Top 5 Current Best All-Around Baseball Players? [Archive]

DoubleX

03-11-2005, 09:52 AM

1. Ichiro Suzuki (how has nobody mentioned him?)
2. Scott Rolen
3. Derek Jeter
4. Miguel Tejada
5. Carlos Beltran

ARod belongs nowhere near any of these lists; the guy isn't even a deserving All Star, much less one of the best in the league.

And yet when we've made 3B lists, you've already touted him as the best ever after just one year the position.

I would also like to add that A-Rod, despite a down year, led the league in power and speed last year and played pretty good defense at a brand new position.

ElHalo

03-11-2005, 10:15 AM

And yet when we've made 3B lists, you've already touted him as the best ever after just one year the position.

Based on his accomplishments before he moved to third base. I rate his career as a whole, and see where it ranks him among third basemen, because that's what he is.

Currently, however, he's not the player he once was. He's not the player Tony Phillips once was. Great defense, sure. And no clutch hitting, whining attitude, and poor contact hitting.

RuthMayBond

03-11-2005, 10:21 AM

Based on his accomplishments before he moved to third base. I rate his career as a whole, and see where it ranks him among third basemen, because that's what he is.

Currently, however, he's not the player he once was. He's not the player Tony Phillips once was. Great defense, sure. And no clutch hitting, whining attitude, and poor contact hitting.if you rate his career as a whole, you wouldn't put him as 3B. And what kind of played was Tony Phillips once?

julusnc

03-11-2005, 10:24 AM

EH all you spout is the greatness of Derek Jeter.

Alex Rodriguez is a better all around player.

It took the New York Spankys to move Rodriguez out of position for Jeter to win a Gold Glove.

BoSox Rule

03-11-2005, 11:53 AM

Jeter can hit for average and steal a base. No defense.

Edgartohof

03-11-2005, 12:18 PM

1. Ichiro Suzuki (how has nobody mentioned him?)

ARod belongs nowhere near any of these lists; the guy isn't even a deserving All Star, much less one of the best in the league.

I personally think that Ichiro is great, and give more support to him than most, but he is only a 4 tool player, and all-around includes power, which he doesn't have.

And yes A-Rod NEEDS to be on that list. He is one of the most amazing players ever! He can (and does) do it all. Average, Power, Glove, Arm, Run

ElHalo

03-11-2005, 06:59 PM

Sorry, I'm just bitter. I hate ARod. I want Soriano back. It's just a Yankee fan thing.

antihipster

03-11-2005, 07:09 PM

1. Rolen
2. Suzuki
3. Beltran
4. Jeter
5. Edmonds

Bill Burgess

03-11-2005, 09:45 PM

DoubleX

03-12-2005, 09:53 AM

Sorry, I'm just bitter. I hate ARod. I want Soriano back. It's just a Yankee fan thing.

As a fellow Yankee fan, I too miss Soriano and do wish the trade never happened. However, Rodriguez upgrades the team any which way you look at it. Defesively, Rodriguez makes the team better. He is a better hitter than Soriano. His OPS is well above Soriano's (who was below 100 last year despite moving into a hitter friendly park). And Rodriguez even stole 10 more bases than Soriano last year. And if you want to talk about clutch hitting, remember how many times Soriano struck out on ugly pitches in the 2003 postseason? It seemed as if every at-bat he would chase a slider low and very away for strike three.

There is some truth to this whole Rodriguez isn't a real Yankee thing - but the same could be said about Clemens after the '99 season. I'm expecting Rodriguez to settle in nicely this year and work hard to get over all the criticism and play closer to his pre-Yankees self and win the admiration of the Yankees faithful.

leecemark

03-13-2005, 09:37 PM

Alex Rodriguez
Vlad Guerro
Carlos Beltran
Miguel Tejeda
Bobby Abreau

Pghfan987

03-13-2005, 10:51 PM

1) Barry Bonds
2) Ichiro
3) A-Rod
4) Carlos Beltran
5) Vlad Guerrero

When I think of best all around player, I think of the players who have the biggest impact on the game. I think that Bonds is similar to Williams now, and I think that in the late 40's Williams was one of the best all-around players in the game, just like Bonds is now. What I mean, is, although Bonds' defense is poor, his O is so incredible, so game-changing, so season-changing, he warrants the top spot. Then Ichiro does everything EXCEPTIONALLY well except for power. Come to think of it, if Ichiro hit 50 homers a year (and had the SLG and RBIs that came along with it), would he not be the best all-around baseball player ever? (An ENORMOUS if, but just a thought. He has a tremendous arm, great range, one of the best contact hitters of all-time, and tremendous speed both from home to first and around the bases.) I'll take a SICK four-tool player over a very good five tool player (Beltran) anyday.

Mark

PS: Like the CAPS? :D

Bill Burgess

03-14-2005, 06:43 AM

BoSox Rule,

"Jeter can hit for average and steal a base. No defense."

But doesn't a GG show improvement? Don't you agree he's moving in the right direction with his D.?

Bill

RuthMayBond

03-14-2005, 07:16 AM

BoSox Rule,

"Jeter can hit for average and steal a base. No defense."

But doesn't a GG show improvement? Don't you agree he's moving in the right direction with his D.?

BillThe GG wasn't deserved, and he moved in the right direction for one year, but he's thirty-one this year

ElHalo

03-14-2005, 07:21 AM

The GG wasn't deserved, and he moved in the right direction for one year, but he's thirty-one this year

Using RF and ZR and defensive Win Shares the GG wasn't deserved. But throw the stats out the window, and oh yes, it was very well deserved.

RuthMayBond

03-14-2005, 07:22 AM

Using RF and ZR and defensive Win Shares the GG wasn't deserved. But throw the stats out the window, and oh yes, it was very well deserved.. . . because he's Mr. Yank, and because you say so :laugh

ElHalo

03-14-2005, 07:23 AM

. . . because he's Mr. Yank, and because you say so :laugh

Remember who it is that decides GG's. It's not like MVP's.

Bill Burgess

03-14-2005, 07:42 AM

He'll improve. He's not done yet. You watch & see. He'll make a believer outa you yet, Jeff? If ye had but the faith of the mustard seed.

Bill

BoSox Rule

03-14-2005, 09:12 AM

Jeter was average for the first time in his career because Alex Rodriguez took alot of the slack off Jeter to the right.

RuthMayBond

03-14-2005, 11:21 AM

Remember who it is that decides GG's. It's not like MVP's.Managers and coaches, who can still have bias

RuthMayBond

03-14-2005, 11:22 AM

He'll improve. He's not done yet. You watch & see. He'll make a believer outa you yet, Jeff? If ye had but the faith of the mustard seed.

BillIf you could convince me that defenders tend to improve after age 30 :laugh

ElHalo

03-14-2005, 12:36 PM

If you could convince me that defenders tend to improve after age 30 :laugh

Which apparently happened last year.

You also have to understand that, unlike yourself, most people see defensive statistics as jumping off points, rough sketches, but understand that defense is much more subjective than offense, and know that the statistics that we have don't tell the entire story. In the same way that you can't get the full measure of a hitter just by their BA, you can't get a full measure of a ballplayer just by his RF.

julusnc

03-14-2005, 02:40 PM

Jeter was average for the first time in his career because Alex Rodriguez took alot of the slack off Jeter to the right.

I agree wholeheartedly!

BoSox Rule

03-14-2005, 03:17 PM

1. Carlos Beltran
2. Bobby Abreu
3. Adrian Beltre
4. Alex Rodriguez
5. Ichiro

That was in no order

Beltre: Adrian Beltre as ALWAYS had the potential to be the top 5-10 player he was this year. In his minor league career, he hit .307 with a .400 OBP (no HBP or SF data). His SLG was .546, his Isolated Power was .239, and his BB/K was 0.99! Almost 1 BB for every K, which is phenominal, ESPECIALLY for a young minor leaguer. Here are his minor league stats translated into a 162 game average.

587 AB, 122 R, 180 H, 37 2B, 5 3B, 31 HR, 127 RBI, 23 SB, 92 BB, 93 SO, and a .307/.400/.546 line.

In 1998, he played 77 games in his first MLB stint. He hit .215 with a .647 OPS. A small sample size. He was only 19 years old. He progressed in 1999 at age 20, hitting .275/.352/.528 with a 100 OPS+ and hit 15 HR.

Adrian broke out in 2000, at age 21. He hit .290 with .360 OBP and a .475 OPS. His OPS+ was 116. This is when things went down hill for Adrian. He was rushed to the hospital and neary DIED following and emergency appendectomy. From 2001-2003 he posted BA's of .265, .257, and .240. OBP's of .310, .303, and .290. SLG's of .411, .426, and .424. OPS' of .720, .729 and .714.

The next year, we saw the Adrian Beltre we should've seen all along. No reason not to believe he won't keep it up.

Bill Burgess

03-14-2005, 03:19 PM

Baseball is full of examples of aging fielders who continued to serve their teams very well indeed. Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Ozzie Smith, Wagner, Sisler, and dozens of other examples I could cite.

This year we Giants brought Omar Vizquel onboard, who was a former GGer, and he's 38! So we obviously disagree with you that a 31 yr. old fielder can not improve his D.

Defense involves so much more than sheer speed, or bigger, faster, stronger. Great D. depends on knowing your hitters, anticipation, leaning the right way, knowing your parks, knowing how your catcher & the opposing catcher call the sequence of pitches, pitchers' stuff, never giving up on a ball, knowing your DP partner, how the guys run the bags, how to put the tag on a slider.

Once these things are made a part of one's psyche, and made a mechanical routine for the fielder, then one is freed to focus on style, grace, and perfecting the presentation.

So, I see no reason why Derek Jeter can not ante up his D. game.

Bill Burgess

BoSox Rule

03-14-2005, 03:20 PM

Baseball is full of examples of aging fielders who continued to serve their teams very well indeed. Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Ozzie Smith, Wagner, Sisler, and dozens of other examples I could cite.

This year we Giants brought Omar Vizquel onboard, who was a former GGer, and he's 38! So we obviously disagree with you that a 31 yr. old fielder can not improve his D.

Defense involves so much more than sheer speed, or bigger, faster, stronger. Great D. depends on knowing your hitters, anticipation, leaning the right way, knowing your parks, catchers, pitchers' stuff, never giving up on a ball, knowing your DP partner, how the guys run the bags, how to put the tag on a slider.

Once these things are made a part of one's pyche, and made a mechanical routine for the fielder, then one is freed to focus on style, grace, and perfecting the presentation.

So, I see no reason why Derek Jeter can not up the ante in his D. game.

Bill Burgess

Bill, Omar has consistently been one of the all-time greats, not just current, when it comes to shortstop and defense.

Bill Burgess

03-14-2005, 03:29 PM

BoSox,

This is true. I agree. Great all time glove. Does anyone really believe he stopped improving at age 31? SS involves knowlege, instincts, reflexes, heart.

Bill Burgess

leecemark

03-14-2005, 06:40 PM

--I think it is unlikely that many, if any, players have been better defenders i their 30s than their 20s. Some (but few) may have their best individual year after 30, but virtually everyone is headed down by their mid-30s if not earlier. If you were great with the leather as a young player you may still be very good, but not quite as good as you used to be.

Bill Burgess

03-14-2005, 06:50 PM

BoSox Rule

03-14-2005, 07:10 PM

The original point was that I included Derek Jeter in my Honorable Mentions, as one of the current best all around players today, and I don't know how you can take it away from him. His leather is not as poor as advertised.

Bill Burgess
No, but his range is among the worst of all-time. You know SABR Matt from MLB Center? His PCA system ranked Jeter the 18th worst defensive SS of all-time.

sschirmer

01-20-2006, 10:12 AM

Wow. I'll say:
1. A-Rod
2. Pujols
3. D. Lee
4. I-Rod
5. A. Jones
I put Pudge in there based a lot on the position he plays.

Uncle Dak

01-20-2006, 10:33 AM

Vlad
Jeter
Tejada
Ichiro
A-Rod

Jeter hustles and gives everything he has everytime. When the chips are down you would want this guy in any clutch situation.

mordeci

01-20-2006, 12:59 PM

I'm surprised the discussion got this far without a single mention of Adam Dunn. He's a true 5-tool player (assuming that striking out counts as 4 tools) and the answer to the seldom asked question: "Who will be the next Dave Kingman".

plask_stirlac

01-20-2006, 01:14 PM

If a player had a misstep or breakout year last year, I'm giving that a lot of consideration.

Pujols
A-Rod
Lee
Abreu
Bay

Ichiro, Tex, Ortiz (overwhelming specialties), Cabrera, Helton, Utley, Wright.

Bill Burgess

01-20-2006, 04:00 PM

Reposting mine.

My 5 Best Current All-Around Players:

1. Bonds
2. A-Rod
3. I-Rod
4. Suzuki
5. Griffey, Jr.

Honorable Mentions:
Vlad Guerrero, Carlos Beltran, Tori Hunter, Jim Edmonds, Todd Helton, Larry Walker, Alfonso Soriano, Albert Pujols, Eric Chavez, Derek Jeter, Andruw Jones.

rsuriyop

01-20-2006, 04:39 PM

1. Vladimir Guerrero
2. A-Rod
3. Miguel Tejada
4. Bobby Abreu
5. Jason Bay

dl4060

01-23-2006, 02:36 PM

dl4060

01-23-2006, 02:41 PM

Jeter being voted the gold glove shortstop detracts greatly from the credibility of the voters.

csh19792001

01-23-2006, 02:48 PM

1. Carlos Beltran
2. Bobby Abreu
3. Adrian Beltre
4. Alex Rodriguez
5. Ichiro

???

Where is Pujols, who is better than any of these guys, and arguably the greatest young player in baseball history?

Bill Burgess

01-23-2006, 02:50 PM

Managers and coaches, who can still have bias

If bias is your main concerned objection, Jeff, I can't see how you're going to award GGs. Stats are completely inadequate. Managers/coaches are the closest to best, most informed personnel available, not counting one's peers.

Maybe we should let SS choose SSs, and Catchers choose catchers. What would you say to that?

Bill

csh19792001

01-23-2006, 02:56 PM

--I think it is unlikely that many, if any, players have been better defenders i their 30s than their 20s. Some (but few) may have their best individual year after 30, but virtually everyone is headed down by their mid-30s if not earlier.

And on the same note...

If anyone doubts that steroids have a direct, tangible, significant impact on the career paths (and records) of stars, read the piece in the latest SABR Baseball Researach Journal entitled "Cumulative Home Run Frequency and the Recent Home Run Explosion"

It looks at every HR/AB ratio of all of the member of the 500 HR club, and graphs them chonologically according to age.

The rates of only 4 players actually increase throughout their 30's. Surprise, surprise, it's Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro.

Edgartohof

01-23-2006, 02:58 PM

???

Where is Pujols, who is better than any of these guys

Except A-Rod. He is a better hitter than him (not by too much though), but A-Rod plays 3B, and should be playing SS (that is not his fault though, so I personally don't fault him too much), whereas Pujols is only at 1B. And not only does A-rod play a much heavier defensive position, he plays it very well (he did better as SS, but he does just fine at 3B). And A-Rod is better on the bases (Pujols has only 1 good season on the bases - it was good 16-1, but who knows if that will hold up).

Bill Burgess

01-23-2006, 02:58 PM

1. Ichiro Suzuki (how has nobody mentioned him?)
2. Scott Rolen
3. Derek Jeter
4. Miguel Tejada
5. Carlos Beltran

ARod belongs nowhere near any of these lists; the guy isn't even a deserving All Star, much less one of the best in the league.

Wow. What an unjustified opinion. But you made that opinion before last season began. But with last year's stats, I'm sure your feelings have evolved. I just don't see how anyone could leave off Bonds/Alex Rodriguez, and be taken seriously. Must guard your credibility, Jim. And aren't you the one who refuses to join me in eye-witness reports being taken seriously? And aren't you basing all your thoughts on your eyes?

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
2005 29 NYY AL 162 605 124 194 29 1 48 130 21 6 91 139 .321 .421 .610 369 0 3 8 16 8

csh19792001

01-23-2006, 04:05 PM

Except A-Rod. He is a better hitter than him (not by too much though), but A-Rod plays 3B, and should be playing SS (that is not his fault though, so I personally don't fault him too much), whereas Pujols is only at 1B. And not only does A-rod play a much heavier defensive position, he plays it very well (he did better as SS, but he does just fine at 3B). And A-Rod is better on the bases (Pujols has only 1 good season on the bases - it was good 16-1, but who knows if that will hold up).

I'm a huge A-Rod supporter (I actually had him at the top of my position player poll for several ballots while others left him off, actually), but I really can't see how A-Rod is close to Pujols in terms of hitting. .332/.416/.621 for Albert and .307/.385/.577 for A-Rod. It isn't even close, and while A-Rod strikes out almost twice as much as he walks, Albert's K/HR ratio is excellent for the modern era. That's a huge indicator of skill/greatness to me.

In the entire history of baseball probably only Dimaggio and Williams started their careers with 5 consecutive seasons this great and this consistent.

In fact, if not for Balco Barry, Pujols would have at least 3 (possibly 4) MVP's in his first 5 seasons. The same can't be said for A-Rod in his first 5 years or his last 5, even though he's matured and right at his peak at the moment. In fact, barring an artifical PED type career path, we've probably seen the best he has to offer at this point.

Overall value?

Look at it this way- Rodriguez is 30, and has been in the league since 1995, and he's ammassed 318 Win Shares. Pujols has played in less than half the games Rodriguez has, yet despite the steep positional adjustment, has well over 50% of the value.

plask_stirlac

01-23-2006, 08:07 PM

Maybe A-Rod wasn't truly a de-facto MVP consistently in his first 5 years and we've seen his best, he's still been a gargant. He was 1 first-place vote short of Juan Gonzalez in 1996, in 1998 he went .300-40-40, in 2000 he upped his walk rate and became more effective in the box.

Plus even if we give Pujols his good 1B play instead of his lead-glove OF play, you can get more offense with A-Rod at SS or 3B and, say, old Tino, Crime Dog, or Palmeiro at 1B (if possible) than Pujols+Cezar Izturis.

Who would I take? Probably Pujols, he's like a hitting monk or something. He's had between 590 and 592 AB in each season! That just adds onto the reliability and 169 OPS+ brilliance. The guy seemed kind of cooled off in 2004 compared to 2003 and he ended up with 46 HR and an arsenal of other stats.
I don't know what I'd coach him on in hitting or even personally... just stay healthy like he has been smoothly. It's still close with Rodriguez.

plask_stirlac

01-23-2006, 08:10 PM

???

Where is Pujols, who is better than any of these guys, and arguably the greatest young player in baseball history?

It was a while ago. He gave a big digital pat on Beltre's back. The problem is it pushed him over or something (back to 2003 OPS and OPS+).

Sultan_1895-1948

01-23-2006, 09:01 PM

I just don't see how anyone could leave off Bonds/Alex Rodriguez, and be taken seriously.

Arod I'll buy, but Bill. Bonds? This thread title is about "current" players right? Bonds is two tool at best, and his average is only a tool because of his low number of AB.

Bill Burgess

01-23-2006, 09:15 PM

Arod I'll buy, but Bill. Bonds? This thread title is about "current" players right? Bonds is two tool at best, and his average is only a tool because of his low number of AB.

Until we know if Barry will be fit to play at his accustomed level, I just don't know how we can deny him his benefit of a doubt.

I rank Barry the greatest active player, and Alex #2. I realize Barry could not have reached his present level cleanly, but he is still the most productive force in BB, if he can play without injuries hobbling him.

Vlad Guerrero, Carlos Beltran, Albert Pujols, Andruw Jones, or Manny Ramirez are simply not in his class as an offensive force of production, when Barry throws it into high gear. He's simply in a category all his own, even if he cheated to get there.

Not even the Babe could match Barry on a per season basis, since 2001. Both had low ABs due to the excessive walks, many of them intentional. If they would pitch to him, he'd have the normal number of ABs.

Bill Burgess

ElHalo

01-23-2006, 09:23 PM

ElHalo

01-23-2006, 09:32 PM

Wow. What an unjustified opinion. But you made that opinion before last season began. But with last year's stats, I'm sure your feelings have evolved. I just don't see how anyone could leave off Bonds/Alex Rodriguez, and be taken seriously. Must guard your credibility, Jim. And aren't you the one who refuses to join me in eye-witness reports being taken seriously? And aren't you basing all your thoughts on your eyes?

As always happens, this is a year old thread. You can tell that I was overcome with bitterness over ARod's spectacularly dissappointing 2004 season. He was better in 2005, but he's still not as good as he looks on paper. Defense is atrocious, and he gets his runs in bunches.

Remember, he had a 10 RBI game. I believe the Yankees won that game 13-2, so it didn't really mean all that much. Take that one game away, and he drops 4 points in BA, three points in OBP, 17 points in SLG, 10 RBI, 3 R, 4 H, and 3 HR. He falls from 2 to 3 in BA, 1 to 4 in SLG, loses the R crown to Jeter and the HR crown to Ortiz, and goes from fourth to sixth in RBI. That's the thing I hate about HR hitters: They get their run production in bunches, which often means that they get it when it's not really necessary. I'd much rather have a guy who produces one run a game for 162 games than a guy who produces five runs a game once every five games.

Sultan_1895-1948

01-23-2006, 09:37 PM

Until we know if Barry will be fit to play at his accustomed level, I just don't know how we can deny him his benefit of a doubt.

Apparently he just announced on his website that he's pulling out of the World Classic. A week ago, it was announced that an Olympic style steroid testing policy/punishment policy would be in effect.

I rank Barry the greatest active player, and Alex #2. I realize Barry could not have reached his present level cleanly, but he is still the most productive force in BB, if he can play without injuries hobbling him.

Maybe it's my fault for misunderstanding the thread. But being a great offensive force only does not an all around great player make. Regardless of injuries, Barry can no longer run, he's a liability in the field, and he's never had a good arm.

Not even the Babe could match Barry on a per season basis, since 2001. Both had low ABs due to the excessive walks, many of them intentional. If they would pitch to him, he'd have the normal number of ABs.

Bill Burgess

Babe couldn't match Barry since 2001. And Barry was how old starting in 2001-present; 36? That should tell you something right there.

Barry

2000 - 480 AB - .306 AVG
2001 - 476 AB - .328 AVG
2002 - 403 AB - .370 AVG
2003 - 390 AB - .341 AVG
2004 - 373 AB - .362 AVG

You don't see a pattern here Bill? The more AB he would get, the more toward his career norm he would get to. The laws of baseball and averages would have time to kick in. Then of course there's the advantage of him hitting with such a small zone.

Bill Burgess

01-24-2006, 06:06 AM

That's the thing I hate about HR hitters: They get their run production in bunches, which often means that they get it when it's not really necessary. I'd much rather have a guy who produces one run a game for 162 games than a guy who produces five runs a game once every five games.

Amen, Jim. I do agree with you on this particular point. Sluggers tend to help their team when they homer, while the best contact, High-BA. type hitters help their teams, day in, day out.

But, . . . the BEST sluggers carried high BA. too. And Barry, in his best years, was a very splendid high-BA. hitter. We just don't know if Barry will be injury-free this season, and if so, if he'll be able to maintain his level of productive form of the last few seasons. I understand that he may not be able to play at all, and if so, he might fall apart due to a combination of injuries/age/diminished skills catching up with him.

Bill Burgess

csh19792001

01-24-2006, 06:49 AM

This might be my favorite post of all time.

Most of Mordeci's posts are my alltime favorites, and I've been here since November of 2003. :D

csh19792001

01-24-2006, 06:54 AM

That's the thing I hate about HR hitters: They get their run production in bunches, which often means that they get it when it's not really necessary. I'd much rather have a guy who produces one run a game for 162 games than a guy who produces five runs a game once every five games.

Exactly.

And the slugger, decades later, looks better on paper and people drool over his numbers, even though he may have actually done less to actually help his team win. Jimmy Wynn hit a homerun once every 8 games....so what? Like Adam Dunn, how much is he contributing offensively on a regular basis to help his team win if all he can do at the plate is walk and strikeout?

csh19792001

01-24-2006, 06:59 AM

Barry

2000 - 480 AB - .306 AVG
2001 - 476 AB - .328 AVG
2002 - 403 AB - .370 AVG
2003 - 390 AB - .341 AVG
2004 - 373 AB - .362 AVG

You don't see a pattern here Bill? The more AB he would get, the more toward his career norm he would get to. The laws of baseball and averages would have time to kick in. Then of course there's the advantage of him hitting with such a small zone.

Very good point, Sultan, and one usually neglected ironically enough, by those who call themselves hardcore statisticians. Guys who walk a ton are going to tend to have better rate stats simply due to the lack of regression to the mean; the more AB's one has over a season, the harder it is to maintain a high avg/slg.

This factor is compounded in stats like OPS+ (which completely negates quantity) and which people use with reckless abandon to evaluate players.

csh19792001

06-21-2006, 05:54 PM

538280

06-21-2006, 06:16 PM

Might be mine too. :D

Chris, Adam Dunn is not Dave Kingman. Dave Kingman not only hit for a low average, but couldn't walk and thus couldn't get on base. Dave Kingman sucked in the field, Dave Kingman couldn't run, Dave Kingman would never hit a double or a triple.

Adam Dunn is fairly fast for his size, will occansionally steal a base, and gets on base a ton with his walks. Adam Dunn has a strong arm and can field. Adam Dunn has some value outside of that once in every 15 ABs when hit an HR, Dave Kingman didn't. Look at their games and you'll see a million differences between Kingman and Dunn. It's just not a valid comparison. I'm sorry.

And the slugger, decades later, looks better on paper and people drool over his numbers, even though he may have actually done less to actually help his team win. Jimmy Wynn hit a homerun once every 8 games....so what? Like Adam Dunn, how much is he contributing offensively on a regular basis to help his team win if all he can do at the plate is walk and strikeout?

Love the stab right at me with Jimmy Wynn. You seriously don't understand what Wynn brought to a ballgame. Wynn was a fast runner, a very good fielder who brought true excitement to the game with his SBs, titanic HRs (he really could kill the ball, especially for a little guy. Hit the furthest HR in the history of Crosley Field), and cannon for an arm (that and his HRs is why they called him the "Toy Cannon"). Jimmy Wynn was an electrifying player who brought excitment to the game and brought the Astros franchise into respectability. He was nothing at all like Dave Kingman. There's no resemblacne there. If I had to pick a comp for Wynn, I'd pick Bobby Bonds or Darryl Strawberry. Guys who had big power but also got on base a lot with walks and were electrifying with speed, defense, throwing arms, and great exciting presence they brought to ballgame despite having a low BA. Comparing Jimmy Wynn to Dave Kingman (or even Adam Dunn) is a completely ludicrous comparison.

Myankee4life

06-22-2006, 10:00 AM

I skimmed through so excuse me if its been disscussed but

concerning current all-around players Bonds deserves to be nowhere on this list.

1. A-rod
2. Beltran
3. Tejada
4. Abreu
5. Bay

RuthMayBond

06-22-2006, 10:06 AM

I skimmed through so excuse me if its been disscussed but

concerning current all-around players Bonds deserves to be nowhere on this list.

2. Beltran
And Beltran does?

Myankee4life

06-22-2006, 10:17 AM

currently Beltran .286/.400/.617 19Hr's 55RBI's 53RS 12SB
Bonds .244/.456/.487 10Hr's 30RBI's 31RS 0SB

Also Beltran has a better arm and is GG caliber centerfielder.

Bonds is plainly a liability.

You were saying?

thecoach

06-22-2006, 10:33 AM

You know it is a shame that we as baseball fans can't enjoy this game for what it is. A GREAT GAME!

It would be nice to look at all players no matter what team, what region of the country, what color and enjoy there ability and their accomplishments. My god, I think Derek Jeter is a wonderful player, and an asset to the game, and his team, but to say he is one of the five best players in the game today is pure rubbish. I will not become involved in this kind of post when people who do are so closed minded. Just food for thought!

csh19792001

06-22-2006, 11:53 AM

Bonds is plainly a liability.

You were saying?

In terms of being a liability in the field, Bonds is one of the worst fulltime players I've ever seen this year. Too bad he can't hit anymore, either. .244 with a .487 slugging?

thecoach

06-22-2006, 01:07 PM

In terms of being a liability in the field, Bonds is one of the worst fulltime players I've ever seen this year. Too bad he can't hit anymore, either. .244 with a .487 slugging? Lucky people still think he's Steroid Bonds and walk him incessantly. Otherwise the guy would be useless at this point.

Thank you for proving my point!

Sultan_1895-1948

06-22-2006, 01:11 PM

I want to thank you also Chris. For being factual.

thecoach

06-22-2006, 01:52 PM

You can't enjoy the game unless you slam Bonds?

Where have I ever slamed Bonds? It is people who do or slam anyone for that matter I think are out of line!:hp

csh19792001

06-22-2006, 03:10 PM

I want to thank you also Chris. For being factual.

You're welcome, Randy.

baseball junkie

06-22-2006, 05:54 PM

1.) Carlos Beltran
2.) Carl Crawford
3.) Alfonso Soriano (only because the Nationals won't move him back to 2b)
4.) Albert Pujols
5.) Alex Rodriguez

SF Kid

06-22-2006, 06:34 PM

1. Ichiro Suzuki (how has nobody mentioned him?)
He's pretty damn good. Can't argue with you on his choice although I don't like him much. His mannerisms just drive me nuts. :shrug:

Bill Burgess

06-22-2006, 08:17 PM

I can't believe what I've read here. Let there be peace, brothers. Let there be peace.

If warfare is compulsive, use the PM alternative, or the 'Ignore' feature. If venom is spewed, it will disappear instantly as I see it.

Bill

Sultan_1895-1948

06-22-2006, 08:33 PM

Huh? What happened? Musta missed somethin'. Oh well. :noidea

tommydale1

06-22-2006, 08:40 PM

1. David Wright
2. Carl Crawford
3. Ichiro
4. Vlad
5. A-Rod

Props to Soriano (and I usually don't say "props"), but his defense is a little shaky. The people on this list can do it all.

SF Kid

06-22-2006, 08:41 PM

I'm not sure how Barry Bonds can be included right now as he is a shadow (sic) of his former self. Are we talking about the top players as of right now?

tommydale1

06-22-2006, 08:46 PM

Just to add a bit:
David Wright is a stud with the leather and the lumber. Pujols is the best hitter in baseball..he probably should have made my list, but I took Vlad instead. No one has mentioned Derek Lee either. He should be mentioned also. He is possibly the best defensive first baseman in baseball. A couple of more years comparable to last year and he would be at the top of my list with WRight as a close second. I'm just not sure if his bat is for real, or if he is another George Foster.

Bill Burgess

06-22-2006, 08:46 PM

I'm not sure how Barry Bonds can be included right now as he is a shadow (sic) of his former self. Are we talking about the top players as of right now?
I included Barry before the season commenced. Things have obviously changed and Barry may no longer be a top player ever again. Chances look slim.

Randy. You don't want to know. Be glad you missed it.

Bill

nosoupforyou

06-22-2006, 09:18 PM

Pujols
Ichiro
Jeter
Vlad
A-Rod, as much as I hate to admit it, A-Rod is one of the greatest in the game today. I absolutely can't stand him, he is such a crybaby. Hopefully Pujols can bounce back quick from his injury, he is the best player in the game today. How about we start one for pitchers. That would be a tough one.

Murderers Row

06-22-2006, 11:01 PM

Wow, I see we have a ******** Yankee fan who believes Derek Jeter is better than Alex Rodriguez. EH, were you one of those "fans" booing him two weeks ago? You say A-Rod wasn't the player he once was. Not too many players are the same at age 31 as they were 25 or 26. He's not a contact hitter? Well he never really was. 1996 was a fluke year. He hit .358 and never came close to that again. A-Rod always struck out in his career. He struck 120+ every year for the past 8 years. Jeter is no where near A-Rods league. Let alone top 5. He's not even top 15. A-Rod might not hit in the clutch as much as you want him to but, if you plug in Brocius on the 05' Yankees they wouldn't have gone to the playofffs.

My top 5
A-Rod
Pujols
Vlad
Soriano
Sizemore

Murderers Row

06-22-2006, 11:02 PM

Yankwood

06-23-2006, 01:14 AM

Wright can't throw to save his life.And Carmen Electra is a lousy cook.

Sultan_1895-1948

06-23-2006, 02:24 AM

I included Barry before the season commenced. Things have obviously changed and Barry may no longer be a top player ever again. Chances look slim.

Randy. You don't want to know. Be glad you missed it.

Bill

Okay Bill.

Btw: Out of respect, I will not say "I told you so" regarding post #58, even though I was referring to the past few seasons ;)

Sultan_1895-1948

06-23-2006, 02:32 AM

And Carmen Electra is a lousy cook.

lol, and a ferrari is out of windshield wiper fluid

Andruw/Reyes/Pujols.

tommydale1

06-23-2006, 07:16 AM

And Carmen Electra is a lousy cook.

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. :laugh :laugh :laugh

Captain Cold Nose

06-23-2006, 07:39 AM

And Carmen Electra is a lousy cook.
I'm sorry, but if a third baseman doesn't have an arm, isn't that a big flaw? It's not like Steve Garvey hating to throw from first. That's the type of thing that teams can take advanage of. It's a bit more important than a model's (or trophy's) cooking skills.

Myankee4life

06-23-2006, 09:18 AM

Ichiro should'nt really be included on these lists....seeing as he doesnt have enough power to be considered an all-around player

Yankwood

06-23-2006, 09:24 AM

I'm sorry, but if a third baseman doesn't have an arm, isn't that a big flaw? It's not like Steve Garvey hating to throw from first. That's the type of thing that teams can take advanage of. It's a bit more important than a model's (or trophy's) cooking skills.I see this guy play about 4 games a week and if that's his biggest flaw, at least 28 other teams would be glad to put up with it. I'm sure he'll improve his throwing. And when Carmen puts on weight and gets older, her culinary skills will probably improve also. :coffee

Bill Burgess

06-23-2006, 09:50 AM

Ichiro should'nt really be included on these lists....seeing as he doesnt have enough power to be considered an all-around player
You're kidding, right? Surely thou pullesteth our chains, in jestivities? Not serious, are we? Please to explain, kind sir.

260 hits? What's not to love? OF cannon for an arm? I'm puzzled.
But then, when am I not? Life is so confusing.

Billbo

Honus Wagner Rules

06-23-2006, 09:53 AM

I see this guy play about 4 games a week and if that's his biggest flaw, at least 28 other teams would be glad to put up with it. I'm sure he'll improve his throwing. And when Carmen puts on weight and gets older, her culinary skills will probably improve also. :coffee
Who says Carmen can't cook already? Plus she's in her late 30s already and she still looks good. I bet she looks good into her 50s...:p

Myankee4life

06-23-2006, 10:17 AM

You're kidding, right? Surely thou pullesteth our chains, in jestivities? Not serious, are we? Please to explain, kind sir.

260 hits? What's not to love? OF cannon for an arm? I'm puzzled.
But then, when am I not? Life is so confusing.

Billbo

Ichiro is great at 4 out of the 5 tools. All-around players can do anything. They can run ( Ichiro does), Field (ichiro can), throw(certainly can), hit for avg(most def) hit for power (not so). I think Ichiro does what he does incredibly well but hitting for power is part of the ingredient for all-around players.

Bill Burgess

06-23-2006, 10:41 AM

Ichiro is great at 4 out of the 5 tools. All-around players can do anything. They can run ( Ichiro does), Field (ichiro can), throw(certainly can), hit for avg(most def) hit for power (not so). I think Ichiro does what he does incredibly well but hitting for power is part of the ingredient for all-around players.
True enough. But is it possible that he realizes that by going for the long ball, he'd shave too many points off his BA, & he won't be having it? Wouldn't you counsel him to continue along his chosen career path, if he asked you?

Good contact hitters like Ichiro, Rose, Boggs, Gwynn, Carew, etc., if they made different career choices, and tried to incorporate more power into their skills resume, might have seriously unbalanced their game, and hence their value to their teams.

To say that eliminated them from the 'all-around player' category is tricky. I have problems with that definition.

That's like saying a slugger wasn't an all around guy if he had defensive/running/SO issues. Or am I proving your case for you?

Bill

Murderers Row

06-23-2006, 10:47 AM

True enough. But is it possible that he realizes that by going for the long ball, he'd shave too many points off his BA, & he won't be having it? Wouldn't you counsel him to continue along his chosen career path, if he asked you?

Good contact hitters like Ichiro, Rose, Boggs, Gwynn, Carew, etc., if they made different career choices, and tried to incorporate more power into their skills resume, might have seriously unbalanced their game, and hence their value to their teams.

To say that eliminated them from the 'all-around player' category is tricky. I have problems with that definition.

That's like saying a slugger wasn't an all around guy if he had defensive/running/SO issues. Or am I proving your case for you?

Bill

I think you are proving his case, Bill. When you say all-around player he thinks of the 5 tools. I agree with him. Is Manny Ramriez an all-around player? Hell no, but aside from Bonds, he is the best hitter we have seen in the past 10 years. I don't think Ichiro is an all-around player because he lacks power. But who cares? He's fine the way he is, even if I don't think he's an all around player.

Bill Burgess

06-23-2006, 11:38 AM

I think you are proving his case, Bill. When you say all-around player he thinks of the 5 tools. I agree with him. Is Manny Ramriez an all-around player? Hell no, but aside from Bonds, he is the best hitter we have seen in the past 10 years. I don't think Ichiro is an all-around player because he lacks power. But who cares? He's fine the way he is, even if I don't think he's an all around player.
Tony. Agreed. Was playing the Devil's Advocate. I'm hip to all these things too. But sometimes it's fun to play dumb, just for amusement kicks.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!

Fun is in.

Bill

Sultan_1895-1948

06-23-2006, 01:32 PM

Well, in today's game where 2 tools makes you great, and 3 tools make you a freak of nature, I think asking for 5 tools here is a bit much to ask. I would definately consider Ichiro an all around player.

Murderers Row

06-23-2006, 02:30 PM

Sultan_1895-1948

06-23-2006, 05:03 PM

A-Rod has 5. I think Sizemore has 5. Vlad has 4 1/2. (not enough speed,but not slow) Now that Soriano is in LF I think he has 5. Jason Bay has 4 or 5. Pujols has 5. Miguel Cabrera has 4 1/2. Those are just some off the top of my head.

I think your definition may differ from mine.

In all fairness, there should be at least 6 tools.

Fielding -

Arm -

Baserunning -

Speed -

Average -

Power -

Pujols is missing only speed and arm imo.

Miguel Cabrera is missing arm, speed, and probably fielding and baserunning depending how how loose you want to be.

Andruw has everything except maybe average.

Reyes has everything except power and average, and his power could be added if you include triples and homers together.

Murderers Row

06-23-2006, 06:33 PM

I go by

Average
Power
Speed
Fielding
Arm

Sultan_1895-1948

06-24-2006, 01:08 AM

Right. That's what most go by. I like to add baserunning as a distinct category because you can, much like in the case of Pujols, have baserunning as a tool without speed being one.

I think we just disagree on the magnitude requirement for each skill to be a tool. You say that Miguel is a 4.5 tool player. That blows my mind. I'm assuming you're only giving him a half for speed, right. I wouldn't give him a tool for that. He's closer to getting the baserunning tool from me than a speed tool. His arm and fielding are adequate enough to produce good results day in and day out, but by no means mind-blowing or well above average; are they? They could be a tool for him depending on how loose you want to be though.

yankillaz

06-24-2006, 07:07 AM

My 5 Best Current All-Around Players:

1. Bonds
2. A-Rod
3. I-Rod
4. Suzuki
5. Griffey, Jr.

Honorable Mentions:
Vlad Guerrero, Carlos Beltran, Tori Hunter, Jim Edmonds, Todd Helton, Larry Walker, Alfonso Soriano, Albert Pujols, Eric Chavez, Derek Jeter, Andruw Jones.

Bill Burgess

By the word CURRENT, B-Bonds and I-Rod get notched. All-Around players nowadays is a dying breed, but if i had to pick five:

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Carlos Beltran
3. Derek Lee
4. Bobby Abreu
5. David Wright

Honorable Mentions: Jason Bay, Alfonso Soriano, Vlad Guerrero.

As one of you guys mentioned, we have to clear out which is the correct definition of All-Around: Power, Speed, Average, Arm, Deffense. These five players i listed excel in all of those.;)

yankillaz

06-24-2006, 07:11 AM

Bill Burgess

06-24-2006, 07:18 AM

Any other category that we place in the five-tool mark, is just our way of introducing certain player, and not quite what Five-Tool means. Although, i do consider as a SIXTH tool: INSTINCTS. That covers anything that goes from baserunning, dp ability, patience, etc...and that should go as a whole.
What you refer to as instincts, most of us call 'Intangibles'.

By that we mean: leadership, ability to inspire, dugout/clubhouse cohesion/harmony, fighting qualities, tenacity, resourcefulness, ability to play other positions, teach hitting, manage, a pitcher's ability to pitch out of turn, etc., a pitcher's ability to learn/create new pitches, a pitcher's ability to hit/run/field, etc.

HammeRDrop

06-24-2006, 09:53 AM

I'm thinking one day, if not soon, Francouer will be a great 5 tool player.

Average: Maybe one day.
Power: Yes, for sure.
Speed: Good speed for a big man.
Fielding: Pretty good.
Arm: Oh yeah.

Sultan_1895-1948

06-24-2006, 11:53 PM

Any other category that we place in the five-tool mark, is just our way of introducing certain player, and not quite what Five-Tool means. Although, i do consider as a SIXTH tool: INSTINCTS. That covers anything that goes from baserunning, dp hability, pacience, etc...and that should go as a whole.

If we introduce that last "tool", my list wouldn't differ at all.

Not so sure "instincts" should be a tool. Most major leaguers possess great baseball instincts as they relate to different aspects of the game. It would be impossible to have a something as a tool without having great instincts, as far as baserunning and fielding go, because that's precisely what makes one great in those areas. So its a bit redundant and uncessesary imo. I'll stick with speed as a sixth, with the possibility of intangibles being a seventh. To each their own ;)

yankillaz

06-25-2006, 06:32 AM

What you refer to as instincts, most of us call 'Intangibles'.

By that we mean: leadership, ability to inspire, dugout/clubhouse cohesion/harmony, fighting qualities, tenacity, resourcefulness, ability to play other positions, teach hitting, manage, a pitcher's ability to pitch out of turn, etc., a pitcher's ability to learn/create new pitches, a pitcher's ability to hit/run/field, etc.

By that we mean: leadership, ability to inspire, dugout/clubhouse cohesion/harmony, fighting qualities, tenacity, resourcefulness, ability to play other positions, teach hitting, manage, a pitcher's ability to pitch out of turn, etc., a pitcher's ability to learn/create new pitches, a pitcher's ability to hit/run/field, etc.[/QUOTE]

Instinct is not quite an intangible. I like more the Sultan's definition. Intangibles are things that we cannot measure. I used the term many times in order to quite down the Statfreaks. But instinct is different, is something that do shows on paper, because its results CAN be measure.

Those things you show are indeed Intangibles.

yankillaz

06-25-2006, 06:33 AM

Not so sure "instincts" should be a tool. Most major leaguers possess great baseball instincts as they relate to different aspects of the game. It would be impossible to have a something as a tool without having great instincts, as far as baserunning and fielding go, because that's precisely what makes one great in those areas. So its a bit redundant and uncessesary imo. I'll stick with speed as a sixth, with the possibility of intangibles being a seventh. To each their own ;)

True, instinct shouldn't be consider a "tool". I agree on that. The thing is that some of the things that a player produces due in large part because of his SUPERIOR instincts, are cited among you guys as "tools". Therefore, that's the reason why i mentioned it.

mordeci

06-25-2006, 11:26 AM

The ultimate '5-tool' player has to be Adam Dunn. He can do it all:
1. Hitting for power
2. Walking
3. Striking out for average
4. Striking out for power
5. Clutch striking out

How can you tell a true 5-tool player? His pants fit like glove.

Sultan_1895-1948

06-25-2006, 12:51 PM

True, instinct shouldn't be consider a "tool". I agree on that. The thing is that some of the things that a player produces due in large part because of his SUPERIOR instincts, are cited among you guys as "tools". Therefore, that's the reason why i mentioned it.

Gotcha; I agree.

Mordeci brings up Dunn. He's an interesting hitter really. I think he's a classic case of how a guy can draw a bunch of walks without actually having a good eye. The walks he does get, seem to come when the pitcher just completely misses his spot, not missing by 4-6 inches. Dunn will swing at those pitches, which is why he strikes out a ton. A lot of walks, not a good eye.

csh19792001

06-25-2006, 03:03 PM

Gotcha; I agree.

Mordeci brings up Dunn. He's an interesting hitter really. I think he's a classic case of how a guy can draw a bunch of walks without actually having a good eye. The walks he does get, seem to come when the pitcher just completely misses his spot, not missing by 4-6 inches. Dunn will swing at those pitches, which is why he strikes out a ton. A lot of walks, not a good eye.

Good point.

Dunn is also classic case where a guy can draw a lot of walks, hit a homerun every four games, and end up looking much better on paper ex post facto than he was in reality. Sure, he created X number of runs at the end of the year, but in the long run, do you want a .220 hitter up there who strikes out a ridiculous one third of the time up there in a key situation where your team needs a hit? A guy who's incredibly slow, clogging up the bases even if he does manage to draw a walk? The guy's K rate makes Reggie Jackson look like a great contact/discipline hitter.

All runs are not created equal.

mordeci

06-25-2006, 07:02 PM

Good point.

Dunn is also classic case where a guy can draw a lot of walks, hit a homerun every four games, and end up looking much better on paper ex post facto than he was in reality. Sure, he created X number of runs at the end of the year, but in the long run, do you want a .220 hitter up there who strikes out a ridiculous one third of the time up there in a key situation where your team needs a hit? A guy who's incredibly slow, clogging up the bases even if he does manage to draw a walk? The guy's K rate makes Reggie Jackson look like a great contact/discipline hitter.

All runs are not created equal.
I agree almost completely. Dunn's actually not slow. He played TE at Texas one year (recruited as a QB) and had 19 SBs in '02 (9 CS). Other than that you pretty much have his number.

csh19792001

06-25-2006, 07:24 PM

I agree almost completely. Dunn's actually not slow. He played TE at Texas one year (recruited as a QB) and had 19 SBs in '02 (9 CS). Other than that you pretty much have his number.

Glad a die hard Reds fan agrees. I'll bet the steals he has have been mostly those "of opportunity", as they say. I guess there is a semantic quibble over "slow" vs. "olf-like". I get to see him quite a bit, but I'm sure you get to see his butchery basically every time the Redlegs play. So I'll defer to you on the specifics of the intricacies of his skillset, coupled with his uncanny Dave Kingman doppleganger nature. ;)

It does pay off occasionally, but can you imagine how much better he'd be without the hubris in the way, cutting down on that around the body swing and occasionally hitting the pitches for liners and or even singles? Anyone who can hit the ball 500ft has immense talent and hand eye coordination.

roachboyevo

07-10-2006, 09:05 PM

The best all around player is unequivically Carlos Beltran. His versatility puts him above everybody.

GiambiJuice

07-11-2006, 06:21 AM

Arod
Pujols
Beltran
Vlad
Utley

Wade8813

07-11-2006, 02:22 PM

Best 5 right now?

Pujols
Garciaparra
Andruw
Ramirez
Rolen

Best 5 current players using their best year?

Bonds
Griffey
A-Rod
Frank Thomas
Pujols

rsuriyop

07-11-2006, 05:08 PM

...........

Outta Here

07-12-2006, 07:04 AM

Right now, but not based on this season alone...

Pujols
Beltran
Rodriguez
Guerrero
D. Lee

phillydj

07-12-2006, 09:56 AM

I have to add a vote for Vernon Wells, and not just because of the throw last night. In terms of the five tools, he's strong in all of them. A great player who really flies under the radar.

I'll rank them:
1) Pujols
2) Beltran
3) A-Rod
4) Guerrero
5) Wells

DJ

sturg1dj

07-12-2006, 11:13 AM

What about Pujols?

the guy has now played 3 positions in the Majors....and played them well. He is also playing an excellent 1b and I believe he will eventually win a gold glove

yankillaz

07-14-2006, 10:59 PM

Best 5 right now?

Pujols
Garciaparra
Andruw
Ramirez
Rolen

Best 5 current players using their best year?

Bonds
Griffey
A-Rod
Frank Thomas
Pujols

Better All-Around Players, not Hitters.

mystro9876

10-16-2006, 03:19 PM

My Top 5....I WILL GIVE POINTS FOR ANYONE WHO THINKS ANYONE ELSE SHOULD BE ON THIS LIST....

1) A. Puljois - If he is not #1 - you are a hater, and I hate him. BUt he is the most consistant hitter, and pretty clutch
2) D. ORTIZ - CLUTCHEST American League Hitter
3) I. SUZUKI - HE is almost guranteed a run a game
4)Ryan Howard - Best Numbers since BBonds
5)A-ROD - 10 straight amazing years..

6) A. Jones - Who would pick Beltran over him. They pretty much have the same stats, except Andruw has won 6 straight Gold Gloves

7)T. Haefner - Great all-around player
8) VLAD - Most of the best all-around hitters, most consistant, adn best arm in OF
9) Manny Ramirez - Year in, year out
10) Vernon Wells
11) Carlos Delgado - usually hits for a better average than this past year
12) Jason Bay - Great for the future of the game
13) Carlos betran - Hits .270 a year, not that good, first season ever hitting over 30 Hrs
14) Derek Lee - One good year - seemed to have a lot of potential, in the field and at the plate
15) Alfonso Soriano - (I think he deserves to be highter after the 40/40 season
16) Derek Jeter - Only for the postseason
17) Jim Thome - Only for HRs

LAnce Berkman - DEFINTITELY TOP TEN, TOTALLY FORGOT!!!
Miguel Tejada - Definitely top ten - take beltran and veron wells off
mIGUEL cABRERA - Totally forgot - Great all-around player

UTforever22

10-16-2006, 03:25 PM

Vlad doesn't belong on an all-around list. He is a terrible fielder.

vlad won't win any gold gloves, but he has a great arm which has to count for something

Sultan_1895-1948

10-16-2006, 03:30 PM

Very strong arm, but loses some accuracy when he lets fly. Vlad often takes poor angles and has trouble changing direction.

UTforever22

10-16-2006, 03:45 PM

Currently, however, he's not the player he once was. He's not the player Tony Phillips once was. Great defense, sure. And no clutch hitting, whining attitude, and poor contact hitting.

since when does batting 302 w/men in scoring position, 313 with men in scoring position and 2 outs and 474 with the bases loaded count as well as batting .358 in september as no clutch hitting. and .290 as poor contact hitting. And wouldn't you be whining if your own fans were booing you. Arod did have the season he is capible of, but it was certainly better than any season Tony Phillips had. I am one of the biggest yankee haters there are (i actually have nothing against the players, just "the boss") and i really respect A-rod and wish yankee fans would quit their bitching about his so called "lack of production" arod absolutley deserve to be on that list

Honus Wagner Rules

10-16-2006, 03:50 PM

Not so sure "instincts" should be a tool. Most major leaguers possess great baseball instincts as they relate to different aspects of the game. It would be impossible to have a something as a tool without having great instincts, as far as baserunning and fielding go, because that's precisely what makes one great in those areas. So its a bit redundant and uncessesary imo. I'll stick with speed as a sixth, with the possibility of intangibles being a seventh. To each their own ;)
I prefer to use the term INTELLIGENCE over instincts. Instincts are really just learned actions. Intelligence is the application of those learned actions at the proper moment in a game to move your team closer to scoring or on defense moving the opposing team closer to the end of their inning.

Honus Wagner Rules

10-16-2006, 03:53 PM

jeterMVP

10-16-2006, 03:58 PM

1. Derek Jeter
2. Ichiro
3. Alfonso Soriano
4. Albert Pujols
5. Alex Rodriguez

No Big Poopy because he's slower than molasses and i've never seen his throw or catch a ball

Sultan_1895-1948

10-16-2006, 04:04 PM

I prefer to use the term INTELLIGENCE over instincts. Instincts are really just learned actions. Intelligence is the application of those learned actions at the proper moment in a game to move your team closer to scoring or on defense moving the opposing team closer to the end of their inning.

Jesus, where'd ya dig that quote up from...page 2 ;)? Anyway, I agree. One thing is crystal clear to me. Base-stealing and base-running should be separate tools. Its very rare to have the former without the latter, but the latter without the former happens all the time. SB's are a bonus art-form that require dedication along with ambition, and are often era dependent.

Honus Wagner Rules

10-16-2006, 04:10 PM

Jesus, where'd ya dig that quote up from...page 2 ;)? Anyway, I agree. One thing is crystal clear to me. Base-stealing and base-running should be separate tools. Its very rare to have the former without the latter, but the latter without the former happens all the time. SB's are a bonus art-form that require dedication along with ambition, and are often era dependent.
Yes, I agree. One player that comes to mind is Will Clark. He was an excellent baserunner but had no speed at all.

Sultan_1895-1948

10-16-2006, 04:17 PM

Well, if a guy runs like cold syrup, then he's fightin' an uphill battle to be considered a great baserunner. You gotta have decent speed, but I getcha. Not hesitating while making proper decisions as you hustle goes a long ways. Pujols right now is an excellent baserunner with only average speed. I've seen him go first to third on balls others might not. Reading the outfielders position, angle to the ball, release time, knowing his arm strength, the game situation...he's great. Not the fastest in the game by any stretch but goes first to home as well as anybody, especially with less than two outs where that first reaction is crucial.

Ytown Tribe fan

10-16-2006, 05:25 PM

Beltran, Jeter, David Wright, Soriano, Utley.

RuthMayBond

10-17-2006, 06:18 AM

My Top 5....I WILL GIVE POINTS FOR ANYONE WHO THINKS ANYONE ELSE SHOULD BE ON THIS LIST....

1) A. Puljois - If he is not #1 - you are a hater, and I hate him. BUt he is the most consistant hitter, and pretty clutch
2) D. ORTIZ - CLUTCHEST American League Hitter
3) I. SUZUKI - HE is almost guranteed a run a game
4)Ryan Howard - Best Numbers since BBondsIf you're going one year, where's Jermaine Dye, Matt Holliday, Justin Morneau?

<5)A-ROD - 10 straight amazing years..

6) A. Jones - Who would pick Beltran over him. They pretty much have the same stats, except Andruw has won 6 straight Gold Gloves

7)T. Haefner - Great all-around player>

Interesting description of a DH

<8) VLAD - Most of the best all-around hitters, most consistant, adn best arm in OF
9) Manny Ramirez - Year in, year out
10) Vernon Wells
11) Carlos Delgado - usually hits for a better average than this past year
12) Jason Bay - Great for the future of the game
13) Carlos betran - Hits .270 a year, not that good, first season ever hitting over 30 Hrs
14) Derek Lee - One good year - seemed to have a lot of potential, in the field and at the plate>

But no Jason Giambi?

<15) Alfonso Soriano - (I think he deserves to be highter after the 40/40 season
16) Derek Jeter - Only for the postseason
17) Jim Thome - Only for HRs

LAnce Berkman - DEFINTITELY TOP TEN, TOTALLY FORGOT!!!
Miguel Tejada - Definitely top ten - take beltran and veron wells off
mIGUEL cABRERA - Totally forgot - Great all-around player>

So how many points do I get? ;)