Wood bats - on which "side" should the ball's impact be?

[danielfromsweden]

Hello everyone!

I play baseball in Sweden and during this years dull indoor preseason my team has opted that we use wood bats to improve hitting. I´ve used them anyway for several years, but now a controversy has arised. No one seems to know for sure how to use the bat properly. The big question is where the ball should impact on the bat for it not to break easily? (grain going down to up) I think it is on the "label" side, so that the ball hits the grain from the side. Some say its the other way around - that the grain lines should be lined up to the impact .. (grains going left to right)

I realize this is difficult for me to explain with my limited english knowledge, but i hope you guys get the general idea of this question! :)

Thanks,
Daniel

PS. I hope i´m right. DS.

[bbjunkie]

Hello everyone!

I play baseball in Sweden and during this years dull indoor preseason my team has opted that we use wood bats to improve hitting. I´ve used them anyway for several years, but now a controversy has arised. No one seems to know for sure how to use the bat properly. The big question is where the ball should impact on the bat for it not to break easily? (grain going down to up) I think it is on the "label" side, so that the ball hits the grain from the side. Some say its the other way around - that the grain lines should be lined up to the impact .. (grains going left to right)

I realize this is difficult for me to explain with my limited english knowledge, but i hope you guys get the general idea of this question! :)

Thanks,
Daniel

PS. I hope i´m right. DS.

Hold the bat out in front of you with both hands. The label should be facing you.

[catcher5]

Hey guys
Yep, thatis perfect. What BB said was right, have the label facing you...but do to your lack of english knowledge, or so you said, haha, have the label up!
thats all, its the same as what he said although just in different terms i guess, and I just wanted to say good answer. Clear and to the point!

[danielfromsweden]

Thanks for your answers, however, they do not help very much unless everyones swing is uniform (which they aren't) and i´m still now sure where the ball should impact? Is it on the opposite side of the label ?

Thanks,
Daniel

[catcher5]

Ok
Withthe label being up, just look at the bat. When you're standing, arms out, label up, bring the bat back into your set position at the plate. be sure not to roll the bat in ur hands, if you do, you will switch the position of the bat. With the label being up, you will make contact n the opposite side of the label, being the "sweet spot". That part of the bat is stronger. If you hit the ball on the label, it has a greater chance of breaking because when the label is pressed onto the bat, that area of the bat becomes weak...therefore breaking easly. Be sure to hit on the oppostie side of the label!
Hope that helps more

[danielfromsweden]

Thanks alot! That sorted it out!

Sorry if i sounded irritated in my previous post. It's just that this is a looong standing cause for discussion that i would like to lay to rest.. :) I hope someone will believe me (or you actually).. Is there any source online or in a book you could quote? Or this actually childishly easy and not written down anyware?

Thanks again,
Daniel

[west coast orange and black]

hey, danny-boy. you ask something that most just take for granted. excellant!
but it is not childishly easy: we all had to learn it. however, this lesson is so elementary that i can not locate a site to link for you. :( anyone?
...........................
that said:
what has been explained to you about bat labels is true... because the bat manufacturers want to identify for the batters which side has the tightest/strongest grain.

but should ever find youself holding a bat that has not been branded, or a much-used :) bat and the label has been erased, no ned to panic... because now you know the "hit the ball with the tight grain" principle. have fun!

[Staredge]

I belive it's hit with the lines, not with the flats.

[danielfromsweden]

Thanks for the good advice! :) However some don't seem to agree as this last post shows. Do I understand correct that by "flat" you mean the label side?

..That's why i feel the need for some "authority" on this, even though I myself see the logic in hitting the label side (or the opposite of it that is).. :)

/Daniel

[Staredge]

Yes, the oval wood sections. I might be wrong.


Thanks for the good advice! :) However some don't seem to agree as this last post shows. Do I understand correct that by "flat" you mean the label side?

..That's why i feel the need for some "authority" on this, even though I myself see the logic in hitting the label side (or the opposite of it that is).. :)

/Daniel

[FlashGordon]

The way I was taught was that at the moment of impact the ball should strike the bat on a spot perpendicular (90 degrees) from the label, with the label on top so that you know for sure where it is in relation to the incoming ball. I had never realized that the label was intentionally pressed so that the ball wouldn't hit the grain dead on. It makes sense though. A ball coming at 80+ mph would certainly be like a very blunt wedge, and when chopping wood one always lines the wedge up with the grain to split it apart.

On a personal note, I had a wooden Louisville Slugger with Hal McRae's name burned into it. It split when I didn't remember to turn the label toward my ear in the set position, hitting it dead on.

[Staredge]

That's the way I understand it. You want to hit the ball with the wood like:

_________
_________
_________ <----------(ball)
_________
_________


Rather than:


|||||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| <-------- (Ball)
|||||||||||
|||||||||||



With the top one, when the bat bends it bends together. The bottom way, the layers could shear apart as it bends with the impact.

The way I was taught was that at the moment of impact the ball should strike the bat on a spot perpendicular (90 degrees) from the label, with the label on top so that you know for sure where it is in relation to the incoming ball. I had never realized that the label was intentionally pressed so that the ball wouldn't hit the grain dead on.

[danielfromsweden]

I believe it is the other way around. Just look at the bottom "picture" there are much more wood "behind" the impact. On the top picture there is nothing to support the impact. Think of it like you were to line up 10 people, like they where standing in line. All you had to do is make one fall to break the line up. Where would you push - on the front (or back of the line) or from the side?

The answer is: from the side. If you push the first guy in line the people behind will hold him up, much like the wood does in a bat if you hit it like this:

|||||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| <-------- (Ball)
|||||||||||
|||||||||||

It´s just plain 'ol physics, right?

/Daniel

[FlashGordon]

I might have been wrong in my assumption (I haven't swung a wooden bat in a long time). Here's an image from DicksSportingGoods.com (http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=15756&cp=711608.711610.693436&parentPage=family). You'll see that the label is emblazoned parallel to the grain, like this:

label
------
----------
------------- <----BALL
-------------
----------
------


PLATE


For orientation, imagine you are looking at the batter from the opposite batter's box as he swings the bat (note the roundness of the barrell). I'm guessing that there is less flex in the bat this way vs. this:



| |
| | | |
| | | | | | LABEL <---BALL
| | | | | |
| | | |
| |


I'm guessing that the flex of the bat would absorb more of the impact of the ball hitting the label as the layers flex.

[Staredge]

Thats the way I hit. Like I said, I think if you hit it the bottom way, the layers could shear apart with the flex of the bat.

As an aside, I *think* it was Yogi Berra who kept hitting on the wrong side of the bat, so H & B made his bats with the label on the wrong side. Can't remember where I saw the story. I'll have to keep looking.

[bbjunkie]

I believe it is the other way around. Just look at the bottom "picture" there are much more wood "behind" the impact. On the top picture there is nothing to support the impact. Think of it like you were to line up 10 people, like they where standing in line. All you had to do is make one fall to break the line up. Where would you push - on the front (or back of the line) or from the side?

The answer is: from the side. If you push the first guy in line the people behind will hold him up, much like the wood does in a bat if you hit it like this:

|||||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| <-------- (Ball)
|||||||||||
|||||||||||

It´s just plain 'ol physics, right?

/Daniel

If you hold the bat out in front of you with the label facing you using a batter's grip, at the point of contact (back hand palm up, front hand palm down) you will be hitting with the side opposite the label. Not having a wood bat in front of me, I'm not quite sure whether that's the tight grain side or the open grain side.

[wogdoggy]

heres an example even a foreigner can figure out...look at the grain of the bat.look at a telephone book. compare the two.see the similarities? hit the ball on the covers of the phone book ,,not on the sides.same with the bat. :clapping

[FlashGordon]

heres an example even a foreigner can figure out...look at the grain of the bat.look at a telephone book. compare the two.see the similarities? hit the ball on the covers of the phone book ,,not on the sides.same with the bat. :clappingMaybe a foreigner would have an easier time figuring out what you are saying than I did. I think you are saying the opposite of what most others have been saying here. If you hit the ball with the cover, the book bends and absorbs the impact. If you hit with the spine, the book stays rigid and the ball bounces off. If you look at the picture I posted above, it looks like the label is stamped on what would be the front cover of said telephone book. If the picture is wrong, please let me know. As I said, it's been a while since I've swung a wooden bat.

[wogdoggy]

ok maybe this will help,you want to pound the grain of the bat so it gets closer together,not so it "flares" out.the pages of the phone book are the "grains".youd want to hit it on the cover of the phone book so the pages dont flare out as opposed to on the side of the phone book wheras the pages would seperate.same as with the grain of the bat

[FlashGordon]

That goes with my first posting. I had originally compared it to chopping wood where you use the wedge (here, the ball) to pry apart the grains. But when I went to look at a photo of a bat to show that the label would be emblazoned across the grains, forcing the hitter to meet the ball with the flat part of the outer layer (as you describe), I found that the label was actually across the spot I had assumed would be best for hitting. Take a look at the photo (link is above) and let me know if it is wrong.

[Staredge]

Here's the answers from the pros:

Our bats are branded on the flat part of the grain to help players with this. You should hit our wooden bats with the brand facing up to the sky or down to the ground. With that said using the book you would hit the spine and not the cover.

Sincerely,

Louisville Slugger Customer Service

[FlashGordon]

Here's the answers from the pros:

Our bats are branded on the flat part of the grain to help players with this. You should hit our wooden bats with the brand facing up to the sky or down to the ground. With that said using the book you would hit the spine and not the cover.

Sincerely,

Louisville Slugger Customer ServiceThanks, that means the picture I linked to was accurate and my *original* posting was wrong. Hitting on the flat part of the grain would be like swinging a strut (from a car) and hitting the broadest side. Just like a strut, much of the force from the pitch and the swing of the bat would be absorbed on contact. By contrast, if you were to hit on the narrow edge of the strut, the ball would rocket off.

Another comparison: boat oars and canoe paddles are constructed so they flex very little when rowing. If they flexed you'd have to work at least twice as hard to propel yourself through the water.

[Staredge]

Well, I think it also would cause problems when the bat flexes. The bending of the bat could very well separate those layers, much like when you bend the aforementioned phone book. ;)

[bbjunkie]

That goes with my first posting. I had originally compared it to chopping wood where you use the wedge (here, the ball) to pry apart the grains. But when I went to look at a photo of a bat to show that the label would be emblazoned across the grains, forcing the hitter to meet the ball with the flat part of the outer layer (as you describe), I found that the label was actually across the spot I had assumed would be best for hitting. Take a look at the photo (link is above) and let me know if it is wrong.

Now I'm thoroughly confused. The picture you linked to shows how bats are normally labeled. But, as I wrote earlier, if you hold a bat in front of you with the label facing you, and then swing it in the prescribed manner, the side opposite the label will contact the ball. That's the other flat grain side (front of phone book). Yes, there will be more flex, but that may actually apply more force to the ball as the bat springs back. Also, being a long time canoer and kayaker, I checked my paddles. The force is applied to the flat grain side (front of phone book), consistent with my bat theory. In other words, I think Louisville slugger customer service is wrong. Is there something wrong with my understanding?

[Staredge]

I dunno. I'm thinking Louisville Slugger knows a bit about bats. ;)

I see what you're saying though. My bats show some hits off the bottom side as well. Ideally you want to hit it on the edge, although if your wrists twist too much it'll go off the bottom.

As for your paddles: I'm not surprised. They'd need some pretty big trees to get the grain the other way, along with an annoying tendency to split up the middle if you hit something solid with them.

[wogdoggy]

staredge has it right on the covers not on the sides..if you start with the label facing straight up at your nose and you swing in slow motion you will see the impact point will be on the exact opposite side of the label,whisch in every case i know of is the "phone" book cover ...if thats the impact point youve used the bat correctly

[Staredge]

staredge has it right on the covers not on the sides..if you start with the label facing straight up at your nose and you swing in slow motion you will see the impact point will be on the exact opposite side of the label,whisch in every case i know of is the "phone" book cover ...if thats the impact point youve used the bat correctly

No, I always hit it on the sides, which is what Lousville Slugger says to do. (90 degree angle to the label)

Much like licks to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop.....the world may never know.

[wogdoggy]

so you want your bat to feather? maybe our sides are the same but our explanations suck.lol.... :confused:

[Elijah]

No, I always hit it on the sides, which is what Lousville Slugger says to do. (90 degree angle to the label)




I think that explains it better than anybody has explained it so far, very simple. (90 degree angle to the label)

However, Bamboo don't have sides since it is a bunch of pieces put together.

[FlashGordon]

...the impact point will be on the exact opposite side of the label,whisch in every case i know of is the "phone" book cover ...The way you describe it, this sounds like when you make contact with the ball, the label will be facing the catcher. I believe that's wrong. It's actually not much different from hitting on the label.

[Elijah]

The way you describe it, this sounds like when you make contact with the ball, the label will be facing the catcher. I believe that's wrong. It's actually not much different from hitting on the label.



Well some beleive you hit it on the cover side but don't hit it on the label-cover side because it is weaker because of the stamp.

If that is how you were sussposed to hit it then they may have a point but I do beleive it is on the spine side (90 degree angle form the label) because I just watched a spring training game last night (rockies vs angels in tempe) and sure enough many of them had the label facing up which means they will hit it on the spine side.

Speaking of rockies vs angels, hiddengem sorry about that come back the rockies made, they had quite a rally going. I feel bad for that third baseman who made thet err. And that pick off attempt at first, the anouncers saying, why did he even do that, no reason they could think of. But that is why it is just spring straining to work on these things.

Anyways that went way off topic.

One thing I like about my bamboo bat is it doesn't matter where you hit it since, it is made up of over 20 pieces of bamboo strips.

[hiddengem]

Well some beleive you hit it on the cover side but don't hit it on the label-cover side because it is weaker because of the stamp.

If that is how you were sussposed to hit it then they may have a point but I do beleive it is on the spine side (90 degree angle form the label) because I just watched a spring training game last night (rockies vs angels in tempe) and sure enough many of them had the label facing up which means they will hit it on the spine side.

Speaking of rockies vs angels, hiddengem sorry about that come back the rockies made, they had quite a rally going. I feel bad for that third baseman who made thet err. And that pick off attempt at first, the anouncers saying, why did he even do that, no reason they could think of. But that is why it is just spring straining to work on these things.

Anyways that went way off topic.

One thing I like about my bamboo bat is it doesn't matter where you hit it since, it is made up of over 20 pieces of bamboo strips.


I don't recall an error at 3rd.

[bbjunkie]

(quoting wogdoggy)The way you describe it, this sounds like when you make contact with the ball, the label will be facing the catcher. I believe that's wrong. It's actually not much different from hitting on the label.

Wogdoggy has it right. I don't know why it would be any different hitting on the label. It may be because we were always taught to have the label facing us. Or, it may be because bats aren't taken from the center of a tree. Therefore, the grain will be curving slightly in on one side of the bat and out on the other when viewed from the end.

[Elijah]

I don't recall an error at 3rd.

My bad HG, must have been the rockies then, I just tuned in to the game replay in the 7th or 8th inning. I was flipping through the comcast guide to see if any baseball was on and it was a replay later at night. I was so excited, I haven't seen a game on TV in forever (at least it feels like it), always basketball this and that everytime I check, even sportscenter was 90% basketball last night, I thought they would have some more spring training action

My short term memory isn't that great anyways. I still thought there was one on the rockies and the angels about the same time, not neccesarily the 9th but around there.

Well Good luck HG, spring training must be a blast either way, getting to be around all of those other players who actually try to get better every day. Trainers who give advice how to treat injuries and how to eat etc.

I can't wait to be on a real team someday.

[Elijah]

Another link for the argument. Diagrams/pics too!

http://www.sambat.com/learning_to_hit_with_wood.htm

[FlashGordon]

Thanks Elijah! That is a great explanation and set of diagrams!

[bbjunkie]

The explanation makes sense. I think that means that what I was taught as a kid was wrong.

[wogdoggy]

Another link for the argument. Diagrams/pics too!

sounds like you'll be feathering alot bats that way.i'll hit it like diagram A ..diagram B will feather your wood.

[Imapotato]

I believe it is the other way around. Just look at the bottom "picture" there are much more wood "behind" the impact. On the top picture there is nothing to support the impact. Think of it like you were to line up 10 people, like they where standing in line. All you had to do is make one fall to break the line up. Where would you push - on the front (or back of the line) or from the side?

The answer is: from the side. If you push the first guy in line the people behind will hold him up, much like the wood does in a bat if you hit it like this:

|||||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| <-------- (Ball)
|||||||||||
|||||||||||

It´s just plain 'ol physics, right?

/Daniel


Nope it's like architecture

What side would absorb more impact? Like houses on a fault line, you want more surface area ...and some other techincal jargon I can't recall...an engineer would know :)

But you want the top one...the bottom one would bend...and that is not what you want when you hit the ball...you want the bat to absorb the kinetic energy and push it out, causing more energy into the ball...

[Sorpe]

The strongest part of the bat is where the grain lines are straightest. (As an aside, the more closely together the grain lines, the stronger.) The weakest part of the bat is where the grain lines are not straight: they form arches or cathedrals. The label is ALWAYS put on the arches or cathedrals. (Does not apply necessarily to composite bats.)

Every bat has two areas of arches: where the label is and the exact opposite part of the bat. Every bat has two areas where the grain is straight.

Hit the ball on the part (there are two, exactly opposite each other) of the bat that has straight grain. Do not hit the ball on the arches. For anyone who has the standard swing of palm up, palm down at contact, you start with the label facing up or facing down. That way, when you swing, the bat will rotate 90 degrees and the ball will hit where the wood grain is straight.

[bbjunkie]

Hit the ball on the part (there are two, exactly opposite each other) of the bat that has straight grain. Do not hit the ball on the arches. For anyone who has the standard swing of palm up, palm down at contact, you start with the label facing up or facing down. That way, when you swing, the bat will rotate 90 degrees and the ball will hit where the wood grain is straight.
I think this further confuses the issue. It seems to me to be more accurate to say that at the point of impact the label should be facing up or down. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "...start with the label facing up or facing down." At the start of what?

I don't think I'm arguing with your basic premise that the impact should be on the straight grain, just unclear what you're calling the start.

[MrSurprise]

found this at
http://store.yahoo.com/barnstablebat/useandcare.html
http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/barnstablebat_1884_1380440

[J.K.]

I think the label is up in these cases.

http://www.fondosescritorio.net/wallpapers/Deportes/Baseball/Sluggers-075-Mark-Mcgwire.htm
http://www.lamannasbaseballbulletin.com/LBB_Albert_Pujols_Spring_2003.jpg
http://www.fondosescritorio.net/wallpapers/Deportes/Baseball/Sluggers-007-Sammy-Sosa.jpg

[wogdoggy]

great diagram ..I just cant see how if you consatntly hit it there the bat wont feather.It may indeed be the "HARDER" part of the bat but i would imagine youd feather bats fairly rapidly especiall ash.

[MrSurprise]

i was given a maple batting cage sam bat JB1 that was used by bobby hill from the pittsburgh pirates (just got traded this year to some other team) and he used only one side of the bat... the only thing it seems that you can see the grains better, because the black stain is starting to wear off... not much feathering. But I don't know how much he used it... it seems to have been pretty well used. It is from 04 and is still working as my cage bat.

[hiddengem]

Its not that tough guys. When you put the bat in your hands, have the sticker or burn of the bat maker pointing to the sky when you are at your contact point.

The Bat is much stronger in this position because all bat companys put the lable on top of the grains, not on the side of them. Its the same as if I were to lay a 2x4 in between to blocks with the 4 inch side laying flat. If I put some thing heavy in the middle of the 2 blocks the 2x4 is going to bend, possibly even break. If I were to change that and put the 2 inch side laying flat it would be much much stronger and bend very little if any at all.

[wogdoggy]

Its not that tough guys. When you put the bat in your hands, have the sticker or burn of the bat maker pointing to the sky when you are at your contact point.


which in turn makes contact on the EXACT opposite side of the label.in surprises diagram,,,do you agree with him? If you do wouldnt constant hitting at that point feather the bat?

[East Coast Bat Co]

If you have trouble figuring this out, I would recommend that you use maple. Ash wood is much more likely to sepereate at the grain. If you break a maple bat, it is more likely to bust into two pieces. However, maple can actually become better the more you use it which is the complete opposite of ash.

[tom.guerry]

of course actual experiments never turn out exactly as you might expect,that's why they paly the games or do the experiment I guess:

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/wood-grain.html

[Ed_G]

I am new to this forum and current stationed in Europe, but have built furniture and turned wood on lathes since 1986 and turned bats since 2002. First ash is a ring-porous wood, which in simple terms means the early wood consists of the pores or small tubes (these are generally the dark grain in the ash bat), the latewood consists of the denser (lighter colored) wood between what most people would call grains or growth rings. Ash and to a lesser extent maple (rock or sugar) gain the greatest strength against shocks in this case hitting a baseball along the side grain as illustrated by the website in post #42.

When hit along the label or its opposite side on what is called face-grain the ash bat has a greater possibility to split or have internal damage as the early wood or grain structure can not generally rebound from the shock of compression and tends to separate and split the grains. Feathering or more aptly chipping mentioned by Wogdoggy is caused when the ball is hit not quite perpendicular to the label (45 degrees or so), compacting and separating the early wood. This was kept to a minimum in the past by players ‘boning’ their bats, which compressed the surface of the ash bat, though is hard to do as most bats have finishes today.

The best ash bats have the straightest grain along the length of the bat (as viewed when looking down the length in good lighting) and the fewest grains when viewed on end (end of the barrel). Most quality bats will have 9-13 grains or growth rings when viewed on end. I have an ash fungo bat I made early last year that I have used in coaching or assisting three youth teams here in Germany along with my son, which is a long way of saying I generally have hit 120-150 balls/day for infield and out field practice and there is no feathering or chipping only the early wood along the side-grain is compacted slightly from the late wood. The ball is best hit 90 degrees to the label and about 6in/15cm from the end of the barrel along the sweet-spot (which eludes to the website from post #49), which you can find by tapping a baseball along the barrel of a bat.