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Bench 5
02-01-2006, 09:47 PM
I’ve read in a few sources where Negro Leaguers beat Major Leaguers 60-65% of the time they played each other. Some people interpret this to mean that blacks tried harder in inter-league exhibition games, or else major leaguer teams consisted of rag-tag combinations of assorted players playing out of position. And some have interpreted this to mean that Negro League teams were better than the Major Leaguers. In my opinion, all things being equal if teams from one league are winning 60+% of the games versus teams from another league, I would argue that the former is a stronger league than the latter.

I decided to gather as much info as I could find and interpret the data available. So I input all of the games listed in John Holway’s “Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues” into a spreadsheet. I also found several games on ProQuest that were not listed in his book and got all of the games from Bob Feller’s barnstorming from the book by John Sickels. I kept track of the dates, teams, scores, number of major leaguer position players, and number of major league pitchers. Most of the games from Holway's book are based upon games in the East and Midwest. Games from the California Winter League are not included.

Holway states in his book that black big leaguers won 57.1% of the games against white major leaguers. He credits Cuban teams, which usually consisted of several players from the Negro Leagues, with having a 43.5% winning percentage versus white major leaguers. I know there’s been other research but I think that Holway’s information is the source of the idea that Negro League teams won most of the inter-league match-ups.

Holway states that he considers a team to be a “big league” team if they have five or more white major leaguers - including the pitcher. Looking at the data, one of the biggest variables that relates to the won/lost records of games between Major League vs. Negro League is the number of major leaguers present on the team. Another variable is whether the major league team consists of players from the same team versus a mix of players from multiple teams.

Here is what the data shows in games between teams from both leagues involving a major league pitcher. The number of non-pitchers is listed in parentheses after the major league team. I broke it down into 3 levels. Major league pitcher plus zero to three position players. Major league pitchers plus 4 to 6 position players and major league pitchers plus 7 or more position players. Won Lost is indicated by the record of Negro League teams. Ties counted as 0.5 wins. Games included are between 1902 – 1946. “All Star” teams consists of major leaguers from multiple teams. “Major League Team” is a team with all or most of the players from the same team.

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (0-3)
36 - 12 (.750)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (4-6)
23 - 15 (.605)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (7+)
41 – 49 (.456)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League Team (4-6)
9 - 5 (.643)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League Team (7+)
23 - 29 (.442)

Total

Negro League vs. Major Leaguers (4-6)
32 – 20 (.615)
Negro League vs. Major Leaguers (7+)
64 – 78 (.451)

My interpretation of this data is that Negro League teams were very strong in comparison to Major Leaguers teams. Negro League teams overmatched teams of a few major leaguers playing with minor leaguers winning 75% of the games. Playing against teams with 5-7 major leaguers, the Negro league teams still won over 60% of the games. Against nearly full to full major league teams, the Negro League teams won 45% of the games. I think this shows the strength of the Negro League teams. They were extremely competitive in games against Major Leaguers. At the same time, it also shows the strength of the Major League teams. When complete or nearly complete ML teams played against Negro League teams they were the stronger league by this measure.

Another way to measure the quality of the leagues is to compare their records versus common competition. Major leaguers as well as Negro Leaguers often played against Cuban teams. Here is a record of the games by Negro League and Major League Teams against Cuban teams when they played during a similar span of time:

Major Leaguers record versus Cuba from 1908 – 1921
92 – 61 (.601)

Negro League Teams versus Cuba from 1903 – 1925
65 – 71 (.478)

The Major League teams were clearly superior to the Negro League teams in their performance versus Cuban teams. What I take from this is that the Cuban teams are very strong. The Negro League was obviously a very powerful league. I think that several NL teams could have competed in the Major leagues. But this data shows me that the Major Leagues were clearly stronger and I think that the idea that black teams routinely beat Major League teams comes down to an interpretation of the data. If you take a loose interpretation of “big league” team, then that’s a true statement. I don’t think that there is a need to make a loose definition just to make the point that the Negro League teams were strong. The evidence shows that they were a “Major League” even while measuring them against a more reasonable definition of “big league” team.

caribeńo
02-02-2006, 09:08 AM
Wow , Bench 5 you took it out of the park with this writing ! Love it .
I always wondered about the NL and the majors games , and all the writings around stating that NL were at best class A baseball . But at the same time reading that the NL beat the majors 2 out of 3 , looked to me that something was not clicking . Now i do understand ! As i see it , looks like some of the teams in the NL were somewhere between the AAA level and the majors ( very small span ) .
Again , congratulations on your great job . That's what we need here ! :clapping :clapping

KCGHOST
02-02-2006, 09:40 AM
This is superb research, but you will always have curmudgeons like me who will just say that in exhibition games anything can happen and the results are meaningless. They simply don't matter to me.

Brian McKenna
02-02-2006, 12:21 PM
good info - appreciate your research - it is good to see solid info on a much debated topic - drawing conclusions from the data may be a harder chore

Bench 5
02-02-2006, 05:38 PM
This is superb research, but you will always have curmudgeons like me who will just say that in exhibition games anything can happen and the results are meaningless. They simply don't matter to me.

I'm glad that some of you guys find this interesting. It gave me something to do in this crummy Chicago winter weather. :p

In reading some of these accounts I get the feeling that some of these contests were fiercely fought. Especially the games between teams from the same city. In other games they seem to be about as competitive as an NBA All Star game. So they definitely can't be compared in general to regular season ML game.

But the reason why I think it's important is because it's one of the only ways to compare the quality and ability of both leagues. Growing up as a kid the Negro Leagues were always portrayed as equivalent to a minor league. In the recent past, I think that some of the research that I've read on the Negro Leagues seems to be biased towards showing how good the Negro League players were in relation to Major Leaguers. All of the tidbits mentioned about a NL player include stories about how so and so struck out fill in the blank 3 times and so and so pitched x number of shutouts against major leaguers etc. So that tends to weaken people's perceptions of the Major Leagues prior to integration. On the other hand I think it unfortunately makes people think that the stories about NL'ers are dubious.

wamby
02-02-2006, 06:26 PM
This is superb research, but you will always have curmudgeons like me who will just say that in exhibition games anything can happen and the results are meaningless. They simply don't matter to me.

I agree. The research is very good, but I don't think it really says anything. It would be like determining that the team with the best spring traing record is the best team of all time.

yanks0714
02-04-2006, 08:47 AM
Excellent post, Bench5!

I think it shows that the NL's had the talent to compete in MLB although how well one team may do is pure guesswork at best.

The biggest thing the NL's would have had to overcome, I believe, is the depth of their pitching. Once you got past the top line pitchers I think the quality fell off quite a bit.

Another thing I suspect is that the NL's were probably bearing down a bit more in these games in an effort to prove they were the equal, or better, than their white counterparts in playing baseball. I'm really not sure what the ML players had to prove.

I'm currently reading 'Blackball, the Black Sox, and the Babe: Baseball's Crucial 1920 Season' by Robert C. Cottrell.
The author goes into the Negro League, called 'Blackball, quite extensively, focusing on Rube Foster and his teams (btw, it includes a picture of Foster with, of all people, Cap Anson). Cottrell uses many quotes from various newspapers and publications of the time to describe the teams and games.
Very interesting read and well researched.

wamby
02-04-2006, 08:50 AM
Excellent post, Bench5!

I think it shows that the NL's had the talent to compete in MLB although how well one team may do is pure guesswork at best.

The biggest thing the NL's would have had to overcome, I believe, is the depth of their pitching. Once you got past the top line pitchers I think the quality fell off quite a bit.

Another thing I suspect is that the NL's were probably bearing down a bit more in these games in an effort to prove they were the equal, or better, than their white counterparts in playing baseball. I'm really not sure what the ML players had to prove.

I'm currently reading 'Blackball, the Black Sox, and the Babe: Baseball's Crucial 1920 Season' by Robert C. Cottrell.
The author goes into the Negro League, called 'Blackball, quite extensively, focusing on Rube Foster and his teams (btw, it includes a picture of Foster with, of all people, Cap Anson). Cottrell uses many quotes from various newspapers and publications of the time to describe the teams and games.
Very interesting read and well researched.

I'm in the middle of that book also. I think some of the comments that the baseball writers made about Joe Jackson during the 1919 Worlds Series are especially interesting.

Bench 5
02-01-2008, 08:32 PM
"Cyclone" Joe Shuts Out Phillies

I have some several articles of games between Major Leaguers and Negro Leaguers. I am going to post all of the ones that I have as soon as I can. One of the things that is apparent based upon the newspaper accounts is that many of these games were fiercely contested.

Here are two game accounts of a game between the Philadelphia Phillies and the Lincoln Giants on October 17, 1915. The recap on the left is the NY Times while the recap on the right is the Chicago Tribune. Smokey Joe Williams (aka Cyclone Joe) struck out 10 and shut out the Phillies. Based upon another article I have of the game, the ending of the game was quite controversial due to the 9th inning ruling of a ground rule double.

As background information, the Phillies won the National League in 1915. They just came off a World Series loss to the Red Sox which ended October 13.

Although the team was listed as the Phillies, they only had six Phillies play in the game. Joe Judge from Washington played as well as Hack Eibel who played a couple years in the majors on other teams. There were a few Sullivans that played roughly in the same era but I am not sure which one is this "Sullivan". English had one at bat and must have been a minor leaguer or college player. I don't see record of an "English" in the majors at that time.

Interesting tidbit - George Chalmers got married the night before the game.

The game attracted 9,000 fans.

Bench 5
02-01-2008, 10:06 PM
Tesreau Fans 17 Lincoln Giants

Note that Smokey Joe Williams pitched in this game on October 15, 1915 which was two days before the game listed above. While Smokey Joe struck out 6, Jeff Tesreau of the last place Giants fanned 17. The major league mark at the time was 16. The NY Giants consisted of all members of the team.

Similar to the game above, the game attracted a full house - a crowd bigger than the NY Giants usually had at their regular season games at the Polo Grounds.

Story from Chicago Defender.

Brian McKenna
02-02-2008, 08:04 AM
Nice posts Bench5 - interesting note - Joe Williams held a second job as a bartender near Olympic Field in Harlem that he would go to after games (but that may have been a little later in his career).

Paul Wendt
02-02-2008, 11:34 AM
Good show.

Have you seen any evidence of a Cuba tour by major league ballplayers before 1902? There was some hoping and as soon as the last shots were fired.

Do you combine multiple images here or using other software?

Do you know the Chicago chapter of SABR?

Paul Wendt

Brian McKenna
02-02-2008, 11:59 AM
Have you seen any evidence of a Cuba tour by major league ballplayers before 1902?

Philadelphia players toured in November 1886
Lew Simmons and 19 others
Scott
Knouff
Tate
Cusick
Stricker
Irwin
Nash
Shaffer
Poorman
Wise
Miller
Robinson
Flanagan
Irwin
Lyons
McGarr
Crane
Greer
Stuart

Al Lawson and John McGraw went to Cuba in early 1891

Charlie Duffee accompanied a ballclub to Cuba in November 1892, still there in January

A group of ballplayers left New Orleans for Cuba on 12/28/1899 including Harry Steinfeldt

Major leaguers went to Cuba in 11/1900

**note: not all players are major leaguers

Bench 5
02-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Brian/Paul,

Here's a link to a site that I referenced when I did the original research a couple years ago. I have a sheet with a list of the inter-league matchups. I will track it down and post it here.

http://www.cubanball.com/timeline.html

I found a site with some great info on Smokey Joe Williams. I asked the person who gathered the info if he wanted to join this site and share his information. Hopefully he joins us.

I cut and paste a picture of the article and put it into Paint. Then I add pictures and save it as JPEG or GIF.

I am a member of SABR but never went to a Chicago meeting. I would like to do so at some point. I met Gary L from this site at a viewing of the Don Larsen game. I've talked with him about attending a SABR meeting. Do you enjoy them?

csh19792001
02-02-2008, 12:38 PM
I agree. The research is very good, but I don't think it really says anything. It would be like determining that the team with the best spring traing record is the best team of all time.

Right. This is truly commendable work, Bench, and I applaud your time, effort, and comprehensiveness. If only we had more historians such as yourself here at this site!!!

However, I still agree with Wamby, at least at this point in time. These are still exhibitions- and exhibition level intensity for the most part. In addition, most of the time the white teams were sparsely stocked and hardly ever at full capacity and playing as if this were the World Series. The black players, on the other hand, had everything to prove, since they were the ones presumed to be inferior in quality.

Looking at the ridiculous career offensive numbers put up by most of the biggest stars in the Negro Leaguers during their careers in their own leagues also detracts from their stature. Little League offensive numbers connote weak pitching and defense, and lack of organization and fundamentals. See Bill James' "indica of quality" regarding 19th century baseball in his New Abstract for more details. Most of the numbers we DO have on Negro League

Looking at the relative population pool, scouting, and infrastructure of the Negro Leagues relative to the Major Leagues also detracts strongly from Negro Leagues (and their top stars) purported strength.

Looking at the split-half careers of Negro Leaguers who played in the Bigs and the stats of white big leaguers against NLers also certainly does nothing to persuade me that the Negro Leagues were nearly as strong as the Bigs.

I can't locate that information at the moment, it would be of great help if someone who has it at their disposal could post it. This below is far from comprehensive and there is more to this story, but this is one piece of information:

Here are some numbers, not a very big sample but I believe enough to illustrate that MLB pitching on a day to day basis was on a higher level than that of the Negro Leagues.

15 hitters listed that played some black baseball than went to MLB.
How they did, what they averaged.

-------------black baseball--------------MLB
--------------.319----------------------.271

Quite a difference. The number of at bats in black baseball for most of these hitters was significantly lower than the number of at bats in MLB
Some of the hitters on that list, Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Junior Gilliam, Willie Mays, Sam Jethro, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby and Luke Easter.

Another list of 17 players who played black baseball and their numbers compared to how they did in the minors AAA.

-------------black baseball-----------Minor League AAA
----------------.320--------------------.301
A few of the 17 hitters, Hank Thompson, Minnie Minoso and Elston Howard.

As seen the batting average did drop from black baseball to MLB and even to Minor League AAA baseball.

No doubt some of these black hitters could hold their own in MLB but they did on average hit for a significantly higher in black baseball.

csh19792001
02-02-2008, 12:46 PM
Moreover......

While there were some great hitters in black baseball I find batting averages of .563-.498-484, hard to swallow, not against competent pitching. Add to that no one has yet to display daily box scores that even verify those batting averages.

Black star Buck O'Neil himself stated while black hitters compared to white MLB hitters, black pitching, day to day was not on the same level as white MLB. Teams would "borrow" pitchers from another team. On any given day a second baseman or outfielder could be used as a starting pitcher, lean pitching staffs in black baseball.

Here are just a small number of stats, blacks playing in Negro leagues compared to how they performed in MLB.

This first stat may be skewed because of the far greater number of at bats in MLB. These totals are for the same 19 hitters in the Negro Leagues and MLB.

-------------------At bats--------Home run average-------Batting average
Negro Leagues-----7,592---------------13-------------------.332
MLB--------------51,492---------------18-------------------.281

Two of the hitters that had a comparable number of at bats in black and MLB.

Sam Jethroe Black ball-----AB. 1331-----HRs 20-----BA. .340
Sam Jethroe MLB----------AB. 1763-----HRs 49-----Ba. .261

Bob Boyd Black ball-------AB. 1129------HRs 11----BA. .362
Bob Boyd MLB------------AB. 1936------HRs 19----BA. .293

Again, only a small sample and other factors, difference in age while in the Negro leagues and MLB. These stats do not tell the whole story. I welcome others opinions that may find some faults with the above. Looking for answers myself.

In some other stats most of the black hitters had a higher batting average in the Negro leagues than they did in minor league baseball.

My point, not saying that the the lower level of day to day pitching in the Negro leagues " made" some black hitters great but the fact is they hit for lower averages in MLB and many hit for lower averages in the minor leagues.

Bench 5
02-02-2008, 12:53 PM
Smokey Joe Defeats Alex the Great

Here is an account of the game from the Chicago Defender. As you see more and more game accounts, you will note that the teams are reported as the Phillies or Giants etc but they often consist of major leaguers that might be on another team, plus they sometimes include minor leaguers. According to John Holway's great book, there were five major league position players playing for the "Phillies" plus Alexander. I believe the catcher for the "Phillies' was Bill Reynolds who played a couple years for the Yankees.

Again, note the relatively large crowd that came to see this game - 11,000.

jalbright
02-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Personally, I'm willing to concede that the Negro League wasn't as strong as the majors top to bottom or "on average". However, I do believe it is clear that the best of the Negro Leagues were the equals of the best in the majors. I realize that there are huge problems with Negro Leauge stats. But, Josh Gibson's ability to consistently win home run crowns in the Negro Leagues, Mexico, the Caribbean (and IIRC the California Winter League as well) for championship clubs and despite often playing in a horrible HR park in the form of Griffith Park demonstrates prodigious power, for one example. The averages are inflated not only because of the level of competition, but because of the limited number of games. Negro Leaguers rarely had more than 80 games in a season, as barnstorming games were very much part of their bread and butter. In fact, they tended to be more lucrative, at least for good teams. Look at the averages for the leaders in late June in almost every season--they're usually significantly higher than they will end up for the leaders at the end of the year. If you want a better idea of the degree to which the stats were inflated simply by the shorter seasons beyond this example, look instead at career rates for the Negro Leaguers.

They're a lot more in line with what one would expect, and close to the Bill McNeil data I believe you're quoting. Unfortunately, the O'Neill data has one huge problem of its own in that it didn't control for player quality. Mays has his whole career on the major league side against the few hundred (or less, I can't remember off the cuff) AB he had in the Negro Leagues as a teenager. Things like that can definitely affect one's conclusions. That said, averages were lower in the majors, but power tended to stay the same or increase (due to keeping fresh balls in play, perhaps?)

csh19792001
02-02-2008, 03:27 PM
Personally, I'm willing to concede that the Negro League wasn't as strong as the majors top to bottom or "on average". However, I do believe it is clear that the best of the Negro Leagues were the equals of the best in the majors. I realize that there are huge problems with Negro Leauge stats. But, Josh Gibson's ability to consistently win home run crowns in the Negro Leagues, Mexico, the Caribbean (and IIRC the California Winter League as well) for championship clubs and despite often playing in a horrible HR park in the form of Griffith Park demonstrates prodigious power, for one example. The averages are inflated not only because of the level of competition, but because of the limited number of games. Negro Leaguers rarely had more than 80 games in a season, as barnstorming games were very much part of their bread and butter. In fact, they tended to be more lucrative, at least for good teams. Look at the averages for the leaders in late June in almost every season--they're usually significantly higher than they will end up for the leaders at the end of the year. If you want a better idea of the degree to which the stats were inflated simplyby the shorter seasons beyond this example, look instead at career rates for the Negro Leaguers.

They're a lot more in line with what one would expect, and close to the Bill McNeil data I believe you're quoting. Unfortunately, the O'Neill data has one huge problem of its own in that it didn't control for player quality. Mays has his whole career on the major league side against the few hundred (or less, I can't remember off the cuff) AB he had in the Negro Leagues as a teenager. Things like that can definitely affect one's conclusions. That said, averages were lower in the majors, but power tended to stay the same or increase (due to keeping fresh balls in play, perhaps?)

The additive fact that league averages were lower in the major leagues only increases the disparity between what Negro League players did in the NL vs. the Major Leagues.

As to the emboldened part you speak of, and the drop off in rates. Yes, intuitively that seems true; as the season drags on, averages drop, right? Dog days of summer?

I've always implicitly assumed this was true as well, so I calculated the first half/second half split-half data for the last 10 years (about 50,000 games total). I also ran a t-test to look at significance.

First half OPS: .764
Second Half OPS: .759

Not a statistically significant difference at all, and a good sample size. I don't think we need 40 years of data for this to stabilize. The conclusion here is that players don't wilt in the second half of the year, just because it seems like they should. Also, just eyeballing the OPS+ leaders from the last 10 years, I certainly don't see any strong correlation and split-half tendency you denote. If you have the time and inclination, you could look into it yourself.

jalbright
02-02-2008, 05:47 PM
csh: If you're going to do that test, I'd suggest doing it for average alone or HR, not something like OPS where a guy has to be "hot" across the board rather than having an unusual distribution of in one or two categories. I think average would be more volatile than OPS, just as a projected rate of HR is more volatile than average, all because the numbers are smaller, and thus the deviations don't have to be as many to be the result of simple luck.

Also, I'm focused explicitly on leaders, because they're likely a source of outlier results. After all, they are "the best".

Brian McKenna
02-02-2008, 06:47 PM
Have you seen any evidence of a Cuba tour by major league ballplayers before 1902? There was some hoping and as soon as the last shots were fired.

Paul Wendt
02-02-2008, 08:22 PM
wow!
thanks

Brian McKenna
02-02-2008, 08:25 PM
wow!
thanks

I glad you prompted me to do a little research. It took about 4-5 hours today - completely enjoyable.

csh19792001
02-02-2008, 09:56 PM
csh: If you're going to do that test, I'd suggest doing it for average alone or HR, not something like OPS where a guy has to be "hot" across the board rather than having an unusual distribution of in one or two categories. I think average would be more volatile than OPS, just as a projected rate of HR is more volatile than average, all because the numbers are smaller, and thus the deviations don't have to be as many to be the result of simple luck.

Also, I'm focused explicitly on leaders, because they're likely a source of outlier results. After all, they are "the best".

Jim,
Apologies, I thought we were looking for the greatest reliability and stability, generally speaking. OPS is going to yield a more global and accurate picture of offensive performance than raw HR or BA totals. Hence my usage. More volatility isn't going to lend itself more to the question of comparing negro league players to ML players, is it? I would think something omnibus would be more valid.

Again, even if one only looks at the leaders en masse, there isn't a pattern that lends credibility to your supposition that Negro Leaguers should be given more statistical leeway since they only played through June. The available Major League statistics we have- from the mid 1950's to present, suggest very little to any differential between first half and second half performance.

TonyK
02-03-2008, 06:28 AM
Terrific research Bench 5!

I'm hopeful one day to compile the results of the Cuban Giants games from 1886-1902 or so. That team mainly played minor league clubs, independents, and amatuer teams. They did play some games against ML teams. Their results are similar to your's with some games very competitive and others strictly for entertainment. Their handicap was every game was a road game. In order to be invited back to play next season they could not afford to burn any bridges this season.

I haven't read this entire thread so this may have been mentioned already. One motivation for NL players to play well vs ML teams was the slight possibility that they could be signed by a ML team. I've read a few articles stating that some of the NL'ers heard a rumor that integrating the ML's was being discussed. I imagine the NL'ers talked about this before games knowing they had to put their best foot forward.

Bench 5
02-03-2008, 07:46 AM
Smokey Joe Fans Nine and Shuts Out Federal Leaguers

Smokey Joe Williams shut out a team which featured a combination of players from the Buffalo and Brooklyn Federal League teams. On the mound for the Federal leaguers was Al Schulz. Smokey Joe fanned 9 federal leaguers in the game. Note that this shutout came a week before he shutout a makeshift Phillies team a week later.

Ubiquitous
02-03-2008, 07:52 AM
Look at the averages for the leaders in late June in almost every season--they're usually significantly higher than they will end up for the leaders at the end of the year

I think one thing you might be missing is that usually the names on the leaderboard in May or June or whatever have a bunch of Johnny-come-latelys while the final leaderboard usually contains very few of them. I don't really think it has to do with the grind of the season but more likely to do with sample size.

Bench 5
02-03-2008, 07:57 AM
Marquard Shuts Out Lincoln Giants, Defeats Cyclone Joe

Before a crowd of 3,000, Rube Marquard shut out the Lincoln Giants who were led by Cyclone Joe Williams. Note that the article states that the NY Giants used essentially the same lineup that played for them the entire season. I believe that Holway had this listed as a 1-1 tie in his book.

jalbright
02-03-2008, 07:59 AM
Jim,
Apologies, I thought we were looking for the greatest reliability and stability, generally speaking. OPS is going to yield a more global and accurate picture of offensive performance than raw HR or BA totals. Hence my usage. More volatility isn't going to lend itself more to the question of comparing negro league players to ML players, is it? I would think something omnibus would be more valid.

Again, even if one only looks at the leaders en masse, there isn't a pattern that lends credibility to your supposition that Negro Leaguers should be given more statistical leeway since they only played through June. The available Major League statistics we have- from the mid 1950's to present, suggest very little to any differential between first half and second half performance.

I think we're talking about different things. If you're trying to do a comparison of Negro League stats to major league, yes, what you're talking about is the correct approach. However, I was responding to the comment about some of the gaudy averages we see from the Negro Leagues, and, in that instance, I think what I'm saying has validity. Let me state it this way: the short seasons (in terms of number of games) are another factor in distorting the records we get from the Negro Leagues. That is all I'm trying to convey.

jalbright
02-03-2008, 08:00 AM
I think one thing you might be missing is that usually the names on the leaderboard in May or June or whatever have a bunch of Johnny-come-latelys while the final leaderboard usually contains very few of them. I don't really think it has to do with the grind of the season but more likely to do with sample size.

That's precisely the point I'm trying to make. See post 29.

Ubiquitous
02-03-2008, 08:02 AM
fair enough

Honus Wagner Rules
02-03-2008, 10:05 AM
I think we're talking about different things. If you're trying to do a comparison of Negro League stats to major league, yes, what you're talking about is the correct approach. However, I was responding to the comment about some of the gaudy averages we see from the Negro Leagues, and, in that instance, I think what I'm saying has validity. Let me state it this way: the short seasons (in terms of number of games) are another factor in distorting the records we get from the Negro Leagues. That is all I'm trying to convey.

These seems to be a trend in the majors as well as far as I can remember. For instance think about who the BA leader at the All-Star break. It's not ucommon for someone to be batting in the .360-.380 range. But these hitters always seem to cool down in the second half.

csh19792001
02-03-2008, 11:02 AM
I think one thing you might be missing is that usually the names on the leaderboard in May or June or whatever have a bunch of Johnny-come-latelys while the final leaderboard usually contains very few of them. I don't really think it has to do with the grind of the season but more likely to do with sample size.

Which is why I ran the numbers for 10 years for the entire major leagues. If over the 50 years of PBP data a pattern arises that shows a pattern, then I'll agree.

Everyone believes this, but unless someone runs the numbers I'm not inclined to agree just because it makes sense prima facie. As I said before, I looked at the leaders in OPS+ from both leagues over the last 10 years and didn't see any significant difference in league leaders in the first vs. second half.

Ubiquitous
02-03-2008, 11:41 AM
I looked at the leaders in OPS+ from both leagues over the last 10 years and didn't see any significant difference in league leaders in the first vs. second half.

Are you saying that the league leaders had similar numbers or that the individual players had similar numbers?

Meaning did the top ten slots overall have say a .950 OPS in the first half and a .946 OPS in the second half or are you saying that Wally Backman in the first half had a .975 and in the second half he had a .965?

I'm just wondering how much crossover there is between first and second half? If there are two players in the first half leader slots and they slump and fall out and get replaced by two hot hitters then the numbers won't really change. Or I should say the study won't pick up the second half slump by the two slumping league leaders. If that is how the study is set up. Like I said I am not really clear on the actual specifics of the study.

Paul Wendt
02-03-2008, 12:22 PM
The first-half league leaders as a group will do worse in the second half; worse by rate and a few will miss playing time and not qualify. The part about rate is regression to the mean, and it operates equally on those first-half "league trailers" who continue to play.

The study may be motivated by hypotheses that the long season will "tire out" regular players or cause small injuries; then players recuperate off-season. Here is an opposing idea. Major league quality may be lower in September because some teams "try out" new players who are weaker players on average. So the regulars who play full-time in September get a break that may compensate tiring and small injuring.

Regression to mean diminishes quickly with sample size ("first half" playing time), although no sample size eliminates it. There is little reason to add grains of salt to the record of a Negro Leagues or other short-season ballplayer with batting averages .350 .350 .350 .350. But the player with batting averages .350 .250 .350 .250 does have "salty" season records. In longer seasons .330 .270 .330 .270 or something like that would be likely.

Regarding rank-order finishes, the opposite is true. Leading the league in two of four short seasons, fine, as in the majors. But leading the league in four straight short seasons is a more impressive achievement than doing so in the majors. No one put up a better record in any of those short seasons. ("impressive" concerns league dominance or whatchamacallit. It is relative to league level of play, which may or may not differ between the short-season and long-season leagues.)

csh19792001
02-03-2008, 04:04 PM
However, I was responding to the comment about some of the gaudy averages we see from the Negro Leagues, and, in that instance, I think what I'm saying has validity. Let me state it this way: the short seasons (in terms of number of games) are another factor in distorting the records we get from the Negro Leagues. That is all I'm trying to convey.

But you've stated that it distorts them in a particular direction- specifically, that the Little League numbers are largely, or at least in part, attributable to truncated seasons.

Your assumption is only valid if it is supported by evidence. Nothing I've seen lends itself to the conclusion that if we were to cut off seasons in July, that career totals for Major Leaguers would be anywhere near that of Negro Leaguers. Or even that they would be, as a whole, significantly more elevated than the end of the year totals, in the long run.

Again, one could compile this data and run split-half reliabilities and t-tests, etc. to confirm or disconfirm this. I'm just stating which way the evidence points.

As to September call-ups, Paul makes a great point. It's is likely that any wear and tear beset by the second half of the year is at least in part offset by the number of minor league players on the field during the last few months of the season.

jalbright
02-03-2008, 05:02 PM
But you've stated that it distorts them in a particular direction- specifically, that the Little League numbers are largely, or at least in part, attributable to truncated seasons.

You are misunderstanding what I have said. I am merely saying that some of the eye-popping league leading averages are the result of a short season. Period. That is what one post talked about, and I was responding to that assertion. Yes, if a player is off in a shortened season, he won't have the chance to make it up that a longer season would provide. But folks aren't focusing on the seasons where Negro Leaguers didn't succeed in their own leagues. That's the only reason I didn't talk about it.

Bench 5
02-04-2008, 07:48 PM
Cyclone Joe Defeats Chief Bender's All Stars

The article doesn't list any major league position players so I am not sure how many major leaguers played for this All Star team. Bender gave up 0 runs over four innings.

Al Schacht pitched innings 5-8 and gave up two runs. Schacht was a minor leaguer at the time the game was played. He didn't make the majors for four more years.

Cyclone Joe gave up only one run.

I tend to think that this All Star team didn't have many major (and maybe zero) major leaguers since the other articles I have seen from the Chicago Defender usually list the names of the major leaguers. This game wasn't listed in Holway's book. I have seen reports on other bios of Joe that he defeated Bender. He left the game after four innings while up 1-0 so the loss should be pinned on Schacht.

Bench 5
02-04-2008, 08:22 PM
Cyclone Joe defeats the NL Champion NY Giants

The NL Giants consisted of five position players from the team plus little used Louis Drucke on the mound. First baseman Hal Chase from the other side of town pitched the last three innings. The other two positions were fielded by minor leaguers.

Cyclone Joe struck out nine and allowed only four hits while shutting out the Giants. The Lincoln Giants only got two hits yet scored six runs.

This is the last of the Smokey Joe games that I have right now. If I ever run across more I will post them.

I think this sample of games shows just how formidable he was as a pitcher. The "major league" teams often consisted of some minor leaguers but he also faced some very good pitchers (e.g Alexander, Tesreau, Bender). Out of the seven games he had three shutouts.

Bench 5
02-04-2008, 09:17 PM
Game between Giants and Smart Sets nearly ends in riot

This article underscores the competitive nature of many of these games. While violence was rare according to most of the articles I've read, there is a strong sense of competitiveness in these exhibition games.

Note that Louis Drucke initially refused to pitch against a black team on May 26, 1912. Yet five months later we see that he pitched against the Lincoln Giants without any recorded incidents.

This game ended in a tie due to the dispute over the ball that was to be used in the 9th inning.

The game drew a big crowd of 8,000.

Blackout
02-11-2008, 06:42 PM
ty cobb was 7/19 against black competition in his life

Paul Wendt
02-12-2008, 01:04 PM

Bench 5
02-12-2008, 08:09 PM
Here are some articles I have from Cobb's visit to Cuba in 1910. In 1909 the Tigers visited Cuba without Sam Crawford and Ty Cobb. They started off winning 4 out of 5 but then proceeded to lose seven in a row. According to John Holway, the Reach Guide called it "a disgrace".

In 1910, the Tigers visited Cuba again. Most of the Tigers came on an earlier boat and they played seven games before Cobb appeared. The Tigers were tied with the Cuba teams with a record of 3-3-1. With Cobb the Tigers went 4-1 to finish the series at 7-4-1. The Tigers included: Cobb, Crawford, Schaefer, D.Jones, Moriarty, O'Leary, McIntyre, Casey, and pitchers - Mullin, Willett, Summers.

The Philadelphia Athletics also visited Cuba around the same time. The A's went 4-6 against Cugan teams. The A's and Tigers played a game in Cuba which was won by the Tigers.

John Holway credits Cobb with a .368 average (7/19). However, he shows him with 3 hits in his first game, 0 in his second, 1 in his 3rd, 3 in his 4th, and 1 in his 5th. That totals 8 hits. I am not sure why there is a discrepancy. Holway states that Pop Lloyd hit .500 in the series, Home Run Johnson hit .412 and Bruce Petway hit .389. Jose Mendez went 0-2-1. He struck out Cobb in his last at bat.

By reading some of the articles below you get the clear feeling that Cobb was joking around and having some fun with the fans. He must have given them their money's worth.

According to Holway, Pop Lloyd stated that during the series, "Cobb was a good fellow, on and off the field."

Cobb hit an inside the parker in his first at bat of the series.

He was thrown out stealing once by Bruce Petway in second game. Holway could not find any documents to confirm the legend that Cobb was thrown out three times by Strike Gonzalez or Bruce Petway. The newspaper accounts that I found do not mention that although they do mention other times when Cobb was "shown up". Unless this story can be confirmed someday I am going to assume it is false.

NY Times 12/18/1910

Bench 5
02-12-2008, 08:17 PM
Here are a couple more articles. Cobb sounds like he had some fun.
35647

A couple pictures of Cobb playing in Cuba.
38786 38787

Bench 5
05-25-2008, 09:02 PM
Some sources incorrectly state that 6'5" southpaw Jesse "Pud" Flournoy struck Babe Ruth out three times in a row. The actual account of the game in the Chicago Defender dated October 16, 1920 states that Flournoy struck Babe out his first time up. Next time up, Ruth flew out to center. His third time up, Flournoy K'd him again. His last time up he walked the Babe. The account implies that it might have been intentional.

Carl Mays pitched for the Ruth All Stars and also played right field. The catcher Hoffman, played for the Yankees. I don't think any of the other players were major leaguers. Hilldale topped the All Stars by a score of 7-0.

Interesting note that Rube Foster scheduled a game the same day between his American Giants and the Bacharach Giants as a counter attraction.

Who Was "Pud" Flournoy?
I located the picture of Flouroy from this site:

This site includes the following information on Flournoy:
Willis Jefferson Flournoy
Maybe the most important find related to the Negro Leagues among the U.S. passport applications concerns “Pud” Flournoy, a southpaw who pitched for Hilldale, the Brooklyn Royal Giants, and other teams in the 1920s, and was supposed to have struck out Babe Ruth three consecutive times. We have, for the first time I think, learned that his full name was Willis Jefferson Flournoy; he was born on August 9, 1894 (WWI draft card) or 1895 (passport application) in Monticello, Georgia. He served as a corporal in the Army in World War I. If the passport application is correct, he was six foot five (his draft card says “tall”). He died November 22, 1964, and is buried in Beverly National Cemetery, New Jersey. He currently appears in Riley and other sources as “Jesse Willis Flournoy;” “Jesse” could be derived from his middle name. (His name appears in several databases as “Willie” instead of “Willis.”)

Blackout
05-27-2008, 10:46 PM
amazing bench5

disgrig
05-29-2008, 07:01 PM
I don't have the whole article but this is the title that appeared in the St Louis Argus on October 26, 1923. The game was held at Hilldale park in Philadelphia and the crowd was listed as "more than 30,000 fans in two days."

Also, in October 1923, the Detroit Stars won two of three games in Detroit against a post-season barnstorming St Louis Browns.

disgrig
05-29-2008, 07:17 PM
Another article from the St Louis Argus shows that the St Louis Stars won 2 out of 3 games from a team of major league all stars lead by native-St. Louisan, Walter "Union Man" Holke. The games were played in St Louis with one game on Saturday and a double header on Sunday. The major league all stars won the first game but the Stars took both ends of the twinbill.

disgrig
05-29-2008, 07:19 PM
I forgot to mention that the Stars vs. ML all stars games took place in October 1923.

Pere
05-31-2008, 03:56 AM
Growing up as a kid the Negro Leagues were always portrayed as equivalent to a minor league.

Of course, being "equivalent to a minor league," particularly pre-1930s, doesn't necessarily put a league too far off "major league" quality, anyway.

jalbright
05-31-2008, 05:47 AM
The other thing to remember is that regardless of the overall quality of the Negro Leagues, which may well have been most like a top level minor league, is that not all the players were below major league level. Indeed, some of the best players of the day played their entire careers there. That's a vast difference from what we ordinarily consider "minor league", because true "minor leagues" don't retain the best players like that--those players move on to the majors.

Pere
05-31-2008, 12:37 PM
That's a vast difference from what we ordinarily consider "minor league", because true "minor leagues" don't retain the best players like that--those players move on to the majors.

Yes... what we ordinarily consider "minor league" today, which is not always what minor leagues were; that developed gradually.

The white minor leagues of the Negro leagues era were of course much more like modern affiliated minors than the Negro leagues themselves were, though the process was still underway.

bryanac625
06-02-2008, 07:43 PM
The other thing to remember is that regardless of the overall quality of the Negro Leagues, which may well have been most like a top level minor league, is that not all the players were below major league level. Indeed, some of the best players of the day played their entire careers there. That's a vast difference from what we ordinarily consider "minor league", because true "minor leagues" don't retain the best players like that--those players move on to the majors.

I think the major leagues before 1947 was actually a mix of major and minor league talent. Were the St. Louis Browns really a major league team in name only? Certainly, WWII was a situation which necessitated settling for whatever players were available. I think because black players were excluded and Latino and Asian players were not scouted, many white men were allowed in MLB who might otherwise not have made it.

This is nothing against people of any color... I I just think it explains why some individuals were so successful (Cy Young, Rogers Hornsby, Joe DiMaggio) and why some teams always won (the Yankees) while others always failed (Browns, Phillies and Senators).

jalbright
06-03-2008, 07:44 AM
Still, the majors were superior in quality to the Negro Leagues even prior to Jackie Robinson's play for Montreal in 1946--and the Negro Leagues went downhill from there.

Bench 5
06-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Babe Ruth hits Three Homers off Dick Redding
NY Times, October 12, 1927

Here is an account of a game between the Brooklyn Royal Giants and Trenton, which included Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. The game was dated October 11, 1927. Trenton won the game 9-4 with the game called off in the 8th inning after a bunch of kids swarmed the field.

The Bambino went 3 for 5 with three homers off Dick Redding (per B. Jenkinson). The article states that Lou "only" went 2-4 with a single and double.

"Cannonbal"l Dick Redding was 37 at the time of this game.

Bench 5
06-08-2008, 02:51 PM
Thirty Six Balls Lost, Game called after 6 Innings
NY Times, October 14, 1927

This story has a lot going on.

Game delayed while the Babe waits for his payment of \$2,500.
Bustin' Babes win 6-5 through six innings.
Thirty Six balls were lost in the crowd and lake.
Gehrig hits homer in 6th which turns out to be the last ball so the game was called.
Lou Gehrig hits two homers and winds up 2 - 3 with two homers, a walk and a strikeout.
Ruth winds up 2 - 3 with a single, homer, walk and a K.
Bill Jenkinson has him at 1-4 with a HR which differs from the account shown here.
Babe has a pen in his back pocket to sign autographs.

Bench 5
06-08-2008, 03:17 PM
NY Giants finish up at 9 - 5 - 3 in Seventeen Games in Cuba

The NY Giants traveled to Cuba in November 1920. Up through November 19, 1920, Babe Ruth went 10 for 29 (.345) with 2 singles, 3 doubles, 3 triples, and 2 homers. He struck out 6 times. Ruth faced some black pitchers during this trip as well as hispanic pitchers. Bill Jenkinson has him at 1-5 with a homer versus black pitchers.

Note that Ruth continued on after the Giants ended their stay. I have no record of his games after that.

Torriente Hits Three Homers in One Game

During one of the games Cristobal Torriente outshined the Babe. Torriente blasted three homers and a double. Three of the homers came off George "High Pockets" Kelly who was a first baseman for the Giants. He hit his double off Babe Ruth. All three homers were inside the parkers.

This was an outstanding hitting display. However, I have noticed that many books and websites mention that Torriente outhit the Babe but they fail to mention the circumstances.

The park where they played the game had tremendous dustances to the outfield so it was next to impossible to hit one out.

Bench 5
06-08-2008, 03:27 PM
Babe Hits Two Out but his Team loses to BR Giants 3 to 1

The right field fence was short so anything hit over the fence was counted as a double. Babe hit two over the fence. However they were doubles.

According to Jenkinson, he was 2 - 4 with two homers. Jenkinson acknowledges this but credits him with two dingers. Even if they went 400 feet they should be counted as doubles since those were the conditions that they played under during the game.

Paul Wendt
06-09-2008, 05:13 AM
I have noted some games between black teams and teams of major league players in Chicago around 1900. I will post some notes here, probably no photocopies.

June 15: There are more games with minor leaguers and the games with major leaguers may all be organized by the players. Those sides would be incomplete major league teams or they would be "stars" from the American or the National League.

Paul Wendt
06-15-2008, 05:07 AM
The Milwaukee Brewers played games with black professional clubs from Chicago just before opening day, 1899 and 1900. Connie Mack managed Milwaukee 1898 to 1900. The American League declared its independence after the 1900 season and established four clubs in the East for 1901. Mack led that effort in Philadelphia (and helped elsewhere). Meanwhile Hugh Duffy managed the Brewers in their only major league season.

Source: Milwaukee Daily News, a 6-day newspaper

1898
In the fortnight before Western League opening day I found no mention of the Chicago Unions, the only crack colored team based in Chicago. (The Page Fence Giants, late 1894 to 1898, were based in Michigan. Many of those Giants moved to Chicago for the 1899 season, mainly as Columbia Giants.)

1899
Milwaukee trained at home in 1899, including games and perhaps training at Madison WI with the University of Wisconsin team. Newspapers, probably following club officials, sometimes said that a team would train "at home" meaning not far away. The home field might even be covered with ice.

Connie Mack scheduled two games with the Chicago Unions, Sat-Sun April 22-23, the weekend a few days before opening day. The matches planned for Monday and Tuesday were canceled and the Unions were available to remain in town so the two teams played games all four days.

During the season the Daily News provided full coverage of Saturday games in the Monday edition but for this practice game it provided only the line score with batteries. Here is the Unions lineup (singular) for the four games, limited to the battery in game one.

Chicago Unions at Milwaukee Brewers, 1899 Apr 22-25

S 22 Su 23 M 24 Tue 25 John Holway says
" 1,l " " W. Jones Willis Jones, of
m-p 2,p-m 2,m-p m-p Holland Billy Holland, p of
" 3,3 " " Hyde Harry Hyde, 3b
p-m 4,p-m 4,r-m p-m B. Jones Bert Jones, p
" 5,1 " " Moore Mike Moore, 1b
" 6,s " " (8) Monroe Bill Monroe, ss
" 7,c " " (6) Foote
" 8,2 " " (7) Hopkins George Hopkins, 2b
9,r sub 9,r 9,p-r r Horn Bill Horn, p
9,r - - - Jackson Bob Jackson, c
- - - 7,c sub Busby

[edited 2000-06-18 with reference to coverage by the Chicago Tribune]

Game one battery, "B.Jones, Holland, and Foote." (I suppose Jones was the starting pitcher.)
Game two comment, "Holland and Jones ... were quite effective." (I suppose Holland was the starting pitcher.)
Games three and four box scores presumably give the fielding positions in sequence.

I have called this "the Unions lineup (singular)" because it is consistent with batting positions identical in all four games and fielding positions identical except for the rotation of pitchers in center, in right, and on the mound. The only substitution in the four games was Busby for Foote, batting 7 and catching, sometime during game three. According to the battery reported for game one Busby did not catch in that game.

add one par: Chicago Tribune published less complete box scores for all four games, with one-paragraph blurbs. CTrib confirms the starting pitchers in the first two games, adds rightfielder Jackson in game one, differs in moving Monroe down to 8th batting position in game four.

Most or all of the full names with fielding positions are from John Holway's Complete Book, for this is one of the elite teams that he covers briefly. The other players he puts on the 1899 Chicago Unions are Bob Jackson, c, and Lou Reynolds, of. In a sense these were preseason games for the Unions, too; the team probably played April to October.

1900
Milwaukee trained at Richmond, Indiana, with or using the same field as the local minor league team. Mack scheduled four games with the Columbia Giants of Chicago, Wed-Sat April 11-14, the last games to be played before returning to Milwaukee. The first three were canceled by rain.

Columbia Giants lineup vs Milwaukee Brewers at Richmond IN, 1900 Apr 14

1,s Johnson Grant
2,3 Bing Bill Binga
3,2 Grant Charlie
4,r,p Wilson (George?)
5,r,p Miller (Joe or George?)
6,m,p Buckner Harry
7,l Patterson John W.
8,1 Burns Pete
9,c Barton Sherman

Battery: "Miller, Wilson, Buckner, and Barton."
(I suppose Wilson or Miller played centerfield (m) when Buckner pitched.)
That is Grant Johnson and Charlie Grant at short and second and manager John W. Patterson at leftfield (l).

Immediately following the season, which closed Tuesday Sep 18, Connie Mack led a Brewers team barnstorming for more than two weeks, ultimately to Denver. They played two games with the Columbia Giants.

Mon -09-24 at Delavan, Wisconsin (blurb and line score in MDN)
Milwaukee Brewers 1
Columbia Giants 1 (10 inn)
"Grant in the ninth made a home run which tied the score." (Charlie or Frank? See next item.)

Tue -09-25 at Joliet, Illinois (blurb and box score in MDN)
Milwaukee Brewers 4
Columbia Giants 3 (11 inn)

Columbia Giants lineup vs Milwaukee Brewers at Joliet IL, 1900 Sep 25

1,2 C. Grant Charlie
2,s White Sol
3,l Patterson John W.
4,p Buckner Harry
5,1 F. Grant (Frank, I presume)
6,c Johnson (George "Chappie"?)
7,3 Binga Bill
8,r Ward
9,m Smith
(Holway does not associate the Columbia Giants with Frank Grant or with any Ward or Smith. Ward and Smith may have been pitchers on trial.
The Milwaukee Brewers barnstormers do not match the regular team. They seem to be several Brewers completed by a few other American Leaguers. I have not assessed their strength.)

1901

For 1901 the American League declared independence from Organized Baseball, the N.L. and the minor parties to its National Agreement. The Americans dropped their clubs in Kansas City, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, and Buffalo and added clubs in four eastern cities: Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Boston. Connie Mack left Milwaukee to lead the Philadelphia effort and Boston's fading star Hugh Duffy left that city to take over the Brewers.

Milwaukee trained briefly in St. Louis, then in Excelsior Springs, Missouri, which was the Chicago White Stockings site. Duffy arranged practice games in Missouri only.

On April 4, the Daily News reported that club secretary Gross would arrange practice games for Milwaukee during the week or so between the team's return and its opening game in Detroit, scheduled for Wed, April 24. The paper named some likely opponents from in-state and observed that "it is not unlikely that the Columbian Giants will be brought here for a series of games."
In fact no spring games were scheduled with the Columbia Giants or any other crack colored team from Chicago. And because of cold weather the Brewers played only two of four games that were scheduled for Thu-Sun and did not practice Monday. Practice games and several of the opening season games were canceled and postponed all over the American League.

I found no other notice of the Columbia Giants (or the Unions or the Union Giants) in MDN during the month before opening day --except in relation to Charlie Grant, whom John McGraw possibly signed and certainly tried to pass as a Cherokee Indian player for the new Baltimore Orioles. Grant had played for the Page Fence Giants and Columbia Giants 1896-1900(?) and he arrived in Chicago around April 8 to play for the Giants again --and manage the team, according to MDN.

1902

Milwaukee lost its major league status in 1902, dropped from the AL in favor of St Louis. For two seasons there were competing professional teams in the city, one in the new, independent American Association (Brewers) and one in the minor Western League (Cream Citys). Duffy led the Cream Citys for both seasons. Then the club went out of business and he returned to the majors.

I have no plans to pursue this theme into 1902 or later but I suggest Milwaukee as one place to look for games played between Chicago's crack colored teams and white minor league teams.

Paul Wendt
06-15-2008, 08:39 PM
I plan to move this material when I have more of it.

SilentKiller
03-08-2009, 06:50 PM
I think an important thing to remember is that some of the Negro League players who made the jump to the Majors could not deal with the life of constant racism and harassment that was faced by Blacks playing in the majors and it very possibly could have had an effect on the performance of some players.

Bench 5
03-09-2009, 08:39 PM
Here is the game log of all of the games that I have in my records. I put this together 3 years ago by compiling a list of all of the games in John Holway's book. I found a few games that he doesn't have from searching on ProQuest and added them as well. I used the results provided in John Sickels book for the Bob Feller games rather than Holway's game logs. There were discrepancies between the two and I found that Sickels had it right when I looked them up on ProQuest.

The term "ML Pos" means the number of major league position players that were on the roster that played in the game or series. "ML Pitch" means the number of major league pitchers that played in the game or series. For multiple game series, Holway listed the roster for the entire series. It's possible that the number of players in each individual game was less than the number for the series.

Also, note that Holway counts a "major league" team as one with one major league pitcher plus 4 or more major league position players. He also counts former major league players as "major league" even if they didn't play in the majors in the year they played versus a NeL team. They are listed under the colum titled "Ret".

I am not saying his method is right or wrong but that's something to keep in mind when you hear people quote winning % in the series.

It is sorted by All Star teams first in ascending order based on number of ML position players, followed by NL or AL teams in ascending order based on number of ML position players. I have the actual dates for some of the games. I have had a hard time posting this so I will go back and try to add that when I clean up the excel sheet. The excel sheet is not posting into text without manual effort.

Year Major League Team League ML Pos Ret ML Pit W/L Runs Hits Errors Negro League Team W/L Runs Hits Errors
1913 Walter Johnson - 0 1 L 0 - - SCH Mohawk Giants W 1 - -
1914 Al Schacht - 0 1 W - - - NY Lincoln Giants L - - -
1914 Walter Johnson - 0 1 L - - - NY Lincoln Giants W - - -
1916 Rube Marquard - 0 1 L 4 - - NY Lincoln Giants W 5 - -
1917 Ferdie Schupp - 0 1 L 3 - - Indiana ABCs W 9 - -
1918 Rube Marquard - 0 1 L 0 - - NY Lincoln Giants W 8 - -
1918 Dan Griner - 0 1 L 0 - - NY Lincoln Giants W 2 - -
1918 Ray Keating - 0 1 L 0 - - NY Lincoln Giants W 1 - -
1918 Ray Keating - 0 1 L 1 - - NY Lincoln Giants W 14 - -
1918 Ray Keating - 0 1 L 2 - - NY Red Caps W 3 - -
1919 Duick Rudolph - 0 1 W 7 - - Bacharach Giants L 4 - -
1919 Johnny Enxmann - 0 1 W 6 - - Bacharach Giants L 1 - -
1929 Baltimore Os - Rommel - 0 4 L 2 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 5 - -
1929 Baltimore Os - C. Ogden - 0 4 L 3 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 8 - -
1929 Baltimore Os - Ehmke - 0 4 L 7 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 14 - -
1929 Baltimore Os - E. Carroll - 0 4 L 0 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 8 - -
1935 Dean All Stars - 0 2 L 2 - - KC Monarchs W 5 - -
1935 Dean All Stars - 0 3 W 1 - - KC Monarchs L 0 - -
1915 Reb Russell - 1 1 L 2 - - Indiana ABCs W 3 - -
1915 Reb Russell - 1 1 W 5 - - Indiana ABCs L 1 - -
1921 Carl Mays - 1 1 W 5 - - KC Monarchs L 3 5 -
1928 All Star - 1 1 W 8 - - Baltimore Black Sox L 5 - -
1930 Ed Rommel - 1 1 L 0 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 1 - -
1930 Ed Rommel - 1 1 L 3 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 5 - -
1931 George Ernshaw - 1 1 L 6 - - Webster McDonald W 7 - -
1933 Durocher - 1 1 L 0 - - Chicago American Giants W 3 - -
1935 Ruth All Stars - 1 0 L - - - NY Cubans W - - -
1935 Tigers - 1 3 L 0 - - Monarchs/Giants W 6 - -
1936 Tigers - 1 3 L - - - Monarchs/Giants W - - -
1937 Tigers - 1 3 L - - - Monarchs/Giants W - - -
1938 Tigers - 1 3 L - - - Monarchs/Giants W - - -
1917 Hooks Dauss - 2 1 L 1 - - Indiana ABCs W 6 - -
1917 Hod Eller - 2 1 L 1 - - Indiana ABCs W 2 - -
1922 Babe Ruth All Star - 2 1 L 5 - - KC Monarchs W 10 - -
1926 Babe Ruth All Star - 2 ? L 1 - - Brooklyn Royal Giants W 3 - -
1927 Babe Ruth All Star - 2 ? W 9 - - Brooklyn Royal Giants L 4 - -
1927 Babe Ruth All Star - 2 ? W 6 - - Brooklyn Royal Giants L 5 - -
1930 All Star - 2 0 L 0 - - Baltimore Black Sox W 10 - -
1931 All Star - 2 3 ? ? ? ? Baltimore Black Sox ? ? ? ?
1915 George Dauss - 3 1 W - - - Indiana ABCs L 0 3 -
1917 Bullet Bush - 3 Many 1 L 2 7 - Hilldale W 6 7 -
1917 Bullet Bush - 3 Many 1 W 11 13 1 Hilldale L 5 11 1
1929 All Star - 3 5 1 L - - - KC Monarchs W - - -
1929 All Star - 3 5 1 L 7 - - KC Monarchs W 8 - -
1929 All Star - 3 5 1 L 6 - - KC Monarchs W 20 - -
1929 All Star - 3 5 1 W 10 13 - KC Monarchs L 7 - -
1935 California All Star - 3 2 L - - - Negro Stars W - - -
1935 California All Star - 3 2 L - - - Negro Stars W - - -
1939 All Star - 3 1 L 2 4 0 Baltimore Elite Giants W 5 4 0
1911 All Star - 4 1 W 5 - - NY Lincoln Giants L 3 - -
1917 Jesse Barnes - 4 1 L 0 - - Indiana ABCs W 2 - -
1917 Minor League Dawson - 4 0 W - - - Indiana ABCs L - - -
1919 Herb Pennock - 4 1 W 6 6 1 Hilldale L 1 4 2
1928 All Star - 4 3 L 3 6 5 Baltimore Black Sox W 9 11 2
1928 All Star - 4 3 L 1 4 - Baltimore Black Sox W 2 4 -
1928 All Star - 4 3 W 5 - - Baltimore Black Sox L 1 - -
1928 All Star - 4 3 W 6 - - Baltimore Black Sox L 5 - -
1931 All Star - 4 1 L 5 11 4 Hilldale W 6 11 0
1931 All Star - 4 1 L 0 4 - Hilldale W 7 15 -
1931 All Star - 4 1 L 0 7 - Hilldale W 2 4 -
1931 All Star - 4 1 W 6 11 - Hilldale L 3 7 -
1931 All Star - 4 1 W 2 - - Hilldale L 0 - -
1932 Waners - 4 1 L 2 - - KC Monarchs W 6 - -
1943 Great Lakes Navy - 4 3 L 3 12 1 Chicago American Giants W 7 19 2
1943 All Star - 4 2 W 8 12 3 Paige All Stars L 2 9 3
1943 All Star - 4 2 L 3 6 2 Paige All Stars W 4 13 2
1943 All Star - 4 2 L 8 12 2 Paige All Stars W 11 12 3
1945 Army All Stars - 4 3 L 1 - - Army All Star W 2 - -
1945 Army All Stars - 4 3 L 0 - - Army All Star W 8 - -
1918 Bullet Bush (L on forfeit)- 5 1 W 4 - - NY Lincoln Giants L 3 - -
1920 Washington Senators AL 8 1 W 3 7 1 Brooklyn Royal Giants L 2 4 3
1920 Babe Ruth All Star - 5 1 L 4 10 7 Bacharach Giants W 9 12 0
1928 All Star - 5 3 ? - - - Homestead Grays ? - - -
1928 All Star - 5 3 L 5 10 3 Homestead Grays W 9 12 5
1928 All Star - 5 3 L 1 7 2 Homestead Grays W 5 8 0
1935 Dean All Stars - 5 3 L 1 5 1 Negro Stars W 7 14 2
1935 Dean All Stars - 5 3 T 0 2 0 Negro Stars T 0 1 0
1935 Dean All Stars - 5 3 W 3 9 0 Negro Stars L 0 8 2
1935 Dean All Stars - 5 3 W 1 4 1 Negro Stars L 0 1 1
1935 Dean All Stars - 5 3 L 1 - - Negro Stars W 11 - -
1935 San Fran All Stars - 5 0 W 2 - - Negro Stars L 1 - -
1946 Hans Wagner AS - 5 2 L 5 - - Jackie Robinson AS W 11 - -
1912 NY Giants & Yankees - 6 2 L 0 4 2 NY Lincoln Giants W 6 2 2
1919 Bob Shawkey - 6 1 T 0 5 - Hilldale T 0 8 -
1930 All Star - 6 1 L 5 5 3 Chicago American Giants W 6 11 1
1930 All Star - 6 1 W 14 18 0 Chicago American Giants L 3 9 2
1930 All Star - 6 1 L 1 9 1 Chicago American Giants W 6 14 1
1930 All Star - 6 1 L 6 9 1 Chicago American Giants W 7 7 1
1917 Bullet Bush - 7 1 W 10 12 0 Hilldale L 4 6 3
1936 All Star - 7 5 L 2 5 1 Negro Stars W 5 10 1
1936 All Star - 7 5 W 2 2 2 Negro Stars L 1 5 2
1936 All Star - 7 5 L 3 6 1 Negro Stars W 6 12 1
1936 All Star - 7 5 L 4 9 0 Negro Stars W 6 10 2
1936 All Star - 7 5 L 2 6 0 Negro Stars W 4 12 3
1936 All Star - 7 4 T 6 14 1 Pittsburgh Crawfords T 6 12 1
1936 All Star - 7 4 W 11 16 0 Pittsburgh Crawfords L 1 6 0
1936 All Star - 7 4 W 7 9 - Pittsburgh Crawfords L 2 9 -
1937 All Star - 7 6 W 5 9 1 KC Monarchs L 3 5 0
1937 All Star - 7 6 W 6 6 2 KC Monarchs L 5 11 4
1937 All Star - 7 6 W 1 - - KC Monarchs L 0 - -
1937 All Star - 7 6 L 0 3 1 KC Monarchs W 8 16 1
1939 All Star - 7 2 W 3 - - Baltimore Elite Giants L 1 - -
1939 All Star - 7 2 W 2 - - Baltimore Elite Giants L 0 - -
1939 All Star - 7 2 W 3 4 3 Baltimore Elite Giants L 1 6 1
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 2 6 2 Hilldale W 3 7 1
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 1 7 1 Hilldale W 6 10 0
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 W 11 16 2 Homestead Grays L 6 15 3
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 5 6 3 Homestead Grays W 6 12 3
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 1 - - Homestead Grays W 2 - -
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 W 1 7 0 Hilldale L 0 5 1
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 0 6 0 Hilldale W 3 6 0
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 1 6 1 Hilldale W 4 7 0
1926 AL All Stars - 8 4 L 3 8 0 Hilldale W 4 6 0
1929 AL All Stars - 8 3 L 11 16 3 Chicago American Giants W 12 10 1
1929 AL All Stars - 8 3 L 1 3 2 Chicago American Giants W 10 13 0
1929 AL All Stars - 8 3 W 1 8 2 Chicago American Giants L 0 3 1
1929 AL All Stars - 8 3 L 6 12 - Chicago American Giants W 7 15 -
1929 AL All Stars - 8 3 W 2 9 - Chicago American Giants L 0 5 -
1931 All Star - 8 2 L 3 9 3 KC Monarchs W 4 6 0
1931 All Star - 8 2 L 2 - - KC Monarchs W 6 - -
1931 All Star - 8 0 L 8 9 - St. Louis Stars W 10 12 -
1931 All Star - 8 0 L 1 - - St. Louis Stars W 18 - -
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 L 2 10 2 Pittsburgh Crawfords W 11 11 1
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 W 20 - - Pittsburgh Crawfords L 8 - -
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 L 2 - - Pittsburgh Crawfords W 4 - -
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 L 2 6 - Pittsburgh Crawfords W 10 14 -
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 W - - - Pittsburgh Crawfords L - - -
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 L 4 10 - Pittsburgh Crawfords W 5 11 -
1932 Stengels All Stars - 8 4 L 2 9 4 Pittsburgh Crawfords W 4 5 0
1941 Fellers - 8 2 W 4 9 0 KC Monarchs L 1 4 0
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 2 W 5 10 1 Hilldale L 2 9 5
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 2 W 4 5 2 Hilldale L 3 6 7
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 2 W 5 7 2 KC Monarchs L 3 5 2
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 2 L 5 - - Hilldale W 6 - -
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 1 W 1 5 0 KC Monarchs L 0 4 1
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 1 W 3 8 1 KC Monarchs L 0 6 2
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 1 L 4 8 1 LA White Sox W 6 13 3
1920 Stengels All Stars - 9 1 L 2 7 3 LA White Sox W 4 7 0
1942 All Star - 9 3 L 1 3 - KC Monarchs W 2 10 -
1947 Blackwell Stars - 9 2 L 3 9 1 Brewer Stars W 4 9 4
1947 Blackwell Stars - 9 2 L 2 6 1 Brewer Stars W 3 7 2
1947 Blackwell Stars - 9 2 L 3 - - Brewer Stars W 4 - -
1945 Dressen Stars - 10 3 W 5 4 1 Mackey Stars L 4 11 1
1945 Dressen Stars - 10 3 L 1 3 0 Mackey Stars W 2 3 0
1945 Dressen Stars - 10 3 W 10 - - Mackey Stars L 2 5 -
1945 Dressen Stars - 10 3 W 3 8 1 Mackey Stars L 1 4 1
1945 Dressen Stars - 10 3 T 0 3 0 Mackey Stars T 0 5 2
1946 Fellers - 10 5 L 1 - - Paige All Stars W 3 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 11 - - Paige All Stars L 2 - -
1947 Fellers - 10 5 W 5 - Paige All Stars L 0 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 6 - - Paige All Stars L 5 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 3 - - Paige All Stars L 0 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 4 - - Paige All Stars L 0 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 13 - - Paige All Stars L 10 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 L 4 - - Paige All Stars W 7 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 L 0 - - Paige All Stars W 4 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 L 3 - - Paige All Stars W 4 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 7 - - Paige All Stars L 6 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 7 - - Paige All Stars L 2 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 3 - - Paige All Stars L 2 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 5 - - Paige All Stars L 3 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 L 2 - - Paige All Stars W 3 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 4 - - Paige All Stars L 1 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 4 - - Paige All Stars L 3 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 2 - - Paige All Stars L 0 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 6 - - Paige All Stars L 0 - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W - - - Paige All Stars L - - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W - - - Paige All Stars L - - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W - - - Paige All Stars L - - -
1946 Fellers - 10 5 W 2 5 3 Paige All Stars L 0 5 1
1947 Fellers - 10 3 W 2 7 1 Brewer Stars L 1 5 1
1947 Fellers - 10 3 W 2 5 2 Brewer Stars L 1 4 0
1947 Fellers - 10 3 L 0 4 3 Brewer Stars W 8 11 0
1948 Lemons All Star - 10 2 W 8 9 0 Royals L 4 8 4
1927 AL All Stars - 12 2 W 7 9 0 Homestead Grays L 2 6 1
1927 AL All Stars - 12 2 W 4 11 2 Homestead Grays L 0 1 2
1927 AL All Stars - 12 2 L 1 7 1 Homestead Grays W 5 12 1
1927 AL All Stars - 12 2 L 0 3 - Homestead Grays W 5 12 -
1916 Art Nehf - ? 1 L 0 - - Indiana ABCs W 1 - -
1919 Carl Mays - ? 1 W 2 - - Wickware/Redding L 1 - -
1919 Jeff Tesreau - ? 1 W 2 - - Reddng L 1 - -
1919 Jeff Tesreau - ? 1 L 3 - - Redding/Wickware W 6 - -
1920 Babe Ruth All Star - ? 1 L 0 3 2 Hilldale W 5 9 2
1920 Babe Ruth All Star - ? 0 W 5 - - Hilldale L 3 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 W 4 - - KC Monarchs L 0 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 W 8 - - KC Monarchs L 3 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 0 - - KC Monarchs W 7 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 0 - - KC Monarchs W 9 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 W 13 - - KC Monarchs L 3 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 T 8 - - KC Monarchs T 8 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 0 - - Phillie Stars W 8 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 3 - - Phillie Stars W 4 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 0 - - Black Yankees W 6 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 W 10 - - ?? L 3 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 1 - - Pittsburgh Crawfords W 4 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 3 - - Pittsburgh Crawfords W 5 - -
1934 Dean All Stars - ? 2 L 3 - - Pittsburgh Crawfords W 4 - -
1943 All Star - ? 1 W 10 - - Baltimore Elite Giants L 1 - -
1943 All Star - ? 1 W 4 - - Baltimore Elite Giants L 1 - -
1945 Fellers - ? 1 W 4 - - Paige All Stars L 2 - -
1945 Fellers - ? 1 W 2 - - Paige All Stars L 1 - -
1946 Lemons All Star - ? 1 W 5 - - Paige All Stars L 0 - -
1921 Philadelphia A's AL 4 3 W 3 8 2 Bacharach Giants L 1 5 3
1921 Philadelphia A's AL 4 3 W 8 8 2 Bacharach Giants L 7 14 2
1921 Philadelphia A's AL 4 3 W 5 9 4 Bacharach Giants L 1 7 2
1921 Philadelphia A's AL 4 3 L - - - Bacharach Giants W - - -
1914 Philadelphia Phils NL 4 1 L 4 6 2 NY Lincoln Giants W 10 14 3
1913 Philadelphia Phils NL 5 1 L 2 8 0 NY Lincoln Giants W 9 12 2
1923 Philadelphia A's AL 6 2 L 0 1 2 Hilldale W 3 8 2
1923 Philadelphia A's AL 6 2 L 2 7 2 Hilldale W 3 9 0
1923 Philadelphia A's AL 6 2 W 11 12 1 Hilldale L 6 10 1
1923 Philadelphia A's AL 6 2 L 1 9 0 Hilldale W 3 8 0
1923 Philadelphia A's AL 6 2 L 4 8 1 Hilldale W 9 8 1
1923 Philadelphia A's AL 6 2 L 0 - - Hilldale W 9 - -
1915 Philadelphia Phils NL 6 1 L 0 5 0 NY Lincoln Giants W 1 7 0
1915 Philadelphia Phils NL 6 1 W 4 7 - NY Lincoln Giants L 2 6 -
1929 All Star - 7 2 W 6 9 3 Brooklyn Royal Giants L 3 5 2
1920 Washington Senators AL 7 1 3 W 2 5 0 Brooklyn Royal Giants L 1 4 1
1920 Washington Senators AL 7 1 5 L 4 9 4 Brooklyn Royal Giants W 5 12 2
1920 Washington Senators AL 7 1 3 L 2 4 3 Brooklyn Royal Giants W 4 4 0
1906 Philadelphia A's AL 7 5 L 3 5 6 Brooklyn Royal Giants W 7 9 1
1906 Philadelphia A's AL 7 5 L 3 - - Brooklyn Royal Giants W 7 - -
1906 Philadelphia A's AL 7 5 W 2 - - Brooklyn Royal Giants L 1 - -
1906 Philadelphia A's AL 7 5 W 5 3 3 Brooklyn Royal Giants L 4 5 4
1906 Philadelphia A's AL 7 5 W 5 - - Brooklyn Royal Giants L 0 2 -
1920 Philadelphia A's AL 7 3 W 2 8 1 Hilldale L 1 4 3
1923 Detroit Tigers AL 7 3 T 5 8 - Chicago American Giants T 5 10 -
1923 Detroit Tigers AL 7 3 W 7 7 - Chicago American Giants L 1 6 -
1923 Detroit Tigers AL 7 3 L 6 8 1 Chicago American Giants W 8 11 2
1902 Philadelphia A's AL 8 2 W 8 8 3 Philadelphis Giants L 3 8 6
1902 Philadelphia A's AL 8 2 W 12 16 2 Philadelphis Giants L 9 15 3
1922 Detroit Tigers AL 8 3 L 4 8 2 St. Louis Stars W 5 11 1
1922 Detroit Tigers AL 8 3 L 7 14 4 St. Louis Stars W 11 14 1
1922 Detroit Tigers AL 8 3 W 10 14 - St. Louis Stars L 3 3 -
1922 Cleveland Indians AL 8 (1) W 9 - - Cleveland Tate Stars L 8 - -
1922 Cleveland Indians AL 8 (1) W 9 0 0 Cleveland Tate Stars L 7 - -
1923 St. Louis Browns AL 9 3 L 6 6 0 Detroit Stars W 7 8 4
1923 St. Louis Browns AL 9 3 L 6 9 1 Detroit Stars W 7 10 2
1923 St. Louis Browns AL 9 3 W 11 17 0 Detroit Stars L 9 15 2
1924 Philadelphia A's AL 9 3 W 4 9 2 Baltimore Black Sox L 2 8 0
1924 Philadelphia A's AL 9 3 L 7 9 1 Baltimore Black Sox W 8 11 3
1947 NY Yankees AL 13 3 L 3 7 1 Caracas W 4 9 2
1915 Baltimore FL 8 1 L 3 - - NY Lincoln Stars W 4 - -
1915 Buffalo FL 8 1 L 0 7 0 NY Lincoln Giants W 3 11 1
1908 Cincinnati Reds NL 7 3 L 1 6 5 Brooklyn Royal Giants W 9 9 0
1909 Chicago Cubs NL 7 3 W 4 7 1 Chicago Leland Giants L 1 5 6
1909 Chicago Cubs NL 7 3 W 6 13 1 Chicago Leland Giants L 5 7 2
1909 Chicago Cubs NL 7 3 W 1 3 - Chicago Leland Giants L 0 4 -
1914 NY Giants (Marq.) NL 7 1 1 W 3 7 0 NY Lincoln Giants L 0 4 1
1905 Brooklyn Dodgers NL 8 2 L 2 8 1 Philadelphia X-Giants W 7 10 0
1905 Brooklyn Dodgers NL 8 2 W 2 9 1 Philadelphia X-Giants L 1 6 1
1912 NY Giants NL 8 1 T 3 7 4 Smart Sets T 3 9 2
1915 NY Giants NL 8 1 W 4 11 2 NY Lincoln Giants L 2 8 5
1915 NY Giants NL 8 1 W 9 18 3 NY Lincoln Stars L 2 8 3
1920 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 3 L 4 12 5 St. Louis Giants W 5 9 3
1920 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 3 W 5 10 0 St. Louis Giants L 0 2 4
1920 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 3 W 6 11 1 St. Louis Giants L 0 4 4
1921 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 4 W 5 12 0 St. Louis Giants L 4 13 2
1921 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 4 L 2 9 3 St. Louis Giants W 6 9 1
1921 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 4 W 12 - - St. Louis Giants L 3 - -
1921 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 4 W 9 14 2 St. Louis Giants L 6 10 7
1921 St. Louis Cardinals NL 8 4 W 10 15 0 St. Louis Giants L 3 11 1
1936 Cincinnati Reds NL 11 5 L 4 - - NWK Eagles/HOM Grays W 5 - -
1936 Cincinnati Reds NL 11 5 L 1 - - Cubans W 2 - -
1936 Cincinnati Reds NL 11 5 L 4 - - NWK Eagles/HOM Grays W 5 - -
1936 Cincinnati Reds NL 11 5 W 3 - - Cubans L 2 - -
1936 Cincinnati Reds NL 11 5 L 3 - - Cubans W 4 - -
1936 Cincinnati Reds NL 11 5 L 1 - - Cubans W 5 - -
1931 St. Louis Cardinals NL ? ? L 3 - - Juan Padrone W 4 - -
1912 NY Yankees AL ? 1 L 0 4 2 NY Lincoln Giants W 6 - -

Paul Wendt
03-11-2009, 09:18 PM
Here is the game log of all of the games that I have in my records. I put this together 3 years ago by compiling a list of all of the games in John Holway's book. I found a few games that he doesn't have from searching on ProQuest and added them as well. I used the results provided in John Sickels book for the Bob Feller games rather than Holway's game logs. There were discrepancies between the two and I found that Sickels had it right when I looked them up on ProQuest.
Thanks.
Am I right that the earliest games listed are two in 1902, next being 1906?

Bench 5
03-12-2009, 08:42 AM
There is a game in 1905 as well. I will uplaod the file and sort by date in a separate email. I will try to do it either tonight or tomorrow.

I have the month and day for some of the games but the format was not converting to text in a fixed field format.

I also had many of the Smokey Joe Williams games in a sheet which I will post too.

RapDixon
04-21-2017, 04:28 PM
I’ve been searching for this statistic for over 11 years. On 2/2/06, Bench5, a SABR member from Chicago (whom I’d love meet and/or at least identify) posted a spectacular post in a website called Baseball Fever about games between so-called Major League teams and so called Negro League teams. Most of the games were contained in John Holway’s great volume – flaws and all – The Encyclopedia of Negro League Baseball. In addition, Bench5 added several more games that he found on ProQuest and elsewhere. His bottom-line indicated the Negro League teams won at a .545 rate.

However, he did not stop there. If he did he would be no different than John Holway, Scott Simkus, Todd Peterson, William McNeil (for California Winter League games), and Ken Burns all of whom have compiled such sets with the Negro League team winning at a .526 (Simkus) to .707 (Burns) rate.

Becnh5 treated the Negro League side as a control group and distilled the MLB side into three categories, teams with between zero and three actual Major League players, with between 4-6 Major League players, and, finally, teams with 7 to 8 Major League position players plus a pitcher. It was no surprise when he found the Negro League teams did much better against the teams with fewer Major League players. The group that got my attention was his finding that in 142 games where a NeL team was pitted against a team with a Major League pitcher and no more than one non- Major League player it turned out that the Negro League won ONLY .451 of the time.

In my mind this was spectacular analysis and, for years, I have searched for Bench5 to congratulate him. I’d still like to do so but I know longer need to for my ulterior motive. I wanted him to look at his distillation and treat the Negro League teams in a similar fashion as he did the Major League teams. Today I went to the penultimate post in the Baseball Fever thread and found something Bench5 posted on 2/9/09 which was information on now 270 games between so called and so called with information on number of Major League players per team, name of Negro League team, and more.

I limited my view to 1920-1946 (Negro League Era during the Segregated Period of MLB) looked at only those games where the Major League team included a Major League pitcher and no more than one non- Major League position player. This was the set that held the NeL teams to a .451 winning percentage in Bench5’s original analysis. Common sense informed me that if I could do the same for the Negro League teams (i.e. look only at the most intact teams) the winning percentage would rise. The only question was how far.

Not having lineup information I simply included in my final search only those teams that were league teams. In other words, I eliminated teams like the Los Angeles White Sox (a California Winter League team), the Paige All Stars (a non-league team) and any team not in the NNLs, ECL, ANL, NSL, and NAL.

After so doing I was left with 76 games (of 270 total). Here is the dramatic results:

Major League teams (with an MLB pitcher and at least 7 MLB position players) won 37 games
Negro League teams (from any of the six recognized Negro Leagues) won 37 games
There were two ties.