Hitting Instruction for Young Players [Archive]

jbooth

01-04-2006, 02:39 PM

Hi guys,

I have been following the hitting thread and decided to start another thread with a different twist.
The question: Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older?

Looking at some of the graphics supplied on the hitting thread reminds me that we in baseball seemed to have moved away from a hitting the ball down mentality to a hit it long mentality. Essentially a swing with a downward moving plane versus one that swings off parallel at 20-45 degrees.

I have had this question raised many times in the clinics I run and have always advocated an inside swing, hitting down on the ball. I feel the homerun kings should be developed later.

Any thoughts?

You're under the misconception that not swinging down, means swing for the fences. Why would you want to swing down? You either miss the ball, hit a grounder, or pop up.

Pitchers want you to hit the ball on the ground, so why would you accomodate them?

The swing I teach doesn't teach you to try to hit the ball over the fence, it allows you the best chance to hit the ball, and hit it hard, and if you have enough strength, a ball hit well might go out. I teach the swing that Barry Bonds uses and he hits grounders, line drives and pop ups more often than he hits home runs. Why do you think teaching his swing is incorrect? He doesn't swing down.

Ted Williams said that he tried to hit every ball in the air, yet he still hit at least half of his batted balls on the ground.

Swinging down almost guarantees failure, swinging like all the guys I showed in the photos I posted, allows you to hit the ball consistently and hit it hard, but it doesn't mean it always goes on a HR trajectory.

jbooth

01-04-2006, 02:44 PM

Guess before I post anything I should check out the other thread. But since I'm being lazy I'll go ahead. One of the coaches at the local high school put on a clinic for 7-13 year olds a few weeks ago and used an analogy that was great. The station was set up with the ball on a hitting T. There was a second T about 1.5 feet behind the T with ball and the second T was elevated higher so that the kids had to swing at a downward angle. He used the analogy of landing a plane, which with small kids was something they could relate to. I thought it would be neat to attach some kind of toy air plane to the end of a dow rod and the kids could get a good visual representation as to what the swing should look like.

That almost guarantees failure. That is the worst dang drill in baseball. Nobody in pro ball swings like that. That is the Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens type of swing that guarantees a low batting average and no HR's.

hiddengem

01-04-2006, 03:18 PM

jbooth

01-04-2006, 03:49 PM

I agree. But what do you do for a kid that has a serious loop in his swing and his hands drop befor he swings?\

Tell him to keep his hands near his armpit and just turn his shoulders to move the bat. Tilt the spine so the head is toward the plate and turn the shoulders. The back shoulder will move down as you rotate, and the hands will move in unison with the shoulder. You have to get kids to understand that they don't swing the bat with their arms. Yes, the arms and hands are involved, but the swing has to START with the hips and shoulders. The hands must NOT be the first thing to move.

As Yogi Berra supposedly said;

a rookie says to Yogi,

"Yogi I keep dropping my hands when I swing. What should I do?"

Yogi replied; "Stop dropping your hands when you swing."

hiddengem

01-04-2006, 05:44 PM

\

Tell him to keep his hands near his armpit and just turn his shoulders to move the bat. Tilt the spine so the head is toward the plate and turn the shoulders. The back shoulder will move down as you rotate, and the hands will move in unison with the shoulder. You have to get kids to understand that they don't swing the bat with their arms. Yes, the arms and hands are involved, but the swing has to START with the hips and shoulders. The hands must NOT be the first thing to move.

As Yogi Berra supposedly said;

a rookie says to Yogi,

"Yogi I keep dropping my hands when I swing. What should I do?"

Yogi replied; "Stop dropping your hands when you swing."

Makes sense.

hit-it-hard

01-04-2006, 10:44 PM

I'd absolutely recommend teaching the same swing at any age. The instructional method will differ but the same basic swing should be taught, IMO. Emphasis on the items Jim listed, plus intent (hit the ball hard) as well as making sure you watch mechanics closely for some of the bigger common problems which occur - the looping swing plane, too much arm/hand action, bat drag, hip slide.

Jake, why you would want to teach young kids to swing differently than older ones? Is there some benefit you can see to doing that?

hit-it-hard

01-04-2006, 10:53 PM

I think Jim's points were very good. Only thing I'd add is a (hopefully) clarifying point to this comment (not sure if he agrees or not):

The back shoulder will move down as you rotate, and the hands will move in unison with the shoulder.

I'd say the rear shoulder will move downward as a side-effect of rotating while tilted over the plate... there is no active shoulder drop. So on a high pitch, little or no shoulder drop occurs at all because there is little or no tilt. Not sure if this is any clearer... but hoping to avoid the teeter-totter of dropping the rear shoulder and incorrect swing plane for a high pitch.

HG has a good point about kids and their looping swings. See it a lot. Personally I've found the thing that works the best is an explanation/demonstration to them showing that there is no looping/uppercutting in a good swing. Depending on their age you have to figure out how to explain it - might be using a stick across the chest as they turn, might be walking through video of a good hitter for a kid that's a little younger, something like the animated swing plane posted in the other swing thread, etc. Somehow they have to get a true mental image of what their swing is really supposed to look like. (Important in the other areas as well... staying connected, the contact point, etc.) One thing that usually indicates to me that younger kids "understand" what they need to do is that they can show you the the proper motion at a slow speed.

Ursa Major

01-05-2006, 12:50 AM

Jake, IMHO, one of the most important things that you can do for young hitters is to increase the time that the bat is in the same path that the ball is traveling through, so if the kid's timing is off, he'll still make some contact. A pitched ball will descend when it comes to the plate at a 15 to 25 degree downward angle, depending on pitch speed. If the kid swings down, he either meets the pitch at the exact spot where the bat/ball trajectories meet, or he misses it. If he swings slightly up, he still has a good sized zone where even a mistimed swing will "get good wood".

With a slight uppercut, a topped ball will at least get a lot of topspin and maybe skip past the infielders or zip over their heads and then die in front of the outfielders, like a good Bjorn Borg topspin netskimming forehand. If he gets under it, maybe all that backspin will give the ball enough carry to cause some trouble. On the other hand, it drives me nuts to see some kids (and my son sometime has been one of 'em) swing down on the ball and meet it on the bat's sweet spot but just under the center of the ball. The hit looks nice, but the shortstop backs up five steps and hauls in the little looper.

Here's an example from my son's team last spring, during the playoffs. The 11 year old hitter hadn't had an extra base hit all year. On a decent fastball high/inside but a strike -- and you can track its slightly downward path by following the yellow arrow -- the boy turned on it and got just a hair under it. If he'd been swinging downward with that kind of contact, he would have hit a soft liner to shortop. But, by matching the ball's incoming path, his trajectory and the backspin put the ball in the eggplant beyond the left field wall.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/SPHomer0611PiratesSm.gif

I think coaches advocating downswings are trying to deal with kids up uppercut and pull their heads off the ball. I say, deal with that problem, not the swing itself.

One reason that kids drop their hands is in fact out of a desire to start the swing in a level path to make sure they'll sweep through the ball at some point. Unfortunately, the get no power and, relying on their hands, can't get up to a high strike and can't get around on a fast pitch. There are a zillion drills to reinforce their need to go directly from their launch position toward the ball. One I like (as does Ripken, I recently read) is to force kids to practice their swing using just their bottom hand. (They can rest the bat handle on their upper arm's bicep, if need be.) If they hitch (i.e., drop their hands) or otherwise rely on their hands too much, they'll barely get the bat around and the side of their bottom hand will hurt. But, if they use their hips, middle and shoulder to start the swing, at the end of the swing the bat will take off on it's own with little or no need for the bottom hand to do anything. JBooth demonstrates the principle with this (http://firstpickclub.com/video/boxexp3.mpg) little gizmo.

It's good to see JBooth pull himself out of his rocker to address this. I swear, Jim can be in the woods forty miles from a computer, but by gum if someone posts a hitting idea that sounds remotely like a Lau/Hudgens technique, Jim'll detect it like Lassie sniffing out a forest fire and come out to wrestle the idea to the ground. He's been very successful with young hitters and knows his shi... er ... stuff.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 07:32 AM

Jake, why you would want to teach young kids to swing differently than older ones? Is there some benefit you can see to doing that?

Younger kids are being taught the basics of the swing, i.e. proper grip, stance, load, head position, bat angle, etc. Older kids are typically taught the finer points of the swing. Building blocks. It would be fruitless to film and analyze a player at the T-ball level while it's a pretty common practice at the high school level.

I may have not stated my case well. Downward swing may be the wrong choice of words. I worked this past year with several batting instructors, one was Andy Walker (Former hitting instructor for the New Jersey Jackels) the other Chip Plante (14 years in college ball and now coaches for the Worcester Tornadoes -Can Am League - similar to AA).
We spent a great deal of time getting the bat to the hit zone without taking an outside route. A major problem we have had with young kids is dropping the back shoulder extending the arms allowing the bat to take a long outside swipe at the ball. Many of the kids we had at the clinic felt this was ok as this was the way "Manny swings." We all know its not.

We teach getting the bat down, through and up. A key teaching point used with young batters is driving the knob of the bat down to keep the swing compact, thus avoiding the long outside route. If you were to put a bat at your belly button and stand facing a fence or screen and then set up to swing, the batter would be able to swing without hitting the fence. I have a clip of this but it's too big for this format. send me an email and I'll attach.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 07:35 AM

Yes, the arms and hands are involved, but the swing has to START with the hips and shoulders. The hands must NOT be the first thing to move.

Hi JB - I agree with the above.

jbooth

01-05-2006, 12:28 PM

We teach getting the bat down, through and up.

You need to explain this one. It defies the laws of physics unless I don't understand what you mean.

A key teaching point used with young batters is driving the knob of the bat down to keep the swing compact, thus avoiding the long outside route.

Drive the knob down to where? And how? And why?

The knob should move from back shoulder to front shoulder on a line that is parallel to the tilt angle of the shoulders.

wogdoggy

01-05-2006, 02:07 PM

Guys check out this clip.Is it me or does Barry drop his hands before anything happens? the lattter part of the vid shows it a little better

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds12.mpeg

tadlock11

01-05-2006, 02:17 PM

That almost guarantees failure. That is the worst dang drill in baseball. Nobody in pro ball swings like that. That is the Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens type of swing that guarantees a low batting average and no HR's.
Maybe I didn't go into enough detail but definately don't know about Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens (please do inform me!)
The second T is elevated just slightly above where the ball is placed. This, I believe, is to prevent the hitter from looping his swing (extending arms). The airplane analogy was to land the plane (the back elbow staying in "V"), hit the ball where it's pitched and follow through.
After looking through your diagram on the other thread, this looks very much like what the coach was trying to teach.
After a few years of being on multiple baseball/hitting forums, I've realized the biggest problem is terminology. I've seen others and myself included, know what I'm trying to say but it comes across different in writing. A great advantage is the graphics and diagrams that some coaches have the talent to design. Those are great and I'm more of a show me don't tell me type person anyhow.
Thanks for the input.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 02:27 PM

You need to explain this one. It defies the laws of physics unless I don't understand what you mean.
Drive the knob down to where? And how? And why?
The knob should move from back shoulder to front shoulder on a line that is parallel to the tilt angle of the shoulders.

Hi JB I'll send you a clip we can beat up.

I typed out a page and it was painfully obvious to me I am unable to explain without showing. Check your email for the clips.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 02:41 PM

Maybe I didn't go into enough detail but definately don't know about Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens (please do inform me!)

Don't forget Walt Hriniak!!:noidea

tadlock11

01-05-2006, 02:42 PM

Guys check out this clip.Is it me or does Barry drop his hands before anything happens? the lattter part of the vid shows it a little better

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds12.mpeg

In the first clip, the camera is moving up while he is in his loading phase. If I'm not mistaken, when people talk about hitters dropping their hands, it is after they have completed the loading phase and start their actual swing.
Again this is just me rambling but what I think happens (in my case anyways) is a hitter will be getting in a rythm, then when they load - the hands drop a little.

JB-
I get stuck on things and in this case saying that the second T drill was the worst in baseball. Watching this video (the first angle) I was imagining the T there and to me it seems it would work well. Especially for teaching kids a proper swing. Your thoughts.

jbooth

01-05-2006, 07:50 PM

JB-
I get stuck on things and in this case saying that the second T drill was the worst in baseball. Watching this video (the first angle) I was imagining the T there and to me it seems it would work well. Especially for teaching kids a proper swing. Your thoughts.

Look at the nine MLB hitters below. Do you think any of their swings have the bat going down at the ball?

I modified the picture of Bonds. The yellow lines are your two tees. The circle is the arc of his swing and the red line is the path the bathead is on, toward the ball. His bat would cut through the first tee, not go over it.

None of these swings take the path you want to create by putting a higher tee on the backside of the impact point. The bathead goes UP into the ball, not down through it.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hitters/mlb9b.jpg

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 08:53 AM

[QUOTE=jbooth]Look at the nine MLB hitters below. Do you think any of their swings have the bat going down at the ball?

I modified the picture of Bonds. The yellow lines are your two tees. The circle is the arc of his swing and the red line is the path the bathead is on, toward the ball. His bat would cut through the first tee, not go over it.

None of these swings take the path you want to create by putting a higher tee on the backside of the impact point. The bathead goes UP into the ball, not down through it.

If you look at the plane the head of the bat takes, doesn't it go down first? It starts well up above the head of the batter and finishes in the hitting zone somewhere around the belt (depending upon the pitch).

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 09:08 AM

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 09:23 AM

jbooth

01-06-2006, 09:51 AM

Another observation - on these pitchers you can see the knob of the bat takes a slightly downward treck. and the ball is hit out in front of the hitting zone forcing the hands through the hitting zone. "Down - Through - and Up"

4728

Jake, you are so far off in your observations that it is hard to say where to start. The bat and hands do not take the path that your yellow lines marked.

Watch a swing in slow motion and see how everything moves.

I'm busy right now, but I'll put a movie clip and some stills together to show you where you are going wrong.

jbooth

01-06-2006, 09:53 AM

If you look at the plane the head of the bat takes, doesn't it go down first? It starts well up above the head of the batter and finishes in the hitting zone somewhere around the belt (depending upon the pitch)
4727[QUOTE=Jake Patterson

The bat doesn't move on the yellow lines as you have marked. I'll show you the real path in another post.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 11:06 AM

If you look at the plane the head of the bat takes, doesn't it go down first? It starts well up above the head of the batter and finishes in the hitting zone somewhere around the belt (depending upon the pitch)

Hate to gang up on you guy, but the yellow lines you have inserted aren't what actually a happened in these swings. This clip shows what i believe happened in these swings.

wogdoggy

01-06-2006, 11:19 AM

although i agree with booth the barry pic he drew in shows an absolute circle,even though the same theory is applied and booth is correct its not that dramatic.

tadlock11

01-06-2006, 01:37 PM

After watching many videos of Bonds and other MLB hitters on a frame by frame basis, I think again we have a mix up in what we are trying to say. Let's assume the ball is pitched belt high right down the pipe. The bat head will first move in a downward arc. From there is where we are getting all tied up. Wouldn't bat speed on the pitch depend on what part of the arc of the swing that contact is made? Let's say in the picture that Bonds got around on it correctly, the bat head would be on a collision course with the ball. Whereas if he were a little late, he may have made contact just as the bat was planing off. I had been taught that from contact to extension is the "level" part of the swing (not necessarily parallel with the ground, rather matching the angle of the ball or close to). Then the follow through will complete the arc back in an upward stroke as the wrists roll.
I was also wrong in my first post stating the back T was 1.5' behind the first. It may have been that way for 7 yr olds. After looking at the modified picture and grabbing my tape measure, I would say for an average sized adult, the second T would be around 2.5' back for this drill. One thing that I do want to emphasize is that I am NOT saying to continue the bat motion down, that ends just prior to contact. Now I'm hoping that can clear up some of my ill comm skills. :cool:

tadlock11

01-06-2006, 01:50 PM

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4737&stc=1&d=1136584206

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 02:01 PM

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4737&stc=1&d=1136584206

Do you believe that if you did your T drill with chipper in this swing that he would not hit the back T? Is this what you are picturing with your drill?

tadlock11

01-06-2006, 02:24 PM

I don't think he would - but that's the way I'm seeing it. Perhaps when I can add the Tee to the pic, it would help me to put it out there as to what I'm trying to get across.
This thread was intended for discussion on teaching children the same as adults. The drill I had mentioned would not be ideal for adults (I agree) as there are far too many different type of pitches and locations to deal with. This drill is for the purpose of keeping them from having a complete uppercut swing / as opposed to \_/
-I would say 7-9 year olds that are in machine-pitch ball could benefit from this drill as most of the pitches they see are in one location.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 03:33 PM

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 04:01 PM

Hate to gang up on you guy, but the yellow lines you have inserted aren't what actually a happened in these swings.

Obviously, it swings in an arc. I just can't draw a circle or arc on the computer, but the plane of the swing is what I am speaking of.

This clip shows what i believe happened in these swings.

I'll try one more time then I'll throw in the towel. The diagram you show still demonstrates a downward moving plane (understanding it's done in an arc and is not linear). The yellow line is moving downward at an angle (off parallell to the ground) at approximately twenty-five to thirty degrees. The same is true with the bat after it goes through the hitting zone. This is the "down" and "up" I speak of. I'll give up on "through." It may just be symantics.

I do not see anything wrong with the diagram.

4745

I'd like to go back and re-ask the original question. Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older? Many coaches I have run across feel there is a definative stepping stone approach.

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 06:25 PM

Found the following at: http://www.webball.com/skill/doubletee.html

Shows double tee drills.
4748

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 07:31 PM

Obviously, it swings in an arc. I just can't draw a circle or arc on the computer, but the plane of the swing is what I am speaking of.

I'll try one more time then I'll throw in the towel. The diagram you show still demonstrates a downward moving plane (understanding it's done in an arc and is not linear). The yellow line is moving downward at an angle (off parallell to the ground) at approximately twenty-five to thirty degrees. The same is true with the bat after it goes through the hitting zone. This is the "down" and "up" I speak of. I'll give up on "through." It may just be symantics.

I do not see anything wrong with the diagram.

4745

I'd like to go back and re-ask the original question. Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older? Many coaches I have run across feel there is a definative stepping stone approach.

I teach all my kids the same basic swing. I might use different words or ways of getting things across to a younger kid but its still making the same point. All kids are different, some are far more advanced than others, some need to learn how to hold a bat and what the correct hitting posture feels and looks like. Just depends.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 07:32 PM

Found the following at: http://www.webball.com/skill/doubletee.html

Shows double tee drills.
4748

I'm sorry Jake, if you think that the swing this guy is taking on the "post drill" is the same as chipper, we might as well throw in the towell.

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 08:08 PM

I'm sorry Jake, if you think that the swing this guy is taking on the "post drill" is the same as chipper, we might as well throw in the towell.

No I don't. I was searching for a double tee I saw used at America's Game in Waterford CT and found that. Not real sure what webball is trying to show.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 08:32 PM

No I don't. I was searching for a double tee I saw used at America's Game in Waterford CT and found that. Not real sure what webball is trying to show.

Ok, I wasn't if you were showing us that Double Tee because you like it or not.

bpvipers

01-06-2006, 09:32 PM

Ok, so my understanding of how Chippers bat path happened in this swing is in YELLOW. You can see that having a T higher in the back than in the front causes a bad arc in the swing and a "chop" if you will. Understand?

The tee is placed on the back outside corner of the plate. Chippers bat path will not cause him to "chop" the ball. The tee is used to prevent "casting" were the hands or elbow comes out first, instead of staying inside the ball.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 10:17 PM

The tee is placed on the back outside corner of the plate. Chippers bat path will not cause him to "chop" the ball. The tee is used to prevent "casting" were the hands or elbow comes out first, instead of staying inside the ball.

Actually thats not what we are talking about. That is a different drill entirely. And I know chippers bat path is not causing him to "chop" actually quite the opposite.

People Use 2 Tee's, one right behind the other and the back one being higher, I suppose to try and teach somebody to come down on the ball, which never happens in a high-level swing. Like this guy in the "Post Drill"
http://www.webball.com/skill/doubletee.html

hit-it-hard

01-07-2006, 12:15 AM

This is the "down" and "up" I speak of. I'll give up on "through." It may just be symantics.

I think this may be clear but just to make sure...

The reason you have this "down and up" is because the swing plane shown has been angled to reach the ball - not because of swinging down at the ball. If the hitter removed the forward bend at the hips so his spine was vertical (as occurs when hitting the high pitch), the swing plane shown in the skeletal diagram would be chest high and parallel to the ground and the "down and up" would be gone. So...

No need to teach to swing down, just teach how to set the swing plane properly.

Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older? Many coaches I have run across feel there is a definative stepping stone approach.

I still say teach the same swing. There are some things I'd recomend doing differently... use (or at least start with) a no stride swing, use simpler lower body loading mechanics (not saying less emphasis on loading, but I would show more advanced ways loading options to older kids), hit the ball deeper off a tee to emphasize remaining connected and proper contact position, etc.

In other words, I would try to make it as simple as possible for younger kids - hopefully get them to understand and be able to perform the basic concepts:

proper posture to align the swing plane and get the body ready to unload (i.e., loaded)
staying connected while swinging
effective rotation

If these basics are understood and used, you don't have to worry about things like "swing down" which is often used because of 1) a "loop" or "uppercut" because the kid thinks that's what Bonds is doing or 2) the hands are dropping to adjust swing plane - both of which occur because the kid really doesn't understand that the swing is in a plane and is set by tilting forward before rotating. In other words, I'd recommend concentrating on teaching proper mechanics instead of trying to avoid/fix a symptom of a poor swing.

tadlock11

01-07-2006, 04:43 AM

hiddengem

01-07-2006, 08:49 AM

I was checking out that webball site shown above and found this as one of their drills: http://www.webball.com/skill/batdrills.html
Chair Drill for Uppercutters Use an old bat and place a batting tee on front of home plate, with an old folding chair or a tall cone behind the tee. Make sure that the tee is just slightly lower than the back of the chair so that you must swing with a slightly downward angle in getting to the ball. Don't put the chair or cone too close to the tee--at contact you may want a very slight upward movement. If the hitter uppercuts, they will only hit the back of the chair, providing very noisy feedback.

Isn't that the same thing we've been telling you to avoid? Like hit it said. What happens if you stand stright up with a stright spine and swing. Your swing plane should be absolutely parallel to the ground, thus making this drill useless. When you bend over or tilt your spine forward (over the plate) and rotate, your swing plane is the same its just now angled downward a bit.

jbooth

01-07-2006, 10:35 AM

Chair Drill for Uppercutters Use an old bat and place a batting tee on front of home plate, with an old folding chair or a tall cone behind the tee. Make sure that the tee is just slightly lower than the back of the chair so that you must swing with a slightly downward angle in getting to the ball. Don't put the chair or cone too close to the tee--at contact you may want a very slight upward movement. If the hitter uppercuts, they will only hit the back of the chair, providing very noisy feedback.

Nobody in MLB swings down like that (bathead going from high to low toward the ball.) The bathead in an MLB swing gets below the ball and comes up at the ball, and they do it without dropping their hands or looping. They drop the back shoulder and tilt over to swing the bathead arc on a fairly vertical plane that also is a bit on an upward plane. I don't think some of you guys understand the difference between an arc and a plane.

The hands and back shoulder move in unison and the hands stay up and move around toward the front armpit, they don't immediately move off the line of the shoulders, down toward the ball (as Jake teaches and you are drilling.)

Here is one example (I could show you many more but I'm not going to waste that much time.)

To swing like an MLB player you would need to put the tee that holds the ball, higher than the back tee. Then you would be swinging like Griffey, Bonds, Jeter, Manny Ramirez and just about every MLB player. The bat goes up into the ball.

Look at this; the picture quality is bad so I put a black line over the bat so you can see it better. Note the path of the bathead (green) and the path of his hands (red) and the shoulder (yellow). They move to get the bathead down below the ball early, and then move up into the ball. The hands go down initially for an instant but they don't continue down, they go around and up before the bat contacts the ball.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hitters/griffypathsmarked.jpg

tadlock11

01-07-2006, 11:24 AM

jbooth

01-07-2006, 12:39 PM

That is a very good illustration and I don't disagree with what you are showing. If I may ask another question though. What drill do you recomend for a little league age player that has a "looping" swing? And by that I meam if he were doing the fence drill he would be ruining his bat.
Now that I've asked that, I'll come back with this - after a little observation, this seems to happen (looping swing) when the hitter doesn't get his hips around and has full extension before contact.

The kids move the bat with their arms. THAT is the problem.

In doing the fence drill, initially; have them put the bat against the outside of their shoulder, and their hands close to their shoulder. Make them turn their hips, and then their shoulders without moving their hands WHATSOEVER from their original starting point and keep the bat touching their shoulder until they have rotated to the point where their chest is facing the pitcher. Only at THAT point do your arms and hands move from their original spot, and the hands should move around the body toward where the front shoulder now is. NOT toward the ball, or the pitcher, or down toward the waist. The hands basically go from armpit to armpit and they don't move until the shoulders have rotated.

The problem you are trying to cure is, them using their arms to move the bat, instead of their body. Form a box with the hands and arms and learn to turn the box.

A saying that has been around for about a hundred years;
"Keep your hands back."
Actually means; turn your hips, then your shoulders while keeping your hands in their original spot ("back") at the armpit. NOT "keeping your hands back" means that you are moving the bat toward the ball with your arms, and you are doing it before or with your body turn. That is VERY bad.

Ohfor

01-07-2006, 01:24 PM

Good job jim.

Jake Patterson

01-08-2006, 08:44 AM

To help get this thread back on track I've attached the following from the Little League's official Training book called Advanced Baseball By Al Herback and Al Price.

Al and Al are used as the only official trainers for Little League Baseball and Softball International. I have spoken to Al Herback (A great guy) and I feel he believes teaching children is drastically different (my words not his) than teaching adults. The biggest difficulty I see in teaching hitting to children lies between Step's 2 and 3. Any comments???

4769 4770

Note: The above is copyright protected.
Sorry for the quality

Ohfor

01-08-2006, 09:24 AM

Based on the pictures, I'd have to say Al and Al have kept thousands from reaching their potential

jbooth

01-08-2006, 09:38 AM

To help get this thread back on track I've attached the following from the Little League's official Training book called Advanced Baseball By Al Herback and Al Price.

If you swing like that, you won't even do well in Little League let alone at any level higher than that.

And, to stay on track; I teach 7 year olds the same way I teach 17 year olds. Obviously, the words I use and my manner are different, but I go through the same drills and methodology.

I currently have four 7 year olds who are hitting 80% of the golf ball size wiffle balls that shoot out of a machine and they hit them with a SwiftStik.

I have one 9 year-old who literally fell down while swinging when he first came to me and couldn't hit any balls. He now, (after 10 lessons) hits 80% of the balls and doesn't fall down. Communication changes with the age of the student, but not the method of teaching, or the swing. I make sure they learn to balance, and turn their hips correctly, before I teach anything else. They MUST learn to keep the head still and rotate. Once they learn that, the rest is easy to fill in.

Jake Patterson

01-08-2006, 10:04 AM

They MUST learn to keep the head still and rotate. Once they learn that, the rest is easy to fill in.

There is a great deal of common ground...
Took a look at your TV show clip and what you are doing in California with kids. Seems like a great place...

tadlock11

01-08-2006, 01:16 PM

I have had my 10 yr old using a device called a "hands back hitter" for about a year now. It has helped him tremendously. With "keeping the box" would anyone recomend the soccer ball drill? (holding a soccer ball between the cone of the bat and shoulder)
Also for the rotation a drill that I've found to help is holding the bat behind the back around the waist. Never tried the soccer ball drill above that's why I'm curious about it.

hiddengem

01-08-2006, 05:16 PM

Ursa Major

01-08-2006, 06:46 PM

Based on the pictures, I'd have to say Al and Al have kept thousands from reaching their potentialActually, it's not too bad at the beginning.... until they start talking about the swing itself. Then, of course, no discussion about what happens to the body. And isn't it odd that the righty and lefty have completely different swings? What kind of training illustrations are they??!

I have had my 10 yr old using a device called a "hands back hitter" for about a year now. It has helped him tremendously. With "keeping the box" would anyone recomend the soccer ball drill? (holding a soccer ball between the cone of the bat and shoulder)Glad the hands back works for you. I would limit its use to getting a kid from starting his swing before his front heel plants. And, stomping on the string to get the ball released would seem to promote lunging. I suppose it's a bit better than just using a tee all the time. Beyond that, there is a risk that it promotes too much disconnection between the movement of the front knee, hips and shoulders. The force needs to flow up the body. I guess if the kid is used to the device, he can keep it flowing. Thanks for your observations. I've seen 'em but wondered if they really helped.

I'm not sure exactly how your soccer ball drill works out; it would seem to slide out from between the shoulder and bat too easily. Some players, especially girl softball players, like to stuff a stuffed toy between their hands and back shoulder, then swing. Depending on where the toy fall, they can see if they disconnect too soon. It's sweet to see a freshfaced 11 year old girl on hitting-mechanics.org tuck her plushy CareBear on her shoulder, and then rip into wiffle ball on a tee.

There is a great deal of common ground...
Took a look at your TV show clip and what you are doing in California with kids. Seems like a great place...I assume you're talking about Jim's FirstPick academy in Novato, CA? Yeah, I was sold on the place when I saw that he got the fifty-something woman newscaster in high heels nearly break the camera with a line drive. I took my son up there (we're only about thirty-five minutes away), and it's like Legoland for baseball players, with all sorts of Jim's invented gadgets to isolate various parts of the swing or pitching motion. Lotsa eye candy to keep kids engaged. And with Jim's eye, all that stuff helps him hone right in on what a kid needs to work on.

Jake Patterson

01-08-2006, 06:51 PM

I feel bad for those kids..they could be having so much more fun.

It's hard to say how much fun they are, or are not having....

Through their own admission however, (Using the numbers on their Website) Al and Al train less than 1% (.7% by my research) of the total amount of Little League coaches coaching in Little League. And Little League International (LLI) does not seem too interested in changing that.

Questions that should be asked by LLI (Or for that matter anyone who coaches baseball) are:

1. Do we have appropriate Train the Trainer programs in place to effectively train LL coaches?
2. Are the training methods used to train LL coaches technically sound and age appropriate?
3. Are we training players safely from both a physical hazard and biological standpoint?
4. Do we have a systematic way to evaluate the coaches' ability to train players? Does that system provide feedback in a positive and helpful manner?
5. Do we have an effective training methods that can ultimately reach the maximum amount of coaches and players?

For those players, or parents of players who can afford clinics, trainers and lessons this may not be too big of a deal. But a survey conducted in our league last year showed that more than 90% of the players in the league do not participate in this (number one reason being expense) manner of training, relying only on LL coaches and parents, understanding that most are not the caliber of player that warrents private lessons. Discussion with other leagues indicate this is the norm.

The reason I have been so interested in the pitching and hitting threads is because of the variety of methods I have seen out there when teaching young players- This, by the way, is not a jab at anyone's method - But... there has to be a way to establish a "Best in Class" method using scientific, biologic and kinesiological methods - Again no jab here-

I will be attending the World Baseball Convention in CT this week. Of the 70 sessions they are conducting over the three days, 7 are of hitting and all will have a different twist, opinion, or angle. The instructors include some of the game's best - Dwight Evans, Bobby Valentine, Mike Barnett, Ron Jackson, Roger Lafrancois, Bill Springman, Butch Hobson and Don Slaught, just to name a few. See: http://www.baseballcoachesclinic.com/presenters.php

If they differ?..... how can we not? Now, there are basics we all agree with and train. But we would be hard pressed to get two Little Leagues that train the same basics the same way.

From a high school coaching perspective this is a problem for me as the LL (Along with the the middle school, AAU, etc) is my feeder program.

So again, revisiting the initial question, or at least the intent of the original question, how do we best train 9-12 year olds effectively using "Best in Class" methods? (Not a specific question for any one person- just throwing it out there so you better understand from what angle I am asking)

hiddengem

01-08-2006, 07:34 PM

I assume you're talking about Jim's FirstPick academy in Novato, CA? Yeah, I was sold on the place when I saw that he got the fifty-something woman newscaster in high heels nearly break the camera with a line drive. I took my son up there (we're only about thirty-five minutes away), and it's like Legoland for baseball players, with all sorts of Jim's invented gadgets to isolate various parts of the swing or pitching motion. Lotsa eye candy to keep kids engaged. And with Jim's eye, all that stuff helps him hone right in on what a kid needs to work on.

What is his website address?

jbooth

01-08-2006, 10:13 PM

What is his website address?

firstpickclub.com

First Pick Baseball Training Club (http://firstpickclub.com)

The TV show is 5 minutes long and is a large download so be aware before you click. The ads are 30 second commercials

hiddengem

01-08-2006, 10:34 PM

firstpickclub.com

First Pick Baseball Training Club (http://firstpickclub.com)

The TV show is 5 minutes long and is a large download so be aware before you click. The ads are 30 second commercials

yea I just clicked on it and it played with out me having to download it. Very nice facility you have going. Best of luck.

Here is a couple random shots of our place out in Texas
http://thehitting-zone.com/photos.php?RollID=images%2Fphoto_galleries%2Ffacil ities&FrameID=PA240008

http://thehitting-zone.com/photos.php?RollID=images%2Fphoto_galleries%2Ffacil ities&FrameID=P1010023

Jake Patterson

01-09-2006, 07:22 AM

Here is a couple random shots of our place out in Texas

Another great looking faciliity HG. I like the way you have set up your cages.

The facility we use is www.americasgame.com -owned by Andy and Pete Walker. Andy is one of the clinicians we use at our annual clinics. He is also puts together the World's Baseball Convention held at the Mohegan Sun Arena.

tadlock11

01-09-2006, 12:52 PM

Glad the hands back works for you. I would limit its use to getting a kid from starting his swing before his front heel plants. And, stomping on the string to get the ball released would seem to promote lunging. I suppose it's a bit better than just using a tee all the time. Beyond that, there is a risk that it promotes too much disconnection between the movement of the front knee, hips and shoulders. The force needs to flow up the body. I guess if the kid is used to the device, he can keep it flowing. Thanks for your observations. I've seen 'em but wondered if they really helped.
UM- It actually promotes just the opposite, as the name suggests. There is a good delay between stepping on the string and the ball being released. When my son first started using it, he was used to the kids toys that use similar mechanical releases and was lunging at the ball. This contraption (HBH) forces the hitter to keep their hands/weight back, separating the stride from the load and hip rotation. Not sure how to add it here, but if interested I have a small mpeg of his first day using the thing.

tadlock11

01-09-2006, 01:25 PM

IF this worked, here is the first day my son used the thing: http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=60479&currentDate=20060109&currentTime=132222
and this is after one week:
http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=60479&currentDate=20060109&currentTime=132222
This were done about a year ago, feel free to give some constructive crisism on the second one.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 05:26 AM

it didnt work.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 06:25 AM

UM-...There is a good delay between stepping on the string and the ball being released...

And this is the real reason why the contraption is useless. Pay attention to the time lapse between a hitter placing his foot down and the launch of his swing. It is very very very small. Yet, the contraption makes you put the foot down and wait for the ball. This is so far from the reality of a real swing.

And the significance of this is huge. A real hitter rotates into footplant when he swings. There is NO delay in a real swing. There is no delay in the hitters load/unload cycle. Yet this contraption teaches a delay.

This ranks second as the worst hitting tool I've seen. #1 is the Griffey Instructo Swing.

Here is a demonstration of why the HBH is worthless.....

http://www.hitting-mechanics.org/HMPFTP/sbcompare3lr.gif

These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 06:27 AM

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 07:31 AM

These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.

We need to be careful here. You are comparing what appears to be a college player or pro to a ten year old kid. As UM noted in an earlier note each of these devises have their limitations and purposes and are geard for a very specific use. I believe the Hands Back is made to teach seperation. Timing may be the next step.

Tadlock, when compared against other ten year olds, he does pretty well. There are certainly issues with his swings as there are with every ten year old I've ever seen. Teaching a good swing is a process not an event. Keep your chin up!

Ohfor - Providing both clips synced is a very valuable tool. You know what you have compared against what should be.
I like it!

tadlock11

01-10-2006, 08:46 AM

I can see where too much of a delay would be bad. The spring tension is adjustable for quicker releases. Also in the comp pictures, would the player on the right have the same smooth swing if it were a changeup? Not that that particular pitch isn't, but for the most part on what I've observed, hitters are way out in front.
After my son used this for a few weeks, his hitting improved by leaps and bounds. We used this at practice with a tournament team as a station. The teams hitting improved (all but one or two players hit over .500) I haven't tried many hitting devices but this one worked for us.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 08:58 AM

We need to be careful here. You are comparing what appears to be a college player or pro to a ten year old kid.

The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid. He can not rotate into footplant. He can not properly load/unload his hips.

I believe the Hands Back is made to teach seperation. Timing may be the next step.

The hands back hitter is designed to promote just what it says. But, it really compromises ones ability to launch his swing properly.

Timing is not what you see as you look at the difference between the two hitters. Timing is making your swing match the arrival of the pitch.

What you see in the clip is an illustration of a large compromise of swing quickness. You see a compromise in the load/unload of the hips. You see a compromise in intensity. You see a compromise in the ability to launch properly.

This is a HUGE issue and should not be overlooked.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 09:02 AM

...
After my son used this for a few weeks, his hitting improved by leaps and bounds...

So..........are you in this for the short term? Are you interested in teaching a kid something that will work as long as he's facing mediocre pitching? Are you interested in teaching something that may help him now but will compromise his ability to play at a high level?

If so........keep at it.

High level swings will not come out of the HBH.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 09:07 AM

And this is the real reason why the contraption is useless. Pay attention to the time lapse between a hitter placing his foot down and the launch of his swing. It is very very very small. Yet, the contraption makes you put the foot down and wait for the ball. This is so far from the reality of a real swing.

And the significance of this is huge. A real hitter rotates into footplant when he swings. There is NO delay in a real swing. There is no delay in the hitters load/unload cycle. Yet this contraption teaches a delay.

This ranks second as the worst hitting tool I've seen. #1 is the Griffey Instructo Swing.

Here is a demonstration of why the HBH is worthless.....

http://www.hitting-mechanics.org/HMPFTP/sbcompare3lr.gif

These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.

How would you(Nyman) teach somebody to keep their weight back/hands back. This hitter you have shown appears to be hitting a fastball in where keeping your hands back doesn't apply.

I think what this little "tool" is teaching this kid to do is to "reach" with his front foot while keeping his weight centered(Bonds) and his head centered rather than lunging his whole body forward when he steps.

Now, do I like the delay in time between step and swing? Not necessarily, but I do know a kid in the big leagues that has got over 200 hits for the past 3 seasons that does it quite often..Michael Young

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 09:20 AM

...This hitter you have shown appears to be hitting a fastball in where keeping your hands back doesn't apply.

Totally disagree. His hands are back when he STARTS THE SWING.....which is the issue. What he does to get to this pitch is a result of him having his hands back which allows the opportunity to get to this pitch.

I do know a kid in the big leagues that has got over 200 hits for the past 3 seasons that does it quite often..Michael Young

But this is being sold to kids who have no clue about the difference between "hands back" and "launching properly" I'm quite sure, if you what you say is correct about Michael Young, that he knows the difference.

99.9% of all dads, youth coaches, and amateur players do not.

And while "hands back" is good, it is EASILY taught by more sound methods that don't compromise the launch. So easily taught it's almost a no teach.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 09:20 AM

i guess the question is...is the step a seperate movement from the swing?

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 09:26 AM

i guess the question is...is the step a seperate movement from the swing?

I don't belive it should although many do it.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 09:28 AM

Totally disagree. His hands are back when he STARTS THE SWING.....which is the issue. What he does to get to this pitch is a result of him having his hands back which allows the opportunity to get to this pitch.

But this is being sold to kids who have no clue about the difference between "hands back" and "launching properly" I'm quite sure, if you what you say is correct about Michael Young, that he knows the difference.

99.9% of all dads, youth coaches, and amateur players do not.

And while "hands back" is good, it is EASILY taught by more sound methods that don't compromise the launch. So easily taught it's almost a no teach.

So, what would this kid do if he started his swing thinking it was a fastball, and then realized it was a change up? Just take that beautiful swing that you guys talk about and miss it by 3 feet?

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 09:33 AM

to me it would seem detrimental to a smooth swing to step and wait for that ball to move up.:crazy

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 09:35 AM

to me it would seem detrimental to a smooth swing to step and wait for that ball to move up.:crazy

Many guys do it with 2 strikes. They do it so that there foot is down, they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 10:18 AM

The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid. He can not rotate into footplant. He can not properly load/unload his hips.

Damn we agree on another issue.:crazy

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 10:20 AM

Many guys do it with 2 strikes. They do it so that there foot is down, they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.

sounds like a 90 footer at best
it disrupts the flow.

BUT THEN AGAIN.no striders do it all the time,but then again the toe turn might be their trigger?

Ursa Major

01-10-2006, 10:43 AM

Ohfor, first for taking the time to match the two swings. It's a great help in illustrating your point, although I think much is lost when you draw too many conclusions from it. And, like everything from a gun to a car to the fence drill (remember THAT thread on hitting-mechanics.org?), it can be misused and overused by the ignorant. It's good to know that we're all the "one in a thousand" here who OhFor believes will know how to use it.

What is missed here is that for many hitters, there are two components to the "foot plant", although not for the big hitter on the right. For them, you first land on the inside of the big toe of the plant foot, keeping that heel up. Then, when the pitch is timed, they slam that heel down as they rotate. So, conceivably, these hitters could launch the ball by tapping the string with their toe, then doing the heel down/rotate when the ball reaches the right height. It seems that it would take some practice to hit the string with that small (big toe) surface area of your foot, but I guess it's doable.

And, as seems to be universally agreed by everyone but OhFor, there are going to be times you do a full foot plant but have to delay your swing because you've been fooled by the speed. We sometimes see too much in clips of perfect swings and forget that most of our swings require adjustments to the speed and location of pitches. I'd like to see the other ten or so swings that lefty batter in OhFor's clip took in that game.

As noted above, I have problems with the device that others have articulated quite well. I don't like the eye path that it forces the batter to take; it's completely antithetical to following a real pitch.

I don't dispute that OhFor is right about the ultimate dangers that steady use of the device might create, but if it gives a cue that solves a basic problem with younger kids and if coaches supplement it with other instruction and stop its use at the appropriate time, it's not going to ruin a kid's swing. And most importantly here, this kid seems to have more confidence in his swing (and much better bat angle, which probably is more of the cause of the good swing than the trainer is). In 9-10 year old ball, that swing will get a lot of balls to the outfield, which is all you want.

Where's there's an implicit message in OhFor's post that bears discussion is this: coaches may sometimes confuse a quick fix and let kids use bad technique because the kids get a short term lurch in batting average. The converse of that is coaches (or parents) who are reluctant to move their kids up to the next level of technique because it causes a short term decrease in results as the kid adjusts.

So, my advice would be to largely keep that puppy away from kids who either (a) don't use a two-step foot plant as described above, or (b) already are able to keep their hands back and don't need the help. But, if the kids treat it as a magic pill that gets their mojo working, well, maybe let 'em use it a little under close supervision. :dance

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 10:44 AM

So, what would this kid do if he started his swing thinking it was a fastball, and then realized it was a change up? Just take that beautiful swing that you guys talk about and miss it by 3 feet?

First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters.

Secondly, what you're really missing is how quick the swing is from launch to contact. Roughly .2 of a second. And the point is, when your swing is quick enough you can wait long enough. If it isn't quick enough, you have to start early and it's those people who won't be playing very long. Quicker swing means longer wait which means better read which means better results.

The quickness you see out of this live hitter gives him the opportunity to make last second adjustments with his hands to get to a pitch. Actually with his arms. His arms will hold the hands in or let them out a little as needed. But the first adjustor used is the posture. Very good hitters make the majority of their adjustments with posture......not their arms or hands.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 10:47 AM

...they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.

Very poor hitting technique. There is no "loaded" so they can wait for the ball. There is only loading and unloading. To load, stop and wait is exactly what the HBH forces you to do. And it will kill your ability to hit.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 10:48 AM

The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid.

This is exactly right. Age is no issue in this discussion.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 10:50 AM

...no striders do it all the time,but then again the toe turn might be their trigger?

No, no striders don't do it all the time. In fact, their loading is somewhat easier to see and understand because it isn't "hidden" by the stride. In other words, most people misinterpret the stride. Reality is there is no such thing as a stride. There is a movement of the center while loading.......which many call a stride. But there is no stride.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 11:02 AM

What is missed here is that for many hitters, there are two components to the "foot plant", although not for the big hitter on the right. For them, you first land on the inside of the big toe of the plant foot, keeping that heel up. Then, when the pitch is timed, they slam that heel down as they rotate. So, conceivably, these hitters could launch the ball by tapping the string with their toe, then doing the heel down/rotate when the ball reaches the right height. It seems that it would take some practice to hit the string with that small (big toe) surface area of your foot, but I guess it's doable.

The issue is not whether the toe touches first and then the heel is pushed down by rotation. The issue is the time between the two. If you look at 100 swings from the same guy, a very high percentage of them you won't be able to tell a difference in the time between touch and drop. Probably as high as 90% in the very best hitters. Everyone is fooled now and then, and they make the best adjustments they can............but for the life of me I see no reason to practice a poor swing. And that is exactly what a "delay between touch and drop swing" is. It's what you do when fooled. But you don't want to be fooled. The answer to being fooled is to learn how to not be fooled. Not..."this is how I handle it if I'm fooled." Which by result will be often.

And, as seems to be universally agreed by everyone but OhFor,

I've already acknowledged that you do this when fooled. My question is why practice a poor swing? Why make your poor swing YOUR swing. Which is what you do by using the HBH.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 11:22 AM

And that is exactly what a "delay between touch and drop swing" is. It's what you do when fooled. But you don't want to be fooled. The answer to being fooled is to learn how to not be fooled. Not..."this is how I handle it if I'm fooled." Which by result will be often.

EXACTLY,the hands back hitter devolops a swing that looks like you've been fooled.
It just cant be good to wait that long for that ball to pop up.

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 11:35 AM

This is exactly right. Age is no issue in this discussion.

How we teach 9-10 year olds versus older athletes is. Kenesiologist, bio mechanics experts, and medical professionals all agree that the pre-pubescent, post-pubescent and adult bodies all work differently, never mind the muscle memory that the older players have developed over thousands and thousands of swings.

I don't think anyone here believes the hesitation in the 10 year old's swing is a good thing, but if the devise is used as a step toward an ultimate goal then why not use it?

Why do we use tees, hitting sticks, soft-toss, etc? Strickly to teach.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 12:20 PM

Very poor hitting technique. There is no "loaded" so they can wait for the ball. There is only loading and unloading. To load, stop and wait is exactly what the HBH forces you to do. And it will kill your ability to hit.

You sound like you've got this all figured out. How high of a level did you play and have success?

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 12:28 PM

First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters.

Have YOU ever stood in the box facing a right handed pitcher(assuming you are a right handed hitter) that can bring it 95mp with boaring action on your hands, along with a good slider at 85mph or change with the same arm action at 85mph?

You make it seem like its just "ho hum" that you just sit there and wait to see the ball and don't make a swing movement until you've seen the ball, and know what it is. I personally don't think you have a clear understanding of what it takes to actually "hit" at a high-level. I think you have a pretty good understanding of what a nice pretty swing looks like when everything is on perfect timing. I think you've been studying these pretty beautiful swings too much, you need to look at some swings where good hitters are fooled and still have success. What happens then?

hit-it-hard

01-10-2006, 12:52 PM

You sound like you've got this all figured out. How high of a level did you play and have success?

HG, in general I value what you say here... but every time you disagree or don't have an answer for something, this is your fallback question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 01:01 PM

HG, in general I value what you say here... but every time you disagree or don't have an answer for something, this is your fallback question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

I appreiciate you valuing what I say, but maybe you could explain to me how I get through to somebody that has never experienced what I'm talking about? Nyman knows,ohfor knows and lots of others know what happens when a hitter takes a good swing. Ok fine, but to be able to be succesful at a high level (not take a high-level swing) takes alot more being able to take a pretty swing. And I don't think somebody can have an understanding of that unless they've had the opportunity to hit on a consistent basis at a high level. Thats all. Understand?

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 01:04 PM

...

Why do we use tees, hitting sticks, soft-toss, etc? Strickly to teach.

None of them require a delay in the swing.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 01:08 PM

Have YOU ever stood in the box facing a right handed pitcher(assuming you are a right handed hitter) that can bring it 95mp with boaring action on your hands, along with a good slider at 85mph or change with the same arm action at 85mph?

I have and I still do.

You make it seem like its just "ho hum" that you just sit there and wait to see the ball and don't make a swing movement until you've seen the ball,

Nice try. Is it your intent to cloud the discussion by using "don't make a swing movement" until you've seen the ball, instead of "launch your swing".

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 03:01 PM

You make it seem like its just "ho hum" that you just sit there and wait to see the ball and don't make a swing movement until you've seen the ball, and know what it is.

HG I think you and ohfor on on the same page here.You cant wait that long to make a decision.The hands back hitter makes you wait.The toe touch and plant rotate happen so fast that the HBH would either have you flat footed or landing on your toe waiting and waiting.:gt

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 03:56 PM

None of them require a delay in the swing.

You've missed the point....

Ursa Major

01-10-2006, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ohfor
None of them require a delay in the swing.
You've missed the point....Exactly. All drills and devices to some extent create an artificial circumstance that differs from game conditions so as to allow elimination of one or more game variables in order to isolate on an area that needs work. So, you can say that a tee is no good because it doesn't simulate the adjustment required of a batter to deal with pitch movement.

Also, drills will often exaggerate a movement that an athlete must make to overcome a flaw in technique. For example, many young pitchers rush their motions right through the posting/lifting of the glove side leg. So, my son's pitching coach has them drill so that they stop and hold the leg up until he calls for them to continue their motion. So, for hitters who start their swing before their foot plants, the exaggerated wait may have some initial benefit.

The issue is not whether the toe touches first and then the heel is pushed down by rotation. The issue is the time between the two. If you look at 100 swings from the same guy, a very high percentage of them you won't be able to tell a difference in the time between touch and drop. Probably as high as 90% in the very best hitters. Everyone is fooled now and then, and they make the best adjustments they can............but for the life of me I see no reason to practice a poor swing.We're not talking about using the HBH with the very best hitters. The question is whether or not it will lend some help to young, weaker hitters with a specific flaw. And, even if we're talking about the best hitters, well, they wouldn't need HBH for pitches they've timed well. But it might come in handy on those pitches that they haven't timed well. You don't always practice for the best of times, but sometimes for disasters as well. And it's not practicing "a poor swing"; just a delayed one where you try to make the rest of the mechanics approach your "good swing".

But since you're raising the issue of high level hitting, I think it permits HiddenGems to raise the issue of OhFor's experience in hitting. (True, that's not the only test; if OhFor had coached high level players and demonstrably made a difference in their outcomes, then we'd give him credit for that too.) This all started with OhFor saying, "First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters." This suggests his belief that a hitter would rarely initiate his swing before he had the pitch completely timed (at least that's what I think the phrase "before he realizes the pitch" means). HG has sat in pro and major league dugouts for several years, faced the best pitchers in the world, and been trained by professional coaches, and thus is in a pretty good position to know (a) what kind of hitting training will ultimately get you to that level, and (b) what kind of training is necessary to successfully adapt to something that pitchers are paid tens of millions of dollars a year to try to do, which is to mess with hitters' timing on every pitch.

So, someone who suggests that a hitter at that level rarely initiates his swing earlier than is optimal better be in a pretty good position to see and confront that problem. HG's not arguing conceptual theory with physicists here; he's talking about what pro hitters face on a daily basis. If OhFor has a source for his belief, I'd like to hear it, as well as the basis for his statement that he has and does face pitchers who "can bring it 95 mph with boring action on your hands, along with a good slider at 85mph or change with the same arm action at 85mph". Must be one helluva league he plays in.

tadlock11

01-10-2006, 07:09 PM

Exactly. All drills and devices to some extent create an artificial circumstance that differs from game conditions so as to allow elimination of one or more game variables in order to isolate on an area that needs work. So, you can say that a tee is no good because it doesn't simulate the adjustment required of a batter to deal with pitch movement.

Also, drills will often exaggerate a movement that an athlete must make to overcome a flaw in technique. For example, many young pitchers rush their motions right through the posting/lifting of the glove side leg. So, my son's pitching coach has them drill so that they stop and hold the leg up until he calls for them to continue their motion. So, for hitters who start their swing before their foot plants, the exaggerated wait may have some initial benefit.

Thank You Ursa Major, that is exactly what I was thinking as I've been reading through these posts. We use the HBH as a station, not as the sole method of batting practice.
I would love to see a thread on drills: pros and cons of each one, brought up.
Especially to hear what works and what doesn't. Why certain ones work better and what they cure. Of course I want this info to use at 10-12 yr old practices.

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 07:57 PM

I would love to see a thread on drills: pros and cons of each one, brought up.
Especially to hear what works and what doesn't. Why certain ones work better and what they cure. Of course I want this info to use at 10-12 yr old practices.

Tadlock - this would be a great idea, but we would have to all figure out how to post clips of what we're talking about. The venacular, terminology and names we use may present problems, but I like the idea!

Ursa Major Also, drills will often exaggerate a movement that an athlete must make to overcome a flaw in technique.

Ursa, It is sometimes difficult to make others understand the difference between doing and teaching, especially those that haven't coached. "The measure of a good coach is not how well he can play the game, it's how well he can teach it."

This thread has reminded me of the old joke about the young bull and the old bull walking over a rise and seeing a herd of cows. The young bull says to the old bull, "Let's run down there and have our way with one of them cows." The old bull replies. "Let's walk down and have our way with them all."

Those of us who are old bulls are not trying to prove our genius in the game of baseball or prove who knows more than who. I'm just trying to figure out a better way to teach what we know to the young bulls. Thanks for your comments!

HG - your experience is well appreciated. Again knowing how it should be done is very helpful when trying to close the training gap with young players.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 08:35 PM

I have and I still do.

I'm not concerned with proving you wrong, but it would help us all if we new what the highest level you have played at is.

Nice try. Is it your intent to cloud the discussion by using "don't make a swing movement" until you've seen the ball, instead of "launch your swing".

Actually I'm making that exact point. Here let me try and explain it a different way.

If you think that you are so good that you can sit in the box facing a pitcher that can spot 95 on your hands and then spot a changeup on the outer part of the plate at 85 with the same arm action and think for one second that you can cover both pitches, you are crazy or Barry Bonds masked as "ohfor".

There is a very small chance that you could anticipate him throwing a changeup and still be able to cover 95 on your hands. The same goes for looking for a fastball in and being able to be in a optimal hitting position on a change away.

Why do you think we rely so heavily on advanced scouts? We are looking for tendancies, and patterns pitchers fall into. Its impossible to cover all pitches and all locations, if you try to you'll hit for crap. Thus is the reason many hitters get their foot down early and into a "launch" position with 2 strikes so that all they have to do is react to the ball and unload. The downfall is that you lose alot of power because you are basically trying to put the ball in play, the positive is that you might sneak in a "Duck Fart" for your 3rd hit in 10 Ab's by getting jammed out of your mind with a heater in, trying to protect for the slider away and have it fall into shallow right field.

Ursa Major

01-10-2006, 10:37 PM

I would love to see a thread on drills: pros and cons of each one, brought up. Especially to hear what works and what doesn't. Why certain ones work better and what they cure. Of course I want this info to use at 10-12 yr old practices.Are you talking about hitting drills or drills in general? The latter is too general a topic to discuss in a thread; I'd think you'd want to ask folks for books or other resources from which a coach can pick and choose. There are thousands. Just keep the kids busy and don't have eleven kids watch one kid take batting practice.

If you're talking about hitting drills, it depends on which hitting system you're using. The expert advocating the system will (or should) have a series of drills built to train the kids using it; the training, not the raw technique is the most important part. And, of course, you've got to play it by ear depending on what is working with the kids.

* * *
Jake, thanks for the joke about the two bulls and the cows.... and your delightfully archaic eupemism for, you know. I hadn't heard it in some time.

My amusement increased in reading HG's most recent response to OhFor. Not to take sides on it, but just the colorful heat that flowed out. I wished we were all sitting around with beers and pool cues in hand to hear him say it in person. Somehow it brought back to mind the scene in the classic movie Airplane, where Kareem Abdul Jabbar, who's playing the co-pilot and insisting all along that he's not "that basketball player," is confronted by a kid passenger who says his dad says that he, Jabbar, doesn't hustle enough. Jabbar's character's pleasant demeanor suddenly changes, and he grabs the kid and growls:

"The hell I don't. LISTEN KID. I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes."

As I say, somehow HG's diatribe reminded me of that... in a good way.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 11:01 PM

My amusement increased in reading HG's most recent response to OhFor. Not to take sides on it, but just the colorful heat that flowed out. I wished we were all sitting around with beers and pool cues in hand to hear him say it in person.

As I say, somehow HG's diatribe reminded me of that... in a good way.

Thanks John...I'm a terrible writer but I'm glad you can understand the passion and respect I have for "the game".

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 08:02 AM

Why do you think we rely so heavily on advanced scouts? We are looking for tendancies, and patterns pitchers fall into. Its impossible to cover all pitches and all locations, if you try to you'll hit for crap...

You're making my point. With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING.

IF we are swinging, you won't launch until you've made your decision. Still could be wrong. Sometimes we are. But, nevertheless, you don't swing before you know where you're swinging.

And, you failed to cover the difference between "starting your swing movements" and "launching your swing." Makes you look better I guess.

The fact remains, I do get the point about the devices that coaches use to help players. I do get the fact that we try to isolate things that need improvement. That we may overemphasize certain aspects of a swing to "get it" better.

That in no way supports the damage the HBH does to young hitters. The first thing young hitters need is a better mental picture of just how quick the swing needs to be. In fact, this fact alone can straighten out many flaws. Many flaws exist because there is time for them to exist. Hitters swings are so slow (in comparison to what they need to be) that they fill this time with inefficient movements. And then these inefficient movements are in the way of a quick swing. They go to launch and they can't. If and when they get the understanding of how quick the swing needs to be, you'll find much of the inefficiencies disappear. Of course, not all, but a good deal of it.

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good). Hopefully Iron Mikes. Tell them to swing as quickly as they can as soon as they see the ball. Tell them the goal is not to hit the ball but to complete their swing as quickly as they can.....but only after they see the ball. If you're working with young hitters, 95% of them will see the ball, swing quickly, and then a few fractions of a second later the ball will come into the zone. THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE TIDBIT OF INFORMATION FOR YOUNG HITTERS TO HAVE. They are now seeing, probably for the first time, that they ARE quick enough to hit 85+ or 90 mph. It was demonstrated for them by ASKING THEM NOT TO HIT THE BALL. Why? Because their efforts to hit the ball precludes them from being quick. Their "mental image" of what to do is so far from accurate that they have no chance of ever doing it right. Now they have an image of what has to happen. And, now they know the quickness exists in them. Now, they realize they don't have to cheat by starting early. After some repetition they will learn the length of time it takes them to execute their quick swing. Which is much shorter than they imagined. Now, once they have that memorized (will take much longer than one session to memorize it for good) they need to swing with that quickness every pitch REGARDLESS IF THEY HIT THE BALL. Now, have them move forward toward the machine until their execution is in sync with the machine and watch them launch rope after rope after rope......against very fast pitching.

This is a first step only. This doesn't make them great hitters immediately. BUT, if you want to see a kid start to believe, have him do this. You talk about a great expression on a kids face when he just roped 85 or 90mph pitch after pitch after pitch. I guarantee you'll have a believer on your hands.

The long and the short of it is, their "timing process" needed to be rewired. They have been trying to time a very fast pitch, with minimal reaction time, with their slow, slop and slack filled swing. That is next to impossible to do. And, that is what the HBH teachers them. Be slow. Have slop in the swing. Now, try to time 90 mph.

Once the kids have done this a few times, now they have to learn to maintain that quick swing WHILE learning to time it to the pitch. Not an easy thing to do. But, only now do they have half a chance at being a good hitter. Not until they understand just how quick they need to be can they learn to time pitches.

You'll have to get on them next time they go to the cage because they still don't "have it" yet. They'll have to go through the process again. Once they "feel" the quick swing, they will learn to wait and launch it at the right time. They have no prayer of ever being a hitter if they are not "waiting" for a 90 mph fastball. The only way they can learn to "wait" for a 90mph fastball is to be quick enough to do so........And, the HBH is anti-quickness.

The best thing a coach can do for a hitter is get him more time to make better decisions.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 09:18 AM

You're making my point. With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING.
Easier said than done. But I understand your point.

And, you failed to cover the difference between "starting your swing movements" and "launching your swing." Makes you look better I guess.
Well, The start of my swing entails the loading of the scap, some weight shift, maybe a knee cock ect. When I get those things done and set, if I decide to swing at the pitch I launch. I try and make these movements slow and under control so that I slow things down and make that 90 look 80. If I have shart fast movements that 90 can look 100 at times. Agree?

They have no prayer of ever being a hitter if they are not "waiting" for a 90 mph fastball. The only way they can learn to "wait" for a 90mph fastball is to be quick enough to do so

I agree

Jake Patterson

01-11-2006, 09:24 AM

The fact remains, I do get the point about the devices that coaches use to help players. I do get the fact that we try to isolate things that need improvement. That we may overemphasize certain aspects of a swing to "get it" better.

Now we have common ground

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good).

What age group are you talking about? To do this with young kids would be irresponsible.

The best thing a coach can do for a hitter is get him more time to make better decisions.
Think of the physics... What are you trying to gain? At 90MPH (the speed you use above) the most you can gain is .1 or .2 seconds over the life of the pitch. The brain is incapable of making concious decisions at that speed.

Ohfor- just curious... why won't you answer the question about your highest level of play or coaching? Knowing what level the other guys are at helps in understanding the analysis and perspective they provide.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 09:27 AM

Well, The start of my swing entails the loading of the scap, some weight shift, maybe a knee cock ect. When I get those things done and set, if I decide to swing at the pitch I launch...

You have preswing movements (very necessary movements) and then a launch. Yes they do work together. But, there is a definate difference between them. And when to launch is what I'm talking.

You do your preswing movement every pitch. Even the pitches you take. What is the difference? One you launched. One you didn't.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 09:29 AM

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good). Hopefully Iron Mikes. Tell them to swing as quickly as they can as soon as they see the ball. Tell them the goal is not to hit the ball but to complete their swing as quickly as they can.....but only after they see the ball. If you're working with young hitters, 95% of them will see the ball, swing quickly, and then a few fractions of a second later the ball will come into the zone. THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE TIDBIT OF INFORMATION FOR YOUNG HITTERS TO HAVE. They are now seeing, probably for the first time, that they ARE quick enough to hit 85+ or 90 mph. It was demonstrated for them by ASKING THEM NOT TO HIT THE BALL. Why? Because their efforts to hit the ball precludes them from being quick. Their "mental image" of what to do is so far from accurate that they have no chance of ever doing it right. Now they have an image of what has to happen. And, now they know the quickness exists in them. Now, they realize they don't have to cheat by starting early. After some repetition they will learn the length of time it takes them to execute their quick swing. Which is much shorter than they imagined. Now, once they have that memorized (will take much longer than one session to memorize it for good) they need to swing with that quickness every pitch REGARDLESS IF THEY HIT THE BALL. Now, have them move forward toward the machine until their execution is in sync with the machine and watch them launch rope after rope after rope......against very fast pitching

I hope you are talking about doing this with highschool kids, correct?

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 09:30 AM

You have preswing movements (very necessary movements) and then a launch. Yes they do work together. But, there is a definate difference between them. And when to launch is what I'm talking.

You do your preswing movement every pitch. Even the pitches you take. What is the difference? One you launched. One you didn't.

Right..I think I explained that in post #100

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 09:41 AM

..What age group are you talking about? To do this with young kids would be irresponsible.

You ask the question but you don't define the age you work with either. That's the safe way, I guess.

The drill I explained will work for every age group. The point is to "challenge" their quickness". Challenge their underlying image of how quick a swing is. I'll guarantee you that even your best players don't understand if they are still high school or below.

Now, if you're dealing with 9-10 years olds, you do the same thing but you don't crank it up to 90. Maybe 75 or 80. I don't know what speed challenges 9-10 year olds. Don't work with them. If they are 12-14 years old I bet a few can do the drill as defined. Maybe 80-85 is a better setting.

In any case, find what forces them to quickly "pounce like a tiger" laying silently waiting for his prey.

Think of the physics... What are you trying to gain? At 90MPH (the speed you use above) the most you can gain is .1 or .2 seconds over the life of the pitch. The brain is incapable of making concious decisions at that speed.

This is pure hogwash and shows your complete lack of understanding of what goes on in high level swings. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate. The entire process...recognizing the pitch, deciding if to swing, where to swing and then swinging takes roughly .4 seconds in big league hitters. If you give someone .2 you're giving him 50% more time. Please speak about which you know.

why won't you answer the question about your highest level of play or coaching? Knowing what level the other guys are at helps in understanding the analysis and perspective they provide.

This argument shows more about you than me. I will challenge you to think for yourself and compare what is being said to what hitters do. Use video. Compare what anyone tells you, not just me, to what great players actually do. That and that alone should be your benchmark for who is speaking the truth and who isn't. Your "need" for a resume, to verify ones hitting beliefs is a crutch. The biggest proof is the dismal record of mlb organizations developing hitters. Yet, if I said I was the hitting coach for one of those teams you'd believe everything I say. Trust me, the level of instruction in mlb and their minor leagues is pathetic. All they do is provide a forum for hitters to develop i.e. they provide games and at bats. From there it is completely trial and error. I can link you to comments of a professional coach who spell it out very clearly. He went through the minor leagues and played some at the mlb level. Very interesting article.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 09:57 AM

This is pure hogwash and shows your complete lack of understanding of what goes on in high level swings. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate. The entire process...recognizing the pitch, deciding if to swing, where to swing and then swinging takes roughly .4 seconds in big league hitters. If you give someone .2 you're giving him 50% more time. Please speak about which you know.

This comment alone tells me all I need to know when referring to your knowledge of what it takes to be successfull in mlb or pro ball for that matter.
I mean, are you really serious with this statement? "If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols."? and this one, "If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate"

Do you really think all it takes is the ability to gain .1 or .2 seconds and "Poof" all of a sudden you can hit? Come on..you know better than that.

This argument shows more about you than me. I will challenge you to think for yourself and compare what is being said to what hitters do. Use video. Compare what anyone tells you, not just me, to what great players actually do. That and that alone should be your benchmark for who is speaking the truth and who isn't. Your "need" for a resume, to verify ones hitting beliefs is a crutch. The biggest proof is the dismal record of mlb organizations developing hitters. Yet, if I said I was the hitting coach for one of those teams you'd believe everything I say. Trust me, the level of instruction in mlb and their minor leagues is pathetic. All they do is provide a forum for hitters to develop i.e. they provide games and at bats. From there it is completely trial and error. I can link you to comments of a professional coach who spell it out very clearly. He went through the minor leagues and played some at the mlb level. Very interesting article.

Ok, so you don't want to tell us who you play for, what level. ect. Could you post a clip of your swing, so we see this stuff you are talking about in action?

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 10:18 AM

Sorry you don't understand the advantage of an additional .2 I bet if you had the additional .2 it would've made a hell of a difference in your swing also.

Not saying getting .2 is easy. But .2 would change every 90 mph fastball into a 85 mph fastball. It would give you the needed time to recognize the different pitch speeds and locations.

Sure, Alberts strength and other intangibles are important. But nothing, and I mean nothing is more important than the quickness at which you can complete your swing. The quicker you are from launch to completion, the more read time you have. The more read time you have the better decision you make.

It's like hitting off "a level down" pitcher.

I can't believe you challenge it. Just a few posts ago you agree with the quickness issue. What does the quickness improvement give you?

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 10:37 AM

.

I can't believe you challenge it. Just a few posts ago you agree with the quickness issue. What does the quickness improvement give you?

I don't challege the quickness issue, I think its very important. You can wait a tick longer, buts that not all it takes to hit for a high average. I think you drank too much Nyman cool-aid with the comments you are throwing around. All Mike Matheny needs .1-.2 seconds and he's Albert Pujols, give it a rest.

Jake Patterson

01-11-2006, 10:55 AM

You ask the question but you don't define the age you work with either. That's the safe way, I guess.

I coach high school in northeast CT and have worked with kids ages 9-19. The clinic I run is geared toward Little League coaches. Have played through high school, Babe Ruth and in the Army (Some compare this to Division 2 or 3 ball - I don't know). I played third base and was known for my speed and fielding. After the service I played some baseball and found I was both too old to start over and not good enough to compete at a higher level. From there I played ASA Modified and stopped when I was 40. I began coaching in 1985 (Age 30) when I could no longer compete. I started at the Little League level and progressed to high school. I am a certified coach and have attended a considerable amount of professional clinics and have penned several books on coaching. I have been coaching school ball for 10 years. I do not consider myself an expert in any aspect of the game and am involved in this thread to learn. I am a Honorary Life Time Member of the Little League and hold a Masters degree in Education and am pursuing my doctorate. Now you know who I am. If you like send me an email an I will give more specifics.

Now, if you're dealing with 9-10 years olds, you do the same thing but you don't crank it up to 90. Maybe 75 or 80. I don't know what speed challenges 9-10 year olds. Don't work with them. If they are 12-14 years old I bet a few can do the drill as defined. Maybe 80-85 is a better setting.

Agree

This is pure hogwash and shows your complete lack of understanding of what goes on in high level swings. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate.

Again, it's age dependent. This thread is Hitting Instruction for YOUNG Players.

Your "need" for a resume, to verify ones hitting beliefs is a crutch.

Not to verify, but to understand one's perspective. You obviously know something about hitting. The problem I seek to address is How to Teach Young Hitters. One of the problems in teaching baseball to kids after being involved with the game for nearly 40 years is the self-proclaimed expert that leaves the kids shaking their heads in frustration. (Not accusing you of this) If your advise above comes from someone teaching HS players and college players then I have no problem. If you're teaching young kids (defined as 9-14 - elementary and middle school age), then I see a problem. If you choose not to answer the question so be it. I have no problem telling you what my resume is and what my limitations are.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 11:35 AM

I don't challege the quickness issue, I think its very important. You can wait a tick longer, buts that not all it takes to hit for a high average. I think you drank too much Nyman cool-aid with the comments you are throwing around. All Mike Matheny needs .1-.2 seconds and he's Albert Pujols, give it a rest.

You can use the quote to understand the meaning of quickness and how most (probably up to 95%) all high school players and below don't understand it, but very much need it.....

or.....

you can take the quote too literally and use it to discredit someone. That being said, if .2 doesn't make Mike Matheny the MVP it would definately make him a perennial All Star. A catcher with his defensive skills who can hit .300, hit 20 HR's or more and drive in 80+ runs is an Allstar. BTW, one of the main differences between the top hitters and the next level down is one frame of video at 30 fps. Where do you find that one frame? Strength and conditoning? Probably. Mechancis? Probably.

Your choice. I'll still keep helping young hitters. And, I'll do it without the use of the HBH which teaches the exact opposite of what their greatest problem is.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 11:41 AM

... If your advise above comes from someone teaching HS players and college players then I have no problem. If you're teaching young kids (defined as 9-14 - elementary and middle school age), then I see a problem. If you choose not to answer the question so be it. I have no problem telling you what my resume is and what my limitations are.

I teach predominantly high school and college age players. But, I dont' see the problem with using what I suggested with young kids. The sooner these young kids understand the "how" of quickness the better off they'll be as they advance.

wogdoggy

01-11-2006, 11:56 AM

I teach predominantly high school and college age players. But, I dont' see the problem with using what I suggested with young kids. The sooner these young kids understand the "how" of quickness the better off they'll be as they advance.

Funny I use the same drill when i coached 9's 10' and 11's.I would get behind an L screen and throw very very hard to these kids.Unfortuantely when they were 9 and using 28 inch bats and 11 drops the bats dented immmediately.My kid was forced to swing quickly and decide immediately.he built up his confidence and stopped his arm swinging just to make contact.I think its a very valuable drill.And i usually cant agree with ofor about anything.lol..

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 12:59 PM

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good). ... If you're working with young hitters, 95% of them will see the ball, swing quickly, and then a few fractions of a second later the ball will come into the zone. .. They are now seeing, probably for the first time, that they ARE quick enough to hit 85+ or 90 mph. It was demonstrated for them by ASKING THEM NOT TO HIT THE BALL. Why? Because their efforts to hit the ball precludes them from being quick.Ohfor, I'll address this first, as it's the closest thing to a constructive suggestion I've seen from you for awhile. I agree that kids by age 11 usually are quicker than they think they are, particularly if they can get past the fear factor on fast pitches. My 11-year old son, who does not have a particularly quick bat, faced one of those mini-wiffle ball shooter/pitching machines ("Personal Pitcher"?) at Jim Booth's facility and surpisingly was able to get around on 'em when launched quickly at short range. And in fact we once took him to the cages and he got so cocky after jumping from the 40+ machine to the 55+ machine that he faced the 70+ machine and actually cracked a few, which boosted his confidence.

The first thing young hitters need is a better mental picture of just how quick the swing needs to be.
But, I don't think your first time hitters, or even the talented 10 year old Colton, oughta be facing any 85+ Iron Mikes anytime soon. (I assume you're willing to scale down your suggested speed for younger hitters.) If he takes one near the hands, the sting alone could end his day at the cages. It could scare him away from baseball forever. My son's 9-10 y/o coach, a former college pitcher, thought the way to introduce new kids to kid pitching (from their previous coach pitched level) was to throw hard to 'em the first practice to show 'em what they had to get around on. In fact, they never faced such hard pitching all year. But, all he did was to spook them, and several never really seemed to recover. And, of course, there's a risk that kids will cheat by starting their swing early or shortening their swing to make sure they get around.

Ohfor, could you give us some clear evidence of when you have used this technique, at what age level, and what results (both from a 'statistical' and 'kid reaction' point of view) you got from doing that? It sounds like it could be built into a training program, but I prefer the idea of using a fast wiffle machine first to get over the fear factor.

Now let's get to the areas where you really are digging yourself a hole, okay?

Originally Posted by hiddengem
Why do you think we rely so heavily on advanced scouts? We are looking for tendancies, and patterns pitchers fall into. Its impossible to cover all pitches and all locations, if you try to you'll hit for crap... You're making my point. With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING.

IF we are swinging, you won't launch until you've made your decision. Still could be wrong. Sometimes we are. But, nevertheless, you don't swing before you know where you're swinging.OhFud, you're showing your lack of experience and sense here. HG will know more than I here, but maybe I can at least get at the logical flaws in your argument, which seems to be couched in terms of trying to win the dispute rather than to present objective knowledge.

The key word in HG's post was "tendencies" -- i.e., they're trying to get a little more knowledge of what the pitcher can do (speed, amount of break, etc.) and is likely to do in a given instance. Armed with this information and what he's been seeing that pitcher throw to his teammates, the batter is more likely to get a pitch with the location and timing that he's most looking for. It won't be perfect, but he's more likely to get one or two pitches in the at-bat that he'll be juiced to hit. At least if he can say at a given count, the pitcher is going to go with one of two pitches and locations, he can prepare for just those two pitches and make an early "Fastball?? No. Okay, curve ball!" assessment, sort of like a quarterback looking off a covered primary receiver and going to his secondary receiver. But, pitchers know their tendencies are being watched and are trying to throw off other teams, so you can never be assured that they'll follow those tendencies.

At release, based on pitch count and these tendencies and things like the release point, initial speed and spin, our batter may say, "Yeah, it looks like the fastball I was most expecting" and launch/start his swing (and you're looking like a pedantic a$$ by pestering HG for using the terms "launch" and "start" interchangably) with timing based on that assessment. Later, at the go/no-go point, the batter has to decide based on predicted final location and situation (count, no. of outs, runner location, etc.) if he's in good enough position to go through with the swing, or let it go. If it's a 2-0 count and he's fooled, let a strike go by, unless it's a mistake (say an inside changeup that he can pause on, then turn and rip). If it's 0-2 and a marginal pitch, he'll have to adjust to whatever and try to put it in play, even if it's a "duckfart". (Love that term.) If he's got a runner on third with less than two outs with the infield playing back, he'll take almost any kind of contact rather than go to the dugout after taking a called third strike.

While oversimpified, I think this scenario is not too far removed from what real world hitters need to go through, even armed with information, in deciding whether to take a less than optimally timed swing. It's not that the swing itself will be ugly, but that the front foot may have been planted earlier than he would have liked, bringing us back to the topic at hand. So, maybe it would make sense to practice a drill where the batter plants, waits, and then swings.

So, your suggestion that "you don't swing before you know where you're swinging" doesn't make much sense. We aren't talking where anyway; we're talking when, and the issue is whether you start you're swing even if the pitch doesn't seem to be exactly what you were hoping for. And saying "we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING" strikes me as a ticket back to Pawtucket if you don't have the ability to adjust when the occasion demands a swing.

But since we're talking about the HBH, I just don't see where it "ruins" a hitter. If it gives him time to introduce flaws into his launch -- which I agree is a big problem with kids -- it may even help them by forcing them (with appropriate, supervised coaching) to wait while doing nothing with their hands and arms, sort of like the pitching drill I described above that forces pitchers who normally rush their motions to wait in the "stork" position for several seconds. We've got one tetimonial from a coach who says it helped a whole team of kids. How many kids have you coached who used it extensively?

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 01:24 PM

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 01:44 PM

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 02:23 PM

It's obvious you haven't read all of my posts today.
I'll respond to those who have. Much of what you posted is babble.
I prefer to help those who are interested in help.
I'd suggest you study up on "at bat" plans. I'd sure love to pitch to you based on what you've written.It's not clear who you're addressing all this too, Ohfor. I'd started my response in the morning, and then finished up at lunch, so I'd missed your recognition that the speeds had to be lowered for younger kids. And, if you're teaching HS/College kids, then your plan to feed 'em faster pitches makes more sense. But, it sounds like your kids are't as developed; does this mean you don't actually coach on interscholastic/intercollegiate teams but are just describing the age of kids you teach? Not that that is any less praiseworthy, but I'm just trying to learn the experience base for your assessments of both high level hitting strategy and the ruination of kids' swings from the HBH. In sounds like you're extrapolating from your experience with older kids to say that the HBH "teaches the exact opposite of what their greatest problem is;" when you say, "dont' see the problem with using what I suggested with young kids", it sounds like you have no first hand observations of them using it or playing after doing so, making your conclusions awfully speculative to me. I do coach kids at the levels we're talking about and felt iffy about the HBH, but since Tadlock has used it with success, I have to defer to him more than my own prejudices or even to you.

What is their "greatest problem"? It sounds like you're saying it's inefficient launching of their swings? Hmmm. in chronological order, I'd say, (a) lack of "intent to hit", (b) fear of getting hit by the ball, (c) lack of balance (lunging), (d) too much arm (i.e., 'disconnection), (e) bat drag (rear elbow leads hands to the ball, and (f) failure to turn their hips.

Inefficiency in initial movement isn't in my top six. True, it may come back to bite them later, but most can get around on the ball up until age 15, when they may face some more serious heat, and those that can't earlier usually have more basic issues than inefficient launch to deal with. I think the importance of efficiency is in allowing a good hitter to defer the whole launch process and make better decisions and to make sure the launch consistently begins from the optimum point.

Moving on. Was it my lengthy discussion of the hitting decisionmaking process that you were referring to as babbling? Sorry you weren't able to follow it. Glad that it made sense to the major leaguer in the group. Maybe I can distill it: "When guessing fastball, it's good to be able to recognize and adjust to a cripple change-up. Practicing for it makes adjusting easier." At least that's the part that HG agreed with.

Oh, and I am interested in help. Your discussion of the uber-fast Iron Mike drill was a great inspiration, as were the further suggestions by others in the group. This is not a wasted day for me as a coach, no sir. But, distilling the good out of any advice requires that it be tested in the intellectual marketplace here. Just 'cuz I'm squeezing your intellectual canteloupes to make sure they're ripe doesn't mean that I'm not a serious buyer -- just a discriminating one.

And, the "at-bat plans" comments relate to who? Do they differ from my discussion? And now you want to pitch to me? Which proves..... what? Or, is it to HG? I'll let him stand in as my champion, as I have a bad back and a third-degree shoulder separation. Bring your "L" screen. :eek:

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 02:24 PM

Corner?.......please.

His first two paragraphs clearly indicate he didn't read my posts.

Then his long diatribe indicates he has a very poor at bat plan.

As far as a hitter expecting fastball and getting a change over the plate.......Do you really believe people buy the HBH to make their sons the best changeup hitters in the game?

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 02:36 PM

It's not clear who you're addressing all this too, Ohfor. I'd started my response in the morning, and then finished up at lunch, so I'd missed your recognition that the speeds had to be lowered for younger kids.

That clears that up.

does this mean you don't actually coach on interscholastic/intercollegiate teams but are just describing the age of kids you teach?

Already been answered.

What is their greatest problem? Are you saying it's inefficient launching of their swings? Hmmm. in chronological order, I'd say, (a) lack of "intent to hit", (b) fear of getting hit by the ball, (c) lack of balance (lunging), (d) too much arm (i.e., 'disconnection), (e) bat drag (rear elbow leads hands to the ball, and (d) failure to turn their hips.

Their greatest problem is a poor understanding of swing quickness.

Inefficiency in initial movement isn't in my top five.

This could be defined different ways, I suppose. But it would be #1 to me.

but most can get around on the ball up until age 15, when they may face some more serious heat, and those that can't have more basic issues than inefficient launch to deal with.

I've never use "able to get around" as a guage.

I think the importance of efficiency is in allowing a good hitter to defer the whole launch process and make better decisions and to make sure the launch consistently begins from the optimum point.

Yes. And it exists at all levels.

And, the "at-bat plans" comments relate to who?

You

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 02:37 PM

Corner?.......please.

His first two paragraphs clearly indicate he didn't reat my posts.

Then his long diatribe indicates he has a very poor at bat plan.

As far as a hitter expecting fastball and getting a change over the plate.......Do you really believe people by the HBH to make their sons the best changeup hitters in the game?

Actually neither you or I really know why they buy the HBH. But a good instructor will use it to teach a kid to understand that you go through the important pre swing movements/load every pitch and if you are geared up for a fastball and do things correctly there is going to be a slight pause if you get a change up. I believe that the HBH if used for this reason can be useful to kids.

If you truely have played this game past college(which you have never said), then you will/should understand that most of the time you are facing a pitcher with a very deceptive motion where it is very difficult to tell the difference between the fastball and the changeup. There are going to be times where you commit early thinking it is a fastball and you get a little ahead of yourself and because you've kept your hands back you might have a chance to flick something in for a knock(hit).

Tell me you've never been in that position?

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 05:15 PM

Yes, I've paused to hit a change up. And I believe you can practice it.

But, my point is, people aren't buying that thing to learn to hit the change up. They are buying it to teach a kid how to hit versus how to adjust. And, it will set them back in their quest.

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:
does this mean you don't actually coach on interscholastic/intercollegiate teams but are just describing the age of kids you teach? Ohfor replied: Already been answered. I've read your posts and don't see that point clarified anywhere. Could you give me a thread and post #? Or maybe you could have just said, "Yes" or "no". Senator Feinstein may let Judge Alito squirm away from the tough questions, but we're not going to let you go on that one.

Their greatest problem is a poor understanding of swing quickness.It almost sounds like a New Yorker cartoon, where the Coach takes his young player aside and, with handing resting on shoulder, says, "Son, I know you're hitting .570 for me, but I'll have to bench you 'cuz you don't understand swing quickness." I'm not sure what that means or how that helps us coaches focus on specific problems, since swing quickness is a pretty big part of the whole process. It's like saying, "The problem with poor hitters is that they don't hit well."

Then his long diatribe indicates he has a very poor at bat plan.That's 'cuz it wasn't an "at-bat" plan. Nor was it a Buick, a roast beef sandwich, or a sequel to War & Peace; and it certainly is pretty poor at those functions as well. It was an explanation of why a pro hitter might need to have developed the ability to pause after his initial stride, as HG articulates. And, if it was an "at-bat" plan, I thought it was a bit stronger than "With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING."

I couldn't find much online on "at-bat plans". Seriously.... and I mean seriously, that would be a good topic to start in this forum. Since I don't know much about them and can't find anything, could I ask you to do so?

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 05:50 PM

Time to move off the HBH. We've beat it to death.

In the course of discussion though, at bat plans have been mentioned.

I believe few if any hitters can cover the entire strike zone every pitch. I believe you look for "something" and don't swing unless you get it. Why swing at a pitchers pitch if you don't have to? Why swing out of "your zone" if you don't have to?

The question becomes....What is "something"?

At kids level (9-16 or so) I believe "something" is fastball in your zone only. Don't swing unless you get it. Rip it when you do.

High School level, the same will work very often....maybe as high as 95% of the time. May be time to start practicing at hitting other stuff. In games, stay in your zone.

College. Same plan. Probably works 80% if the time. The good pitchers won't give it in your zone. But there aren't that many of them. Need to start to expect pitches in other zones against the good ones.

Professional. You'll be forced to look for other pitches in other zones. Too much advanced scouting. They'll find your weakness.

I also believe nothing changes with two strikes (except game winning situations of important games; tournament championships, playoffs, etc)

My experience is......if you're setting on a fastball in your happy zone, you'll get one good one each at bat. (on average) Wait for it. Don't swing unless you get it. Rip it when you do. DO NOT PROTECT THE PLATE!! DO NOT expand the zone with 2 strikes. DO NOT shorten up.....all those sayings.....don't do them.

4 at bats per game = 4 good pitches to hit. Hit two of them hard you hit .500 if they aren't caught. .350 if some of them are.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 05:54 PM

I've read your posts and don't see that point clarified anywhere

I said I coach high school and college age players.

tadlock11

01-11-2006, 05:56 PM

I think UM and HG have summed up the HBH's purpose well. To fan the fire a little, the success our kids (9-10 at the time) had after using the HBH (as a drill/station) at the least, boosted their confidence. Didn't someone famous once say that baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical? I've seen poor hitters get in a groove/streak and I think it happened as they gained confidence in themselves.
On the drills, I was talking about hitting only and have hundreds that I've read over the past few days. Some are just variations and others seem useless. But after reading all these posts, there are a couple of folks posting here that I would take advise on to my 10 yr old team and that's why I'm here...to learn. I've been checking out other forums and have heard names being smeared and others revered (SP?). Then I'll look into the programs and find some things that I can take, maybe not all but I believe even the most ridiculous programs may have an element or two that we can use. Also, there are some gadgets out there that someone came up with to make a quick buck, the HBH appears to have been designed and engineered to aide a hitter (quick note on it, a local coach has a son that plays AAA and uses the HBH in his apartment). It is about the closest thing you can come to with doing soft-toss by yourself. I'll get off that now as I don't want to sound like I'm trying to sell the thing...I've bought one and love it.
Also glad you clarified slowing down the speed of your training to a pre-teen, I thought you were insane there for a sec!
Really appreciate the discussion here because I'm getting a lot out of it from all sides.
Oh and thanks for calling my son talented :) Perhaps as the new season gets going, I'll have some up to date clips and would love to get him critiqed/assessed by you guys if you don't mind.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 06:02 PM

The key word in HG's post was "tendencies" -- i.e., they're trying to get a little more knowledge of what the pitcher can do (speed, amount of break, etc.) and is likely to do in a given instance. Armed with this information and what he's been seeing that pitcher throw to his teammates, the batter is more likely to get a pitch with the location and timing that he's most looking for. It won't be perfect, but he's more likely to get one or two pitches in the at-bat that he'll be juiced to hit. At least if he can say at a given count, the pitcher is going to go with one of two pitches and locations, he can prepare for just those two pitches and make an early "Fastball?? No. Okay, curve ball!" assessment

Sounds like an at bat plan to me.

Jake Patterson

01-11-2006, 06:54 PM

Tad - would love to see updated clips.

As easy as it sounds, seperation (Toe tap, hands back, swing start, load, what ever we want to call it) is a difficult concept to teach young kids with average or little talent. We keep getting hung up here talking about these concepts like every kid that plays the game has exceptional talent - this is not the case. Average numbers throughout the United States indicate there is a 10:1 to as much as a 20:1 Little League to high school player ratio (i.e. 10 Little League players to 1 HS player). Like it or not we have to be able to teach the unskilled as well as the skilled at the youth level. Sometimes devises and little tricks help. Who knows if we do the job well at the youth level - we may get more kids to enjoy it.

The numbers given by Little League, The National Alliance of Youth Sports and other youth organizations support that most kids quit baseball before the age of 12. Comparing our Little League numbers to our Jr. and Sr. League numbers we can support this finding.
The biggest reasons? Overbearing parents and coaches, poor planning and experience, and last but not least, (drum roll) poor or inadequate training.

Keep the clips coming....

tominct

01-11-2006, 07:03 PM

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
I've read your posts and don't see that point clarified anywhere
Ohfor replied: I said I coach high school and college age players.Right, and I expressly noted this and said, "does this mean you don't actually coach on interscholastic/intercollegiate teams but are just describing the age of kids you teach?" Big difference. Are these official interscholastic/intercollegiate school teams, or traveling teams, or intramural teams, or what? If you don't want to be more specific, please say so, but don't tell us that you've answered the question, Judge Alito.
Sounds like an at bat plan to me.Well, dang, and there I drafted my first at-bat plan without knowing it. 'course, it would've been better if I knew the pitcher, the situation, and the batter and his strengths and weaknesses. I'd like to think those go into a plan, too. Don't the plans need to be individualized, or is "wait for a fastball in your happy zone and don't shorten up with two strikes" kinda one-size fits all? Boy, when word gets around that my team won't swing at junk (it's a seven-team league, with everyone playing each other three times), guess what we're going to see a lot of?

Glad we're getting away from the HBH. It was a helpful discussion with everyone one its pluses and minuses.

Tad, I wasn't blowing smoke at you on the kid's swing. Sure, it needs work, but it's got a good swing angle, he's aggressive, and he's got an incredible amount of quickness for one that relies on his arms (instead of his hips and shoulders) and with so much bat drag (i.e., his bottom elbow leads his hands into the ball). At his level, he'll get his hits.

As far as getting general guidance on coaching your son's team, well, I'm sitting here with a copy of Jake Patterson's book How To Coach Little League: A Short Easy To Follow Guide On How To Begin Your Little League Coaching Career on my lap, and boy is it what you need. If you think Jake makes sense here, his book is 157 pages of the same sort of stuff, or as I described it to him -- a real "soup to nuts" primer for coaches. I've got no reason to flog his book for him other than it's really, really good. I mean, I've gotten to know Jake online here and like him because, well, he's a really, really good guy and smart coach (or at least smart coaching author). The neat part is that it is not expensive -- $13.95 for the hard copy, and $8.95 for the Ebook you can instantly download. (Now, I'm not sure if the copy I have is the same edition that his publisher sells; check with Jake on that.) I sense that you have the same sensibilities as Jake does about coaching kids, and you'll really like the book. If you don't, I'll buy it from you and give it to someone who will. (I know a lot of coaches who need it!) You can get it at:

http://www.booklocker.com/books/1534.html

(End of commercial, and Jake, I'm sorry if I embarrassed you.)

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 07:26 PM

I believe I am correctly attributing the derogatory Dave Hudgens comments to you, if I am in error, I sincerlely apologize.I believe that was JBooth, who as a San Francisco Bay Area resident became and remains apoplectic at what Hudgens did to the A's hitters before being fired. Jake is too much of a gentleman to use the kind of vitriol that Jim Booth does. :D (Sorry, Jim... couldn't resist.)

tadlock11

01-11-2006, 07:34 PM

Thanks, I'll definately check it out. Would like to get your assessments on the coach that I've done most of my learning through - Bragg Stockton. Have his books and vids. What are your thoughts on his training? (It's actually been a few years since I've watched the videos so I may have to go dig them out as a refresher:noidea )

jbooth

01-11-2006, 07:44 PM

jake, where in CT? Im there too. And not for nothing, I do not see anything wrong with teaching the Dave Hudgens method. I have the program, have studied it, and others, and don't see any similarities to Rich Gedmans death swing crica 1987 to what Dave teaches. Actually, I don't see anything that Dave teaches that manny Ramirez doesn't do. This chop thing is just not right, he doens't teach that, he teaches keeping the hands inside the ball (who wouldn't) and making a direct path to the ball, (again, who wouldn't?)

As for the two tee drill mentioned some time ago in this thread, that is clearly for the young hitter to develop mucsle memory so as to keep the bat head up..Many young players (I coach 7-8 y/olds and Middle school) have weak top hands that collpase, then the bat head drops, and bingo! Looping swing. If one places a barrier behind the hitter, he will make contact with said barrier if his top hand collpases(which almost every 7 or 8 year old does) that barrier can be a fence or a tee or a poll, really doesn't matter.

And If I may add, it seems silly to criticize someone who is a major league hitting coach, when all one does is coach Highschool, particulalrly in New England. its not like you're turning out many prospects, because no one in CT is!

I believe I am correctly attributing the derogatory Dave Hudgens comments to you, if I am in error, I sincerlely apologize.

Tom

If you actually believe that Manny Ramirez swings anything like the way Dave Hudgens teaches, you need a lot more study of the swing and I'm not going to waste my time debating it. I have Hudgens tapes, I changed my swing to that and couldn't hit for beans. I finally realized it wasn't the way any MLB player I could locate, swings, and went to Epstein then to Nyman.

The bathead doesn't stay above the hands, the hands don't go directly to the ball, there is almost nothing correct about what Hudgens teaches. Yeah, he WAS a major league coach and he got fired because the team's batting average dropped 30 points. You can't succeed with that swing. OK I've stated my opinion, but I'm not going to debate it. If you believe he knows what he is talking about, that is your free choice.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 07:52 PM

If you actually believe that Manny Ramirez swings anything like the way Dave Hudgens teaches, you need a lot more study of the swing and I'm not going to waste my time debating it. I have Hudgens tapes, I changed my swing to that and couldn't hit for beans. I finally realized it wasn't the way any MLB player I could locate, swings, and went to Epstein then to Nyman.

The bathead doesn't stay above the hands, the hands don't go directly to the ball, there is almost nothing correct about what Hudgens teaches. Yeah, he WAS a major league coach and he got fired because the team's batting average dropped 30 points. You can't succeed with that swing. OK I've stated my opinion, but I'm not going to debate it. If you believe he knows what he is talking about, that is your free choice.

I'll second that. Do yourself a BIG favor and hang around here a while and just read what we are typing with an open mind. Then go back and watch the best hitters in the game and what we are saying will match how they hit.

Edgar Martinez was one of the best hitters to play the game. If you think for one second that his swing was anything like the swings you see on Hudgens tapes, you need to go back over it and look again.

Jake Patterson

01-11-2006, 07:58 PM

jake, where in CT?

Northeast CT - Thompson

And If I may add, it seems silly to criticize someone who is a major league hitting coach, when all one does is coach Highschool, particulalrly in New England.

Who are you speaking of? The only pro that I am aware of in this thread is Hiddengem and I have enjoyed and have learned a great deal from his input. See my post from 3:55 yesturday. You may have me confused with someone else (?)

its not like you're turning out many prospects, because no one in CT is!

Certainly not as many as some southern areas, but we do. Norwich, CT had one of the best high school pitchers in the country last year (Carignan). Paul Konerko is from our area!

I believe I am correctly attributing the derogatory Dave Hudgens comments to you, if I am in error, I sincerlely apologize.

I believe you are in error...

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 08:03 PM

...........

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 08:19 PM

...Professional. You'll be forced to look for other pitches in other zones. Too much advanced scouting. They'll find your weakness.

I guess you missed this part.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 08:36 PM

I guess you missed this part.

Will you please tell us at what level this was experienced?

And I guess you missed this part

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 08:37 PM

Professional. You'll be forced to look for other pitches in other zones. Too much advanced scouting. They'll find your weakness.

I did miss that part, I apologize.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 08:44 PM

At what level did you experience this

Same as you. College and below. My point was for youth, high school and college.......Make hay on the fastball. Practice the other. You'll need it eventually. But, why swing at anything else when you don't have to?

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 08:45 PM

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 08:48 PM

Same as you. College and below. My point was for youth, high school and college.......Make hay on the fastball. Practice the other. You'll need it eventually. But, why swing at anything else when you don't have to?

And I agree. Do you have any experience above college ball, where you have to make adjustments during the game or AB depending on how you are getting pitched that night? I've been so baffled at times that I have no clue what they are doing, and I end up trying to cover anything and everthing that comes at me. Obviously the result isn't very good for that stretch.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 08:59 PM

And I agree. Do you have any experience above college ball, where you have to make adjustments during the game or AB depending on how you are getting pitched that night? I've been so baffled at times that I have no clue what they are doing, and I end up trying to cover anything and everthing that comes at me. Obviously the result isn't very good for that stretch.

I have been there. What I settled on is 1) make an educated plan 2) stick to the plan until I have overwhelming evidence to change it.

Sometimes you have to tip your hat to the pitcher. After all, he's trying to make a living too.

But, when you doubt your plan....you're done before the pitch.

I decided a long time ago that I wanted to fail because of a faulty plan before a faulty swing.

I want to execute my good swing as often as I can. I feel the more good swings I take the more hits I'll get. Can't tell you when they'll come but more will come. I want to take a bad swing as seldom as possible. I've settled on.....A good swing at a tough pitch is better than a bad swing at a good pitch. Bad swing at a good pitch will break me down mentally quicker than a good swing at a tough pitch.

Of course, I get fooled and look stupid sometimes. But, I insist that comes from a misjudgement than from a bad plan.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 09:19 PM

I have been there. What I settled on is 1) make an educated plan 2) stick to the plan until I have overwhelming evidence to change it.

Sometimes you have to tip your hat to the pitcher. After all, he's trying to make a living too.

But, when you doubt your plan....you're done before the pitch.

I decided a long time ago that I wanted to fail because of a faulty plan before a faulty swing.

I want to execute my good swing as often as I can. I feel the more good swings I take the more hits I'll get. Can't tell you when they'll come but more will come. I want to take a bad swing as seldom as possible. I've settled on.....A good swing at a tough pitch is better than a bad swing at a good pitch. Bad swing at a good pitch will break me down mentally quicker than a good swing at a tough pitch.

Of course, I get fooled and look stupid sometimes. But, I insist that comes from a misjudgement than from a bad plan.

You have a PM

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 09:57 PM

Just wanted to say that tonight I went down to my facility and was doing some hitting and tried the drill "ohfor" was talking about. The one were you get in on a fast machine 80-85mph and scoot up a bit.

I was on our machine set at about 83mph but I was hitting from about 40ft or so. You just find a way to get to the ball, and after about 2 rounds the ball starts to slow down and you start squaring balls up pretty consistently.

The hard part is going back to 60ft and not introducing unnecessary movement in your swing. You somehow have to sit there and force yourself to wait until the last moment and explode on the ball, the same way you did at 40ft.

I recall a drill Edgar Martinez did where he stood in on a tennis ball machine at about 160mph and tried to read numbers on the balls. He said this helped him slow the ball down, so in the game 90mph looked like 80mph. Have you tried this Ohfor?

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 10:33 PM

As for the two tee drill mentioned some time ago in this thread, that is clearly for the young hitter to develop mucsle memory so as to keep the bat head up..Many young players (I coach 7-8 y/olds and Middle school) have weak top hands that collpase, then the bat head drops, and bingo! Looping swing. If one places a barrier behind the hitter, he will make contact with said barrier if his top hand collpases(which almost every 7 or 8 year old does) that barrier can be a fence or a tee or a poll, really doesn't matter.Tom, welcome to our happy .... er sorta ... group. I think the problem with negative feedback drills like that for kids who are so young is that it tells 'em that something is wrong, but it doesn't tell 'em why. So, who knows what they'll do to avoid it. And, they don't want a penalty that'll freeze 'em up; they need to cut loose to let centrifugal force be their friend!

At that age, my son was the poster child for bat droop, and we just relied on age and aggressiveness to overcome it. The problem with the linear/Hudgens method is that it allows the hands to dangle out there with nothing to support the bathead and gravity dragging it down. If you can get the kids to hold the bat back supported by their shoulder and then rotate their hips, the centrifugal force will help keep the bat from drooping to much, and they should have enough oomph to reach the outfield and have fun. Here's a .gif of a 5 year old grandkid of one of Hitting-mechanics.org's posters who does a nice bit of Epstein-like counter-rotation (loading up) and, with a turn of the hips, good centered balance and a whole bunch of intent, launches the ball. Sure the bathead droops a little, but his centrifugal force brings into it right into the plane of the ball.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/LittlexavierSm.gif
If your kids can get this kind of rotation now, they can wait until their hand/wrist strength catches up. When they're nine.

I think another problem with bat droop is that it's a windup/timing device for kids. You just need to drill them on tees (where timing isn't an issue) to rotate and swing directly toward the ball; stop them them if they delay to let the bathead drop. At this age, you need parents, not loud objects, correcting their droop during the drills. After awhile, you can use the props as an occasional game for the kids. Divide the team and see how many on each squad can hit the ball without hitting the object behind them (a metal chair can be good). But I think that should be a reminder, not the initial trainer. And, use an OLD bat. :)

wogdoggy

01-12-2006, 04:50 AM

As far as the 85 mph fastballs for 11-12 yr olds.Everbody realizes kids dont throw that fast at that age,but thats not the point or basis of the drill.What you are teaching are tracking techniques of a very fast ball that in fact these kids will not see.That will in turn improve their vision of a ball thrown at their speed for age level.secondly letting them FULL SWING at these pitches will also improve their fast twitch muscles etc.
pros track balls all the time at speeds over 100 while they call out the colors.

As far as the HBH goes if it causes you to land on a flat front foot then to me its no good.

Ohfor

01-12-2006, 07:15 AM

...The hard part is going back to 60ft and not introducing unnecessary movement in your swing. You somehow have to sit there and force yourself to wait until the last moment and explode on the ball, the same way you did at 40ft.

Yes, this will be the hard part. It is the rewiring of the timing.
And, "unnecessary movement" is not the same as "inefficient movement". You may need to fill the time with some movement. Just make sure it doesn't get in the way of launch.

Chipper Jones has a lot of "casual" preswing movement. It doesn't get in his way.

One of the keys to converting to the 60' distance is this movement. Another key is "memory". You have to memorize the quick swing. Then you have to do the opposite....slow it down for timing and then build it up to your memory over a series of pitches (say 10-20 pitches). Going directly from very quick at 40' to very quick at 60' is difficult. There is a transition stage to recover timing. Then, as you get up to speed, you should be able to duplicate the quick swing from 60' by waiting for the ball and launching later than before.

The hitting at 40' is to learn the goal. The quick swing. To memorize it so you know if you're doing it right when you "get it" at 60'. If you don't stress yourself you will never identify the quickness needed. That's the benefit of the 40'.

Then learn to pull it off from 60'. You do this by first slowing it down (for timing) and then building it back up. Introduce you preswing movements but wait longer and longer and longer until you can be quick from 60'. This is where the memory comes in. You have to ask yourself, does this feel like it did from 60'. Compare. Contrast. If yes, you're getting it. You're also getting a much longer look at the ball. Better decisions will be made from the benefit of this "added" time.

This rewiring of your timing is not as much a function of your swing but a function of your brain. Your brain is sending the signal too soon for your new found quickness. That has to be rewired.

Jake Patterson

01-12-2006, 07:44 AM

hiddengem

01-12-2006, 09:06 AM

Do you have a clip on this?? Would be interested in seeing. I have not tried it.

I don't but its going to look something like this...I'll try and get one. But I have a tough time making the file small enough to post on this site.

pgibbons

01-12-2006, 09:30 AM

I'll try and get one. But I have a tough time making the file small enough to post on this site.

I can donate some server space from my web-site, just send me an email/pm.

This offer goes to anyone with informational clips.

Ursa Major

01-12-2006, 09:30 AM

Wogdoggy said: As far as the 85 mph fastballs for 11-12 yr olds. Everbody realizes kids dont throw that fast at that age,but thats not the point or basis of the drill.Machines and cages will differ, but I think a 70MPH machine should probably provide the drill that Ohfor has in mind for kids that age. About 65 is as fast as they'll likely face unless they're in travel ball. (My son's summer league had a phenomenal 12 year old man/boy who pitched about 70-72 MPH; he almost tore my son's thumb off trying to catch him and scared me, a former catcher, to death to try to catch him from 46 feet in warmups. I was all, "Nice fastball, fella, let's work on the curve and change-up for awhile..." :hp )

As far as the HBH goes if it causes you to land on a flat front foot then to me its no good.Absolutely. That's why I asked Tad if the kid could consistently hit the little string trigger with his toes. If he has to grope for the string that way, then he loses all connection between the drill and his regular swing.

Ohfor said: And, "unnecessary movement" is not the same as "inefficient movement". You may need to fill the time with some movement. Just make sure it doesn't get in the way of launch.This is a huge issue. For my son and his teammates who, at age 11 and 12, now find that their strength and bat speed makes it easier to "get around on" (sorry about the term, OhFor, but you know what I mean) pitches at their level even though the pitchers are a wee bit faster, the real issue is keeping them from using that extra waiting time to devolve to bad habits -- mostly dropping the bathead back. We're trying to work on the back shoulderblade "scapular loading" (see Vladimir Guerrero here (http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg) to see what I mean) as a way to fill the time effectively. Any other thoughts on drills or cues to help kids wait?

Originally Posted by hiddengem
When working with young kids and trying to get them to understand the correct bat path, have any of you put a Hoola-Hoop around their body to show them that the swing plane changes and their spine tilts? I have and it is working well. Jake P. replied: Do you have a clip on this?? Would be interested in seeing. I have not tried it.Sounds interesting. Since most kids that age have no hips, unlike the rest of us "old bulls", using a hula hoop the intended way is a problem. Do they actually do something with it, or do you just hold it as they stand in different positions with someone holding the hoop out at 90 degrees from their bodies? HG, if you want to Email me any clips (as long as they're under about 6 MB [as my mailbox limit gets full]), I can shrink it down to a manageable size to either post here as a .gif or as a download that people can go to.

Jake Patterson

01-12-2006, 09:44 AM

jbooth

01-12-2006, 10:34 AM

When working with young kids and trying to get them to understand the correct bat path, have any of you put a Hoola-Hoop around their body to show them that the swing plane changes and their spine tilts? I have and it is working well.

Yep, been doing that for years.

Put it around their neck/shoulders area to show the path and plane the hands and bat take. Shows them how changing their body tilt changes the path and how moving the hands to the ball messes things up.

hiddengem

01-12-2006, 11:38 AM

Thanks coach, I think this describes it well. I should have been able to make the connection. Golf pros use a similar devise to teach proper swing plane. I am certain it's very similar to what we're talking about here. I use it every once and a while at the club and am surprised how distorted my swing plane becomes.
4782

Yea, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I just hold the hoop around their nect to show how the path show go. What this does is really "open their eyes" to the fact that the bat does not "Cast" away from their body and swing down on the ball, rather it stays on an inside "Track" if you will, directly to the ball on the same plane.

I think the problem in getting kids to even take this type of swing is because in their mind they feel like they are upercutting because they are finishing high. But they are not just as long as they back shoulder doesn't drop back first.

I love the look on the kids face when they take the right swing for the first time and hang a rope off the back of the cage. They can hardly believe what just happened....Priceless.;)

hiddengem

01-12-2006, 11:41 AM

Yep, been doing that for years.

Put it around their neck/shoulders area to show the path and plane the hands and bat take. Shows them how changing their body tilt changes the path and how moving the hands to the ball messes things up.

Jim, I'm glad to hear that you are doing this as well.

pgibbons

01-12-2006, 06:47 PM

Tonight at the batting cages with my buddy, we tried Ohfor's suggestion of swinging as soon as we saw the ball on the fast pitch machine. It was exactly as he said - we swung early everytime. We were amazed. That's one of those little things that changes your perspective in a big way.

Jake Patterson

01-12-2006, 08:03 PM

We were amazed. That's one of those little things that changes your perspective in a big way.

In what way Pete?

pgibbons

01-12-2006, 08:22 PM

In what way Pete?

Well we hit one round at the fast pitch machine and we were late on every swing - anything we were able to hit was a foul ball to the opposite field. We complained that we couldn't get around quick enough at that speed.

Then I tried doing exactly what was described in the thread - swing as soon as you see the ball, don't worry about hitting it.

I couldn't believe how far in front I was. We both looked at each other the first time I tried it and laughed - both recognizing that perhaps we could swing that fast.

On the very next pitch, I hit a perfect line drive back into the screen. I wish I could say I hit the rest of them like that, but I didn't. Still, the lesson was clear - we could swing much faster than we thought.

We thought our 'slow swings' were a physical barrier, but it turns out they were a mental barrier.

I'm being overly verbose and am probably not explaining myself very well. It was just one of those baseball lessons where the lesson you learn can be applied to other areas of your life - kinda makes you say to yourself, "what other mental barriers have I put up that keep me from doing things I want to do?"

Weird, huh?

tominct

01-13-2006, 06:29 PM

jbooth

01-13-2006, 08:03 PM

I'm very aware of Caringan and NFA, but Caringan didn't get drafted, and at 5-10 or whatever he is, I saw him in the semis against Amity his senior year, very impressive, but how many 5'10 MLB pitchers are there? Not many.

Anyway, back to Hudgens, is someone telling me that he doesn't teach hip-rotation? Need I get his book and quote it? perhaps I shall....well, I can't locate it right now for some reason. Oh well. I'll let you guys get back to fielded the phone calls from all the major league owners calling you to invite you for interviews. hehehe

He teaches rotation, but he teaches you to keep the bathead above the hands as you swing at the ball, and to move your hands from the start position, in a line down at the ball. THAT is the incorrect part. The bathead, in a good swing goes below the hands, and the hands should never go down in a straight line. They go in an arc from shoulder to shoulder.

hiddengem

01-13-2006, 10:05 PM

I'm very aware of Caringan and NFA, but Caringan didn't get drafted, and at 5-10 or whatever he is, I saw him in the semis against Amity his senior year, very impressive, but how many 5'10 MLB pitchers are there? Not many.

Anyway, back to Hudgens, is someone telling me that he doesn't teach hip-rotation? Need I get his book and quote it? perhaps I shall....well, I can't locate it right now for some reason. Oh well. I'll let you guys get back to fielded the phone calls from all the major league owners calling you to invite you for interviews. hehehe

I'm not sure what your level of experience is playing or what your goals are as far as your playing career goes, but if you continue to swing the bat like Hudgens teaches, it is MY belief that you will never reach your full potential as a hitter.

Do your own homework and look at the best hitters swings, and compare them to what he teaches. Go here and take a look at some great swings.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

tominct

01-14-2006, 09:53 AM

Jake Patterson

01-14-2006, 10:36 AM

We thought our 'slow swings' were a physical barrier, but it turns out they were a mental barrier.

Going back to the original intent of the thread, is there something here that we can use to actually teach the kids?

Ohfor's original points may have a lesson. Comments?

I'm going to take some hitters to the cage and try it....

hiddengem

01-14-2006, 12:19 PM

No! Thats not what he teaches! What is this the O'Reilly Factor?!!! Please quote from Dave's book where he says that. If you can back that statement up with a quote, fine. But like Bill O'Reilly, my guess is the truth will escape you.

By the way, for those who don't know, Dave was hired by the Cleveland Indians to be their orgainzation's hitting coordinator. Lots of people get let go by major league teams, so dissing the guy for his team's losing batting average points is unfair. Were you guys dissing the A's hitting when they had Giambi, Tejada, Jermaine Dey, Chavez (with good hitters around him)and others? Please, stick to the facts. Otherwise you lose credibility, at least with me, not that it matters I suppose.

I(nor anybody) were dissing the A's hitters when they were swinging the bat without the instruction of Hudgens. However, when he came on the scene, they were highly inconsistent, when he left the hitting improved 50 points or more.

I haven't read his book and don't really care to...what I did see were his DVD's. I watched exactly how he teaches and how he swings the bat. Out of his mouth word for word was "the barrell of the bat should stay above the hands until just the moment before contact". That sir means you should take a direct or downward swing to the ball and not be "in line" or on the "same plane as the ball until the last second before you make contact.

Thats not at all how successful professional players swing the bat, and a good hitter will tell you that your swing gets into the correct slot or plane of the ball early and stays in that line as long as you can so you give yourself a better chance of making solid contact.

hiddengem

01-14-2006, 12:21 PM

Going back to the original intent of the thread, is there something here that we can use to actually teach the kids?

Ohfor's original points may have a lesson. Comments?

I'm going to take some hitters to the cage and try it....

I would first try front toss from about 10ft or so in front of the hitter, and if you are good at flipping, give them a good FIRM toss so that if there is any flaw in there swing, the ball will get by them or they will be late. Then move on to the cage.

jbooth

01-14-2006, 12:23 PM

No! Thats not what he teaches! What is this the O'Reilly Factor?!!! Please quote from Dave's book where he says that. If you can back that statement up with a quote, fine. But like Bill O'Reilly, my guess is the truth will escape you.

By the way, for those who don't know, Dave was hired by the Cleveland Indians to be their orgainzation's hitting coordinator. Lots of people get let go by major league teams, so dissing the guy for his team's losing batting average points is unfair. Were you guys dissing the A's hitting when they had Giambi, Tejada, Jermaine Dey, Chavez (with good hitters around him)and others? Please, stick to the facts. Otherwise you lose credibility, at least with me, not that it matters I suppose.

I have his DVD's and his books and he most certainly emphasizes over and over, to keep the bathead above the hands. Then he demonstrates the ugliest swing in the world, that nobody uses. He tells you to start the bat down at an angle, leading with he handle. I have my facts straight, and if the Indians actually follow his instruction I predict they will end up near last place. MLB hitters don't always do what the hitting coach tells them, and when Hudgens is the coach, that is a wise decision. He had the A's doing drills during BP to hit the ball on the ground between the mound and the plate. What the heck good is THAT?! In his DVD he tries to demonstrate what he thinks is a HR power swing and he can't even get the ball in the air to second base, his swing has so much chop in it. I'm not going to debate with you, I read his book and bought his videos and have now thrown them in the garbage.

dglts

01-14-2006, 12:52 PM

Teach 'em the same way.

jbooth

01-14-2006, 01:14 PM

Teach 'em the same way.

Same way as what?

pgibbons

01-14-2006, 01:25 PM

Going back to the original intent of the thread, is there something here that we can use to actually teach the kids?

Two lessons from Yogi come to mind:

1) 90% of baseball is half-mental.

2) You can't think and hit at the same time.

But seriously, there is probably something physical that can be taught with that exercise. A phrase I often hear is "how to remove slop" from the swing. Perhaps this exercise could help with that. Maybe someone else can shed some light on that - I certainly don't have the qualifications to give hitting advice.

Jake Patterson

01-14-2006, 04:50 PM

I would first try front toss from about 10ft or so in front of the hitter, and if you are good at flipping, give them a good FIRM toss so that if there is any flaw in there swing, the ball will get by them or they will be late. Then move on to the cage.

We do this with a softball net. Had I thought about it what Ohfor describes is emulated with a short toss batting drill.

Ohfor

01-14-2006, 08:36 PM

Not really.

Ursa Major

01-15-2006, 12:24 AM

Close enough. :D

Jake Patterson

01-15-2006, 05:12 AM

Has any one used or seen Turtle Thomas' DVD? He is know as a "man of a thousand hitting drills." He coaches at LSU.

jbooth

01-15-2006, 07:41 AM

Has any one used or seen Turtle Thomas' DVD? He is know as a "man of a thousand hitting drills." He coaches at LSU.

A THOUSAND?!

I can't imagine why you need more than 5.

hiddengem

01-15-2006, 09:45 AM

We do this with a softball net. Had I thought about it what Ohfor describes is emulated with a short toss batting drill.

I've done both drills and they do the same thing. In both drills you have no time for slop in your swing.

Jake Patterson

01-15-2006, 10:16 AM

A THOUSAND?! I can't imagine why you need more than 5.

He went on for two hours without taking a breath. Had a drill for every hitting problem you could imagine. His site... http://www.turtleball.com/index.asp?page=0
Great speaker...

JB- Maybe not quite a thousand....

hiddengem

01-15-2006, 11:06 AM

Well, based on a couple of those pictures on the front page, I'd say he's getting his hitters in a very good position through the ball with nice tilt in the spine.

Ursa Major

01-15-2006, 06:24 PM

Hmmm, maybe a couple of red flags about him:

1. He spends a whole $30 video just talking about bat selection, grip and stance.
2. He describes the key facets of lower body mechanics as "(1) a short quick soft stride, (2) two transfers of weight, (3) pivot and (4) tall firm legs."
3. His upper body mechanics tape (geez, you can buy the upper body tape separate from the lower body one?) focuses on: "(1) the visual tracking of the ball, (2) trigger of the hands, (3) inside out stroke, and (4) follow through position."

Sounds like "The Lau of Physics" to me.

Jake Patterson

01-16-2006, 09:32 AM

Sounds like "The Lau of Physics" to me.

While I have never seen Charllie Lau I have seen his tapes and have attended sessions given by one of his disciples, Walt Hrniak. Based on that I would have to say that Turtle left me with a much better perspective of hitting than I got from Lau Ball. I can get my hands on several of his tapes. Will review and see.

tominct

01-16-2006, 06:41 PM

I have his DVD's and his books and he most certainly emphasizes over and over, to keep the bathead above the hands. Then he demonstrates the ugliest swing in the world, that nobody uses. He tells you to start the bat down at an angle, leading with he handle. I have my facts straight, and if the Indians actually follow his instruction I predict they will end up near last place. MLB hitters don't always do what the hitting coach tells them, and when Hudgens is the coach, that is a wise decision. He had the A's doing drills during BP to hit the ball on the ground between the mound and the plate. What the heck good is THAT?! In his DVD he tries to demonstrate what he thinks is a HR power swing and he can't even get the ball in the air to second base, his swing has so much chop in it. I'm not going to debate with you, I read his book and bought his videos and have now thrown them in the garbage.

Ok, I have the tapes not the DVD's so perhaps there is some diviation. however, I DO have his video analysis program and that is SPOT ON! I took a look at the web site with all the clips of Chipper, and Bonds, and KGjR. etc, and I have some questions. please understand as acoach and a father of 2 young boys, I have an interest in good information, and sorry to say, I am more likely to listen to someone who has coached major League MVP's than someone who coaches HS or AAU. I turst that doesn't offend anyone.
Now, back to this thing about the bat head: I have 2 questions:

1. How does one DEFINE early in the saying that one has to get the bat in the plane of the ball early? (Perhaps I am quoting from the wrong post, but you all have read this thread)I watched the Glaus video and Chipper video among others from the site to which I previously referred, and the bat head is above the hands until just about the time when the ball reaches the plate. Please look at the Chipper clip please, I know I am not blowing smoke here.

2. Do you argue NOT to lead with the handle? Dave Hudgens is certainly not the only person who has said this, and I am certain that if I were to analyze the clips according to Dave's Video training analysis book, I would find that his information is accurate. Now, if you want to argue that Troy Glaus and Chipper Jones have lousy swings......

Ohfor

01-16-2006, 06:51 PM

tadlock11

01-16-2006, 07:42 PM

please understand as acoach and a father of 2 young boys, I have an interest in good information, and sorry to say, I am more likely to listen to someone who has coached major League MVP's than someone who coaches HS or AAU.
Tom, I also have two boys 10 and 7 that I have been coaching. First off, most of the MVP caliber players you mentioned were taught correctly from youth age. Many hitting coaches (ML) get undue credit when they have a few big time hitters on their squad. I have seen coaches in many sports that had a knack and knowledge to convey information in way that players could understand and use - when that coach may have never played the given sport at an upper level. The flip-side, there have been numerous MVP players that couldn't explain how to make a PB & J sandwich, much less fundamentals or mechanics of the game. They just know how to do it. There are some very smart and wise coaches here with lots of advise that I'm trying to soak in before this spring season gets going.

Jake Patterson

01-16-2006, 08:43 PM

Tom, I also have two boys 10 and 7 that I have been coaching. First off, most of the MVP caliber players you mentioned were taught correctly from youth age. Many hitting coaches (ML) get undue credit when they have a few big time hitters on their squad.

Tad, I think this lies at the crux of the problem. Many parents believe that their children should be out there learning from the pros. They give little consideration to the developmental aspect of the game from a physical, emotional, intelectual and practical standpoint. As a parent we would not send an average 10 y/o child who is interested in music to an instructor at the Julliard center to learn piano, we would first send them to them to someone more talent apropriate and test their capabilities first. Yet in baseball we are easy to dismiss the good high school, Little League coaches, and middle school coaches in favor of a "pro." We're building the roof before we pour the foundation....

If I had a nickle for every 10 y/o I've seen destroyed by over zelous parents and coaches seeking the best training... They forget they're just kids. Hense the original question Do we teach 9-12 y/o's the same way we teach high school and collge players?

hiddengem

01-16-2006, 08:43 PM

1. How does one DEFINE early in the saying that one has to get the bat in the plane of the ball early? (Perhaps I am quoting from the wrong post, but you all have read this thread)I watched the Glaus video and Chipper video among others from the site to which I previously referred, and the bat head is above the hands until just about the time when the ball reaches the plate. Please look at the Chipper clip please, I know I am not blowing smoke here.

First I want to point something out. This is not to belittle you or try and make you look or feel stupid. It is my opinion, and most likely the opinon of most of the folks subscribing to this thread that you aren't very good at looking at a swing, and knowing what is going on. In the Chipper Jones clip, his bat head is below his hands and "in line" with the ball when the ball is probably 4 ft from him. Dave Hudgens would probably get sick seeing it, or try and explain how his swing does that. I just don't agree. I rewatched Hudgens swing, and it is very "choppy" and slashes to the ball. I've talked to many players in the A's system and most of them disagree with his style and don't come close to swinging like he does on his DVD's.

2. Do you argue NOT to lead with the handle? Dave Hudgens is certainly not the only person who has said this, and I am certain that if I were to analyze the clips according to Dave's Video training analysis book, I would find that his information is accurate. Now, if you want to argue that Troy Glaus and Chipper Jones have lousy swings......

"Lead with the handle" What exactly do you mean by that? I believe you should start the rotation of your swing with your shoulders and hips and by doing that you will not allow your bat to "cast" away from your shoulders. By doing that my bat head will be pointing directly at the catcher when my hips are clearing. I guess that might appear as if I'm leading with the handle, but I sure don't conciously(sp) think about doint that.

I did you a favor and put together a bunch of clips to prove our point to you about "exactly" what happens, not what Hudgens "thinks" happens.

I'm posting a clip of Chippers bat below his hands, and you can see how far the ball is in front of him. Then a shot of McGuire and you can't even see the ball yet. then a picture of "Your's Truely" in camp last year. On my swing, the result was a ball crushed down the left feild line. Chippers was a long homerun, and I don't know about McGuires.

Thoughts?

tominct

01-16-2006, 08:55 PM

Tom, I also have two boys 10 and 7 that I have been coaching. First off, most of the MVP caliber players you mentioned were taught correctly from youth age. Many hitting coaches (ML) get undue credit when they have a few big time hitters on their squad. I have seen coaches in many sports that had a knack and knowledge to convey information in way that players could understand and use - when that coach may have never played the given sport at an upper level. The flip-side, there have been numerous MVP players that couldn't explain how to make a PB & J sandwich, much less fundamentals or mechanics of the game. They just know how to do it. There are some very smart and wise coaches here with lots of advise that I'm trying to soak in before this spring season gets going.

Agreed....

tominct

01-16-2006, 08:58 PM

Somewhere down the road you're going to figure out you were an idiot to follow Hudgens hitting advice.

So, I'm going to do you a favor and tell you right now...........you're an idiot if you follow Hudgens.

Now, move on to the guys who know what they are doing.

You can thank me now......or thank me later.

Not for nothing, but considering the tone (usually it's unfair to read tone or sarcasm into an electronic correspondence but not this time) I will draw the conclusion that you are best ignored.

tominct

01-16-2006, 09:07 PM

First I want to point something out. This is not to belittle you or try and make you look or feel stupid. It is my opinion, and most likely the opinon of most of the folks subscribing to this thread that you aren't very good at looking at a swing, and knowing what is going on. In the Chipper Jones clip, his bat head is below his hands and "in line" with the ball when the ball is probably 4 ft from him. Dave Hudgens would probably get sick seeing it. I rewatched Hudgens swing, and it is very "choppy" and slashes to the ball, and does not have the correct arc.

"Lead with the handle" What exactly do you mean by that? I believe you should start the rotation of your swing with your shoulders and hips and by doing that you will not allow your bat to "cast" away from your shoulders. By doing that my bat head will be pointing directly at the catcher when my hips are clearing. I guess that might appear as if I'm leading with the handle, but I sure don't conciously(sp) think about doint that.

I did you a favor and put together a bunch of clips to prove our point to you about "exactly" what happens, not what Hudgens "thinks" happens.

I'm posting a clip of Chippers bat below his hands, and you can see how far the ball is in front of him. Then a shot of McGuire and you can't even see the ball yet. then a picture of "Your's Truely" in camp last year. On my swing, the result was a ball crushed down the left feild line. Chippers was a long home, and I don't know about McGuires.

Thoughts?

How is it that all of you folks are EXPERTS, but the actualy MAJOR LEAGUE HITTING COACH is an idiot? Just please justify that for me. And also define for me, in words, the correct arc?

I cannot deny the shoulder-hip rotation comment you made, and I never have, it is perfectly sound. Thank you for clarifying. What say you about weight shift?

I am going to send this on to Dave and let him address the "sick seeing it" comment. Because I don't think he will. I think you, and others, misunderstand what he is teaching. But that's not to make you look or feel stupid.

PS....McGuire's was his 62nd in '98, I am guessing.

tominct

01-16-2006, 09:34 PM

Tad, I think this lies at the crux of the problem. Many parents believe that their children should be out there learning from the pros. They give little consideration to the developmental aspect of the game from a physical, emotional, intelectual and practical standpoint. As a parent we would not send an average 10 y/o child who is interested in music to an instructor at the Julliard center to learn piano, we would first send them to them to someone more talent apropriate and test their capabilities first. Yet in baseball we are easy to dismiss the good high school, Little League coaches, and middle school coaches in favor of a "pro." We're building the roof before we pour the foundation....

If I had a nickle for every 10 y/o I've seen destroyed by over zelous parents and coaches seeking the best training... They forget they're just kids. Hense the original question Do we teach 9-12 y/o's the same way we teach high school and collge players?

Jake:

In no way am I dismissive of the good local coaches, please don't attribute such comments to me. However, that being said, build a lousy foundation and you have an uninhabitable home. There are far to may lousy local and HS coaches. I played for high school coaches who never taught a thing, and my last 2 yrs in HS we were 37-5, add to that the following year (22-2) and that's a three year run of 59-7. (Class LL, we beat Rob Dibble in HS) The following year they were down, the year after that, Class LL Champions. And the coach never, not ever, discussed the mechanics of the swing or a pitchers mechanics in any meaningful way. Of course 104 guys tried out for 14 spots on my freshman team, and three players from the team my senior year played for money. One got as far as A ball, one AA and one AAA(and a forty man roster spot). In addtion our top two pitchers pitched at Yale (DI) and New Haven (DII, where the kid was MVP of the Northeast Regional). With that kind of talent, who needs to teach.

So I agree 100% in the youth and middle level coaches, and mostly with dads. However, I coach middle school and the best players I have year in and year out are the ones who take lessons....from someone getting paid, which means he is a pro, in most liberal sense of the word.

Look, I am just trying to get the best information. Honestly, I was shocked when people we dismissive of Hudgens, because I thought (and still think) that I learned a LOT from him, and I am not so quick to pull a Peyton Manning on him and throw him under the bus. Those leading the charge against him are, in my opinion being unfair and are misrepresenting what he teaches. I have passed posts from this board onto Dave and he has been quick to respond as you might well imagine. I look forward to his response to Higgendum, who also says sound things. I just don't think Dave would be in disagreement with him, that is all.

Lastly, for it is awfull y late,I mean no offense to anyone, I would appreciate the same respect is afforded me. Of course when it is not I reserve the right to respond in kind. (hence the comment in an above post)

hiddengem

01-16-2006, 10:27 PM

How is it that all of you folks are EXPERTS, but the actualy MAJOR LEAGUE HITTING COACH is an idiot? Just please justify that for me. And also define for me, in words, the correct arc?

I cannot deny the shoulder-hip rotation comment you made, and I never have, it is perfectly sound. Thank you for clarifying. What say you about weight shift?

I am going to send this on to Dave and let him address the "sick seeing it" comment. Because I don't think he will. I think you, and others, misunderstand what he is teaching. But that's not to make you look or feel stupid.

PS....McGuire's was his 62nd in '98, I am guessing.

I never said he was an idiot. I just said I didn't agree with his style of hitting and that I don't believe what he teaches actually happens with a high-level hitter. I suppose it is possible that I along with many other people have misunderstood what he is teaching but I doubt it, since he says over and over "keep the barrell of the bat above your hands until contact". I think that is pretty clear.

hiddengem

01-16-2006, 10:32 PM

And also define for me, in words, the correct arc?

This is the correct arc: When swinging the bat, the bat should be perpendcular to the spine, whatever that angle is at contact. The bat should not cast away from the shoulders but follow the rotation of the shoulders and hips. I'm not great with words, and I'm not sure if you have sceen this image before but I attached it anyway.

Ursa Major

01-17-2006, 12:23 AM

Tom, I think the general course of posts here is that people beat each other up, then find their common ground and make nice again. With some, it takes a little longer to get to that stage. Please don't think Ohfor in any way reflects the tone of the rest of us. Maybe if we do thank him as he asks, he'll leave and come back only when he has something that will help convince you as to why he's right and "someone who has coached major League MVP's" is wrong? So, we'll all try to accord you respect, and I'll just hope that it was a typo when you referred to Hiddengem as "Higgendum".

As acoach and a father of 2 young boys, I have an interest in good information, and sorry to say, I am more likely to listen to someone who has coached major League MVP's than someone who coaches HS or AAU.I was going to respond earlier but got sidetracked, and appreciate HG jumping in with the very same Chipper .jpg and the "rotating skeleton" picture I was going to post.

There's a wee fallacy in the thought here, Tom. People who have the forearm strength, work ethic and will to succeed like Brett and Boggs can take advantage of Lau's techniques. Your sons are a different story. So, I'd listen to someone like JBooth, who has produced a passel of youth all-stars, and HiddenGems, who both coaches kids and plays in the majors. Which lays the better foundation? Oddly, a linear, Hudgens approach may work for really young kids who just want to make contact. But, for those with the will to rip -- I think they're ready to go rotational. I just saw a video of Hiddengem teach a group of 7-and-unders (if I have it right), and after the session, those kids were turning and ripping like you wouldn't believe.

How does one DEFINE early in the saying that one has to get the bat in the plane of the ball early? (Perhaps I am quoting from the wrong post, but you all have read this thread)I watched the Glaus video and Chipper video among others from the site to which I previously referred, and the bat head is above the hands until just about the time when the ball reaches the plate.Where I think this misreading of the swings of Chipper and Glauss may stem from is confusion of cause-and-effect, cues, and motion. Sure, the bathead always will start "above" the hands. The problem arises when it is above the plane created by the front shoulder, front elbow, hands and bathead and which should be maintained as the swing progresses. Watch those swings, and you'll see that Chipper and Glauss keep the hands in the plane of the swing once the swing begins. The problem is thinking about (i.e., using as a cue) where the hands should "go" at all. They should be "connected" to and rotate with the back shoulder and ride with it into the ball. By so rotating, the hands almost by definition get the sweet part of the bat into the plane of the ball "automatically". It's when the hands come forward by themselves that the bathead can't move up into the proper plane in time and you get chopping or lunging.

Do you argue NOT to lead with the handle? Tom, this is entirely an issue of cues. Certainly the handle should proceed the bat into the hitting area, but that doesn't mean you should use that as a cue. While thinking of leading with the knob or handle may discourage kids from trying to push the bathead through the zone with their top hand, it again misses the point that you shouldn't be focusing on what the hand does with the knob of the bat at all. If the hands stay back and rotate with the rear shoulder and only release just before contact, the knob of necessity will be at the head of the parade, but it won't be "leading" the swing any more than a monster being chased out of town by torch and pitchfork laden townspeople is "leading" the parade. (Okay, bad analogy... but we saw Van Helsing last night and the image stuck in my head. ;) )

The real question is how you use the "double pendulum" effect to get that bathead around with us much speed as possible by centrifugal force and/or angular momentum. (JBooth, help me out with the terms here.) Pushing the knob at the ball won't do it. Thinking about rotating the hands as connected to the rear shoulder accomplishes it much better, and allows the knob to continue to rotate and, with luck, get the "fishhook" effect at the very end that really speeds the bathead. Here's a clip of a Pete Rose swing that really shows the rotation and, you'll note in the last frame, the pulling of the bat handle across his body just before contact ("the fishhook").
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/RoseBentArmButCHP.gif Because the knob goes first, you could say it "leads" the swing, but you'd be missing the whole point (and the important cues) in letting the hips, torso and shoulders drive the bathead around.

Tom, it's a fair question as to how "us" experts claim to know more than major league hitting coaches. We don't... we just claim to know more than Hudgens. (And no one called him an idiot; it was just Ohfor calling you an idiot, and we ignore his diatribes anyway, okay?) The folks who have been posting (and who I'll admit have more experience than I, so I won't include myself) are experts at teaching kids. Hiddengem and Jim Booth own their own training businesses and work successfully with kids all the time. Jake's been coaching since Dave Hudgens was in knee pants, and he has written several terrific books on coaching youth sports. And, what I find most impressive about them is that they're open to new concepts and cues and constantly trying to improve their own swings and coaching techniques.

Why does Hudgens continue to get jobs despite a lack of success? Who knows? Contacts? Hidebound attitudes? Why does Norv Turner keep getting hired as a football coach, but it took Tony Dungy way too long to get hired? Whatever the reason, it doesn't by itself make him the man to teach your boys.

And, I think if you'll open your mind to some of these ideas being tossed around, they'll start to make sense. Take a wiffle ball bat and do your Hudgens swing. Now, try a swing that emulates the skeleton's posture and style as shown above, with the bathead releasing only when the rotational forces of your hips/torso/shoulders force it away from your back shoulder. Hear the difference? That's that double pendulum effect taking advantage of the superior force generated by your rotation to really whistle that bathead around. That's nice to have when you're 45 or 50; it's even better when you have the pencil-thin arms of a nine year old.

Jake Patterson

01-17-2006, 08:19 AM

However, that being said, build a lousy foundation and you have an uninhabitable home. There are far to may lousy local and HS coaches. I played for high school coaches who never taught a thing,)

Agree on all accounts. I try to follow some of the better high school coaches and see what they are doing. In CT Tom Auclair of Thompson, John Schiffner of Plainfield and John Iovono (sp) of NFA come to mind. I feel they bring the best of all worlds together. Fanatic technicians of the game who teach kids

And the coach never, not ever, discussed the mechanics of the swing or a pitchers mechanics in any meaningful way.

The coach I replaced entire's batting class was "Get the bat from A-B and keep your face in it!" What the hell does that mean?

So I agree 100% in the youth and middle level coaches, and mostly with dads.

This was the intent of the thread. These are the target groups for my books as they are the groups that have the largest impact on the AVERAGE player.

However, I coach middle school and the best players I have year in and year out are the ones who take lessons....from someone getting paid, which means he is a pro, in most liberal sense of the word.

I agree with this. My year round players are always better. I try however, to monitor or guide who they go to. The best I have found in CT is America's Game in Waterford. Andy Walker is one of the best Pro batting instructors I have met. What I like most is his ability to train a 9 y/o as a 9 y/o. We also have a local training facility here in town that I wouldn't let a Tee Ball player go to. His classes are the same for 9 y/o's and 4th year college. Doesn't make sense to me.

Honestly, I was shocked when people we dismissive of Hudgens, because I thought (and still think) that I learned a LOT from him,
I don't know enough to form a valid opinion.

Lastly, for it is awfull y late,I mean no offense to anyone, I would appreciate the same respect is afforded me. Of course when it is not I reserve the right to respond in kind. (hence the comment in an above post)
My maxim is "He who dares to teach must never cease to learn." If you keep that attitude and treat people politely, there is much to be gain by us all here. I try to present discussion points to the thread versus strong opinions. In the battle of baseball wits with the likes of Hiddengem, Jbooth, and others - I will always more than likely lose as they are fortunate enough to do this for a living and do it well. So I sit back and learn what I can from them.

tominct

01-17-2006, 08:33 AM

Tom, I think the general course of posts here is that people beat each other up, then find their common ground and make nice again. With some, it takes a little longer to get to that stage. Please don't think Ohfor in any way reflects the tone of the rest of us. Maybe if we do thank him as he asks, he'll leave and come back only when he has something that will help convince you as to why he's right and "someone who has coached major League MVP's" is wrong? So, we'll all try to accord you respect, and I'll just hope that it was a typo when you referred to Hiddengem as "Higgendum".
I was going to respond earlier but got sidetracked, and appreciate HG jumping in with the very same Chipper .jpg and the "rotating skeleton" picture I was going to post.

There's a wee fallacy in the thought here, Tom. People who have the forearm strength, work ethic and will to succeed like Brett and Boggs can take advantage of Lau's techniques. Your sons are a different story. So, I'd listen to someone like JBooth, who has produced a passel of youth all-stars, and HiddenGems, who both coaches kids and plays in the majors. Which lays the better foundation? Oddly, a linear, Hudgens approach may work for really young kids who just want to make contact. But, for those with the will to rip -- I think they're ready to go rotational. I just saw a video of Hiddengem teach a group of 7-and-unders (if I have it right), and after the session, those kids were turning and ripping like you wouldn't believe.
Where I think this misreading of the swings of Chipper and Glauss may stem from is confusion of cause-and-effect, cues, and motion. Sure, the bathead always will start "above" the hands. The problem arises when it is above the plane created by the front shoulder, front elbow, hands and bathead and which should be maintained as the swing progresses. Watch those swings, and you'll see that Chipper and Glauss keep the hands in the plane of the swing once the swing begins. The problem is thinking about (i.e., using as a cue) where the hands should "go" at all. They should be "connected" to and rotate with the back shoulder and ride with it into the ball. By so rotating, the hands almost by definition get the sweet part of the bat into the plane of the ball "automatically". It's when the hands come forward by themselves that the bathead can't move up into the proper plane in time and you get chopping or lunging.
Tom, this is entirely an issue of cues. Certainly the handle should proceed the bat into the hitting area, but that doesn't mean you should use that as a cue. While thinking of leading with the knob or handle may discourage kids from trying to push the bathead through the zone with their top hand, it again misses the point that you shouldn't be focusing on what the hand does with the knob of the bat at all. If the hands stay back and rotate with the rear shoulder and only release just before contact, the knob of necessity will be at the head of the parade, but it won't be "leading" the swing any more than a monster being chased out of town by torch and pitchfork laden townspeople is "leading" the parade. (Okay, bad analogy... but we saw Van Helsing last night and the image stuck in my head. ;) )

The real question is how you use the "double pendulum" effect to get that bathead around with us much speed as possible by centrifugal force and/or angular momentum. (JBooth, help me out with the terms here.) Pushing the knob at the ball won't do it. Thinking about rotating the hands as connected to the rear shoulder accomplishes it much better, and allows the knob to continue to rotate and, with luck, get the "fishhook" effect at the very end that really speeds the bathead. Here's a clip of a Pete Rose swing that really shows the rotation and, you'll note in the last frame, the pulling of the bat handle across his body just before contact ("the fishhook").
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/RoseBentArmButCHP.gif Because the knob goes first, you could say it "leads" the swing, but you'd be missing the whole point (and the important cues) in letting the hips, torso and shoulders drive the bathead around.

Tom, it's a fair question as to how "us" experts claim to know more than major league hitting coaches. We don't... we just claim to know more than Hudgens. (And no one called him an idiot; it was just Ohfor calling you an idiot, and we ignore his diatribes anyway, okay?) The folks who have been posting (and who I'll admit have more experience than I, so I won't include myself) are experts at teaching kids. Hiddengem and Jim Booth own their own training businesses and work successfully with kids all the time. Jake's been coaching since Dave Hudgens was in knee pants, and he has written several terrific books on coaching youth sports. And, what I find most impressive about them is that they're open to new concepts and cues and constantly trying to improve their own swings and coaching techniques.

Why does Hudgens continue to get jobs despite a lack of success? Who knows? Contacts? Hidebound attitudes? Why does Norv Turner keep getting hired as a football coach, but it took Tony Dungy way too long to get hired? Whatever the reason, it doesn't by itself make him the man to teach your boys.

And, I think if you'll open your mind to some of these ideas being tossed around, they'll start to make sense. Take a wiffle ball bat and do your Hudgens swing. Now, try a swing that emulates the skeleton's posture and style as shown above, with the bathead releasing only when the rotational forces of your hips/torso/shoulders force it away from your back shoulder. Hear the difference? That's that double pendulum effect taking advantage of the superior force generated by your rotation to really whistle that bathead around. That's nice to have when you're 45 or 50; it's even better when you have the pencil-thin arms of a nine year old.

First, it was most certainly a typo, I didn't have the spelling in front of me and that is how I remembered it. My apologies.

Ursa, you make great sense with the rotation discussion and the clip. Your comments on cues is well taken, and I see your point quite clearly. I can see the fish hook, and quite honestly it is the first tim I have heard that alliteration, thanks, it makes good sense.

I have some questions though. How does one ensure that kids don't fly that front shoulder too early? Isn't that something with which we need to concern ourselves?

Do we have then a pull hand and a throw hand? Or are those misnomers?

Can someone discuss the importance of weight shift? I hear lots about rotation, and thats great and has been informative, I truly appreciate it, but doesn't weight shift require some discussion too?

Lastly, and then I'll let you all go, the skeleton seems to be wrapping the bat a tad. Am I being far too analytical? In the DVD series sold on ESPN "Secrets of the Major League Swing" (Should I toss this too?) He says that bat should cut through the head, but the skeleton doesnt, I realize the pioint is to show the arc,a nd thats great. Just a thought though.

Thanks everyone, I really DO appreciate it!.

Tom

Ohfor

01-17-2006, 08:40 AM

The guy with the most hits ever is right in front of you showing that the bat does not cut through the head.......but ESPN says it should.

Who the f is ESPN?

First you say "listen to mlb". Then "mlb" (video of Pete Rose) is right in front of you and you say "but ESPN says".

You are clearly not interested in the truth. You have an agenda to "confirm".

Quite a difference.

tominct

01-17-2006, 10:37 AM

[QUOTE=Jake Patterson]Agree on all accounts. I try to follow some of the better high school coaches and see what they are doing. In CT Tom Auclair of Thompson, John Schiffner of Plainfield and John Iovono (sp) of NFA come to mind. I feel they bring the best of all worlds together. Fanatic technicians of the game who teach kids

Schiffner is the Chatham A's coach as well, correct? NFA has been strong for years, I don't know about Auclair at Thompson. Down by us there are a number fo facilities. My son does a hitting league at NEBA in Seymour, low key, just want him swinging the bat during the winter ya know, keeps him with some good kids too! He doesn't take lessons there however. When I choose lessons for him I might likely go to Joe Benanto's place in Shelton. He coached Yale and before that was a high school coach at Shelton. Do you have knowledge of him?

Thanks Jake

Jake Patterson

01-17-2006, 02:16 PM

Schiffner is the Chatham A's coach as well, correct?
Yes - he is also the main character in the movie Summer Dreams. Schiffner is played by Brian Dennehy

When I choose lessons for him I might likely go to Joe Benanto's place in Shelton. He coached Yale and before that was a high school coach at Shelton. Do you have knowledge of him?

No I don't but I can ask around.

Erik

01-19-2006, 07:46 AM

bbjunkie

01-19-2006, 08:06 AM

Guys check out this clip.Is it me or does Barry drop his hands before anything happens? the lattter part of the vid shows it a little better

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds12.mpeg

It looks to me like he sort bobs down and then up as a kind of timing device. His swing begins with his hands right where they should be, level with the back shoulder.

hiddengem

01-19-2006, 08:34 AM

It looks to me like he sort bobs down and then up as a kind of timing device. His swing begins with his hands right where they should be, level with the back shoulder.

Exactly the case.

bbjunkie

01-19-2006, 08:35 AM

Sorry guys, I came in late on this thread and don't have the time now to go through the entire thread.

If it hasn't been brought up, do any of you have an opinion on the hands back hitter? I've ordered one in hopes that it will help with a bunch of 9-10 yo's I'll be coaching this year.

hiddengem

01-19-2006, 08:45 AM

I think you should stick to studying "Billiards".:lookitup

Yea, funny you mention it..today I'm working on my "Slider in the corner pocket".

Way to announce your presence with authority:rolleyes: :laugh

hiddengem

01-19-2006, 08:46 AM

bbjunkie

01-19-2006, 09:11 AM

hiddengem

01-19-2006, 08:26 PM

Hey HG, where are you these days? Did you spend much time with the Angels this past year?

BTW, I just read Money Ball. Have you read it? If so, what did you think? Is that discussed on another thread?

In a cage, either hitting or instructing:D I spent a couple weeks in Anaheim, but most of time in Salt Lake. Haven't read the book.

bbjunkie

01-20-2006, 08:51 AM

Start Reading:D

I did.

I think that, despite ohfor's hyperventilating, the hbh will be very useful in teaching the kids the soft stride and, as advertised, keeping their hands and weight back. I'm no stranger to teaching everything in baseball one step at a time to kids this age. Once they have all the pieces, they can put them together in a mighty swing. Then I'll start hurling 95 mph fast balls at them.

I wish.

I enjoyed Moneyball very much. As you probably know, it's all about Billy Beane and his novel approach to baseball with the Oakland A's. I'd be curious to know what the general perception is of the club and Beane inside baseball. Any input would be appreciated.

Should this be another thread?

tominct

01-20-2006, 09:58 AM

In a cage, either hitting or instructing:D I spent a couple weeks in Anaheim, but most of time in Salt Lake. Haven't read the book.

I Honeymooned in Salt Lake! Nov. 94.....great skiing!

hiddengem

01-20-2006, 10:15 AM

I did.

I think that, despite ohfor's hyperventilating, the hbh will be very useful in teaching the kids the soft stride and, as advertised, keeping their hands and weight back. I'm no stranger to teaching everything in baseball one step at a time to kids this age. Once they have all the pieces, they can put them together in a mighty swing. Then I'll start hurling 95 mph fast balls at them.

I wish.

I enjoyed Moneyball very much. As you probably know, it's all about Billy Beane and his novel approach to baseball with the Oakland A's. I'd be curious to know what the general perception is of the club and Beane inside baseball. Any input would be appreciated.

Should this be another thread?

Yea should probably be another thread. But I don't really know how baseball feels about him. He's a strange guy, and I've heard its his way or the highway, and its either "yes sir" or bye bye. He's pissed alot of people off in the draft room, telling scouts they don't know what they are talking about, and if I'm not mistaken doesn't like scouts really and doesn't see a huge need for them..could be wrong on that one.

hiddengem

01-20-2006, 10:16 AM

I Honeymooned in Salt Lake! Nov. 94.....great skiing!

Did you ever get my PM?

bbjunkie

01-20-2006, 11:51 AM

Yea should probably be another thread. But I don't really know how baseball feels about him. He's a strange guy, and I've heard its his way or the highway, and its either "yes sir" or bye bye. He's pissed alot of people off in the draft room, telling scouts they don't know what they are talking about, and if I'm not mistaken doesn't like scouts really and doesn't see a huge need for them..could be wrong on that one.

I assumed he pissed off scouts. He thinks they look for all the wrong attributes in draftees, free agents and possible trades. He trusts stats, most especially OBP and slugging %. Hates stealing.

tominct

01-20-2006, 05:34 PM

I assumed he pissed off scouts. He thinks they look for all the wrong attributes in draftees, free agents and possible trades. He trusts stats, most especially OBP and slugging %. Hates stealing.

Hard core numbers guy isn't he? Isn't Theo Epstein the same way? Isn't there a difference between scouting a draftee, and something like an advance scout, one who scouts other major league teams for potential trade possibilities, or for competitive purposes? Correct me here If I am off base, becasue this is REALLY beyond my scope.

Tom

MSandman

01-20-2006, 05:49 PM

HI,
I would like to say that the Instructo Swing 5000 is a very useful training device. This post sounds like a post that the "Teacherman" got his hands on. I would like people to take a look at this product. This product will help develop a high level swing. I would also like to hear what high level swing wouldn't fit through this product. I question your understanding of the subject of hitting. I think you should stick to studying "Billiards".:lookitup

Erik, www.Instructoswing.com or www.Tedwilliamsswing.com

At your suggestion Erik, I did "take a look". If the product allows one to think they've executed a "high level swing" at a thigh-high pitch w/ such upright posture, I'm a bit skeptical. :rolleyes:

Note: In the 3rd frame of these comparisons, I've estimated (using V1 Home ed.) Barry's spine angle to be ~46 degrees and the InstructoSwinger's at less than half that - on pitches of similar height.

I apologize for the "unregistered version" text across the InstructoSwinger. I don't have any software to convert Windows Media files to AVIs, so I downloaded one. :o

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Instructo%20Swing%20vs.%20Barry.jpg

Here's another way to look at the posture... Barry gets his spine angle to ~90 degrees to the bat (87); InstructoSwinger is barely at 65.
http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Instructo%20Swing%20vs.%20Barry%20-%20perpendicular.jpg

hiddengem

01-20-2006, 08:46 PM

At your suggestion Erik, I did "take a look". If the product allows one to think they've executed a "high level swing" at a thigh-high pitch w/ such upright posture, I'm a bit skeptical. :rolleyes:

Note: In the 3rd frame of these comparisons, I've estimated (using V1 Home ed.) Barry's spine angle to be ~46 degrees and the InstructoSwinger's at less than half that - on pitches of similar height.

I apologize for the "unregistered version" text across the InstructoSwinger. I don't have any software to convert Windows Media files to AVIs, so I downloaded one. :o

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Instructo%20Swing%20vs.%20Barry.jpg

Here's another way to look at the posture... Barry gets his spine angle to ~90 degrees to the bat (87); InstructoSwinger is barely at 65.
http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Instructo%20Swing%20vs.%20Barry%20-%20perpendicular.jpg

I guess the question is; Would we be able to get into the proper position using this trainer? This kid doesn't have the best mechanics in the world, but if Barry were using this or a teacher that understands the swing were using it, would it be useful?

hit-it-hard

01-20-2006, 08:50 PM

At your suggestion Erik, I did "take a look". If the product allows one to think they've executed a "high level swing" at a thigh-high pitch w/ such upright posture, I'm a bit skeptical. :rolleyes:

Note: In the 3rd frame of these comparisons, I've estimated (using V1 Home ed.) Barry's spine angle to be ~46 degrees and the InstructoSwinger's at less than half that - on pitches of similar height.

I apologize for the "unregistered version" text across the InstructoSwinger. I don't have any software to convert Windows Media files to AVIs, so I downloaded one. :o

Here's another way to look at the posture... Barry gets his spine angle to ~90 degrees to the bat (87); InstructoSwinger is barely at 65.

Good analysis MSandman. The designer of this product clearly does not know how a high level hitter sets the swing plane. The various angle adjusments shown here (http://www.instructoswing.com/img/morePics/5000_morepics.jpg) (gotta love the one on the bottom right) make that abundantly clear.

I noticed the marketing blurbs seem to try to be riding the "rotational" swing bandwagon. And yet the product does not provide any specific help with regard to improving either rotation or connection - two of the most important parts of any "rotational" swing system.

Also noticed the kids in the demos I viewed show rather severe cases of bat drag... and the product clearly doesn't provide any mechanism to help avoid it.

It's certainly not alone in swing devices that really don't improve the swing, but it would be pretty high on my list of items to avoid.

Ohfor

01-20-2006, 09:30 PM

HI,
I would also like to hear what high level swing wouldn't fit through this product.

Well, considering you can set it at all the different settings, I'd have to say all swings will fit through it. Good ones and bad ones.

Which makes it worthless.

hit-it-hard

01-20-2006, 09:41 PM

I guess the question is; Would we be able to get into the proper position using this trainer? This kid doesn't have the best mechanics in the world, but if Barry were using this or a teacher that understands the swing were using it, would it be useful?

HG, not sure if that is the question or not. :) I think you or others who understand the swing plane, might could set it up to where a high level swing would go through it. However...

Most parents/coaches won't set it up for a proper swing plane. And judging from the video clips & images on the web site, I'll bet the instructions give bad advice on how to set the device up to ensure proper swing plane. (Pretty much guaranteed for some of the some set ups such as the upper cut plane which requires an improper swing plane for anyone to get through the device.)

And as Ohfor said, almost any swing can get through that thing depending on how it's set up. I would go further and say that even when set up properly, misaligned/setup swing planes can still get through it.

hiddengem

01-20-2006, 09:44 PM

HG, not sure if that is the question or not. :) I think you or others who understand the swing plane, might could set it up to where a high level swing would go through it. However...

Most parents/coaches won't set it up for a proper swing plane. And judging from the video clips & images on the web site, I'll bet the instructions give bad advice on how to set the device up to ensure proper swing plane. (Pretty much guaranteed for some of the some set ups such as the upper cut plane which requires an improper swing plane for anyone to get through the device.)

And as Ohfor said, almost any swing can get through that thing depending on how it's set up.

I agree 100%. and I didn't realize that the thing was adjustable to give you a "bad" swing. Why the heck did they do that?

MSandman

01-21-2006, 06:52 AM

I guess the question is; Would we be able to get into the proper position using this trainer? This kid doesn't have the best mechanics in the world, but if Barry were using this or a teacher that understands the swing were using it, would it be useful?

Good point HG. My point is that, if Erik is going to promote the product as "helping to promote a high level swing", then perhaps he should have someone who HAS a high level swing demonstrate it. That would answer your question, as well as add some credibility.

However, even if Barry could swing through the product, that still wouldn't mean that using the product GAVE him that swing (and in Barry's case, we know that he didn't achieve his swing using this product).

I guess the only real way to know if a product contributed to someone's development would be to see some "before and after" clips. Short of that, I guess I might more believe a product's claim watching a good swing than a poor one. It doesn't necessarily mean the hitter got that way by using the product, but at least I wouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction to it and think, "I sure don't want to swing like THAT!" ;)

hiddengem

01-21-2006, 07:23 AM

Good point HG. My point is that, if Erik is going to promote the product as "helping to promote a high level swing", then perhaps he should have someone who HAS a high level swing demonstrate it. That would answer your question, as well as add some credibility.

However, even if Barry could swing through the product, that still wouldn't mean that using the product GAVE him that swing (and in Barry's case, we know that he didn't achieve his swing using this product).

I guess the only real way to know if a product contributed to someone's development would be to see some "before and after" clips. Short of that, I guess I might more believe a product's claim watching a good swing than a poor one. It doesn't necessarily mean the hitter got that way by using the product, but at least I wouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction to it and think, "I sure don't want to swing like THAT!" ;)

Well if they would go back and redesign the product so that it would ONLY stay in the position we see the kid in the video using it would be better. Then at least it would help kids to understand that you don't swing down through the ball but rather let the bat follow you back shoulder.

Would this trainer then create a pefect swing? Absolutely not, no trainer will. But I think its very tough sometimes to get a kid to understand that its ok to have a swing that goes slightly up through the ball at contact, and this might help them get that feeling and then you can move on to more finer points in a swing.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

Jake Patterson

01-21-2006, 07:26 AM

Good point HG. "helping to promote a high level swing
Going back to the intent of the thread for a momment...
Do you guys feel that this devise (If set up properly) would help a nine year old with no experience?

MSandman

01-21-2006, 08:52 AM

Going back to the intent of the thread for a momment...
Do you guys feel that this devise (If set up properly) would help a nine year old with no experience?

IMO, not really. The video shown, as far as I can tell, HAS the device setup on the upward swing plane. Yet the hitter still exhibits extremely upright posture, which is not good. I'd imagine that a number of swing flaws could be present yet a hitter could still "navigate" a bat through the device.

My 2 cents.

hiddengem

01-21-2006, 10:17 AM

IMO, not really. The video shown, as far as I can tell, HAS the device setup on the upward swing plane. Yet the hitter still exhibits extremely upright posture, which is not good. I'd imagine that a number of swing flaws could be present yet a hitter could still "navigate" a bat through the device.

My 2 cents.

IMO it could. The fact that the kid in the video doesn't know how to swing the bat doesn't mean anything to me. A good instructor could get the kid in the right position and then none of would be talking about it.

Heck, I could put down a regular T, and the kid in this video would probably take the same swing. I would like to use this for my young kids that have been taught to "swing down" on the ball all of their lives. Or the kid that is just getting a swing "Branded" into his muscle memory.

My 2 cents.

MSandman

01-21-2006, 12:06 PM

Well, maybe I misunderstood Jake's question:
Do you guys feel that this devise (If set up properly) would help a nine year old with no experience?

I interpreted that (the "with no experience" part especially) as asking if setting a 9YO up on this device and letting him swing through it would help him improve his swing.

If it still requires "a good instructor to get the kid in the right position" then the device isn't causing the hitter to swing the bat on the proper plane as much as the instructor, is it? Is it even really reinforcing that he did (because he doesn't bang the rails)? I don't think so, because the kid in the demo video swings from an upright posture, yet still managed not to bang the rails. :crazy

Do we agree that the video clip appears to have the device setup on the UPswing plane? If so, then IMO, it's going to take some good instruction beyond just letting a kid hit, or else they are quite likely to swing the bat just like the kid in this video (or a myriad of other ways perhaps). And if you (or anyone) possesses the ability to get a kid to swing from the proper posture, then why would you need this device?

tadlock11

01-21-2006, 01:26 PM

I just sat through about 6 hours of LL try-outs (10-12 YO's). Probably a good 130-150 kids that hit and perhaps a dozen at the most that really were impressive. Hoping that most have just picked up a bat from the off season and need a little tune-up. Then again there were some that are sand bagging for coaches, but that's a different catagory all together. I guess you guys that are pros will be hearing more from us youth coaches as we get our teams this spring and encounter all different kinds of problems :eek: and a little :grouchy

hit-it-hard

01-21-2006, 02:21 PM

My opinion...

You cannot insure a proper swing plane when the product is adjusted to be slightly angled up or to a level setting (bottom and top right in photos). You probably can use a proper swing plane when the product is adjusted like this (slightly up or to a level setting), though the hitter can just as easily drop the hands to improperly set the swing plane. In fact, I think that is exactly what these two settings tend to cause.

You can insure a proper swing plane with the level setting only if the tee is set chest high (if it adjusts that high).

I don't think you can even use a proper swing plane when the product is adjusted to be angled down (bottom left). It may be okay initially, however at contact the the hitter will be swinging down to miss the tubes. This angle is likely to lead to the improper "shoulders level" and the "arms swinging downward" mechanics.

So while I think getting feedback by banging the tubes could be a good thing, none of the adjustments seem to really enforce a proper swing plane. Considering the price of this thing, the unlikelihood of setting up correctly, and that it really doesn't help much if any with the swing plane anyway, I still say avoid it.

http://www.instructoswing.com/img/morePics/5000_morepics.jpg

Proper swing plane.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/animations/cd102_Momentum_lr.gif

(Edited to fix 2 typos which reversed meaning and add italics to hopefully clarify things.)

hiddengem

01-21-2006, 02:23 PM

Do we agree that the video clip appears to have the device setup on the UPswing plane? If so, then IMO, it's going to take some good instruction beyond just letting a kid hit, or else they are quite likely to swing the bat just like the kid in this video (or a myriad of other ways perhaps). And if you (or anyone) possesses the ability to get a kid to swing from the proper posture, then why would you need this device?

Listen, if you are trying to get a kid to swing like Barry Bonds, then I don't care what kind of training gadget you have, you will need a high quality instructor to show him many things. If a kid has a severe "chop" or down swing, and this trainer is setup at the right angle, it will at least get him on the right page as far as a swing plane.

If I have a kid come into my facility that has a bad chop and I throw him in this trainer like this picture and let him bang the rails a few times, he's going to get the idea, THEN we can move forward to posture, tilt ect.

tadlock11

01-21-2006, 02:41 PM

HG- what are the pro's and con's of having a youth player do one-handed hitting drills?

Erik

01-21-2006, 04:33 PM

Hi,
I would like to know which one of you guys have tried this new device out? I assume you have tested your beliefs and ideas out with this product to properly give your evaluation or you just suppress things to sound scientific on the subject. I find this behavior a common problem that has been known to form fixed ideas and hinder others. I think you will learn through time that this product has been designed off of peoples wants and needs. The physics that are involved in this new device are supported by what the best believe. I came on this forum not to create a problem just to confront some false data on this product. The kid in this video happens to be one of the top hitters at 14 yrs of age in Cincinnati. I have trained this kid for yrs. I like his numbers 550 batting avg, 10 HR's, 25 2B, large slugging . I do have a back ground as a player and Instructor. I have worked with a number of big leauge ball players. I would also like to let some of you know or give you a reality factor that a high level swing will indeed fit through this device, and can be developed with this device. Why did I make this device capable of being used other ways? I have learned that hitters don't always get into the best hitting position at times and some approaches that aren't ideal get applied for hit's. There is more than one way to skin a cat in this subject. The only way you can determine whether this training device is useful or not is by training with it. I guess if one doesn't want to acknowledge the product and that's your goal does it really matter. I gaurantee you can fit the type of swing that you would teach through this device . The different swing approaches that are applied in hitting are up, level, and down. I think sometimes we get caught up in the mechanics of the swing and the body so much that we forget that it's about hit's. I'm sure that some are going to read this the way they want and look only to suppress for their own amusement. I am established and interested in the development of hitters. I understand what causes a ground ball, line drive, and fly ball that carries. I will leave the negative approaches to things to the ones that specialize in this area. The proof is in the effect . The Instructo Swing will develop proper swing path angles. What the body does becomes a habit after use with this product . Having an Instructor while developing your swing with this product is always helpful.

Erik,

hiddengem

01-21-2006, 05:28 PM

HG- what are the pro's and con's of having a youth player do one-handed hitting drills?

I like doing the one handed drill with the bottom hand, because it stresses how "Rotation" starts the swing, not the arms. If you just leave the bat resting on the outside of the back shoulder and turn, the arms and hands will take over when they need to.

hiddengem

01-21-2006, 05:31 PM

Erik

01-21-2006, 07:11 PM

Hi,
The only thing I don't understand about your design is why you added the "Down angle" and the "level" angle to the trainer. The only time that bat should be horizontal to the ground is if the batter is hitting a shoulder high pitch. And the "Down Angle" should be nonexistant in my opinion.

The device when I first developed it back in 1992 was created to assist the hitter to focus on top/middle part of the ball. The downward path at the time was being promoted in my organization which was the Boston Red Sox. I also grew up and trained with Pete Rose and other top notch big leauge players and instructors. I was always a good hitter with the bat speed and hit for high average. The downward, level, and upward swing path can be argued by many to be ideal. I can say that I have used all three swings at different times throughout my career and have had success in certain situations. I can also say that hitters apply different swing paths that can and will produce base hits. when I created this new device a lot of thought was taken in consideration. On the first model the complaint was the swing path needs to be more level. Then the next complaint was it needs to have an upward swing path. I think you can see that now this device can be useful to what ever hitting approach is wanted and needed. I see some people like to force their reality on others. I haven't been successful as an instructor with this behavior. I have taken what I have learned and believe me, I have tried it all as a player and have seen other big time hitters apply all three swing angles and produce. I use this device to help resolve problems and develope a better swing. I will take the Sandmans advice and I will get some clips of what you all call high level swings to show this device promotes this. I would like to know how many of you have played professional baseball? I would also like to know how many batting titles that you have? I have had 6 batting titles throughout my 11 yr "payed" playing career. The kid that was in the video clip that was using the device hit that ball 275 ft over a 30 ft wall, not bad for a stationary object in my opinon.

Erik,

Ohfor

01-21-2006, 07:29 PM

... I'm sure that some are going to read this the way they want ...

The only ray of truth in the entire statement.

Ohfor

01-21-2006, 07:38 PM

I can say that I have used all three swings at different times throughout my career and have had success in certain situations.

Which part, the little league part.

when I created this new device a lot of thought was taken in consideration.

Yeah, like how much money can I make.

On the first model the complaint was the swing path needs to be more level. Then the next complaint was it needs to have an upward swing path.

Because you know nothing about hitting.

I think you can see that now this device can be useful to what ever hitting approach is wanted and needed.

Including all BAD/WRONG APPROACHES. It teaches nothing. No different than a T. If a player or dad can set it where ever he wants............what good is it.

I think you're up to your ass in debt and need to sell to recover your investment. Who cares how many kids you hurt.

Jake Patterson

01-21-2006, 07:39 PM

I found this:
4915

Erik, first of all I am not a pro... Coach HS and have had a bunch of my former players play college ball and beyond. Do not consider myself an expert....

With that being said. It seems with the picture above, the devise is set for an upward swing. The example swing does look like it is starting down and will finish up without the bat hitting either arm. Not too sure about his back foot, but he is hitting the ball out front, hand up, hand down and seems to have good rotation. I wish I had the technology to super impose HG's skeleton over this devise. Thoughts??

Erik

01-21-2006, 08:12 PM

oh40 or Richard,
how is the pool hall "Huckster"? I see you are full of fear my friend. I don't see a back ground in baseball from you . I would say by seeing your swing from setpro which I saved for my collection. I would say you my friend don't know what it takes to become a professional hitter. I haven't seen you produce any background. I know you and your boy Nyman are engaged in the same old tactic force your ideas down peoples throat and invaladation is your weapon of choice.. I can say that I faced Randy Johnson and I produced with hit's. I don't think you want to go there. I think you should stick to the "billiards". I"m bored with your false data.

Erik,

Jake Patterson

01-21-2006, 08:18 PM

oh40 or Richard,
I don't see a back ground in baseball from you.

Not again....

Erik

01-21-2006, 08:33 PM

Jake,
I just have a problem with some negative people like "Ohfor".

Erik,

MSandman

01-21-2006, 09:37 PM

The kid in this video happens to be one of the top hitters at 14 yrs of age in Cincinnati.

And I'd bet his game swings don't look anything like the one in the demo.

Erik, I'm really not trying to be vicious; I'm just trying to provide some input. I know you've done very well w/ your product and that's good. And maybe the product's even been personally helpful to you in your career. But I doubt it GAVE you the swing you have (or the one the Cincy kid has in a game), and I doubt it would GIVE a 9YO a quality swing w/o some good guidance. And if he has that guidance, he could just as easily use a normal tee, IMO.

Good luck and continued success,
Sandman

Ohfor

01-21-2006, 09:59 PM

Your actions (the device and your selling of the device as a teaching device, when it is absolutely worthless) speaks so loud I can't hear what you say.

Ursa Major

01-21-2006, 11:50 PM

Well, we found someone who can give Ohfor a run for his money on the negativity front. :cool:

Anyway, I like to look at any product or technique and immediately ask, "Can I use this to help a kid, even if temporarily?" Jake specifically asked about its possible use for a nine year old. I think there are few whom it would help more than hurt, and certainly would not help enougy to justify lugging it around, much less paying real money for it.

As noted by others, no matter how you set it, it would seem to allow a lot of bad swing techniques. Kids would still drop their back shoulders and swoop and exhibit bat drag; indeed, it would almost encourage it to make sure the bat followed the right plane. What it does it treat the symptom rather than get to the core problem of bat path. A decent coach can tell when a kid's path is off; if he sends the kid off alone with the device as a "check" on his progress, the kid could be exacerbating all these other problems just to avoid alerting the kid to the clunking.

And, a big problem precisely with even good nine year olds is that they slow the bat down just before contact to "aim" the bathead at the ball, which is why you see so few pull hitters at that age. Having this device that only Torquemada* would love would seem to exacerbate the tendency as kids try to steer their bathead through the channle.

(*=torturer/"confessor" during the Spanish Inquisition)

HG- what are the pro's and con's of having a youth player do one-handed hitting drills?I'm coming to think that they are a truly elegant way for kids to learn to rely on their rotation, as only the centrifugal force of the body will move the bat around. If the kid tries to use his hand too early, the side of his hand will feel the ache.

I noticed that Cal Ripken, no particular advocate of rotational mechanics, espouses in his book on youth baseball using the bottom hand drill about a third of the time during a tee session. (Say, five swings solely with the bottom hand and ten using both hands.)

Because the bathead will droop for young kids, I see nothing wrong during the drill with allowing the kid to use his back elbow to support the bottom hand during the swing, so long as it doesn't push the bottom arm forward. Another possible technique is to let the kid hold his top hand loosely cupped under the bottom hand to support it, but not clench the fingers such that they might push the bottom hand or the bathead forward. This has the advantage of keeping the top hand in the location and posture which will ultimately be used in the swing. So, you can see if he's keeping his top hand arm in the "power L" position at contact.

Erik

01-22-2006, 05:21 AM

Erik

01-22-2006, 05:29 AM

MSandman

01-22-2006, 06:35 AM

Hi Sandman,

and I doubt it would GIVE a 9YO a quality swing w/o some good guidance. And if he has that guidance, he could just as easily use a normal tee, IMO.

A normal tee wouldn't give instant feedback if a player has a wrong swing this device does. I see that most really don't know what this product can do for you . I see that there is a lot of misunderstanding of this product. How can you judge something you really haven't spent time with? :confused:

Erik

Erik,

I'm not saying that a normal tee by itself would give a 9YO any better swing than your device. Rather, that BOTH require good instruction by someone knowledgeable enough to know that a "high quality swing" is not from an almost totally-upright posture (at least not at a thigh-high pitch). Yes, I agree that your device will at least warn someone that their swing path is off, but I can't see how it would warn them if they were using an inefficient swing plane (as evidenced by your demo)??? :ughh

MSandman

01-22-2006, 06:52 AM

Ursa Major,

Well, we found someone who can give Ohfor a run for his money on the negativity front.

Please Ohfor is the Master . This device will work for all ages . Why are the big league organizations buying this product? I guess it's for the bat boys. I see that there is a lot of fixed ideas about developing hitters .

Erik

I'm sure it does "work" for some pro hitters, but WHY? When one of them bangs a rail, does the device tell or remind them to "get better posture"? What I mean is that to someone who already understands the posture necessary for an efficient swing, then a gentle reminder is probably enough for them to say "darn, I need to get better posture so I don't hit the rail again". OTOH, to someone who has not spent years honing a high-level swing and maybe doesn't understand posture yet, their reaction to hitting the rail might just cause them to manipulate the bat through on a different path, using the same faulty posture.

So does your device have merit? Probably. But IMO, probably more as a guard "rail" (pun intended ;)) for someone who already knows what needs to be done. But I still don't think any 9YO (or 14YO for that matter) is going to necessarily be guided to developing better posture if not under the instruction of a good instructor (i.e. just some well-meaning but inexperienced parent).

Now, if what you're really suggesting (by telling us that the Cincy 14YO was hitting balls over 275' off this) is that "upright posture using the arms to guide the bat on an upward swing path is just as efficient a way to swing the bat as bending over from the waist and trying to get the bat 90 degrees to the spine angle", then maybe that's the main contributor to our misunderstanding.

Again, all I'm trying to do is respond to Jake's question about the ability of the device to help an inexperienced 9YO. IMO, the fact that MLB players can gain some benefit from the device has little bearing on what an inexperienced 9YO can gain from it. One is using it as a gentle reminder; the other is trying to use it to learn how to swing.

hiddengem

01-22-2006, 09:01 AM

Erik,

I'm not saying that a normal tee by itself would give a 9YO any better swing than your device. Rather, that BOTH require good instruction by someone knowledgeable enough to know that a "high quality swing" is not from an almost totally-upright posture (at least not at a thigh-high pitch). Yes, I agree that your device will at least warn someone that their swing path is off, but I can't see how it would warn them if they were using an inefficient swing plane (as evidenced by your demo)??? :ughh

Ok, MS. What if a kid can't afford a professional instruction lesson? or doesn't have access to somebody like Erik or I to sit there and watch him swing to make sure he has the righ posture, tilt, ect. Don't you think this device(in the upward angle only) will at least get him on the right track as far as a swing path is concerned? Much better than just a regular T in my opinon.
Thoughts?

hit-it-hard

01-22-2006, 09:44 AM

Ok, MS. What if a kid can't afford a professional instruction lesson? or doesn't have access to somebody like Erik or I to sit there and watch him swing to make sure he has the righ posture, tilt, ect. Don't you think this device(in the upward angle only) will at least get him on the right track as far as a swing path is concerned? Much better than just a regular T in my opinon.
Thoughts?

The 5000 model is $180 + shipping and tax. Not sure what Englishbey sells his DVD for but they're probably in the same ballpark in price. I know which one I would buy.

john

tadlock11

01-22-2006, 10:14 AM

Okay I've got more Q's now - first off, I've been hearing the term "scap" loading is this referring to the scapula? When a hitter loads by turing shoulders rather than hips?
When watching my players (YOUTH) I've watched their lead elbow as a cue, now I'm curious to what other "cues" or indicators I can watch for to determine flaws in their swing. So that you can tell me if I'm right or wrong, here is what I have been doing in the past-
watching front foot to make sure it doesn't open past about 45 degree angle and therefore throwing the hips and shoulders out early. Making sure they follow the ball with their eyes through connection. At connection, seeing if their belt buckle and knee are pointing back at the pitcher and then on the follow through, wrapping the bat and making sure they are not on their heels. I would like to know if I'm wrong on any of these, what other things to look cue me in on and tendancies of hitters when they have committed some type of error. Thanks.

MSandman

01-22-2006, 10:59 AM

Don't you think this device(in the upward angle only) will at least get him on the right track as far as a swing path is concerned?

Yes, and I believe I said that:
I agree that your device will at least warn someone that their swing path is off... So yes, this product can probably help improve a down-chopper's swing path. But IMO, that's addressing a symptom and not the real problem.

We're now beating a dead horse, as I think I've been pretty clear on why I think path alone is not sufficient to produce a "high quality swing" (because you can get the bat on that path in many ways). :ughh

One last analogy: a tetherball. If the axis (the pole) is vertical and stationary, then to make the ball hit an imaginary point that's about 45 degrees down, you could simply spin the ball around the pole at a 45 degree angle. Now I'm certainly no physics major, but I just don't think that's going to generate as much power/force/speed as if you could tilt the pole to 45 degrees, then spin the ball perpendicularly around the tilted pole.

I know one thing for sure: I don't want MY players swinging like the 14YO did in the demo. Notice that I did not say "like the 14YO does" because I seriously doubt his game swing at a thigh-high pitch displays the same posture AND yields the success you say he's had. If it did, I'd venture a guess that he can mash inside pitches, but not have oppo gap power on middle/away pitches.

Time to bury this horse yet? :crazy

MSandman

01-22-2006, 02:44 PM

jbooth

01-22-2006, 04:09 PM

One last analogy: a tetherball. If the axis (the pole) is vertical and stationary, then to make the ball hit an imaginary point that's about 45 degrees down, you could simply spin the ball around the pole at a 45 degree angle. Now I'm certainly no physics major, but I just don't think that's going to generate as much power/force/speed as if you could tilt the pole to 45 degrees, then spin the ball perpendicularly around the tilted pole.

In your example above, the angle of the ball and the pole has almost nothing to do with the speed at which the ball can rotate.

Keeping "the box" perpendicular to your spine has more to do with getting the bat to hit the ball in the center and on the same plane, it has little to do with the power or velocity of the bathead. That is why the kid in the picture supposedly knocked that ball a long way. The velocity in the bathead is not related to the angle of his spine, it's related to how well he rotated his body.

In a real game, if he had that posture and angle of spine and arms, he MIGHT not contact the pitched ball, but if he did (as he did in the video) he can hit it just as far.

Now, if you get too far off perpendicular and you disconnect the box, the bathead velocity can be affected.

Golfers don't swing perpendicular and they hit the ball pretty well.

Many HR's are hit without the bat being exactly perpendicular to the spine. It doesn't have to be that precise.

There are an infinite number of variables in a swing that make it impossible for even physics PhD's to precisely measure the effects of the various movements, but one fundamental fact is true without question; the velocity of the sweet spot, at contact with the ball, affects how far the ball goes. Maximum acceleration and velocity in the bathead is achieved in a swing, by accelerating the KNOB to maximum velocity, while moving it in a short-radius arc, which achieves maximum angular momentum, which accelerates the bathead.

The short version; keep your hands close to your body and rotate your body as fast as you can, and don't let the hands move out of an arc, or increase the radius of the arc.