John Kruk vs Bo Jackson

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm testing out a theory here. Who was the better baseball player. If you had a team and you to take one them who would you rather take?

[Ubiquitous]

Depends.

If I need someone to energize the fan base and capture air time I sign Bo. If I actually wanted to win games I would sign Kruk and see if I could get him to maintain his physique. Bo for all the hype was not a very good baseball player. Perhaps he could have been if he solely concentrated on it, but I think he probably would have been a better football player either way. Bo had the gifts but he never really could use them properly.

Kruk is a hard one because while he was a decent hitter for average and a decent on base guy he had no real hitting for power ability. He didn't really hit homers or doubles. So if I could get him to keep in shape perhaps I keep him in left field if I can't I better be able to find the power at some other position.

[westsidegrounds]

Well, let's see ... Vincent E had a 692-game MLB career. In 1989, appearing in a career-high 135 G, he lead the league in strikeouts with 172.

On the other hand the Krukster appeared in 1200 games, and owns the 72d-best ever career OB%.

[charlesblalack@yahoo.com]

We're comparing maybe the best overall athlete in history against perhaps the worst. But there's no doubt in my mind that Kruk would have more value to my team.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I'll take the guy who could run a sub 4.3 forty vs. a guy who could pound 4.3 beers in forty seconds. Football was better suited for Bo's athletic brilliance, since baseball is more about timing, instincts, angles, and jumps. Still though Bo could do things, albeit seldom, that few others could do whether it be a football or baseball field.

[Brian McKenna]

We're comparing maybe the best overall athlete in history against perhaps the worst. But there's no doubt in my mind that Kruk would have more value to my team.

yeah, jim thorpe couldn't hit a curve ball either

by the way have you seen jackson lately - he's about the same size as kruk now

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The reason I started this poll was because of a comment 538280 said about fewer African Americans in baseball today as opposed to the 1970s. Fewer Arfican Americans in baseball today supposedly means fewer great athletes in baseball today. While this may be true I don't think it really means anything. I have a strong belief that basebll is very different from football and basketball. Baseball requires completely different skills. In football, for instance, great speed, great strength, and size gives a player tremendous advantages but the athletic skills needed for football are far less. There is a difference between talent and skill. Talent is something an athlete is born with: speed, strength, size, hand-eye coordination, and intellegence. These things are pretty much hardwired into every athlete. While training can increase these things by a small amount the amount of improvemnt is quite limited. You can't take an athlete with average speed and turn him into a world-class sprinter no matter how much intense training and desire he has.

Skill on he other hand is "learned" through hours and hours of intense training. And hitting in baseball is an incredible difficult skill to learn. Think of Ted Williams and Tony Gwynn spending thousands and thousands of hours practing their hitting. They obviously had certain athletic talents (great eyesight, hand-eye coordination, strong hands, etc.) that allowed them to maximize their potential as hitters but only through repetitous training did the realize that potential and turn it into offensive production. In football athletic talent is the first thing teams look for. They mentality is find a great athlete and we will teach him to play football. I'll give you three examples of this:

1) Chrisitan Okoye- Running back, KC Chiefs
The Nigerian Nightmare didn't play any football until he was 23 years old in 1984. He was a football and track star in college. He was an amazing athlete, 6'-1", 260 pounds. He won seven national titles in the discuss, shotput and hammer throw. He a brilliant, but short NFL career (knee injuries). He was a two-time Pro-Bowler. Okoye's athletic abilitied allowed him to play in the NFL with hardly any football experience all. He went to a small school, Azuza Pacific, hardly an NCAA football powerhouse.

2) Bob Hayes- Wide Receiver, Dallas Cowboys, gold medalist, 100-m World Record Holder.
Hayes won the Gold medal in the 100 m in 1964 and is considered the greatest sprinter of all time. He was once clocked at 27.89 mph in a race. The Cowboys drafted him in the 7th round. The Cowboys thought his speed would be a great weapon. And it was. He changed how defenses play the game, creating all sorts of zone defenses to cover Hayes. He simply could not be covered man-to-man.

3) Renaldo Nehemiah, 110-m High Hurdles, World Record holder
Nehemaih was the greatest hurdler in history. From 1977-81 he utterly dominated his event. He then joined the 49ers and tried to make it as a wide receiver. He didn't play any college football. He wasn't not a great football player, he didn't have the hands to be a great receiver.

So what is the common theme here. Football coaches drool over athletic talent and these men all had it. This wouldn't happen in baseball. You can't take a 23 year old who has never played baseball and try to make him into a major leaguer.

Baseball, as a game, is closer to golf than football. Baseball and golf require tremendous hand-eye coordination, patience, and thousands of hours of practice. No one looks for "great athletes in golf do they?

So anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the lack of great athletes in baseball today does not effect the quality of baseball today.

[rockin500]

yeah, jim thorpe couldn't hit a curve ball either

by the way have you seen jackson lately - he's about the same size as kruk now


yes, thats what happens when you are an athlete who has a degenerative hip condition and who also happens to be a master cook.

[Joltin' Joe]

Didn't some guy in the Air Force get in trouble recently for saying that Blacks can run better than the other races or something like that? LOL I think he got in trouble for stereotyping. :rolleyes:
Of course we know that's true. Just look at all the top Olympic sprinters and runners!

Anyway back to topic. As-is, I would take Kruk by a hair. If Bo had concentrated solely on Baseball from his youth and came up through the systems, watch out!! I would take the baseball bred Bo by a mile! Same for Jordan. With his amazing athletic talent, had he concentrated solely on Baseball from his youth and came up through the system, I cannot even imagine how good he might have been.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Didn't some guy in the Air Force get in trouble recently for saying that Blacks can run better than the other races or something like that? LOL I think he got in trouble for stereotyping. :rolleyes:
Of course we know that's true. Just look at all the top Olympic sprinters and runners!

Anyway back to topic. As-is, I would take Kruk by a hair. If Bo had concentrated solely on Baseball from his youth and came up through the systems, watch out!! I would take the baseball bred Bo by a mile! Same for Jordan. With his amazing athletic talent, had he concentrated solely on Baseball from his youth and came up through the system, I cannot even imagine how good he might have been.
Bo was improving as a hitter. His walk rate went way up from 1989 to 1990 and his Ks went way down...

[leecemark]

--HWR, what you say is true and African-Americans did not dominate baseball, even at the peak of their participation, to the same extent they do the NFL or to anywhere near the same extent they do the NBA. They were, however, in the mid-70s represented at something more than twice their percentage of the population at large. African American participation is now well below their overall percent of the populace and about 1/3 of what it was at its peak. Make of that what you will, but it is not unreasonable to suggest that it means baseball is not getting as many of the best potential ballplayers as it once did.

[Ubiquitous]

I don't buy the whole blacks are superior athletes because of genetics steroetypes. Look at the NBA, where is all the great new talent coming from nowadays? Europe, and all parts of Europe. Europeans one could steroetype into saying they are not good athletes. Historically America and americans have kicked Europeans butt in most summer sports. Yet now they are the great new infusion of talent for the black dominated NBA.

[dgarza]

Bo had a strong arm and some speed in the field, but his glove work was not all that spectacular. Bo Ked about twice as much as Kruk. Kruk walked about twice as much as Bo.
Maybe Bo was over hyped, and maybe, just maybe, I would take Deion Sanders over Bo Jackson. Eh, probably not.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't buy the whole blacks are superior athletes because of genetics steroetypes. Look at the NBA, where is all the great new talent coming from nowadays? Europe, and all parts of Europe. Europeans one could steroetype into saying they are not good athletes. Historically America and americans have kicked Europeans butt in most summer sports. Yet now they are the great new infusion of talent for the black dominated NBA.
There is a difference between basketball and say sprinting. Baseket is a "skill" sport and sprinting is not. Go back 30-40 years and look at the 100 meter Olympic final. How many whites do you see in the final? For the past 20 or so years the 100 meter Olympic final has been prety much all black sprinters. How do you explain that?

[Bench 5]

I agree with Ubiquitous. I think that there are obviously some sports that are dominated by certain ethnic groups. But I don't think that translates to an any ethic group having better athletes. I think the implication that a decrease in the number of black players in the majors has led to a decrease in the athleticism in the game is false. I don't think that the athletic ability of modern baseball players overall is any less than it was in the 70s or 80s.

I can think of one player off the top of my head that goes against your theory. Ron LeFlore. He played little if any baseball growing up and yet he became a good player for several years. He was known for having poor baseball instincts which is understandable since he didn't play the game as a child. But he became a good hitter and great basestealer.

[DoubleX]

I'd take Jackson, so long as he promised to give up football and concentrate on baseball full time. In terms of pure athletic ability, Bo was a marvel. He probably could have been an Olympic track athlete as well. I think the unfortunate injuries he suffered is one of the greatest dissapointments in sports. I would have loved to have seen how far Bo could have gone, especially if he had chosen to dedicate himself to just one sport and honed all his ability thusly.

Nevertheless, if I'm picking between the two players and Bo tells me that come pennant race time, he's going to have some NFL football on the mind (and wear on the body), I'll probably go with John Kruk.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

You guys should check out the book "Taboo" : Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It, by John Entine and Earl Smith.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You guys should check out the book "Taboo" : Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It, by John Entine and Earl Smith.
I've read parts of this book. It dicusses the genetic differences between whites and blacks and its implications in sports.

[Transplanted Fan]

To answer the original question, Kruk had the better career statistically, but by all accounts, if I had to pick who was the better player, I'd have to say Bo. If he would have commited to baseball full-time, he likely would have become a top-tier outfielder, a perennial 30-30 guy with outstanding range in center and a cannon arm. He probably would not have been Hall worthy, but definitely would have been an All-Star fixture throughout the 1990s. Instead, he tried the two-sport approach, which left him unable to put in a full season (be it by fatigue or scheduling conflicts) and led to his ultimate demise.

Bo could do just about everything except for bat for average. John Kruk batted for average, but not much else. I'll take Bo.

[AlecBoy006]

Bo was runnin up walls while Kruk was munchin on donuts.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Keep this up Alec, and you may replace RMB as the most frequent "one-liner" member :cool:

[AlecBoy006]

Is that good or bad?

[KCGHOST]

I saw Jackson play many a game here in KC and he was really lacking as a baseball player and had difficulty accepting coaching. You could never take your eyes off him because periodically he would do somethjing you had never seen before (run up a wall, hit an HR to Mars, throw someone out from I-70, break a bat over his head, etc). The problem was that was only every once in a while. He had trouble focusing day in and day out. His baseball intuition just wasn't developed to any kind of level. Despite blinding speed he never swiped more than 27 bases in a season His high strike out rate was due to his total inability to hit a decent high fastball. His BA in the 8th an 9th innings was extremely low.

As a baseball player Kruk was definitely better. Bo never had a season with 20 RCAA. Kruk had four of them.

[AlecBoy006]

Yeah, Kruk had TOO much power..... he wasn't even the best player on his TEAM.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

I believe that if Bo had concentrated soley onbaseball he would have had far superior numbers to John Kruk.

Plus John Kruk is an absolute idiot on ESPN.

[plask_stirlac]

Bo Jackson could contribute when he hit a homer (30 games?) or stole bases, but he wasn't incredible at either nor was he well-rounded at all. It would be a slight to Kruk to take Bo. Sure, Bo was lightning that could light up the sky, but it didn't exactly present a long-term lightin solution.

Kruk wasn't the worse baseball athlete ever, not even close. Maybe Fielder, Randall Simon, David Wells.

Bo hit 86 career doubles in 2393 AB. He had a 3-year peak of 12 3B, Kruk had 20. He was a 71% base thief, Kruk was at 65%.

Bo hit one XBH every 10 AB, Kruk every 12. His OPS peak was .865 (lg .709 on ref), Kruk's career mark was .843 (lg .724). He fielded like Adam Dunn but worse, Kruk was fine overall.

Obviously OBP is a Tyson-Spinks KO. Kruk's low was .367, Jackson's high was .342.

[mwiggins]

I'm testing out a theory here. Who was the better baseball player. If you had a team and you to take one them who would you rather take?

Kruk was the better player, but Jackson WOULD have probably been much better sans injury.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I guess we all had different memories of Bo. To me he was not a good baseball player. He had no instinct for the game. He was a butcher in the OF. He struckout a ton and didn't really walk much. Why people would even think he was even an above average hitter is beyond me. He had tremendous power of course but he cracked 30 HRs just once. I don't think Bo would have been a great baseball player even if he would not had injured and would even if focused on baseball at age 18. He just didn't have great baseball talent.

[AlecBoy006]

^I can seriously not picture Kruk doing the athletic things Bo did.

[White Knight]

If he would have commited to baseball full-time, he likely would have become a top-tier outfielder, a perennial 30-30 guy with outstanding range in center and a cannon arm. He probably would not have been Hall worthy, but definitely would have been an All-Star fixture throughout the 1990s. Instead, he tried the two-sport approach, which left him unable to put in a full season (be it by fatigue or scheduling conflicts) and led to his ultimate demise.

I don't know. He would have peaked in the "PED era". Bo on steroids in 1998 might have hit a ton of HRs. Who knows. Look at his massive strength and size, and that was without steroids...

[White Knight]

A better poll might be in 1990, Bo Jackson vs. Jose Canseco - in a fight. Man, I used to debate that with my stupid friends when I was 16. :)

[dl4060]

I'll take Kruk, as a better, albeit far less spectacular, player. Kruk was a .310 hitter at his best, with a bit of power, and a good batting eye. At his best he was a threat to win a batting title.

Bo Jackson had become a good, but not great, player before he got hurt. While the only real asset he had was power, his power was pretty significant at the time he played. I think he was a legitimate borderline all-star player when he was injured. I don't see him as a superstar, no matter how much baseball he played. Despite his incredible athletic ability, I don't think Bo's natural hand-eye coordination was at a one in a million level. I think there was a ceiling to how good he would have become.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wow, talk about digging up an old thread. I forgot I started this thread. :)

[Bench 5]

A better poll might be in 1990, Bo Jackson vs. Jose Canseco - in a fight. Man, I used to debate that with my stupid friends when I was 16. :)

After watching Canseco get knocked out last week in 30 seconds, I think I would take Bo. :rofl:

[White Knight]

After watching Canseco get knocked out last week in 30 seconds, I think I would take Bo. :rofl:

What happened? I didn't hear about this. :confused: He did beat two guys up in a bar about 10 years ago who were hitting on his girl, so he's not to be under-estimated.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What happened? I didn't hear about this. :confused: He did beat two guys up in a bar about 10 years ago who were hitting on his girl, so he's not to be under-estimated.

Canseco got knocked out by former Philadelphia Eagles return man Vai Sikahema. :rofl: Canseco 6'4" 245 lbs had a significant size advantage over Sikahema 5'9" 205 lbs. However, Sikahema had 80 amateur fights when he was younger and was trained by Larry Holmes for this fight. The outcome was not too surprising.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3485127

[EdTarbusz]

I was stationed in San Diego when Kruk was a Padre prospect, and I can only think of one or two prospects (Sabathia in Cleveland and Brien Taylor) who were as highly touted in his market as Kruk was. It may just have the unpopularity of Carmelo Martinez and Kevin McReynolds in San Diego, but the sheer amount of talk about Kruk in mid 80s San Diego was remarkable.