Never Teach your Catchers to Frame Pitches!!

[Catchingcoach]

People are surprised to see an article written by a catching coach with this title. I am actually not opposed to framing when done correctly. I avoid using the term when instructing my students due to the misinformation out there about what it actually is.

I advocate using techniques that keep strikes looking like strikes. I see so many students come for instruction with the idea that “Framing” is a technique that will fool an umpire into thinking a pitch that is a ball is really a strike. I ask all new students what they believe framing does, and that is almost always their answer, regardless of the age of the catcher.
This technique is widely used and I believe actually contribute to close strikes being called as balls.

I will explain my position on “Framing” by explaining the 4 Laws of Good Receiving that I teach all my students.

I explain to my students that they need to go behind the plate with these 4 laws firmly imbedded in their technique to be the best receivers they can be.

Law #1 “The Catcher Must View Each Pitch Through the Umpire’s Eyes”

For a catcher to excel behind the plate he must view each pitch as the umpire sees it. I teach my students to have a 2nd view on the game in their minds eye. The first is of course the view of the whole field. The 2nd is the view that the umpire sees when he looks down toward home plate to make the call. He sees the back of the catcher as well as the ball, plate, and batter.

When a catcher develops this view of the game, he will realize how much he can affect the “look” the umpire gets at the pitch as it crosses the plate. He will understand how he can make a tight, good strike look like a pitch that is off the plate and not worthy of being called a strike.

A catcher needs to learn that there is a short period of time that while the umpire is tracking the ball with his eyes that the catcher is out of his direct line of sight. This occurs when the umpires has his eyes focused on the ball leaving the pitchers hands and continues tracking it until just in front of the plate. For that brief moment the catcher is below the umpire’s direct line of sight. It is during this short time that the catcher needs to get properly positioned to receive the pitch.


Law #2 “ It’s a Catcher’s Job to Keep Strikes Looking like Strikes”
This is where my teaching tends to go against the flow a little. I do not want to see my catchers catching a pitch that clearly is a ball and pulling, pushing, or somehow moving the glove to try and reposition the pitch at a spot they feel will get them a strike call. I don’t want them trying to “Make a ball look like a strike”. The best way to keep a strike looking like a strike is to never do anything that would make it look like a ball. The next 2 Laws discuss ways to accomplish that.


Law# 3 “Beat the Ball to The Spot”

My goal for my catchers is that their movements behind the plate when they receive are smooth, “quiet”, quick but not hurried.
They set the target with their glove in the middle of their body. The goal is to have adjusted their position so that their glove is in position to catch the ball before the ball gets there. They want their glove to “Beat the Ball to the Spot.”
This is accomplished as follows.
• Their feet are turned up the lines.
• Their heels are in contact with the ground as well as the balls of their feet.

This makes it easy for them to receive any pitch that catches even the edge of the plate by shifting their weight that direction. They still keep the glove in the middle of their body. They can avoid “reaching” for pitches using this technique. When shifting their weight toward the ball they are able to keep their shoulders level at all times. The look they present to the umpire is one of control, and one that says that this pitch is being caught on the catcher’s midline, it must be a strike.

Often times a catcher doesn’t shift his weight and reaches for the ball on the outside of the plate, even though it may be a close strike, by reaching at the last minute the message sent is that this pitch is not where the catcher wanted it and you may lose the strike call. Have the catcher get the glove to the contact point ahead of the ball. If a catchers glove shoots out and meets a fastball while both objects are moving the ball will usually win the battle and pull the glove off the plate.

This technique is done in addition to proper handling of the glove to assure that all parts of the glove are in the strike zone when the ball is caught.
Imagine a catcher catches a ball on the inside edge to a right-hander, and has his thumb in the 6-o'clock position when the ball hits it. To make that catch he will have to allow his left elbow to go to the left to get the glove in position. His elbow will now be nearly a foot left of the edge of the strike zone. Also, over half of the glove will be to the left of the strike zone. So even if the ball is cleanly a strike, all kinds of signals are being sent that this pitch is too far inside.

If the catcher makes a few subtle changes he will ensure that he isn’t doing anything to make this strike look like a ball.

First he sets up with his thumb set at 3-o'clock. This positions his elbow to bend down, not out to the left. He shifts his weight to the left, and positions his glove to catch the left half of the ball. His hand rotates slightly so his thumb is between 12 and 1 o'clock. The ball flies past the front edge of the glove and is caught in the back half of the pocket. The back edge of the glove is vertical, so no part of the glove is out of the strike zone. Since the elbow bent down, no part of the left arm is out of the strike zone. We have caught a close strike and did nothing to make it look like a ball.

Law#4 “The Glove Never Moves After the Ball Hits It”

One of the main techniques that many players think is part of good receiving is moving the glove after the ball hits it to a spot that will more likely get them the strike call. I have always felt that most of the technique is insulting to the umpire. He can hear the ball hit the glove, so what’s the point to drag or pull the ball somewhere it wasn’t. I teach that if the technique I have described above is employed then you will maximize your strike calls and build a better relationship with the umpire by not trying to move a pitch after it hits the glove.


In Conclusion: I don’t teach framing. I teach good sound receiving. Just be concerned with keeping strikes looking like strikes and you will succeed as a catcher.

[Ursa Major]

Some good tips in there, Coach. Of course, a lot depends upon the caliber of ball and umpiring you're dealing with. In youth ball, I think it's correct that catchers lose more strikes by taking the ball out of the strike xone than they gain by framing. And, with good umpiring at any level, you just insult the umpire by trying to frame every pitch. I think the additional advantage of holding the glove still for a moment (but not so long that it looks like you're dissing the ump) is that it gives the umpire a chance to process the pitch, particularly if it's had some movement on it and he's trying to assess if it passed through the strike zone during its path. Nice contribution.

[Jake Patterson]

Hey coach,
Some pretty good stuff here. Would not mind handing this out at our Little League Coaches' Clinic, under your name of course. We're always weak in the catching area. If interested let me know and we can get in a format that would insure you get the right recognition and citations. Like I said when we talked, you're not that far from us you may develop several new customers.

[tominct]

Hey coach,
Some pretty good stuff here. Would not mind handing this out at our Little League Coaches' Clinic, under your name of course. We're always weak in the catching area. If interested let me know and we can get in a format that would insure you get the right recognition and citations. Like I said when we talked, you're not that far from us you may develop several new customers.

Jake, do you have an email address? I wouldn't mind contacting you about how you go about conductioing your League's Clinics. Tha's part of my charge where I am as well and I could use the insight.

Thanks,
Tom

[Jake Patterson]

Jake, do you have an email address? I wouldn't mind contacting you about how you go about conductioing your League's Clinics. Tha's part of my charge where I am as well and I could use the insight.

Thanks,
Tom
pattersonsports@yahoo.com we have one coming up on March 18th

[Bluesteve32]

Some good tips in there, Coach. Of course, a lot depends upon the caliber of ball and umpiring you're dealing with. In youth ball, I think it's correct that catchers lose more strikes by taking the ball out of the strike xone than they gain by framing. And, with good umpiring at any level, you just insult the umpire by trying to frame every pitch. I think the additional advantage of holding the glove still for a moment (but not so long that it looks like you're dissing the ump) is that it gives the umpire a chance to process the pitch, particularly if it's had some movement on it and he's trying to assess if it passed through the strike zone during its path. Nice contribution.

The bold words are so true. The first thing I tell catchers before the first pitch is "make sure nothing hits my 'precious' body" and "don't do any of that 'little league' (excrement) by pulling the ball into the zone; keep the ball between your shinguards, and you'll get those pitches."

At the Pony/Colt/Sr League/Jr League level, some catchers were told by their coaches to do that exact thing. I tell them they (those coaches) were wrong and when they do pull the ball in, they are telling me that they even think the ball was high or away themselves.

Lastly, tell the catchers not to hold the ball in the spot after the pitch was called a ball. That is really showing up the umpire.

*****WAR STORY ALERT****

I was working a Colt Regional Tournament several years ago and in the top of the seventh inning, I emphatically called a ball on a close pitch and the catcher held the ball in place for three or four seconds, complaining loudly (but not turning back) about that pitch. I told him, "You better throw that ball back to the pitcher and never show up me or any other umpire like that again!"

As fate would have it, in the bottom of the seventh inning and his team down by a run, with two outs and a runner on second, the catcher was now the hitter. Do you think he was going to get the call on any close pitches? We are humans, and he struck out looking. I did not take the bat out of his hands, but those close pitches definately went to the pitcher.

******End of War Story******

A few of other tips:

1. Don't ask the umpire before the game what is his zone. That should be determined after a few "borderline" pitches.

2. Unless you are at the lower levels, don't expect that pitch across the letters to be called a strike. Below the hands is normal and don't be surprised if you have guys call the belt and below.

3. Don't ask the catcher from the dugout, "Where was that pitch Johnny?" That puts the catcher in the position of showing up the umpire. A smart catcher will say something like "outside" aloud but would tell you in the dugout he thought it was a strike.

4. Don't ask the umpire more than once or twice, "Where was that pitch. Blue?" It is better to ask between innings, when getting a bat or walking to the coaches box, "Where did that pitch miss?" That keeps it professional and discreet. Do not dial the umpires long distance, you may get a deactivation fee *****WAR STORY ALERT**** I did use that line once in a Pony League game, it is still legendary at that park.******End of War Story******

5. If you feel the umpire ought to ask for help on a check swing that he called a ball. Do it right away and not after any play. A heads up umpire will come out right away, especially if there are two strikes and the ball gets by the catcher. If you ask after the play, 95% chance the base guy will stay with the call. Remember, if a pitch is called a strike, he cannot appeal to his partner for a check swing.

6. Never, I mean never ask either or any of the umpire to overrule another umpire. This is not allowed, by rule anyway. If you do have a question, make sure time is called, go to the umpire who actually made the call, you may convince him to ask for help, if it involves a rule interpretation, the crew will get together, and then stay with the call or reverse the call as a crew. If the call does not involve judgement, this is the time to make any protest if you feel the crew has erred in its interpretation of the rule. This must be done before the next pitch.

7. Any umpire may call a balk.

8. The plate umpire, in a two man system, would normally make any interference call at second on the front end of a double play.

9. Unless playing NFHS (high school) rules, balk are not immediate dead balls. If runner(s) reach at least one base and the batter reacher first, the play (and any outs) stand and the balk is ignored. If a pitcher balks on a wild throw, if the ruuner(s) reach the next base, the balk would be ignored as well. Tell your kids to play like nothing was called and the play will be sorted out after everything is over.

10. Catcher's interference (catcher's obstruction in NFHS rules); is similar to the balk in that if the runner reaches first and the other runners reach at least one base, it is ignored; otherwise batter is awarded first and any runners advancing on the play would be allowed to advance. However, this is one play the offensive team may elect to take the result of the play (like scoring a run) rather than having to take the award. The coach, captain, or manager must notify the umpires before the next pitch, or the penalty will be enforced. Balks, catcher's interferences, some interferences and obstructions are called delayed dead balls. Think of this like in football when the offended team may accept or decline a penalty.

11. Fielder's cannot interfere, they obstruct. With the exception of the catcher interfering with a hitter, fielders commit "obstruction" while runners, hitters, coaches, and even fans and umpires commit "interference." Don't argue that you want interference for your runner, you may get your way...interferences by the offense are always outs, maybe two.

12. Don't charge onto the field disputing any call. Wait until the dust settles, aks for "time", and walk out to the umpire(s). Head coach (HS and college) or manager only should talk. Do not double team any umpire, try to get away from the crowd by going on the infield grass. Try to discuss calmly, you may be able to get a good explaination and/or have him ask for help, at least.

13. When discussing anything with umpires do not use "You," You're," or "Your." Also, never question the integrity of the umpire or suggesting that he is taking money from the other team. That will lead you to an early exit from the premisis. If you are ejected, be out of sight and in no contact with the team. *****WAR STORY ALERT**** A couple of years ago at a Pony League game, a manager was ejected. He went around the fence by the street sidewalk and was conferring with the remianing coaches and some players. We stopped the game, told the acting manager that the ejected manager was to leave the area and you are to have no contact or the game would be terminated. This team got a four run lead in the top of the fifth inning and we were approaching time limit so all they ahd to do was hold on to the lead. In the middle of the inning, my partner told me the ejected manager was signaling the other coaches from across the street. Game terminated at that point. Forfeit 7-0 in favor of the home team. BTW, it was my only ejection of the year.******End of War Story******

12. Understand that Little League (which includes Jr League, Sr League and Big League) NCAA (college), NFHS (high school), OBR (Official Baseball Rules, AKA "pro") all are different in some interpretations. Many youth leagues use OBR such as Babe Ruth, Pony, USABA, CABA with organizational modifications appropriate for the age level. Know the rules specific for your team's level and league. Local and park rules may also have differences. Those are the four different rule codes that exist in baseball.

13. Most youth organizations do not permit the intentional crashing into any fielder like Pete Rose's did to Ray Fosse in the 1972 All-Star game. "Malicious contact" is interference and an ejection and all runner return to their base at the time of interefence. No league has a "Must slide rule!" However, if the runner fails to slide, and the contact is not deemed malicious (you know the difference), such action may result in a simple interference call. It would be sorted at the conclusion of the play. If a runner gives himself up, no interference nor a slide be necessary. Don't say "He must slide." A "must slide" rule is problematic and may cause unnecessary injuries.

14. Force Play slide rules. Not all leagues have this; NCAA and NFHS rules do have a specific FPS rule, normally associated with the front end of double plays, especially at second base. Some local rules may put one in, but OBR does not have one, but that does not mean a runner can interfere with a possible following play. In OBR, a runer must be able to reach a base with a hand or foot. Know what your league's rule is.

15. At home plate meeting, the umpires may do several different leagues and rules, remind him of your league and park rules, especially if it is an unusual local rule. Remember, many umpires work several levels of ball and sometimes must be reminded that your league does or does not use X,Y or Z.

I hope some of these tips can help. Be happy to answer any questions.

[Ursa Major]

Oops: double post.

[Ursa Major]

Terrific post there, and the tenor of what you said should answer a lot of further questions for coaches too.

Never, I mean never ask either or any of the umpire to overrule another umpire. This is not allowed, by rule anyway.This is one of the biggest mistakes made by youth coaches, particularly in our league where young (12 year old) players will ump the bases for Coach-pitch games. Coaches storm out to the more senior "crew chief" umpire demanding that he correct a junior ump's mistake. Or they'll ask an ump to get some help even though the ump was right on the play, but just saw it differently from the coach. It takes guts for these kids to say, "Sorry, Coach. I saw it all the way, and that's the way I call it."

When discussing anything with umpires do not use "You," You're," or "Your."I got my son laughing when I asked him a while back what the one word is you can never use with an umpire. He was trying to avoid being punished for guessing what he figured would be the surefire winner. That word of course is "you" -- as in "you stink" or "you must be blind". You get a little leeway in saying, "That call stunk." Rumor has it that the word "you" is what got Roger Clemens tossed in the first inning of his playoff debacle against Dave Stewart and the A's in 1990.

No league has a "Must slide rule!" However, if the runner fails to slide, and the contact is not deemed malicious (you know the difference), such action may result in a simple interference call. It would be sorted at the conclusion of the play. If a runner gives himself up, no interference nor a slide be necessary. Don't say "He must slide." A "must slide" rule is problematic and may cause unnecessary injuries.Our Pony League has always had a "must slide" rule at home, to avoid collisions with hard catchers' equipment. It got silly for awhile, where runners were being called out for not sliding on throws coming in from the left side of the diamond where they had no clue the ball was coming and the catcher caught if after they'd crossed the plate. Now there has to be a possibility of a collision. I agree that sliding when kids aren't ready to do so can results in sprains and breaks, when just trying to dodge around the tag may be safer.

For example, I have video where my son scored a run last year from second on a single. The catcher had planted himself directly in front of home to take the throw, so my son took a path behind him. At the last second, the throw went high and the catcher backed up to try to catch, forcing my son to change his path toward the front of the plate. Even though he clearly would be safe, he had to literally jump on the plate in a faux slide to make sure he wouldn't be called out. As you can see here (and can click HERE (http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/ADScores.mpg) to see the video of the play), it was not a pretty slide.
http://eteamz.active.com/ecyb/images/ADScoresSm.jpg

[Bluesteve32]

Our Pony League has always had a "must slide" rule at home, to avoid collisions with hard catchers' equipment. It got silly for awhile, where runners were being called out for not sliding on throws coming in from the left side of the diamond where they had no clue the ball was coming and the catcher caught if after they'd crossed the plate. Now there has to be a possibility of a collision. I agree that sliding when kids aren't ready to do so can results in sprains and breaks, when just trying to dodge around the tag may be safer.

For example, I have video where my son scored a run last year from second on a single. The catcher had planted himself directly in front of home to take the throw, so my son took a path behind him. At the last second, the throw went high and the catcher backed up to try to catch, forcing my son to change his path toward the front of the plate. Even though he clearly would be safe, he had to literally jump on the plate in a faux slide to make sure he wouldn't be called out. As you can see here (and can click HERE (http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/ADScores.mpg) to see the video of the play), it was not a pretty slide.
http://eteamz.active.com/ecyb/images/ADScoresSm.jpg

99% of the people confuse a "Must slide" rule for a "avoid contact" rule.

If there is no play, does there have to be a slide? If so why? Unnecessary sliding can cause even more injuries than potential collisions.

Secondly, if a runner gives himself up, just stops or slows down knowing he is to be tagged out, did he violate a "must slide rule?"

I work for a youth umpires group that covers some two dozen leagues playing Pony, Little League, CABA, and USABA and many alos work HS games. If I would get a nickle for every coach telling me about a "must slde rule," I'd be able to buy a MLB club. ;)

Most of these leagues have an "avoid contact rule," which means the runner must avoid contact with a fielder in possession or ready to receive the ball. The best way to avoid contact is sliding, but not the only way. I have seen runner basically "juke" the catcher (or other fielder) stay within the baseline and make the base. "He didn't slide," is what I often hear. My reply is, "Was ther any contact?"

"No!" replies the coach.

"Then why does there have to be a slide?"

At ground rules, I make it clear, especially in a league I am not as familiar or the begining of tournaments, since they often involve teams that play under slightly different rules.

Another situation, normally at the plate as well, a throw up the line and the catch is 10-15 feet up the line moving toward the runner. There is often a collision in this case. Does it break any rules? Normally, no, unless the catcher does not actually have the ball (LL and NCAA rules) or have the ball or ready to receive the ball (NFHS and OBR rules) or the runner engages in "malicious contact." Virtually in all cases, malicious contact is an out for interference and that player would be ejected.

If a runner scores and then maliciously contacts a fielder (catcher or pitcher backing up home or covering home) the run would score, if ther eare any other runners, one would be decalered out (the runner closest to home or the one that would have had a legitimate second play, judgement call), and runner return the the last base the acquired at the time of the interference.

So if the catcher runs up the line while a ruuner is charging hard from third, you have two forces coming at each other and contact, unless there is intent by either player to engage in malicous contact (I have seen catchers, in their gear, try to hurt some runners in a disadvantagous situation), then there may be "incidental contact" which may be vicious, but unintentional. There is an inherent risk while playing any sport, a baseball has balls, bats, and collisions with fences, ground, players, walls and the like, that ther will be people getting injured. So when the runner is too far to slide, the catcher moves up the line, and there is no time for the runner to adjust or avoid contact, and the catcher did not obstruct the runner by not having the ball, you just may have "no call" as there is no interference, no obstruction, and possibly no out if the catcher did not hang on to the ball.

*******War story alert*********

About ten years ago, working a Pony League game (one man game), runners at second and third, no outs. Batter swings and misses a low pitch in the dirt and starts to run to first, the first baseman was playing about halfway down, not at the bag, the catcher throws the ball to the first baseman, clearly standing on the infield grass, the runner was running in the dirt, changes direction onto the infield grass, winds up his arms and looks like a linebacker after a runner in football.

As this was going on the runners break for home and third respectively. When I saw the malicious contact by the batter-runner, I immediately called the batter-runner out on the tag (by the first baseman), ejected the batter-runner, declared the ball dead, called the runner advancing from third out on the batter-runner's interference, and sent the runner at second back to second (runners return to the base they held at the time of the interference).

Natrually, the manager went ballistic and said that I could not make that call. Since I was working by myself, there was no one on the field that could help out (not that I really needed any, but it may have been able to diffuse the situation) and kept on arguing the same thing, "You can't make that call!" I did what most of us would rather not do by suggesting that he has another alternative and let's get on with the game. It finally dawned on him to protest the situation, so he says, "I protest this ruling!"

"Fine!" I replied, and facing up towards the official scorer, who just happened to be the League President, and motioned a "backwards 'P'" for protest, and said, "He is protesting the game." Which was actually done corectly.

Now the manager, who at one time was an umpire with whom I had worked, went right back to saying "you can't make that call." I told him, "You protested the game, the call will stand, go back to your coaching box, and let's finish this game, there is nothing more that can be done!"

Well, he replied, "You can't make that call!" and then said, "Go back to Little League." Well, that did it. He was immediately ejected. However, his actions got his crowd into a tizzy fit for the rest of the game, and was the most miserable experience I have ever had on the ballfield. This happened in the second inning, so for five miserable innings, I had to put up with this (excrement).

After the game, I went up to that upper room above the snack bar wherne the offical scorers and announcers booth is located, threw the game balls down and told the President, "They protested the game, but I am not comming back here this year!"

He said, "Don't worry about the protest, you were right."

"Thanks Charlie (his actual name), but I am still not coming back to do these one man games here." I did not return the rest of the season and I showed up the next season with a couple of old time managers, "I thought you quit."

"No, that (name of the manager) situation last season, I just did not come back here."

******End of war story********

Ursa Major, I am willing to bet that your league's rule is indeed a "avoid contact rule" as opposed to a "must slide rule." I don't beleive that you ever should mandate that a runner must slide

[PopTop]

A most excellent thread indeed. Also echo Jake's notion of being able to include some of this in our upcoming Rules & Umpire Clinic if that's possible. The stuff about how a catcher and umpire can work together is super!

I do my best as an umpire to make my call as the pitch crosses the plate, at least make my mind up then and not even worry about where the catcher ends up with the ball. Jerky moves back into the strike zone or holding a pitch for a couple of seconds does no good with me. And nothing gets in my craw faster than some coach or parent sitting or standing 50 feet away at a 90-degree angle to the plate and hollering at me, "Where was that, Blue? Look where the catcher caught it!"

[Jake Patterson]

Look where the catcher caught it!"

At a particularly frustrating game. I finally asked the umpire about a called ball, "Where was that Blue?" He replied, "Outside the strike zone, coach." The next pitch was another close one outside, ball two, and I asked again, "Now where the hell was that one?" He replied, "Outside the strike zone, coach." The next ball was another close ball outside and I said, "I suppose that one was outside the strike zone too?" Now you're catching on coach! That's why we call them balls."

[Bluesteve32]

You know that most umpires want to call a lot of stikes. Maore stikes = more outs and the game moves quickly. ;)

[Ursa Major]

BlueSteve said: Ursa Major, I am willing to bet that your league's rule is indeed a "avoid contact rule" as opposed to a "must slide rule." I don't beleive that you ever should mandate that a runner must slideHere's the exact rule:


A catcher may not block home plate unless he or she is in the process of making a play at the plate - he or she must have the ball or be in the immediate act of catching the ball. In this case, the runner must slide. A base runner who runs into the catcher without sliding (when there is a play at the plate) will be called out. The intent of this rule is to avoid unsafe conditions at the plate. Failure to slide does not automatically result in an out - if there is no possibility of a collision with the catcher, then no slide is required.

The term "no possibility of a collision" has been interpreted by the coaches (and presumably the umpires) to mean that the ball will arrive so late or so far from the plate that there is no risk of collision (at least not with a catcher with ball in hand). The prevailing wisdom is that a player will be called out if the catcher catches the ball up the third base line and toward the dugout and the player evades the tag but does not slide, even though the only conceivable collision is between the runner and the outstretched glove of the catcher desperately reaching into the baseline. This is close to what happened with my son in the scene shown above; if he had not slid, he very possibly would have been called out, even though his slide had nothing to do with avoiding a tag.

My son is on the Coach-pitch umpiring crew; I'll ask him to get a ruling from the ump supervisor (a very experienced umpire up to college level) for his interpretation.


PopTop said: And nothing gets in my craw faster than some coach or parent sitting or standing 50 feet away at a 90-degree angle to the plate and hollering at me, "Where was that, Blue? Look where the catcher caught it!"On the other hand, in leagues like ours where the dugout is close to home plate, players and coaches often have a better view of heighths of pitches than the plate umpire. As I'm sure you know, inexperienced umpires tend to deem any pitch that does not actually hit the dirt high enough to be a strike, because they can't assess depth perception well. So, a pitch an inch off the ground may be a strike, and everyone on both benches can see the error. There, I can see a little well restrained grumbling to have the benefit of getting the umpire's head back into the game. This is not to say that the crowd is always right. A slow pitch that hits the dirt in front of a catcher positioned deep in the catcher's box may well be a strike.

[Bluesteve32]

Here's the exact rule:


A catcher may not block home plate unless he or she is in the process of making a play at the plate - he or she must have the ball or be in the immediate act of catching the ball. In this case, the runner must slide. A base runner who runs into the catcher without sliding (when there is a play at the plate) will be called out. The intent of this rule is to avoid unsafe conditions at the plate. Failure to slide does not automatically result in an out - if there is no possibility of a collision with the catcher, then no slide is required.

The term "no possibility of a collision" has been interpreted by the coaches (and presumably the umpires) to mean that the ball will arrive so late or so far from the plate that there is no risk of collision (at least not with a catcher with ball in hand). The prevailing wisdom is that a player will be called out if the catcher catches the ball up the third base line and toward the dugout and the player evades the tag but does not slide, even though the only conceivable collision is between the runner and the outstretched glove of the catcher desperately reaching into the baseline. This is close to what happened with my son in the scene shown above; if he had not slid, he very possibly would have been called out, even though his slide had nothing to do with avoiding a tag.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:ughh

Any time you mandate a play that he must slide, leave open a whole can of worms. What if a player slides, get injured, because he could have avoided contact?

I am not a big fan of many NFHS (High School rules), but their avoid contact rules gives the runners and umpires more choices and does not mandate sliding, but defines legal slides. The NFHS's language specifies, "A player does not have to slide, but if he does so, it must be legal."

I understand the league's intent, but this reminds me of those school districts that have a zero tolerance for weapons, and expels a second graded for bring his GI Joe which happened to have that 2 1/2" weapon. ;)

Wouldn't an "avoid contact rule" do the same thing? Sometime, some mommy will sue the league because Johnny had to slide and he broke his ankle because the catcher was up the line and Johnny was "bitwixed and between." No league in my area, Little League, Pony League or any of the national organization have "must slide" rules. "Avoid contact" rules (with the idea that the best way to "avoid contact" is to slide, but not the only way) seem to be best.


My son is on the Coach-pitch umpiring crew; I'll ask him to get a ruling from the ump supervisor (a very experienced umpire up to college level) for his interpretation.

Good Idea. He may agree to modify the rule.


On the other hand, in leagues like ours where the dugout is close to home plate, players and coaches often have a better view of heighths of pitches than the plate umpire. As I'm sure you know, inexperienced umpires tend to deem any pitch that does not actually hit the dirt high enough to be a strike, because they can't assess depth perception well. So, a pitch an inch off the ground may be a strike, and everyone on both benches can see the error. There, I can see a little well restrained grumbling to have the benefit of getting the umpire's head back into the game. This is not to say that the crowd is always right. A slow pitch that hits the dirt in front of a catcher positioned deep in the catcher's box may well be a strike.

Too many umpire do call a very low strike zone. One colleague, who isa big time D-1 umpire and the state rules interpreter for HS, told me a trick about that lower pitch and when to call it a strike:


If the catcher catches a fastball at his knees, it should be a strike

You know, that really seems to work at any level, and if the catcher sets up in the middle of the plate, and catches the ball in his normal stance between the knees of shin guards, it should be a strike. Sinkers, curves, changeups and similar pitches, the normal practice is the catcher needs to get it in the air to get that call. By rule, some pitches may actually hit the ground and could be called strikes, but those are rare occurances. The more pitches called a strike, the better the game, no one, especially in youth ball, does not want to see a walk-a-thon.

More recently, Gerry Davis, who conducts many clincs in the off season, has developed the most recent stance now being used by umpires. The common stances that have been in vogue the last two decades has been the box (the different variations taught at the pro schools, passed on to amateur umpires in clincs and those who attended Wendlstedt's, Evans', or Brinkman's schools), the knee (ump on one knee, not reccommended for youth ball or umpire under 6'), and the scissors (similar to the knee, but the back leg is not resting on the ground). Now many have switched to the Gerry Davis System (GDS), which is similar to most base umpires' stances when inside the diamond (hands on knees) by putting the hands just behind the shin guards and leaning over.

Last Saturday, I tried that stance, even though I tried it last season, I kept on reverting back to my traditional box stance, which I have used for over two decades. It was fantastic, and since I had not worked a game since last July, I was able to work nine innings in less than three hours, no problems on the legs, knees, and felt comfortable. Many conferences and associations are trying to bring the zone up a bit, so this stance seems to help.

My guess is that your umpires are too low and calling the pitch too early. The ought to slow down a bit, wait until the ball hits the catcher's glove and that will help their timing and they'll miss fewer pitches.

[Bluesteve32]

A most excellent thread indeed. Also echo Jake's notion of being able to include some of this in our upcoming Rules & Umpire Clinic if that's possible. The stuff about how a catcher and umpire can work together is super!

I do my best as an umpire to make my call as the pitch crosses the plate, at least make my mind up then and not even worry about where the catcher ends up with the ball. Jerky moves back into the strike zone or holding a pitch for a couple of seconds does no good with me. And nothing gets in my craw faster than some coach or parent sitting or standing 50 feet away at a 90-degree angle to the plate and hollering at me, "Where was that, Blue? Look where the catcher caught it!"

I like it when the catcher set up so far outside and then he does not move his glove. This is ususally a HS trick, the coaches OOOOOOOOOOO and AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH, I turn and, with a grin, hold out my hands about 9" to 12." They often grin right back. ;)

[Bluesteve32]

While we are on the subject, I will mention the number one petr peeve by many umpires at all levels and that is showing up the umpire.

When a pitch is called a strike and the batter thought itwas too far inside or outside, some smart alecks will draw a line with their bats at the spot they thought the pitch went. Some of my colleagues will immediately eject a batter for that one, my trick is to borrow the bat, draw a line on the other side of the plate the same distance, hand him back the bat and tell him, "Good luck! and "I like you line better" or "Ok, we'll go with your's now!"

Another is to look at the third base coach and motion with his hand to where he though the location of that last pitch. One line used that a buddy of mine used, "If you thought that one was bad, wait 'till you see this one!"

What bugs some adult umpires, that have been trained and are experienced, is to have some "punk kid," who thinks he knows more than that umpire. In fact, there is a kid on my son's team that is quite arrogant when I am explaining rules (I am helping coaching the team this season). He actually argued with me about a rule! Somehow, he has learned more baseball and its rules in his 13 years of life that I did in my 10 years coaching, 15 years as a groudskeeper, and my 24 seasons as an umpire with some 15 as an instructor!:ughh

For leagues using trained umpires, treat them professionally, be courtious, and the should give you the same respect. If they don't hustle or seem fair, go through "proper channels" and report them. The association and/or assigner will take care of things if they value your league's patronage.

Those leagues using volunteer and in-house umpires, please understand that they may not have had sufficient training (that four hour field clinic at the begining of each season helps, but is not sufficient). Also, their rule knowledge just may not be what it is supposed to be.

Keep in mind, what you see in MLB may not be applicable in your league. Little League's actual rules mirro many OBR rules word for wod and use the same number, but those differences are enough to be significant that you see at Yankee Stadium. Those league using OBR, keep in mind most organizations that use OBR had unique modifications (substitutions, safetys rules) peculiar to that organization or league.

Also, when watching a HS game, the rules have significant rule differences, like substitutions, DH, reentry, balks, FPS (force play slide rules, where a runner in the fron end of a DP, must slide directly into the base or veer away from the play and ther does not have to be a slide) and NCAA rules have some unique features, especially with the DH (would rather not get into NCAA's complex DH rule :ughh ) as well.

Lastly, Joe Morgan, Vin Scully, Tim McCarver, Harlold Reynolds and all the announcers of baseball do not have a clue on the rules. Please don't take their word when watching the game on TV or listening on radio. I'd be happy if they could discern the difference between obstruction and interference. ;)

[Bluesteve32]

This one is simple, but almost everyone get is wrong.

A foul tip, is a pitch which hits of the bat and in a direct filght is caught by the catcher. the ball is alive and in plays, runners may advance at their own peril. If a ball directly off the bat and hits the catcher's glove or meat hand, and then is smothered or possessed by any fielder (like to see that happen) would also be a foul tip.

A foul ball is all other balls of the bat that is not fair. It would also be a foul ball if the ball, directly off the bat, hits the catcher's (or umpire's)paraphenilia (chest protector, mask, etc), without first contacting the glove or meat hand, it is a foul ball, even is "caught" before it hits the ground.

I got hit with a ball and someone said, "Oh did you get hit with a foul tip?" Ah, no...if it were a foul tip, the ball would not have hit me. I got hit with a foul ball. ;)

[bbjunkie]

In LL I believe that the rule does not say that a runner must slide, it says they must avoid contact. If he slides and a collision occurs, no problem. But if he doesn't slide and a collision occurs he is out. If he doesn't slide and no collision occurs, no problem.

[Bluesteve32]

Batting out of Order (BOO) is the most complex rule in baseball. Rule 6.07 in Little League and OBR.

This is the Reader's Digest version. All codes agree, too.

When a batter completes (reaches base or is put out) his turn, in the wrong spot in the batting order, on appeal, he shall be declared out and all runners who advance due to the imporper batter, would return to their last bases and any outs made, stand. The batter who name on the line up that follows the batter declared out, would be the next batter, if he is legally on base, the next one on the line up would bat.:crazy

Appeals must be made before the next pitch. If not the improper batter's at bat is now proper and you can't do much about that. However, the wrong batter may now be at the plate.

If you appeal an improper batter before he completes his turn, the proper batter would take his place and assume the count. If you want the out, wait until he finishes that turn at bat.:lookitup

Sometimes an improper batter may bat, reach base, be declared out, and now be the proper batter. Basically, the batter who should have batter, end up missing his turn. :noidea

Keep in mind, the batter who should have batter would be out, after he/she is out, the guy who follows him/her would be the correct batter. By some chance that player is on base, skip to the next batter. All steals, balks, wild pitches made duing that at bat stand; however, if a runner advances on the ball hit by the imnproper batter, is return following the appeal and out made on the play stand. For example, proper batter grounds into a force play and reaches safely, On appeal, that improper batter is out, the force out stands and any other runner would return to their base unless the third out is made.

I hope this helps, more screw ups happen due to the BOO rule, and because many do not understand how to apply it or enforce it, this can be the cause of many protests.

[Bluesteve32]

In LL I believe that the rule does not say that a runner must slide, it says they must avoid contact. If he slides and a collision occurs, no problem. But if he doesn't slide and a collision occurs he is out. If he doesn't slide and no collision occurs, no problem.

Unless they put one in recently, you are correct. I had a DA tell me that a decade ago in SR. League tournament (CA-18).

[Ursa Major]

BlueSteve said: Wouldn't an "avoid contact rule" do the same thing? Sometime, some mommy will sue the league because Johnny had to slide and he broke his ankle because the catcher was up the line and Johnny was "bitwixed and between." No league in my area, Little League, Pony League or any of the national organization have "must slide" rules. "Avoid contact" rules (with the idea that the best way to "avoid contact" is to slide, but not the only way) seem to be best.

BBJunkie said: In LL I believe that the rule does not say that a runner must slide, it says they must avoid contact. If he slides and a collision occurs, no problem. But if he doesn't slide and a collision occurs he is out. If he doesn't slide and no collision occurs, no problem.BB, I think you've got it. There will be some plays in which a collision is inevitable, so it's best for all concerned if the runner slides to minimize his speed at contact and to lessen the possibility that two-larged mass or critical (i.e., noggins) body parts will collide. But, if you can avoid contact altogether, you're safe (in both meanings of the word).

The problem with a rule that revolves around "sliding when a play at the plate is possible" is assessing when that possibility exists. Going back to the example of my son, clearly the collision was possible from his perspective at any point up until he was about twelve feet from the plate. The catcher, following the path of the ball, knew there was no risk when the runner was about twenty feet out. And, from a real world point of view, the chance of a play at the plate was gone when the ball left the outfielders hand at too high a trajectory, when the runner was about 55 feet away. So, which "possibility" governs?


BlueSteve said: By rule, some pitches may actually hit the ground and could be called strikes, but those are rare occurances. In any league up to 12 years old, this can happen easily, with slow changeups (or slow pitchers) and catchers who seem more afraid to get up behind the batter.

As to your comment about calling strikes to avoid a walk-a-thon, my main objection is in youth games when the low outside strike is given too frequently, particularly against short batters. They may be closer to the ground, but their arms are shorter and the have to carry shorter bats because of their lesser strength. It is physically impossible for them to reach those pitches, and umpires who regularly give that strike ruin the game for kids who are most at risk of giving it up.

[bbjunkie]

Batting out of Order (BOO) is the most complex rule in baseball. Rule 6.07 in Little League and OBR.

I hope this helps, more screw ups happen due to the BOO rule, and because many do not understand how to apply it or enforce it, this can be the cause of many protests.

There's one more little twist. When an improper batter reaches base and an appeal is not made, the next proper batter becomes the batter that follows the improper batter, now legalized runner, in the order.

[Bluesteve32]

There's one more little twist. When an improper batter reaches base and an appeal is not made, the next proper batter becomes the batter that follows the improper batter, now legalized runner, in the order.

Yes, that is true. Often in a BOO situation, hitter actually "switch" so a BOO situation may happen, even after an improper batter has been made proper. I was trying to say that, but when you do a Reader's Digest version, you tend to miss something. ;)

[Bluesteve32]

In any league up to 12 years old, this can happen easily, with slow changeups (or slow pitchers) and catchers who seem more afraid to get up behind the batter.

As to your comment about calling strikes to avoid a walk-a-thon, my main objection is in youth games when the low outside strike is given too frequently, particularly against short batters. They may be closer to the ground, but their arms are shorter and the have to carry shorter bats because of their lesser strength. It is physically impossible for them to reach those pitches, and umpires who regularly give that strike ruin the game for kids who are most at risk of giving it up.

Calling pitches that actually hit the ground, was not what I was saying should be the practice, even though by rule, it may actually be a strike. My son played Pinto (7-8 years) last season, in a kid pitch league. My biggest critiqie was not enough strikes were being called. I don't like those extememly low stikes called, like seems to be the norm, however, if the catcher does catch the ball at his knee, there is no way that pitch is too low for the hitter to hit the ball.

As far as bats go, there are now -11 bats (length and weight differential, NCAA and NFHS must have -3 with a BESR rating) for those smaller players.

Pitching is so inconsistant at the younger level, and teaching kids to walk every at bat is also doing a disservice. Last season, one manager had the weaker hitters stand almost on top of the plate and not swing at any pitches. How is that teaching the game?

[Ursa Major]

As far as bats go, there are now -11 bats (length and weight differential, NCAA and NFHS must have -3 with a BESR rating) for those smaller players. They actually go up to -12.5. Even so, for tiny kids, a 29/16.5 is a lot of bat to get around.

Pitching is so inconsistant at the younger level, and teaching kids to walk every at bat is also doing a disservice. Last season, one manager had the weaker hitters stand almost on top of the plate and not swing at any pitches. How is that teaching the game?I assume that is in the Pinto league? How do coaches like that even get into the league? I think there should be meetings among coaches (or at least roundtable, on-line exchanges with the league presidents) at that level where coaches can bring up issues like that that where they think competitiveness gets in the way of instruction. And, it will take years for those kids to ever swing at a 3-2 pitch, as they'll still think that a walk is the primary ticket to first base.

[Bluesteve32]

They actually go up to -12.5. Even so, for tiny kids, a 29/16.5 is a lot of bat to get around.
I assume that is in the Pinto league? How do coaches like that even get into the league? I think there should be meetings among coaches (or at least roundtable, on-line exchanges with the league presidents) at that level where coaches can bring up issues like that that where they think competitiveness gets in the way of instruction. And, it will take years for those kids to ever swing at a 3-2 pitch, as they'll still think that a walk is the primary ticket to first base.

You know, those guys would rather win that actually teach kids to play ball, and funny thing, it is not a cutthorat league, but a couple of coach/dads take it a bit too seriously. When we were with LL, they has a T-ball division that one team, by the second round, was insisting on runners that are out, be taken off the bases, and nit picking on other situations....It's T-ball, no score (they were keeping some kind of stats), and supposed to be fun and a learning tool to prepare them for eventually moving into baseball.

[Jake Patterson]

I think there should be meetings among coaches (or at least roundtable, on-line exchanges with the league presidents) at that level where coaches can bring up issues like that that where they think competitiveness gets in the way of instruction. And, it will take years for those kids to ever swing at a 3-2 pitch, as they'll still think that a walk is the primary ticket to first base.

I have always felt that the lower leagues are improperly managed to create a walk mentality in the upper levels. I believe we should open the strike zones for Minor League, Pony (?) to what ever they can get the bat on. Keep them swinging!

Out of curiosity... Why would a youth league go with Pony, Colt, etc. when Little League is available and worldwide?

[Bluesteve32]

Out of curiosity... Why would a youth league go with Pony, Colt, etc. when Little League is available and worldwide?

Good question and that deserves a good answer.

Little League's system basically plays the same ball from 7 or 8 until they are 12 and then expects a 13 year old to play on a full size diamond. A 12 year old playing only Little League then plays in a 13 year old league, be it Pony, CABA, or even Jr and Sr League now has to learn to lead off, pitcher must lear to pithc from a set position, catcher must now catch third strikes, and all players must now play with longer bases and greater pitching distances.

In Pony and some of the other systems which are similar, have a 5-6 t-ball (Shetland in Pony) that morphs into "coach pitch division, 7-8 division (Pinto in Pony) which can be player pitch and limited advancing on bases depending on local rules, 9-10 (Mustang in Pony) divison that plays OBR with a few safety and substitution modifications, 11-12 division (Bronco in Pony) which really plays "real baseball," a 13-14 division (Pony in Pony), 15-16 (Colt in pony), and so on.

In each divison the diamond gets bigger and the pitcher is further away. Pinto 50 foot bases and pitches at 38 feet, Mustang is 60 foot bases (same as LL) and pitches at 44 feet, Bronco is 70 foot bases and pitches at 48 feet, Pony is 80 foot bases and pitches at 54 feet, Colt and above plays at the full size diamond of 90 foot bases and pitching at 60' 6". The local high school coaches do perfer the graduated system that feed into their programs and there is less of an adjustment between levels.

Many of these other organization do have World Series and do play worldwide as well.

[bbjunkie]

Good question and that deserves a good answer.

Little League's system basically plays the same ball from 7 or 8 until they are 12 and then expects a 13 year old to play on a full size diamond. A 12 year old playing only Little League then plays in a 13 year old league, be it Pony, CABA, or even Jr and Sr League now has to learn to lead off, pitcher must lear to pithc from a set position, catcher must now catch third strikes, and all players must now play with longer bases and greater pitching distances.

In Pony and some of the other systems which are similar, have a 5-6 t-ball (Shetland in Pony) that morphs into "coach pitch division, 7-8 division (Pinto in Pony) which can be player pitch and limited advancing on bases depending on local rules, 9-10 (Mustang in Pony) divison that plays OBR with a few safety and substitution modifications, 11-12 division (Bronco in Pony) which really plays "real baseball," a 13-14 division (Pony in Pony), 15-16 (Colt in pony), and so on.

In each divison the diamond gets bigger and the pitcher is further away. Pinto 50 foot bases and pitches at 38 feet, Mustang is 60 foot bases (same as LL) and pitches at 44 feet, Bronco is 70 foot bases and pitches at 48 feet, Pony is 80 foot bases and pitches at 54 feet, Colt and above plays at the full size diamond of 90 foot bases and pitching at 60' 6". The local high school coaches do perfer the graduated system that feed into their programs and there is less of an adjustment between levels.

Many of these other organization do have World Series and do play worldwide as well.

I question the conventional wisdom on how much of a leap it is from LL to the big field. My son, after playing nothing but LL, played on a 14U fall ball travel team this past autumn. In some respects he found it easier to play on the big field. Takes the ball longer to get to you in the field and you can see the pitch coming for a longer time. Pitching was the big hurdle for him, as he weighs only 85 pounds and doesn't have a lot of power. Leading off had a very short learning curve and he had little difficulty hitting hard enough to get base hits and even a few doubles.

I suppose graduated field sizes may be marginally beneficial, but poor rural areas like ours do not have the resourses to build a bunch of different sized fields. Kids in our area seem to make the transition without an undue amount of trouble.

[Jake Patterson]

[QUOTE=bbjunkie]I question the conventional wisdom on how much of a leap it is from LL to the big field. [QUOTE]

Not to mention those that play middle school (big field) and Little League at the same time.

I like the different size fields, but agree with BB that it would be cost prohibitive for most communities.

[Bluesteve32]

Actually, as a former groundskeeper, you can have two sets of stakes and pitching distances if land and money are a problem. The one leage my son is in playes Bronco, pony and the HS freshmen play ion the sme diamond, but it is an all dirt field, wich is a drawback.

Having a field adjust is doable, but I would reccommend only two sets, any more than that really becomes a bit too much. Besides, many leagues in my area have a "Prep field, minor field, and Major field, yet they are all the same size.

On the learing curve, batter running on theird strikes or catcher remembering to tag or throw out runners after five or so years of not having to worry about it still becomes a bad habit in HS. I can tell HS programs that have Little League feeders programs and HS that have OBR programs. The pitching motions still are a problem, as many 13 and 14 year olds are still having trouble pitching from the set postion properly and often balk. Many also get by with "Little League windups" that are illegal with runners on base. I tend to balk some 13 year old every year, and I even war the coach about that windup would be a balk with runners on base. After the fact, I get all kind of flak, even though I warned and in some cases actually demonstrate between innings, but to no avail.

I see less dancing and clapping on the bases with the kids that are used to leading off, which is really bushleague at the higher levels. I know in LL, that ploy is often used to draw throws to advance beforethe pitcher is on the rubber. As for playing on those travelling teams, those kids normally are among the best as far as baseball skills, so their learning curve is much quicker.

This has been my experience in two and a half decades of umpiring, a decade or so of coaching and a decade an a half of working on ballfields. Also my talking with local HS coaches seem to concur with much of what I have posted in this forum.

All that aside, I think for any kid having a chance to play ball in any organized league can be a lot of fun, and it is the people who run the league that can make things enjoyable for the kids, or they are the ones who tend to mess it up for the kids.

[Ursa Major]

I think Steve hit it on the head. Sure, the jump to 90 foot bases is doable -- I did it -- but the pitching was weak and catchers' throws to second (where they didn't have to worry about stealers before) were often pathetic.

And I think for big 12 year old kids, the Little League dimensions are just too short. It's scary to watch the LL World Series and seeing these amped boys with sideburns throwing at 75 MPH to 4'10" kids only 45 feet away. My son went from a spring Bronco level (11-12 y/o) Pony League (70' basepaths) to a summer league with LL rules, and it was ridiculous what the big kids could do. One phenomenal athlete just shy of his 13th birthday batted .980, because he could never be thrown out at first. And when he pitched, no one could hit or catch him. (I know; I often warmed him up and he scared me.)

Also, Pony scrupulously brackets kids by age. Sure, kids develop at different stages anyway, but it scared me as a kid using LL rules to be pitching as a 10 year old against 12 year old behemoths who for some reason hadn't moved up to the 11-12 y/o level.

Also, I think Pony seems to lend itself to a little more tinkering. Our league, for example, mandates that each kid get at least three innings a game in the field and a full-squad batting order (i.e., if 11 kids show up, you have an 11-player batting order so substitutions don't have to be made).

Field sizes don't seem to be a problem with us. The Pinto (7-8 y/o) kids just play on grass with backstops; no special field is required. Mustang (9-10 y/o) and Bronco (11-12 y/o) kids share fields with girls softball players; the dimensions work out. The difficult level is the 80 foot basepaths required by the Pony (13-14 y/o) kids, but they can probably use a regulation 90-foot field so long as the infield grass doesn't grow out so far that it would interefere with the baselines. I think our league just made an arrangement to use fields in neighboring towns; there are so few teams in that age bracket that sharing is less of a problem.

[Bluesteve32]

You just have a shorter infield grass. We, unfortunately, have a lot of all dirt infiled that also double up as softball fields. The main city facility unsed by my son's league has softball stakes at 60', Bronco 70', Pony 80', Colt/HS 90' and I would not be shocked if there were a slo-picth SCMAF base stake. There are rubbers out the ying yang, but therre are few porblems. I personally dont care for more than 2 rubbers per diamond, not counting a fast-pitch softball one at 40'.

[PopTop]

As to your comment about calling strikes to avoid a walk-a-thon, my main objection is in youth games when the low outside strike is given too frequently, particularly against short batters.I've never called a pitch a strike if it wasn't. Regardless of the game situation, I do my very best to keep the same strike zone from batter to batter and game to game. I like to see the little kids excel as much as the next guy, but if it's knee high and crosses any part of the plate, it's a strike.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
As to your comment about calling strikes to avoid a walk-a-thon, my main objection is in youth games when the low outside strike is given too frequently, particularly against short batters.

PopTop said: I've never called a pitch a strike if it wasn't. Regardless of the game situation, I do my very best to keep the same strike zone from batter to batter and game to game. I like to see the little kids excel as much as the next guy, but if it's knee high and crosses any part of the plate, it's a strike.I heartily agree. But for some reason these kids are more likely to get a pitch three inches off the ground called as a strike against them. The difference in knee heighth in kids whose total height differs by five inches is negligible. Combining that with umpires whose strike zone is a little wide anyway can make for a miserable experience. I think umpires who call that pitch to anyone a strike are often too lazy to bend over to look at it carefully. They have to be excrutiatingly careful about that call with all kids, but perhaps the handicap suffered by the tiny kids will remind them of the ruination that the umps can visit upon all kids by bad calls.

[PopTop]

You're right about the balls several inches off the plate; they shouldn't be strikes. And you're also correct that if an umpire has excess to both his horizontal and vertical zones, that really can frustrate both the hitter and their coach.

But I disagree with you about there not being much difference between two kids of different height in relation to where their knees are. Blue Steve was talking about the different positions that umpires set up in earlier, and the one I prefer is the scissor stance. But for the really short kids, I get down on one knee (outside knee). I'm over 6-feet tall (used to be near 6-2 before time and gravity shrunk me to about 6-1 :D ), and I have to get down lower on the short kids in order to call a truer strike zone on them. I've had umpires whose opinions I respect tell me that my stance should be consistent, but I'm just too old, especially my knees, to get low enough in a scissor stance for some of the smaller kids. And if I set up too high, then I lose a lot of my perspective on the low pitches.

With kids from 10-12 years old in the majors division of Little League, we have players from 4-foot-nothing to 5-10 (that was the range last season in our league). Some of them have long legs, some have long bodies, some have seemingly 90% of their height between their knees and chest and some are all "knees-&-down, chest-&-up." The differences from one kid to the next can be nominal, but that can often be the exception and not the rule.

[Bluesteve32]

You're right about the balls several inches off the plate; they shouldn't be strikes. And you're also correct that if an umpire has excess to both his horizontal and vertical zones, that really can frustrate both the hitter and their coach.

But I disagree with you about there not being much difference between two kids of different height in relation to where their knees are. Blue Steve was talking about the different positions that umpires set up in earlier, and the one I prefer is the scissor stance. But for the really short kids, I get down on one knee (outside knee). I'm over 6-feet tall (used to be near 6-2 before time and gravity shrunk me to about 6-1 :D ), and I have to get down lower on the short kids in order to call a truer strike zone on them. I've had umpires whose opinions I respect tell me that my stance should be consistent, but I'm just too old, especially my knees, to get low enough in a scissor stance for some of the smaller kids. And if I set up too high, then I lose a lot of my perspective on the low pitches.
With kids from 10-12 years old in the majors division of Little League, we have players from 4-foot-nothing to 5-10 (that was the range last season in our league). Some of them have long legs, some have long bodies, some have seemingly 90% of their height between their knees and chest and some are all "knees-&-down, chest-&-up." The differences from one kid to the next can be nominal, but that can often be the exception and not the rule.

On the part about losing perspective, that is why I like to use the catchers knees as a good spot to ascertain that low strike. If he catches a fastball at his knees, in a traditional catcher's stance, virtually every time, the batter's knees in a stance even with the plate, seems to work.

Natrually, slight adjustments may have to be made when a 6-2 players is playing with 4-8 players, which happen in youth ball quite often. I actually worked nine innings last Staurday using the Gerry Davis style, and felt great despite not having seeing a pithc since last July. I never have used the knee or the scissors, for I was not tall enough 5-10 1/2, and the scissors was never comfotable for me. I always worked the box, but I can see how locking into position is the most important factor and getting your head at the same place each pitch. Also many umpires need to slow down in calling balls and strikes, that would most likely help you miss fewer pitches.

Getting comfortable is the utmost. Hydrate heavily (before working the plate, especially on hot (and humid) days. Avoid caffine on those days, since caffine is a diaretic and inhibits your body from properly exchanging water. The "underarmor" and "interawear" (and similar brands of material shirts) undershirts are a necessity. The evaporte moisture much quicker, and when washed properly, they don't fade their colors.

Depending on your groups' uniform, wear clothes that matches your partner's. One should not come out in a Navy shirt and the other in a powder blue or black shirt for example. Shoes need to be shined, dark socks, and keep you hat clean and it sould be sized. Carry two "clickers" in case one breaks or jams and I reccommend notchung your indicators on the zeros, so you can reset them without looking.

I also use the spare indicator to count runs when I am working games I have a line up in the pocket. Many youth games have official scoreres, and that is not necessary. If you do, brink out two writing impliments, I use red ink since it is rarely that a coach or manager gives me a copy of his lineup in blue or black ink, pencil or NCR copy. If keeping a lineup, keep track of the score, offensive an defensive conferences if working NFHS or NCAA and trips in OBR, warnings and ejections, and most importantly, that cute brunette in the front row's phone number. ;)

Depending on the league, when the coach or manager makes a trip to the mound, I time it by sweeping the plate, and going up the baseline of that team's dugout, then move to the mound to finish the conference. In some organizations like Pony (Pinto to Palimoino) may only let three players confer at the same time, so send off the extra players, if applicable. If it is NFHS, I will remind the coach how many more he has (you have three a game in NFHS and NCAA rules, In NCAA you can only make one an inning and three a game, in NFHS, you can take three to one batter but then everytime afterward, he must remove a pitcher and any changes would not be a conference in those rules), in OBR one "free" trip per pitcher per inning.

Make sure plate umpires get their mask out of their right hand and all umpires, even leftys, must make out and strike calls with their right hand. There is not thumb used in out or strike calls, either. That is for the Bad News Bears or Max Dugan Returns(the movie that has a nine inning HS game) type of movies. ;) Don't be bullied by the "You are the first one to call that all year," or "The did not call it last game" cries from the coaches. Be sure on what rules you are playing and the differences like out of play lines in OBR and NFHS are different, don't intermingle or use the wrong rule.

In "fiendlies" preseason, scrimmages, practice games, alumni games and the like, go ahead and cater to the coaches, they may want some instruction or bat six outs clearing the bases duing the game. Before the season starts, get a few innings behind the plate and working the bases to get the kinks out and there is where you can try some "new Mechanic" you have been told about.

Wear no jewelry on the pate, even rings. One of my rings got nailed when a foul ball hit my hand, the ring bent, eventually broke, and it took two days before I could get it off my finger. if you need a watch because you are working with a time limit, put it in your back pocket. Don't cheat the teams out of time: If no new inning starts at 2:15 and the third out is made in the bottom half at 2:14:30, go another inning as per the league rules. Tell them at plate meeting what time you have, and make sure if there is a run seperation (Often called a "Mercy rule" a term I hate) rule and innings must be compleated say if the score becomes V-14 H-2 in the top of the 5th. The home team must bat in the bottom of the fifth and get a chance to score three runs to keep their chances alive, unless local or organization rules interpret that differently.

Double play situations, when the ball is hit, BU (base umpire) moves toward first, looks at second, and takes another step, if practicable, towards first and makes both calls. PU (plate umpire) will call any interference at second, especailly in NFHS and NCAA rules where a FPS (force play slide) rules is in effect. In OBR, a retired runner may still not interfere with any following play and must beable to reach the base with a foot or hand, so keep that in mind.

Check swings, try to ask before anyone asks you to get help. If a ball goes back to the screen with two strikes, come up right away to your partner so the runner can advance to first. However, if you ask "too late," the runner is put in jeopordy because of poor mechanics and you partner most likely will just say no on a swing. Have the 'nads to call interference on batter-runners not running within the lane on plays there is a chance for interference. Those are mostly uncaught third strikes, bunts, slow dribblers between the mound and the plate. Make that call before the defensive team says anything, especially if you saw it right away. If you need help, confer with your partner(s) before the coaches come out. (That was Scioscia's biggest mistake after the Eddings plays last ALCS).

Plate umpires ought to go down the first base line on a ground ball and no one on base and when BU goes out on fly balls to right field. Some mechanics have plate umpires rotaing all over the place and base umpire covering different places as well. I come from the school of thought the plate umpire covers first on fly balls to right and touches and appeals at first when BU is out or inside covering other bases or the ball, appeals at third, and virtually all plays at the plate. I don't prefer the plate umpire at second and the base umpire at the plate. In run downs, plate up needs to move up to the appropriate corner bag, unless multiple runners and then he stays to cover home.

Referee magazine has some great charts and articles on some of these things and even has publish some booklets on these subjects. All officials need to be a member of NASO (National Association of Sports Officials), the NFHS Officials group, or similar organization as they provide liability insurance for any organized game in any sport. This is a must.

Do not ever play after a game is over by rules. You set youself up for liability. For example, a league has a 10 run rule, but they ask you to stay so "Johnny can pitch an inning." You can't do this in this day and age. Also if a game is called, suspended, forfeited becase one team does not have sufficient players, don't officiate the "practice game." If something happens, you set yourself and your association up for liability. Let the League and organization deal with a team not having enough players, and that includes when a team has nine players and one is injured or ejected. The game is over!!!! In NFHS rules, a team may play with less than nine so that is the exception. Local rules, unless they have the blessing of the national organization in writing, should not try to do this to you, as an official.

www.naso.org

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va_Custom/vimdisplays/contentpagedisplay.cfm?content_id=270

[Ursa Major]

But I disagree with you about there not being much difference between two kids of different height in relation to where their knees are.PopTop, I'm not talking about the extreme cases, but where there's maybe a five inch difference between the average kid and a short (but not dwarfish) kid. There, I've regularly seen umps seem to decide that there's the one kid for whom no ball will be too low unless it's actually in the dirt . In fact, I'll predict that kid on each team before the game starts, and more often than not among a variety of umpires I'll see that tendency. This is for under-12 leagues and below with amateur umpires, to be sure.

BlueSteve said: If keeping a lineup, keep track of the score,..., warnings and ejections, and most importantly, that cute brunette in the front row's phone number.http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/bernice_gera_2.gifOkay, and how many phone numbers have been offered to you -- or any umpire -- by a cute female of any hair coloration in your career at a ballgame. I think I can count the number of umpire groupies on the toes of one hand! There's nothing flattering about umpire garb. It's just a reality of life that the uniform looks better on women, like ol' pioneer Bernice Gera here.

[Bluesteve32]

Okay, and how many phone numbers have been offered to you -- or any umpire -- by a cute female of any hair coloration in your career at a ballgame. I think I can count the number of umpire groupies on the toes of one hand!

I definately got one working the bases about 15 years ago, no lineup card, though. ;)

Actually, I have gotten a few comments in a pic I have in my plate stuff. The pullover shirts are much better looking than the old style umpire uniforms with the short billed cap. Tom Hanks' comments to the one umpire in League of Their Own actually was quite humerous, and accurate. I would have tossed him, too.

[bbjunkie]

I think I can count the number of umpire groupies on the toes of one hand! There's nothing flattering about umpire garb. It's just a reality of life that the uniform looks better on women, like ol' pioneer Bernice Gera here.

There's a father and son who umpire our league. The son is a 20 something and by all womens' account, he is HOT. They love to watch him ump. Both of them are very good umps and the kid helped us coach a tournament team we put together last year. They're nice guys and know their baseball.

[Ursa Major]

There's a father and son who umpire our league. The son is a 20 something and by all womens' account, he is HOT. They love to watch him ump. Well, when I was umping as a 17 year old, I didn't get any attention whatsoever from women. And now you're saying it wasn't necessarily because of the unflattering uniforms or the fact that everyone hates the umpire -- but rather, it may have been ... gulp ... me?
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/umpire.jpg

[PopTop]

This continues to be one of the most informative and entertaining threads I've read at this site in the four years or so I've been a member :clapping

First and foremost, there are a lot of little league moms these days I 'd love to give my number to. However, they are mostly about half half my age and living in a small town, well, y'all get the picture ;)

[bbjunkie]

Well, when I was umping as a 17 year old, I didn't get any attention whatsoever from women. And now you're saying it wasn't necessarily because of the unflattering uniforms or the fact that everyone hates the umpire -- but rather, it may have been ... gulp ... me?
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/umpire.jpg


Nah, that can't be it. Your pants probably weren't tight enough.

[bbjunkie]

First and foremost, there are a lot of little league moms these days I 'd love to give my number to. However, they are mostly about half half my age and living in a small town, well, y'all get the picture ;)

I hear ya. Life just ain't fair.

[Ursa Major]

Bluesteve said: Do not ever play after a game is over by rules. You set youself up for liability. *** Also if a game is called, suspended, forfeited becase one team does not have sufficient players, don't officiate the "practice game." If something happens, you set yourself and your association up for liability. Let the League and organization deal with a team not having enough players, and that includes when a team has nine players and one is injured or ejected. The game is over!!!! Steve, this has always annoyed me as a Dad. We were in a municipal summer league last year, and they scheduled a bunch of 3:30 weekday games. Invariably, we'd have 14 kids and the other team 5 or 6, 'cuz their kids were off at camp (our team had largely inner city kids). The umps would call the game and head off, still getting full pay. We'd lend a few players and play a few innings for fun.

Why couldn't the City have incorporated "practice" games into both their contracts with umpires and their insurance? Why is there greater liability? The rules and equipment are the same. It's supposed to be a fun league anyway, but this way kids can play with virtually no pressure. It's tough for Dads to ump those games, because they're not experienced and don't have safety equipment.

[Bluesteve32]

I know what you are saying and "in the old days" we would stay for everyone to get their at bats, unless a lot of horseplay began.

Now in this day and age where you have every ambulance chaser looking for a lawsuit, the presence of the qualified officials give this type of game the feel of something sanctioned, which means, if something happened, then lawsuits galore. Now if there are no umpires, it becomes a scrimmage or a practice and anything would fall under the league insurance. Many officials are told, in any sport, not to work those games by the insurance carriers including NASO and NFOIA, the two groups that provide the liability insurance to its members. Also, many umpires are unaware or simply have not joined either one of these groups and don't want to lose their homes or businesses over a "non-game."

In basketball, some of the local schools want to play a "fifth quarter" with the resreves. No qualified official dares to stay for one of those. There is nothing to gain and if the real game ended in any sort of controversy, the officals staying that extra fifteen minutes is not the most comfortable situation.

[WonderMonkey]

Back to the first post of the thread.....

I disagree on some points. While I really like your philosophy on catching I teach framing if the catcher is able to handle it. No jerking the ball back into the strike zone or anything but using different parts of the catcher’s mitt to receive the ball can do much of what you suggested in the catcher shifting his/her body to receive the ball. If the umpire is used to seeing the catcher receive the ball in the traditional part of the mitt then on a pitch just off the plate the catcher can receive the ball in the webbing and it gives the appearance it may have caught the corner. Am I being confusing? It sort of buys an inch or so.

I also tell my catchers that you can’t do this all the time as it is insulting, just as you mentioned. But used sparingly when needed it can get a call here and there.

Also I don’t really agree with the shifting of the body to buy a close strike. I feel that if the catcher has to shift the umpire may see that as having to go get a ball out of the strike zone.

As I am a pitcher turned pitching/catching coach I am eager to discuss this. Either by letting me know I mis-read your post or by discussing the point further. I am always willing to change my mind based on some good information.

[Ursa Major]

If the umpire is used to seeing the catcher receive the ball in the traditional part of the mitt then on a pitch just off the plate the catcher can receive the ball in the webbing and it gives the appearance it may have caught the corner. Am I being confusing? It sort of buys an inch or so.

I also tell my catchers that you can’t do this all the time as it is insulting, just as you mentioned. But used sparingly when needed it can get a call here and there.

Also I don’t really agree with the shifting of the body to buy a close strike. I feel that if the catcher has to shift the umpire may see that as having to go get a ball out of the strike zone.Good points, WM. It takes a pretty good catcher to know exactly where the pitch is going to land to catch the outside (to a righty) pitch in the webbing so that most of the glove is in the strike zone. Still, your point is crystal clear, as is the point about using the "frame" sparingly. As far as shifting the body, I think it means in situations where you have a really good control pitcher, the catcher actually sets up for the pitch with his body moved over a few inches, so that the ball caught between his knees may still be a ball. If he has to move his body as the pitch is coming in to get to the ball, it certainly will look like he's had to move out of the strike zone.

A similar issue is catching the low pitch. Is it a kiss of death if the catcher turns his glove over to catch a low pitch underhanded? I don't like catchers snagging low pitches backhanded, but they may be giving their pitcher his only shot at a strike on the pitches just below or at the knees.

[WonderMonkey]

As far as shifting the body, I think it means in situations where you have a really good control pitcher, the catcher actually sets up for the pitch with his body moved over a few inches, so that the ball caught between his knees may still be a ball. If he has to move his body as the pitch is coming in to get to the ball, it certainly will look like he's had to move out of the strike zone.

Ah! Yes! Agreed. That is such a fundemental part of catching that wasn't even thinking of it. A catching setting up to the pitch location is essential. It also allows the pitcher to focus on the mitt (location) and have a better chance of hitting his spot.



A similar issue is catching the low pitch. Is it a kiss of death if the catcher turns his glove over to catch a low pitch underhanded? I don't like catchers snagging low pitches backhanded, but they may be giving their pitcher his only shot at a strike on the pitches just below or at the knees.

I feel the catcher should not turn the mitt over unless he needs to in order to control the ball. It is difficult to get a catcher to trust how low he can go and not turn over. Tons of repetition with just tossing the ball underhand from about 10' gets that started. There is a point where it is right and where it is not.

[Catchingcoach]

WonderMonkey and Ursa Major,

Great thoughts,

WM you wrote,

Also I don’t really agree with the shifting of the body to buy a close strike. I feel that if the catcher has to shift the umpire may see that as having to go get a ball out of the strike zone.

and Ursa you wrote:

If he has to move his body as the pitch is coming in to get to the ball, it certainly will look like he's had to move out of the strike zone

The purpose of the weight shift is not to buy a close strike, it is to keep the close strike looking like a strike. It is to ensure that as the umpire looks over the catchers left shoudler at the pitch on the inside edge of the plate the widest thing he sees is the outside of the left shoulder. His eyes then travel down the catcher arm "towards" home plate, not away from home plate, and he then sees the outside edge of the glove hanging right over the edge of the plate. The balls in the glove, he's gotta say strike.

If the catcher didn't shift his weight, taking his shoulders with him, then as the umpire looks over the catchers left shoulder, the outside of the left shoulder is inside the glove. The left arm will extend out away from the body, and away from the plate. The umpires eyes will travel down the arm and be carried away from the plate by the time the eyes get to the glove.

This technique works only when the catcher is an agressive receiver and is commited to beating the ball to the spot. He will have "moved" at a time when the umpire does not have a good line of sight to the catcher. Therfore his slight shift will not be associated with "going to get a ball out of the zone"

The technique I teach, and I have very young (8-10 yr olds) catchers that do it very well, is best looked at after grasping a subtle concept of where the umpires eyes go during a pitch with the 60ft pitching distance. What he sees and what is out of his sight line.

1. Catcher giving sign ……………………..…umps eyes down at catcher

2. Catcher shifts to receiving position………. umps eyes down at catcher but rising to pitcher

3. Pitcher begins windup…………………….. umps eyes up at pitcher-catcher out of sightline

4. Pitch just before release point…………umps eyes up at ball in pitchers hand- catcher out of sightline

5. Ball just released……………………………. umps eyes up at ball- catcher out of sightline

6. Ball in flight………………………………… umps eyes up at ball- catcher out of sightline

7. Ball in flight until 6feet before plate………… umps eyes up at ball, starting to drop toward plate, catcher is now in lower peripheral vision.

8. Ball at plate, over plate……………………….umps eyes following ball, all movements of catcher are now noticed.

There is a window of time that the catcher is not in the direct line of sight and if his movements are soft, smooth, and end with the glove getting to the contact point before the ball, then it will appear to the ump that he was always sitting just in that location.

And yes, the time a catcher has to make this move is short, and not every catcher will master it. But it will still be a better "look" to a pitch if the shoulders are at the edge of the strike zone and the glove is postioned inside the shoulders, rather then the shoulders stay put and the arm is extended out at an angle away from the body that will send the umpire eyes away from the plate instead of back towards the plate.

Okay.....take a deep breath and give me your thoughts.

[WonderMonkey]

Very nice. All I can say is "sounds good" but I will pay attention for a few games to see what is "typical". Probably matches your sequence.

And if the catcher has has a wider stance and can sway a bit then I can see it working. If they are sitting back then of course that sway is effectively dimenished.

Thanks for taking the time to spell all that out. Again I'll pay attention and report back.

[Catchingcoach]

And if the catcher has has a wider stance and can sway a bit then I can see it working. If they are sitting back then of course that sway is effectively dimenished.

WM, he doesn't need a "wider" stance. They just need to to be set up so their heels touch the ground and their toes are pointed up the baselines. This now "unlocks" their hips and lets them "sway" side to side.

Go to the link below and see a collection of pics from my 2005 summer camps. Look at #14 that has the heading "Showing what umpire sees Good"
The pitch being demonstrated is the pitch I described earlier.

This catcher is in a small tight crouch, heels on the ground, toes up the base lines, and very able to shift his midline left or right as described.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/catchingcamp/my_photos

[WonderMonkey]

I mis-spoke on the wider stance. I was thinking and it didn't make it to the keyboard. A normal "no man on base" stance is sufficient but it is more relaxed then a "man on base" stance. Different ability to sway with those two stances.

[Ursa Major]

Coach, I caught for maybe six years and I never game a moment's thought to those "what the ump sees" and "ump's sightline" issues. That's wicked good stuff. I'm impressed. Very impressed.

[Bluesteve32]

I never realized how important a catcher was to a team until I started to umpire. Then I realized a good catcher make pitching even better.

Whn I instruct newer umpires, those just starting out, I tel them, no matterthe age, to get some kind of rapport with the catchers, call as many strikes as possible, and don't be afraid to tell the catcher what you expect. Talk about "pulling" the ball into the strike zone (often called framing), and try not to do it.

I also tell these guys, "If the catcher sets up even with the plate, and catches a ball 'between the shin guards,' it out to be called a strike." Also, when a catcher catches a fastball at his knees, it virtually alway is a good rule of thumb for that low end of the zone, and works almost any age.

I find newer umpires have trouble with calling the low end of the zone and either call too much of the corners (way inside or outside) but more often have a "shoebox" for a strike zone.

The pop up catcher will lose strikes for the pitcher (don't ask, "Hey blue, where was that pitch," when YOU saw him pop up, for he has no clue where that pitch was) as well as that borderline pitch that is not caught by the catcher. I mean if a pitch is not handled by the catcher, don't expect that one to be rung up.

Lastly, some umpires will use "preventative officiating" when it comes to the pitchers and balks. I often tell the catcher, "Hey, go out there and tell your pitcher to make sure he comes to a complete stop before coming to the plate." (Or some other similar delivery problem). Catcher will then go to the mound and convey my warning. Also if there seems to be a screw up in communication, like when the catcher goes out for a pitchout, and the ball is coming down the middle, I will tell the catcher emphatically, "Hey, (first name or catcher), go out and make sure you and your pitcher is on the same page." Afterall, he does not like the fact a pitch is coming at him with no catcher in front of him. ;)

[WonderMonkey]

Framing is not just pulling the ball back into the zone. It's also catching the ball in different parts of the mitt that can sometimes buy an inch or two.

[Bluesteve32]

Framing is not just pulling the ball back into the zone. It's also catching the ball in different parts of the mitt that can sometimes buy an inch or two.

Why should one pull the ball back into the zone? Most experienced umpires really don't like that, you realize. As they progress up the ladder in baseball, that habit hurts their pitcherrather that helps most pitchers. Trying to fool undertrained volunteer umpires is one thing, but well trained (often by professionals at clinics) umpires who work the best levels of amateur ball, it really becomes insulting.

[WonderMonkey]

Why should one pull the ball back into the zone? Most experienced umpires really don't like that, you realize. As they progress up the ladder in baseball, that habit hurts their pitcherrather that helps most pitchers. Trying to fool undertrained volunteer umpires is one thing, but well trained (often by professionals at clinics) umpires who work the best levels of amateur ball, it really becomes insulting.

I'm not saying they should. I was thinking someone above thought it was just pulling back into the zone so I clarified.

I don't consider framing to include pulling the ball back into the zone but some put it in there.

[Bluesteve32]

I'm not saying they should. I was thinking someone above thought it was just pulling back into the zone so I clarified.

I don't consider framing to include pulling the ball back into the zone but some put it in there.

Understood. A true frame may help get some of those borderline pitches, I just tell the catcher to hold it there, they would be more likely to get those pitches.