Old Guy's swing [Archive] - Baseball Fever

LClifton

03-10-2006, 11:13 PM

Jim,
I echo the standing up comments.
One thing I see,
Take your hands with you when you stride, keep them nearer your back shoulder.
My opinion is that if you maintain the original angle (box) you swing more efficiently. The "elongation" of the box(stretching of the lead arm) may cost you some quickness.
I know some hitters do this. Just a suggestion.
One last thing, you may experiment with over doing your tilt and as you begin to "explode" up into the ball you may be better able to feel the benefit of maintaining your posture. It's hard, I know, I do the same thing.

For what it's worth I think you swing pretty darn good for 56 yrs. old.

If I said I like everything about your swing,,,,,could I come hit at your facility?

Sincerely,
LClifton

tom.guerry

03-10-2006, 11:21 PM

Jim-

I agree with fungo that the stand up loses the necessary pinch at waist.You have to sit all the way into toe touch and drop and tilt.

You turn the hip back with the inward turn, but don;t really cok the hip or keep it cocked.

There can be no "carry" without good hip cock/retention.The retention of hip cok means once you have gotten the hip coked and eliminated the stand-up,you thenyou have to fix the "premature external rotation" of the lead leg which requires not only keeping the front foot closed longer/leading with the heel, but learning the right arm action sequence (arm action is king) and synching the lower body to it.

In spite of this poor start to the swing, you do shift weight forward well and have a good firming of front side and lead arm connection and use of front leg, but without the good beginning of the swing (inward turn/hip cock/retention) you can not get "early" batspeed quickness- max batspeed is way out front.

Without good "rubberbandwinding" you are unable to make late adjustments.

I woud recommend you get a copy of Hodge's biomechanic baseball and see his demonstratin of good synchronized back arm and lead leg external rotation (rubberbandwinding) and good lead arm internal rotation as it apples to throwing,then translate this info to hitting.

rob

03-11-2006, 08:16 AM

I don't think I have ever offered an analysis on anyone but I figure my analysis won't ruin your potential major league career so here goes.

I think you need to lock in your hands (your box) or do some sort of scap load to help your hands feel like they are part of your body before you start your turn. I also think you stand up a little during your stride and you need to remain tilted over and as a result, after you complete your swing the fact that you had remained tilted over would leave your upper body sort of leaning over the plate more.

Jake Patterson

03-11-2006, 08:55 AM

Jim,
If it's any consolation you look a hell of a lot better at 56 than I do at 50. Keep swinging!

I'll leave the eval to others....

jsiggy

03-11-2006, 09:42 AM

Agree with fungo and ohfor - good load of your middle at setup is lost as you stride and start to swing.

I don't know if you're rotating from the middle or not... but you don't have Dixon's "carrying" of the middle in your stride.

Another item I noticed is you seem to lose the forearm-bat angle early.

Overall pretty nice swing though.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/forums/jim--load.gif
http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/forums/ortiz-load.gif

LClifton

03-11-2006, 10:46 AM

Another item I noticed is you seem to lose the forearm-bat angle early.

These words depict a clearer explanation.

Take your hands with you when you stride, keep them nearer your back shoulder.
My opinion is that if you maintain the original angle (box) you swing more efficiently. The "elongation" of the box(stretching of the lead arm) may cost you some quickness.
My attempt...

I like your choice of words jsiggy.....

LClifton

ElCaminoSS

03-11-2006, 11:55 AM

Is that at the Ball Yard batting cage? It sure looks like it

jbooth

03-11-2006, 08:15 PM

OK, I thought I'd let everybody have a crack at helping me make that over 50 all-star team.:D

Remember, I'm almost 56 years old, so be nice, the muscles don't work like they did at 30.

Here's my latest swing; There are 3 or 4 flaws I'm aware of, let's see if you see the same ones and/or more.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/jbmar06.mpg

We all agree on some stuff and I disagree on some others.

My self-evaluation;

No doubt, popping up during the front foot lift. It's driving me crazy. I had it pretty well fixed, and it's come back. It reduces some of the power of the hip rotation.

My hands are staying at the shoulder during rotation, but I'm supinating (turning the palm up) my right hand for some reason before I even get to front foot contact. I'm not doing it as bad as I was a few months ago, but I can't seem to stop it. I think it is a mental thing. I'm trying to make sure I get the bathead down onto the plane of the pitch, and I'm lowering the bathead with my hand instead of trusting that it will get down and around with the shoulder turn. Not really sure why it's happening.

I disagree that the front arm is off. I extend back to load and set the box angles before the shoulders turn, and the elbow angles remain intact during the shoulder turn. And the hands stay at the shoulder. The wrist/bat angle improperly changes, not the elbow angles or the hand position. That causes a loss of bathead acceleration because the angular momentum effect is reduced. The hands move in an arc, but the angle at the hands is not sufficient enough to let the angular momentum accelerate the bathead.

I think I'm going to go back to a no-stride. I don't pop-up when I do that and I think I rotate better. The hand thing, I'm just going to have to keep working on. Does anybody have a drill to keep the bat/hand angle at 90 degrees?

hiddengem

03-11-2006, 08:22 PM

jbooth

03-11-2006, 08:35 PM

Jim, why do you consider the front foot opening early not as big a deal as others do?

Because I don't believe it has any effect on the hip movement. My leg rotates within the hip socket, the hip doesn't move any different than it would if I landed closed. It's just more comfortable and allows me to turn fully. I can't turn the hips with my foot closed.

If somebody can explain how the physics are improved by landing closed, I'm open to change.

Golfers have their foot slightly open to get a full hip turn. Why does a baseball swing need the foot closed? I'm truly asking for an answer. If I'm wrong then I'll learn something. But, I need some proof through physics or a valid reason that it effects the ability to get the bat on the ball before I'm going to be convinced.

hiddengem

03-11-2006, 08:39 PM

jsiggy

03-11-2006, 08:39 PM

No doubt, popping up during the front foot lift. It's driving me crazy. I had it pretty well fixed, and it's come back. It reduces some of the power of the hip rotation.

I hate to sound like a broken record but understanding Dixon's idea of "carrying" will clear this up IMO. (Unless you're saying that you know what it is but just unable to do it yet?) Watch some pitchers clips as they seem to defy gravity... the middle driving forward while the rear leg remains firm. Same idea.

The wrist/bat angle improperly changes, not the elbow angles or the hand position.

This is what I was saying... so obviously I agree. :)

I think I'm going to go back to a no-stride. I don't pop-up when I do that and I think I rotate better. The hand thing, I'm just going to have to keep working on. Does anybody have a drill to keep the bat/hand angle at 90 degrees?

Steve E of course.

jbooth

03-11-2006, 08:49 PM

(Unless you're saying that you know what it is but just unable to do it yet?)

Yes, I know exactly what I should do, and how to do it, I just can't seem to get it locked in to a consistent move.

fungo22

03-11-2006, 10:17 PM

Because I don't believe it has any effect on the hip movement. My leg rotates within the hip socket, the hip doesn't move any different than it would if I landed closed. It's just more comfortable and allows me to turn fully. I can't turn the hips with my foot closed.

If somebody can explain how the physics are improved by landing closed, I'm open to change.

There can be no "carry" without good hip cock/retention.The retention of hip cok means once you have gotten the hip coked and eliminated the stand-up,you thenyou have to fix the "premature external rotation" of the lead leg which requires not only keeping the front foot closed longer/leading with the heel, This is another way to say what several of us are suggesting. Both legs need to provide an "anchored platform" for your hips/torso to rotate "against." Try striding with your hips and knees adducted (pinched toward each other) with your ass (especially the right side) sticking out - or even pointed toward the pitcher). Tom's "leading with the heel" of the front foot in your stride is a "cue" to help achieve this. All of these suggestions may help better "carry the middle forward" and maintain both your posture and especially your load into foot plant.

It's just more comfortable and allows me to turn fully. I can't turn the hips with my foot closed. Yup. Because you're old and you haven't practiced it. I'm not as outdated as you are, but it was difficult for me at first as well. It is even difficult for a lot of younger hitters. Don't give up just because you can't do it or it feels uncomfortable at first. Accept the possibility that your body may have to learn to move very differently from anything that you considered "proper," natural or efficient in the past and that it will require using previously unused muscles and developing new areas of flexibility.

About six months ago, I suggested you pinch both knees together and just turn hard into a closed front leg. Pinching your front knee rearward will help maintain "isometric tension" in the front leg necessary to provide the stability in the front hip joint. This will enable the "gate to slam shut" around a stable "hinge post." As you rotate, keep pinching the knee rearwards so that the knee doesn't fan out.

It is true that in HG's clip, Pujols's knee does open, but it is his rotation that opens it up. When he drops his heel, this tension is there. And given the present stage of development in your rotation, it will be necessary for you to practice these movements to learn how to rotate more efficiently. In my opinion. It will not feel comfortable or be easy to do this at first. But I'm only 3 years younger than you and I learned to do it. It was key for me. From what I see in your swing, it will help you as well. Again, my opinion.

On the subject of better maintaining your "hinge" or hand/bat angle early in your shoulder turn and the drills for working on it. Do you have the DVD? Drill #1 is the one that I would recommend. If you don't have the DVD, I would recommend it. Many of your questions will be answered.

jbooth

03-12-2006, 06:15 AM

Yup. Because you're old and you haven't practiced it. I'm not as outdated as you are, but it was difficult for me at first as well. It is even difficult for a lot of younger hitters. Don't give up just because you can't do it or it feels uncomfortable at first.

About six months ago, I suggested you pinch both knees together and just turn hard into a closed front leg. Pinching your front knee rearward will help maintain "isometric tension" in the front leg necessary to provide the stability in the front hip joint. This will enable the "gate to slam shut" around a stable "hinge post." As you rotate, keep pinching the knee rearwards so that the knee doesn't fan out.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better. Your theory makes no sense to me. My knee doesn't "fan out" and the foot angle has no direct relationship to the hip rotation.

IMO, the theory behind keeping the front foot closed, is to help prevent lunging and/or forward movement of the torso and to keep the front leg at an angle to keep the upper body centered between the legs. It prevents the knee from flexing and allowing hip slide.

The goal is to rotate the hips. It is easier to rotate them with the foot open. I can rotate and still keep my head centered. My head doesn't lunge after foot contact. My leg braces and straightens, it doesn't collapse. I'm very well centered during rotation, and my hips rotate well. Why would I want to force myself to make rotating difficult for no reason?

If a hitter can't stay centered, or keep his knee from collapsing forward, then he should close his foot. If he doesn't have that problem, there is no need to keep the foot closed.

Explain to me how keeping the foot closed HELPS rotation or provides more force. I don't see how it can do anything but make rotation more difficult.

It is true that in HG's clip, Pujols's knee does open, but it is his rotation that opens it up. When he drops his heel, this tension is there. And given the present stage of development in your rotation, it will be necessary for you to practice these movements to learn how to rotate more efficiently. In my opinion. It will not feel comfortable or be easy to do this at first. But I'm only 3 years younger than you and I learned to do it. It was key for me. From what I see in your swing, it will help you as well. Again, my opinion.

My rotation in these swings is inefficient due to lack of proper coil/uncoil, and because the popup decreased my knee bend which hinders the ability to turn, it has nothing to do with the angle of the foot at foot plant. Pujols' foot plants at an angle, not closed. The tension is to keep the knee from flexing and to stay braced. It doesn't create better rotation.

The good hitters start rotating the hips before the front foot is fully weighted. The turning begins early. The front LEG is used to keep the rotation occurring around a stationary axis. Whether the leg braces to keep the axis centered, with a closed or open front foot, is irrelevant. The pelvis rotates around the top of the thigh bone. The angle of the bone from hip to the ground is important. The direction that the knee is pointing is of little importance.

Your front leg is the pole that you rotate around. The angle of the pole and its stiffness is important, not the amount of angle of the foot.

Here's a couple of Hall of Famers (Ted Williams & Babe Ruth) with their foot planted just like mine and they did alright.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/RuthTed.jpg

Here's Mickey Mantle with the same angle:

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hitters/mantle swing.gif

Ohfor

03-12-2006, 07:09 AM

The goal is to rotate the hips.

As fungo says....yup.

But, the goal is not to spin them.

fungo22

03-12-2006, 08:59 AM

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better. Your theory makes no sense to me. Before I learned to do it, it made no "sense" to me either because (1) I (like you) didn't (and still don't) cognitively understand how the muscles work and (2) I (like you) had never experienced or felt the contribution of a closed front foot/knee to more efficient rotation. So I don't expect it to make sense. In fact I don't really expect you to try it. We've been wrong about everything else. We're probably wrong about this too.

My knee doesn't "fan out" and the foot angle has no direct relationship to the hip rotation. Of course it doesn't. It is already open before your "hip rotation" begins. Nor did I say your front knee fanned out. I said that if you tried swinging with the front foot/knee turned rearwards, that you should maintain the tension so that the knee doesn't fan out as your rotate, which it is apt to do.

IMO, the theory behind keeping the front foot closed, is to help prevent lunging and/or forward movement of the torso and to keep the front leg at an angle to keep the upper body centered between the legs. It prevents the knee from flexing and allowing hip slide. You're right. But that doesn't mean it can't also function as I've described.

The goal is to rotate the hips. It is easier to rotate them with the foot open. Then why is your hip rotation so ... uh ... mediocre?

I'm very well centered during rotation, and my hips rotate well. Why would I want to force myself to make rotating difficult for no reason? (1) You didn't really understand my post. It would not be you who is making rotating well difficult. It is already difficult on its own - especially for a 56-year-old guy whose body is not used to doing it (2) Why don't you take a survey: Ask how many people think you are rotating well?

My rotation in these swings is inefficient due to lack of proper coil/uncoil, Wait, I thought you said your hips were rotating well. The suggestions I made were intended to help you maintain and more efficiently unload proper coil.

The tension is to keep the knee from flexing and to stay braced. It doesn't create better rotation. Yeah, yeah. You're right. I'm full of crap. As usual.

The good hitters start rotating the hips before the front foot is fully weighted. The turning begins early. The front LEG is used to keep the rotation occurring around a stationary axis. Whether the leg braces to keep the axis centered, with a closed or open front foot, is irrelevant. The pelvis rotates around the top of the thigh bone. The angle of the bone from hip to the ground is important. The direction that the knee is pointing is of little importance. The operative term is "good hitters." I was trying to help you develop something you don't have (in my opinion) that good hitters do have: ballistic hip rotation. And I'm not talking about bone angles. I'm talking about adductor muscle tension. Hey old-timer, if you can learn to efficiently load/unload, coil/uncoil without doing what I've suggested, more power to you. I just haven't seen it yet, and I've done my best to explain what I think will help. This is my last effort on this subject.

Your front leg is the pole that you rotate around. The angle of the pole and its stiffness is important, not the amount of angle of the foot. I'm not talking about the front foot only. I'm talking about the entire front side from the hip down. Everything should be adducted to maintain isometric tension.

Here's a couple of Hall of Famers (Ted Williams & Babe Ruth) with their foot planted just like mine and they did alright. The operative terms are Ted Williams and Babe Ruth.

swingbuster

03-12-2006, 02:22 PM

Hip Rotation

If somebody can explain how the physics are improved by landing closed, I'm open to change.

Golfers have their foot slightly open to get a full hip turn.

Golfer make a hell of a hip coil in the back swing. They coil into the rear hip and good baseball players do too

Jim...think about total degrees of rotation. If you coil minus 28 then you can block closed and still have decent TOTAL ROTATION.

If you do not coil at all and you open at rotation ...you no better off and whats worse you did not maintain any energy coiled back into the hip to preserve to release when foot plant blocks stride momentum.

Broken record....you will not find the fix where you think you will. It starts in hand loading( getting the wrist forearm angle right)/ hip coil, plane transition/ upper -lower body synching.

.

The good hitters start rotating the hips before the front foot is fully weighted. The turning begins early. The front LEG is used to keep the rotation occurring around a stationary axis. Whether the leg braces to keep the axis centered, with a closed or open front foot, is irrelevant. The pelvis rotates around the top of the thigh bone. The angle of the bone from hip to the ground is important. The direction that the knee is pointing is of little importance.

Forget the front side...not a teaching point until you learn to coil the hips during the stride. If you fail to do this it is all irrelevant. The front side is happening to late in the swing. Work on the preswing /load and let the front side accept weight transfer. Your front foot will know what to do ...that is all BS.

I have tried to apply that S*** and it is to far down stream to work a good hitter. Never seen a guy load negatively and properly and then screw that up....not possible. A case of seeing something on clips and trying to make it a teaching point. Front foot has more to do with batters mental approach to plate coverge.

Ohfor

03-12-2006, 03:47 PM

I will personally kick his butt if Steve gives in to your "insaneness" and gives you a DVD for free.

That can be the only reason for your spewage of this garbage.

You are one cheap ass. A veterinarian, with a baseball side business (you expect others to spend their money on your sh*t, which is worthless, but you won't spend yours on his; in the pool hall we have a saying for your type) Your being too cheap to buy a DVD which answers your questions raises questions about your motivation.

I won't quit.

swingbuster

03-12-2006, 04:02 PM

I missed you guys while I was on vacation....really did.

I don't know who they are quoting in those boxes... sorry.. it doesn't matter. I don't agree with it Ohfer. You have said that Tony Gwynn was clueless .....but that was OK.

I didn't say that...I said that in my hands it has not helped hitters as much as focusing on other area. For me it is BS. How much can you take to practice or to the plate in a game

This is an open forum debate. There is no censorship here and I don't mean anything I say here AGAINST anybody. If you want to start your own site you can probably screen all the post or block certain addresses.

This is a free hitting discussion board. You don't have to read or participate in it and that goes for any and all of us. Nobody gets slammed here more than me.

I still say...if you can fix the hip coil negative move OR the front side landing then you better focus on the load. I stand by that as I have seen most of the posted kids have a very weak hip load.

I will personally kick his ass if Steve gives in to your "insaneness" and gives you a DVD for free.

Steve and I are fine Ohfer. DVD or not. I respect him and his work.

Ohfor

03-12-2006, 04:16 PM

Please, coherent posts.

I've no interest in censorship.

I do believe honesty is a good policy though. And I only respect honest posters.

swingbuster

03-12-2006, 04:55 PM

And I only respect honest posters.

Ohfer I am 51 years old and nobody has ever said I was dishonest until now. Your the sole member of that club.

Your being too cheap to buy a DVD which answers your questions raises questions about your motivation

I have told him to send it twice and I would pay him. I mail product every day with that arrangement. maybe he just hasn't gotten around to it...he is busy

Ohfor

03-12-2006, 05:01 PM

Llive with it.

I bet the membership increases in proportion to the rate that you ingore Steve's information.

jbooth

03-13-2006, 07:46 AM

As fungo says....yup.

But, the goal is not to spin them.

Please describe spinning them and why it is bad, and provide the name you use for what you believe is the proper action, and how it is different from spinning and better.

ssarge

03-13-2006, 08:07 AM

I have told him to send it twice and I would pay him. I mail product every day with that arrangement. maybe he just hasn't gotten around to it...he is busy

Donny, this is ridiculous.

While it may be your business model, it is NOT Steve's. I sent him a check before he sent me his material, and I'll bet everyone else has, too.

Plus, you are asking him to send material to someone who has been openly skeptical, and is extremely visible in public forums. And who has a commercial product whose use Steve's material may not necessarally support. Beyond that, the material could be easily duplicated / replicated / passed on. And without proper context - meaning just parts of it could be passed on. Which would position NOONE'S instructional material in optimal circumstances.

And, you are asking him to trust you that he is not doing it for free.

I can't speak for Steve, and don't know if I am capturing his thought process accurately. But I do think you need to reconsider your approach, here.

Regards,

Scott

jbooth

03-13-2006, 08:07 AM

Of course it doesn't. It is already open before your "hip rotation" begins. Nor did I say your front knee fanned out. I said that if you tried swinging with the front foot/knee turned rearwards, that you should maintain the tension so that the knee doesn't fan out as your rotate, which it is apt to do.

Please explain how rotating the leg within the hip socket affects the swing. And since I'm NOT apt to fan it (not a problem with my swing), why do I need to turn it in.

You're right. But that doesn't mean it can't also function as I've described.

Yes, but explain the pros and cons, or what detriment placing the foot at a 45 degree angle has, and what benefit keeping it at 90 degrees has. I HONESTLY need to know your opinion. I have studied this and I truly can't find any facts that support a requirement to stay closed in order to get more power. Staying closed can solve other problems, but I don't see how it relates to power.

Then why is your hip rotation so ... uh ... mediocre?

I don't think it is mediocre. It is less than optimum because my legs straightenend during the rotation, which inhibits generating optimum speed of rotation, but I think the rotation itself is pretty darn good. I've compared it frame by frame from just at front foot CONTACT (not full weight), to ball contact and I don't see hardly any difference between me and the big boys. Please show me a huge flaw.

Wait, I thought you said your hips were rotating well. The suggestions I made were intended to help you maintain and more efficiently unload proper coil.

Yeah, yeah. You're right. I'm full of crap. As usual.

I didn't say you were full of crap. We're discussing a difference of opinion and I'm trying to understand your point of view. It may be correct, but you haven't provided enough evidence to convince me at this point.

The operative term is "good hitters." I was trying to help you develop something you don't have (in my opinion) that good hitters do have: ballistic hip rotation. And I'm not talking about bone angles. I'm talking about adductor muscle tension. Hey old-timer, if you can learn to efficiently load/unload, coil/uncoil without doing what I've suggested, more power to you. I just haven't seen it yet, and I've done my best to explain what I think will help. This is my last effort on this subject.

I agree that my coil/uncoil is off. I think I said that already. I simply don't understand how landing the foot closed is relevant to that. The uncoil happens before the front foot is weighted, and IMO you can continue to rotate with the foot closed, or at 45 degrees.

I'm not talking about the front foot only. I'm talking about the entire front side from the hip down. Everything should be adducted to maintain isometric tension.

Need more detailed info on this statement. Why and how does this work.

I guess the problem I'm having with what you're saying is; you're telling me to fix something that is not a flaw (bracing of front leg) and that that will help the REAL problem, which is a poor coil/uncoil. Am I wrong in that thinking? I'm confused.

Mark H

03-13-2006, 09:50 AM

[QUOTE=jbooth]Because I don't believe it has any effect on the hip movement. My leg rotates within the hip socket, the hip doesn't move any different than it would if I landed closed. It's just more comfortable and allows me to turn fully. I can't turn the hips with my foot closed.

QUOTE]

You need to understand Dixon and you need to understand what Paul said and what Steve says about pelvic loading and unloading. Watch what Pujols knees do in relation to each other in terms of timing as opposed to what yours do.

Mark H

03-13-2006, 09:52 AM

[QUOTE=jbooth]

If somebody can explain how the physics are improved by landing closed, I'm open to change.

QUOTE]

KEEPING the front foot closed is a training protocol to force you to learn to do what you need to do with your hips.

Mark H

03-13-2006, 09:55 AM

My knee doesn't "fan out"
[/IMG]]

I beg to differ. Runs off and leaves the back knee alone, lonesome and pelvically unloaded. Look at the examples you give and look at the Pujols clip.

Mark H

03-13-2006, 10:00 AM

I will personally kick his ass if Steve gives in to your "insaneness" and gives you a DVD for free.

Better get him in the first ten seconds. I guarantee you he will out last you. ;)

Mark H

03-13-2006, 10:05 AM

Please describe spinning them and why it is bad, and provide the name you use for what you believe is the proper action, and how it is different from spinning and better.

I believe the accepted definition is non sequential rotation though sometimes spinning is used to describe rotation with an axis somewhere other than the front hip joint. Spinning (the first definition) is, I believe, considered an intermediate step on the way to good rotation.

Mark H

03-13-2006, 10:11 AM

By the way Jim, my compliments on your tenacity for learning and on the distance you have covered these last few years.

swingbuster

03-13-2006, 11:23 AM

Plus, you are asking him to send material to someone who has been openly skeptical, and is extremely visible in public forums. And who has a commercial product whose use Steve's material may not necessarally support. Beyond that, the material could be easily duplicated / replicated / passed on. And without proper context - meaning just parts of it could be passed on. Which would position NOONE'S instructional material in optimal circumstances.

And, you are asking him to trust you that he is not doing it for free.

Scott,
I can hit the ball with the HBH on the rise with weight shift and vertical bat loading OR I can stay back and land a foot soft and hit the ball at the top or on the fall. You can too if your the athlete you probably are. My product is only in conflict with any instruction if you want to no stride.

Beyond that, it is in the details of using the product and the drills and objectives matching the intent of the teacher and the age of the kids.

In the south, we take our word personally. I did what I told you I would do to the letter. The thought that he wouldn't ship me because he thinks I would not pay him is not a good one for me.

Different worlds....big insult. I don't believe he feels that way. Let him speak for himself on that one please.

There is a big difference to find yourself on the other side of a "taste great ; less filling debate" but quite another to steal from someone. Besides he never sent me his mailing address . You and Ofher know that?

4for4

03-13-2006, 12:07 PM

Scott,
I can hit the ball with the HBH on the rise with weight shift and vertical bat loading OR I can stay back and land a foot soft and hit the ball at the top or on the fall. You can too if your the athlete you probably are. My product is only in conflict with any instruction if you want to no stride.

Beyond that, it is in the details of using the product and the drills and objectives matching the intent of the teacher and the age of the kids.

In the south, we take our word personally. I did what I told you I would do to the letter. The thought that he wouldn't ship me because he thinks I would not pay him is not a good one for me.

Different worlds....big insult. I don't believe he feels that way. Let him speak for himself on that one please.

There is a big difference to find yourself on the other side of a "taste great ; less filling debate" but quite another to steal from someone. Besides he never sent me his mailing address . You and Ofher know that?

You set up your business model and you follow it. If you deviate, you fail. You know that. This ain't backslapping stuff down at the watering hole.

ssarge

03-13-2006, 12:17 PM

Different worlds....big insult. I don't believe he feels that way. Let him speak for himself on that one please.

There is a big difference to find yourself on the other side of a "taste great ; less filling debate" but quite another to steal from someone. Besides he never sent me his mailing address . You and Ofher know that?

No, I didn't know that.

And I think it is a stretch to say I was accusing you of stealing. In fact, I don't believe you would ever do that. My intent was simply to say that expecting someone to deviate from his business model might be asking a lot.

But regardless, I think your point is fair. You're right, Steve should speak for himself, and I have no right to do it. Which I basically said in my post, but then went ahead and did it anyway.

My bad, sorry, Donny.

Scott

ssarge

03-13-2006, 12:25 PM

I can hit the ball with the HBH on the rise with weight shift and vertical bat loading OR I can stay back and land a foot soft and hit the ball at the top or on the fall.

I get this, and did it myself w/ the one you sent me.

I agree that no stride would be a limitation.

Thanks,

Scott

swingbuster

03-13-2006, 06:12 PM

4x4

We do enough vet work for people every year that can't pay us that would buy a BMW so I don't have one. Never really wanted one anyway. I live in the third poorest county in the US. If I followed the " business model " bad things would happen . I know all about getting
" beat" for money but I still do many things on instinct and trust as much as possible. If you need something I have for $150...you can get it man. You can pay me when you get it. There! Life at the water hole ............it does exist. It is the utimate show of respect in the south

Scott,

Apology accepted. Your a cut above and I wasn't kidding when I said my friend.

DB

ssarge

03-13-2006, 06:19 PM

Apology accepted. Your a cut above and I wasn't kidding when I said my friend.

Thank you, Donny. Much appreciated.

Scott

jsiggy

03-13-2006, 06:42 PM

Scott,
In the south, we take our word personally. I did what I told you I would do to the letter. The thought that he wouldn't ship me because he thinks I would not pay him is not a good one for me.

I usually try to avoid the non-baseball bickering stuff, but...

Buster please... I'm from the south too. Besides taking our word personally, we can also smell a load of b.s. and this comes across like an absolute load of crap. Your southern honor is somehow being besmirched by Steve not shipping in advance of payment? How about your southern morals when you're out here misrepresenting his stuff because you don't know what it really is. Somehow that's okay????

Why not just send a check? Agenda?

Ohioteamz

03-13-2006, 11:44 PM

With Steve being such a slick talking brooklyn accent kinda guy, I could see why Swingbuster is playin' the southern card. I think Steve could have easily been one of those frogs on the bud commercials or one of Tony Soprano's Captain's. :D

C'mon Buster lighten up on the honor thing,Steve's a great guy. I'll never forget my sis-in-law in either Memphis or Birmingham (can't remember which city she was in at the time) asking me when I was going to "move to the south". I was in DFW at the time.

tom.guerry

03-13-2006, 11:53 PM

Jim-

This is some motionanalysis data from top level mlb swings:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/10685.html

"......In this loading phase, which many of you call a backwards weight shift, the best athletes have a slight change in the position of the hips and shoulders, closing to a position of approximately 25 degrees of the hips and 40 degrees of the shoulders {X-Factor is now approximately 15} (This is accurate to 1mm) ....."

Very similar to the yeager info Buster quotes. It is vital to get the inward turn and hip cok right or you have no chance at swing quickness/early batspeed. Instead it makes you a dead stop hitter.

With regard to front foot closed-

The front foot will want to stay closed until the back arm externally rotates.The upper and lower body need to move in synch and this coordinated limb action (synchronized external rotation) is the key to timing the loading sequence well between the upper and lower body.

The important thing is that the sequence/timing ("rhythm") is correct. This isWAY more important than whether the front foot is closed or open when the front foot comes down.

My speculation is that for a short bellyup swing style (which is preferredto/quicker than the off the plate style) the front foot should open before toe touch as Epstein describes.

Alternatively, you could try the off the plate Lau/Brett style and REALLY turn your back (sets contact point back/permits "early batspeed", but longer swing not quite as quick) and in this case the front foot will come down before the synched external rotation opens the front foot.

So one thing that determines foot position is this load/timing/sequence.

Stance will also influence what the hips do.

Closed stance/stridingclosed forces the back hip to turn/rotate around the front, but overall rotation can be slowed becasue front side has a hard time getting out of way.It alos encourages "hiding hands" loading hands in behind more.

Open stance/stepping in bucket risks pushing back hip forward not rotating. so be carefu not to slide too much if you stride open. The hands will want to "hide" less and while the front side can get out of the way more easily,this should not be at the expense good rotation which can be degraded due early hip slide due to lack of hand hiding or too much lateral shift/slide of hips.

There is a widely held belief (by Dixon among others) that if the front leg turns open,the whole front side has to follow and fly open. This is not so.The key to not flying open/keeping the front side closed so it can firm up is to kepp internally rotating the lead arm as the back arm and lead leg externally rotate. Once again. arm action here is vital. This internal rotation of the lead arm (as well as shoulder tilt to adjust up/down) has to be prepared for/set up early by the BHUT type action that Buster describes when the hips cok.

Ohfor

03-14-2006, 08:04 AM

In the other thread you say you're sending your check to Dixon before getting the product....(envelope stamped already)....just forgot or haven't gotten around to it.

What's the difference here?

swingbuster

03-14-2006, 10:13 AM

Why not just send a check? Agenda?

Never got an address and asked twice. Does the tape arrive faster than the address?

The key to not flying open/keeping the front side closed so it can firm up is to kepp internally rotating the lead arm as the back arm and lead leg externally rotate. Once again. arm action here is vital. This internal rotation of the lead arm (as well as shoulder tilt to adjust up/down) has to be prepared for/set up early by the BHUT type action that Buster describes when the hips cok.

Tom...They have no idea what loading is in a two plane swing and how it synchronizes the entire reactive part of the swing and adds effortless power and gap to gap direction. What is worse is they will not walk out in the back yard and try it when most of the HOF players do it and exercise physiologist show and describe in slo mo. I have tried one plane and two plane swings.

swingbuster

03-14-2006, 10:30 AM

The difference is that I have Dixons address and I thought from my conversation with Steve that he was shipping the tape.....my misinterpretation. On the second conversation I asked " where is my DVD. He said he did not get a check and I said I did not get an address.

I felt like at that point that he maybe did not want me to have it or something so I let it lay.

ssarge

03-14-2006, 10:52 AM

The key to not flying open/keeping the front side closed so it can firm up is to kepp internally rotating the lead arm as the back arm and lead leg externally rotate. Once again. arm action here is vital. This internal rotation of the lead arm (as well as shoulder tilt to adjust up/down) has to be prepared for/set up early by the BHUT type action that Buster describes when the hips cok.

Tom, my friend, I just can't keep up.

kepp internally rotating the lead arm as the back arm and lead leg externally rotate.
Not the words I would use to describe scap loading and pelvic loading, but OK, potato / potato.

Once again. arm action here is vital.
Everything that is moving is vital, or it shouldn't be moving. Cause and effect though. It isn't the arm moving INSIDE the shoulder joint. It is a proper loading of the shoulders which causes the arm to change positions.

(as well as shoulder tilt to adjust up/down) has to be prepared for/set up early
If you broaden "shoulder tilt" to "torso tilt," I couldn't agree more.

I will add, however, that I don't see why it is important to do it all that early if the shoulder isn't going to move lower until rotation starts. Am I mischaracterizing Esptein? Don't you need some momentum downeard with the shoulder in order to drive that rear knee down (hinge?) Isn't this "VITAL" to the swing?

I know words have limits, Tom. I often run into the same barriers. But as I try to tie together what you are advocating - from day to day, and post to post, I just can't make it all fit. There are leaps of logic where I don't see the connection (could well be MY limits, I DO get that). There are statements that seem (to me) contradictory. There is a lot of "What XXX MEANS here is. . ."

I know it all ties together in your head, and I truly respect that. But I can't get it into mine. And I wonder how a hitter could ever get it into his?

tom.guerry

03-14-2006, 11:06 AM

Scott-

The late adjustment/avoidance ov excessive separation/control of xfactor dynamics is enabled by using the shoulder link not the torso to do the tilting.

The arm action is well described and demonstarted and is simple as shown on the Hodge tape- biomechanic baseball.

You were one of the first on the list to see my copy.

Did you appreciate what you were looking at ?

It fills in the arm action void nicely.

Mark H

03-14-2006, 11:21 AM

Scott-

The late adjustment/avoidance ov excessive separation/control of xfactor dynamics is enabled by using the shoulder link not the torso to do the tilting.

.

Which is by definition, disconnection.

ssarge

03-14-2006, 11:23 AM

Did you appreciate what you were looking at ?

Well, I very much did appreciate you lending it to me.

"Perhaps not," would be my answer to your question.

The late adjustment/avoidance ov excessive separation/control of xfactor dynamics is enabled by using the shoulder link not the torso to do the tilting.
Again - and I'm NOT being a smart ass - I thought Epstein wanted MAXIMUM separation. Isn't that the point he makes w/ the rubber band?

Best,

Scott

tom.guerry

03-14-2006, 11:56 AM

Mark-

This is not disconnection, it is PRIOR TO connection. You do not get connected until the drop and tilt is over a frame or two (30fps) after front heel is down.

The adjustment of axis/timing of unloading/swing plane is done prior to connection including a last quick stretch to reverse efficiently (cusp) enabling momentum transfer to be as near instantaneous as possible.

The shoulders need to tilt as the hips turn so they RESIST turning with the hips to finish load,hence the cue "drop (hip turn via front leg as pivot) and tilt (shoulders create last bit of loading)".

tom.guerry

03-14-2006, 11:58 AM

Scott-

I do not want max separation except perhaps occasionally when teaching by exaggeration.

As I have repeatedly mentioned,xfactor stretch rather than absolute xfactor is what is essential.

ssarge

03-14-2006, 12:07 PM

I get that, and agree, you have said that.

But I am trying to reconcile w/ the swing instructional system you say is most valid. And doing so believeing that the average person who buys that system - or any other - is not going to deviate one iota from what is PRESENTED ON THE VIDEO.

This is a point of real concern for me, not an argument just to argue. I hope you know that - and suspect you do. My passion is for FP Mom or BB Dad out there who wants their kid to learn to hit, and can't find a good insturctor in his area. Or doesn't realize the instruction the kid is receiving is severely flawed.

I think MOST of those kids would be better off w/ Epstein than w/ whatever they are getting. I KNOW there is an even better choice, though.

Regards,

Scott

ssarge

03-14-2006, 12:21 PM

The shoulders need to tilt as the hips turn so they RESIST turning with the hips to finish load,hence the cue "drop (hip turn via front leg as pivot) and tilt (shoulders create last bit of loading)".

I think that in general, a hitter - especially a young hitter - is better off getting connected early, and staying connected, than he is trying to get the last little BIT of load into his swing.

In MLB, I think that every bit of load which can be accomplished w/out sacrificing quickness is justifiable. Because 365 is an out, and 375 means you're turning left.

But this is WAY far down my priority list for a young hitter.

I'm NOT asking you to post clips. But is it really your experience / belief that concentrating on this is the right developmental process for a hitter? Who is your audience w/ this advice? High school? College?

Most MINOR LEAGUE hitters don't do what you are suggesting, and the ones who do may well be riding a plane instead of a bus very soon.

However, those hitters who make it to the Minor Leagues ARE connected in their swings.

Is the "disconnect" (semi-intended) here that you are describing an abstract for the world's best 500 hitters, and most of the rest of us are trying to build a foundation for young hitters?

I AM in awe if you are seeing / experiencing young hitters doing the kinds of things you are describing here. It just quite simply is NOT my experience.

And again, it apparently is not the experience of your instructor model, either. If you believe a hitter can go from "bat on deltoid" to "the adjustment of axis/timing of unloading/swing plane is done prior to connection including a last quick stretch to reverse efficiently (cusp) enabling momentum transfer to be as near instantaneous as possible," and "the shoulders need to tilt as the hips turn so they RESIST turning with the hips to finish load,hence the cue "drop (hip turn via front leg as pivot) and tilt (shoulders create last bit of loading," without about 10 years of trial and error, then I am stunned.

Regards,

Scott

tom.guerry

03-14-2006, 02:18 PM

Hitters can do this arm action organized pretty high level patetrn young and fairly easily just like there are those that have good throwing mechanics early.

You don't want to teach something different to younger ones than older.

With respect to the Epstein approach, I have said it was the best overall framework as you know based on my posts describing the high level/MACRO assumptions that are in the right hierarchical order.

best swing is adjustment you make,belly up is preferred swing,start on time,hips lead hands,hands stay in,match plane,good detailed explanations/drill sequences.

Not perfect, but best overall framework based on his experience playing and teaching including reconciling it with Williams.

that is pretty powerful stuff. I would say he may not explain the details scientifically/objectively/clearly/simply, but no one does.

Still the best approach is to figure out what it is he is describing becasue he is describing the high level mlb wood bat swing that is best for women's fastpitch as well.

I think this is superior to someone who describes things objectively when what they are describing is NOT the high level swing (for example describing a late batpeed type connected spin as opposed to an early batspeed quick/whip).

I would certainly agree that a kid might do better with Steve E in person as opposed to how dad interprets Epstein in many cases, depending on dad's ability to interpret (difficult) and teach offspring(near impossible).

But is that a fair comparison ?

Why not compare Mike in person to Steve E in person over time ?

That will take a while. That's a problem.

Ohfor

03-14-2006, 10:15 PM

Guarantee Mike quits before Steve.:D

ssarge

03-15-2006, 12:25 AM

Why not compare Mike in person to Steve E in person over time ?

That will take a while. That's a problem.

Sure, reasonable.

Two thoughts:

1) The AVERAGE person isn't going to see either in person, just watch the DVDs. And I submit to you that the average hitter will do better w/ Steve's pproach.

2) IN terms of in-person visits, Steve will come to you. Which may be considerably more convenient than going to Boulder.

Regards,

Scott

fungo22

03-15-2006, 01:29 AM

Please explain how rotating the leg within the hip socket affects the swing. And since I'm NOT apt to fan it (not a problem with my swing), why do I need to turn it in. You might very well be apt to fan it if you try to rotate with it closed.

A "trainer's perspective" would be helpful here and i don't have it. And you haven't misinterpreted Dixon or engaged in any of the other activities that arouse his interest, so it's possible that the "trainer's perspective" will not be forthcoming. But I've been exposed to that perspective and I've experienced some of what I'm advocating in my own swing development. so I'll try to answer your questions.

Yes, but explain the pros and cons, or what detriment placing the foot at a 45 degree angle has, and what benefit keeping it at 90 degrees has. I HONESTLY need to know your opinion. I have studied this and I truly can't find any facts that support a requirement to stay closed in order to get more power. Staying closed can solve other problems, but I don't see how it relates to power.

(1) The closed angle forces/allows pelvic muscles in the front side to engage.
(2) The isometric tension in the adductor muscles in the inside of the front thigh is key in creating the stability necessary for efficient "slamming the gate shut" around an "fixed" or "anchored" front hip. This, in turn, is part of the efficient rotation that facilitates the "hook."

I don't think it is mediocre. It is less than optimum because my legs straightenend during the rotation, which inhibits generating optimum speed of rotation, but I think the rotation itself is pretty darn good. I'm not as kind as the others, who probably won't give their opinion unless you solicit it. As I said: Take a survey. If I'm outvoted, I'll reconsider. In my best judgment, it isn't pretty darn good. I've already said in my first post what I think is driving what little rotation you have.

I've compared it frame by frame from just at front foot CONTACT (not full weight), to ball contact and I don't see hardly any difference between me and the big boys. Please show me a huge flaw.I count 7 frames from the instant the bat head starts moving forward to contact. Too many of them are before the knob changes direction.

I guess the problem I'm having with what you're saying is; you're telling me to fix something that is not a flaw (bracing of front leg) and that that will help the REAL problem, which is a poor coil/uncoil. Am I wrong in that thinking? I'm confused.
It will help with the poor coil/uncoil. But I think the way your front side opens is a flaw.

Try this drill: Stride and load in your normal way (open front side), but don't unload and swing. Hold your load. Now lift your back foot and set it down so only the end of the toe is touching the ground. Now rotate and swing with only the front hip.

Now Stride and load, but land with the front side closed, pinching the front hip and knee to the rear. Lift your back foot and set it down so only the end of the toe is touching the ground. Now rotate and swing with only the front hip.