writing a message? Sheesh.

Should have just posted the link Gregory. That's a good article that I came across once to. It more or less explains the fact that near 100mph you are at the max limit for the human arm. No amount of training or PED shortcuts is going to help you exceed the limit of 100mph by much.



Still, according to experts in biomechanics, that 100-mph ceiling isn't an illusion—it's a basic property of human physiology. A pitcher generates momentum by rocking onto his back leg and thrusting forward. After that he rotates his pelvis and upper trunk, then his elbow, shoulder, and wrist. Intuitively, it seems like building up the muscles in the legs, upper body, arm, and shoulder would generate more force and make his arm move faster. The reality: There's a point when more torque doesn't yield a faster pitch. It simply causes tendons and ligaments to snap, detaching muscles from bones and bones from one another. (Tendons connect muscles to bones; ligaments connect bones to each other.)

[Brian McKenna]

Why on Earth can't I just submit this article as my post instead of having to waste twenty seconds exing out a "You must submit a message" message and then writing a message? Sheesh.

The article is virtually worthless without us knowing its author, date and publication.

[KingSwisher]

The article is virtually worthless without us knowing its author, date and publication.

http://slate.com/id/2116402

[FantasyBaseballMafia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkmckenna
The article is virtually worthless without us knowing its author, date and publication.

http://slate.com/id/2116402



That's a great link, thanks. lots of good links within the link as well

GP
www.FantasyBaseballMafia.com
http://wiretap.hipcast.com/rss/fbm_wiretap.xml

[nolanryan5714]

You can also click the hyperlink in my sig. ;)

I like this thread.

[Seattle1]

Probably Randy Johnson when he was with the Mariners.

[Dalkowski110]

"When a scout tried to gauge Dalkowski's fastball with a primitive radar gun—a beam of light the width of home plate—the pitcher couldn't hit the target until after his arm got tired."

As some of you know, I'm actually writing a book about Steve (my candidate for fastest all time). My research has been fairly extensive...and the above bears absolutely no resemblance to what actually happened when they tried clocking Steve.

[RSAmetsfan]

Does anybody know where to find more information about the Bob Feller story?

I have a bet with an English Cricket lover, who is telling me cricket bowlers are faster than baseball pitchers.


I shouldn't think this bet is still running, but I thought I'd add a bit of cricket info for the records.

The highest electronically measured speed for a ball bowled by any bowler is 100.23mph by Shoaib Akhtar of Pakistan in 2003. A similar speed was claimed for the Australian Jeff Thomson in the 1970s.

Speeds are now mostly measured using a system called Hawkeye info here (http://www.channel4.com/sport/cricket/analyst/hawkeye/about.html) which uses six cameras to measure trajectory and claims 99.99% accuracy. Speeds are given 0.5 seconds after the ball has left the bowler's hand.

Top speeds rarely top 90mph however, so I'd say that baseball pitchers are probably faster. Hard to compare considering the differences in action, run-up and objective though.

The debate about who was the fastest bowler of all time is just as heated as in baseball.

Video of Akhtar's 161.3 km/h delivery here:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4985508181387280461&q=fastest+cricket

[Dalkowski110]

Not fast enough, plus he has a running start. 161.3 km/h=just over 100.2 mph. Also, the bowled cricket ball bounces at a distance no greater than 30 feet from his hand. Nolan Ryan achieved the speed of 100.9 mph with no running start and at a much greater distance away from his hand (50 feet to be precise). Steve Dalkowski likely threw even harder, though his wildness prevented an accurate reading at any one of the three Aberdeen Proving Grounds US Army chronograph tests where he tried getting his fastball through a box-like device just exceeding the width of home plate.

[elmer]

a little on Dalkowski
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/distances.shtml

[Dalkowski110]

Actually, there's A LOT wrong with that article. Steve Dalkowski never faced Ted Williams, for one thing. I've come up with a fairly good idea of where that came from, though: Steve was brought up for evaluation purposes after the 1958 season with Chuck Estrada and Marv Breeding as a non-roster player. All three worked out both before and after games during a series with the Boston Red Sox. Williams did WATCH Steve Dalkowski, but we don't know what kind of comments he made. Orioles scout Walter Youse, who was on hand for one of the games, claimed that Williams merely said "damned if I ever have to face him," though he never specified if it was Steve's speed or wildness. Steve and a back-up catcher named Ralph Lairmore likely conconcted this story some time during the 1959 season; I've actually heard the earliest version told, and you can tell it was meant as a joke.

Steve DID strike out 24 batters once (and also walked 19...occured August 31, 1957 in a 9-8 win over the Bluefield Dodgers. Ray Suto was on the mound for Bluefield and I have the rather jaw-dropping recap and box score), but never walked 28 (the most Steve ever walked in a single game was 20, also in 1957, against the Johnson City Phillies). He's actually going to be 71 on June 3, and has been sober and in New Britain, CT since 1994. Not sure where some of the more recent articles have been getting that was still out in CA or inflating his age.

[Macker]

The story I heard on Williams is that he grabbed a bat and stood in against him in spring training. This was after he was retired and was a spring training instructor.

[Dalkowski110]

"The story I heard on Williams is that he grabbed a bat and stood in against him in spring training. This was after he was retired and was a spring training instructor."

This was Ron Shelton's spin on the story, I believe, after Pat Jordan's accounts of Steve vs. The Splendid Splinter in 1958 and 1959 and then 1960 were disproven. Thing is, after Williams had retired, Steve went to MLB Spring Training only twice: in 1961 and 1963 (Minor League Spring Training was held in Thomasville, GA). Both times, the Red Sox trained in Scottsdale, AZ. And both times, Baltimore trained in Miami, FL. What I've asked both myself and a number of Orioles Minor League managers and other personnel at the time was "what would Williams be doing in FL when his team was training in AZ?" Nobody has come up with a sufficient answer and most of the managers and other personnel I've spoken with are of the opinion that it never happened, though they do tend to stick by Walter Youse's version of the story, which was corroborated by Chuck Estrada and George Henderson (one of Youse's assistants present at the game).

[Calif_Eagle]

"The story I heard on Williams is that he grabbed a bat and stood in against him in spring training. This was after he was retired and was a spring training instructor."

This was Ron Shelton's spin on the story, I believe, after Pat Jordan's accounts of Steve vs. The Splendid Splinter in 1958 and 1959 and then 1960 were disproven. Thing is, after Williams had retired, Steve went to MLB Spring Training only twice: in 1961 and 1963 (Minor League Spring Training was held in Thomasville, GA). Both times, the Red Sox trained in Scottsdale, AZ. And both times, Baltimore trained in Miami, FL. What I've asked both myself and a number of Orioles Minor League managers and other personnel at the time was "what would Williams be doing in FL when his team was training in AZ?" Nobody has come up with a sufficient answer and most of the managers and other personnel I've spoken with are of the opinion that it never happened, though they do tend to stick by Walter Youse's version of the story, which was corroborated by Chuck Estrada and George Henderson (one of Youse's assistants present at the game).

Williams lived in Islamorada, FL in the Florida Keys and did a lot of bonefishing there when he retired. Oriole training camp was in Miami which is apx 100 miles, possibly even less from Islamorada. Who is to say Williams didnt go up there to see old friends or even possibly because he had been told of Dalkowski's speed and wanted to see for himself? It seems not only possible, but very probable, to me that Williams would make what is essentially a very easy day trip to Oriole training camp.

[Dalkowski110]

"Williams lived in Islamorada, FL in the Florida Keys and did a lot of bonefishing there when he retired. Oriole training camp was in Miami which is apx 100 miles, possibly even less from Islamorada. Who is to say Williams didnt go up there to see old friends or even possibly because he had been told of Dalkowski's speed and wanted to see for himself? It seems not only possible, but very probable, to me that Williams would make what is essentially a very easy day trip to Oriole training camp. "

Here's the problem: nobody's seen it. No catcher that ever caught Steve Dalkowski has backed it up. No manager or coach from any Spring Training Steve attended had ever heard of it until Pat Jordan published it in the 1970's. The oldest account was heard in 1960, told by both Steve and Ralph Lairmore in 1960 Spring Training with Stockton (heard it from multiple players, too), and varied considerably from the 1970's version Jordan published. No other player saw it or heard about any kind of aftermath, and I've spoken to multiple regulars from literally every team, including Spring Training squads, that Steve played for. Steve's own accounts of it have varied so widely that there's no consistency from one telling to the other. I can't arrive at any conclusion other than it was made up in 1960 Spring Training.

[westsidegrounds]

. He's actually going to be 71 on June 3, and has been sober and in New Britain, CT since 1994. Not sure where some of the more recent articles have been getting that was still out in CA or inflating his age.

How's he doing?

[Dalkowski110]

Pretty well physically. I know they had him in a wheel chair for the first pitch at Dodger Stadium, but that's because he walks with a bit of a limp (I'm not sure why) and I don't think they wanted him exacerbating that on the uneven ground of the field. Mentally? Well, he has alcohol-induced dementia. It's a pretty lousy definition of the malady because usually (and I've had this experience with literally over four dozen ballplayers who have asked me in responding to my letter) when someone thinks of "dementia," they think of senile dementia. In that malady, you cannot recover any memories. It's like your memory just sort of fades away and can never be restored. But alcholic dementia, when caught and treated properly, allows the restoration of memories. Not the full restoration, mind you, but at least a partial restoration. Steve's memory is better than it was when I first met him. He can now identify ballplayers--his teammates, mostly, but some opponents--from pictures as opposed to merely names. And something that neither myself nor Steve's sister, Patti Cain, can understand: if you give Steve the name of a ballplayer he played with or against, he can remember in almost exacting detail the following:
-Handedness (batter or pitcher)
-Pitch repertoire if a pitcher and a sort of spray chart if a hitter.
-Any old nicknames the ballplayers picked up (for example, Steve called Dave McNally "Montana Dave," John Miller "The Mule," Frank Bertaina "Frankie Boy," Lloyd Fourroux "The King," Nielsen Cochran "Crazy Nellie," Ellis Olson "Olie," John Dewald "Farmer John," Larry Clayton "Cotton" or "Cot," Pat Gillick was "Books," "Pinky" for Pat McMahon, and "Soup" for Paul Campbell) and any eccentricities his teammates had.
-Generally where the ballplayer was from and what Steve thought of him if he was a teammate. If not, it's almost like he's reading old scouting reports on hitters or opposing pitchers when he does this.

[westsidegrounds]

Did a google search & found a profile of SD on a site called "Bad Sports". Not a promising name but the article seemed pretty good. Plus it had a followup by a guy in the minors who was assigned to stand in a batting cage for 20 minutes against Dalkowski while Earl Weaver studied Steve's motion. (An assignment like that pretty much tells you the organization does NOT envision you in its future plans, I guess!)

I wonder if anyone thought to film the guy in his prime. Being no physical marvel, as such (near-sighted, 5'11", 170 lbs) he must have had just perfect untutored natural mechanics to throw that fast. Priceless study material.

[Dalkowski110]

"Not a promising name but the article seemed pretty good."

Filled with errors. Herm Starrette's stuff on there is basically all that's accurate. PM me if you want details. Also, the guy that faced Steve was facing him in 1964 (and he never played pro ball, either). Steve had partially torn his MCL in 1963 and lost a good deal of speed off his fastball by 1964. He threw hard, but generally wasn't considered the hardest thrower on his own team in Elmira in 1964. Frank Bertaina and Steve Cosgrove (especially) were considered to throw somewhat harder by then, and Cosgrove struggled violently with his control, as well. When Steve was sent down to Stockton that year, he again found himself the third hardest thrower on the team after Ed Barnowski and Ron Kotick. Makes you wonder about that story a bit...

"I wonder if anyone thought to film the guy in his prime."

The US Army did on a filmreel camera from center field, as a security precaution in 1958 while he was throwing at Aberdeen Proving Grounds' baseball field. Sadly, nobody knows if the film is still viewable and while I'm taking measures to get a copy of the film via a FOIA request and an inquiry into the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Museum as well as the US Army Historical Section...well...I got a lot of red tape to cut through. The Orioles DID film Steve while he was batting, oddly. You can see him as number 41 in the 1961 documentary Paul Richards, Big League Manager. Supposedly, Steve was also filmed warming up for that documentary. Unfortunately, it wound up on the cutting room floor and nobody knows where the footage is. It's also probable that Steve was filmed for the 1962 film The Orioles in Action while training with Rochester. Again, however, absolutely nobody knows where that footage is and believe me, I've tried and I know a good friend who has tried. The Army film is the best hope at this point, IMO, although the 1960 Visalia A's televised all their home games and supposedly saved all their film. Nobody knows where that is, but my guess would be one of the Visalia TV or radio stations...it would be easier to find than the Orioles or Red Wings footage.

[westsidegrounds]

Ah, Well so much for the internet.

As for Teddy Ballgame, if he'd faced this guy he would have mentioned it, in a letter, a conversation, an interview - how many interviewers asked him who the fastest pitcher he ever saw was? All of them, is how many, I'm certain. Drive all the way to see the guy and never mention him? No way. If he didn't talk about facing Steve Dalkowski, he didn't face him.

[Dalkowski110]

"how many interviewers asked him who the fastest pitcher he ever saw was? All of them, is how many, I'm certain. Drive all the way to see the guy and never mention him? No way. If he didn't talk about facing Steve Dalkowski, he didn't face him."

You nailed it. I also have a very good friend who asked John Henry Williams before he passed away if this ever happened and he said other than his father maybe seeing him throwing and not even getting his name (which he said was a possibility), he said no, it absolutely did not happen. Interestingly, you DO have a number of Major League hitters while they were in the Majors in Spring Training that did face Steve and talked about it...Al Kaline, Roger Maris, Elston Howard, Moose Skowron, Tommy Davis, Maury Wills, Dee Fondy, Don Hoak, Alex Grammas...but they're usually never cited. Gil Hodges is also known to have faced Steve in 1958 during a Spring Training game (someone had come in for Snider, however, and he did not face Steve), though took his opinions away to his grave. Carl Furillo faced him in the same game but again, was never asked about it.

[Mister_D]

To top Ryan's record officially, you have to A) be clocked at the Ryan Distance of 50'6" and B) be clocked by a chronograph, not a radar gun.

What kind of chronograph? I found it was a LASER doppler-effect device.


any one of the three Aberdeen Proving Grounds US Army chronograph tests where he tried getting his fastball through a box-like device just exceeding the width of home plate.

I understand you are writing or wrote a book about Dalkoswki, so, surely you are pretty well documented. I opened this thread on Documenting clocking intents 1912-1974 to distill the truth from all what can be found on the speed of the pitchers of the past. You may want to check it out, and possibly, if you care, share something of what you know and help set the record straight.

What I've got is that Dalkowski was tested once with a sky screen chronograph.

[Dalkowski110]

I stand corrected...it was indeed a Sky Screen only.

[rhuff1119]

Dalkowski110: Did you ever track down any footage of Steve?

He's always been a favorite of mine, also. Have his rookie card and a couple of original photos of him during his playing days -- also and old Elmira Pioneers program with him in it.

One more question: Did I understand you correctly in your post to say that any footage of Steve in the 1962 film "The Orioles in Action" was also cut? I see that this is readily available on DVD.