How is Ted Simmons not in HOF?

[pjwvolk]

should ted "simba" simmons be in the hall? he was the second best catcher in the 70's (next to Bench) and his career numbers are better than a HOFer, Carter. he consistently had a .300 or higher AVG, and hit 20+ homers 3 or 4 times. isnt that Hall worthy?

[RuthMayBond]

Simmons is way behind Carter in PO, A, leading league in either, and not quite so good in SB allowed/CS, FWIW

[DoubleX]

At the very least, Simmons deserved a lot more consideration than the one and done treatment he received from the writers.

[pjwvolk]

Simmons is way behind Carter in PO, A, leading league in either, and not quite so good in SB allowed/CS, FWIW

i am not talking about defense here, most will say that simmons lacked a little in the defensive category, but simmons should make it just because of his offensive ability. he at least deserved to last more than one year of hall of fame voting.

[Captain Cold Nose]

i am not talking about defense here, most will say that simmons lacked a little in the defensive category, but simmons should make it just because of his offensive ability. he at least deserved to last more than one year of hall of fame voting.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone around here who would argue that point. Simmons is at the top of the list of writer snubs.

He was a fine player, a local guy I wish the Tigers would have had, although Lance Parrish was not much of a drop off.

[julusnc]

I would easily vote for Simmons for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[RuthMayBond]

I would say that Simmons should be the next catcher elected among eligibles (unless they fool around until after IRod and Piazza have been retired at least five years).

[nightal]

CAREER
MODERN (1900-2003)
C
PLATE APPEARANCES >= 5000

AVERAGE AVG
1 Mickey Cochrane .320
2 Mike Piazza .319
3 Bill Dickey .313
4 Ernie Lombardi .306
5 Ivan Rodriguez .304
6 Manny Sanguillen .298
7 Gabby Hartnett .297
8 Ted Simmons .292
9 Thurman Munson .292
10 Wally Schang .288
11 Yogi Berra .285
12 Walker Cooper .285
13 Jimmie Wilson .284
14 Rick Ferrell .281
15 Muddy Ruel .275
16 Tim McCarver .272
17 Terry Steinbach .271
18 Carlton Fisk .269
19 Johnny Bench .267
20 Gus Mancuso .265

C

BPA BPA
1 Mike Piazza .581
2 Mickey Cochrane .557
3 Bill Dickey .532
4 Gabby Hartnett .531
5 Johnny Bench .514
6 Yogi Berra .510
7 Wally Schang .503
8 Carlton Fisk .496
9 Ivan Rodriguez .491
10 Darrell Porter .474
11 Gary Carter .470
12 Walker Cooper .470
13 Ted Simmons .468
14 Ernie Lombardi .460
15 Lance Parrish .457
16 Frankie Hayes .451
17 Bill Freehan .449
18 Sherm Lollar .448
19 Rick Ferrell .441
20 Terry Steinbach .433

C

DOUBLES 2B
1 Ted Simmons 413
2 Carlton Fisk 398
3 Gabby Hartnett 396
4 Ivan Rodriguez 380
5 Gary Carter 351
6 Bill Dickey 343
7 Johnny Bench 342
8 Mickey Cochrane 333
9 Rick Ferrell 324
10 Benito Santiago 312
11 Yogi Berra 310
12 Lance Parrish 305
13 Bob Boone 303
14 Tony Pena 298
15 Ernie Lombardi 277
16 Terry Steinbach 273
17 Luke Sewell 272
18 Mike Piazza 264
19 Rollie Hemsley 257
20 Jimmie Wilson 252

C

HITS H
1 Carlton Fisk 2269
2 Ted Simmons 2116
3 Yogi Berra 2043
4 Bill Dickey 1969
5 Gary Carter 1956
6 Gabby Hartnett 1912
7 Ivan Rodriguez 1875
8 Bob Boone 1838
9 Johnny Bench 1811
10 Ernie Lombardi 1792
11 Lance Parrish 1782
12 Benito Santiago 1776
13 Mike Piazza 1708
14 Rick Ferrell 1692
15 Tony Pena 1687
16 Mickey Cochrane 1652
17 Thurman Munson 1558
18 Al Lopez 1547
19 Jim Sundberg 1493
20 Bill Freehan 1459


C

HOMERUNS HR
1 Carlton Fisk 366
2 Mike Piazza 358
3 Johnny Bench 356
4 Yogi Berra 336
5 Lance Parrish 324
6 Gary Carter 307
7 Roy Campanella 242
8 Gabby Hartnett 236
9 Ivan Rodriguez 231
10 Ted Simmons 222
11 Javier Lopez 214
12 Benito Santiago 211
13 Bill Dickey 202
14 Todd Hundley 199
15 Ernie Lombardi 190
16 Bill Freehan 182
17 Darrell Porter 181
18 Del Crandall 179
19 Walker Cooper 173
20 Andy Seminick 164

C

ISOLATED POWER ISO
1 Mike Piazza .252
2 Johnny Bench .215
3 Yogi Berra .198
4 Gabby Hartnett .192
5 Lance Parrish .188
6 Carlton Fisk .188
7 Ivan Rodriguez .184
8 Walker Cooper .178
9 Gary Carter .178
10 Bill Dickey .173
11 Darrell Porter .161
12 Ted Simmons .161
13 Mickey Cochrane .158
14 Ernie Lombardi .154
15 Benito Santiago .152
16 Del Crandall .150
17 Terry Steinbach .149
18 Bill Freehan .147
19 Frankie Hayes .141
20 Sherm Lollar .138

C

OPS OPS
1 Mike Piazza .959
2 Mickey Cochrane .897
3 Bill Dickey .868
4 Gabby Hartnett .858
5 Ivan Rodriguez .832
6 Yogi Berra .832
7 Johnny Bench .826
8 Ernie Lombardi .818
9 Ted Simmons .808
10 Wally Schang .800
11 Carlton Fisk .799
12 Walker Cooper .796
13 Gary Carter .773
14 Darrell Porter .762
15 Sherm Lollar .759
16 Thurman Munson .756
17 Lance Parrish .753
18 Terry Steinbach .746
19 Bill Freehan .745
20 Frankie Hayes .744


C

OWP OWP
1 Mike Piazza .704
2 Bill Dickey .644
3 Mickey Cochrane .643
4 Yogi Berra .629
5 Gabby Hartnett .610
6 Johnny Bench .607
7 Wally Schang .592
8 Ted Simmons .591
9 Carlton Fisk .575
10 Ernie Lombardi .575
11 Thurman Munson .571
12 Darrell Porter .567
13 Gary Carter .557
14 Bill Freehan .547
15 Walker Cooper .543
16 Ivan Rodriguez .534
17 Tim McCarver .515
18 Sherm Lollar .508
19 Manny Sanguillen .504
20 Mike Scioscia .498
C

RBI RBI
1 Yogi Berra 1369
2 Carlton Fisk 1288
3 Johnny Bench 1259
4 Bill Dickey 1209
5 Ted Simmons 1195
6 Gabby Hartnett 1179
7 Gary Carter 1157
8 Mike Piazza 1107
9 Lance Parrish 1070
10 Ernie Lombardi 990
11 Ivan Rodriguez 914
12 Benito Santiago 897
13 Roy Campanella 856
14 Mickey Cochrane 832
15 Bob Boone 826
16 Walker Cooper 812
17 Sherm Lollar 808
18 Darrell Porter 805
19 Terry Steinbach 745
20 Rick Ferrell 734 C

RCAA RCAA
1 Mike Piazza 433
2 Bill Dickey 339
3 Yogi Berra 312
4 Mickey Cochrane 303
5 Gabby Hartnett 254
6 Johnny Bench 247
7 Ted Simmons 217
8 Carlton Fisk 216
9 Gene Tenace 160
10 Joe Torre 159
11 Wally Schang 152
12 Gary Carter 142
13 Ernie Lombardi 138
14 Roy Campanella 135
15 Roger Bresnahan 132
16 Darrell Porter 123
17 Smoky Burgess 118
18 Mickey Tettleton 115
19 Thurman Munson 113
T20 Chris Hoiles 99
T20 Jason Kendall 99

C

RCAP RCAP
1 Mike Piazza 528
2 Bill Dickey 473
3 Yogi Berra 430
4 Mickey Cochrane 425
5 Gabby Hartnett 364
6 Carlton Fisk 360
7 Johnny Bench 347
8 Ted Simmons 321
9 Gary Carter 251
10 Wally Schang 249
11 Ivan Rodriguez 244
12 Ernie Lombardi 241
13 Joe Torre 222
14 Roger Bresnahan 214
15 Roy Campanella 206
16 Smoky Burgess 194
17 Darrell Porter 193
18 Jorge Posada 181
19 Jason Kendall 178
T20 Gene Tenace 177
T20 Mickey Tettleton 177

C

RUNS CREATED RC
1 Carlton Fisk 1320
2 Bill Dickey 1223
3 Yogi Berra 1214
4 Gabby Hartnett 1179
5 Mike Piazza 1130
6 Ted Simmons 1116
7 Johnny Bench 1109
8 Mickey Cochrane 1104
9 Gary Carter 1090
10 Ivan Rodriguez 972
11 Lance Parrish 924
12 Ernie Lombardi 910
13 Rick Ferrell 900
14 Darrell Porter 816
15 Benito Santiago 806
16 Wally Schang 805
17 Bob Boone 783
18 Bill Freehan 779
19 Sherm Lollar 775
20 Roy Campanella 758 C

RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Mike Piazza 7.85
2 Mickey Cochrane 7.73
3 Bill Dickey 7.21
4 Gabby Hartnett 6.57
5 Yogi Berra 6.15
6 Wally Schang 6.04
7 Ivan Rodriguez 5.69
8 Johnny Bench 5.69
9 Ernie Lombardi 5.64
10 Ted Simmons 5.49
11 Carlton Fisk 5.47
12 Walker Cooper 5.29
13 Rick Ferrell 5.24
14 Darrell Porter 5.14
15 Gary Carter 5.04
16 Sherm Lollar 4.97 C

RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Mike Piazza 7.85
2 Mickey Cochrane 7.73
3 Bill Dickey 7.21
4 Gabby Hartnett 6.57
5 Yogi Berra 6.15
6 Wally Schang 6.04
7 Ivan Rodriguez 5.69
8 Johnny Bench 5.69
9 Ernie Lombardi 5.64
10 Ted Simmons 5.49
11 Carlton Fisk 5.47
12 Walker Cooper 5.29
13 Rick Ferrell 5.24
14 Darrell Porter 5.14
15 Gary Carter 5.04
16 Sherm Lollar 4.97
17 Frankie Hayes 4.91
18 Thurman Munson 4.82
19 Bill Freehan 4.79 C

SECONDARY AVERAGE SEC
1 Mike Piazza .364
2 Johnny Bench .339
3 Mickey Cochrane .328
4 Darrell Porter .324
5 Gabby Hartnett .304
6 Carlton Fisk .295
7 Yogi Berra .291
8 Wally Schang .287
9 Bill Dickey .282
10 Gary Carter .281
11 Lance Parrish .274
12 Frankie Hayes .269
13 Sherm Lollar .265
14 Ted Simmons .258
15 Bill Freehan .251
16 Ivan Rodriguez .249
17 Walker Cooper .247
18 Rick Dempsey .240
19 John Roseboro .237
20 Butch Wynegar .236

C

TOTAL AVERAGE TA
1 Mike Piazza .955
2 Mickey Cochrane .947
3 Bill Dickey .857
4 Gabby Hartnett .845
5 Wally Schang .822
6 Johnny Bench .798
7 Yogi Berra .791
8 Carlton Fisk .763
9 Ivan Rodriguez .761
10 Ted Simmons .745
11 Darrell Porter .744
12 Ernie Lombardi .734
13 Gary Carter .721
14 Walker Cooper .716
15 Sherm Lollar .714
16 Rick Ferrell .706
17 Frankie Hayes .692
18 Bill Freehan .691
19 Lance Parrish .680
20 Thurman Munson .668

C

TOTAL BASES TB
1 Carlton Fisk 3855
2 Yogi Berra 3459
3 Gary Carter 3288
4 Ted Simmons 3281
5 Johnny Bench 3265
6 Gabby Hartnett 3144
7 Lance Parrish 3113
8 Bill Dickey 3062
9 Mike Piazza 3058
10 Ivan Rodriguez 3010
11 Benito Santiago 2801
12 Ernie Lombardi 2693
13 Bob Boone 2508
14 Mickey Cochrane 2470
15 Tony Pena 2360
16 Bill Freehan 2289
17 Terry Steinbach 2254
18 Darrell Porter 2211 C

WALKS BB
1 Rick Ferrell 931
2 Darrell Porter 875
3 Mickey Cochrane 857
4 Carlton Fisk 839
5 Johnny Bench 813
6 Gary Carter 776
7 Wally Schang 745
8 Ted Simmons 720
9 Gabby Hartnett 703
10 Jim Sundberg 699
11 Bill Dickey 678
12 Sherm Lollar 671
13 Yogi Berra 669
14 Bob Boone 663
15 Ray Schalk 638
16 Mickey Tettleton 635
17 Butch Wynegar 626
18 Lance Parrish 612
19 Muddy Ruel 606
20 Mike Piazza 598

There is the batting side of it. I'll do a study after the OU game tonight.
If someone else wants to do defense,great.

He IS a HOFer.


Ok, using the old 20pts. for 1st, down to 1pt for 20th.
here goes:

291-Mike Piazza
287-Bill Dickey*
285-Gabby Hartnett*
281-Yogi Berra*
264-Carlton Fisk*
263-Johnny Bench*
256-Mickey Cochrane*
233-Ted Simmons
196-Gary Carter*
193-Ivan Rodriguez
157-Ernie Lombardi*
149-Wally Schang
123-Darrell Porter
112-Lance Parrish
102-Rick Ferrell*
82-Walker Cooper
60-Benito Santiago
52-Sherm Lollar
46-Bob Boone
41-Bill Freehan

*-Hall of Famer


Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez will be Hall of Famers when eligible, leaving Ted Simmons alone among the top 10 not enshrined.

Simmons, offensively, matches up very well with the HOFers.

al

[J W]

That particular list shows a sharp dropoff from Simmons to Carter, and from Rodriguez to Lombardi...

I consider Simmons right on that borderline, or rather that's where he should be. He would be in my personal HOF, because I feel that some semblance of continuity should be held in numbers thoughout the positions (C is second scarcest behind 3B in the Hall, and even then, several of them are iffy picks).

[santotohof]

Yes he should.He was overshadowed by Bench and played during a time of fine catchers,Sanguillen,Fisk, Munson etc but doggone it he could flat hit and steady. I posted similar to this last year and also believe Al Belle should be shown in.

[pjwvolk]

what do you think (poll version this time)

[leecemark]

--"Of course" is stronger than I would be likely to phase it, but his cumlative hitting record as a catcher is right up near the top. He was an okay defensive catcher as a young player, although he fell off pretty hard as he aged. He, Joe Torre and Bill Freehan are the three best catchers not in and it wouldn't be hard to pick three worse current Coopertown catchers to trade out for them if that was the way these things are done. I think Simmons will eventually get picked by the VC.

[DoubleX]

I don't think anyone will ever again be picked by the VC under its present format.

[julusnc]

Ted Simmons was a great hitter and catcher considering the era in which he played.

[Matthew C.]

Simmons had the most hits of any catcher...ever. His defense is underatted, and well, he is a Cardinal. Enough for me.

[RuthMayBond]

Simmons has a better CS% than Posada (and led his league in assists more times than Bench, Bresnahan, Schang, CBennett). Now maybe it's the era.

[DoubleX]

Simmons has a better CS% than Posada (and led his league in assists more times than Bench, Bresnahan, Schang, CBennett). Now maybe it's the era.

I suppose the comparison isn't really apt unless you believe that Posada will eventually have a decent Hall of Fame case?

[The Commissioner]

Near the end of his ML tenure, I had thought that he had accrued a Hall of Fame worthy career. I was always surprised that he has received as little support as he has.

[moviegeekjan]

Near the end of his ML tenure, I had thought that he had accrued a Hall of Fame worthy career. I was always surprised that he has received as little support as he has.
World Series results often color the perception HOF voters have of candidates... Herzog traded Simmons for his kinda catcher in Porter, furthering the perception that Simba wasn't adequate defensively or a "winner." Had Simmons stood out in the '82 series, he might have received more recognition and support.

[therealnod]

World Series results often color the perception HOF voters have of candidates... Herzog traded Simmons for his kinda catcher in Porter, furthering the perception that Simba wasn't adequate defensively or a "winner." Had Simmons stood out in the '82 series, he might have received more recognition and support.
In Bill James' This Time Let's Not Eat the Bones James cites Simmons' unwillingness to move out from behind the plate.


If Whitey Herzog didn't have the guts to run Ted Simmons out of St. Louis, he might as well have quit on the spot. Because if he didn't, from that moment on he was not the man-a-ger of anything.

The man-a-ger thing is from an earlier reference in the essay to the movie Ragtime.

Enjoy the Bill James reference Commissioner. :D

[RuthMayBond]

I suppose the comparison isn't really apt unless you believe that Posada will eventually have a decent Hall of Fame case?Do you believe Bench has a decent Hall of Fame case? ;)

[AG2004]

Since I did a Keltner List for Freehan, I might as well do one for Ted Simmons.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He was the best player for St. Louis from 1975 to 1978, but the level of competition wasn’t that high. Sometimes he was the team’s only all-star.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

No. Being in the same league as Johnny Bench didn’t help.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Not really – he was above average in 1982, but didn’t have 20 win shares.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Yes, for a few seasons.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

No.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Similarity Scores: Alan Trammell, Carlton Fisk, Joe Torre, Lou Whitaker, Gary Carter, Joe Cronin, Barry Larkin, Ryne Sandberg, Buddy Bell, Bobby Doerr. Half are in, and a couple more could be, so I’ll say yes.

Catchers, Career Win Shares (+/-30): Carter 337, Hartnett 325, Simmons 315, Torre 315, Dickey 314. Yes; Simmons is tied for seventh.

Top 3 seasons, win shares (+/-10): Campanella 94, Fisk 94, Freehan 90, Cochrane 89, Howard 89, Dickey 87, Simmons 86, Bresnahan 83, Daulton 83, Tenace 83, Hartnett 80. Six out of ten.

Top 5 consecutive seasons, win shares (+/- 15): Cochrane 142, Carter 141, Campanella 134, Dickey 132, Tenace 127, Simmons 127, Freehan 126, Torre 126, Howard 119, Bresnahan 116, Hartnett 114. Simmon’s near the cut-off line, but he’s tied for eighth place overall.

Win Shares per 162 games (+/- 2.5): Torre 23.10, Haller 22.41, Daulton 22.19, Schang 21.57, Simmons 20.78, Howard 20.49, Parrish 20.21, Porter 20.18, Tettleton 20.07, Steinbach 19.40, Lollar 19.33, Lombardi 19.06, Cooper 19.03, Duke Farrell 18,97, Roseboro 18.50, Crandall 18.43. Nope.

I’d give Simmons a qualified yes here.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

Black Ink 0, Gray Ink 95, HOF Standards 44.5. Only one post-1920 HOF catcher has a black ink score above 8. Simmons is ahead of eight of the nine post-1920 HOF catchers in Gray Ink, however. HOF Standards is competitive, and he’s ahead of three of the nine; for catchers, a score of 40 is usually good enough for admission. So I’d say yes.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Not really. He was about average defensively at his peak, and truly bad defensive catchers usually don’t manage to play 1,771 games behind the plate.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

I’d say Santop and Mackey are better. Among eligible ML catchers, he’s in a close race with Torre and Freehan. Bill James lists him as the best eligible major league catcher who is not in the Hall of Fame.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

His top finish in MVP voting was sixth, in 1975. He had one season with 30 win shares, and an additional three with 28.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Simmons was named an All-Star eight times, which would put him on the HOF borderline.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

I don’t know. If you added some average players to the Cardinals, and gave them average pitching, they could have made a run for it.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not really, for the last three of these questions. However, he is the career leader in hits and doubles among major league catcher. Simmons made the top 100 lists in career hits and career doubles; he is the only catcher to make the top 100 in either list.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I know.

Looking over the evidence, I would say Simmons belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[Lindseynelson]

Ted Simmons was a great switch hitting player who was top 10 offensively while being a first rate backstop

[KCGHOST]

Simmons, a superb hitting catcher, is usually considered to have been a marginall defender. Simmons and Wally Schang are very comparable catchers who are on the outside looking in. Not sure either is an HoFer, but they have a case.

[candy curveball cummings]

Ted Simmons was a great switch hitting player who was top 10 offensively while being a first rate backstop

I agree. I feel Simmons and Torre are the most overlooked catchers. I'd probably give the edge offensively to Torre, but Simmons caught 800 more game than Joe did.

Statistics [I've bolded all stats that Ted Simmons leads in compared to these two Hall of Fame Catchers]:

Gary Carter-
.262 BA | .335 OBP | .439 SLG | 115 OPS+ | 5.10 RC/27
2092 Hits | 324 Home Runs | 1225 RBI | 1025 Runs

Carlton Fisk-
.269 BA | .341 OBP | .437 SLG | 117 OPS+ | 5.37 RC/27
2356 Hits | 376 Home Runs | 1330 RBI | 1276 Runs

Ted Simmons-
.285 BA | .348 OBP | .437 SLG | 119 OPS+ | 5.48 RC/27
2472 Hits | 248 Home Runs | 1389 RBI | 1074 Runs

[64Cards]

Ted was a very good hitter although even in his prime, if you were in a clutch situation, late in a game, I'd rather see someone else up. It's anecdotal eveidence, but it sure seemed like Ted would have a lot of big numbers in routs. Still, a hell of a hitter.

Defensively, at his very best, he was very average. When Herzog took over in June of 1980, he watched Ted behind the plate for the rest of the season and decided he needed to sign Darrell Porter as a free agent to catch. It wasn't only that Ted wasn't too great at blocking pitches or throwing our runners, but as Whitey mentioned the other teams wouldn't even bother using a out to sacrifice runners. So he was going to put Ted at 1B and move Hernandez to LF, but Ted decided he didn't want to do that, so Whitey traded him to Milwaukee.

[JimAbbott]

Yep, there's a joke for you, carter's in there and Simmons not. what a sham

[2Chance]

He's not overlooked here. It's actually nice to see more well-balanced opinions here, because he gets a lot of love at BBF. Sometimes it's merely a case of hero worship, sometimes it is more an appreciation of a fine career.

As stated, he was good with the bat, but a .285 average doesn't bowl the voters over, even at the most difficult position. While he was playing I doubt anybody saw him as a sure thing for the Hall of Fame. "First rate backstop" is one description you would never hear. Adequate, around average, maybe even better than average, but not first rate. He was, for his time, one of the best in the game, but was always overshadowed by one or two catchers who were better at their position.

[candy curveball cummings]

He's not overlooked here. It's actually nice to see more well-balanced opinions here, because he gets a lot of love at BBF. Sometimes it's merely a case of hero worship, sometimes it is more an appreciation of a fine career.

As stated, he was good with the bat, but a .285 average doesn't bowl the voters over, even at the most difficult position. While he was playing I doubt anybody saw him as a sure thing for the Hall of Fame. "First rate backstop" is one description you would never hear. Adequate, around average, maybe even better than average, but not first rate. He was, for his time, one of the best in the game, but was always overshadowed by one or two catchers who were better at their position.


All around, good points. I'm not sure his .285 Average has anything to do with him not enshrined, other than voters don't feel it's enough to make up for his "average" defense, which is probably what you were saying. His .285 Average is better than 6 Hall of Fame catchers, and is the same as Yogi Berra's career mark.

I think you touched on the most important reason, in my opinion, Ted Simmons is not in the Hall of Fame. He played at the same time as Bench, Fisk, and Carter. Bench is probably the best ever. Fisk and Carter were better defensively than Simmons and also got more attention than he did.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Simmons had a terrible defensive reputation while active. It was a reputation that was based in part on his throwing arm (the most overrated part of catching) and in part in his comparision to Bench. Post-career, there has been a reassessment of Simmons' defense, which is now considered to be a minor plus.

Is the reassessment correct? If so, it came too late; Simmons was one-and-done in the balloting. It will require a rule change for Simmons to be enshrined in Cooperstown.

[Wee Willie]

Yep, there's a joke for you, carter's in there and Simmons not. what a sham
Uh...why is it a sham??

Carter was MUCH better defensively than Ted and almost as good offensively. Ted has a case for being in, but Carter was clearly better overall.

[Freakshow]

It will require a rule change for Simmons to be enshrined in Cooperstown.
Simmons will be eligible for the veterans committee election in 2011.

Simmons holds the record for career hits for his position. Can you imagine the leader in hits at any other position having difficulty making the Coop? It's ridiculous. He'd have to be Ernie Lombardi behind the plate not to deserve it...wait, they elected him. Hmm.

Most every comparative poll we've had at BBF puts Ted in the HOF circle. I think you need a better reason than, "Gee, he just never seemed like a hall of famer" to keep him out.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Simmons holds the record for career hits for his position. Can you imagine the leader in hits at any other position having difficulty making the Coop? It's ridiculous. He'd have to be Ernie Lombardi behind the plate not to deserve it...wait, they elected him. Hmm.


You would think that would be a big deal, but it seems as if people just blow that off.

How many hits, by the way, did Simmons get as a catcher and how many did he get at other spots. Does anyone know?

[538280]

Count me in as a Simmons supporter, but as someone who doesn't really care about him holding the all time record for hits by a catcher. I don't understand the big deal with records and league leaderships and such. Does it actually equal value on the field? Well, sure, the guy who's the all time leader in hits at a position is likely to be valuable, but that requires inspection. If you do, you'll find Simmons is far from the best hitting catcher of all time, though he was a very good hitter, and he is probably good enough to get in despite his defensive shortcomings.

[mrrick]

One of the things that is overlooked about Ted Simmons is his consistent doubles hitting. He is overlooked mostly because he was not a home run hitter of the top magnitude--yet still averaging around 20 per season--but he averaged 30 doubles or more in his prime (compared to Yogi's low 20's, for example). Even Bench was erratic with doubles, some seasons having high thirties, other in the high teens.

He also averaged more triples than bench.

[candy curveball cummings]

Count me in as a Simmons supporter, but as someone who doesn't really care about him holding the all time record for hits by a catcher. I don't understand the big deal with records and league leaderships and such. Does it actually equal value on the field? Well, sure, the guy who's the all time leader in hits at a position is likely to be valuable, but that requires inspection. If you do, you'll find Simmons is far from the best hitting catcher of all time, though he was a very good hitter, and he is probably good enough to get in despite his defensive shortcomings.

To me, hit totals are nice to look at, but pretty much meaningless. No one would ever put Harold Baines and Babe Ruth in the same sentence (unless that sentence is Babe Ruth is infinitely better than Harold Baines). However, Ruth has just 7 more hits in his career than Baines. It's not very difficult to rack up hits if you are a slightly above-average ball-smacker who is well-conditioned or has the option of playing DH.

A single stat will never tell you what level to which a player belongs. However, when you look at the whole picture, all of the stats, the historical evidence, even some anecdotal evidence, you can get an idea of exactly what esteem a player should be held at.

[DoubleX]

You would think that would be a big deal, but it seems as if people just blow that off.

How many hits, by the way, did Simmons get as a catcher and how many did he get at other spots. Does anyone know?

Does Simmons have the most at catcher? I don't know what his breakdown is by position, but he had 2472 hits in his career and appeared in 685 games away from catcher. So using Ted's 162 game average of 163 hits, that would equate to roughly 547 hits at other positions. So that would give Ted 1782 hits at catcher (NOTE: I realize the many flaws in this method, I'm just seeing what happens for the sake of conversation; if anyone has the actual breakdown, please feel free to chime in).

On the other hand...Carlton Fisk had 2356 hits for his career and he appeared in just 273 games away from catcher. His 162 average was 153. So that would give Fisk 2098 hits at catcher.

On yet another hand...Bill Dickey had 1969 hits for his career, and he only appeared in 81 games in which he didn't play catcher (I assume he was pitch-hitting because defensively, he only ever played catcher). Dickey's 162 game average was 178 hits. So that would give Dickey approximately 1880 as a catcher.

On still another hand, there is Ivan Rodriguez who has 2334 hits and he's appeared in very few games away from catcher, probably just under 100.

So by using this very flawed method, it's possible that Simmons is as low as 4th in all time hits as a catcher. Even assuming that all 2472 of his hits were at catcher and none came in the other 685 games he appeared in (which is highly unlikely), Ivan Rodriguez will probably be passing Simmons sometime next year.

[JimAbbott]

Simmons did one thing in his career that pissed me off and I'll never forget it. As a member of Atlanta in '86, he talked Dale Murphy into ending his long consecutive games streak and Murph listened to him. This was after Murph's broken hand had healed. Murph broke his hand but kept his streak alive vs the Mets with a big bandage on. Murph clobbered an HR off Gooden in that game

[Freakshow]

Through the 2005 season, these are their hit totals as catchers:

2145 Fisk
2116 I.Rodriguez
1908 Simmons
1907 Carter
1804 Piazza

Thanks, Retrosheet.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Through the 2005 season, these are their hit totals as catchers:

2145 Fisk
2116 I.Rodriguez
1908 Simmons
1907 Carter
1804 Piazza

Thanks, Retrosheet.

FWIW, Gary Carter probably holds the NL record for hits as a catcher, which Piazza will certainly break.

[DoubleX]

Through the 2005 season, these are their hit totals as catchers:

2145 Fisk
2116 I.Rodriguez
1908 Simmons
1907 Carter
1804 Piazza

Thanks, Retrosheet.

Interesting...Where is Dickey on that list? Other than pitch-hitting, he never appeared anywhere but catcher.

[Freakshow]

Interesting...Where is Dickey on that list? Other than pitch-hitting, he never appeared anywhere but catcher.
Dickey had 18 pinch hits out of 1969 total in his career. Therefore, I assume he would be credited with 1951 at catcher.

[PhillyA_man]

It's simply a question of him having the offensive merits to counter-act his defensive ones. Simmons was never known for be a great defensive backstop, or a great "pitcher's-catcher". Yes he has offensive merits, but do they overshadow his defensive shortcomings? I don't think they do...especially being a catcher. I feel to be in the hall as a catcher you need to be outstanding defensively to counter the usual poor to mediocre offensive performances.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Interesting...Where is Dickey on that list? Other than pitch-hitting, he never appeared anywhere but catcher.

Dickey had 1,969 career hits, and played catcher only. I wonder how many of those hits were pinch hits, which would not count as hits as a catcher.

[Chisox]

Dickey had 1,969 career hits, and played catcher only. I wonder how many of those hits were pinch hits, which would not count as hits as a catcher.

Apparently you missed, and I have no idea how considering it was two posts away:

Dickey had 18 pinch hits out of 1969 total in his career. Therefore, I assume he would be credited with 1951 at catcher.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think there is little question that Ted Simmons is the best catcher NOT in the HOF. Whether or not he should be in is a different question. But I can't think of another catcher outside the HOF who is better than Simmons was.

Well, let's look. Was Simmons better than:

Thurman Munson
Lance Parrish
Bob Boone
Elston Howard
Bill Freehan
Sherm Lollar (a guy that NEVER gets mentioned)
Darrell Porter
Wally Schang
Joe Torre
Tim McCarver

You tell me. Simmons clearly seems the best of this group as a catcher. I will probably concede that Torre has a better case, but his best year was at third base and he played a good chunk of his career outside the catcher's slot.

[538280]

I was going to make a lengthy post on why I think Joe Torre is clearly a better HOF candidate than Ted Simmons, until I saw your last line. But, yeah, Torre was a better hitter in context than Simmons and lasted longer. Simmons' only real advantage is that he just stayed at catcher for most of his career, but considering Torre did some great things at other positions (including winning an MVP at thrid base in 1971)-I don't see that being a valid argument.

[candy curveball cummings]

I think there is little question that Ted Simmons is the best catcher NOT in the HOF. Whether or not he should be in is a different question. But I can't think of another catcher outside the HOF who is better than Simmons was.

Well, let's look. Was Simmons better than:

Thurman Munson
Lance Parrish
Bob Boone
Elston Howard
Bill Freehan
Sherm Lollar (a guy that NEVER gets mentioned)
Darrell Porter
Wally Schang
Joe Torre
Tim McCarver

You tell me. Simmons clearly seems the best of this group as a catcher. I will probably concede that Torre has a better case, but his best year was at third base and he played a good chunk of his career outside the catcher's slot.


While I support Simmons for the Hall of Fame, I don't know if he's "clearly" better than Thurman Munson. Munson was better defensively and pretty close offensively. He was a better clutch hitter than Simmons. Had he not died in his prime, Munson would probably be in the Hall of Fame.

Too me, there's no question that Joe Torre is the best catcher not in the hall, followed by Simmons and Munson.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would say that Simmons should be the next catcher elected among eligibles (unless they fool around until after IRod and Piazza have been retired at least five years).

Simmons was one and done with the writers.

It was after this that there was a reassessment of Simmons' defense by some. Simmons was thought of as a defensive liability while active, but post-career reassessments have evaluated his defense as a slight plus.

[houfan]

Ted was a great player for his day, and surely deserved a better shot at the Hall than he got. I loved watching him play, and yes, he could flat out hit!

[mtortolero]

With so few catchers in the HOF, where is Simmons regarding those who are in. Probably behind from Bench, Berra, Cochrane, Hartnett, Campanella and Dickey but I don´t see too much difference between Simba and Fisk or Carter and that means the best seven or eight catchers in baseball history, with Piazza and Rodriguez still active.

[hubkittel]

simmons was my favorite player when i was a growing up (i still have an autographed ted simmons ball on my desk at home) and i'd love to see him make the HoF. i'd make the trip to cooperstown for that. but i've accepted the fact that he's not in and not likely to ever get in. the veterans commitee is so backed up that it's just unlikely that they'll ever get to him.

based on his offensive numbers, he belongs. but the problem is that when you compare him to catchers with similiar numbers (fisk, carter, irod), people will say he doesn't stack up defensively (regardless of whether his defensive reputation is accurate or not). other players to whom he's similiar offensively, such as trammel and torre, have been rejected by the HoF voters.

i'd love to see him get in but i just don't think it will ever happen.

[KCGHOST]

I have always felt that Simmons was a subpar defensive player and am not inclined to accept the revisionist history that says he wasn't. He was an excellent hitter for a catcher and certainly had longevity. He wouldn't be the worst player in the HoF, but I don't see how adding him makes the HoF better.

He deserved more respect than one-and-done, but I wouldn't argue for his induction.

BTW, the best catcher not in the HoF is Joe Torre.

[538280]

I have always felt that Simmons was a subpar defensive player and am not inclined to accept the revisionist history that says he wasn't. He was an excellent hitter for a catcher and certainly had longevity. He wouldn't be the worst player in the HoF, but I don't see how adding him makes the HoF better.

How is it revisionist history? Is going against anything that was throught back then due to new evidence revisionist? When it was proven that the sun was the center of the universe when people for thousands of years had believed that the earth was-is that revisionist to you? Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with it because it's finding truth rather than accepting things as fact because they've been said a million times. The records of Simmons' throwing out basestealers have been studied, play by play, every one, and he really was just about league average for throwing out runners. That isn't all of catching, of course, but the other parts weren't what Simmons usually got critcized for, it was his ability to throw out runners and really he didn't do such a bad job.

And anyway, even if Simmons was a below average catcher, his hitting numbers would be easily above average for a HOF catcher. His hitting is maybe just a small level below Bench and Berra and right with Carter and Fisk. If he was a very good defensive catcher like those guys were he'd be in the running for top 5 all time. As it is, he's in the running for top 10. I think that's ample penalty for his not all time great defense and I still think he deserves the HOF.

And BTW I agree Torre is better but Simmons still deserves it IMO.

]

[iPod]

I have always felt that Simmons was a subpar defensive player and am not inclined to accept the revisionist history that says he wasn't. He was an excellent hitter for a catcher and certainly had longevity. He wouldn't be the worst player in the HoF, but I don't see how adding him makes the HoF better.

He deserved more respect than one-and-done, but I wouldn't argue for his induction.

BTW, the best catcher not in the HoF is Joe Torre.

Revisionist history would be to say Ted Simmons was always thought of as a good defensive catcher. Everyone agrees he wasn't thought of at his time as a good defensive catcher, the idea is that the perception was misleading.

[DiMag4Life]

It's amazing that fellow catcher Gary Carter is in the hall of fame and not him. His stats are as good as almost any catcher.

[jalbright]

It's amazing that fellow catcher Gary Carter is in the hall of fame and not him. His stats are as good as almost any catcher.

I'd rather have Carter because of the defense, but Simmons deserves the honor, too IMO. I'm combining several threads on Simmons here.

Jim Albright

[brett]

I would say that Simmons should be the next catcher elected among eligibles (unless they fool around until after IRod and Piazza have been retired at least five years).


Above Torre? Torre was probably a little better fielder all around, and a 5% better hitter.

[brett]

It's amazing that fellow catcher Gary Carter is in the hall of fame and not him. His stats are as good as almost any catcher.

Carter rates as one of the top 20 if not top 10 defensive catchers in history. Simmons as a little below average. Carter was also a better hitter (129 OPS+ to 118). Carter was a TOP MVP candidate in the NL from '80-'86.

[leecemark]

--If Gary Carter had put up a 129 OPS+ I'd probably have him as the best catcher ever. He actually had a 115 to Simmons 118.

[leecemark]

With so few catchers in the HOF, where is Simmons regarding those who are in. Probably behind from Bench, Berra, Cochrane, Hartnett, Campanella and Dickey but I don´t see too much difference between Simba and Fisk or Carter and that means the best seven or eight catchers in baseball history, with Piazza and Rodriguez still active.


--Simmons is clearly better than quite a few Hall of Fame catchers. I see him as better than Schalk, Ferrell, Lombardi, Bresnahan and Mackey (and comparable to Santop). There are no eligible catchers outside Cooperstown who are clearly better. Torre was a better hitter, but spent more than half his career at other positions and wasn't as good defensively (Simmons was merely average, but Torre was below average). Freehan was much better defensively and peaked higher, but Simmons piled up significantly more career value. I suppose some might prefer Munson or Howard or Schang or whoever, but I see those guys as clearly a notch below. They are the grey area, Simmons is above the line.

[DoubleX]

Funny that this thread has been revived. I was just looking at some statistics for Simmons compared to other catchers in an attempt to put together an argument to get him over the hump in the Mock HoF project.

Among catchers that caught at least 1000 games (which eliminates guys like Joe Torre and Gene Tenace), here's how Simmons' career numbers stack up in some offensive categories (Hall of Famers are in italics):

OPS+
1) Mike Piazza - 144
2) Mickey Cochrane - 128
3) Bill Dickey - 127
t4) Johnny Bench - 126
t4) Gabby Hartnett - 126
t6) Yogi Berra - 125
t6) Ernie Lombardi - 125
t6) Jorge Posada - 125
9) Roy Campanella - 124
10) Ted Simmons - 118
t11) Jack Clements - 117
t11) Carlton Fisk - 117
t11) Wally Schang - 117
t14) Thurman Munson - 116
t14) Walker Cooper - 116
t14) Smokey Burgess - 116
17) Gary Carter - 115
18) Tom Haller - 114
19) Darrell Porter - 113
t20) Ivan Rodriguez - 112
t20) Bill Freehan - 112
t20) Javy Lopez - 112

Hits
1) Ted Simmons - 2472
2) Ivan Rodriguez - 2459
3)Carlton Fisk - 2356
4)Yogi Berra - 2150
5) Mike Piazza - 2093
6) Gary Carter - 2092
7) Johnny Bench - 2048
8) Bill Dickey - 1969
9) Gabby Hartnett - 1912
10) Bob Boone - 1838
11) Benito Santiago - 1830
12) Jason Kendall - 1821
13) Ernie Lombardi - 1792
14) Lance Parrish - 1782
15) Deacon McGuire - 1748
16) Rick Ferrell - 1692
17) Tony Pena - 1687
18) Mickey Cochrane - 1652
19) Bill Freehan - 1591
20) Duke Farrell - 1564

Homeruns
1) Mike Piazza - 422
2) Johnny Bench - 389
3) Carlton Fisk - 376
4) Yogi Berra - 358
t5) Gary Carter - 324
t5) Lance Parrish - 324
7) Ivan Rodriguez - 286
8) Javy Lopez - 260
9) Ted Simmons - 248
10) Roy Campanella - 242
11) Gabby Hartnett - 236
12) Benito Santiago - 217
13) Jorge Posada - 212
t14 - Bill Dickey - 202
t14) Todd Hundley - 202
16) Bill Freehan - 200
17) Ernie Lombardi - 190
18) Darrell Porter - 188
19) Del Crandall - 179
20) Walker Cooper - 173

RBI
1) Yogi Berra - 1430
2) Ted Simmons - 1389
3) Johnny Bench - 1376
4) Carlton Fisk - 1330
5) Mike Piazza - 1314
6) Gary Carter - 1225
7) Bill Dickey - 1209
8) Gabby Hartnett - 1179
9) Ivan Rodriguez - 1169
10) Lance Parrish - 1070
11) Ernie Lombardi - 990
12) Benito Santiago - 920
13) Duke Farrell - 912
14) Javy Lopez - 864
15) Roy Campanella - 856
16) Deacon McGuire - 840
17) Jorge Posada - 838
18) Mickey Cochrane - 832
t19) Darrell Porter - 826
t19) Bob Boone - 826

Doubles
1) Ivan Rodriguez - 495
2) Ted Simmons - 483
3) Carlton Fisk - 421
4) Gabby Hartnett - 396
5) Johnny Bench - 381
6) Gary Carter - 371
7) Bill Dickey - 343
8) Mike Piazza - 336
9) Mickey Cochrane - 333
10) Rick Ferrell - 324
11) Benito Santiago - 323
t12) Yogi Berra - 321
t12) Jason Kendall - 321
14) Lance Parrish - 305
15) Bob Boone - 303
16) Deacon McGuire - 300
17) Tony Pena - 298
18) Jorge Posada - 294
19) Ernie Lombardi - 277
20) Terry Steinbach - 273

Batting Average
1) Mickey Cochrane - .320
2) Bill Dickey - .313
3) Mike Piazza - .309
4) Spud Davis - .308
5) Ernie Lombardi - .306
6) Ivan Rodriguez - .303
7) Jason Kendall - .298
8) Gabby Hartnett - .297
9) Manny Sanguillen - .296
10) Smokey Burgess - .295
11) Thurman Munson - .292
12) Hank Severeid - .289
13) Javy Lopez - .287
14) Jack Clements - .286
t15) Ted Simmons - .285
t15) Yogi Berra - .285
t15) Wally Schang - .285
t15) Walker Cooper - .285
19) Jimmie Wilson - .284
20) Don Slaught - .283

Plate Appearances
1) Carlton Fisk - 9853
2) Ted Simmons - 9685
3) Gary Carter - 9019
4) Ivan Rodriguez - 8703
5) Johnny Bench - 8669
6) Yogi Berra - 8364
7) Bob Boone - 8148
8) Lance Parrish - 7792
9) Mike Piazza - 7609
10) Benito Santiago - 7515
11) Gabby Hartnett - 7297
12) Tony Pena - 7073
13) Rick Ferrell - 7072
14) Bill Dickey - 7060
15) Jason Kendall - 6971
16) Deacon McGuire - 6932
17) Bill Freehan - 6899
18) Jim Sundberg - 6898
19) Al Lopez - 6607
20) Brad Ausmus - 6595

Games Caught
1) Carlton Fisk - 2226
2) Bob Boone - 2225
3) Gary Carter - 2056
4) Ivan Rodriguez- 2027
5) Tony Pena - 1950
6) Jim Sundberg - 1927
7) Al Lopez - 1918
8) Benito Santiago - 1917
9) Lance Parrish - 1818
10) Rick Ferrell - 1806
11) Gabby Hartnett - 1793
12) Brad Ausmus - 1786
13) Ted Simmons - 1771
14) Johnny Bench - 1742
15) Ray Schalk - 1727
16) Bill Dickey - 1708
17) Yogi Berra - 1699
18) Rick Dempsey - 1633
t19) Mike Piazza - 1629
t19) Jim Hegan - 1629

[mwb]

There's a name I haven't heard for awhile. I remember Simmons are a very good hitter & an average catcher. I never really considered him HOF material.

Is there a higher standard for a catcher to be in the HOF? Does it take more than solid offensive numbers to get into the HOF? It seems like catchers are held to a higher standard than other positions. It's not just for players with big offensive numbers unless they are extraordinarily great numbers.

[brett]

--If Gary Carter had put up a 129 OPS+ I'd probably have him as the best catcher ever. He actually had a 115 to Simmons 118.


Sorry. That's Torre at 129.

[DoubleX]

Above Torre? Torre was probably a little better fielder all around, and a 5% better hitter.

I think Torre was the better player, but I think Simmons had the better career at catcher. Simmons caught almost 900 more games at catcher than Torre. Catcher really was Simmons' primary position as he appeared in over 87% of his games at catcher. In contrast, Torre spent just about 41% of his games at catcher. That's a big difference when we're talking just about career at catcher. I have Torre higher on my complete list, but when it's just catcher, I have Simmons a spot ahead (two depending on how I'm feeling about Bill Freehan).

[2Chance]

Nothing wrong with diggin' on the offense, because this is Simba's strength.

But what about the other side? How would you rate some of the catchers above as far as overall defense, calling a game, arm strength, leadership, and other intangibles?

Anybody here brave enough to take a whack at it?

[538280]

Torre's defensive reptuatoin as a catcher is considered to be below average, and from what I have read he was supposed to have limited mobility as a catcher. But I just realize the other day that his rates of opposition SBs are acdtually very good. He is 15% above average in terms of SBs allowed per inning as a catcher, and from 1961-1964 he was tremendous, with rates compared to average of 138, 126, 134, and 142. What do you guys think of that? Was Torre perhaps not as bad a defensive catcher as he's often made out to be?

Either way, Torre didn't actually catch enough (41% of his games as XX said) for it to change the way I look at him THAT much, but it is still interesting to me.

[leecemark]

--Torre was mostly done catching by the time I saw him play, but his reputation was that he had a strong arm, but didn't actually field the position very well. Simmons was a pretty good athlete for a catcher, but didn't have a very strong arm. So I guess which was better defensively depends on how much you weight things. Simmons did stick at the position while Torre did not, so I'd be inclined to give him the edge.
--Comparing Simmons to HoF catchers though, he isn't going to come out very good defensively. He was almost certainly better than Lombardi, but probably no other MLB HoF catchers. He might have been better defensively than Negro Leaguers Gibson and Santop (both of whom fit the strong arm, limited mobility profile), but maybe not.

[SilentKiller]

Anyone think Ted Simmons didn't get a fair shake by the BBWAA and should be in the Hall?

[curveball]

He looks like he was very competitive when you look at offensive output for the catcher position. Unless he was a very bad defensive catcher, those offensive seem to make him deserving.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I think there is little question that Ted Simmons is the best catcher NOT in the HOF. Whether or not he should be in is a different question. But I can't think of another catcher outside the HOF who is better than Simmons was.

Well, let's look. Was Simmons better than:

Thurman Munson
Lance Parrish
Bob Boone
Elston Howard
Bill Freehan
Sherm Lollar (a guy that NEVER gets mentioned)
Darrell Porter
Wally Schang
Joe Torre
Tim McCarver

You tell me. Simmons clearly seems the best of this group as a catcher. I will probably concede that Torre has a better case, but his best year was at third base and he played a good chunk of his career outside the catcher's slot.

I posted this on 09/16/2006. I don't really see any reason to alter my assessment.

Wally Schang gets a lot of love on this site. I don't agree that Schang is a HOFer, and I don't think Schang was better than Schalk. Ergo, I can't see how anyone can support Schang for the HOF but not Simmons, who was far more of a full-timer at catcher.

[Los Bravos]

He's pretty much my top guy who isn't in, other than people like Bert and Dawson who are already on the right track. Simmons being bounced after one is a truly colossal injustice.

[Freakshow]

This was the top 20 in the final poll in The Ultimate Quest for Candidates. Simmons is rated the 9th most deserving player from MLB for the Hall.

1. Ron Santo
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Tim Raines
4. Dick Allen
5. Bill Dahlen
6. Minnie Minoso
7. Alan Trammell
8. Paul Hines
9. Ted Simmons
10 Deacon White

11 Sherry Magee
12 Bobby Grich
13 Mark McGwire
14 Joe Gordon
15 Ross Barnes
16 Joe Torre
17 Dale Murphy
18 Stan Hack
19 Andre Dawson
20 Harry Stovey

[Paul Wendt]

They'all should put Simmons on the veterans committee ballot in the next cycle, so-called 2011.

That's no sure thing, to say the least.

For one, neither Bobby Grich nor Steve Garvey made it to committee this year. Grich is a sabrmetric darling; he got nowhere. Garvey survived 15 years on the ballot; he made it to a preliminary ballot, size 21, which a subset of the hall of famers trimmed to ten.
(Did anyone see any report of the meeting at Cooperstown during induction weekend?)

For another, there will be a stronger class of newly eligible players: Tommy John, Dave Concepcion, Darrell Evans, and Graig Nettles will all be there with Simmons. John and Concepcion survived 15 years on the writers' ballot, so I expect that they will make some progress.

--
Beside good old Gil Hodges the process has generated a lot of votes for Santo, Kaat, and Oliva. Those four tallied 138 votes this time or 2.2 per voter. If the ballot gets stronger will it be possible for anyone to gain ground?
At the same time I wonder whether there is much inclination among the Hall of Fame members to vote for anyone from the younger generation.

I am confident of one thing only. They will revise the system before we have enough data to be confident about anything.

[Captain Cold Nose]

They'all should put Simmons on the veterans committee ballot in the next cycle, so-called 2011. It's no sure thing, to say the least. For one thing they didn't take Bobby Grich this year. For another, Tommy John, Dave Concepcion, Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, and Jim Rice should all be eligible, too. The first four will be eligible and I expect John and Concepcion to make some progress; they survived 15 years on the writers ballot.

Scratch Rice.

[Paul Wendt]

:banghead:

[Pghfan987]

If I would have voted, I would have chosen option 2. If Simmons was a first baseman instead of a catcher, there's no way we would advocate his induction. But because he was an average defensive catcher, he should get in? I would value his defensive position a lot more if he actually played defense at a high level, like Ivan Rodriguez or Ozzie Smith.

[Mike90]

If I would have voted, I would have chosen option 2. If Simmons was a first baseman instead of a catcher, there's no way we would advocate his induction. But because he was an average defensive catcher, he should get in? I would value his defensive position a lot more if he actually played defense at a high level, like Ivan Rodriguez or Ozzie Smith.

An average defensive catcher is much more valuable than an average defensive first baseman.

[Freakshow]

In the Collaboration Game, Simmons is ranked 15th among players eligible for the HOF. Here are candidates named among the top 200 players in history (B=member BBFHOF; H=member Hall of Merit)

91 Tim Raines 7 B H
95 Bert Blyleven 1 B H
104 Ron Santo 5 B H
115 Mark McGwire 3 B H
117 Alan Trammell 6 B H
127 Paul Hines 8 B H
132 Deacon White 2 B H
137 Dick Allen 3 B H
140 Bobby Grich 4 B H
148 Bill Dahlen 6 B H
154 Ross Barnes 4 B H
160 Lou Whitaker 4 B H
163 Minnie Minoso 7 B H
168 Joe Start 3 B H
170 Ted Simmons 2 B H
189 Joe Torre 2 -b- H
194 Sherry Magee 7 B H
197 Darrell Evans 5 B H

[Pghfan987]

An average defensive catcher is much more valuable than an average defensive first baseman.


More valuable, yes, but I don't like making massive positional adjustments for players who did not play that position particularly well. It is easy to replace an average defensive catcher, so unless the guy can crush the baseball like Mike Piazza, I tend to not give players like Simmons that much of a position bonus. A small one, but not large enough to be HOF worthy, in my opinion.

[leecemark]

--It isn't hard to find an average defensive catcher. It IS hard to find an average defensive catcher who can hit. Most catchers are well below average hitters. Simmons was well above, giving his teams a large offensive advantage over most other teams. There are only a dozen or so career catchers who could hit better than Simmons - less than that who did it as long.

[Pghfan987]

--It isn't hard to find an average defensive catcher. It IS hard to find an average defensive catcher who can hit. Most catchers are well below average hitters. Simmons was well above, giving his teams a large offensive advantage over most other teams. There are only a dozen or so career catchers who could hit better than Simmons - less than that who did it as long.

I think I agree with what you said, but if you rank Simmons as just the tenth best hitting catcher of all-time, and he was merely average defensively, then there is no spot in the Hall of Fame for him for me. I don't think there needs to be equal representation for each position in the Hall.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

--It isn't hard to find an average defensive catcher. It IS hard to find an average defensive catcher who can hit. Most catchers are well below average hitters. Simmons was well above, giving his teams a large offensive advantage over most other teams. There are only a dozen or so career catchers who could hit better than Simmons - less than that who did it as long.

You hit the nail right on the head. Teams in which Ted Simmons caught had enormous advantages offensively since he basically hit like a borderline HOF third baseman. The vast majority of catchers do not approach the standard he set offensively - as you pointed out maybe a dozen. And of those dozen, maybe 5 or 6 had better careers long enough to be deemed better offensively than Simmons on aggregate (Bench, Piazza, Berra). Simmons is better offensively than I. Rodriguez & Carter and right on par with Fisk. Since these players are definite HOF'ers IMO Simmons belongs.

Defensively its worth noting that Simmons threw out 33.8% of basestealers which is more than just respectable. His fielding percentage was 0.01 better than league average. From what I can observe, his defensive liabilities stem from not being the best at blocking the plate with balls in the dirt; in 1771 games caught, Simmons yielded 182 PB and 509 WP.

For comparison purposes Gary Carter caught 2056 games & yielded 84 PB / 484 WP.

Bench: 1742 G / 94 PB / 446 WP
Rodriguez: 2173 G / 115 PB / 732 WP
Fisk: 2226 G / 129 PB / 428 WP

What these numbers show is that Simmons PB are a little high, but not catastrophically so; his WP yielded are not that much out of the ordinary compared to HOF catchers standards however. Since we established Simmons SB % was very respectable, it appears Simmons has gotten an unfair reputation as a poor defensive catcher. In all reality, he was probably close to average. But with the offensive numbers he's posted combined with # of games caught and top 5 all-time offensively, I would vote Simmons in.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Does Ted Simmons Belong in the HOF?

[Los Bravos]

Even if you think he's short of deserving, I'm hard pressed to imagine anyone around here seriously defending him being one and done.

[Cougar]

Easy "Yes".

[Yankwood]

I know he belongs the the Strat-0-Matic Hall Of Fame.

[Paul Wendt]

I think I agree with what you said, but if you rank Simmons as just the tenth best hitting catcher of all-time, and he was merely average defensively, then there is no spot in the Hall of Fame for him for me. I don't think there needs to be equal representation for each position in the Hall.
Which nine "catchers" surpassed Ted Simmons as batters?
In ten years playing nearly full seasons with St Louis, 6000 PA at 130 OPS+.

Leftfielder Jim Rice, a pure batting candidate, achieved merely twelve years at 133, and ten years at about 135.
Leftfielder Billy Williams and firstbaseman Orlando Cepeda hit only the high 130s over ten seasons.
In his glorious first seven seasons Cepeda hit only 141.
Truly, the glory days of Jim Rice were three seasons only, but convention grants him five, 1975-79, when he hit only 142. Perhaps he also hit 140 over seven seasons, 1977-83.

A different type of player Rod Carew hit about 143 over ten seasons, three nearly full seasons fielding 1B and seven fielding 2B with some injury time out.

I suspect that many of you have lived through most of the 1990s and 20-aughts with indexes such as OPS+ readily available, or at least promptly available at the end of every season. The best batters top 140 every season and they top 150 on average. In his own glorious seven-year run Fred McGriff hit 155!

One or two generations earlier, during the times of Simmons and Rice or Williams and Cepeda, a leftfielder or firstbaseman batting in the 130s was building a hall of fame resume. Ted Simmons excelled at batting, not only "for a catcher". For a catcher he was off the charts.



You hit the nail right on the head. Teams in which Ted Simmons caught had enormous advantages offensively since he basically hit like a borderline HOF third baseman.
When have we seen "borderline HOF" thirdbasemen batting 130 for a decade? Throughout major league history?

[Paul Wendt]

:banghead:

[Freakshow]

All players with 1400+ G at catcher, 7000+ PA, 107 OPS+

Cnt Player OPS+ RC PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Mike Piazza 142 1378 7745 1992 2007
2 Bill Dickey 127 1165 7060 1928 1946
3 Johnny Bench 126 1239 8669 1967 1983
4 Gabby Hartnett 126 1161 7297 1922 1941
5 Yogi Berra 125 1265 8364 1946 1965
6 Carlton Fisk 117 1378 9853 1969 1993
7 Ted Simmons 117 1283 9685 1968 1988
8 Gary Carter 115 1184 9019 1974 1992
9 Ivan Rodriguez 110 1315 9264 1991 2008
Note that all three qualifiers are well below Simmons' totals.

[Pghfan987]

All players with 1400+ G at catcher, 7000+ PA, 107 OPS+

Cnt Player OPS+ RC PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Mike Piazza 142 1378 7745 1992 2007
2 Bill Dickey 127 1165 7060 1928 1946
3 Johnny Bench 126 1239 8669 1967 1983
4 Gabby Hartnett 126 1161 7297 1922 1941
5 Yogi Berra 125 1265 8364 1946 1965
6 Carlton Fisk 117 1378 9853 1969 1993
7 Ted Simmons 117 1283 9685 1968 1988
8 Gary Carter 115 1184 9019 1974 1992
9 Ivan Rodriguez 110 1315 9264 1991 2008
Note that all three qualifiers are well below Simmons' totals.

I guess they don't meet the minimum number of PAs, but Mickey Cochrane, Roy Campanella, and Buck Ewing were better offensive catchers than Simmons. Add in Josh Gibson and Simmons might not crack the top ten catchers of all-time ONLY considering their offense.

Ernie Lombardi and Joe Torre are in the mix as well, although with fewer PAs.

[Pghfan987]

When have we seen "borderline HOF" thirdbasemen batting 130 for a decade? Throughout major league history?
Ron Santo: OPS+ for one decade (1963-1972) = 137
http://brooks.mlblogs.com/photos/uncategorized/santo.jpeg

Stan Hack: OPS+ for one decade (1937-1946) = 125
http://images.bleedcubbieblue.com/images/admin/stanhack.jpg

Ron Cey: OPS+ for one decade (1974-1983) = 128
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/cubsfan203/RonCeyTTMAuto.jpg

Other best decades: Bobby Bonilla 134, Bob Elliot 130, Ken Caminiti 129, Sal Bando 127, Matt Williams 125.

[MyDogSparty]

I know he belongs the the Strat-0-Matic Hall Of Fame.

:laugh:laugh Amen.

[Dalkowski110]

Yes, however I voted no. When I clicked on this thread, there was one right below it for Dave Parker, whom I do not believe is a HoF'er (if you wish to dispute me there, please do it in the thread for Dave Parker). Whoops...can my vote be changed to a yes?

[curveball]

Yes, however I voted no. When I clicked on this thread, there was one right below it for Dave Parker, whom I do not believe is a HoF'er (if you wish to dispute me there, please do it in the thread for Dave Parker). Whoops...can my vote be changed to a yes?


Parker needs all the yes votes he can get, and Simmons is doing fine, so maybe we should just keep your votes as is. ;)

[KCGHOST]

Simmons and Torre just drive me crazy. In my mind they are not Hofers but they score out at middle of the pack HoF catchers when measured by win shares or WARP3.

[joshfan]

Always in Benchs shadow , a switch hitting 300 man with solid skills

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

The more I analyze Ted Simmons' numbers, the more I'm convinced he's a HOF'er. There's no doubt Simmons' offensive numbers are there. His defense was really not that bad, and probably over half of his career it was at average or slightly above. I can't really see any reason to plausibly keep him out. Simmons' omission really demonstrates the power of perception as it pertains to the writers vote. For some reason, every generation seems to yield 2-3 players whose contributions get bafflingly overlooked for whatever reason.

Blyleven, of course, was one. Tim Raines is another (although the reasons not so baffling). Ted Simmons under-appreciation is up there with both of them.

[Colorado Express]

You know, my initial thought was "no", but looking closer at his stats and remembering him as one of the top catchers of his era makes me say (and vote) "yes".

[jalbright]

merged two Simmons threads into one. If you want to talk about his case, please do it here.

[Second Base Coach]

This looks like a Vet Comm vote if there ever was one.

The regular voters should have put him in, but maybe the Vets can correct that...

[mtortolero]

Can be Simmons be elected by the HOF Vet Com? If the answer is yes, why he is not appearing in their ballot these last years?

[Freakshow]

Can be Simmons be elected by the HOF Vet Com? If the answer is yes, why he is not appearing in their ballot these last years?You have to be retired for 21 seasons before they put you on the VC ballot. The ballot they'll prepare next year will newly include players retiring in 1988-89, like Simmons.

Post #74 above discusses some of this.

[mtortolero]

You have to be retired for 21 seasons before they put you on the VC ballot. The ballot they'll prepare next year will newly include players retiring in 1988-89, like Simmons.

Post #74 above discusses some of this.

Thanks, looks like Simmons has been forever waiting for his second chance.

[The Commissioner]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that so many members support Simmons' induction in this poll. I remember near the end of his career looking at his numbers, also actually recalling him from his prime, and thinking "Wow, he really does a strong Hall of Fame case". To see him one and done with 17 votes, though was shocking to me.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that so many members support Simmons' induction in this poll. I remember near the end of his career looking at his numbers, also actually recalling him from his prime, and thinking "Wow, he really does a strong Hall of Fame case". To see him one and done with 17 votes, though was shocking to me.

I think Simmons will do better the second time around with more retrospect in mind. He truly was an outstanding catcher, no worse than 10th best offensive catcher all-time and as high as 5th best, depending on one's ranking system. His game calling and throwing was better than adequate, although he was immobile behind the dish & lousy at preventing WP & PB.

I really hope Simmons gets his due. I'm a small Hall type of guy, but Simmons case is clearly over borderline for me; he definitely deserves induction.

[The Commissioner]

I've always been a Big Haller, but it's nice to see even some Small Haller's agreeing on this one. :)

[PVNICK]

Simmons had the misfortune of playing in the NL with Bench and then when Bench wound down Carter and the Expos got good and Teds moment at the top lasted all of about 4 years tops from 76-79. Then off the the Brew Crew where he hit about .215 and became a DH. If he was in the AL Fisk and Munson would have been looking up at him, rather than he at Bench. If he came along probably any time between 1955 and 1965 and we have a perennial All-Star at Catcher and with GG often being awarded on name recognition and star caliber perhaps that on his resume as well. Also I don't know why but somehow the Simba, long hair, cigarette smoking, cool dude image (at least thats what the few magazine articles focused on) may have won him points in the eyes of an impressionable youngster like myself but probably didn't help with the hardcore baseball reputation.

[JR Hart]

I want to hear a rational explanation

For 10 years at CATCHER from 1971-80:

-He CAUGHT 135 games a year

-He averaged (not 162g) but averaged 71 runs, 164 hits, 32 2B, 3 3B, 18 HRs, 92 RBI and went .303/.369/.471 OPS+132 as a freaking CATCHER.

I don't want to hear about the tail end of his career that brought his numbers down. That's a HOF ten year average for a CATCHER. In the SEVENTIES!!

Tell me how he isn't in?

[Los Bravos]

You should have included a "HELL yes!" option.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I think we all know that the biggest reason is because of his defense. I think he should be in but thats the only thing that must be keeping him out.

[J W]

His lack of defense (which isn't even that bad) should not have made him a one-and-done candidate.

First off, OPS+ wasn't looked at by the voters at the time. Second, he didn't make any nice round numbers like 500 doubles, 300 HR or 1500 RBI. Third, he was not a superstar to my knowledge despite his multiple all-star appearances. Other catchers of his day (Bench, Fisk, Carter) were bigger names.

It feels like an inexplicable thing even though I just offered some plausible reasons. I feel the same way about Lou Whitaker and Will Clark.

[Jackaroo Dave]

His lack of defense (which isn't even that bad) should not have made him a one-and-done candidate. . . .

Other catchers of his day (Bench, Fisk, Carter) were bigger names.

Good point about the other catchers. Their defense was several cuts above Simmons. Still, if you're a really bad defensive catcher who can hit .300, you don't catch 1771 games, you play first base. His weakness was his arm, and the running game growing ever more prominent probably highlighted that. Still, I can't imagine his defense was as bad as Ernie Lombardi's.

I know he was unpopular with a couple of managers, one, Vern Rap, no one was going to pay attention to, but the other was Whitey Herzog, who was vocally opinionated and a good interview. I notice that Bill James gives Simmons a poke in the ribs at every passing mention, and I suspect he may be reflecting the attitude of some of his peers. (Edit: James ranks him high, just doesn't like his anti-establishmentarianism.)

I don't know. It's just speculation, but looking at his record, it seems to me that the weak defense and three top ten? fifteen? catchers made it feasible for writers who were down on him to pass him over, rather than provide a good case against him.

[Los Bravos]

Being an enemy of Whitey Herzog is yet another factor in his favor.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Being an enemy of Whitey Herzog is yet another factor in his favor.

I never knew they didn't get along, why did they have problems with each other?

[TomBodet]

James makes a nice point: Simmons as a Dh would have been Edgar Martinez, 3000 hit length career mode. Simba is a Hof to me.

[PVNICK]

Simmons being one and done always perplexed me. He had the old school stats: multiple .300 100 RBI seasons. Was he that overshadowed by Johnny Bench? I don't know because I was old enough to collect his baseball cards and read the sports magazien articles of the time and I liked him. Sometimes the voting can be so peculiar.

[BigRon]

First, Simmons definitely deserved serios HOF consideration. That he didn't is very unfortunate.

I see several issues working against him. As mentioned previously, he was considered to be a mediocre defensive catcher. Like Piazza later, he had a poor reputation as a thrower. When he switched to the AL his production dropped. He did have a good season or two offensively, but he became a pretty average hitter, and a part-time DHer. Then, late in his career he was a part-time player for 3 or 4 years. Simmons went through a pretty long decline stage- most of his AL seasons, plus his last 3 or 4 years back in the NL. HOF voters have historically been unkind to quite a few players who had long declines- it's as if they forgot how good the players were years earlier. And, as good as he was offensively, Simmons never was considered to be the top catcher in the game- Bench, or Carter, or Fisk, or Munson always seemed to have an edge.

[dgarza]

Not that Simmons doesn't deserve the HOF...

But what might have helped him was some post-season "heroics".
He didn't really show up in Oct.


Year Age Tm Lg Series Opp Rslt G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1981 31 MIL AL ALDS NYY L 5 20 18 1 4 1 0 1 4 0 0 2 2 .222 .300 .444 .744 8 0 0 0 0 0
1982 32 MIL AL ALCS CAL W 5 20 18 3 3 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 4 .167 .200 .167 .367 3 0 0 0 1 0
1982 32 MIL AL WS STL L 7 28 23 2 4 0 0 2 3 0 0 5 3 .174 .321 .435 .756 10 1 0 0 0 2
2 Yrs (3 Series) 17 68 59 6 11 1 0 3 8 0 0 8 9 .186 .279 .356 .635 21 1 0 0 1 2
1 ALDS 5 20 18 1 4 1 0 1 4 0 0 2 2 .222 .300 .444 .744 8 0 0 0 0 0
1 ALCS 5 20 18 3 3 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 4 .167 .200 .167 .367 3 0 0 0 1 0
1 WS 7 28 23 2 4 0 0 2 3 0 0 5 3 .174 .321 .435 .756 10 1 0 0 0 2

[Nimrod]

I seem to recall that early in his career,the Cardinals asked Simmons if he would be interested in going to the Instructional League for one winter to learn to play first base.Simmons declined the offer.

[leecemark]

--Simmons is definately one fo the top 10 hitting catchers in MLB history. He was not a great defender and he lacks the intangibles some other catchers bring to the table (catchers are expected to be team leaders and Simmons was never the leader of a championship team or even alot of contending ones). That drops him out of my top 10 and I'd guess many voters see (well saw) it the same way. Still it is very difficult to make an arguement that keeps him out of the top 15 catchers in MLB history and that is a strong HoF case. I suspect he will eventually get in via the VC.
--One and done was a really unfair treatment of his case by the writers, but realistically if he'd gotten a few more votes to get on the ballot he was highly unlikley to get to 75% with such a low starting point. I think he deserved to get better support and to get inducted in a more timely manner, but clearly that was an extreme minority position at the time he hit the ballot. The writers have a long history of not getting it right on catchers. Piazza is a significantly better version of Simmons - he should have been a slam dunk first ballot selection - and his debut was underwhelming.

[Los Bravos]

I'm don't think he was the leader in Milwaukee but I believe he had a positive influence on the '82 team, on and off of the field.

I also don't think being a team leader is contingent on the team being a championship caliber group. If you leave a positive influence wherever you go, that's something to make note of. Tom Glavine and John Smoltz have always talked up Ted and his influence on them in their earliest days in the majors.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Uh...why is it a sham??

Carter was MUCH better defensively than Ted and almost as good offensively. Ted has a case for being in, but Carter was clearly better overall.


Carter was, also, clearly the best catcher in all of baseball from 1979-86. That's a long run to be the best in baseball, and he did it with competition.

[drstrangelove]

Simmons is 10th overall in WAR for catchers.

Having said that:

1) the year he came on the ballot and failed to get 5% (first year), he was 16th in total WAR. So, no matter what your opinion of WAR is, he had lots of other players on the ballot that to the writer's 'looked' as good or better.
2) writers and in deed sabermatricians do not credit catchers enough in my opinion today. It was worse years ago.
3) he had no great peaks, set no memorable records, won no major awards, batted poorly in the playoffs.
4) arguably, being the 10th best as a catcher is not necessarily an argument for inclusion. Many great hitters were intentionally moved FROM catcher, so the remainder is not a completely fair list of the talent. Keeping good hitters at catcher is not something that many teams choose to do, and writers are aware of this. Had Simmons played third base and his stats bumped up by something (what that would be is unknown), he would never in anyone's imagination been close to Brett or Schmidt.
5) the OP's thrust is that it's a no brainer. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Piazza is a no brainer. Simmons is borderline.