Best Position Players of All Time - #25

[leecemark]

--Congratulations to Rickey Henderson for claiming spot #24 on our list. Elected so far;
1) B. Ruth
2) T. Cobb
3) W. Mays
4) H. Wahner
5) T. Williams
6) Ba. Bonds
7) T. Speaker
8) S. Musial
9) L. Gehrig
10) H. Aaron
11) M. Mantle
12) R. Hornsby
13) E. Collins
14) M. Schmidt
15) O. Charleston
16) J. Gibson
17) J. DiMaggio
18) F. Robinson
19) J. Morgan
20) J. Foxx
21) N. Lajoie
22) J. Bench
23) M. Ott
24) R. Henderson
--Please vote for your next ten best, numbered 1-10. I'll count the votes MVP style in a week or so.

[leecemark]

1) Alex Rodriguez - 5 years from now we'll look foolish for havinghim this low
2) Pop Lloyd - best NeL IF
3) Yogi Berra - #2 MLB C
4) Eddie Mathews - #2 3B ever
5) George Brett - just a hair behind Mathews
6) Cap Anson - best player of the 19th centruy
7) Turkey Stearnes - most underrated NeL great
8) Reggie Jackson - best AL player of the 70s
9) Charlie Gehringer - best IFer of the 30s
10) Carl Yastremzski - best AL player of the 60s
--my 2nd team
c) Piazza
1b) Murray
2b) Robinson
3b) Boggs
SS) Ripken
LF) Delahanty
CF) Griffey
RF) Crawford
DH) Thomas
Utl) Rose

[Bill Burgess]

Form Chart:

Catchers:

Pre-1910: Jack Clements, "Deacon" Jim McGuire, Red Charlie Dooin, Buck Ewing, Mike "King" Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Charles "Pop" Snyder, Marty Bergen, Bill Bergen, Johnny Kling, Roger Bresnahan, Chief Zimmer, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong,
Moses Fleetwood Walker.

1910-60: Hank Severeid, Bob O'Farrell, Bill Killefer, Ray Schalk, Wally Schang, Johnny Bassler, Walker Cooper, Sherman Lollar, Jim Hegan, Jimmy Archer, Muddy Ruel, Steve O'Neil, Billy Sullivan, Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Gabby Hartnett, Al Lopez, Ernie Lombardi, Walker Cooper, Rick Ferrell, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Del Crandall, Smokey Burgess.

1960-present: Ted Simmons, Lance Parrish, Jim Sundberg, Jerry Grote, Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, Mike Piazza, Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez, Bill Freehan, Benito Santiago, Charles Johnson, Bob Boone

Negro Leagues:
Josh Gibson (1929-1946)
Louis "Santop" Loftin (1909-26)
Bruce Petway (1906-25);
Frank Duncan (1920-48)
Larry Brown (1919-49)
James Raleigh "Biz" Mackey (1920-47, '50)

1B -

Pre-1900: Joe Start, Roger Connor, Charles Comiskey, Wes Fisler, Dan Brouthers, Jake Beckley, Fred Tenney, Ed Konetchy, Jake Daubert, Adrian "Cap" Anson, Dave Orr, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey

Frank Chance, Stuffy McInnis, Jim Bottomley, Jack Fournier, Lu Blue, Hal Chase, George Sisler, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, Bill Terry, Johnny Mize, Ted Kluszewski, Gil Hodges, Vic Power, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Wes Parker, Steve Garvey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Kent Hrbek, Tony Perez, Keith Hernandez, Eddie Murray, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Mark McGwire, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Carlos Delgado, Jason Giambi, JT Snow, Albert Pujols; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor.

2B

Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

Larry Doyle, Bobby Lowe, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, George Cutshaw, Charlie Gehringer, Frankie Frisch, Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Nellie Fox, Bobby Grich, Bill Mazeroski, Red Schoendiest, Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, Craig Biggio, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

SS

Pre-1900: George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, Freddie Parent, Dickey Pearce

Honus Wagner, Joe Tinker, Bobby Wallace, George McBride, Roger Peckinpaugh, Everett Scott, Joe Sewell, Luke Appling, Art Fletcher, Bill Dahlen, Donie Bush, Rabbit Maranville, Glenn Wright, Arky Vaughn, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Marty Marion, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Aparicio, Ernie Banks, Maury Wills, Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Alan Trammell, Dave Concepcion, Barry Larkin, Omar Vizquel, Derek Jeter, Alexander Rodriguez; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells.

3B:

Pre-1900:
Ezra Sutton, Levi Meyerle, Bob Ferguson, Arlie Latham, Ned Williamson, John McGraw, Jimmie Collins, Bill Nash, Jim Davis, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Deacon White, Jerry Denny, Bill Joyce, Levi Meyerle

Harry Steinfelft, Tommy Leach, Frank Baker, Bill Bradley, Willie Kamm, Ossie Bluege, Pie Traynor, Billy Cox, Eddie Mathews, Ken Boyer, Clete Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Bill Madlock, Paul Molitor, Scott Rolen;

Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

LF

Pre-1900: Harry Stovey, Ed Delahanty, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Tip O'Neill, Abner Dalrymple

Sherry Magee, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Carl Yasztrzemski, Joe Jackson, Al Simmons, Billy Williams, Ralph Kiner, Fred Clarke, Zack Wheat, Jimmy Sheckard, Duffy Lewis, Joe "Ducky" Medwick, Willie Stargell, Manny Ramirez.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CF:

Pre-1900: Jimmie McAleer, Bill Lange, Jimmy Ryan, George Gore, Harry Wright, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Tom Brown, George Van Haltren, Dummy Hoy, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy, Van Haltren, Ollie Pickering, Pete Browning, Curt Welch, Dickey Johnson, Mike Griffin

1900-1940: Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Roush, Max Carey, Clyde Milan, Clarence "Ginger" Beaumont, Oscar "Happy" Felsch, Chick Stahl, Johnny Mostil, Benny Kauff, Lloyd Waner.

1940-1970: Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snider, Richie Ashburn, Pete Reiser, Larry Doby, Jim Piersall, Jim Landis, Bill Virdon, Vada Pinson.

1970-present: Ken Griffey, Jr., Brett Butler, Andruw Jones, Tori Hunter, Mike Cameron, Jim Edmonds, Mark Kotsay, Dale Murphy, Kirby Puckett, Bernie Williams, and Kenny Lofton.

Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Christobal Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Clint "Hawk" Thomas, Chino Smith, Martin Dihigo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
RF -

Pre-1900: Willie Keeler, Jimmy Fogarty, Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns

Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Pete Rose, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Paul Waner, Sam Crawford, Al Kaline, Dave Winfield, Harry Heilmann, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Gavvy Cravath, Chuck Klein, Harry Hooper, Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, Sammie Sosa, Ross Youngs, Daryl Strawberry.

[Bill Burgess]

Numbers following represent Bill James' rankings for his Top 100.

Negro Leagues = Red
Pre-1900 = Blue

1. Buck Ewing -
2. George Sisler -
3. Pop Lloyd, NL 22
4. Joe Jackson 52
5. Jackie Robinson 27
6. Biz Mackay, NL
7. Alex Rodriguez ch 36- SS17
8. Ivan Rodriguez - C13
9. George Brett 25
10. Mickey Cochrane 58
----------------------
In my queue:

11. Roberto Clemente 60
12. Cap Anson - 1B11
13. Yogi Berra - 34
14. Louis "Santop" Loftin, NL -
15. Hank Greenberg 54
16. Herman Long - SS34
17. Hughie Jennings - SS18

[mac195]

1. Alex Rodriguez - overdue... at least #25, even if he declines more quickly than expected
2. Yogi Berra - co-favorite as best MLB catcher, should not fall much farther behind Bench
3. Pop Lloyd - some contemporaries called him the best ever
4. George Brett - with Mathews just a step behind Schmidt
5. Eddie Mathews
6. Ken Griffey Jr. - a Mays/Aaron type in his prime
7. Carl Yastrzemski - AL's best in toughest era for hitters
8. Turkey Stearns - Negro League greatness well documented
9. Cal Ripken Jr. - much more than just the streak
10. Arky Vaughan - short career but arguably the best SS ever in his prime

[baseballPAP]

1- Alex Rodriguez-moving up yearly
2- Billy Hamilton (career .455 OBP, 912 SB, 1690 R in only 1591 games!)
3- Ed Delahanty
4- Dan Brouthers
5-Eddie Mathews
6-Al Simmons
7-Pop Lloyd
8-Cap Anson
9-Arky Vaughan
10-Joe Jackson

[Dodger]

1 Alex Rodriguez
2 Eddie Mathews
3 George Brett
4 Ed Delehanty
5 Cal Ripken
6 Carl Yastrzemski
7 Pete Rose
8 Jackie Robinson
9 Ken Griffey, Jr.
10 Tony Gwynn

[abacab]

1. John Henry Lloyd
2. Eddie Mathews
3. Yogi Berra
4. George Brett
5. Ken Griffey Jr.
6. Alex Rodriguez
7. Carl Yastrzemski
8. Jackie Robinson
9. Cap Anson
10. Cal Ripken

[Matthew C.]

1. Cap Anson
2. Dan Brouthers
3. Joe Jackson
4. Ed Delehanty
5. Yogi Berra
6. Alex Rodriguez
7. Pop Lloyd
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. George Brett
10. Al Simmons

11. Charlie Gehringer
12. Carl Yastremzki
13. Hank Greenberg
14. Cal Ripken Jr.
15. Tony Gwynn
16. Eddie Mathews
17. George Sisler
18. Sam Crawford
19. Harry Heilmann
20. Martin Dihigo

[leecemark]

--I know not all our members think positional representation is a desirable outcome in these polls. I actually have to agree that in the very top echelons greatness is not evenly distributed amoung positions. However, as we work our way down I think some balance is probably a desirable thing to look toward. With 24 players, or 3 full teams elected, here is where we stand.
C) Two elected (-1): Berra seemly likely to be elected in the next few polls, but nobody else appears to be in a position to have a catcher balance by the time we get to 4 full teams. I've got Mike Piazza 4th, but there is nothing close to a consenus after Gibson/Bench/Berra.
1B) Two elected (-1): Gehrig is a near unamimous #1 and Foxx a clear #2, but there are probably 8-10 guys you can make a reasonable argument for the #3 spot. With so many similar bangers at the position its hard for any one guy to gain traction. Anson is the closest to election now and that may be as much to give some respect to 19th century guys as because he is clearly better than his 1B competiton. The good news, I suppose, is we could start electign 1Bs in clusters 5-10 spots down the road.
2B) Four elected (+1): There is a cluster of greatness at the top with 2Bs, then a significant drop to the next group. Gehringer and Robinson are currently drawing modest support.
3B) One elected (-2): Not surprising that 3B trails the field since it was the weakest position historically until the 1950s. Basically a teams 2nd best SS for much of that period. Mathews and Brett and amoung the leading vote getters at this point and this imbalance should be moderated soon, although I expect it to persist throughout the project.
SS) One elected (-2): A little surprising, but A-Rod and Pop Lloyd are the top 2 returing vote getter and Ripken and Vaughan are also drawign support. SS should catch up by the time we get to 40.
LF) Four elected (+1): The top 4 are pretty obvious (with Rickey clearly behind the other 3). The rest will probably have to wait awhile, with Delahanty drawing the most support now.
CF) Six elected (+3): No surprise here as CF is more top loaded than any other position. Griffey has a shot to make it 7 before we fill our 4th "team".
RF) Four elected (+1): The top 3 were no brainers. Ott is usually ranked 4th, although he was elected a little early for my taste. The consensus breaks down pretty quick after that and, while there are still many great players from this pool, nobody else is drawing much support now.

[leecemark]

--Cards, Lajoie was elected 4 spots ago. Please edit your ballot to include 10 eligible players.

[Matthew C.]

Thanks! Don't know how I missed that.

[leecemark]

--I don't really endorse equal representation over time, but we shouldn't complete ignore (or excesive load) any time period either. So far;
1800s: Zero (Anson and Delahanty in top 10 returning)
1900s: Two (Wagner, Lajoie)
1910s: Three (Cobb, Speaker, Collins)
1920s: Three (Ruth, Hornsby, Charleston)
1930s: Four (Gehrig, Gibson, Foxx, Ott)
1940s: Three (Williams, Musial, DiMaggio)
1950s: One (Mantle - although several could move up or down to the 50s)
1960s: Three (Mays, Aaron, Robinson)
1970s: Two (Morgan, Bench)
1980s: Two (Schmidt, Henderson)
1990s: One (Bonds)

[538280]

1.Pop Lloyd-2nd best SS, 3rd greatest Negro Leaguer
2.Arky Vaughan-very underrated, 3rd best SS, probably best NL player of 1930s
3.Frank Thomas-3rd best hitter ever.
4.Christobal Torriente-one of the most complete players ever, all time great glove and very good bat as well. DiMaggio light.
5.Eddie Mathews-first really great hitting 3B
6.Jeff Bagwell-Great hitter and fielder from 1B. He just wasn't as good a hitter as Thomas
7.Alex Rodriguez-looks like he'll be the best player of the 2000s, but Pujols poses a threat
8.Reggie Jackson-my favorite player, I think he's underrated here at BBF. Best AL player of the 1970s.
9.Jackie Robinson-Joe Morgan for half as long.
10.George Brett-By far the best Royal ever, very balanced player. His offense was about 50/50 between primary skills (contact) and secondary skills (power, walks).

Next up:
11.Turkey Stearnes
12.Pete Rose
13.Yogi Berra
14.Tony Gwynn
15.Tim Raines
16.Ron Santo
17..Willie McCovey
18.Robin Yount
19.Charlie Gehringer
20.Gary Sheffield

[Blackout]

1-Alex Rodriguez
2-Pop Lloyd
3-Frank Thomas
4-Yogi Berra
5-Joe Jackson
6-Ed Delahanty
7-Wade Boggs
8-Cap Anson
9-Tony Gwynn
10-George Brett

[hbinways]

1. j. robinson

2. a. rodriguez

4. g. brett

5. c. anson

6. b. mackay

7. d. brouthers

8. t. gwynn

9. w. boggs

10. b. hamilton

[Cyclone792]

1) Eddie Mathews
2) Pete Rose
3) Arky Vaughan
4) Pop Lloyd
5) Alex Rodriguez
6) Joe Jackson
7) George Brett
8) Yogi Berra
9) Carl Yastrzemski
10) Christobal Torriente

[Edgartohof]

1. Yogi Berra - C
2. Alex Rodriguez - SS
3. Wade Boggs - 3B
4. Ed Delehanty - OF
5. Ken Griffey Jr. - OF
6. Mickey Cochrane - C
7. George Brett - 3B
8. Jeff Bagwell - 1B
9. Charlie Gheringer - 2B
10. Pop Lloyd - SS
---------------------------------
11. Eddie Matthews - 3B
12. Jackie Robinson - 2B
13. Tony Gwynn - OF
14. Frank Thomas - 1B
15. Roberto Clemente - OF

[ElHalo]

1. Joe Jackson
2. George Sisler
3. Yogi Berra
4. Ed Delahanty
5. Cool Papa Bell
6. Alex Rodriguez
7. Charlie Gehringer
8. Mickey Cochrane
9. Frank Thomas
10. Ken Griffey, Jr.

11. Paul Waner
12. Johnny Mize
13. Ralph Kiner
14. Sam Crawford
15. Al Simmons
16. Al Kaline
17. Harry Heilmann
18. Chuck Klein
19. Bill Terry
20. Pie Traynor

[Yankee Legend]

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Roberto Clemente
3. Pete Rose
4. George Sisler
5. Pop Lloyd
6. Joe Jackson
7. Hank Greenberg
8. Ernie Banks
9. Yogi Berra
10. Al Simmons

11. Jackie Robinson
12. Charley Gehringer
13. Buck Leonard
14. Reggie Jackson
15. Tony Gwynn
16. Roy Campanella
17. Harry Heilmann
18. George Brett
19. Willie McCovey
20. Bill Dickey

[538280]

8. Ernie Banks


I'm just wondering about putting Ernie Banks here. He was a very good player in his peak, but one dimensional. HE didn't hit for a high average, didn't walk much, pretty much what you have is a player who gets most of his offensive value from home runs. But, when you're a shorstop hitting 40+ HRs you are very valuable, so I still say he had a pretty good peak.

But, when he moved to first his home runs dropped from 40 or so to 20 or so, and he continued not to walk or hit for high average. That coming from a first baseman equals a below average player IMO. So, what do we have? We have a guy who started off as a very good, but not great player, and then tailed off to become below average for the second half. Does that put a player in the top 50? I don't think so. Banks just barely makes my top 100, in the 90s.

[mac195]

I think Banks was a great player as a shortstop - one of the best hitters at the position, and also a pretty good fielder. But he played only 1125 games there (147 fewer than A-Rod), and his 2nd career as a mediocre 1st baseman adds nothing to his value. He may be top 50, but I don't see any way he makes the top 35.

[Chisox]

1) B. Ruth
2) T. Cobb
3) W. Mays
4) H. Wahner
5) T. Williams
6) Ba. Bonds
7) T. Speaker
8) S. Musial
9) L. Gehrig
10) H. Aaron
11) M. Mantle
12) R. Hornsby
13) E. Collins
14) M. Schmidt
15) O. Charleston
16) J. Gibson
17) J. DiMaggio
18) F. Robinson
19) J. Morgan
20) J. Foxx
21) N. Lajoie
22) J. Bench
23) M. Ott
24) R. Henderson
----------------------------------------------------------
01.Charlie Gehringer
02.JEFF BAGWELL
03.KEN GRIFFEY, JR.
04.Eddie Mathews
05.George Brett
06.ALEX RODRIGUEZ
07.Yogi Berra
08.Cal Ripken
09.Eddie Murray
10.Robin Yount

[dgarza]

Some ol' song and dance...

1. Dan Brouthers
2. Cap Anson
3. Ed Delahanty
4. Pete Rose
5. Sam Crawford
6. Harry Heilmann
7. Johnny Mize
8. Alex Rodriguez
9. Paul Waner
10. Frank Thomas

[Freakshow]

1.E.Mathews
2.A.Rodriguez
3.Brett
4.Ripken
5.Anson
6.Berra
7.Lloyd
8.Yastrzemski
9.Gehringer
10.Delahanty

[MadHatter]

1) Carl Yastrzemski
2) Cal Ripken
3) Roberto Clemente
4) Brooks Robinson
5) George Brett
6) Pete Rose
7) Charlie Gheringer
8) Reggie Jackson
9) Yogi Berra
10) Ivan Rodriguez

[leecemark]

--Alex Rodriguez ran away from the competition to claim the last spot in our top 25 position players of all time. The top 10;
1) Rodriguez 137
2) Lloyd 94
3) Yogi Berra 74
4) Eddie Mathews 73
5) Brett 69
6) Delahanty 50
7) Anson 46
8) J.Jackson 44
9) Brouthers 36
10) Rose 33
--tied for 11th were Yaz and Griffey with 31