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View Full Version : Lincecum pitching at 1000fps , Pretty cool!



AL_DAD
04-13-2011, 05:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PBLcp9tWM

Dirtberry
04-14-2011, 11:42 AM
This is way cool and shows the proper “inside of vertical” axipetal top half pitching motion that eliminates “forearm bounce” that destroys your UCL with the traditional pitching motion.
Watch how he uses his Latissimus dorsi to pitch the baseball instead of his pectoralis major that all traditional pitchers use to pull the baseball along causing many more injurious problems with it.
This is how players should learn to throw and pitch a baseball.
Now if he stayed taller by striding shorter and to the glove arm side of the field driveline and got the baseball up to ball driveline height when his glove foot touched down it would be perfect!
This unconventional powerful inwards rotation of the humerus in the vertical position and pronation drive is what Dr.Marshall teaches. Great video.

songtitle
04-14-2011, 11:48 AM
This is way cool and shows the proper “inside of vertical” axipetal top half pitching motion that eliminates “forearm bounce” that destroys your UCL with the traditional pitching motion.


Please provide a link to the study that says that "forearm bounce" produces UCL injuries.

Here is Kevin Jacob. He looks like a Marshall guy. It seems to me that he has forearm bounce and forearm flyout just like everyone else. Actually, at foot plant, he is the same, except for the arm angle.
http://www.efastball.com/images/posted/pitching-rh-kevin-jacob-ga-tech2-marshall-guy-2011-03-26.300at60fps.gif

BamaYankee
04-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Dirt, I love your posts! I can't really understand them, but they leave me a little dizzy. Like good poetry. Medical anatomy poetry. :-)

Coach C
04-14-2011, 02:40 PM
This is way cool and shows the proper “inside of vertical” axipetal top half pitching motion that eliminates “forearm bounce” that destroys your UCL with the traditional pitching motion.

Really cool Vid Al Dad! Dirt, your the first person I thought of after seeing it. I'm a little dizzy.

Dirtberry
04-15-2011, 10:11 AM
Songtitle,


“Please provide a link to the study that says that "forearm bounce" produces UCL injuries”

There is plenty, start at Dr.Marshalls site since he coined the phrase and many more or go to his new U-tube channel drmikemars and watch “Research begins” that was motivated by Dr. Joel Adams (ortho) study on comparative x-rays in youth injuries way back in the mid 60’s where he took hundreds of x-rays and pitch type data that was the first warning about supination (Curves Sliders and some fastballs) and the way the arm works during the traditional pitching motion or just go to ASMI and read their research into maximum external shoulder (actually humeral outwards) rotation newtons forces to get your answers. I could go on and on but I’ll let you do the work!


“He looks like a Marshall guy”

Only in his arm vector from the start of the acceleration phase that dictates his use of his Lats as the primary mover and allowing him to pronate better. He needs to stay straighter, taller and rotate 180 degrees instead of 100 degrees from his excessive back bend and anchored traditional finish.


“It seems to me that he has forearm bounce and forearm flyout just like everyone else”

Seems is apropos for you apparently? He has very little forearm bounce! He has horizontal bounce that protects his UCL because he has his forearm laid back already to start the acceleration phase which contracts the pronator flexors in his forearm that overlies the UCL that pulls the Ulna towards the Radius protecting the UCL through contraction. If he had performed with a lower Humerus 7/8’s or lower he would have contracted his supinator flexors that pull the Ulna away from the Radius and stresses the UCL. He has no forearm flyout! He has forearm “flyup” that produces what Marshall calls “inside of vertical” forearm vector. It’s as plain as voodoo to me, maybe now that I have explained it better for you, you can pull those needles out of that doll.


“Actually, at foot plant, he is the same, except for the arm angle.”

The difference is he gets his forearm to supinate on the way up the backside that he has to fight hard to get done because of his improper over early rotation. If he kept his pendulum swing strait and above the field driveline and continuously moving up to ball driveline height he would probably not plucked that batter.

BamaYankee,


“I can't really understand them, but they leave me a little dizzy”

I have found.that curiosity is the only cure for this dizziness.

Chris O'Leary
04-15-2011, 10:15 AM
He has no forearm flyout! He has forearm “flyup” that produces what Marshall calls “inside of vertical” forearm vector.

His arm flies up and not out because his shoulders are tilted so much and because he throws from a higher arm slot.

Turn your monitor on its side and you will see that this is the case.

There are studies out there that say that this may be safer, but not for the reasons that Marshall implies.

P.S. Lincecum's still got a major timing problem that puts his shoulder and elbow at risk, although his velocity drop suggests that his shoulder may go first.

P.P.S. Lincecum is the posterchild for hip/shoulder separation, which Marshall says is a no-no. IOW, it's ridiculous for Marshall to claim Lincecum for his own.

dominik
04-15-2011, 10:40 AM
@Dirt
Marshall criticized Lincecum a few times for his forearm bounce.

now you say he likes him. did marshall change his mind or did timmy change his mechanics?

In this vid he critizises timmy's bounce. he also criticizes his reverse rotation.
he likes his pronation though
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3990517

BTW: great video to watch. here he explains his stuff without all the latin terms:D.

Dirtberry
04-15-2011, 12:22 PM
Chris O’Leary,


”There are studies out there that say that this may be safer, but not for the reasons that Marshall implies”

Rather than lie about what a study says about what Marshall has said, why don’t you show us the study that says this or explain why what he says are bad reasons.
Your continual blanket statements with no explanation makes you look foolish.


”P.S. Lincecum's still got a major timing problem that puts his shoulder and elbow at risk, although his velocity drop suggests that his shoulder may go first.”

The more pronation forwards “axis presentation” on the ball then the slower it will go but gains in deception from movement outweighs velocity.


” Lincecum is the posterchild for hip/shoulder separation”

Until you understand that all this early separation happens during the humeral/forearm transition phase and not during the acceleration phase you will always get this wrong.
All pitchers even with the traditional pitching motion bring their shoulders and hips along together during the acceleration phase.


“which Marshall says is a no-no”

Only because it makes you pendulum swing move off the field drive line and causes unnecessary oblique injuries caused during the transition phase that takes valuable time to recover from while at the same time atrophies your previous fitness.
Remember Marshall is the one who taught you what the kinetic chain was and how force is carries from joint to joint, of course he believes in slight separation during the acceleration phase, how could he not, he has taught this at the university level as a professor in kinesiology. You on the other hand are a rank novice telling and expert how it is done, talk about no-no’s.


“it's ridiculous for Marshall to claim Lincecum for his own”

It’s even more ridiculous that you claim he has! Rather than lie about it why don’t you show us where he claims this?

Dominic,


“Marshall criticized Lincecum a few times for his forearm bounce”

This was long before he witnessed any high speed video of Lincecum which makes it impossible to really evaluate ballistic movements.


”now you say he likes him. did marshall change his mind “

We provided him with a high speed video a few months ago that has been floating around for a couple of years. Through his teaching and this video I knew Lincecum was closer than anybody else since Juan Marichal to what he wanted and where he wanted the acceleration phase to start from. Steve Sullivan sent him the video and Marshall re-evaluated it and saw that Lincecum performed “horizontal bounce” from “inside of vertical” that allows him to switch from a pectoral drive to a lat drive and restated that he had lesser injurious (UCL) mechanics than he had originally thought and has explained this in an e-mail at his site. Here he states this “However, recent high-speed videos I received of Tim Lincecum and Chris Young show that, although inappropriately, both engage their Latissimus Dorsi muscle” in letter #1353 questions/answers 2010 “Mr. Lincecum has his pitching elbow and pitching hand end up at driveline height without any 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce” ” It appears that Mr. Lincecum avoids the 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce' that tears the connective tissue fibers in the Ulnar Collateral Ligament.” “Mr. Lincecum is the first baseball pitcher other than me and the baseball pitchers I trained with my Wrong Foot body action; Slingshot glove and pitching arm actions drill and other drills over thirty years ago that engages his Latissimus Dorsi muscle.”
I believe there are a few others but we need high speed video to know .
Here is that video he witnessed, this new video is even better and I hope he see’s it.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/dirtberry/baseball/Lincecum250FPSstopplantInforwFRe-1.gif

Witness how he uses up his separation during the Humeral/forearm transition phase before 130 and then when he starts his acceleration phase at 130 the hips and shoulders are in alignment!!!!!


“did timmy change his mechanics?”

Timmy has been experimenting and throwing some supinated pitches that will degrade his glenno humeral ligaments that will produce lesser velocity in his fastballs.


”he also criticizes his reverse rotation”

This makes Timmy fight hard to get back to strait to then be able to pitch towards the plate. His Humeral/forearm vector eliminates much of the injurious centripetal actions and why Timmy is not traditional.


“great video to watch. here he explains his stuff without all the latin terms”

He needs a special one hour show where he can explain in detail what needs to be done instead of these little fast inadequate shows where he can’t explain what is happening and the fixes!!!!!!!!

Chris O'Leary
04-15-2011, 01:16 PM
Chris O’Leary,

Rather than lie about what a study says about what Marshall has said, why don’t you show us the study that says this or explain why what he says are bad reasons.

Way to dodge the question.

jdfromfla
04-16-2011, 06:42 AM
On another note...:think:
In my opinion, one of the most important things both he and his dad learned early was, at this arm slot, the head has to get out of the way in order to be accurate. The stillness of his head is to me, is the key factor to what allows him not to be a right handed Mitch Williams.

songtitle
04-16-2011, 08:51 AM
the head has to get out of the way in order to be accurate.

You lost me there. What do you mean?

jdfromfla
04-16-2011, 09:25 AM
Notice how he immediately gets his head in position and it is still throughout? Head violence is a major flaw (I've heard many scouts comment in a very negative way about it..some even dq'ing a kid just because of it) and with a very hi arm slot, to get the arm through with proper timing the head has to get out of the way, TL "sets" his head 1st thing, then it's still for his delivery and it pays off big time.

Dirtberry
04-16-2011, 10:01 AM
Jdfromfla,

Great read JD, he pre-set tilt his head just before the start of the Humeral/forearm transition phase then it moves a little more with his shoulder girdle tilt just before the start of the acceleration phase and is in place and still during the acceleration phase. This shows as ASMI has said that it does not matter if your head is tilted when it comes to percentage of strikes to balls .

I have found that when my clients will stay tall with their heads when I ask them to stay tall with their torso’s that they gain considerable velocity when I ask them to tilt the head further.

Dirtberry
04-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Here is Dr.Marshalls evaluation of the video and Lincecums mechanics.

Thank you.

I always enjoy analyzing high-speed film of baseball pitchers.

Unfortunately, whoever took this high-speed video did not understand orthogonal views. That is, to properly evaluate baseball pitching mechanics, we need to see the side views and front views at right angles to each other and the pitching mound.

In addition, we need to see the entire body. We can only guess when Mr. Lincecum's glove foot landed.

Nevertheless, this video confirms what I saw in the previous video of Mr. Lincecum.

01. Mr. Lincecum turns his back toward home plate.

Therefore, he is destroying the menisci in his pitching knee.

02. Mr. Lincecum has his pitching foot parallel with the pitching rubber and uses his Tensor Fascia Latae muscle to move his body toward home plate.

Therefore, Mr. Lincecum does the 'sideways split' that will lengthen the medial collateral ligament and grind down the lateral side of the Femur bone in his pitching knee. The 'sideways split' also unnecessarily stresses Mr. Lincecum's Oblique Internus Abdominis and Adductor Brevis muscles.

03. Mr. Lincecum takes the baseball out of his glove with the palm of his pitching hand on top of the baseball.

Therefore, he has 'Late Pitching Forearm Turnover.'

04. As best I could determine, Mr. Lincecum's glove foot lands when his pitching forearm is about 30 degrees above horizontal during his 'Late Pitching Forearm Turnover.'

Typically, in this situation, 'traditional' baseball pitchers would 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce' this pitching forearm. However, Mr. Lincecum uniquely avoids the 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce.'

To avoid the 'Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce, Mr. Lincecum immediately raises his pitching upper arm to vertically beside his head and turns the back of his pitching upper arm to face toward home plate.

Therefore, in the same way that I teach my baseball pitchers, Mr. Lincecum horizontally bounces his pitching forearm and engages his Latissimus Dorsi muscle to powerfully inwardly rotate his pitching upper arm.

05. As the video clearly shows, Mr. Lincecum contracts his Triceps Brachii muscle to powerfully extend his pitching elbow and contracts his Pronator Teres muscle to powerfully pronate his pitching forearm.

06. However, the excessive length of his glove foot stride forces Mr. Lincecum to also powerfully bend forward at his waist.

Therefore, with every bend over, Mr. Lincecum is destroying the L5-S1 intervertebral disk in his lower back.

07. That, during his recovery phase, Mr. Lincecum raises his pitching leg over his head means that Mr. Lincecum does not have both feet on the ground when the baseball crosses home plate.

Therefore, he is defenseless against a well-placed line drive back at him.

In conclusion, while I prefer a pendulum swing to driveline height, I love Mr. Lincecum's pitching arm action once he starts the baseball toward home plate.

Conversely, Mr. Lincecum' body action does nothing to increase his release velocity or consistency and will destroy his pitching hip, pitching knee, lower back and glove knee. If Mr. Lincecum were a taller, heavier guy, then he would already have problems in these joints.

Tewks
04-17-2011, 07:49 PM
Dirt, I have been reading your posts, I've watched your youtube channel and I've been checking out Marshall's material. I was also in indy spring training with Sparks in 2006. Never got to stand in against him, but it was interesting to watch. I would like to discuss the use of the word "destroy." People abuse their joints. Overhand throwing isn't kind on the body. How do we know that each athlete is destroying their knee, back, shoulder, etc? What kind of strength & conditioning and injury prevention protocols can decrease the destroying.

The pure Marshall mechanics are gross to watch compared to conventional mechanics. Although, what people are taught and what elite pitchers do are not the same. After reading an article from 2007 (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-marshall051007), I wonder if Marshall is more open to hybrid approaches now.

I look forward to further discussion.

Dirtberry
04-17-2011, 10:47 PM
Tewks,

I moved to the Marshall hybrid thread.