Should a team carry 11 pitchers or 12?

[Mattingly]

Someone elsewhere said that 12 was a good idea. It allows you to have 5 starters and 7 guys in the pen. In addition to your closer and setup guy, you'll have 5 others backing them up.

I'm curious what you folks felt. Is 11 better, so that it allows you to have one extra utility guy and have the bullpen guys get more regular work, as opposed to designating one guy mostly for "mopup duty"? Or is 12 better, as it allows the bullpen to be more well-rested?

Please let me hear what the folks here think. :)

Thx. :D

[Big_Mac]

I think 11 pitchers is plenty for a team to carry. Alot of the 11th pitchers rarely get time as it is and if I were manager I would carry 11. That gives you six guys: closer, set-up, lefty specialist, middle relief, mop-up guy and a 'utility' pitcher. I think though that some NL teams should carry 12 pitchers for the fact that they use more relievers then the AL, also they have a extra spot because they don't have to carry around a full-time DH.

[DodgerBlue8188]

Maybe at the beginning of the year. To see which guys are going to be good for your team. I guess it all depends on how reliable your position players are. For a team like the Yankees. They have so many good position players, they dont need to pinch hit much. Plus they are in the AL.

[E.Banks#14]

The Cubs recently have began the season with 12 pitchers because of health issues (Wood, Prior, etc.). There are certain circumstances that call for having 12, and there are certain circumstances that call for having 11.

[Mattingly]

The Cubs recently have began the season with 12 pitchers because of health issues (Wood, Prior, etc.). There are certain circumstances that call for having 12, and there are certain circumstances that call for having 11.
If you get a chance, please offer some of those. I've always wanted to know more about this.

This is always a great question for the playoffs, since there are usually 4 (and sometimes 5) starters, and only the strongest pitchers will be placed on the postseason roster.

[CuriousBoston]

Especially if one is a barfly, elderly, with his butt in a sling, one has a stapled ankle & a bad last season, one ruined his knees when Varitek ran and jumped on him, then the entire 2004 World Series winning team piled on. (I never connected his knee problems to that until Annie mentioned it.) Oh, yeah, he's had surgeries.

Maybe 13 or 14 would be better.

[rockin500]

If you get a chance, please offer some of those. I've always wanted to know more about this.

This is always a great question for the playoffs, since there are usually 4 (and sometimes 5) starters, and only the strongest pitchers will be placed on the postseason roster.
if you have a healthy team you should never carry more than 11. Having more than 11 reduces the spots you have for offensive players and you cant be as creative with your lineup. The only time you should carry 12 is if you have injury prone pitchers or two plus starters who just cant pitch past 6 innings on a regular basis.

[Brian McKenna]

whatever the manager decides is allright with me

[Gashouse6]

You don't need 7 releivers. 11 pitchers is best.

[Astro]

if you have a healthy team you should never carry more than 11. Having more than 11 reduces the spots you have for offensive players and you cant be as creative with your lineup. The only time you should carry 12 is if you have injury prone pitchers or two plus starters who just cant pitch past 6 innings on a regular basis.
11 pitchers, if a player gets hurt you'll still have enough relievers to get through the game, then you place that said pitcher on the DL and call someone up the next day

Only time it is better to have 12 pitchers is when you have a pitcher who is extremly good with the bat, such as Brooks Kieshnick, Mike Hampton, Randy Wolf or Dontrell Willis... then they can pinch hit so you dont need as many bench players

[Mattingly]

Only time it is better to have 12 pitchers is when you have a pitcher who is extremly good with the bat, such as Brooks Kieshnick, Mike Hampton, Randy Wolf or Dontrell Willis... then they can pinch hit so you dont need as many bench players
Have any of these guys ever pinch-hit much on days that they weren't pitching? I remember Mike Hampton did once when I'd followed him. and got an RBI double.

[rockin500]

Have any of these guys ever pinch-hit much on days that they weren't pitching? I remember Mike Hampton did once when I'd followed him. and got an RBI double.
brooks has.

[Sweet Lou]

Should a team carry 11 pitchers or 12?
Yes.
;) :D :waving

[Mattingly]

Yes.
;) :D :waving
Uhmmmmm ... yes to 11 or 12? :p

[VTSoxFan]

I suppose it depends on the health of the team overall and the schedule they face. There was a time a couple of years ago where the Sox started out the year with 11 pitchers, but then played several grinding extra-inning games right out of the gate, and used up the bullpen before a week was out, and had to send down an infielder for an extra pitcher. I'm not entirely sure, but I think late last summer they carried an extra pitcher in the 30-games-in-30-days marathon.

So it's not set in stone, but depends on the situation.


Originally posted by CuriousBoston
Maybe 13 or 14 would be better.

Well, CB, we have something like 7 starters, so it'll eventually work out. I hope. If no one breaks down too much. Knock on wood and cross your fingers. Light a candle, burn some incense, hang a prayer flag, toss a handful of change in a fountain......

[KCGHOST]

Carrying 12 pitchers really crimps a manager on position players. Once you account for catchers that leaves you with 10-11 players to man the seven remaining positions and to PH. You need more flexibility than that.

[Mattingly]

OK, so hypothetical scenario:

A team isn't too competitive, has about a $60m payroll, and 2 of their 5 pitchers can only go 6-7 innings. Do they spend another $5m for another starting pitcher who can pitch 7-8 innings (pretend one's readily available) and put the less durable starter into the pen? Or do they just get as much out of that starting pitcher, then give the pen some work from the 7th or 8th inning onward?

[trosmok]

If I was the manager or GM, I'd lean toward 10 regular pitchers, and keep a guy in the minors for injuries/marathon stretches like VTSoxFan mentioned. Four starters, a set-up guy, a bona fide closer, and four relievers, two of whom would be designated for long relief. If a pitcher can't give me seven innings per start, he's going to go back to the farm until he learns how. I think teams carry too many pitchers, and therefore too many young arms are ruined by geting rushed to the show. Many only know how to throw, and haven't yet learned how to pitch until their second or third MLB season.

[Mattingly]

If I was the manager or GM, I'd lean toward 10 regular pitchers, and keep a guy in the minors for injuries/marathon stretches like VTSoxFan mentioned. Four starters, a set-up guy, a bona fide closer, and four relievers, two of whom would be designated for long relief. If a pitcher can't give me seven innings per start, he's going to go back to the farm until he learns how. I think teams carry too many pitchers, and therefore too many young arms are ruined by geting rushed to the show. Many only know how to throw, and haven't yet learned how to pitch until their second or third MLB season.
4-man rotation? That's unique. How many innings would you expect from those guys? How many starts?

As to the bona fide setup guy & closer, that presumes a higher payroll, correct? I'm thinking the payroll may be $80m+ in order to get that, since a <$60m payroll team may not have a great closer (though the 2005 D-Rays could prove me wrong).

As to "throwing" vs "pitching", are you referring to the strategy and ingenuity involved in "pitching" (as in what to pitch and under which circumstances)? Or are you referring to technically knowing how to throw a splitter, slider, cutter, curve. And of course, the occasional screwball. :D :crazy :p

[trosmok]

4-man rotation? That's unique. How many innings would you expect from those guys? How many starts?.......
As to "throwing" vs "pitching", are you referring to the strategy and ingenuity involved in "pitching" ....the occasional screwball....

Four man rotations used to be the norm, and it was not uncommon for pitchers to throw 250-300 innings. Livian Hernandez threw 246 innings last season in 35 appearances, so 35-40 starts would likely be my target. Twenty MLB players pitched 220+ innings last season, including Maddux, Johnson, Santana, Wakefield, Pettitte, and Willis, so young and old alike can do it effectively. About 25 more twirled over 200 solid innings, and complete games were more than double the previous season's total. Bob Gibson often threw 20 or more CGs in 35 starts, and was by no means the only one to do this regularly, simply the most recent pitcher that comes to mind.

Learning to "pitch" entails being able to hit your spots, effectively change speeds, keep the delivery deceptive but smooth, know the hitters, listen to your catcher, maintain poise, and stay sharp with the repertoire. Most young pitchers have a fastball and change, learn a slider, splitter, and curve as they climb through the minors, and develop their own "out" pitch with good coaching and mechanics. It seems many pitchers are rushed to the show with only two pitches they can throw for strikes regularly, and that can make for some very brief outings. Restoring the mound to 15 inches would help my pitchers, too, Donnie Baseball.:clapping

[Mattingly]

That's an awesome, as always informing, and very much fun post, tros! :D :clapping :p :dance

[west coast orange and black]

i'd love to see a return of the 4-man rotation, trosmok. and with it, 10-man pitching staffs.

but the minor league pitching philosophy would hafta change radically and so i do not see it happening.

an 11-man staff works as others have mentioned - when the guys are healthy and the schedule allows.

you mentioned bob gibson. here's another - juan marichal: 209 complete games in 10 years.
18, 18, 22, 24, 25, 18, 30, 22, 14, 18 from 1962-71.

nb: the mound does not need to go higher. :D

[Mattingly]

i'd love to see a return of the 4-man rotation, trosmok. and with it, 10-man pitching staffs.

but the minor league pitching philosophy would hafta change radically and so i do not see it happening.

an 11-man staff works as others have mentioned - when the guys are healthy and the schedule allows.

you mentioned bob gibson.
I don't know much about his entire coaching career, but he was Joe Torre's coach in St Louis. Not his "pitching coach", but his so-called "Attitude Coach". :D I found the title funny, but Gibson did receive that title, from an ESPN Classic I remember on him.

He'd quit since he'd felt players were too babied. I guess they don't build 'em like they used to.

Since you're talking of 4 starters and 6 relievers, there would be a closer, setup guy and 4 mid-relievers? 2 mid-relievers, long/utility guy + mopup pitcher? How would you use them?

Also, how many innings per game or year would your 4 starters go, according to what you'd do?

[west coast orange and black]

chances are that if i've got the horses for a 4-man, the year is not 2006, and the remaining 6 pitchers have been conditioned differently than today's pitchers, as well.

the *finishing pitchers* would routinely go 2+ innings, if needed. it would not be like today when the team has the lead has its closer pitching the 9th only. the number of innings pitched would depend on how well the other 4 relievers and 4 starters perform. the finishers would be the most dependable non-starters, who best demonstrate the ability to remain calm under pressure.

the non-2006 conditioning would mean that more than just one guy would be available for long relief. the trick would be not to overwork them. that is where the longer stints by the starters come in.

i would depend on the 4 starters being able to go 260, 230, 200, 180 innings for the season, from the ace on down. it seems like a pipe dream 'til you remember that that's the way things used to be back when.

of course, things have been known to happen during a season. :o

baseball has been a game of specialists for too long, and i'd like to see a reverse in the trend.

[Mattingly]

baseball has been a game of specialists for too long, and i'd like to see a reverse in the trend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm, I think I see a new thread being started somehow, somewhere. Looking into my Evil Pinstriped Crystal Ball ... :D ... I see someone on the west coast somewhere (out in the boonies, obviously) writing about days of yore when the game was real, men finished what they started (well, as it relates to baseball, anyway) :p, and there were 4-men rotations.

Anyone else get that impression?

[KHenry14]

One thing not mentioned is that if a skipper had the nerve to go to a 4 man staff and his hurlers broke down...he'd get creamed in the press, whether or not the extra innings had anything to do with the injury or not. I have a feeling way too many managers make decisions on what criticism they might receive after the game rather than make decisions that might win ballgames. This could be things like leaving a RH pitcher in to face a LH hitter when he had a lefty available in the Pen. Now maybe that particular pitcher gets lefty's out well, or maybe he's on a roll, but no matter, 99 times out of a hundred that manager will bring in the lefty.

I think 12 pitchers is a huge number to stock. 5 starters, a closer, 2 set up, 2 middle and 2 long seems a bit silly to me. Plus it removes flexibility from the manager....which means that you better be in the AL if you carry 12! :D

KH14

[Imapotato]

The Cubs recently have began the season with 12 pitchers because of health issues (Wood, Prior, etc.). There are certain circumstances that call for having 12, and there are certain circumstances that call for having 11.

My thoughts exactly...I wish it was 10...but P today have little talent and get hurt way too easily

[west coast orange and black]

Mattingly: Hmmmmmmmmmm...

hey, today's game is very real, two-three, no doubt about it. and hat's off to all those in the game.
but though today's game is different, it is still mostly the same in most ways to me.

[west coast orange and black]

KHenry14: ...which means that you better be in the AL if you carry 12! :D

very smooth, ken. very smooth. :laugh