Is there a such thing as a small-market team?

[redlegsfan21]

Is there a such thing as a small market team? The reason I'm asking this is because Toronto is considered a medium market team and they been spending like the Yankees.

I beleive no because a combination of owners not spending money and TV packages and interet video streams let people root for any team.

[Jake83]

Yes

There is an obvious difference in some markets

[Brian McKenna]

there is a HUGE difference when considering local broadcasting $

[Jake83]

LA and NY's markets have 20 million people each. What is Cincinatti's or Cleveland.

[Yankee Legend]

I beleive no because a combination of owners not spending money and TV packages and interet video streams let people root for any team.

He does bring up a good point here. Inovations in technology have allowed us to see games that we couldn't normally see before. Also, even in new york here i have met people who are fans of the rockies, indians, pirates and royals. All of which are "small-market" teams.

[Brian McKenna]

how does a couple guys rooting for the brewers if they live in say las vegas or anywhere else turn into extra $ for the brewers to compete against the free spenders?

"small market" is an economic term

[ElHalo]

Is there a such thing as a small market team? The reason I'm asking this is because Toronto is considered a medium market team and they been spending like the Yankees.

If Toronto was in the United States, you know where it would rank amongst US cities in population?

Fourth. Behind New York, LA, and Chicago. No, I'm not kidding.

All of those towns have two teams to split their funds between. So if you cut those towns' populations in half, Toronto comes in second, behind New York, and well ahead of the others. Toronto is in no way, shape, or form a small market city.

But as to there being such a thing as a small market team... have you ever been to Kansas City? Or Tampa Bay?

The city of Tampa has a population of 303,000.

As of the 2000 census, Long Island, the New York suburb which juts out along the southern coast of Connecticut and has a grand total of no major league baseball teams, only one minor league team (The Long Island Ducks of Islip, in the Atlantic Association) (and only one major league sports team, the New York Islanders of the NHL)... has two towns with more people than the city of Tampa: Brookhaven (448,248); and Hempstead (755,924). And almost a third, Oyster Bay (293,925). So, yes, there is indeed such a thing as a small market team.

[Jake83]

If Toronto was in the United States, you know where it would rank amongst US cities in population?

Fourth. Behind New York, LA, and Chicago. No, I'm not kidding.

All of those towns have two teams to split their funds between. So if you cut those towns' populations in half, Toronto comes in second, behind New York, and well ahead of the others. Toronto is in no way, shape, or form a small market city.

But as to there being such a thing as a small market team... have you ever been to Kansas City? Or Tampa Bay?

The city of Tampa has a population of 303,000.

As of the 2000 census, Long Island, the New York suburb which juts out along the southern coast of Connecticut and has a grand total of no major league baseball teams, only one minor league team (The Long Island Ducks of Islip, in the Atlantic Association) (and only one major league sports team, the New York Islanders of the NHL)... has two towns with more people than the city of Tampa: Brookhaven (448,248); and Hempstead (755,924). And almost a third, Oyster Bay (293,925). So, yes, there is indeed such a thing as a small market team.


Kansas City's market is alot bigger than alot of other teams

[Jake83]

If Toronto was in the United States, you know where it would rank amongst US cities in population?

Fourth. Behind New York, LA, and Chicago. No, I'm not kidding.

All of those towns have two teams to split their funds between. So if you cut those towns' populations in half, Toronto comes in second, behind New York, and well ahead of the others. Toronto is in no way, shape, or form a small market city.

But as to there being such a thing as a small market team... have you ever been to Kansas City? Or Tampa Bay?

The city of Tampa has a population of 303,000.

As of the 2000 census, Long Island, the New York suburb which juts out along the southern coast of Connecticut and has a grand total of no major league baseball teams, only one minor league team (The Long Island Ducks of Islip, in the Atlantic Association) (and only one major league sports team, the New York Islanders of the NHL)... has two towns with more people than the city of Tampa: Brookhaven (448,248); and Hempstead (755,924). And almost a third, Oyster Bay (293,925). So, yes, there is indeed such a thing as a small market team.


I believe Houston is bigger than Chicago now.

The problem is not the city istself because S.F. has only 650,000 people and is considering a low big market team. Boston for another example or Washington DC. The population of a city does not determine the market size. The CSMA, the population of the metro area, local media and fan support.

[The Big C]

Yes, because small market refers to things in relative terms.

[ElHalo]

I believe Houston is bigger than Chicago now.

As a general rule, I try not to consider Texas to be part of the same country I live in. Nevertheless, the latest population estimates I could find (7/1/2004) have Chicago in third at 2,862,244, with Houston fourth at 2,012,626.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

As a general rule, I try not to consider Texas to be part of the same country I live in. Nevertheless, the latest population estimates I could find (7/1/2004) have Chicago in third at 2,862,244, with Houston fourth at 2,012,626.
Well, Texas was once it's own sovereign nation from 1836-1845. :p

[Jake83]

After its last major export I wish it was a sovereign nation again

[Mattingly]

LA and NY's markets have 20 million people each. What is Cincinatti's or Cleveland.
I'd have to hear from some of the Oakland or San Fran folks, but from what I've heard, there's a big rivalry between those two sports towns because they're right across the river from each other. However, Oakland has a much larger population, as San Francisco is only about 3/4 million people.

Regardless of the actual stats, if two teams are in very similar markets, then how does one define the term "small market"?

If you look at it, both Kansas City and St Louis should be in about the same sized market, since they are in the same state--Missouri. However, one could generally argue that since the Royals aren't anywhere close to being competitive, they would be "small market", whereas the Cards, which have been to the WS in 2004 and the NLCS in 2005, would not be small market.

What defines a team's market size? Its actual population? The "greater" area surrounding it? It's level of success?

If, as an example, the Phillies or the Twins made their respective LCS series for 2-3 seasons straight, would they still be considered "small market", as I'd generally consider them presently? Or would they be considered amongst the big boys in baseball?

[Jake83]

I'd have to hear from some of the Oakland or San Fran folks, but from what I've heard, there's a big rivalry between those two sports towns because they're right across the river from each other. However, Oakland has a much larger population, as San Francisco is only about 3/4 million people.


?


Right accros the Bay you mean. The rivarly is not sports but plain econmics Oakland is a blue collar working town city while San Francisco is what considered yuppie with the highest housing market of any city.

[Jake83]

Market size can be determine by alot of different fators. But the 3 main factors in my opinion our CSMA Population, Size of Media and winning.

Ceratin teams have big markets because they have a large area of support Boston in N.E. Chicago in the Midwest St. Louis in the Mid South and Atlanta in the South

[redlegsfan21]

The Reds have had pretty large broadcasting area since 700 WLW started to broadcast games. 700 reached Toledo to Nashville, Champaign to Cleveland, and this is just how far I have tries to tune in and got it. This means that Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana, and Illinois could listen to the Reds from their base station and there is a station in Mississippi, Virginia, and West Virginia that broadcast Reds baseball.

[efin98]

there is a HUGE difference when considering local broadcasting $

Not really.

Boston is the 6th laregest TV market yet Boston can barely keep games on the air any more locally. The Red Sox are down to just one game a week in Boston!

The key is stretching the fan base out regionally, up to about 250-300 miles away. Adding cities to the fan base adds up to alot of fans. It works for Boston, the team has well over 4 million fans all over the six New England states compared with maybe 1 million fans if the team stayed local.

[efin98]

Market size can be determine by alot of different fators. But the 3 main factors in my opinion our CSMA Population, Size of Media and winning.

Ceratin teams have big markets because they have a large area of support Boston in N.E. Chicago in the Midwest St. Louis in the Mid South and Atlanta in the South

The large area of support in New England is due to the Red Sox making an effort to court the fans from the northern, western, and southern reaches of New England. It's the effort that pays off for teams, the more they try to get out and bring in new fans from around their base city the more fans and revenues they can utilize.

If Boston did not make the effort to reach out to fans then we may be looking at a team like the Pirates or Reds here in Boston, hardly something to smile about and handly a "major market"...

[trosmok]

Not small markets, just small minds.:D

Teams like the Reds, Braves, and Cubs have all used their super-station broadcasts to enlarge their markets beyond their immediate vicinity, beyond their region, and into fans all across the country. The Mariners are even marketed successfully overseas to Japan and fans all over the west coast and Asia. The Yankees are as well known around the world as any sports franchise; only Ali is bigger on a global scale.

I don't think of any baseball market as small, unless it is being purposely tanked like Montreal was, or the Marlins are this off season.

[trosmok]

... norther.... hadly something to smile about and handly a ...

Weren't Hadly and Handly middle infielders for the Islip Illiterates of the Norther League? :laugh

[efin98]

Weren't Hadly and Handly middle infielders for the Islip Illiterates of the Norther League? :laugh

Can't add anything new so you act like a child:rolleyes:

Excuse my poor grammar, I was typing while trying to cook at the same time.

[digglahhh]

I believe that there are ways to expand your market, one if which is by winning.

Isn't there much evidence that states that the best for a team's financial success is to win. I think if some teams spent like big market teams, and did so wisely, in turn improving their team, the result would be somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[efin98]

I believe that there are ways to expand your market, one if which is by winning.

Isn't there much evidence that states that the best for a team's financial success is to win. I think if some teams spent like big market teams, and did so wisely, in turn improving their team, the result would be somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look at Oakland and the Twins in the past five or so years. They fielded great teams the past few years and have been used as examples of "small market" teams...then look at Baltimore, the Mets, and LA in the mid and late 90s- all three spent alot of money on free agents and hot young talents but have little to show for it(one World Series appearance between the three!)...

[Jake83]

Not small markets, just small minds.:D

The Yankees are as well known around the world as any sports franchise; only Ali is bigger on a global scale.

.


Yankees are far behind Manchester United and other European soccer clubs

[mojorisin71]

I'd have to hear from some of the Oakland or San Fran folks, but from what I've heard, there's a big rivalry between those two sports towns because they're right across the river from each other. However, Oakland has a much larger population, as San Francisco is only about 3/4 million people.

Oakland is at about 400,000 people, and media-wise, San Francisco, Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin, San Mateo, and Santa Clara Counties all constitute the Bay Area market. There was a rivalry of sorts a few years ago ("you can go to Oakland for free, but you have to pay $3 to go to San Francisco" was a common sign on billboards and taxicabs in the late 1990s), and there's the sharp contrast between Oakland and the City. Which is why I don't get that SF is a big-market team and Oakland is a small-market team, when there isn't much difference in Giants and A's attendance figures over the last 30 years.

[VTSoxFan]

The large area of support in New England is due to the Red Sox making an effort to court the fans from the northern, western, and southern reaches of New England...

This may be true now, but historically most of New England has been filled with Sox fans from the team's very inception, well before the modern marketing of the team. My ancestors were Sox fans even before the Sox won their five Series titles in the 1910s.

[digglahhh]

I just wanted to throw the point about spending out there.

"Small market teams" is often a misnomer, when we refer to them, often we are really refering to teams that don't spend a lot of money.

This is not to say that some of these owner can't afford to spend, but that they choose not to. That was basically the crux of my point.

[mojorisin71]

Case in point: SF and Oakland. The Coliseum is about 20 miles from SBC Park, yet the Giants are considered "big market" and Oakland is considered "small market"

[runningshoes]

Yankees are far behind Manchester United and other European soccer clubs

I've been all over the world and I can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone with a Yankee cap or shirt. I rarely see Manchester or any other soccer team for that matter.

[Jake83]

I've been all over the world and I can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone with a Yankee cap or shirt. I rarely see Manchester or any other soccer team for that matter.


Simple numbers prove my statement. NY Yankees are worth half of ManU according to Forbes. To say the Yankees are the most known sports organization around the world is a lie

[runningshoes]

Sorry, but it's not a lie.

Do you have any idea how how much merchandise is out there that the Yankees never see a dime from?

I don't even want to guess, but I can tell you it's staggering.

[efin98]

This may be true now, but historically most of New England has been filled with Sox fans from the team's very inception, well before the modern marketing of the team. My ancestors were Sox fans even before the Sox won their five Series titles in the 1910s.

True that there has been a fan base all around but during the last few decades the team has tried hard to get interest in the team outside of the Greater Boston area. It's a big reason for there being a AAA, AA, and A team near Boston.

[efin98]

Sorry, but it's not a lie.

Do you have any idea how how much merchandise is out there that the Yankees never see a dime from?

I don't even want to guess, but I can tell you it's staggering.

A large chunk of that merchandise is not meant to represent the team but rather the city or something else. I see that alot around Boston with gangs of youths...almost all of them are Red Sox fans yet sport the familiar black and white "NY" caps.

[Jake83]

Sorry, but it's not a lie.

Do you have any idea how how much merchandise is out there that the Yankees never see a dime from?

I don't even want to guess, but I can tell you it's staggering.



I am going by the numbers alone. I think in the future MLB teams can be worth and have the same market as European soccer teams but it will take a long time

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Sorry, but it's not a lie.

Do you have any idea how how much merchandise is out there that the Yankees never see a dime from?
I don't even want to guess, but I can tell you it's staggering.

I bet you won't complain about that. :laugh :laugh

[west coast orange and black]

mojo: The Coliseum is about 20 miles from SBC Park, yet the Giants are considered "big market" and Oakland is considered "small market"

the oakland coliseum can be seen from the seat of a giants game attendee -- the only such occurrence in baseball, i believe -- but there are factors other than simple distance, mojo.

neighboring santa clara, home of silicon valley, is the main fan base of the giants. stacked with san francisco proper and marin counties (one of the state's wealthiest), the giants money is more than the a's, which depends on deaw from blue collar alameda and contra costa counties.