Albert Belle

[pretorius]

I have only been here a few days and this is a second thread. I feel as if I was invited into a home and made two trips to the fridge w/o asking. I am going to hold off on new threads but I am very curious about the hall perspectives of Albert Belle.

To me Albert reaks of Kirby Pucket. W/o question one of the best players in baseball who had a surefire hall career cut short by injury. I do not count attitide as a requisite for the hall. If the hall's goal is to contain the best players who ever played then I do not see how Albert cannot be included.

His power stats are amazing.

[The Commissioner]

I have only been here a few day and this is a second thread. I feel as if I was invited into a home and made two trips to the fridge w/o asking.

Please don't feel that way. You are welcome to ask anything you'd like here and your input is definitely welcome. Don't let the passion that many of our members here possess strike you as abrasiveness. We certainly don't mean to come off that way.

Concerning Belle, this has been discussed several times before, but I have to say, that I certainly wholeheartedly agree with you. Belle definitely had a Hall of Fame career and should eventually go in there. Whether he ever will or not, however, is a completely different matter.

[four tool]

I'm not sure Belle had a hall of fame career, but I'm not sure he didn't either. The 9 consecutive 100+ BIs are maybe enough by themselves to get him him. But if he's in, than Palmiero should be also, same reasons, SL and BI.

[Roody]

I doubt he makes it in.

[Brad Harris]

I'm not sure Belle had a hall of fame career, but I'm not sure he didn't either. The 9 consecutive 100+ BIs are maybe enough by themselves to get him him. But if he's in, than Palmiero should be also, same reasons, SL and BI.

That's kind of silly. The one isn't really comparable to the other. Belle was great for half a career (and entirely missed the other half), Palmeiro has been near great for almost twice as long. Palmeiro ought to be a shoo-in. Belle's case merits more consideration. The final analysis:

Belle merits induction.
Palmeiro induction.

The one has little to do with the other.

I don't forsee the same people who flocked towards Puckett's camp doing the same for Belle. They'll be betraying their own prejudices by not doing so.

[tonjes]

didn't albert belle admit to using steroids during his career?

[catcher24]

I agree with Chancellor. Palmeiro, at this point and with the numbers he has put up, has to go in. I think if people look at Belle with an unprejudiced eye, he goes in too. He put up HUGE numbers until he had to quit due to a degenerative disease. He is still the ONLY player in history to get 50 doubles and 50 HR's in the same season. His 162 game average over 12 seasons was 31 2b's; 40 HR's; 130 RBI; 103 runs. Career OPS+: 143 (for comparison - Hank Aaron is at 155). He blows Kirby Puckett away in almost all categories. Kieby was a much nicer man (or so we thought), and Albert was a total jerk, but his numbers are very impressive. He will eventually get my vote for the BBFHOF, but probably not the baseball writers' votes.

[leecemark]

--Was Albert Belle a Hall of Fame quality player - yes.
--Will Albert Belle be elected to the Hall of Fame - no.
--Belle was a great hitter in his prime, but didn't play long enough to hit milestone career numbers. He was one of the best players in the game at his peak, but definately never THE best. He has a legitimate Hall case, but not quite one that says you HAVE to vote for him.
--In regards to the comparison between Belle and Pucket; Belle was the better hitter, but perhaps not as good an all around player. Puckett was a Gold Glove CF, while Belle was an okay LF. More importantly for Belle's election chances, Puckett was one of the best liked players in the game while Albert was probably the least liked.
--I think the chances that the BWAA will elect Albert Belle are extremely slim. He is a likely VC choice when his personality has been largely forgotten and his stats are viewed more objectively.
--As for getting my BBF vote, it depends how deep we go as a group. I think he is roughly equivilent to Jim Rice. There are alot of LF between the Musial/Williams/Yaz/Simmons group we have elected and the Belle/Rice class. If we eventually get down to actual Hall standards he'll get my vote. If we remain more exclusive, he won't. Puckett ranks much higher on my CF list than Belle on my LF list and will get my vote either way, so I guess I couldn't get too upset if the BWAA goes the same way.

[DoubleX]

He was surly, crude, and truculent with the media, but after Bonds, Griffey, and maybe Frank Thomas, Belle was the best player of the 90's, and would still be pounding away if not for his debilitating hip. Will he make it to the Hall, or will his off-the-field antics obscure his great career on the field? Even if that isn't the case, did he do enough to even merit Hall status?

[dgarza]

HOF merit? - Yes, I think so in most ways
will he make it? - if he does, it will be an up-hill battle, probably via VC

if he does make it, can it read "Joey"? Pretty please?

[abacab]

The Hall of Fame can induct him alongside Dick Allen.

They'll set the record for "poorest attendance ever at a Hall of Fame induction ceremony."

[santotohof]

I did a similar post some months ago.Like him or not for his career he is right at the top. Over a ten year period he rivals Foxx,Gherig and company. I love Richie Allen( I liked him better before he became a Dick) and think he should be in as well but if he gets in he should be holding the door for "Joey"

[The Commissioner]

He certainly deserves to be in there, but I can't see the writers voting him in anytime soon.

[micsmith]

Why has the official Hall of Fame website let off Albert Belle as a future eligible inductee? He's got to be one of the top players eligible for the next election. Or maybe he's not eligible and that's why he's not listed on their website?

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/future_elections.htm

[Captain Cold Nose]

Why has the official Hall of Fame website let off Albert Belle as a future eligible inductee? He's got to be one of the top players eligible for the next election. Or maybe he's not eligible and that's why he's not listed on their website?

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/future_elections.htm
Good question. Probably an oversight on the webmaster's behalf. Did you ask them?

[julusnc]

Looking over Albert's numbers he and Dick Allen were almost the same player.

IMHO Belle and Allen should one day be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame but Allen should get the edge considering the era and position he played.

More Thoughts?

[RuthMayBond]

Allen had a higher OPS+ over more plate apps. He should go before Joey

[micsmith]

I did not ask why Belle was left off.

[Captain Cold Nose]

That's ok. I did.

[mac195]

WARP3 shows them (Belle and Allen) to be about the same career value. Win Shares likes Allen much better. In fact, judging by win shares per plate apperance, Dick Allen is an all-time great. The only post integration players ahead of him are Mantle, Williams, Bonds, Mays and Musial.

[julusnc]

Shame Dick Allen could not have been with better teams and been in a better frame of mind during his playing career.

[dreifort]

If Albert Belle gets in the Hall...it's a sham!

WTF is Gil Hodges!?! ...and he was f'n loyal to his team, no demands for privacy from the media or more money. And his career stats are better than Belle.

..and FYI, a player has to be out of the league 5 yrs to be able to get on the ballot, correct? technically, he's still on the Orioles roster until this yr.

[julusnc]

I have to disagree Belle was a better player than Hodges.

Belle has been retired since 2000.

[Aegis]

Yeah...I'm no fan of Belle, but Hodges doesn't really stack up to him stat-wise, other than strikeout rate. All Hodges ever led the league in was games played on two occasions. Belle led in HR once, RBI thrice, and slugging twice.

[julusnc]

Dont get me wrong I liked Gil Hodges as much as any Dodgers fan.

Hodges played for 18 seasons.Belle played for 12 seasons.

[Aegis]

Dont get me wrong I liked Gil Hodges as much as any Dodgers fan.

Hodges played for 18 seasons.Belle played for 12 seasons.

Which makes ink scores of 2/128 look even funnier next to 28/137.

[J W]

Ah yes, my little franchise killer, Albert Belle...

I'm probably one of the biggest supporters of Dick Allen here. That would necessitate my support of Belle, I suppose. But it's a very interesting predicament that puts me in. Belle has to be my least favorite Oriole, EVER. Well, while he was with the team anyway... Mike Mussina ripped my heart out to he's really my least favorite.

But all that said, I may have to endorse him for the HOF. Even with so many other sluggers pounding the ball, he was consistently top five in all of MLB. Though he doesn't have the HR-title streak that Ralph Kiner does, I like to compare him to Belle as well. And it isn't like his personality drove him from baseball; he had a degenerative injury.

Allen/Belle/Kiner are all in that cut-short boat of the greatest sluggers in history. So I'll bite the bullet and say yes to Albert Belle; he was capable of being part of a successful team (see: Cleveland), despite being a big part of the O's collapse after they got rid of Palmeiro and Alomar. Just expect me to find every other viable candidate to vote for first. :p

[Aegis]

All in all, if I support Puckett, I have to give a good look at Belle. His numbers are inflated due to the era, but he still lead the league in slugging twice, OPS once, runs once, total bases three times, doubles once, home runs once, RBIs three times, and extra base hits three times. It doesn't matter what era you're in--when you lead the league, you lead the league. His injury wounds his stats, but I'll give him some benefit of the doubt on it.

He's still behind other personal choices of mine, however.

[cubbieinexile]

Here is a question. How many people here believe that if a player used drugs to enhance his skills he should not be allowed into the hall? And then for all those who believe they should not, do you believe that Albert should go in?

[Aegis]

Here is a question. How many people here believe that if a player used drugs to enhance his skills he should not be allowed into the hall? And then for all those who believe they should not, do you believe that Albert should go in?

If you mean any drugs, then we have to kick out Mays for using an amphetamine variant, and I'm not willing to be that hardline.

[J W]

good one... my answers are "questionable" and "yes". I haven't gotten any hint whatsoever that Belle was a user; IMO he was just a big man.

[dreifort]

here's a 2nd question. Would Belle have lasted as long as he did without the DH?

another player with no Defense and a big bat. :ughh

granted he had an arm, but he had to to make up for the time it took him to get the ball in his glove.


Hodges was a under-rated superb fielding firstbaseman. And how many career .260 hitters, career 100 HRs are in the Hall JUST becuase of their defense. *sigh

[dgarza]

And how many career .260 hitters, career 100 HRs are in the Hall JUST becuase of their defense. *sigh
the gymnastics Hall of Fame :rolleyes:

[RuthMayBond]

here's a 2nd question. Would Belle have lasted as long as he did without the DH?

another player with no Defense and a big bat. :ughh

granted he had an arm, but he had to to make up for the time it took him to get the ball in his glove.


Hodges was a under-rated superb fielding firstbaseman. And how many career .260 hitters, career 100 HRs are in the Hall JUST becuase of their defense. *sighAparicio, Ozzie & the Cubs' trio and Reese?

[dgarza]

Aparicio, Ozzie & the Cubs' trio?
don't forget Schalk and his 11 HRs! - at least Ozzie outslugged him

[dreifort]

either you hit 40+ HRs and hit .300+ or you are a great fielder....but God forbid you do both...then you might get snubbed by the HoF. :grouchy

[RuthMayBond]

don't forget Schalk and his 11 HRs! - at least Ozzie outslugged himBehind the plate, and in that era, that's probably better than Ozzie

[RuthMayBond]

either you hit 40+ HRs and hit .300+ or you are a great fielder....but God forbid you do both...then you might get snubbed by the HoF. :grouchySay what :confused:

[Aegis]

Say what :confused:

I think he's talking about Hodges, how he was a good fielder but with "not enough" power for the hall.

Another tab for Aparicio is that he led the league in steals for nine years. And that's with just a .311 OBP.

[RuthMayBond]

I think he's talking about Hodges, how he was a good fielder but with "not enough" power for the hall.Funny we should require power from a 1B

[dgarza]

Behind the plate, and in that era, that's probably better than Ozzie
ignoring the position, Ozzie did slug lower than avg more so than Schalk, but just by about .8 of a percent,

still , Schalk's 162 game HR avg is just 1

[cubbieinexile]

The point of my question was that it seemed to me that a lot of people who are apalled at Bonds because of steroids seem to be okay with Belle and his known cheating. Belle was a cheater every single one of his bats was corked and everybody knew it.

[RuthMayBond]

The point of my question was that it seemed to me that a lot of people who are apalled at Bonds because of steroids seem to be okay with Belle and his known cheating. Belle was a cheater every single one of his bats was corked and everybody knew it.The double standard is :grouchy

[Sashag]

I'm sure that they did not mean to leave him off of the ballot. Out of curiosity, what was their responce to your inquiry? -Sasha

[shinco]

Whoops, sorry.. Wrong thread.

[tybear]

Part of the reason would be that Belle didn't officially retire until after the 2003 season. He was on the Physically Unable to Perform list. It had to do with the O's getting paid on their insurance on Belle. That is also part (albeit a small one) of the reason the O's didn't spend any Free Agency money before the 2003-04 off-season

[cubbieinexile]

It had more to do with Albert Belle getting paid and less to do with the O's insurance.

If Albert Belle had retired the Orioles would not have to pay him the 39 million dollars he was owed for the next three seasons. By not retiring he gets all of that.

The Orioles got to recoup 70% of that (27 million) through insurance. They would have been much happier just to see him retire.

I think 4 million a year for three years probably did not deter Angelos from spending money on free agents. I think the real reason he did not sign free agent is because somebody in his office convinced at least for a while that signing over the hill veterans to big contracts was not going to work. In that same period the Orioles tried and failed to a degree to develop youth.

[Brad Harris]

Part of the reason would be that Belle didn't officially retire until after the 2003 season. He was on the Physically Unable to Perform list.

Which leads to the next question:

The most likely explanation for Belle's absence from the list of potential 2006 newcomers is that the Hall of Fame didn't add his name at the time of his actual retirement since there was (at that time) some question as to whether he would be able to play again. I'm sure someone just overlooked the fact he's now been retired for four seasons and Belle has simply been overlooked at this point.

The Hall of Fame certainly isn't going to count his time on the PUTP list against his retirement, else he'd be shown on their list of 2009 newcomers.

Anxious to hear the explanation the Hall gives and/or whether they update the page to add Belle's name.

[Myankee4life]

.295 career avg

381 hr's in 12 seasons

1239 rbi's in 12 seasons

first major leaguer to hit 50hr and 50 doubles in the same season (1995)

5 silver slugger awards

5 time allstar

3 time AL RBI leader

3 time Al SLG percentage leader

1 time AL HR leader

winner of both the The Sporting News Player of the Year & Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award in 1995


He was only the fourth player (Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth ) in Major League history to have eight consecutive seasons with at least thirty home runs and one-hundred runs batted in.

Do you think he belongs in the Hall?

[The Dude]

Yes, he is a HOFer in my opinion. While not an all-time great player, he hit for average and for power well, and led the league or was among the league leaders all through the 90's. And unlike most power hitters today, he didn't stikre out 100+ times a season (only 2 times). Also, he had a few seasons were he walked more then K'ed out. He'll probably be appeared on either next month, or the month after for my BBFHoF ballot.

I'm interested in how he'll do in his first year on the real HoF ballot.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

.295 career avg

381 hr's in 12 seasons

1239 rbi's in 12 seasons

first major leaguer to hit 50hr and 50 doubles in the same season (1995)

5 silver slugger awards

5 time allstar

3 time AL RBI leader

3 time Al SLG percentage leader

1 time AL HR leader

winner of both the The Sporting News Player of the Year & Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award in 1995


He was only the fourth player (Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth ) in Major League history to have eight consecutive seasons with at least thirty home runs and one-hundred runs batted in.

Do you think he belongs in the Hall?
This is tough one. Had he been able to finish his career he would have had perhaps 500-600 HRs and that would have made him an easy HoF choice. But we can't think about what he would have done but look at what he actually did. He wasn't much of defensive player and he lacked certain intangibles. As much as I hate to say it, I have say no to his HoF induction. :ughh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yes, he is a HOFer in my opinion. While not an all-time great player, he hit for average and for power well, and led the league or was among the league leaders all through the 90's. And unlike most power hitters today, he didn't stikre out 100+ times a season (only 2 times). Also, he had a few seasons were he walked more then K'ed out. He'll probably be appeared on either next month, or the month after for my BBFHoF ballot.

I'm interested in how he'll do in his first year on the real HoF ballot.
He's certainly better than several HoF outfielders, Hack Wilson, Chuck Klien, Chick Hafey, and perhaps Wally Berger and Earl Averill.

[pacewon]

No. In this era of offensive explosion, he did not play long enough to compile HOF numbers.

[The Dude]

Just to post his ink totals:
Black Ink: Batting - 28 (62nd All Time)
Gray Ink: Batting - 137 (115th All Time)

[KHenry14]

Belle is an interesting case. I would put forth this comparison:

This HOFer also played for only 12 seasons and put up these #'s

207 HR, 1085 rbi, .318 avg., .477slg

This is Kirby Puckett's line and he was a first ballot inductee.

381 HR, 1239 rbi, .295 avg., .564slg

this is Albert's line.

Does anybody here not think that Belle was the considerably better player? IMO, Puckett's small edge in AVG and his better fielding don't make up for the wide gap in the other stats.

But Puckett was beloved and Belle hated, so Albert will probably have to wait. But in my view, if you inducted Puckett, you HAVE to induct Belle.

KH14

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Belle is an interesting case. I would put forth this comparison:

This HOFer also played for only 12 seasons and put up these #'s

207 HR, 1085 rbi, .318 avg., .477slg

This is Kirby Puckett's line and he was a first ballot inductee.

381 HR, 1239 rbi, .295 avg., .564slg

this is Albert's line.

Does anybody here not think that Belle was the considerably better player? IMO, Puckett's small edge in AVG and his better fielding don't make up for the wide gap in the other stats.

But Puckett was beloved and Belle hated, so Albert will probably have to wait. But in my view, if you inducted Puckett, you HAVE to induct Belle.

KH14
Plus Kirby lead the Twins to two World Championships. I think in time Belle will get in...

[Cardgems]

Look at who does the voting and my answer has to be no.

[pacewon]

Belle is an interesting case. I would put forth this comparison:

This HOFer also played for only 12 seasons and put up these #'s

207 HR, 1085 rbi, .318 avg., .477slg

This is Kirby Puckett's line and he was a first ballot inductee.

381 HR, 1239 rbi, .295 avg., .564slg

this is Albert's line.

Does anybody here not think that Belle was the considerably better player? IMO, Puckett's small edge in AVG and his better fielding don't make up for the wide gap in the other stats.

But Puckett was beloved and Belle hated, so Albert will probably have to wait. But in my view, if you inducted Puckett, you HAVE to induct Belle.

KH14

The problem with this argument is that Puckett does not deserve to be a Hall of Famer, so comparing Belle to a guy who does not belong in doesn't do much in support for him.

[Matthew C.]

Great slugger + plays less than 16 seasons + percieved personality flaws = a no vote from voters, deserving or not. Examp. Dick Allen and Jim Rice. There are certaintly worse players in the Hall than Belle.

Since we are comparing Puckett and Belle, who would have thought five years ago that Belle would be considered the better citizen of the two?

[antihipster]

Compared to other outfielders in the hall, he ought to get in.

His Era Adjusted Value ops/league ops/park factor is 120.024

Despite the fact that Belle was 20% better than the league average w/a park adjustment, he deserves to get in.

[westsidegrounds]

I like to think about how some of the arguments above would play out ...


"Hello, Albert? This is the Hall of Fame calling. Just wanted to let you know you're in."

"What? Get outta here! Are you serious?"

"Absolutely."

"Wow, that's ... I'm so honored! I mean, I know I got kind of a bad rap, like not caring and stuff, but honestly, I never dreamed ... I'm just so ..."

"Yeah, well, we figured there's worse guys than you in, so what the hey."

[Brad Harris]

After electing Kirby Puckett the way they did, if the BBWAA doesn't walk Belle into the Hall of Fame with a plush, red carpet, they will damn themselves to further inconsequence when it comes to the moral authority necessary for bestowing such an honor.

[leecemark]

--The comparison of Puckett and Belle's raw numbers fails to take in account the vastly different offensive environments they played in. Yes, Belle was a better hitter, but the gap isn't as wide as it looks.
--Whatever Puckett's recent misdeeds (or even unknown misdeeds while playing) he was regarded, and IMO was, a team leader and great ambassador for the game. Belle was neither. Puckett was an also excellent defensive CF, while Belle was adequete in the corners. Allen and Rice are better players to compare Belle to than Puckett. I believe both remain outside the Hall.
--Belle may or may not deserve the Hall. If he makes it though, I predict a long wait.

[pacewon]

How many position players are we going to put in from this era? Personally, I already view A-Rod, Bonds, Ramirez, Frank Thomas, Biggio, Piazza, Sosa, Pudge, Jeter, McGwire, Ripken, and Griffey as HOFers, and Belle does not belong in this class. I also have a few players of this generation who are better than Belle and are either close to getting in or are on the fence; Bagwell, Palmeiro, Sheffield, etc.

Albert Belle is not getting my vote.

[Matthew C.]

Pacewon - that is a wonderful quote about Schilling, who said it?

[Cougar]

He's certainly better than several HoF outfielders, Hack Wilson, Chuck Klien, Chick Hafey, and perhaps Wally Berger and Earl Averill.

Wally Berger isn't in the HOF. Just a point of information.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wally Berger isn't in the HOF. Just a point of information.
I stand corrected! Nothing gets by the Baseball Fever!!! :D

Oh wait, I just re-read my ealrer post. I was refering to Wilson, Klien an Hafey as HoFers not Berger...

[Donnybrook @ Second base]

8 seasons in a row with at least 30 Hrs and 100 RBI's is quite impressive.

I say yes.

[KHenry14]

The problem with this argument is that Puckett does not deserve to be a Hall of Famer, so comparing Belle to a guy who does not belong in doesn't do much in support for him.

This may very well be true Pace, but it's a fact that Kirby's in, and whether you or I or anyone else doesn't like it is irrelevant.

Therefore, since Kirby is in, I think my comparison is valid.

KH14

[westsidegrounds]

Lloyd Waner is in.

Therefore, every player who's better than Lloyd Waner should go in.

Q.E.D.

[pesky6]

Pacewon - that is a wonderful quote about Schilling, who said it?

Are you kidding? That quote sucks and it's pretty bush-league of him to use it in his signature. If he puts himself before the Red Sox, then why was he willing to undergo a surgical proceedure TWICE to pitch for his TEAM?!?!? Have you seen anyone else lately go under an experimental procedure just to pitch?

The sad thing is that pacewon would love to have him on the Yankees. Would he be whining about him if he was?

[pacewon]

The sad thing is that pacewon would love to have him on the Yankees. Would he be whining about him if he was?

And the funny thing is that Schilling would rather be a Yankee.

The sig police are after me :laugh

[Matthew C.]

As I have mentioned before, Schilling has only started 30 or more games SIX times in his career. Any way you cut it, that is not impressive. The idea that Schilling is some kind of durable, workhorse is a media myth. Unfortunately, Schilling's bloody-sock and (I admit), dominance over the past four seasons has masked a career of underachieving, durability problems, and teamwork problems.

[Imapotato]

I stand corrected! Nothing gets by the Baseball Fever!!! :D

Oh wait, I just re-read my ealrer post. I was refering to Wilson, Klien an Hafey as HoFers not Berger...


Take Hafey out of that argument and I agree

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Take Hafey out of that argument and I agree
You think Hafey was better than Belle?

[Imapotato]

When a man had to carry 6 pairs of glasses because his sight varied from day to day, missed 2 seasons due to contract holdouts and still put up his numbers...yes, I most certainly do.

The fire of the human spirit is a mighty flame...Hafey had that, Belle did not

[leecemark]

--Hafey may well have been a better man than Belle. He wasn't close to being a better player.

[chunk&sloth]

yes, he's a hof'er

[GiambiJuice]

If he was a nicer dude, I think he would definately make it. His stats from his ten full seasons are incredible. '94 and '95 are mind boggling. He was definately one of the most dominant hitters of his era.

What do you guys think? Should he be in?

[cherfan2]

he deserves it on one condition, he doesnt get injured and keeps playing. other than that no way. he doesnt have 2000 hits and doesnt have 400 homeruns. he isnt even a career .300 hitter. sure he may have been dominant, but hall of fame worthy, no.

[Brad Harris]

cherfan2,

Albert Belle retired five years ago. He won't add to his numbers because he career was cut tragically short by degenerative arthritis in his hip. He will appear on his first Hall of Fame ballot in the writers' election this winter.

Belle produced more in his 12-year career than Puckett did in his. And Puckett was elected on his first ballot. If there's any justice in the BBWAA - and we know there's not - Belle will receive the same consideration by Puckett's supporters.

[The Commissioner]

he deserves it on one condition, he doesnt get injured and keeps playing. other than that no way. he doesnt have 2000 hits and doesnt have 400 homeruns. he isnt even a career .300 hitter. sure he may have been dominant, but hall of fame worthy, no.

However, the point is that he was dominant. Over the course of ten full seasons, he averaged 95 runs, 120 RBI, 37 HRs, and a .298 batting average. His long term totals may not rival some of the all-time greats (although they're still pretty darn impressive), but over that ten year period he was one the most productive hitters in the history of the game.

[julusnc]

They should elect Dick Allen and Albert Belle the same year and let them fight it out in the press who was better.........Same type of player, same type of career and same type of attitude.

[The Commissioner]

They should elect Dick Allen and Albert Belle the same year and let them fight it out in the press who was better.........Same type of player, same type of career and same type of attitude.

But should that attitude prevent either one from being a Hall of Famer?

[Brad Harris]

They should elect Dick Allen and Albert Belle the same year and let them fight it out in the press who was better.........Same type of player, same type of career and same type of attitude.

Allen's public image comes from his response to the prejudice he faced. Belle was simply mean. (Remember those Halloween pranksters he chased down?)

Regardless, both are well-qualified for Cooperstown.

[julusnc]

But should that attitude prevent either one from being a Hall of Famer?

I think they are both deserving of Cooperstown.

The majority of todays athletes have a childish bad attitude but many are great and a couple may be considered legendary.

[rockin500]

If you consider HOF worthiness on a extended stretch where he was considered one of the top 3 or 5 players (which i do consider), than yes he does. He was better than kirby Puckett, thats for sure.

He probably wont get in though because he wasnt a phony like Puckett was. He wasnt exactly a good guy to deal with, but you knew where you stood with him. Too bad you couldnt say the same for Puckett.

[GiambiJuice]

Puckett is a fat blind old pervert. :radio

[The Commissioner]

Puckett is a fat blind old pervert. :radio


That's not a fair assessment... 44 isn't really old!!!

[Exposfan556]

Absolutely Belle should make it. He had a long enough career and dominated throughout.

[Pine Tar]

He should but he won't. See Dick Allen.

[Yankee Pride]

I think he should definately be in , but sometimes you never know. I just remember watching him and remembering how dominant he was. It was incredible.

The Yankees didnt sign Bernie Williams at first because of the chance to get Belle. It was such a priority for Steinbrenner and Cashman to him. Imagine if he played a full career.

So my final answer is , YES!!!

[plask_stirlac]

That's tough.

17th in SLG, 36th in OPS. Nasty 40-130 162 game averages, along with 52 doubles, a triple, and 50 HR in 1995 for 103 extra-base hits. Made it to the 1995 WS...

[Lindseynelson]

Then call it what it is " Most Popular Good Player Sanctuary". Belle , like him or not ,was as dominant at the dish as anyone ever,12 year average is ab,616-runs,103-hits,182-doubles,41-triples,2- Dingers 40--ribbies, 130--average,295.... Mantle wishes he touched those. 12 years Last time I looked( see kirby) 10 was the standard

[RuthMayBond]

Then call it what it is " Most Popular Good Player Sanctuary". Belle , like him or not ,was as dominant at the dish as anyone ever,12 year average is ab,616-runs,103-hits,182-doubles,41-triples,2- Dingers 40--ribbies, 130--average,295.... Mantle wishes he touched those. 12 years Last time I looked( see kirby) 10 was the standardIf Belle was "as dominant at the dish as anyone ever", he'd have more than 28 Black Ink and 36.1 Hall of Fame Standards. Mantle didn't play in the juiced era but has 65 Black Ink and 64.6 Hall of Fame Standards.

[Pine Tar]

If Belle was "as dominant at the dish as anyone ever", he'd have more than 28 Black Ink and 36.1 Hall of Fame Standards. Mantle didn't play in the juiced era but has 65 Black Ink and 64.6 Hall of Fame Standards.

Black ink has nothing to do with steroids. You know, no one had ever accused Belle of using, so if there was any effect of steriods on his career it was to make it more difficult to rack up black ink scores. He did have to compete against Juan Gonzalez, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, and anybody else we don't know about yet who was using.

Belle only played 9 full seasons plus one nearly full season. OK maybe he was no Mantle, but 28 black ink in 9 seasons is outstanding. As for hall-of-fame standards, that is a measure of career longeveity. Harold Baines scores a 43.5 based on the fact that he stuck around forever, while HOFer Ralph Kiner only scores 34.5 even though he lead the league in home runs seven straight years. Belle's 36.1 compares well to other players who played shortended careers but still made it into the hall. Puckett played a bit longer and has a 39, Jackie Robinson has a 38, Earle Combs has a 37, as I mentioned before Kiner has a 34.5, Hack Wilson has a 39. The only one who really stands out is Hank Greenberg with 45 but was an animal and missed seasons due to WWII!

[jalbright]

We've already chewed on this case in another thread which is still quite alive in this very forum. Do we need two going at the same time?

[Lindseynelson]

Yeah ,we do.Don't like it? Look elsewhere. Belle is a HOF performer

[Captain Cold Nose]

Yeah ,we do.Don't like it? Look elsewhere. Belle is a HOF performer
Barely, if at all.
jalbrught made a valid point. We don't need posts that are essentially duplicate in nature. Kindly refrain from telling other posters not to contribute.

[jalbright]

Yeah ,we do.Don't like it? Look elsewhere. Belle is a HOF performer

Gee, it's nice you even channel the personality of the guy you're backing. You happen to be welcome on the other thread--the Belle forces are losing in that poll, for good reason IMO.

Jim Albright

[Wee Willie]

Then call it what it is " Most Popular Good Player Sanctuary". Belle , like him or not ,was as dominant at the dish as anyone ever,12 year average is ab,616-runs,103-hits,182-doubles,41-triples,2- Dingers 40--ribbies, 130--average,295.... Mantle wishes he touched those. 12 years Last time I looked( see kirby) 10 was the standard

Those are great averages, but:

1)They were done in one of the most prolific era for hitters. His best 3 OPS+ seasons are 192, 178, 171. That peak is very similar to Ralph Kiner's: his best 3 OPS+ seasons are 184, 184, and 173. Compare this to Mantle's best 3 seasons: 223, 210, and 206. Actually, Mantle's 4th, 5th and 6th best OPS+ seasons (196, 188, and 181) are higher than Belle's top 3.

2)The fact that he only played 12 years hurts him. Sure, Joe DiMaggio played only 13 years. But during that time, he put up 368 win shares, a 155 career OPS+, and was a terrific defensive center-fielder. Belle put up only 243 win shares and a 143+ OPS. The OPS would be fine if it were done over 15 or more seasons. His win share total is considerably lower that other modern players who have been inducted to the Hall recently. I actually rate Belle with Kiner, who was also dominant for several seasons, but had too short a career (10 seasons) to merit induction, in my mind. Kiner was inducted anyway, but I don't think the same mistake should be made.

Bottom line: great peak, but not great enough to overcome the longevity shortage.

[Pine Tar]

Gee, it's nice you even channel the personality of the guy you're backing. You happen to be welcome on the other thread--the Belle forces are losing in that poll, for good reason IMO.

Jim Albright

Well when I first read your poll, it was 8-0 against him. After presenting some of the accurate data in support of Belle, pollsters have voted 15-14 for him.

[Wee Willie]

Well when I first read your poll, it was 8-0 against him. After presenting some of the accurate data in support of Belle, pollsters have voted 15-14 for him.
The black/gray ink data is accurate, and it is a plus for him, but I don't believe it is as huge a plus as you do. Ralph Kiner is much higher than Belle in black ink, but I wouldn't vote him in, either.

[Pine Tar]

Here are the black ink scores of position players not let eligible for enshrinement. Belle ranks 6th ahead of many presumed hall of famers.
65 Barry*Bonds
57 Tony*Gwynn
50 Rickey*Henderson
40 Alex*Rodriguez
36 Mark*McGwire
28 Albert Belle
28 Sammy*Sosa
26 Ken*Griffey
24 Jeff*Bagwell
24 Larry*Walker
21 Andres*Galarraga
21 Manny*Ramirez
21 Frank*Thomas
20 Edgar*Martinez
20 Tim*Raines
19 Dante*Bichette
19 Cal*Ripken
18 Ichiro*Suzuki
17 Craig*Biggio


Here is where he ranks in gray ink (he ranks 9th also ahead of several presumed hall of famers)

285 Barry*Bonds
189 Frank*Thomas
183 Rafael*Palmeiro
157 Jeff*Bagwell
155 Tony*Gwynn
153 Ken*Griffey
143 Rickey*Henderson
138 Sammy*Sosa
137 Albert Belle
136 Alex*Rodriguez
125 Todd*Helton
125 Manny*Ramirez
122 Andres*Galarraga
116 Cal*Ripken
116 Larry*Walker
114 Tim*Raines
110 Mark*McGwire
109 Vladimir*Guerrero
108 Gary*Sheffield
107 Edgar*Martinez
105 Juan*Gonzalez
105 Fred*McGriff
104 Craig*Biggio
101 Mike*Piazza

He really is in an elite class of player, and even though Kiner was probably better, by comparing him to his peers he looks like a hall of famer.

[rsuriyop]

Just wanted to touch off on steroids issue that RMB and Pine Tar had brought up since apparently no one else wants to comment on it.

If anything, shouldn't the mere fact that McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, and Palmeiro were all more likely than not to have used steroids during the 90's help Belle's HOF chances?

[jalbright]

Well when I first read your poll, it was 8-0 against him. After presenting some of the accurate data in support of Belle, pollsters have voted 15-14 for him.

All the data I posted was accurate. By the way, 15-14 won't get him into any HOF, in case you hadn't noticed.

Jim Albright

[Pine Tar]

All the data I posted was accurate. By the way, 15-14 won't get him into any HOF, in case you hadn't noticed.

Jim Albright

If we did a vote here for Olrando Cepeda, do you think he would get 75%?
His win-shares actually put him at about the 26th best first baseman of all-time, considering Helton and Carlos Delgado probably passed him this year. Check out this website and see for yourself. This same website rates Belle as the 19th best left fielder, Bobby Abreu probably passing him this year, but Abreu is actually a right fielder so he doesn't count.

http://www.sethspeaks.net/110904.htm

[leecemark]

--I think most of us see Cepeda as a very marginal Hall of Famer. I also doubt he would get 75% support here, so a protracted argument about Belle worthiness in contrast to Cepeda is kind of pointless.

[jalbright]

I'd just sneak Cepeda in the Hall, and just keep Belle out, largely because of career value. If you weight things differently, you can certainly justify exactly the reverse position--or justify including or excluding both, depending on where you draw the line. The choices of what measures to use and what weights to give them are inherently subjective, even if once those decisions are made, the approach is absolutely objective. I can show you chapter and verse of how I arrived at my position--but since you disagree with my weighting, I don't see what purpose it would serve.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

--I think most of us see Cepeda as a very marginal Hall of Famer. I also doubt he would get 75% support here, so a protracted argument about Belle worthiness in contrast to Cepeda is kind of pointless.

I would have thought so as well, but Cepeda is listed in the Veteran's Committee mistakes poll, and has only been named as a mistake by 8 of 27 voters, or less than 30%. Presumably, that means over 70% are fine with his selection.

Jim Albright

[Pine Tar]

I would have thought so as well, but Cepeda is listed in the Veteran's Committee mistakes poll, and has only been named as a mistake by 8 of 27 voters, or less than 30%. Presumably, that means over 70% are fine with his selection.

Jim Albright

There's a difference between naming his election as a mistake and choosing not to vote for him. Several people in the discussion have said that if Belle were inductded into the Hall they would be fine with it but they wouldn't vote for him. I am guessing that is the spirit behind not naming Cepeda as a mistake. I wouldn't name his election as a mistake but I wouldn't vote for him either.

[pacewon]

Mantle wishes he touched those.

I'm disgusted by the fact that you put Mickey Mantle down, as if mentioning his name in the same sentence as Albert Belle does anything besides make Belle look like a clown.

[Lindseynelson]

I grew up watching Mantle. I was at Mickey Mantle Day.( were you?) I saw them both. Belle was every bit the hitter and more Mantle ever was and Belle didn't have guys like Skowron, Berra ,Howard and so on around him. You don't like belle. fine , your choice, but look at the numbers and Belle is there

[RuthMayBond]

I grew up watching Mantle. I was at Mickey Mantle Day.( were you?) I saw them both. Belle was every bit the hitter and more Mantle ever was and Belle didn't have guys like Skowron, Berra ,Howard and so on around him. You don't like belle. fine , your choice, but look at the numbers and Belle is thereIf you like 143 OPS+/6673 PA over 172 OPS+/9909 PA. And since other things factor into Hall worthiness, if you like 88 SB/41 CS/playing LF over 153 SB/38 CS/playing CF :waving

[jalbright]

I grew up watching Mantle. I was at Mickey Mantle Day.( were you?) I saw them both. Belle was every bit the hitter and more Mantle ever was and Belle didn't have guys like Skowron, Berra ,Howard and so on around him. You don't like belle. fine , your choice, but look at the numbers and Belle is there

I won't go into the traditional counting stats, because Mantle clobbers him in part because he had almost half again as many plate appearances. Also, the argument seems to be on peak performance. Still, Mantle's career OBP is far better, 421 to 369, and his career slugging percentage is almost the same. Mantle created 8.78 runs per 27 career outs, Belle 7.48. Let's compare peak win shares. Belle's best 3 years are 37, 31 and 30. Mantle's are 51, 49 and 48 in shorter seasons. In fact, Mantle's win shares per 162 games of 38.12 is better than Belle's best season. Mickey had five seasons better than Belle's best, and had 11 seasons of 30 or more win shares to Belle's 3. Belle ranks 11th in Win Shares in the 1990's, according to the Win Shares book. That's good, but Mantle is #1 in the fifties and #7 in the sixties. He had less win shares in the sixties, yet had more in that decade than Belle did in his entire career. Their top five consecutive seasons in Win Shares is also lopsidedly for Mantle: 216 to 140. Mantle won a Triple Crown, Belle didn't. Mickey won 3 MVPs, Belle none. Mickey had 5.79 MVP shares, Belle 2.38. Mickey was an All-Star 16 times, Belle 5. Mickey wins Gray ink 272-137. I'll continue beating that dead horse by comparing league leading performances: Mickey loses once, in RBI, 3-1. In OBP, he won 3-0. In Slugging percentage, 4-2, in runs 6-1, in HR 4-1, in OPS+ 7-1, and in runs created 6-1. Unsurprisingly, Mantle dominates in Black Ink 65-28. Belle was nowhere near Mickey even at their respective peaks.

Jim Albright

[Chisox]

I grew up watching Mantle. I was at Mickey Mantle Day.( were you?) I saw them both. Belle was every bit the hitter and more Mantle ever was and Belle didn't have guys like Skowron, Berra ,Howard and so on around him. You don't like belle. fine , your choice, but look at the numbers and Belle is there

What numbers? All the numbers I'm looking at point to Mantle trouncing Belle. They have similar Slugging %, but that's about it, from what I can make. Then again, Belle played in the '90s, in Cleveland Municipal, Jacob's Field, Comiskey Park, and Camden, so that might have had something to do with it.

[Pine Tar]

Does it really take this many people to say that Mantle was a better hitter than Belle?

[Barnstormer]

Ok, just so I'm clear on this, we are actually debating whether or not Albert Belle was better than Mickey Mantle? So the question has morphed from whether Belle deserves to be in the hall to whether he's one of the top 20 players of all time?

[Chisox]

Ok, just so I'm clear on this, we are actually debating whether or not Albert Belle was better than Mickey Mantle? So the question has morphed from whether Belle deserves to be in the hall to whether he's one of the top 20 players of all time?

I really don't know. I think you have to ask the person who started this thread. Either (I presume she) thinks Mantle's not one of the elite, or Belle is. That's my take. You expect us to figure her out?

[Dodger]

Belle looks OK compared to the lowered standard of sluggers recently inducted like Cepeda and Tony Perez. Belle was a better hitter than those guys but his shortened career, reputation and the fact that his career numbers are going to be dwarfed for the next couple of decades by 500 home runs guys will keep him out for a long time.

He's a borderline case, I'd probably vote no.

[charlesblalack@yahoo.com]

I don't think he'll get in the hall right away but I give him an outside shot in a few decades

[jalbright]

Does it really take this many people to say that Mantle was a better hitter than Belle?

Seems to me the poster who has insisted on comparing Mantle and Belle (by being quite adamant in doing it a second time) and who also insisted on continuing this thread despite the existence of another live thread on the same exact topic (except for the Mantle/Belle comparison) asked for this. You and I disagree about Belle, but at least your position has some facts to back it up. The Mantle/Belle comparison doesn't.

Jim Albright

[iPod]

I grew up watching Mantle. I was at Mickey Mantle Day.( were you?) I saw them both. Belle was every bit the hitter and more Mantle ever was and Belle didn't have guys like Skowron, Berra ,Howard and so on around him. You don't like belle. fine , your choice, but look at the numbers and Belle is there

He didn't have Skowron, Berra, and Howard, but he did have Manny, Thome, and Murray in Cleveland, Frank Thomas and Harold Baines in Chicago, and Cal Ripken and Baines again in Baltimore.

[Big_Mac]

hmmmm, 5 time all-star, 9 straight 100 rbi years, 10 straight 20 homerun years, led the league in slugging twice. those numbers look awfully decent but belle doesnt seem like a hof to me for some reason (nothing against him). hes one of those guys on the fringe

[Tavish]

I grew up watching Mantle. I was at Mickey Mantle Day.( were you?) I saw them both. Belle was every bit the hitter and more Mantle ever was and Belle didn't have guys like Skowron, Berra ,Howard and so on around him. You don't like belle. fine , your choice, but look at the numbers and Belle is there


Poor Albert, having to hit in a weak lineup with the likes of Manny Ramirez, Eddie Murray, Kenny Lofton, Jim Thome, and Frank Thomas during the beginning of the second Live Ball era, in good hitters parks and with a corked bat. Luckily he made up for his shortened career by being a beloved player and great role model.

Belle was a great offensive player in an era of great offensive players. There was absolutely nothing he did without the bat that made him stand out from the crowd. An average glove, average arm, average baserunner and below average attitude.

[Pine Tar]

There was absolutely nothing he did without the bat that made him stand out from the crowd. An average glove, average arm, average baserunner and below average attitude.

Let's see...how can we minimize his accomplishments?

I'm certainly not going to compare him to Mantle, but that doesn't mean his career was as you seem to be characterizing it. So he gets two negatives for being average defensively, and for being an average baserunner, and only one for hitting for average and for power? :rolleyes:
Plus people are way too concerned about his attitude.

I mean Mickey Mantle was an alchoholic. He was certainly no role model either, but everybody LOVES him. He was also rude to the media and to the fans for most of his career. Again, Belle is no Mantle, but he is also no Dave Kingman either.

I wishh people could just stick to the facts about this and have an honest debate about his credentials. So that means not although he's not better than Mantle, he was still one of the most dominant players of the 90's.

And by the way, his baserunning was above average. In 1999 he stole 17 bases and was caught 3 times. THat is an 85% success rate.

[RuthMayBond]

I wishh people could just stick to the facts about this and have an honest debate about his credentials. So that means not although he's not better than Mantle, he was still one of the most dominant players of the 90's.That's what I'm trying to do. Belle did stand out from the crowd and is a borderline Hall of Famer, but Mantle is a borderline best-ever player, excepting one sprinkler

<And by the way, his baserunning was above average. In 1999 he stole 17 bases and was caught 3 times. THat is an 85% success rate.>

You forgot '96's 11-0. He wasn't a PROLIFIC baserunner, but he was a SMART baserunner.

[Pine Tar]

That's what I'm trying to do. Belle did stand out from the crowd and is a borderline Hall of Famer, but Mantle is a borderline best-ever player, excepting one sprinkler

<And by the way, his baserunning was above average. In 1999 he stole 17 bases and was caught 3 times. THat is an 85% success rate.>

You forgot '96's 11-0. He wasn't a PROLIFIC baserunner, but he was a SMART baserunner.

I agree that you are adding to the discussion. Sorry if I insinuated otherwise. There are just some people who seem to wait for an opportunity to spew a bunch of hate in the forum, and they really never provide any stats or information of any kind to back up their positions. They are the haters of the board, and more often than not they are hating on players like Belle, Dick Allen, Barry Bonds, or Rickey Henderson. I wonder why this type of players always get singled out?

[leecemark]

--By this type of player do you mean a**holes? Actually, I wouldn't put Henderson in the same class as Allen, Bonds and Belle. The Rickey had an unusual personality, but it was more eccentric than hostile. Bonds and Belle were/are arrogant, meanspirted jerks. Not to say I wouldn't want them on my team. They were great enough players to put up with their baggage, but it surely isn't a plus. With Belle's short career he isn't a no brainer for the Hall and his history of antagonizing the men who will vote for it won't help him. In fact, it will likely be the kiss of death.

[Tavish]

Let's see...how can we minimize his accomplishments?

I'm certainly not going to compare him to Mantle, but that doesn't mean his career was as you seem to be characterizing it. So he gets two negatives for being average defensively, and for being an average baserunner, and only one for hitting for average and for power? :rolleyes:
Plus people are way too concerned about his attitude.

I mean Mickey Mantle was an alchoholic. He was certainly no role model either, but everybody LOVES him. He was also rude to the media and to the fans for most of his career. Again, Belle is no Mantle, but he is also no Dave Kingman either.

I wishh people could just stick to the facts about this and have an honest debate about his credentials. So that means not although he's not better than Mantle, he was still one of the most dominant players of the 90's.

And by the way, his baserunning was above average. In 1999 he stole 17 bases and was caught 3 times. THat is an 85% success rate.

Being average defensively and as a baserunner isn't a negative, it just simply isn't a plus (having one season where he had a good SB rate in his career doesn't make him an above average baserunner). If people are wanting to put him into the Hall simply for being a great bat and not a standout anywhere else then they need to make room for a great number of players who played in this time period. Juan Gonzalez put up better numbers and was a two time MVP. Jim Thome, David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Manny Ramirez, Griffey Jr, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, and Larry Walker are all very comparable simply on offensive numbers. Almost every one of those players were as good as Belle offensively and were able to do so for a longer period time and were able to excel at least one other part of the game. I wouldn't consider half of that group to be Hall of Famers so I don't see much reason to put put Belle above them.

[Pine Tar]

Being average defensively and as a baserunner isn't a negative, it just simply isn't a plus (having one season where he had a good SB rate in his career doesn't make him an above average baserunner). If people are wanting to put him into the Hall simply for being a great bat and not a standout anywhere else then they need to make room for a great number of players who played in this time period. Juan Gonzalez put up better numbers and was a two time MVP. Jim Thome, David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Manny Ramirez, Griffey Jr, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, and Larry Walker are all very comparable simply on offensive numbers. Almost every one of those players were as good as Belle offensively and were able to do so for a longer period time and were able to excel at least one other part of the game. I wouldn't consider half of that group to be Hall of Famers so I don't see much reason to put put Belle above them.

I suggest you look at Belle's statistics before making any more ignorant statements about his career. Or at least read the other posts as it was pointed out that he was a very intelligent baserunner, and had other years when he did well on the bases.

Your comparisons to other players are laughable. :laugh

Once again, you write a bunch of things that don't add to the discussion because you don't back up anything you say with actual stats.

Not sure how you can put David Justice or Mo Vaughn in the same class as Belle. Take a minute and compare their stats if you have any doubts.

We know that Palmeiro is a steroid user so he may never get in the hall for that.

Your statement that they were nearly all as good as Belle and able to do it longer seems to be saying that their peaks were as good as his, along with their career numbers being better. That statment is rediculous. :laugh

The only players of that group that had offensive peaks that were better than Belle's were Frank Thomas, Griffey, and Ramirez. This doesn't take away from the other players but Belle was better offensively. Also, remember that Larry Walker was in Colorado.

As for Juan Gonzalez, so what they he won two MVPs? He was definetely NOT a better offensive player than Belle. Look at the stats and get back to me. http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gonzaju03.shtml
Belle was clearly better.

If you don't think Belle deserves to be in the hall that fine, but focus on the real reasons and not made up ones based on how you remember things or how you feel about Belle.

[Pine Tar]

Being average defensively and as a baserunner isn't a negative, it just simply isn't a plus (having one season where he had a good SB rate in his career doesn't make him an above average baserunner). If people are wanting to put him into the Hall simply for being a great bat and not a standout anywhere else then they need to make room for a great number of players who played in this time period. Juan Gonzalez put up better numbers and was a two time MVP. Jim Thome, David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Manny Ramirez, Griffey Jr, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, and Larry Walker are all very comparable simply on offensive numbers. Almost every one of those players were as good as Belle offensively and were able to do so for a longer period time and were able to excel at least one other part of the game. I wouldn't consider half of that group to be Hall of Famers so I don't see much reason to put put Belle above them.

What the heck did Juan Gonzalez, Fred McGriff, Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Rafael Palmeiro, David Justice, and Carlos Delgado do other than hit? Please tell me because none of them have nearly the stolen base records that Belle had and none of them excelled defensively. IN fact the only pllayers on your list that did anything other than hit are Larry Walker, Bagwell, Griffey, and Sheffield. Please explain your comparisons.

[RuthMayBond]

Juan Gonzalez put up better numbers and was a two time MVP. JDavid Justice, Mo Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Rafael Palmeiro are all very comparable simply on offensive numbers.OPS+
133 Gonzalez
128 Justice
132 Vaughn FEWER PA
134 McGriff & easier position
132 Palmeiro & easier position

[Tavish]

What the heck did Juan Gonzalez, Fred McGriff, Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn, Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Rafael Palmeiro, David Justice, and Carlos Delgado do other than hit? Please tell me because none of them have nearly the stolen base records that Belle had and none of them excelled defensively. IN fact the only pllayers on your list that did anything other than hit are Larry Walker, Bagwell, Griffey, and Sheffield. Please explain your comparisons.

That was exactly my comparison. If somehow Belle averaging 9 SB and 4 CS over 162 games makes him a standout on the bases then our standards of excelling is so completely different that I'm at a loss on how to debate the point. Belle was a standout hitter in an era of standout hitters. If he derserves to be in the Hall based on his bat alone then all of those players (most of which did so over a longer period of time) should be in as well.

[leecemark]

--I think LF and 1B are about equal as defensive positions. Nobody plays either one based on their glovework. Justice was a good defensive player, although not so much that he gets huge credit for it (he may get some because his teams ALWAYS won and he was a top postseason performer). Gonzalez and Vaughn - even more so - were pretty one dimensional players.

[Pine Tar]

That was exactly my comparison. If somehow Belle averaging 9 SB and 4 CS over 162 games makes him a standout on the bases then our standards of excelling is so completely different that I'm at a loss on how to debate the point. Belle was a standout hitter in an era of standout hitters. If he derserves to be in the Hall based on his bat alone then all of those players (most of which did so over a longer period of time) should be in as well.

That was your comparison but you said that most of them excelled in something other than hitting, which is absolutely false. So your point was false. And nobody said he was an excellent baserunner but I think 9 and 4 can put him in the above average category for baserunning. And most of the hitters you mentioned were not nearly as good a hitter as Belle, so putting him in does not mean you have to put them all in.

Having said that Thomas, Griffey, Bagwell, Ramirez, Delgado, McGriff, Palmeiro, Thome, Sheffield, and Walker all have at least a decent chance of making the hall. The only ones on your list that don't really have a chance are Gonzalez, Vaughn, and Justice.

So what are you trying to prove by comparing him to a bunch of probable HOFers and borderline HOFers who were mostly one dimensional players themselves?

[Tavish]

OPS+
133 Gonzalez
128 Justice
132 Vaughn FEWER PA
134 McGriff & easier position
132 Palmeiro & easier position

Every one of those players other than Vaughn also played (or in Palmerio's case is playing) through their decline phase. The difference in OPS+ between Belle's 143 and Palmeiro's 132 is just over 4 HR's a year. Pretty comparable.

[Pine Tar]

Every one of those players other than Vaughn also played (or in Palmerio's case is playing) through their decline phase. The difference in OPS+ between Belle's 143 and Palmeiro's 132 is just over 4 HR's a year. Pretty comparable.

Its also the difference between a .360 and a .400 OBP.

DAVID JUSTICE HAD LESS CAREER AT BATS THAN BELLE! JUAN GONZALEZ HAS ABOUT ONE MORE YEAR'S WORTH OF AT BATS! STOP MAKING STATEMENTS ABOUT STATISTICS THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT! YOU ARE WRONG SO MANY TIMES ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY! :grouchy

[Tavish]

I suggest you look at Belle's statistics before making any more ignorant statements about his career. Or at least read the other posts as it was pointed out that he was a very intelligent baserunner, and had other years when he did well on the bases.
I have looked at Belle's statistics, and while they are great he played in an era where there are a bunch of great statistics. His offensive numbers simply are not great enough to overcome the length of his career, his average ability in the other parts of the game and his unlikeable attitude. He was without a doubt one of the best offensive players in the 90s, it simply isn't enough for me to think he deserves to be in the Hall.


Not sure how you can put David Justice or Mo Vaughn in the same class as Belle. Take a minute and compare their stats if you have any doubts.

While Justice is a stretch, I'm not sure how you see Belle as so completely above the players I listed that its an insult to Belle's performance to mention them in the same area. Saying a player is comparable doesn't mean that the player is better than them. Belle outperforms many of those on my original list, but not by some great amount.


We know that Palmeiro is a steroid user so he may never get in the hall for that.
We know that Belle used a corked bat, but I guess that should just be ignored.


Your statement that they were nearly all as good as Belle and able to do it longer seems to be saying that their peaks were as good as his, along with their career numbers being better. That statment is rediculous. :laugh

Either I misstated or you misinterpreted, here is the more indepth comparison. Not all of those players were as good as Belle was at his peak. But they were all (except for Justice who shouldn't have been on the list) very comparable. The ones that have a very good shot at the Hall IMO (Bagwell, Griffey, Palmerio, and Thomas) were able to play at a level near that for a much longer time. There are others I don't think really have much of a shot at the Hall (Walker, McGriff, and Sheffield) who either had something else besides just hitting or also had longer careers. Then there was the last group that neither played long enough for me to support for the Hall nor had another part of the game to add enough value (Belle, Gonzalez, Vaughn, Ramirez, Delgado, and Thome).

The only players of that group that had offensive peaks that were better than Belle's were Frank Thomas, Griffey, and Ramirez. This doesn't take away from the other players but Belle was better offensively. Also, remember that Larry Walker was in Colorado.
He was better than most, pretty comparable though. Not exactly Ruthian compared to others in the same era. 5 year peaks stats:


Player Games BA OBP SLG HR OPS
Gonzalez 131 0.31 0.359 0.613 40 0.972
Vaughn 147 0.313 0.391 0.565 38 0.956
Belle 157 0.305 0.388 0.597 43 0.985
Thome 145 0.287 0.421 0.568 36 0.989
Sheffield 145 0.315 0.416 0.573 35 0.989
Delgado 152 0.293 0.401 0.584 39 0.985
McGriff 144 0.294 0.392 0.547 34 0.939
Palmerio 159 0.291 0.392 0.577 44 0.969
Bagwell 158 0.304 0.43 0.586 39 1.016



As for Juan Gonzalez, so what they he won two MVPs? He was definetely NOT a better offensive player than Belle. Look at the stats and get back to me. http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gonzaju03.shtml
Belle was clearly better.
162 game career average (1688 Games Gonzalez - 1539 Games Belle)


Player AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG
Belle 616 103 182 41 2 40 130 9 4 72 101 0.295 0.369 0.564
Gonzalez 629 102 186 37 2 42 135 2 2 44 122 0.295 0.343 0.561


Pretty close. Gonzalez is on the outside looking in for the Hall, the same place I have Belle.

[Pine Tar]

While Justice is a stretch, I'm not sure how you see Belle as so completely above the players I listed that its an insult to Belle's performance to mention them in the same area. Saying a player is comparable doesn't mean that the player is better than them. Belle outperforms many of those on my original list, but not by some great amount.
You didn't just say they were comparable, you also stated that they were all just as good offensively as Belle. THat is clearly not the case. You also said that Juan Gonzalez was CLEARLY better offensively than Belle. Which is also clearly not the case.

We know that Belle used a corked bat, but I guess that should just be ignored.
No it shouldn't but it certainly isn't as bad as taking steroids, lying in front of congress, and ratting out your teammates.



The ones that have a very good shot at the Hall IMO (Bagwell, Griffey, Palmerio, and Thomas) were able to play at a level near that for a much longer time. There are others I don't think really have much of a shot at the Hall (Walker, McGriff, and Sheffield) who either had something else besides just hitting or also had longer careers. Then there was the last group that neither played long enough for me to support for the Hall nor had another part of the game to add enough value (Belle, Gonzalez, Vaughn, Ramirez, Delgado, and Thome).
Bagwell, Griffey, And Thomas will all get in.
Palmeiro is going to have a tough time getting in considering this year. Without the steroids he would have gotten in.
Sheffield is going to get it. There really is no debate about that.
Ramirez will probably get in.
Vaughn will not get in.
The others all have a decent shot.

And also, Palmeiro's peak was not nearly as good as Belle's. Check out the differences in OPS+.



He was better than most, pretty comparable though. Not exactly Ruthian compared to others in the same era. 5 year peaks stats:


Player Games BA OBP SLG HR OPS
Gonzalez 131 0.31 0.359 0.613 40 0.972
Vaughn 147 0.313 0.391 0.565 38 0.956
Belle 157 0.305 0.388 0.597 43 0.985
Thome 145 0.287 0.421 0.568 36 0.989
Sheffield 145 0.315 0.416 0.573 35 0.989
Delgado 152 0.293 0.401 0.584 39 0.985
McGriff 144 0.294 0.392 0.547 34 0.939
Palmerio 159 0.291 0.392 0.577 44 0.969
Bagwell 158 0.304 0.43 0.586 39 1.016



162 game career average (1688 Games Gonzalez - 1539 Games Belle)


Player AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG
Belle 616 103 182 41 2 40 130 9 4 72 101 0.295 0.369 0.564
Gonzalez 629 102 186 37 2 42 135 2 2 44 122 0.295 0.343 0.561


Pretty close. Gonzalez is on the outside looking in for the Hall, the same place I have Belle.

You should try using OPS+ instead of 162 game averages. It's no surprise that Gonzalez and Palmeiro seem to match up well with Belle considering they played their best years in Texas. OPS+ adjusts for differences in ballparks and across time periods. When you do that Palmeiro's best 5 years of OPS+ are 150.8, Gonzalez's are 151.2, and Belle's are 168.6! NOT EVEN CLOSE! :dance

[Tavish]

You didn't just say they were comparable, you also stated that they were all just as good offensively as Belle. THat is clearly not the case. You also said that Juan Gonzalez was CLEARLY better offensively than Belle. Which is also clearly not the case.


Juan Gonzalez put up better numbers and was a two time MVP. Jim Thome, David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Manny Ramirez, Griffey Jr, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, and Larry Walker are all very comparable simply on offensive numbers.

You could at least attempt to read my posts before going off on a rant. None of that "clearly" states I believe those players were "clearly" better offensively than Belle. He is in a group where I believe those who had more distinguished careers or more well rounded games should make the Hall and those who were just great hitters should not.

[Pine Tar]

You could at least attempt to read my posts before going off on a rant. None of that "clearly" states I believe those players were "clearly" better offensively than Belle. He is in a group where I believe those who had more distinguished careers or more well rounded games should make the Hall and those who were just great hitters should not.
You should read your own posts.
You said:

Juan Gonzalez put up better numbers...
That quote from you clearly states that Gonzalez put up better numbers than Belle.
You should also read my posts. I never stated that you said that all those players were clearly better than Belle. You even quote me but then you go on to say that I accuse you of saying that all those players are better than Belle. Read it again. It says that you are saying those players are just as good as Belle. Which you do say...

David Justice, Mo Vaughn, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Manny Ramirez, Griffey Jr, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, and Larry Walker are all very comparable simply on offensive numbers. Almost every one of those players were as good as Belle offensively and were able to do so for a longer period time and were able to excel at least one other part of the game. ...
So, lets recap: You started by sayingn that Gonzalez was better than Belle, and that all of these other palyers including Justice and Vaughn all were just as good offensively as Belle. Now you are saying that you only said they were comparable. :confused: and that I need to read your posts before going on a rant. :laugh
Clearly, you need to look again at the stats. Palmeiro's best 5 years of OPS+ are 150.8, Gonzalez's are 151.2, and Belle's are 168.6! NOT EVEN CLOSE! :dance

[Lindseynelson]

Albert Belle drove in 110 plus nine years , Mantle 4

[Lindseynelson]

Heck, I get tired of folks downplaying a giant like Belle

[DoubleX]

Then call it what it is " Most Popular Good Player Sanctuary". Belle , like him or not ,was as dominant at the dish as anyone ever,12 year average is ab,616-runs,103-hits,182-doubles,41-triples,2- Dingers 40--ribbies, 130--average,295.... Mantle wishes he touched those. 12 years Last time I looked( see kirby) 10 was the standard

Couldn't take this seriously once you implied that Belle's peak was better than Mantle's. If you want to talk about dominance, consider the fact that that Mantle's OPS+ is 30 points higher than Belle's, despite having almost 2500 more ABs and a longer decline period then Belle (which is another reason why Belle's 162 game averages are high; they would have been lower had he had a normal decline period). Now eliminate Mantle's decline and just use his 10 or 12 best years, and Belle isn't even in sniffing distance. Here's a look at their 10 best years:

Belle: 192, 178, 171, 157, 145, 139, 134, 123, 116, 109
Mantle: 223, 210, 206, 196, 188, 181, 177, 169, 164, 162

Throw in the facts that Mantle was a much finer all around player then Belle, and that Belle's power numbers were inflated by out of whack power of the steroids era, there really is no appropriate comparison in this case. Try Ralph Kiner.

I personally have Belle as on the fence and wouldn't mind at all of he was inducted. The comparison to Mantle though isn't a good one for Belle.

[Lindseynelson]

Mickey had 4 100plus rbi seasons, joey had 9.

[dgarza]

100+ Run seasons;
Mantle 10
Belle 4

100+ RC seasons;
Mantle 11
Belle 7

100+ BB seasons;
Mantle 10
Belle 1

20+ SB seasons;
Mantle 1
Belle 1

I think Belle is still a solid HOF cand.

[eddiejc1]

You know, a lot of people dislike Barry Bonds because he is not a media darling. But in fairness to Barry, he did not chase kids off his property with a baseball bat nor did he attack a reporter. Not only do the fans remember this, so do the writers. Even though I believe he never used steroids, for what he has done off the field will probably keep him out of Cooperstown.

Eddie Cunningham

P.S. It also does not help Albert that when he left Cleveland and burned his bridges behind him, he lost the most loyal group of fans he would ever have. He never won new fans in Chicago or Baltimore who supported him the way Indians fans did.

[eddiejc1]

One more thing. Some fans are going to say off-the field shenanigans doesn't count and cite the example of Ty Cobb running into the stands and pummeling a handicapped fans that (according to Cobb) was yelling racial slurs at him. In 1939, the baseball writers thought that wasn't a big deal and voted Cobb into the Hall. If something like that happened today, I think it would torpedoe the guy's candidacy for the Hall even if his numbers were close to Cobb's...

Eddie Cunningham

[Naliamegod]

Mickey had 4 100plus rbi seasons, joey had 9.

You do relize 100 RBIs were way harder to get back inthe 50s/60s then the 90s, right?

[Pine Tar]

You do relize 100 RBIs were way harder to get back inthe 50s/60s then the 90s, right?
Was it really easier in the 90's to get a 100RBIs?

If you adjust only for the number of games played (there were only 154 games played through 1961) Then Mantle has what amounts to 6 100 RBI seasons. I simply added 5% to his RBI totals from 52-61.

Of course you have to adjust his strike out totals as well which results in Mantle having two additional 100 strike out seasons for a total of 10. Belle had two 100 K years.

I guess to address this question though you also need to adjust for the number of runs scored per game in the AL in both players' careers. Let's look at the runs scored per game during the years Mantle and Belle played.

Mantle's years where he had a reasonable shot at driving in 100 RBIs were from 52-64. From 52-62, there were an average of 4.4 runs scored per game in the AL. This average was pretty consistant during this time. Then, the average dropped significantly to about 4.1 in 63-64 (Mantle was injured in 63 though and reached 100 RBIs in 64 so the drop didn't really impact Mantle's ability to reach 100 RBIs).

For Belle's career, from 91-93 there were 4.5 runs scored per game ( not much different than Mantle's). Now in 94 and 95 the averaged jumped up to about 5.1 BUT they were both strike shortened seasons, so there were less games from which to rack up RBI totals. The first real season when you can say that it was significantly easier to obtain 100 RBIs was 1996. From 96-00 there were about 5.2 runs per game in the AL. Obviously, that is a lot more scoring across 162 games than 4.4 runs across 154 games (23% easier to be exact).

So I conclude that in the first half of the 90's it was not that much easier to get to 100 RBIs than it was during most of Mantle's career (4.4 and a 5% less games played versus 4.5 and strike shortened seasons), but in the second half of the 90's, and of Belle's career, it was 23% easier (4.4 and 5% less games played versus 5.2).

Now I am NOT saying Belle was better than Mantle. It makes my arguments for Belle's candacy more difficult when it is argued that he was better. I am saying that perhaps Belle's was at least as good as Mantle was in driving in runs. Mantle walked a ton and struck out a ton. In neither situation are you likely to be driving in any runs. Although Belle had his share of both, he didn't come close to the K and walk numbers Mantle put up each year. In fact Belle was only once in the top ten in Ks and twice in the tope ten in walks. Mantle lead the AL in Ks 5 times and in walks 6 time.

[jalbright]

I am saying that perhaps Belle's was at least as good as Mantle was in driving in runs. Mantle walked a ton and struck out a ton. In neither situation are you likely to be driving in any runs. Although Belle had his share of both, he didn't come close to the K and walk numbers Mantle put up each year. In fact Belle was only once in the top ten in Ks and twice in the tope ten in walks. Mantle lead the AL in Ks 5 times and in walks 6 time.
Perhaps--but the only way we could really begin to know the answer to the question is to know how many guys each man had on base (i.e. his opportunities) when he came to bat.

Jim Albright

[Yanks05]

Jim Rice anyone?

BLACK INK 33

GREY INK 176

And I hate the sox

[RuthMayBond]

Jim Rice anyone?

BLACK INK 33

GREY INK 176

And I hate the soxHis ink was helped by his home park. The main thing he has to offer, relative SLG is still behind GFoster, PGuerrero, Canseco, Reggie Smith ...

[Yanks05]

His ink was helped by his home park. The main thing he has to offer, relative SLG is still behind GFoster, PGuerrero, Canseco, Reggie Smith ...

Dude are you kiddin me? What about Larry Walker and Todd Helton they're both probably HOF's and you can't hit in a more friendly hitters park than Coors. You still gotta hit the friggin ball, and he did a hell of a job doin it just like Belle, but both (Rice and Belle), will probably get stung by the writers

Dude you can't be taken seriously when you mention a juice head like Canseco (.515 SLG just barely ahead of Rice's non-juiced mark of .509 not to mention Rice had over 2400 hits as compared to senor juices just over 1800), streaky at best fan favorites like Pedro (.480 SLG), guys with good first half of thier career numbers like Smith (.489 SLG), or reverse racists like Foster (.480 SLG), who had maybe two real good years and lived off of it

[RuthMayBond]

Dude you can't be taken seriously when you mention a juice head like Canseco (.515 SLG just barely ahead of Rice's non-juiced mark of .509 not to mention Rice had over 2400 hits as compared to senor juices just over 1800),

Compared to Belle's how many?

<streaky at best fan favorites like Pedro (.480 SLG)>

You're not just streaky with his RELATIVE SLG

<guys with good first half of thier career numbers like Smith (.489 SLG)>

He got the relative SLG somehow

<or reverse racists like Foster (.480 SLG)>

That has a lot to do with anything

<who had maybe two real good years and lived off of it>

Sluggingwise, try 1975-79 plus '81. Belle never even had a 52 HR year in this homer-happy era

[UTforever22]

many would say this is a crazy suggestion, but why is Albert Belle getting no respect or consideration for the HOF. to make this case, I will compare his stats to those of Hall of Famer Ralph Kiner


HR: Belle: 381 Kiner: 369

Hits: Belle: 1726 Kiner: 1451

BA: Belle: .295 Kiner: .279

SB: Belle: 88(career high 23) Kiner: 22(career high 6)

2B: Belle: 389 Kiner: 216

RBI: Belle: 1239 Kiner: 1015

R: Belle: 974 Kiner: 971

SLG: Belle: 568 Kiner: 548

in nearly every single offensive categorey, Belle Beats Kiner, yet Kiner is in the Hall and Belle likely won't

[538280]

Belle is probably not a HR hitter as Kiner. It is important to remember the era he played in was much less friendly for power hitters. This can be evidenced by looking at the fact Kiner led his league in HRs 7 times to Belle's once.

OTOH, Belle hit a good amount more doubles than Kiner (41 per 162 versus 24), so he may be the better player. OPS+ is 143 for Belle, 148 for Kiner.

Anyway, Belle is receviing some pretty strong support in out BBFHOF. So if he's a big deal for you vote there. I'm voting for him myself.

[jalbright]

Three major reasons for Belle not getting support:

1) He regularly antagonized writers during his career

2) While he was excellent while he played, he had a short career

3) His recent legal troubles, including IIRC pleading guilty on a stalking charge are not exactly the kinds of things the Hall wants to be associated with. The rules permit consideration of such things, and combined with a), don't expect Albert to get in via the writers.

Jim Albright

[Chelle]

Ugh. Albert "Joey" Belle is a nightmare. His very name sends chills down my spine...(and his salary caused great pains to the Orioles and made our management so gun shy they still don't make trades, or sign deals to this day). I would actually bribe people NOT to vote for him (if that were possible).

[micsmith]

I was shocked that Belle received so little support on his first ballot. He's a surefire Hall of Famer to me.

How many other players could match his stats through the number of games he played, or the number of plate appearances he had, or the number of at bats he had. You won't find many who can exceed what he did, and those that did exceed him, are already in Cooperstown.

Same for JuanGon!

[KCGHOST]

Kiner didn't get elected until 20 years after his retirement so its not like the writers got in a major frenzy to put him in there. Belle has a case, but due to his short and antipathy toward the writers he may have to wait quite a while.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Kiner didn't get elected until 20 years after his retirement so its not like the writers got in a major frenzy to put him in there. Belle has a case, but due to his short and antipathy toward the writers he may have to wait quite a while.

Belle's a great player and a HOFer.

He'll eventually get there, although it won't be easy, but as time passes, his stats will be compelling.

[Skin & Bones]

I'd probably vote for him, but he probably will never get in. He's sort of like Jose Canseco behavior-wise, except we have no proof he used steroids. Though he did cork his bat, and tried to have Grimsley switch it for him.

[cbenson5]

Belle's a great player and a HOFer.

He'll eventually get there, although it won't be easy, but as time passes, his stats will be compelling.

He only got 7.7 percent of the votes during last years election. He has almost no chance of getting in. He might fall off of the ballot this year with the strong class becoming eligible for the Hall this year.

[jalbright]

He only got 7.7 percent of the votes during last years election. He has almost no chance of getting in. He might fall off of the ballot this year with the strong class becoming eligible for the Hall this year.
Not to mention the legal troubles he had this year.

[Cougar]

Belle's a great player and a HOFer.

He'll eventually get there, although it won't be easy, but as time passes, his stats will be compelling.


I'm guessing it'll almost certainly be posthumous. It'll be a little like what happened with Durocher.

[UTforever22]

Ugh. Albert "Joey" Belle is a nightmare. His very name sends chills down my spine...(and his salary caused great pains to the Orioles and made our management so gun shy they still don't make trades, or sign deals to this day). I would actually bribe people NOT to vote for him (if that were possible).

since you seem so keen to blame albert belle for tying up money, i supose you would not accept that kind of pay if it were offered to you. It is not as though he put a gun to their head and said, "pay me 13 mill a year"

[runningshoes]

I might go there next month.

Does he need a ride?

[RuthMayBond]

I might go there next month.

Does he need a ride?In a paddy wagon?

[Honus Wagner]

rank in order of HOF-ness:
McGwire
Sosa
Raffi
Belle

[baseball junkie]

I think Belle was a lock for the HOF for what he did on the field and a will be locked out for what he did off the field -- with that once exception of when he threw a baseball at a fan in the stands. That was bad.

Other than that and his apparent problem with stalking woman, I thiink the main thing keeping him out is how bad he treated the writers.

Then again if treating woman poorly is a reason for keeping a player out of the HOF, what is Kirby Puckett doing in there? Didn't he get charge with sexual assault a couple times before his pre-mature death?

[538280]

Looking at Albert Belle a bit closer, I'm staring to question his HOF worthiness , even setting aside his off the field issues (his credentials are not anywhere near as strong as Dick Allen's). For one thing, his career was, really, really short. 245 career Win Shares is certianly NOT HOF caliber, but of course Belle's case relies on his peak seasons.

Belle certainly was a great hitter at his best, but I think if you look into it more you'll see his peak was not significantly better than many other guys sitting right outside. His peak OPS+ were a little better than Frank Howard, but then Howard has much more longevity, the same career OPS+ and doens't have the other problems. He doesn't get much support. Reggie Smith has a career OPS+ only six points lower despite almost 500 more games, and was better in other phases of the game. Bobby Murcer, with fielding included probably had a better peak than Belle. Hid didn't have as many seasons close to his peak level, but then also lasted longer. He gets almost no support.

Looking at what the WS has to say, it's not that great again. Belle's three best years total 98 Win Shares. That's lower than a real lot of corner OF sitting on the outside, like Charlie Keller, Frank Howard, Sherry Magee, Dave Parker, Bobby Murcer and Ken Singleton, to name a few. I still think he may deserve it, and he's probably a better candidate than Jim Rice, but with his off field problems it's not so clear.

[Bigrcube]

Albert Belle?! You've got to be joking. Not even at gunpoint?!
Albert Belle led the league in HRs once (one @ 50).
Kiner did that 7 years in a row, with 2 @ 50+).
Kiner 6x A.S. and Belle a 5x A.S.
Albert played in way too many Band-Box tiny stadiums with short fences.

If the Writers elect him (fat chance), they should all be shot.
If the veterans committe elects him, they should all be euthanized.

[RuthMayBond]

Albert Belle?! You've got to be joking. Not even at gunpoint?!
Albert Belle led the league in HRs onceAs did Speaker

<If the Writers elect him (fat chance), they should all be shot.
If the veterans committe elects him, they should all be euthanized.>

Tell us how you REALLY feel :laugh

[KCGHOST]

If the veterans committe elects him, they should all be euthanized.


On those grounds alone I now firmly support Albert Belle's election to the HoF.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

I wrote a lengthy post, even by my standards, several months ago about Albert Belle. I may dig back and try to find it--and, if I'm successful, append it to this post. But the upshot of the post was: (1) that Albert Belle wasn't nearly as bad a person, or a teammate, as the jackals in the media made him out to be; and (2) that if you accept his numbers as legit, he's a HOF'er despite the brevity of his career.

I still believe those things to be true. I cannot believe the sportswriters are getting away with burying him as brazenly as they are. They are treating him the way they treated Kingman, and while Kingman was a better HR hitter, Belle was a much, much, much better player.

[SamtheBravesFan]

And this recent jail time will probably assure that he never gets in.

[Chisox]

I'm sure there's been worse selections, but I never rank him any higher than a top 30 all-time LF, so I'd never vote yes, but considering the way the HOF voters think, I wouldn't be too suprised or upset if he did.
His production was tremendous.
However, it happened in quite offensive settings, which too some level diminishes it, but it still quite good.
He made quite a few outs doing it. .369OBP while the league averaged .339 and hit a few GIDPs. His production per out makes terrific stats look just really good. Had little value as a runner, scoring less than 1,000 times in his career (with 381 off his bat) and 88SB. His offense is predicated on hitting alone, no bonus points that OPS doesn't pick up.
He gets no fielding points, either. His whole value is based on hitting.
His career lasted only 12 seasons, although he did retire because of injury (if he did actually "retire" or is on really long DL trip).

There is a case to be made, I'm just not going to support it.

[Lindseynelson]

The criteria is 10 years , well his (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=belleal01) 10 year streak makes guys like Foxx and Mantle shudder.RBI machine , Hr machine, and oh yeah a 300 plus hitter. Best in the game during his stretch. I hear guys talking Mattingley, get real, his best 5 years are Alberts average.Don't have to like ya just recognize ya

[-Kyle-]

Guess What? (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=48571)

[jalbright]

This is a classic case where if the thread creator had used our search function, he would have found several threads in this very forum dedicated to the discussion of Albert Belle's worthiness for the HOF. I intend to remind people of the existence of this feature every time I see a thread I know covers a player already discussed in this forum, unless there are changed circumstances, such as the earlier discussion occurred while he was active and now he's retired. Perhaps through repetition we'll at least slow the repeated reviews of the same material.

Jim Albright

[KCGHOST]

Posters like this are rarely interested in prior discussion. They want agreement with their position. Nor are they interested in the flaws in their argument.

[Brownie31]

The criteria is 10 years , well his 10 year streak makes guys like Foxx and Mantle shudder.RBI machine , Hr machine, and oh yeah a 300 plus hitter. Best in the game during his stretch. I hear guys talking Mattingley, get real, his best 5 years are Alberts average.Don't have to like ya just recognize ya

If recent news reports tell us anything, it is that Albert Belle
is certainly not an HOF human being.:mad:

Brownie31

[1905 Giants]

I agree with Brownie31. The Hall of Fame is not just about statistics, but about the impact of the person and his character. Yes, there are some HOF'ers that don't meet character standards perhaps, like Ty Cobb, but still, Belle did not impact the game or show the character that merits his vote into the Hall of Fame.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Belle is well within the mean of HOFers, both in performance and in character.

[Lindseynelson]

If recent news reports tell us anything, it is that Albert Belle
is certainly not an HOF human being.:mad:

Brownie31Ty Cobb , while simultaneously cleaning his gun and honing his spikes, told a medium he thought he was a fine choice.
You want a Hall of Fine Fellows , OK, you want a Hall of Fine Players give the Devils their due.Belle lit up MLB for his career and had injuries cut it short. Kirby who spun himself as Mr Baseball did the same and voila first ballot

[JimAbbott]

Albert Belle? No way no how. He should make the cork manufacturers HOF though

[Canibus]

Yes he (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=belleal01) was a headcase. A wifebeater. A cheater. But his numbers are worthy. Only player to ever hit 50 homeruns and 50 doubles in a season. Amazing

[Myankee4life]

There have been a ton of topics on Joey.

I like him as a player reminds me of Jimmie Foxx.

[milladrive]

But his numbers are worthy.

Where have I heard this before? :rolleyes:

[Fuzzy Bear]

Belle was a great player who helped his team win.

His numbers are worthy of HOF induction. His career was short, due to injury, but his sustained peak value is well within the HOF norm.

[milladrive]

Belle was a great player who helped his team win.

His numbers are worthy of HOF induction. His career was short, due to injury, but his sustained peak value is well within the HOF norm.

Rose was a great player who helped his team win.

His numbers are worthy of HOF induction. His career was long, without much injury, and his sustained peak value is well within the HOF norm.

:atthepc

[Fuzzy Bear]

Rose was a great player who helped his team win.

His numbers are worthy of HOF induction. His career was long, without much injury, and his sustained peak value is well within the HOF norm.

:atthepc

Albert Belle never did anything to merit a permanent ban from MLB. You know this, and you know better. You know EXACTLY why Rose is not in the HOF.

[milladrive]

A wifebeater. A cheater. But his numbers are worthy.


Albert Belle never did anything to merit a permanent ban from MLB. You know this, and you know better. You know EXACTLY why Rose is not in the HOF.

Okay, I'll play stupid for a minute. Did he beat his wife?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Okay, I'll play stupid for a minute. Did he beat his wife?

Interview Karolyn Rose sometime. I'll bet you'll be fascinated. :dance :waving :radio

[anjo25]

Surly He belongs in the hall of fame, probably most people whove hit 50+ more than once do...he hit 50 in '95, 49 in '95, hit 48 in `96 and was well on his way in '94, hitting 36 in 106 games...

[Brad Harris]

Most Seasons, 46+ HR
9 Babe Ruth
5 Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa
4 Lou Gehrig, Ken Griffey Jr., Harmon Killebrew, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez
3 Albert Belle


All Seasons, 50+ 2B, 50+ HR
1995 Albert Belle

[milladrive]

Interview Karolyn Rose sometime. I'll bet you'll be fascinated. :dance :waving :radio

Heh, you could be right. I promise you, the ignorance wasn't faked. :o

[dl4060]

Rose was a great player who helped his team win.

His numbers are worthy of HOF induction. His career was long, without much injury, and his sustained peak value is well within the HOF norm.

:atthepc


Belle never bet on baseball, never received a lifetime ban. They are two very different cases. The HOF is full of people who were not wonderful human beings. Rose does not even belong in the discussion when bringing Belle up. If Belle had received a lifetime ban you might have a point, but in this case you are really stretching.

[yankillaz]

If Dick Allen makes it to the HOF, THEN Joey can make it too. If this doesn't happens then he won't.

[538280]

If Dick Allen makes it to the HOF, THEN Joey can make it too. If this doesn't happens then he won't.

Now I'm pretty supportive of Belle, but he's no Dick Allen. Not by a longshot. It's as simple as putting their numbers in context. Allen getting in should not open the door for him, because Allen's credentials are MUCH better.

[J W]

But Allen's days with the BBWAA are over, while Belle's are just beginning (or maybe not with such a paltry rookie showing).

I'm not a fan of the "I'll elect Player X, but only after Player Y is in" method. I'd rather elect Player X and then use him as an argument for Player Y. Then maybe both players would be elected, and not neither.

So, as much as I'm disgusted by him, I vote yes for Belle. And I agree Dick Allen is among the best of all players outside the HOF.

[2Chance]

Belle and Frank Thomas were very similar for a few years, both very much feared by all pitchers. I don't particularly want to hear his speech, but think his career between the lines is worthy.

[Jim Abbott]

Anybody know if there's a cork hall of fame? Belle's in on 1st ballot

[AlecBoy006]

^HAHAHHAA!!!


That was good.

Anyway, NO CHEATERS!!!

[KCGHOST]

I usually vote against Belle, but wouldn't be upset if he got in. He did have a great peak, but that was in the homer happy 1990's. And he only had ten full season, so his counting numbers are rather weak.

[Disgruntaledmarinerfan]

I have absolutly no problem with Albert Belle as a HoFer. His statistics warrent Him such recognition, even dispite his tarnished image.

[tearforamariner]

^HAHAHHAA!!!


That was good.

Anyway, NO CHEATERS!!!

I never understood why it was more acceptable for pitchers to cheat than hitters. Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford both cheated and both are in the Hall of Fame. Lew Burdette has gotten support despite being a below-average pitcher in his career. He cheated as well.

At the same time, I've heard BBWAA voters have refused to vote for Graig Nettles solely because of the super balls incident.

I don't understand it. If anyone would have motivation to cheat, it would be the hitters. Even the best hitters fail 70% of the time.

[EvanAparra]

I never understood why it was more acceptable for pitchers to cheat than hitters. Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford both cheated and both are in the Hall of Fame. Lew Burdette has gotten support despite being a below-average pitcher in his career. He cheated as well.

At the same time, I've heard BBWAA voters have refused to vote for Graig Nettles solely because of the super balls incident.

I don't understand it. If anyone would have motivation to cheat, it would be the hitters. Even the best hitters fail 70% of the time.

It's got to be the records. The 500 HR, the 3000 hits, everyone loves these things and hates to give them up to a hitter who was cheating. Pitching, on the other hand, doesnt really have the flash and glamour of a milestone. (300 wins perhaps, but even then 500 HRs seems to get more attention, when 300 wins seems to be much harder to achieve nowadays)

[four tool]

The question about Belle comes down to is it the Hall of Recognition or the Hall of Fame? Is he truly one of the all-time greats? I'm on the fence but leaning towards no Hall of Fame. But if there were a Hall of skill or a hall of numbers, then absolutely first ballot.

[cavalier1968]

Major League Baseball (Cleveland Indians, Chicago White Sox, Baltimore Orioles):

AL Home Run leader (1995)
AL RBI leader (1993, 1995-tie, 1996)
AL Doubles leader (1995)
AL Runs leader (1995)
AL Slugging Percentage leader (1995, 1998)
AL Outfield Assist leader (RF) (1999-tie)
Named to Silver Slugger Team (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998)
All Star (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997)
First player to ever hit 50 HR and 50 Doubles (1995)
The Sporting News Player of the Year (1995)
Baseball Digest Player of the Year (1995)
Led Major Leagues in the 1990s with 1,099 RBI
Led Major Leagues in Extra Base Hits in the 1990s with 711
4th player ever to have 8 straight seasons with 30 HR and 100 RBI
Inducted into the Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame (June 2005)



cav

[AlecBoy006]

TFAM- I'm not saying it's ACCEPTABLE, but Perry and Ford both used cheating, but not BAD cheating.

Perry won 300 Games.
Ford has 10 World Series victories

[Colorado Express]

I'd vote "no", but he's clearly worthy of conversation.

[Skin & Bones]

TFAM- I'm not saying it's ACCEPTABLE, but Perry and Ford both used cheating, but not BAD cheating.

Perry won 300 Games.
Ford has 10 World Series victories

Not bad cheating?

What do you define as " bad cheating "? Is it a type of cheating that clearly has an effect on the numbers?

If it is, Doctoring the ball definitely is a form of " bad cheating " - Check out this post made by someone who took the time to do a little bit of research.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=873130&postcount=47

[Solair Wright]

I voted no because he backed out of Chicago after two years. In 1999, he returned there as an Oriole, and the crowd weren't too happy of him backing out. Then after 2000, he retired due to back problems, and that angered some Orioles fans for him backing out from another team - again.

He was a multi-million slugger, equipped with a 10 cent personality. I know that "Lefty" Carlton was one of those players, but Belle was troubled during his MLB tenure. It was due to his problems in his past, so if you want an aggresive slugger in the Hall, go with Albert "Joey" Belle.

[Jermz]

Belle is insane. I would only vote for him if it were down to 2 players on the ballot...Belle & McGwire. I might even vote for Roberto Alomar over those two, but I am not sure yet.

He could go into the Wifebeating Hall of Fame maybe. Or the "Got Lazy When He Came To The O's" Hall of Fame

[dl4060]

Belle is insane. I would only vote for him if it were down to 2 players on the ballot...Belle & McGwire. I might even vote for Roberto Alomar over those two, but I am not sure yet.

He could go into the Wifebeating Hall of Fame maybe. Or the "Got Lazy When He Came To The O's" Hall of Fame

I'm pretty sure Alomar will go into the hall of fame. He should as should Belle. They can hang out with Cobb, Hornsby, Ruth, and all the other alchoholics, wife beaters, racists, and abusive jerks who populate the hall. Character has for the most part been very little of an issue as to who enters the hall. I don't see why it should start to be now. Nevertheless, I don't blame O's and SOX fans for not thinking too highly of Prince Albert.

[KCGHOST]

There are those that think all cheating is equivalent, but that is untrue. Cheating, like crime, bears different penalties depending the level of the offense. We don't have lethal injection as the penalty for all crimes.

[Cougar]

He's off the BBWAA ballot, so we can table this conversation for 15 years or so. Que sera sera.

[mtortolero]

He's off the BBWAA ballot, so we can table this conversation for 15 years or so. Que sera sera.
Belle will have enough time to make lobby! :D
I think Belle&#180;s carrer was great but too short. And why he is free of the roids scandal when part of his carrer was just parallel to McGwire, gonzalez or Sosa.
And I don&#180;st see justice giving Belle the HOF by only ten seasons as full time player becasue then we can start to cut Dale Murphy, Dave Parker or Dave Concepcion&#180;s carrers in the same way to their first ten years as full time players too, which were their prime seasons.

[digglahhh]

I can see Belle being a fixture in the "best player not in the hall" convos had by those of future generations who never got to see him play or witness the kind of person he was.

I'm borderline on Belle; he certainly was dominant. And personality hardly matters much to me in terms of HOF credentials. I kind of want to support him, but when it comes time to vote for in a poll, I usually don't pull the trigger.

One and done is a rough fate though, he certainly merits debate.

[plask_stirlac]

Belle is insane. I would only vote for him if it were down to 2 players on the ballot...Belle & McGwire. I might even vote for Roberto Alomar over those two, but I am not sure yet.

He could go into the Wifebeating Hall of Fame maybe. Or the "Got Lazy When He Came To The O's" Hall of Fame

Was he that bad for 32 and 33 years old? Then (or earlier) with degenerative osteoarthritis in his hip, that's all she wrote but normal for that.

[Beastay]

Albert Belle's numbers certainly make him hall-worthy.

Offensively, his career mirrors Jim Rice's pretty well. If we think Jim should be in, then Albert should be in. He was also a much better defensive player than Rice, and pretty fast for a power guy.

Belle was in the 90's probably the game's most feared hitter.

Injuries shortened his career, and although he'll probably not win any congeniality awards with the fans, many of his teammates thought highly of him.

He was a hard worker at his game, and was one of those super-competitive guys.

He didn't get in conventionally because many HOF voters seem to think that how nice a guy is should play as big a role as how good a player he was, but in 15 years or so when the veteran's committee looks at him, hopefully the image of him as a ballplayer will replace his image as a sour, ornery wife-beater.

(BTW, has anyone met his wife?)

[four tool]

Belle certainly should make the hall, his personality has nothing to do with his baseball skills. Look at some of the "personalities" already in the hall.

[stuffymcinnis]

The best candidate for election is not even on the ballot .. Albert Belle .. I hated the guy, too, but this snub is absurd and speaks volumes about the election process .. the media holds grudges and voters way overvalue longevity and are addicted to meaningless milestones that can be reached during mediocre seasons

the graph below compares averages for Total Bases, Home Runs, RBI and Runs .. for Belle it is 10 straight years from 1991-2000 .. for everybody else it is the average of their 10 best totals in each category over their entire career .. at the bottom, I've included some historical players who compare with Belle .. again, I hand picked the 10 best totals in each category for all but Belle

TB HR RBI Runs
Belle 321 37 120 95
Rice 322 31 113 97
Parker 300 25 102 87
McGwire 299 48 113 95
Dawson 295 28 98 87
Murphy 291 32 97 97
Mattingly 290 21 98 87
Raines 246 12 61 102
Trammell 241 15 71 85
Baines 262 23 96 75
Justice 240 27 89 79

Musial 356 31 113 120
Aaron 354 42 123 115
Mays 358 43 114 121

Ruth 390 50 150 151

[Walt Zink]

Dunno, man. I wouldn't vote for the guy. Nothing about his career really stood out, for me. It sounds crazy, but we're talking about a guy that, if he was still playing, would probably take some of the heat off of Barry Bonds. That's how despised he was. He had some great numbers, and if he had done it for 2-3 more years, he would be closer to it. He did a LOT of very dumb things in his career, though. It's not like it was a random case here and there. I mean, hauling off and throwing a baseball at a fan full speed and hitting said fan in the chest is just really screwed up.

Also, the guy didn't even get to 2000 hits. He would've needed a couple more seasons. He was a mystery as a fielder, too. Mixed in some great assists with some mind-boggling errors.

Also, I mentioned this elsewhere, but the Hall has the right to snub him. On the ballot, it says to consider the character of the person in consideration. Is it right? Maybe not, but I am not losing sleep over him not getting in. If I had a ballot, I would most likely skip over his name, TBH.

[stuffymcinnis]

I don't buy the 2-3 more years argument .. 10 years is enough and his 10 years measure with the all-time greats

as far as having less than 2,000 hits, I don't do milestones .. career totals mean little to me .. most Hall of Famers had 10 or less truly elite years (the few who had more are no-brainers anyway) .. it only matters to me how good they were in those years

he was and still is a world-class jerk, but he threw the ball at the fan at a very young age (and the fan was also a jerk)

[stuffymcinnis]

my favorite stat i discovered from putting these numbers together

Harold Baines' career highs in each category are lower than Belle's 10-year average

[SamtheBravesFan]

my favorite stat i discovered from putting these numbers together

Harold Baines' career highs in each category are lower than Belle's 10-year average

That doesnt mean much, though. Baines isn't exactly thought of as a prime baseball player, although he did last a long time thanks to the DH.

[stuffymcinnis]

i agree, baines was a solid professional hitter and should be nowhere near the HoF discussion .. but he's on the ballot and Belle isn't, that's very revealing

[digglahhh]

There have been lots of discussions on Belle before - paging Dr. Albright you are needed in, umm... mergury.

Belle is among the best not it, that's true. If you're a peak guy, he's a no-brainer. If you're a career guy he still merits consideration, and is still good enough to be gray area.

I'd vote for him. He's a jerk, but numbers wise, his career is rather similar to Kiner's - or maybe Vald's if he retired tomorrow.

I have to issues with Kiner, I'd vote for Vlad today, and I guess I'd vote for Belle. The HOF is rife with less than stellar human beings, and Belle stands out in that regard, even relative to group that has plenty of jerks. He was incredibly productive on the diamond though.

He's still not the best candidate not in, at the very minimum Dick Allen, Santo, and Blyleven are bigger snubs.

[jalbright]

merging threads again.

[truman]

Did you know... in the 1995 World Series (Braves won in 6 games), Albert Belle was in the on deck circle when the final out was made in 3 games - all 1 run losses. How would his legacy (or HOF chances) be changed if he had the opportunity to bat in any of those games?

Belle is borderline HOF, but deserves serious consideration. Look at some comparisons:


Name Pos YRs ABs OPS+ AVG OBP SLG RC
ALBERT BELLE OF 12 5853 143 .295 .369 .564 1206
HACK WILSON OF 12 4760 144 .307 .395 .545 1030
TODD HELTON 1B 11 5663 143 .332 .430 .583 1459

[Brad Harris]

That virtually the same group of voters elected Kirby Puckett and shunned Albert Belle is extremely inconsistent and further proof that the more subjective elements of the voting guidelines are receiving far too much weight by the electorate.

[fenrir]

didnt belle cork his bat?

[Captain Cold Nose]

didnt belle cork his bat?

He was caught with a corked bat. He denied it was his own bat but it was someone else's, if I remember.

I don't think cork could help that much . . .

[fenrir]

He was caught with a corked bat. He denied it was his own bat but it was someone else's, if I remember.

I don't think cork could help that much . . .

i agree that cork doesnt help much but if he corked hes still a cheater.

[Captain Cold Nose]

i agree that cork doesnt help much but if he corked hes still a cheater.

There's more to accessing a candidacy than a unexplained two-syllable label. Evidence and discussion before judgement.

[fenrir]

There's more to accessing a candidacy than a unexplained two-syllable label. Evidence and discussion before judgement.

i looked it up and found out that jason grimsley switched the corkedbat for him. belle was suspended. besides that belle was arrested for stalking before. he also threw a baseball at a fan and chased down some trick or treaters. the guy had some major character issues.

[EdTarbusz]

Albert Belle's major character flaw was wanting to be left alone and not wanting to interact with people. I know more than a few people whp would have reacted the same way as Belle did with the Trick or Treaters.

[dgarza]

I know more than a few people whp would have reacted the same way as Belle did with the Trick or Treaters.
What's Halloween without the pranks?

[EdTarbusz]

What's Halloween without the pranks?

Better.

I grew up in that general area. If you were throwing stuff at someones house, you had to be ready to run.

[stuffymcinnis]

What kind of kid wouldn't EXPECT to be chased after egging someone's house? Those kids and their parents broke the Halloween Code of Honor when they pressed charges.

[Brad Harris]

didnt belle cork his bat?

No more or less than Sammy Sosa, so if that's the BBWAA's excuse for offing Belle's candidacy, they'd better hold Sosa to the same standards when his number is called.

[fenrir]

No more or less than Sammy Sosa, so if that's the BBWAA's excuse for offing Belle's candidacy, they'd better hold Sosa to the same standards when his number is called.

sosa shouldnt get in the hof either.

[Mike Hoban]

I just posted this on another thread so I may as well post it here too.


There is no comparison between Dick Allen and either Albert Belle or Harold Baines.

The NEWS HOF Gauge has Dick Allen as the #36 best position player of the 20th century - tied with such greats as Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount.

36. Dick Allen 314

Albert Belle is not among the top 100 position players of the century (not even close). Here are the players who he is similar to.

Mickey Vernon 241
Wally Berger 240
Pie Traynor 240
Albert Belle 239
Fred Lynn 239
Bobby Doerr 238
Ron Cey 237

As for Harold Baines - here are his comparisons.

Kenny Lofton 227
Maury Wills 227
Jim Bottomley 225
Harold Baines 224
Tony Lazzeri 224
Jose Canseco 223
Larry Gardner 223

Dick Allen has indisputable HOF numbers. Belle and Baines are not even in his league.

Author of BASEBALL'S BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers

[stuffymcinnis]

MikeHoban -- see my reply on the other thread

[Mike Hoban]

MikeHoban -- see my reply on the other thread

I did. See mine over there, also.

[Walt Zink]

Well, unfortunately for those who back him here, he made his bed, and he has to lie in it. He was a guy with some very severe character flaws, and on the HOF vote, that is part of the consideration to be a part of the hall. Moral judgement? Yes. And I agree it may not be right. I just don't think of Albert Belle as a hitter and think "Hall of Famer". I think to myself "good hitter that had some big seasons and just sort of disappeared". If he had been a different person personality-wise? I think he's in. I mean, this man lost the 1995 MVP for no less a reason than being a total douche to every member of the media. Not smart.