"If it would have happened in New York or Boston..."

[Victory Faust]

As a fan of the Detroit Tigers, I'm often annoyed at the inordinate attention paid by the media to the great "moments" in New York and Boston baseball history, as opposed to the "moments" in other teams' lore.

We all know that New York is the "capital of baseball" (and, not coincidentally, the capital of the media). And the Red Sox have always been the darling of the Ivy League literary set.

And, don't get me wrong -- I'm happy for it. New York has given us four great major league teams, each with rich histories and characters. And the Red Sox are my second-favorite team. Nobody is denying that New York and Boston have contributed more than their fair share to baseball lore.

But, really, don't you think there has been way too much attention paid to things like Joe DiMaggio kicking the dirt in the '47 Series because an outfielder made a good catch on him; or Yaz's clutch hitting during the 1967 pennant race? Certainly, these are both great pieces of baseball history, and they deserve to be recognized. But there are even more spectacular or interesting historical events involving other teams that are relatively ignored.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few moments in Detroit Tiger history that would have been played up huge if they had happened in New York or Boston:

-- In the first game of the 1940 World Series, Bobo Newsom defeated the Reds, 7-2. That night, after he spent the evening celebrating the win with his family, Bobo's father died suddenly of a heart attack.

Bobo grimly dedicated his next start to his father's memory. In Game Three, he pitched a three-hit shutout masterpiece. After the game, he sat in the clubhouse surrounded by reporters and photographers, tears streaming down his face.

This story hardly ever gets told, yet it's a sad and wonderful tale. I'll bet if Bobo had pitched for the Brooklyn Dodgers or the Yankees, this great moment in baseball history would be etched in the minds of fans everywhere.

Another great moment in Tiger history that has been relatively ignored is the breathtaking 1987 pennant race. The Tigers and Blue Jays, neck-and-neck in the AL East, played seven games to close out the season. Every game was a classic, each of them decided by a single run. The Tigers finally beat the Jays at home, 1-0 on the final game of the season.

But the 1987 race somehow got left on Ken Burns' cutting room floor, and it always seems to escape the attention of editors putting together baseball history books.

But, by God, ol' DiMagg musta been REALLY ticked to have kicked the dirt like that -- Joltin' Joe hardly ever showed any emotion, you know. And Yaz? Oh, man...you shoulda seen him in '67! Da man was haht like a fya-crackah!

What are some of the great moments in your favorite team's history that have wilted in the shadow of the Empire State Building and Harvard University?

[Ubiquitous]

It probably would have helped the Tigers case if they had beaten the 85 wins Twins in the playoffs. The Braves and Giants had the last great pennant race and I don't you will ever see a book about it or anything close to that because the Braves couldn't get past the Phillies. While the Phillies team probably has several books written about that team. AS for that Toronto team, wow. That team after it won its third game (7th overall)in a row against the Tigers must have been thinking they were going to the playoffs. Then to lose 7 in a row and miss the playoffs, must have been crushing.

[efin98]

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few moments in Detroit Tiger history that would have been played up huge if they had happened in New York or Boston:

-- In the first game of the 1940 World Series, Bobo Newsom defeated the Reds, 7-2. That night, after he spent the evening celebrating the win with his family, Bobo's father died suddenly of a heart attack.

Bobo grimly dedicated his next start to his father's memory. In Game Three, he pitched a three-hit shutout masterpiece. After the game, he sat in the clubhouse surrounded by reporters and photographers, tears streaming down his face.

This story hardly ever gets told, yet it's a sad and wonderful tale. I'll bet if Bobo had pitched for the Brooklyn Dodgers or the Yankees, this great moment in baseball history would be etched in the minds of fans everywhere.

You want sports fans to remember a single outing by a journeyman pitcher whose game you didn't even get right(it was game 5) in a series his team lost in seven games? Sorry, but there were better stories in other series.

However if that happened in this era you can bet top dollar that would be the story of the series and probably one that would be remembered for years to come. But it didn't. It was a memorable moment but not one the best from that era.


Another great moment in Tiger history that has been relatively ignored is the breathtaking 1987 pennant race. The Tigers and Blue Jays, neck-and-neck in the AL East, played seven games to close out the season. Every game was a classic, each of them decided by a single run. The Tigers finally beat the Jays at home, 1-0 on the final game of the season.

But the 1987 race somehow got left on Ken Burns' cutting room floor, and it always seems to escape the attention of editors putting together baseball history books.


Look at the series around it. 1986 was worth mentioning more than the 1987 AL East race due to Bill Buckner's error and subsequent loss. 1988 World Series was worth mentioning a lot more than the 1987 race thanks to Gibson's home run.

Heck even the Twins were a better team to mention than the Tigers- they hadn't been in the playoffs since 1969, the Tigers were World Champions only three years before! Simply better stories elsewhere than that year. Now if there was a focus on great pennant races that year would have to be mentioned, right alongside other great years.

[DoubleX]

If you were go judge by ESPN, the greatest moment in baseball, at least in the past 25 years, is the Kirk Gibson homerun. That's Game 1 of a World Series featuring no teams from Boston, New York, or even the east coast.

Other hyped/memorable moments of the past 25 years - Joe Carter's Game 6 homerun, Jack Morris' 10 innings in Game 7, Kirby Puckett's Game 6 homerun, Ozzie Smith's homerun in the '85 NLCS.

If there is a memorable moment, it will be remembered, regardless of if the Yankees or Sox are involved. Sure the media machine in New York and the northeast will overhype the Yankees and Red Sox achievements, but that has a lot to do with the tradition of the franchises, as well as the populations of the regions. There is a reason why New York is the media center of the world and Detroit is not.

Also, there are more memorable Yankee moments in history because the Yankees have been involved in 39 World Series, thus giving them far more opportunities for memorable moments.

[Buzzaldrin]

Before I write this, let's get this straight- I'm not a Tigers fan, but like it or not, there are moments from 40 and 87 that are so clutch, they're superhuman, and Victoryfaust is right, in other baseball towns they'd be better remembered.

The big boy in 1940 was not Newsom, although shame on you for calling him a common journeyman- it takes a DAMN good pitcher to lose 200 games (and even in the short term, Newsom was 21-5 that year).

Floyd Giebell was the man. Needing a win over Cleveland to clinch the pennant on the last day of the season, for God knows what reason, Del Baker passes over Newsom, Bridges, and Rowe, and puts in rookie Giebell, who shuts out Bob Feller and the Indians 2-0 to win the title. Giebell was not eligible for the series and never won another major league game. King for a day.

and as to 87- one of the greatest clutch pitching performances ever- Doyle Alexander comes from Atlanta, and in only 11 starts for the Tigers goes 9-0 with a 278 ERA+ and 3 shutouts down the stretch. Even though he only started 11 AL games, only Jeff Reardon among pitchers finishes higher than Alexander in the MVP voting, and as to the Cy Young, well, go look at the voting results and innings pitched and tell me how many starting pitchers have ever got a first place vote with less than 100 IP.

These things would be remembered better in larger media cities.

[iPod]

If you were go judge by ESPN, the greatest moment in baseball, at least in the past 25 years, is the Kirk Gibson homerun. That's Game 1 of a World Series featuring no teams from Boston, New York, or even the east coast.

Other hyped/memorable moments of the past 25 years - Joe Carter's Game 6 homerun, Jack Morris' 10 innings in Game 7, Kirby Puckett's Game 6 homerun, Ozzie Smith's homerun in the '85 NLCS.

If there is a memorable moment, it will be remembered, regardless of if the Yankees or Sox are involved. Sure the media machine in New York and the northeast will overhype the Yankees and Red Sox achievements, but that has a lot to do with the tradition of the franchises, as well as the populations of the regions. There is a reason why New York is the media center of the world and Detroit is not.

Also, there are more memorable Yankee moments in history because the Yankees have been involved in 39 World Series, thus giving them far more opportunities for memorable moments.

Nobody on the planet would have given a crap about Curt Schilling and that sock had he been playing for another team. It's gross how much ESPN has whored itself to stand in the omnipotent healing light of Yankee and Red Sock glory.

[Ubiquitous]

Nobody on the planet would have given a crap about Curt Schilling and that sock had he been playing for another team. It's gross how much ESPN has whored itself to stand in the omnipotent healing light of Yankee and Red Sock glory.

Well that is bull. He could have been playing for Tampa as long as it was in a series like that one and it would go down for quite some time. Curt was a known elite player who a few of years before was part of one the highly vaunted dynamic duos (again not part of Yankees or Red Sox) that rolled through the playoffs. He was going to get attention for doing what he did in those circumstances regardless of what his jersey said on the front.

Kirk Gibson got immortalized for a game 1 homer in what turns about to be a short series and he didn't have a Boston or New York jersey.

[efin98]

Kirk Gibson got immortalized for a game 1 homer in what turns about to be a short series and he didn't have a Boston or New York jersey.

Same for Luis Gonzalez. Same for Joe Carter. Those guys didn't play for New York or Boston yet those guys are immortalized for their moments.

[DoubleX]

Nobody on the planet would have given a crap about Curt Schilling and that sock had he been playing for another team. It's gross how much ESPN has whored itself to stand in the omnipotent healing light of Yankee and Red Sock glory.

I don't believe that's true. Curt Schilling is a media whore, and had he been pitching in Game 6 of the championship series for any team, I'm sure he would have brought attention to his bloody sock so he could portray himself as the hero. Schilling is a big name, and he was long before he came to Boston. As the ace of any playoff team, with a personality that loves to cater to the media, he would be getting a lot of media attention irrespective of what jersey he is wearing in the series. Baseball is a game that loves having heroes, Schilling knows this, the tv execs know this, and I think on any team in that ALCS situation, Schilling's bloody sock would have been played up as a heroic moment.

[Blackout]

you mean Schillings painted sock :D

[Williamsburg2599]

you mean Schillings painted sock :D
Your seriously not claming his sock was painted red, are you?

[Victory Faust]

You want sports fans to remember a single outing by a journeyman pitcher whose game you didn't even get right(it was game 5) in a series his team lost in seven games? Sorry, but there were better stories in other series.


Better stories? Such as a single catch by a journeyman outfielder (Al Gionfriddo) in a series his team lost in seven games? Nah, you're right...there's no NY bias.

You are also right in that I did err on which game it was. However, despite the implication, my error has absolutely no bearing on my argument.

Whether Bobo's masterpiece happened in Game 5 or Game 16, are you honestly trying to make the argument that a single catch by a journeyman player on a losing team in the '47 Series is a better "moment" than a journeyman pitcher dedicating a game to his father, who died during the Seres, then pitching a shutout?

If you are, it's not a very strong argument.

My point is: We hear and see SO MUCH about the Gionfriddo catch. That was always one the clips shown in every baseball history video I ever saw, and it was often mentioned in the books, too. But we hear NOTHING about Bobo's game.

[csh19792001]

Floyd Giebell was the man. Needing a win over Cleveland to clinch the pennant on the last day of the season, for God knows what reason, Del Baker passes over Newsom, Bridges, and Rowe, and puts in rookie Giebell, who shuts out Bob Feller and the Indians 2-0 to win the title. Giebell was not eligible for the series and never won another major league game. King for a day.

These things would be remembered better in larger media cities.

Totally agreed. And also from the "unacknowledged heroics" department.....

Who knows anything about Duster Mails? Speaker's find (brought up from the PCL) and a veteran of San Quentin. This guy who nobody's ever heard of basically won the 1920 pennant for the Indians, going 7-0 with 6 CG's and 2 shutouts in August and September, as the Indians proceeded to edge the White Sox by 2 games, with the mighty Yankess only a game behind.

Then in the World Series, Mails shut down Brooklyn for 6 innings in relief of Caldwell's rocky start. He then proceeded to throw a three hit, 1-0 masterpiece in game 6.

His ERA was 0.00 in 16 World Series innings, and he had an ERA+ of 205 during his starts in August and September of 1920.

Had he been a Yankee or played in NY, people would know the guy just for his heroics that one year. As it is, you would be hard pressed to find even more than a handfull of die hards who even know his name.

[Ubiquitous]

Besides Mariano I can't really think of any player from the last run that is going to be remembered for his actions in the decades to come.

Yankee World Series wins haven't really been all that memorable after 1996. Two sweeps and a 5 game series.

Will anybody (besides Mariano) stand the test of time? Will they be remembered like Jack Morris, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, Joe Carter, Bill Mazeroski, and Brooks Robinson? I don't think so, again when it comes to the biggest series in the business it matters very little the jersey one is wearing.

[Victory Faust]

Same for Luis Gonzalez. Same for Joe Carter. Those guys didn't play for New York or Boston yet those guys are immortalized for their moments.

I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not saying great moments involving other teams never get air play. As pointed out, the Gibson, Carter and Gonzalez "moments" are etched in our memories, as are Bill Mazeroski's homer and Jack Morris' Gave Seven masterpiece.

What I'm saying is that lesser moments involving NY or Boston often get precedence over greater things in baseball history that hardly ever get mentioned because they happened in Pittsburgh, or Cincinnati.

The point of the thread, though, wasn't to just whine, although I certainly wanted to bi*tch about it a little! :grouchy

I was hoping fans from other teams would share some of the obscure moments in their teams' histories...the stuff we don't see or hear about, but which are far better moments than an outfielder making a nice catch on Joe DiMaggio.

[csh19792001]

I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not saying great moments involving other teams never get air play.

I was hoping fans from other teams would share some of the obscure moments in their teams' histories...the stuff we don't see or hear about, but which are far better moments than an outfielder making a nice catch on Joe DiMaggio.

I think that was the impetus behind my post earlier. ;)

[Victory Faust]

Who knows anything about Duster Mails? Speaker's find (brought up from the PCL) and a veteran of San Quentin. This guy who nobody's ever heard of basically won the 1920 pennant for the Indians, going 7-0 with 6 CG's and 2 shutouts in August and September, as the Indians proceeded to edge the White Sox by 2 games, with the mighty Yankess only a game behind.


Wow, no, I never did hear of this guy, although I'm going to look him up. I wonder what he was in San Quentin for?

There's some karmic justice in the fact that an ex-con beat out the crooked White Sox for the pennant!

[Ubiquitous]

Wow, no, I never did hear of this guy, although I'm going to look him up. I wonder what he was in San Quentin for?


I think it had something to do with being inside his mother's womb.

[Victory Faust]

The big boy in 1940 was not Newsom, although shame on you for calling him a common journeyman- it takes a DAMN good pitcher to lose 200 games (and even in the short term, Newsom was 21-5 that year).


Thank you. You're right -- Bobo was 10 times the ballplayer Gionfriddo was, so if someone wants to imply that moments should be immortalized based on the ability of the players involved, Bobo would win that matchup hands-down.

Bobo was a colorful character, although if you look at how he bounced from team to team, it's clear he must have been getting on someone's nerves!



Floyd Giebell was the man. Needing a win over Cleveland to clinch the pennant on the last day of the season, for God knows what reason, Del Baker passes over Newsom, Bridges, and Rowe, and puts in rookie Giebell, who shuts out Bob Feller and the Indians 2-0 to win the title. Giebell was not eligible for the series and never won another major league game. King for a day.



It wasn't the last game of the season, it was the opening game of a series at Cleveland. The Tigers needed one more game to clinch the pennant, and Baker figured whoever he threw out there was going to lose to Feller anyway, so he threw Giebell out as a sacrificial lamb.

And Giebell, who would never win another ML game, pitched a shutout to beat Feller, who only gave up three hits himself.

The circumstances surrounding that season-ending series are interesting, and, in keeping with the theme of this thread, would have been played up huge if they'd happened in you-know-where. Here's a fascinating account of the Indians' weird 1940 season I found on the web:



Birdie Tebbets was a Detroit Tiger who had a crate of tomatoes dropped on his head from the upper deck of Cleveland Municipal Stadium in 1940 by a Cleveland fan named Armen Guerra. The crate knocked him unconscious, and he has very fortunate he was not killed. How did the set of circumstances unfold? Pay attention, as there will be a quiz later.

In 1940, the Cleveland Indians were dubbed the Crybaby Indians by the rest of baseball. They had some bad apples on the team, Ben Chapman, Jeff Heath, and a knockdown pitcher named Johnny Allen who was extremely mean to autograph-seeking children. However, the reason they were given the Crybaby tag was a group of players in June went to the team president, Alva Bradley to have manager Ossie Vitt fired. Vitt was the type of guy who was known to say things like,” How am I supposed to win with him?” when Bob Feller had a bad day.

Well, word leaked out around the league, and opposing fans let the Indians players have it. At the time, the soda “pop” bottle was a dangerous thing at ballparks as surly fans had realized the pop bottle was an accurate projectile. Some hooligan thought it would be witty to throw a baby bottle at an Indian, and the trend caught on across the league, fans began throwing baby bottles at the Indians. As the season wore on, the Indians players began to become unnerved. They blew a five and a half game lead down the stretch.

On September 19th, the Indians pulled into to Detroit tied with the Tigers. When the Indians were leaving the train, a horde of Tigers fans began bombarding them with eggs, tomatoes, and verbal insults. The police had to sneak the Indians through the baggage room and through an alley to safety. Many citizens of Detroit ensured the Indians did not sleep well while they were in town by carousing outside the Indian’s hotel, many with musical instruments. The Indians’ dugout was decorated with diapers while Tigers fans pushed baby carriages across the dugout roof throughout the game.

Detroit took two out of three from the Indians, and Cleveland fans waited with grim determination until September 27th, when the Tigers came to town. The 27th was Ladies’ Day, and the left field seats contained 15,000 women and their families, all loaded for bear. Before the game, the Tigers were pounded with fresh produce. Tiger outfielder Hank Greenberg was drilled with a tomato as he chased down a fly ball. The umpire, Bill Summers, hopped on the public address system and threatened to forfeit the game. This had an immediate effect on the Cleveland faithful as all hell broke loose with a fruit barrage.

The Cleveland PD began moving through the stands to arrest the people throwing fruit. at this point in the afternoon, Armen Guerra decided it was time to use his cunning as to avoid arrest. Clad in a brightly striped sweater, he dropped his evidence, a tomato crate, over the deck. It landed squarely on Tebbetts’ head, and umpire George Pipgras was certain he was dead.

The police quickly apprehended Guerra, and took him to the Detroit clubhouse. Tebbets, now conscious, beat up Guerra while the cops looked the other way. Guerra, who earlier had dropped the crate on Tebbets, had the gall to charge file criminal assault charges. Tebbets was acquitted, and the Tigers won the pennant. Oddly enough, Tebbets finished his career in Cleveland and later became a manager of the Indians.

Sigh, and people want to return to the *Golden Days*.

[DoubleX]

Your seriously not claming his sock was painted red, are you?

There is some speculation about that. GQ rant an article a couple of months ago that listed the 10 most hated athletes as rated by their peers. Schilling came in the top 5, and the article made mention that a number of his peers suspect that the bloody sock was a hoax (or at least an embellishment). There's actually a thread about this in the Red Sox forum.

[DoubleX]

Better stories? Such as a single catch by a journeyman outfielder (Al Gionfriddo) in a series his team lost in seven games? Nah, you're right...there's no NY bias.

You are also right in that I did err on which game it was. However, despite the implication, my error has absolutely no bearing on my argument.

Whether Bobo's masterpiece happened in Game 5 or Game 16, are you honestly trying to make the argument that a single catch by a journeyman player on a losing team in the '47 Series is a better "moment" than a journeyman pitcher dedicating a game to his father, who died during the Seres, then pitching a shutout?

If you are, it's not a very strong argument.

My point is: We hear and see SO MUCH about the Gionfriddo catch. That was always one the clips shown in every baseball history video I ever saw, and it was often mentioned in the books, too. But we hear NOTHING about Bobo's game.

I've lived in New York for most my life (with 5 years in Boston), and have heard very, very, very, very, little mention of Al Gionfriddo's catch. Perhaps it's just a Detroit thing, for some weird reason? :p

[DoubleX]

Besides Mariano I can't really think of any player from the last run that is going to be remembered for his actions in the decades to come.

Yankee World Series wins haven't really been all that memorable after 1996. Two sweeps and a 5 game series.

Will anybody (besides Mariano) stand the test of time? Will they be remembered like Jack Morris, Kirk Gibson, Carlton Fisk, Joe Carter, Bill Mazeroski, and Brooks Robinson? I don't think so, again when it comes to the biggest series in the business it matters very little the jersey one is wearing.

The 2001 WS would have had it's share of Yankees-hyped moments had the Yankees won. Particularly the game-winning home runs in the Bronx.

[Matthew C.]

I don't believe that's true. Curt Schilling is a media whore, and had he been pitching in Game 6 of the championship series for any team, I'm sure he would have brought attention to his bloody sock so he could portray himself as the hero. Schilling is a big name, and he was long before he came to Boston. As the ace of any playoff team, with a personality that loves to cater to the media, he would be getting a lot of media attention irrespective of what jersey he is wearing in the series. Baseball is a game that loves having heroes, Schilling knows this, the tv execs know this, and I think on any team in that ALCS situation, Schilling's bloody sock would have been played up as a heroic moment.

What makes me so upset is that so many people see that bloody sock and think of Schilling as being a model of toughness and durability. I have mentioned many times that Schilling has only started 30 games six times in his entire career. In 18 years! Schilling has pitched fewer than 2,950 Inning in his career, for a total of 164 per season. Schilling is no warrior or workhorse.

[DoubleX]

What makes me so upset is that so many people see that bloody sock and think of Schilling as being a model of toughness and durability. I have mentioned many times that Schilling has only started 30 games six times in his entire career. In 18 years! Schilling has pitched fewer than 2,950 Inning in his career, for a total of 164 per season. Schilling is no warrior or workhorse.

I think that's why some people think it was a fakery - that Schilling was trying to create this stoic image for himself. But I totally agree with you. After '04, people everywhere were pronouncing Schilling as a Hall of Famer, and it's like they totally forgot his career before that point (or the fact that he got destroyed in his first outing in the '04 ALCS, after which the camera showed him in the dugout seemingly crying). For a supposedly great and dominant pitcher, he has missed a lot of time in his career. He's 39, been in the bigs for 18 years, and still hasn't cracked 200 wins - you'd think a great and dominant and certainly a Hall of Fame pitcher, would have done that in 18 years. There's no question Schilling is a terrific pitcher when he's been healthy, but that's been the exception in his career.

[jrh31584]

and as to 87- one of the greatest clutch pitching performances ever- Doyle Alexander comes from Atlanta, and in only 11 starts for the Tigers goes 9-0 with a 278 ERA+ and 3 shutouts down the stretch. Even though he only started 11 AL games, only Jeff Reardon among pitchers finishes higher than Alexander in the MVP voting, and as to the Cy Young, well, go look at the voting results and innings pitched and tell me how many starting pitchers have ever got a first place vote with less than 100 IP.

These things would be remembered better in larger media cities.

The Doyle Alexander trade is remembered in Atlanta, but more for who the Braves got in return. Not many people realize how well Alexander pitched for Detroit that year.

[Victory Faust]

The Doyle Alexander trade is remembered in Atlanta, but more for who the Braves got in return. Not many people realize how well Alexander pitched for Detroit that year.


Detroit fans certainly remember, and it's a constant debate whether it was worth it to trade away a Hall of Fame pitcher to get into the playoffs.