HEY COCO: welcome to BOSTON

[RichardLikeWhoa]

its not 100% offical...

but hey welcome to FENWAY PARK COCO!


Theo is a genius..

LETS GO RED SOX:D

[South Side Hitmen]

If this goes down, it's an absolute steal for the Red Sox. Coco Crisp is one hell of a centerfielder. In fact, I think that if this deal is made, having Crisp in center for the long run will be better than having Damon.

Meanwhile, I'd be glad to see Crisp leave the AL Central, where he has been a little pest against the White Sox.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

As far as I know, it is far from official.

But IF, has the Indians management gone mad? How on earth could they Crisp let go???

[runningshoes]

ESPN is reporting they have a agreed on a deal in principle, whatever the hell that means.

I like it so far.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

ESPN is reporting they have a agreed on a deal in principle, whatever the hell that means.

I like it so far.

Good move for Boston.

Why could the Yankees not think of this?:grouchy

[Sberl]

If Coco goes to Boston...that's a good move for the Redsox, very good move.

[SoxSon]

Looks like there are several kinks to work out first. Let's not be overly hasty! :D

[BoofBonser26]

I agree with all you BoSox fans-this would be a steal for you. Unless you give us Manny and agree to pay his contract or something.

What are you thinking, Shapiro? Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(please be rumor, please be rumor...)

[South Side Hitmen]

I agree with all you BoSox fans-this would be a steal for you. Unless you give us Manny and agree to pay his contract or something.

What are you thinking, Shapiro? Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(please be rumor, please be rumor...)

If Shapiro does this, can he please give his Exec of the Year award to Kenny Williams (who was more deserving anyway:grouchy )?

[Mattingly]

Didn't Boston give up Marte for this Coco? I think he, along with Hanley Ramirez, were their two biggest blue chippers.

[moebarguy]

Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett was a steal for the Red Sox. It's not as if Hanley was putting up unbelievable stats in the minors...The way you can look at this Indians deal is basically Edgar Renteria for Coco Crisp -- which is another steal for the Red Sox.

[DoubleX]

This would be a great deal for the Red Sox. Crisp is young and on the up. Not sure why the Indians want to make this deal, given that Crisp is very much a part of a young and developing nucleus they have in place. Anyway, Crisp is already almost as good as Damon, plus he's 6 years younger. A great deal for the Sox. It's not like giving up Marte is going to hurt the Sox anyway since I think Marte was acquired just to be trade bait for a deal like this one.

[FlashGordon]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2301457

This is more rumor than anything else because there are no real details, but the latest from ESPN is that Marte and Mota will be moved and that Alex Gonzalez could be our new SS. Stay tuned.

[Evangelion]

1. Coco Crisp
2. Mark Loretta
3. David Ortiz
4. Manny Rameriz
5. Jason Varitek
6. Trot Nixon
7. Mike Lowell
8. Kevin Youkilis/J.T. Snow
9. Alex Gonzalez

Bold players are not on our team yet, but I do like that line-up. Crisp is young, he's 27, on the rise. The main chip the Indians get is Marte, who I really didn't part with, but since we're getting young talent in return, I'm all for it. Mota help the Indians off-set the hit they took to their bullpen losing Howry. I didn't want to Mota to be dealt, but I guess there is no way around it.

Good deal for the Sox. Won't say it's a steal since we really don't know how good Marte will be MLB in the future at this moment. Still, I want this official, Sox to sign Gonzalez and have Crisp at the top and I think our off-season was so horrible then.

[DoubleX]

1. Coco Crisp
2. Mark Loretta
3. David Ortiz
4. Manny Rameriz
5. Jason Varitek
6. Trot Nixon
7. Mike Lowell
8. Kevin Youkilis/J.T. Snow
9. Alex Gonzalez

That lineup looks a whole lot better than it did a day ago. At this stage, I'd rather have Crisp than Damon. Crisp is already almost as good and should continue to improve given that he's only 26.

[Mattingly]

Bold players are not on our team yet, but I do like that line-up. Crisp is young, he's 27, on the rise. The main chip the Indians get is Marte, who I really didn't part with, but since we're getting young talent in return, I'm all for it. Mota help the Indians off-set the hit they took to their bullpen losing Howry. I didn't want to Mota to be dealt, but I guess there is no way around it.

Good deal for the Sox. Won't say it's a steal since we really don't know how good Marte will be MLB in the future at this moment. Still, I want this official, Sox to sign Gonzalez and have Crisp at the top and I think our off-season was so horrible then.
That lineup does look good. Seems like a move that Theo would do. If Coco does well, then a certain semi-cult figure may not even be worried about much (unless for 19x a year or so). :D

Report: Tribe, Sox close on Crisp deal
Indians would add Marte, Mota, pursue OF in separate move (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060122&content_id=1299184&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp)

CLEVELAND -- The Indians are reportedly close to shipping outfielder Coco Crisp to the Red Sox for a package that includes reliever Guillermo Mota and third-base prospect Andy Marte.
The Boston Herald and Boston Globe both had reports on the potential deal in their Sunday editions, with the Herald reporting it was agreed upon in principle, contingent on the Indians first finding a replacement for Crisp in the outfield.

According to the Herald report, the Indians would spur the Crisp deal by sending left-hander Arthur Rhodes or right-hander Rafael Betancourt to the Phillies for outfielder Jason Michaels or by acquiring free agent Jeff DaVanon.

An Indians team spokesman had no comment on the newspaper reports.

[Mattingly]

I agree with all you BoSox fans-this would be a steal for you. Unless you give us Manny and agree to pay his contract or something.

What are you thinking, Shapiro? Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(please be rumor, please be rumor...)
Since you're a Cleveland fan, what does he bring to the table? Someone on another board said that his arm, plate discipline and stealing hasn't been too hot. How've you felt about him, in each of as an outfielder (he's played both LF & CF), on the basepaths, and what he does at the plate?

[yankeekiller34BigPapi]

Johnny who? :D :clapping
So long to those "idiot" days, Damon is forgotten about now. :waving

[BoofBonser26]

Since you're a Cleveland fan, what does he bring to the table? Someone on another board said that his arm, plate discipline and stealing hasn't been too hot. How've you felt about him, in each of as an outfielder (he's played both LF & CF), on the basepaths, and what he does at the plate?
While I have a more objective opinion, he's a huge fan favorite who brings people to the Jake (something they really need). Goofy hair (just what Boston needs), unique batting stance, fun-loving personality...

He's one of those guys with tons of intagibles in personality and flair that makes him better than .300/15/70 (or at least an entertaining .300/15/70). And his speed is developing, but it certainly needs work. Great fielding BUT a horrible arm. He has suprising power for his size. He's still raw in some areas, but developing and entering his prime.

Overall, while now that I think about Marte it may make sense long run for the Tribe, you hate to loose your fan favorite. (Although this opens the door for Grady Sizemore to inherit the role).

[Sean Casey]

Great fielding BUT a horrible arm.

He has to be an improvement over Damon's arm. Then again, Bernie Williams would be an improvement too. Heck, half the fans in the bleachers would probably be improvements.

[VTSoxFan]

This morning's latest, according to the Boston Globe:

Sox Agree to Crisp Deal (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/23/source_sox_agree_to_crisp_deal/)

To Boston: OF Coco Crisp, P David Riske, C Josh Bard

To Cleveland: P Guierrmo Mota, IF Andy Marte, C Kelly Shoppach

The deal is contingent upon physicals, and Mota's past arm trouble might be a bone of contention.

I didn't know Riske was part of the deal, but that's pretty cool. He had the 5th-best WHIP in the league last season, though he did allow 11 homers in something like 78 innings. Moving Marte also clears a more defined space for Youk. I don't know how Shoppach and Bard compare -- gotta do some reading.

[Mattingly]

Johnny who? :D :clapping
So long to those "idiot" days, Damon is forgotten about now. :waving
Welllllllllllll now, let me see. Per the "Nomah's better" remarks from years past, will we now receive, "Coco's better"? :D

C'mon, a little encouragement to the masses never nobody. :p

[Mattingly]

While I have a more objective opinion, he's a huge fan favorite who brings people to the Jake (something they really need). Goofy hair (just what Boston needs), unique batting stance, fun-loving personality...

He's one of those guys with tons of intagibles in personality and flair that makes him better than .300/15/70 (or at least an entertaining .300/15/70). And his speed is developing, but it certainly needs work. Great fielding BUT a horrible arm. He has suprising power for his size. He's still raw in some areas, but developing and entering his prime.

Overall, while now that I think about Marte it may make sense long run for the Tribe, you hate to loose your fan favorite. (Although this opens the door for Grady Sizemore to inherit the role).
Boof, thanks for a great reply! :D

What kinds of "intangibles" does he bring? Does he have a knack for when to bunt, when to steal, when to take an extra base when running, which base to throw to? I love hearing about the "little extra things" that guys add to the game. :p

[Mattingly]

To Boston: OF Coco Crisp, P David Riske, C Josh Bard

To Cleveland: P Guierrmo Mota, IF Andy Marte, C Kelly Shoppach
So with Hanley Ramirez, Andy Marte gone, aren't those the top two Boston farmhands? Also, since Marte played 3B, do they still have anyone down there to field that?

I've heard on another board he was mostly trade bait, but people have differing opinions. I wasn't too sure that Shoppach was more than trade bait merely being auditioned.

[Evangelion]

Riske? I recall the deal involving the Red Sox getting two low level prospect along with Coco while the Sox give Cleveland Mota and Marte. Also speculation that Manny Delcarmen might be involved. Why would Cleveland want Shoppach when they got Victor Martinez? Though, Riske or Mota might be dealt to get a replacement for Coco, if dealt, and I heard they're talking to the Phillies about Michaels.

[BoofBonser26]

Boof, thanks for a great reply! :D

What kinds of "intangibles" does he bring? Does he have a knack for when to bunt, when to steal, when to take an extra base when running, which base to throw to? I love hearing about the "little extra things" that guys add to the game. :p
Coco's big "intangible" is his bunting and his fielding flair. I don't know enough (I usually listen to games on the radio) to know if he takes the extra base or not. I know he's crazy fast, but that doesn't show in his SB totals, which makes me think he's not among the wisest base runners. However, Eric Wedge ignores the running game. It'd be interesting to see what he'd do when turned loose. I think he could get to 40 SB. (but maybe caught 15-20 times).

He's a fan fave for several reasons. The biggest thing is his name. After that comes his attitude-every time you see him, you know he's a kid at heart, and he's loving every minute of playing baseball as his job.

He's got a unique stance. He always holds the bat in his lower hand (he switch hits) and gently rests the bat against his other hand, the fingers of which drum along the bat handle at a constant flurry. As he does this, he has this thing where he jams his chin deep into his shoulder. I've never seen anything like it.

Even if he hit .220 and was a reserve, he'd be my favorite player to watch.


To Boston: OF Coco Crisp, P David Riske, C Josh Bard

To Cleveland: P Guierrmo Mota, IF Andy Marte, C Kelly Shoppach
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this anywhere close to the final version I hate it more than ever. Riske is a great reliever, slowly working his way toward the closer's role, and Bard, it's widely said, would be starting if not for a certain Victor Martinez. So, the Tribe gives up a minor star OF, an average C, and an above average reliever for an above? average reliever, prospect at least a year away, and Shoppach I don't know enough about.

Getting a C makes no sense. Is Shoppach a prospect? No need with Martinez locked up long term. Is he a veteran? The Tribe just signed C Tim Laker to a minor-league deal, and they've got superstar prospect C Ryan Garko dying for a shot at the bigs. (Garko's being converted to 1B, but if having him play C gets him here earlier, excellent.)

This latest version is a steal for Boston.

[DoubleX]

Getting a C makes no sense. Is Shoppach a prospect? No need with Martinez locked up long term. Is he a veteran? The Tribe just signed C Tim Laker to a minor-league deal, and they've got superstar prospect C Ryan Garko dying for a shot at the bigs. (Garko's being converted to 1B, but if having him play C gets him here earlier, excellent.)

This latest version is a steal for Boston.

A couple of years ago, Shoppach was regarded as one of the best (if not the best) catching prospect in baseball. However, his path to the majors stalled, not sure why, but he should have broken in by now if the reports of two years ago were indicative of anything. But you're right, makes no sense for Cleveland given that they have Victor Martinez. The only thing I could think of is that Cleveland is planning on letting Martinez walk when he gets to free agency rather than give him a big payday and that Shoppach is meant to replace him when that day comes.

Also, while I think this deal is a bad one for Cleveland, Marte could turn out to become a star (and many people think there is a good chance of that). It may take a year or two though for Marte to start showing his ability at the ML level. The head-scratcher is that Cleveland is built to compete now, and has a young core in place that should only improve. Taking Crisp away seems to be a step backwards for the immediate future.

[Evangelion]

Red Sox ignore the running game, too. I don't think we'll be able to see Coco's stealing abilities in Boston, if he end up in Boston. He was 15 for 21 last year, if he does steal bases more often, he'll probably be caught around 15 times like you said, Boof. Still, I'll be shocked if the Sox decide to run him with Mark up, I predict, batting after him, then the big bats after in Ortiz and Manny.

I don't know if that deal is reasonable or just a baseless rumor, Boof. Marte has been shipped around lately, but if he's so prize, then why Altanta part with him to get Edgar Renteria, when the Braves could have easily went out and trade for another SS without giving up Marte or even sign a free agent SS like Alex Gonzalez for one year. I question Marte's value. Some people think the Red Sox are getting the short end of this deal.

Shoppach is catching prospect for the Sox. That's why I question why Shoppach being involved in this deal. Delcarmen instead of Shoppach, then this deal would make a little more sense, the deal you quoted by Boof.

Like I said, most likely deal should be Marte and Mota for Crisp. Then Indians go after Michaels from the Phillies, trading Rhodes, Riske or Mota to Phillies to bring Michaels in to replace Crisp. The deal, at this point, look good for the Indians. They get the high level prospect and still able to replace Crisp in the end.

Marte has been said not be the greatest hitter for average, but people have fear his power, even at the age of 22. All signs point to him being a great 3B or just another inconsistent Matt Williams. Still, only time will tell who good the better end of this deal.

Just keep in mind, Marte is know for his power, not his ability to hit for average.

[DoubleX]

I don't know if that deal is reasonable or just a baseless rumor, Boof. Marte has been shipped around lately, but if he's so prize, then why Altanta part with him to get Edgar Renteria, when the Braves could have easily went out and trade for another SS without giving up Marte or even sign a free agent SS like Alex Gonzalez for one year. I question Marte's value. Some people think the Red Sox are getting the short end of this deal.

Because the Red Sox are still going to pay Renteria 7 mil per, meaning the Braves got a SS, who before last year was All-Star caliber, for very cheap. Before last season, Renteria was far and away the best SS in the NL, and the Braves are banking for a bounceback. If Renteria comes anywhere close to his production before last year, the price will be a steal for a SS of that caliber for the Braves.

[FlashGordon]

So with Hanley Ramirez, Andy Marte gone, aren't those the top two Boston farmhands?Technically speaking, only Hanley Ramirez was in the Boston farm system. Marte was acquired via trade in the off-season and had yet to don any uniform of the Red Sox.

[cmonster17]

Well he definitely has the wheels to roam around in that big center field. Might take some getting use to. Remember, he's a left fielder, but I don't imagine he'll have any problems adjusting to center. He'll just have to adjust to playing next to Manny -- the one thing Damon did well was getting over there to help Ramirez when he was taking his figure-eight path to the ball.

More interested to see what kind of bat he brings to the top of the order. Lead-off switch-hitter...interesting.

[Mattingly]

Technically speaking, only Hanley Ramirez was in the Boston farm system. Marte was acquired via trade in the off-season and had yet to don any uniform of the Red Sox.
Thanks. He'd been acquired when Renteria was traded to the Braves, correct?

There is an ongoing discussion about this trade on another board. A Boston fan said that "value gets value", so in order to get Crisp, who's 6 years younger than you-know-who, they had to give up a body, and Marte's was it.

Someone also mentioned int his thread that Kelly Shoppach was traded, and elsewhere, someone mentioned that Kelly was one of the better backstops in the minors about 2 years ago.

While I definitely can see Boston's need to upgrade positions that were glaringly unfilled, I'm not too enthused about trading away too many farm guys. Toronto's upgrading, so parting with Vernon Wells isn't an option, but if Boston could've traded for Aaron Rowand before the ChiSox dealt him, that might've come at a cheaper player cost.

On the other hand, I could just be a little bit fussy tonight. :D

[Mattingly]

Well he definitely has the wheels to roam around in that big center field. Might take some getting use to. Remember, he's a left fielder, but I don't imagine he'll have any problems adjusting to center. He'll just have to adjust to playing next to Manny -- the one thing Damon did well was getting over there to help Ramirez when he was taking his figure-eight path to the ball.

More interested to see what kind of bat he brings to the top of the order. Lead-off switch-hitter...interesting.
There's a very deep portion of CF at Fenway that's like no-man's land out there. You'd practically need a golf cart to get out there, much less running.

Once finalized, he'll certainly earn his paycheck and prove his youth by running around that place.

[Jake83]

Truthfully Boston improved at center field with Crisp over Damon in fielding and as center field is the 2nd most important position on the field behind catcher I would take defense over a slight drop in offensive production

[DoubleX]

Truthfully Boston improved at center field with Crisp over Damon in fielding and as center field is the 2nd most important position on the field behind catcher I would take defense over a slight drop in offensive production

Shortstop?

[Jake83]

Shortstop?


The point is that for a center fielder defense should come first. I like Damon as a player but he is a below average center fielder and the Yankee may suffer because of him espically at Yankee Staduim.

[VTSoxFan]

There's a very deep portion of CF at Fenway that's like no-man's land out there. You'd practically need a golf cart to get out there, much less running.

Once finalized, he'll certainly earn his paycheck and prove his youth by running around that place.

Ah yes, The Triangle. 420'. the deepest part of the park, and hemmed in at odd angles. Last year Johnny ran into the metal fence that tops the bullpen wall and cut his face open. I hope Crisp gets well acquainted with the place before he starts running into walls.

I also hope he gets acquainted with Trot, and gets used to the idea of calling off the other fielders (as CF he would have precedence), because if he and Trot run into each other full-tilt--ughhhh :ughh :eek

[Jake83]

Jermey Reed would of been a better center fielder in Boston( A young Johnny Damon perhaps) Seattle is asking way too much for him.

[KCGHOST]

Despite all the chatter about this deal it still hasn't happened. Cleveland supposedly needs an OFer if they move Crisp. This means a third or fourth team has to be brought into the deal to make it happen. Somebody had better call Bill Beane.

[pacewon]

The point is that for a center fielder defense should come first. I like Damon as a player but he is a below average center fielder and the Yankee may suffer because of him espically at Yankee Staduim.

FWIW, Crisp has played 188 games in CF in his career, and sports a -12 RAA. In Damon's 1081 games in CF, he's a +7. Besides his arm, what evidence is there that he's a below average CF, as you say? I've heard quite the opposite.

[Mattingly]

Ah yes, The Triangle. 420'. the deepest part of the park, and hemmed in at odd angles. Last year Johnny ran into the metal fence that tops the bullpen wall and cut his face open. I hope Crisp gets well acquainted with the place before he starts running into walls.

I also hope he gets acquainted with Trot, and gets used to the idea of calling off the other fielders (as CF he would have precedence), because if he and Trot run into each other full-tilt--ughhhh :ughh :eek
I was thinking about Sections 36, 37 & 40 from this pic:

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/bos/ballpark/seating.jsp
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/images/ballpark/y2005/seating_745x615.gif

[VTSoxFan]

Yup, that's The Triangle. Balls hit in there often turn into triples or even in-the-park homers.

[DoubleX]

While I definitely can see Boston's need to upgrade positions that were glaringly unfilled, I'm not too enthused about trading away too many farm guys. Toronto's upgrading, so parting with Vernon Wells isn't an option, but if Boston could've traded for Aaron Rowand before the ChiSox dealt him, that might've come at a cheaper player cost.

Mattingly, need I remind you that you're a Yankee fan. You should be enthused that Boston is trading away its farm talent. :)

Though, I can't really object to much to the moves Boston has made. Yeah they traded away a blue-chip SS prospect (in Ramirez) but potentially got back an Ace pitcher that is himself still very young as well as potentially very 3Bman (if Lowell can bounce back). As for trading Marte, I think the Sox had obtained him just to trade for something else. In return they filled an immediate hole with a young and up and coming player in Crisp. Adding Shoppach to the package seemed kind of steep to me, but it's curious that he hasn't cracked the majors yet, so perhaps the Sox had just about given up on him anyway.

[DoubleX]

The point is that for a center fielder defense should come first. I like Damon as a player but he is a below average center fielder and the Yankee may suffer because of him espically at Yankee Staduim.

I don't want to quibble too much, but historically, SS has been a position that very much stresses defense above all-else. And teams, more often than not, will have a good defensive SS before they have a good defense CFer.

You're right about Damon though. He's not a particularly good defensive CFer. He makes poor reads and gets bad jumps at times. He does not charge balls well (often stopping short and letting them dunk in for hits). And his throwing arm is weak. All of these facets are likely to get worse in the coming years. I imagine that by the end of this contract, Damon will be about as valuable as Bernie Williams is now in CF, and that isn't much at all.

[thenextsuperstar]

I hate giving up Marte (i really think he is a 25-30 homer, 100 rbi thirdbaseman, who is above average defensivly), but if i have to, i need be a getting a guy like crisp in return.

Crisp should benefit from moving from the extreme pitchers park in Ohio to the hitters park in Boston.

[monty]

Crisp is a single hitters but in Boston can turn those singles into doubles. I think defensively he will dip in the hard, boston confines. Remember, Johnny Damon struggled for the first season and a half defensively in Boston.

[BoofBonser26]

FWIW, Crisp has played 188 games in CF in his career, and sports a -12 RAA. In Damon's 1081 games in CF, he's a +7. Besides his arm, what evidence is there that he's a below average CF, as you say? I've heard quite the opposite.
None. He's a speedy, slick-fielding CF who'd be Gold Glove, but...he couldn't throw out Manny.

Which is good, 'cause they'll be on the same team. :rolleyes:

[monty]

What a noodle arm for a centerfielder? I thought we was over that with JD!

[Evangelion]

Someone also mentioned int his thread that Kelly Shoppach was traded, and elsewhere, someone mentioned that Kelly was one of the better backstops in the minors about 2 years ago.
Shoppach is still with the Red Sox organization. He's on the 40-man roster.


Despite all the chatter about this deal it still hasn't happened. Cleveland supposedly needs an OFer if they move Crisp. This means a third or fourth team has to be brought into the deal to make it happen. Somebody had better call Bill Beane.
Cleveland, I believe, has discuss the a deal bring Jason Michaels from the Phillies to Cleveland in exchange for a relief pitcher. That's if they trade Coco Crisp. Cleveland will not have a hard time getting a player to replace Crisp, granted they won't replace him with a player as good as Crisp.

Red Sox need a lead-off hitter and CF. Crisp, at this point, seem like the most viable option. We could bring Reed in, but do you want his 255. batting average and 322. average at the top of the order? At this point, who else would lead-off on this team?

Lead-off position is extremely important and I don't recall seeing many people stress it's importance in this topic. We could have Rowand, but is he a hitter you can have leading-off. This deal answer two needs, which is CF and lead-off. Lead-off hitter is where almost half of Manny and Ortiz's RBI come from.

[Mattingly]

Anyone hear that Guillermo Mota failed his physical? If so, that may be holding up the deal.

[Mattingly]

Yup, that's The Triangle. Balls hit in there often turn into triples or even in-the-park homers.
I remember about last year, Bernie, who'd gone from making great catches on some days to letting them drop in front of him on others, made one fantastic catch in about that area. I couldn't believe he'd caught that.

How'd ahhhhhhhhhh ... Coco's predecessor (yeah, that's the ticket) do in handling catches to that area? Must've required lots of wheels, as it seemed like a physical challenge getting there quickly.

[VTSoxFan]

He did okay. I remember seeing him (more than once) leaping vertically, fully extended, and catch a ball that would have hit the wall about eight feet above the ground. I also remember seeing him lose track of the ball and race back and helplessly wave at it as it looped over his head into that weird little corner.

I remember Bernie's catch too. Grrrrrhhhhhhhrhrhrh!!!

[pacewon]

None. He's a speedy, slick-fielding CF who'd be Gold Glove, but...he couldn't throw out Manny.

Which is good, 'cause they'll be on the same team. :rolleyes:

I was referring to Damon. I know he's got one of the weakest arms in the game, but his range has been criticized several times on this thread as well. I've yet to see any evidence that he doesn't cover a lot of ground in CF.

Here's a link to the Mota thing:

http://rotoworld.com/includes/topblurbs.asp?sport=MLB

[Mattingly]

I was referring to Damon. I know he's got one of the weakest arms in the game, but his range has been criticized several times on this thread as well. I've yet to see any evidence that he doesn't cover a lot of ground in CF.
Damon seems to use his speed to get to lots of balls. Seems like the way Bernie was a few years ago. Thing is, I'm not certain how much longer that speed will get him from Point A to Point B that efficiently.

As mentioned upthread, his main value could be as a leadoff hitter. The more speedy ducks on the pond, the better the tater mashers can do their job.

[BoofBonser26]

Put this one on hold.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060124&content_id=1300059&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp

[VTSoxFan]

I just saw that too. Dang... I don't want to get rid of Delcarmen, as was mentioned in the article I read.

[DoubleX]

I don't understand why they don't just drop Mota and Riske from the deal anyway? I don't quite them being included in the deal, particularly since Riske is better than Mota. It's not like Boston has the upper hand in this deal and should be getting the better package (which they are), Cleveland has the upperhand since Boston is a) Desperate; b) Getting a very good and young CFer.

Also, I don't know if this is the case here or not, but I think sometimes teams use the physicals as a way to get out of a deal they've reconsidered since making it. I don't know if that's the case here, but Cleveland is built to compete this year, and trading Crisp away will hurt those efforts (even if Marte becomes the better player in the long run). For a mid-market team like Cleveland, in which sustaining a successful roster is unlikely due to the financial hardships, this team has to take its chances when it has it before its young talent outgrows the team's budget forcing the team back to rebuilding.

[Boston Boxer]

Cleveland wants Delcarmen, so this is a way to get him. Mota is fine. He has been cleared by Florida, Boston, and Dr Andrews. Cleveland is putting the squeeze on us for Delcarmen which sucks. No way do i give up Delcarmen in this deal.

[DoubleX]

I have read that a potential 3-way deal that was nixed a few weeks ago might be revived since the factor that impeded that deal (then Reds GM) has been removed (fired last week). This deal would send Matt Clement to the Reds, who would send Austin Kearns to Cleveland who would then send Coco Crisp to Boston. That seems like a pretty sensible deal all around. Reds get starting pitching that they desperately need while getting rid of one of their extra OFers (though I've read that Adam Dunn will play 1B this year, making room for Griffey, Pena, and Kearns in the OF at the same time); while Boston gets the CFer which it is in desperate need of and gives up a starter when the team has starters to spare (either Arroyo or Papelbon can take Clement's spot); while Cleveland gets an ML quality bat that can add some pop to the lineup.

[Boston Boxer]

yes, I just finished reading that...I like that much better.

[pesky6]

Cleveland wants Delcarmen, so this is a way to get him. Mota is fine. He has been cleared by Florida, Boston, and Dr Andrews. Cleveland is putting the squeeze on us for Delcarmen which sucks. No way do i give up Delcarmen in this deal.

I don't know if I'd be too upset about giving up Delcarmen. It wouldn't be the greatest, but I'd rather see him go than Pap, Hansen, or Lester.

As far as the three-way that XX mentioned, I'd rather see that possibility than than the other.

[pronk48]

Hooray Us. well i know that wont kill the deal but it does force Boston to sweeten the deal for us. I did feel mota was a worthy replacement but now ive heard talk about boston sending clement to the Reds and we getting kearns. that along with the reliever who i cant remember along with Stoppach and Marte makes the deal pretty close to gaining. In my eyes the indians lose alot more in crisp than than the red sox gain. You have to remember that the indians are built on chemistry and as a unit. crisp's removal dispruts that chemistry and the unit is no longer whole. he was key player in the late success that almost took u guys out. The indians are a weaker team but hopefully when(because as much as i hate it it will go through eventually) we trade crisp we are well compensated. Go Tribe. Every second, Everyday

[Mattingly]

Put this one on hold.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060124&content_id=1300059&vkey=hotstove2005&fext=.jsp
Either my name is Oliver Stone, or I just could be the only one who thinks that these failed medical tests are of the "Now that we've got you interested, you'll have to give us just a little bit more to keep us happy" types of things.

How could the renowned Dr James Andrews give Guillermo Mota a passing grade, yet Cleveland's docs fail him?

[Boston Boxer]

that is exactly what i was talking about Matt...all of a sudden he fails a physical, after passing 3. I smell a rat

[Evangelion]

Delcarmen is a young arm. You should be angry if we give him up and Andy Marte.

DoubleX, Dunn will be playing 1B full time for the Reds next season with the departure of Casey. If Kearns was dealt, the Reds would move Pena out to right, he's currently setup to start LF for full-time taking over Dunn's position. Instead of Pena, the Reds can option for Freel or Womack to start in LF.

Since the Reds need pitching badly, I can see them making this deal, if the Sox cover some of Clement's contract, I assume. When Harang is your number one starter on your team without a closer, having Clement in that rotation would help a lot.

[Mattingly]

that is exactly what i was talking about Matt...all of a sudden he fails a physical, after passing 3. I smell a rat
Sometimes I'm glad (for their sake, anyway) that these docs aren't dealing with the general public, since you can't "doctor" :D a physical's results that easily (pun intended, if you didn't catch the smiley). :p

In 2001, the Yanks wanted to trade with Montreal for Ugueth Urbina, but one of the Yankee relievers involved in the trade "failed" the Montreal physical. Consequently, Urbina also "failed" his Yankee physical. As it turned out, Montreal and the Yanks didn't seem to have a long trading history, so could've been something there, as in "We don't want to send him to you".

I'm thinking that Mota may have been acquired as trade bait, since Boston's in a need for a CF and SS. My hunch is that, since they've gotten top 3B prospect Marte away from Boston, they may be able to get even more.

Baseball is a funny business, and once teams feel that a team is in a great need for a player, they'll treat them like that team is in dire straits.

[Mattingly]

There's a lengthy article on this in the Globe:

Mota could still be part of deal (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/26/mota_could_still_be_part_of_deal/?rss_id=Red+Sox+stories+from+Boston.com)

General manager Theo Epstein, back on the job yesterday, offered a ''no comment" when asked how close the team is to closing a deal for a center fielder, then provided an evasive, ''There's plenty of time before Opening Day."

However, the unofficial deadline for completing a deal with Cleveland for Coco Crisp stands to be far sooner.

As of last night, the Sox and Indians were believed to be working toward a version of the six-player deal the clubs were close to completing before Guillermo Mota's physical Tuesday left the Indians displeased with the condition of his throwing shoulder.

The previous agreement, reached in principle Saturday pending physicals, was to send Mota, Andy Marte, and catcher Kelly Shoppach to the Indians for Crisp, reliever David Riske, and catcher Josh Bard.

[yankeekiller34BigPapi]

man, I hate to say it, but this deal looks dead in the water. The indians want Delcarmen on top of Marte, Shoppach, and Mota? Theo should tell them to go screw themselves. Yeah, that's a good idea, let's get rid of not two, but three of our top prospects, and a player we just got in November. I swear to god, if this deal goes through, I'm gonna send hate mails to the boston offices. :grouchy F*** the Indians!!!

[pesky6]

man, I hate to say it, but this deal looks dead in the water. The indians want Delcarmen on top of Marte, Shoppach, and Mota? Theo should tell them to go screw themselves. Yeah, that's a good idea, let's get rid of not two, but three of our top prospects, and a player we just got in November. I swear to god, if this deal goes through, I'm gonna send hate mails to the boston offices. :grouchy F*** the Indians!!!

I was under the impression that the Indians would take Delcarmen instead of Mota if that part of the trade didn't work out. Personally, I think the Tribe is putting the screws on Boston.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

I have read that a potential 3-way deal that was nixed a few weeks ago might be revived since the factor that impeded that deal (then Reds GM) has been removed (fired last week). This deal would send Matt Clement to the Reds, who would send Austin Kearns to Cleveland who would then send Coco Crisp to Boston. That seems like a pretty sensible deal all around. Reds get starting pitching that they desperately need while getting rid of one of their extra OFers (though I've read that Adam Dunn will play 1B this year, making room for Griffey, Pena, and Kearns in the OF at the same time); while Boston gets the CFer which it is in desperate need of and gives up a starter when the team has starters to spare (either Arroyo or Papelbon can take Clement's spot); while Cleveland gets an ML quality bat that can add some pop to the lineup.

That would just be a great deal.

I'm sure Marte will be , in 2 years, the 3b of the Red Sox. That would be great.
And the other offer with Delacarmen, Shoppach, Marte is way too much. That would be terrible!

[Mattingly]

man, I hate to say it, but this deal looks dead in the water. The indians want Delcarmen on top of Marte, Shoppach, and Mota? Theo should tell them to go screw themselves. Yeah, that's a good idea, let's get rid of not two, but three of our top prospects, and a player we just got in November. I swear to god, if this deal goes through, I'm gonna send hate mails to the boston offices. :grouchy F*** the Indians!!!
Dude/dudette, chill out for awhile. I certainly reason with you as to disliking how your team's being treated. Teams that aren't in contention--or in the case of Cleveland, weren't until recently--know that the top contending teams will try getting the most from them by taking away one of their better players to complete the team. For that need, said teams will need to ask for quite a bit.

Cleveland came within a hair of making the playoffs, and had they beaten the White Sox at home and at the Cell, they'd have been in there. They too have to worry about contending. Therefore, Coco isn't considered a spare part for them, and I'm not too sure they're actually shopping him round like he's the sacrificial lamb to rebuild a team.

I wouldn't necessarily call this deal dead, but if reports are accurate, Cleveland is asking for quite a bit.

[redsox1]

The Indians are putting the screws to the Red Sox, walk away Theo,walk away!!


Go Red Sox!!!

I Still Hate the Yankees!!:D

[Boston Boxer]

I say walk away now and trade Wells for Roberts and whomever else they want to throw in. Screw the Tribe. Have Marte start in AAA and bring him up to start 3b next year if ready.

No way do we need to get ripped off by the Indians.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

I say walk away now and trade Wells for Roberts and whomever else they want to throw in. Screw the Tribe. Have Marte start in AAA and bring him up to start 3b next year if ready.

No way do we need to get ripped off by the Indians.

Yep. I completely agree with that. Also the trade Mota, Shoppach, Marte is too much in my eyes.

Keep Marte. He'll be huge. ANd wait till the next offseason to get a very good free-agent such as...Andrew Jones!

[BoofBonser26]

So, let's see...

Sox offer crap for Crisp.

Tribe says no, shoves it in Boston's face.

Now YOU'RE mad?

Call off the deal. I'll be very happy, 'cause

WE KEEP CRISP!

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Yep. I completely agree with that. Also the trade Mota, Shoppach, Marte is too much in my eyes.

Keep Marte. He'll be huge. ANd wait till the next offseason to get a very good free-agent such as...Andrew Jones!

Hey, a Swiss baseball fan. Don't get me wrong, but this sounds to me like the Swiss navy... :D

Do they play baseball in Switzerland? If so, it will not be a big sport I guess.

Enjoy your stay here on BBF!

[Evangelion]

I say walk away now and trade Wells for Roberts and whomever else they want to throw in. Screw the Tribe. Have Marte start in AAA and bring him up to start 3b next year if ready.
Not happening. Towers has announced Dave Roberts as the Padres starting LF and the Red Sox have asked about Roberts long ago. Didn't you figure out the Sox would have brought Roberts back already if they could have and got rid another problem to boot in David Wells?


Keep Marte. He'll be huge. ANd wait till the next offseason to get a very good free-agent such as...Andrew Jones!
Who will lead-off this season? Willie Harris? Adam Stern?

Also, why does both sides think they're getting screwed? :rolleyes:

Think why Marte is being trade away so easily from the Braves first, now the Red Sox. If Marte as great as we all think, then we should be able to get Crisp without much of hassle. There has to be something up with Marte, which is why management and other teams are not over-estimating his value like quite a few Red Sox fans are.

[Mattingly]

So, let's see...

Sox offer crap for Crisp.

Tribe says no, shoves it in Boston's face.

Now YOU'RE mad?

Call off the deal. I'll be very happy, 'cause

WE KEEP CRISP!
I'm curious, how does Marte, Mota and Shoppach for Crisp and two other players qualify as "crap"?

Also, I'm still wondering who publicized this whole thing like the ink was about to dry in a few seconds?

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Hey, a Swiss baseball fan. Don't get me wrong, but this sounds to me like the Swiss navy... :D

Do they play baseball in Switzerland? If so, it will not be a big sport I guess.

Enjoy your stay here on BBF!

Hey man your quite a funny guy...:clapping

I'm half Netherland half swiss if you really want to know. So because of that I don't know anything about baseball or what?

Quite a narrow-minded expectation. Why do Yanks always want to "*?* around. You have enough money to buy all veterans around. Aren't you satisfied?

[pesky6]

Think why Marte is being trade away so easily from the Braves first, now the Red Sox. If Marte as great as we all think, then we should be able to get Crisp without much of hassle. There has to be something up with Marte, which is why management and other teams are not over-estimating his value like quite a few Red Sox fans are.

The way I look at things is that, yeah, he was the Braves #1 prospect, but just because he's #1 doesn't mean he's as good as another team's #1. Luckily for him, he fell into an organization that doesn't have great prospects either so he's still at the top of the heap.

The problem with prospects and RSN is a lot of people think back to that Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson trade (the fact that Bagwell was #3 behind Boggs and Scott Cooper is an entirely different story), and it seems as though fans get a little gunshy when talking about trading prospects. And they are just that--PROSPECTS. Who knows how these guys will fare in the big leagues on a day-to-day basis?

With that being said, I would have to add that if the Tribe isn't happy with Mota, then we hold off on making the deal.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Not happening. Towers has announced Dave Roberts as the Padres starting LF and the Red Sox have asked about Roberts long ago. Didn't you figure out the Sox would have brought Roberts back already if they could have and got rid another problem to boot in David Wells?


Who will lead-off this season? Willie Harris? Adam Stern?

Also, why does both sides think they're getting screwed? :rolleyes:

Think why Marte is being trade away so easily from the Braves first, now the Red Sox. If Marte as great as we all think, then we should be able to get Crisp without much of hassle. There has to be something up with Marte, which is why management and other teams are not over-estimating his value like quite a few Red Sox fans are.

I know...
But why then baseballamerica quotes him as the 5th prospect and a guy like Papaelbon is quite behind him?
It's quite bizar that the braves gave him away for Renteria if he is really that good.
I can't tell why it is like this.
But what would you have to resolute the situation?

[pesky6]

Sometimes I'm glad (for their sake, anyway) that these docs aren't dealing with the general public, since you can't "doctor" :D a physical's results that easily (pun intended, if you didn't catch the smiley). :p

In 2001, the Yanks wanted to trade with Montreal for Ugueth Urbina, but one of the Yankee relievers involved in the trade "failed" the Montreal physical. Consequently, Urbina also "failed" his Yankee physical. As it turned out, Montreal and the Yanks didn't seem to have a long trading history, so could've been something there, as in "We don't want to send him to you".

I'm thinking that Mota may have been acquired as trade bait, since Boston's in a need for a CF and SS. My hunch is that, since they've gotten top 3B prospect Marte away from Boston, they may be able to get even more.

Baseball is a funny business, and once teams feel that a team is in a great need for a player, they'll treat them like that team is in dire straits.

Matt, good read, but one thing to mention is that Mota was acquired before the Damon fiasco, thus he was acquired to bolster their pen. If this deal can get done without having to add Delcarmen, I'd like to see it get done.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Hey man your quite a funny guy...:clapping

I'm half Netherland half swiss if you really want to know. So because of that I don't know anything about baseball or what?

Quite a narrow-minded expectation. Why do Yanks always want to "*?* around. You have enough money to buy all veterans around. Aren't you satisfied?

I didn't say that you don't know anything about baseball. But I have never heard or read about baseball in Switzerland. Therefore I asked you: "Do they play baseball in Switzerland?" I am just curious.

I just think it is great that baseball gets more attention in the "smaller" baseball countries in Europe as well. The sport needs to grow in our part of the world.

[runningshoes]

I didn't say that you don't know anything about baseball. But I have never heard or read about baseball in Switzerland. Therefore I asked you: "Do they play baseball in Switzerland?" I am just curious.

I just think it is great that baseball gets more attention in the "smaller" baseball countries in Europe as well. The sport needs to grow in our part of the world.

You see what I mean about the ego jumping to conclusions, Chris?

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Matt, good read, but one thing to mention is that Mota was acquired before the Damon fiasco, thus he was acquired to bolster their pen. If this deal can get done without having to add Delcarmen, I'd like to see it get done.

Do you think that the Damon-thing was a fiasko?
I think he's just another old and overpaid Yankee-player now...

[Evangelion]

It's odd. I still will suspect there is something about Marte that's not being publicized, but the Red Sox, Braves and even the Indians know what his value you is. Regardless if he's a prospect, if he's ranked so high, Crisp for Marte should be enough. Throwing in even more prospect in this deal just has me continue question about Marte. Maybe it's has to with injuries.

Regardless, it's just speculation at this point.

In the end, they are just prospects. We don't know what they'll do. Hello, we also stole our share of prospects in deals. Remember how we got D-Lowe and V-tek to Boston from Seattle? I'm sure there's plenty of examples of big leaguers succeed after being trade to a team and the prospect sent to other team faltering. You just never know until after the fact.

Yes, a lot of Sox fan keep remembering the Anderson and Bagwell deal. In the end, Anderson did do what he was suppose to do in Boston when we got him. Like everyone suspect Bagwell to be as good as he was. Probably a hand full of people predict that back then.

Mattingly, Mota was thrown into the deal by Florida. Taking Beckett's injury history and Lowell's contract, the Sox were probably having second thoughts and Florida add Mota into the deal. I don't think he was just brought here to be trade to another team. He would be a good addition to the pen if he does stay.

Damon situation was handle poorly by the Sox. Damon was going to be over-paid regardless where he went. 10 million plus a year for four years is over-paying for a player at his level and age. He's still in his prime right now, but might decline in the coming years. Of course, popular opinion is he will deal before the four year deal. Doesn't mean it will happen without a doubt.

Though, I think he will be the second coming of Bernie, at least, during his final year with a pathetic arm and slow down speed during his fourth year.

[DoubleX]

It's odd. I still will suspect there is something about Marte that's not being publicized, but the Red Sox, Braves and even the Indians know what his value you is. Regardless if he's a prospect, if he's ranked so high, Crisp for Marte should be enough. Throwing in even more prospect in this deal just has me continue question about Marte. Maybe it's has to with injuries.

Though, I think he will be the second coming of Bernie, at least, during his final year with a pathetic arm and slow down speed during his fourth year.

First, I totally agree with you about Damon in the making. Already, he has a very poor arm, he often has poor reads on balls, gets poor jumps on balls, and he comes up short while charging balls that he should catch (if he got a better read). Definitely sounds like Bernie a few years ago. The only difference is that Bernie was a better CFer before his decline than Damon is now (or has ever been).

Anyway, I really like your theory about Marte. That's an interesting point, and I wouldn't be surprised. Things I've heard about Marte is that he has a lot power, but won't hit for average, doesn't run the bases well, and is fairly good in the field. I've also heard that he performed below expectations last year and that he's still probably a season away from being a full-time Major Leaguer. To me, he sounds like Troy Glaus, but with a better glove.

The thing about Marte that I would be very suspicious about is that the Braves' GM, John Schuerholz, is very shrew and very intelligent, especially when it comes to farm talent. Every season he seems to trade away some blue chip prospects, but how many of them can you think of have become stars after the Braves traded them? Schuerholz holds on to the prospects he knows will help the Braves, and deals the ones that look better than they really are in order to get something of value from the other team. He did it twice last year, first to get Danny Kolb (which actually backfired on the Braves) and then to get Tim Hudson. He did it to get Gary Sheffield. He did it to get Mike Hampton. And he just did it to get Edgar Renteria.

Anyway, I actually think that if the Red Sox cannot pull the trigger on this deal (and the Indians would be better off not doing it), they should keep Marte around. If Lowell struggles, or the Snow/Youkilis platoon isn't working, and both have at least decent chances of occurring, there should be a spot for Marte with the Sox at some point this year, and he could very well work out for them.

[Mattingly]

Matt, good read, but one thing to mention is that Mota was acquired before the Damon fiasco, thus he was acquired to bolster their pen. If this deal can get done without having to add Delcarmen, I'd like to see it get done.
Forgive me for saying, but I'm actually surprised you'd enjoyed whatever I'd just written. :p

Was Mota acquired in the Renteria trade? I know that Marte was, but unsure when Mota was acquired.

With Crisp having proven himself in a pennant race against the Southsiders, one in which he had a .955 OPS in September (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5299), I would agree he'd be good candidate for you guys/gals. Boof has mentioned questions about his arm strength, but I still insist that getting to the ball is more important. Can't throw what you don't have in hand. :D

I'd also heard that the other players included in the deal on Cleveland's end, in the reliever and catcher, were downgrades from Mota and Shoppach, respectively. Anyone else hear there?

[Mattingly]

Think why Marte is being trade away so easily from the Braves first, now the Red Sox. If Marte as great as we all think, then we should be able to get Crisp without much of hassle. There has to be something up with Marte, which is why management and other teams are not over-estimating his value like quite a few Red Sox fans are.
I'm thinking that the Red Sox had just overpaid for 3-4 years of Renteria's service, only to see him fall short in his first year, both offensively and defensively. True, I think it was them who'd wanted him dealt, rather than the Braves asking for a trade (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

With the Marte thing, I tend to believe it's one of two things:

That teams will see the Red Sox as a contending team who wants a key to the puzzle that puts 9 guys on the field every day, and that they've got what the Red Sox (or any other contending team) wants. Therefore, asking for "a little extra" may be acceptable.

Not that I agree with that, but as a Yankee fan, I've grown accustomed to teams asking for more from the Yanks. As an example, Arizona wanted Alfonso Soriano *AND* Nick Johnson to get Curt Schilling, but I think that Fossum, Hillenbrand and some other player that Boston sent out west were considered of lesser value (don't anyone take this personally).

The other possibility is that Marte actually is hurt. If so, then you've got yourself a big "inside secret" that only the GMs know about, but unknown to the general public.

I'm not sure how well stock Cleveland is with 3Bmen, but unless Lowell rebounds, and with Mueller having walked, it's either Youkilis or nobody if Marte is traded.

If anything, and I were a Red Sox fan (y'all will have to forgive me for this crazy thoughts) :D, I'd just do Marte + Shoppach for Crisp. I'd think that would be good enough for them.

Covelli/Coco (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5299) made a measly $364k in 2005, so money being dealt is a non-issue here. I'm not sure what Cleveland's payroll scenario is, and whether Coco's arb-eligible next winter or not, and whether he fits into their plans for another playoff run, but between his youth and salary, he does seem to have quite a bit to offer Boston.

[Evangelion]

Even if Atlanta counting on Renteria to rebound and the Sox are playing part of his salary. If this prospect was so valuable, you won't trade him to Boston for a player coming off a year as like Renteria had. Granted, I think Renteria will rebound, but Atlanta could have easily picked up a free agent SS if they need one a SS that badly.

If Marte does not have injury problems, then we probably have another consistent Troy Glaus, hell, if he is injury, he's even more similar to Glaus then. Or, we have inconsistent Matt Williams. Ever way, Marte should be a slugging 3B who will hit the long ball if he's playing.

Was Mota acquired in the Renteria trade? I know that Marte was, but unsure when Mota was acquired.
Mota was acquired with Lowell and Beckett from Florida.

Even if the Red Sox ask, Atlanta had to agree to dealing Marte for Renteria, which is the point.

I do dislike that both sides think the other side is getting the shorter end of the deal. At this point, it Cleveland is in the best position to take advantage of the Red Sox in dire need of a lead-off hitter and CF. Think Cleveland giving Crisp for charity? If Cleveland management and their GM believe Marte worth it, then he must be.

I have said, the original deal made most sense where Cleveland would get Mota and Marte and the Sox get Crisp. In turn, Cleveland trade a relief pitcher for Crisp's replacement. Red Sox fan could seem a bit angry at the deal. At this point, Cleveland getting the better end getting the high ranked prospect. Of course, he's still a prospect, so only time will tell.

Boston fan should know were in a bad position if we make or don't make a move at this point.

[DoubleX]

Even if Atlanta counting on Renteria to rebound and the Sox are playing part of his salary. If this prospect was so valuable, you won't trade him to Boston for a player coming off a year as like Renteria had. Granted, I think Renteria will rebound, but Atlanta could have easily picked up a free agent SS if they need one a SS that badly.

That's a good point, but it might be reading into things a bit too much. Marte was blocked by Chipper Jones, and the Braves have a wealth of young corner OFers ready to contribue (starting with Jeff Francoeur).

Renteria did have a down year last year, but he's only 30. Almost all players have an off year in the middle of their careers for whatever reason. There were people a year ago who were writing Alex Rodriguez as being in decline, then he comes back with an MVP season. It happens. Renteria is still young, and for 3-5 years previous to last season, he was the best SS in the NL. He'll only cost the Braves 3 mil a year, and as such, was vastly superior to anything in the free agent market that the Braves could get for that price. So they dealt from a position of strength to address a position of weakness. Now that Renteria is back in the NL in a less pressure-packed environment, I bet there is a good chance his game reverts back to closer to his pre-Boston form. In my mind, it was a sensible gamble for the Braves.

Plus, there is also the point that I brought up that Schuerholz is a great evaluator of farm talent. He knows just what talent to trade and what talent to keep. So with that in mind, perhaps your suspicions are correct. Why would Schuerholz have made the trade if Marte is such a good prospect? However, I think on just a practical level - that the Braves were in desperate need of an ML quality SS that could do the kind of things Rafael Furcal did, needed to be addressed now. So the team did it.

[davidspruill21]

I have seen lately where the Indians are now considering not trading Coco. Sorry I would like to see you guys have him in CF, I would rather see him in LF for Atlanta though.

[ricky151]

.The redsox are not overly concerned about winning in 3-4 yrs from now .The sox fans expect a play off team every year just like those Yankees fans. Any one could make the argument that crisp is better for the long run than Damon. Damon is 32 and coco is 26.. NO DAAA. Any how the redsox need a lead of man, a position which is a key for any successful team. I hope crisp is not the answer for the lead of problem. No one on base no one for Ortiz and Manny to bring in. For the redsox to compete with the Yankees they need a legitimate lead of hitter. judging the team now mark my words "no post season"

[moebarguy]

There's really not that big of a difference between Damon's OBP and Crisp's OBP. Also, having Loretta at the top of the order just puts another guy with a great OBP in front of Ortiz and Manny.

[Boston Boxer]

.The redsox are not overly concerned about winning in 3-4 yrs from now .The sox fans expect a play off team every year just like those Yankees fans. Any one could make the argument that crisp is better for the long run than Damon. Damon is 32 and coco is 26.. NO DAAA. Any how the redsox need a lead of man, a position which is a key for any successful team. I hope crisp is not the answer for the lead of problem. No one on base no one for Ortiz and Manny to bring in. For the redsox to compete with the Yankees they need a legitimate lead of hitter. judging the team now mark my words "no post season"

really...no post season. That is a pretty bold statement considering we have not even started spring training yet.:grouchy

[Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life]

The Indians did just make a trade. They got outfielder Jason Michaels from the Phillies in exchange for pitcher Arthur Rhodes.

Is this a signal that the Crisp to Sox deal is back on again? Guess we'll have to wait and see. Rumors are just that....rumors. I'm waiting for an official announcement of a done deal.

[Evangelion]

Let's hope it's the three way deal with the Reds, Red Sox and Indians.

[moebarguy]

I heard the Indians are interested in trading Crisp to the Mets for Kazuo Matsui ;)

[SoxSon]

There's really not that big of a difference between Damon's OBP and Crisp's OBP. Also, having Loretta at the top of the order just puts another guy with a great OBP in front of Ortiz and Manny.


Also, Crisp's OPS last season, interestingly, was actually a hair higher than Damon's.

Someone in this thread mentioned earlier that Coco is a single's hitter; I have been under the impression for some time that he actually hits for extra bases more often than not (when not bunting). His OPS would seem to support that.
The secret to Coco in Fenway, with Manny and Ortiz coming up shortly after, is to help his patience. He is not a patient hitter and does not walk frequently, making his OPS even more notable.

Ah...we'll see what will be shortly enough, I think.

[yankeekiller34BigPapi]

THIS JUST IN, deal is done pending Commisioner's stamp of approval.

BOSTON IS COO COO FOR COCO!!!

I'm not happy to see Marte and Shoppach leave, they are the future, but oh well. Crisp is gonna be a great replacement for that johnny guy, what was his name again? :laugh

Now we need to sign Gonzalez (I guess) at SS and we're good. :dance

[TonyK]

Coco will only make 3 or 4 million this year too. Will he have enough time to grow a beard?

[Evangelion]

Deal is final. Coco Crisp, David Riske and Josh Bard are members of the Boston Red Sox. Riske was most likely an upgrade from Mota, who is questionable at this point. Coco Crisp fill that hole in CF and lead-off, which I think was Boston biggest reason for pulling the trigger on this deal and parting with Marte.

[Boston Boxer]

and we do not give up Delcarmen...friggin YAHOO! Cleveland must feel like Oprah...because they just got duped:D

[SoxSon]

Cleveland must feel like Oprah...because they just got duped:D

Oh, I don't think so, BB. Cleveland has other plans in the outfield, and Marte is supposed to be that good. I'm going to wait to see Coco in Fenway before I jump on his bandwagon, I think. Of course, I am very glad to have someone in center. I was figuring Theo might end up there. :)

You all are aware of how weird Coco looks in the batter's box, right? He is more than unique enough to feel right at home in Boston.

[DoubleX]

This is a steal for Boston, especially since Boston only really had to give up parts it did not want anyway (Marte and Mota). I don't understand why Cleveland put Riske in the deal. He's been pretty good out of the pen the past few years, and certainly better than Mota. Cleveland must really be in love with Marte to give Boston two players that significantly upgrade its major league roster. This deal really hurts Cleveland's playoff chances this year in two respects - gives up one of its young and up and coming core players, while giving it to a team that could be prime competition for that Wild Card spot.

[BoSox Rule]

Andy Marte is an amazing prospect.

[FlashGordon]

Reading about the terms of the trade it seems that Cleveland is getting quite a bit in return for Crisp et al. However, if Coco is as good as advertised, he'll be worth it. The shelf life alone will be considerably longer. Now we get to look on when the Yankees hold their collective breath the next time Johnny receives a concussion.

[DoubleX]

Reading about the terms of the trade it seems that Cleveland is getting quite a bit in return for Crisp et al. However, if Coco is as good as advertised, he'll be worth it. The shelf life alone will be considerably longer. Now we get to look on when the Yankees hold their collective breath the next time Johnny receives a concussion.

How many concussions had Damon had? I would have thought all that hair would give him a nice cushion.

[SoxSon]

How many concussions had Damon had? I would have thought all that hair would give him a nice cushion.


There's a rumor that Johnny grew his hair and beard because of the concussion he received colliding with Damien Jackson. Some of us believe that a few nuts and bolts came loose in that collision.

[SoxSon]

I don't understand why Cleveland put Riske in the deal. He's been pretty good out of the pen the past few years, and certainly better than Mota.

I didn't know much about Riske before the last few days, but you're right. He looks better than he seems to be given credit for. In 73.2 innings pitched last season, he posted a .96 WHIP and help opposing batters to a .208 average. I like it.




...while giving it to a team that could be prime competition for that Wild Card spot.

I assume that somehow you're referring back to your own Yankees, yes? :laugh

[SoxSon]

Reading about the terms of the trade it seems that Cleveland is getting quite a bit in return for Crisp et al.

I think you're right, Flash. I think Cleveland did just fine here. This isn't a move that makes either side appear as a clear victor, IMO.

[DoubleX]

I think you're right, Flash. I think Cleveland did just fine here. This isn't a move that makes either side appear as a clear victor, IMO.

I disagree, the Red Sox are the clear victor here. Boston was negotiating from an adverse position, and they still came away with the better side of the deal. Cleveland should not have allowed a team as desperate as Boston to come out anywhere close to even in this deal.

But the real reason why Boston wins is because the additions of Crisp and Riske majorly upgrade the Sox roster for 2006. Marte might turn into a great player, but it won't be in 2006. Last year, Cleveland and Boston were going down to the wire for that last Wild Card spot, and now this year, Cleveland has hurt their own chances while directly aiding a potential competitor.

[SoxSon]

I disagree, the Red Sox are the clear victor here. Boston was negotiating from an adverse position, and they still came away with the better side of the deal. Cleveland should not have allowed a team as desperate as Boston to come out anywhere close to even in this deal.

But the real reason why Boston wins is because the additions of Crisp and Riske majorly upgrade the Sox roster for 2006. Marte might turn into a great player, but it won't be in 2006. Last year, Cleveland and Boston were going down to the wire for that last Wild Card spot, and now this year, Cleveland has hurt their own chances while directly aiding a potential competitor.

I'm talking for the long haul. As it stands, I don't see a clear victor for the long haul in this deal. As for next season, Boston has the edge on this one...but I try to be more "big picture" than that.

[sschirmer]

As a Tribe fan, let me congratulate you guys. Nice trade. Coco is not only valuable on the field, but also in the clubhouse. He will be sorely missed. I'm not sure if Bard will ever live up to his initial potential, but he should help in a backup role. I'm just sad to see Coco go. Good luck to him, I'm sure you will enjoy watching his play and his attitude.

[DoubleX]

I'm talking for the long haul. As it stands, I don't see a clear victor for the long haul in this deal. As for next season, Boston has the edge on this one...but I try to be more "big picture" than that.

That's very true, and who knows, Marte could turn into Mike Schmidt or Eddie Mathews (though I think Troy Glaus with a better glove is probably a better guess). The thing is though, unlike the Sox and the Yankees who can make moves today and not have to worry about the future, the Indians don't have that luxury. The Indians are built to compete now, and do the financial restraints the Indians have, unlike the Yanks and Red Sox, the Indians likely have an finite window on periods like this. At some point, their going to have to pay Hafner, Martinez, Sizemore, and Peralta, and it's likely and unfortunate that the team will have to part ways with these players in the interest of finances. That's why I think this is a particularly bad trade for the Indians. They have a young and up and coming core that is built to win now, and who knows if the Indians will be able to hold that core together in two or three years (when Marte is ready). I think the Indians have shot themselves in the foot on this one by injuring their competitiveness in a time where they are competitive - such a future is far from guaranteed for most teams, including the Indians.

[Solair Wright]

Crisp joins the platoon of BoSox hitters, and now what's our lineup? Better yet, now to hunt down the one: JULIO LUGO! (yes the Red Sox need to "borrow" him). If by some random act, we'll get him, effectively filling up the hole Renteria left. (more like the E6 hole)

[BoofBonser26]

So has the Alex Gonzalez deal fallen apart for you guys?

[Evangelion]

Crisp joins the platoon of BoSox hitters, and now what's our lineup? Better yet, now to hunt down the one: JULIO LUGO! (yes the Red Sox need to "borrow" him). If by some random act, we'll get him, effectively filling up the hole Renteria left. (more like the E6 hole)
Not happen. Tampa management, even the new management, is continue to be diffcult trading partners. This is why the trade that would have brought Lugo and Gathright never happen. Marte was involved in that rumor trade. With Marte gone, I don't see what the Red Sox have to offer the Devil Rays. Since the Devil Rays want pitching badly, they would ask for the Red Sox prospect pitchers such as Lester and Papelbon.

At this point, don't expect Lugo being a Red Sox any time soon.

So has the Alex Gonzalez deal fallen apart for you guys?
Last I heard he was going to have physical and could have been introduce as Boston newest SS as soon as last Tuesday. Of course, that is not happen at this point. Not sure what happen to signing of Alex Gonzalez.

[Mattingly]

There's a rumor that Johnny grew his hair and beard because of the concussion he received colliding with Damien Jackson. Some of us believe that a few nuts and bolts came loose in that collision.
And possibly a few key pieces of his marble collection as well. :D

I'm still wondering how well he will do covering CF. True, his OBP and baserunning are important, but to me, I'm most interested in seeing what he can do with the wheels to get to a ball, how well he reads it, and what he does once he gets to it.

Sooner or later, someone will challenge his arm (1st day or two should answer that question), so they'll test "the new guy".

Either way, I'm hearing that he wasn't that good in CF. Boof and others, how was he in CF?

[BoofBonser26]

Either way, I'm hearing that he wasn't that good in CF. Boof and others, how was he in CF?
Average. There were two reasons he moved to left.

1. He was better there anyway.
2. Grady Sizemore.

[Mattingly]

Average. There were two reasons he moved to left.

1. He was better there anyway.
2. Grady Sizemore.
By average, can you elaborate a bit? I think you'd mentioned mostly hearing games on the radio. From what you've read/heard or whatever, how were his wheels? Did he get a great read on the ball, or was he going to and fro trying to figure out where the ball was? Good and accurate arm? Make wise decisions in both calling off the other guy, as well as which man to get w/multiple baserunners?

Stuff like that I'm trying to find out about. I've also posted into a CLE thread you'd started. You had another one under CE, so I fgure you're taking this pretty hard.