I miss Mirabelli and Arroyo

[yankeekiller34BigPapi]

It's REALLY evident that the Sox need these guys. Bard tied Mirabelli's passed balls tonight and Mirabelli had six passed balls for the ENTIRE LAST SEASON!!:hp
As far as Pena goes, I don't see why the Sox went out of their way to get this guy. Yeah he has potential for the future, but right now HE SUCKS!! He can get some hits here and there when he isn't striking out, but his defense is ATROCIOUS!!
Arroyo would no doubt do better than Clement and Dinardo/Wells, cuz they certainly couldn't be much worse!! Clement needs to go, they should try to get Bronson back with a trade. :laugh Don't even get me started on Wells, that fat ass needs to retire.

[FlashGordon]

It's REALLY evident that the Sox need these guys. Bard tied Mirabelli's passed balls tonight and Mirabelli had six passed balls for the ENTIRE LAST SEASON!!:hp
As far as Pena goes, I don't see why the Sox went out of their way to get this guy. Yeah he has potential for the future, but right now HE SUCKS!! He can get some hits here and there when he isn't striking out, but his defense is ATROCIOUS!!
Arroyo would no doubt do better than Clement and Dinardo/Wells, cuz they certainly couldn't be much worse!! Clement needs to go, they should try to get Bronson back with a trade. :laugh Don't even get me started on Wells, that fat ass needs to retire.The only argument you'll get from me is that you need to be careful about keeping the language PG-13. But the spirit of your post is how I felt when they traded Arroyo and even a little bit when they traded Mirabelli.

As I've said before, Wakefield is a great guy and a beloved member, but his over-value is becoming apparent. I think that is in no small part due to the loss of his battery mate. There's a reason he stuck with Mirabelli over our captain Jason Varitek. It's like having only one sock.

[YOUgodofwalks]

Wakefield's overvalue? He eats up innings and still turns in good starts. Last night he was fine, the bullpen gave up some more runs after he left and the offense couldn't score any. He's certainly never has been or will be anywhere close to anyones ace but he's a solid pitcher and his value shouldn't be dimished just because his new personal catcher can't catch him and the offense gives him no run support.

[VTSoxFan]

Wakefield's overvalue? He eats up innings and still turns in good starts. Last night he was fine, the bullpen gave up some more runs after he left and the offense couldn't score any. He's certainly never has been or will be anywhere close to anyones ace but he's a solid pitcher and his value shouldn't be dimished just because his new personal catcher can't catch him and the offense gives him no run support.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Sean Casey]

Mirabelli was certainly a substantial loss for the Red Sox, but getting Mark Loretta in exchange was certainly something that the Red Sox could not turn down, no matter how badly Bard might end up doing this year.

[FlashGordon]

I had a full response to this and realized that no matter how I phrase it, it comes out sounding like a call to trade Wakefield. So I'm starting over.

I have no desire to trade him and I think he's worth every penny of his salary, but I would't go so far as to say he would be worthy of twice his salary. This thread about Mirabelli and Arroyo points out that, right now, we could use someone like Arroyo to fill Wells' spot (especially if he retires mid-season) and that Mirabelli behind the plate would help to keep Wakefield stable. As much as I loved Mirabelli's throwing arm (especially across the diamond), we wouldn't be missing him nearly so much if it weren't for the fact that his absence makes Wakefield's outings more of an adventure than they have been over the last couple years. What I most remember about Wakefield pre-Mirabelli was far less stable than the man we've watched since he arrived.

[FlashGordon]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Bronson Arroyo threw eight innings of one-hit ball, and the Cincinnati Reds jumped out to an early lead just as they have all series in a 5-0 victory over the Washington Nationals on Wednesday that completed a three-game sweep.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260426120

[SoxSon]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Bronson Arroyo threw eight innings of one-hit ball, and the Cincinnati Reds jumped out to an early lead just as they have all series in a 5-0 victory over the Washington Nationals on Wednesday that completed a three-game sweep.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260426120

Two starts ago, Bronson gave up 5 earned runs in five innings. Gotta take the bad with the good. ;)

[Sean Casey]

Ok, I think it's obvious that Bard isn't making any progress in catching a knuckleball. He's already more than doubled his career totals in passed balls, and he shows no signs of improving. ANyone else think that the Red Sox might want to give someone else an audition? Like Huckaby?

[TonyK]

You can never have too much pitching. That's why it took the Sox so long to win the World Series.

[FlashGordon]

Two starts ago, Bronson gave up 5 earned runs in five innings. Gotta take the bad with the good. ;)Very true. But Bronson's good has added up to 4-0 over 5 starts, 30 Ks, and a 2.34 ERA. Those numbers are sure to come back to earth as he becomes a known quantity in the NL, but he's hardly pitching like the 7th wheel many in this forum made him out to be.

[Lansdowne Street]

It seems to me that Bronson Arroyo just wasn't going to fit his potential with the Red Sox. I've wondered if pitching coach Dave Wallace had problems handling the Guitar Man. After all, when Arroyo started missing the strike zone, he never really found it again. Perhaps that's just his MO, but it wouldn't be a leap to believe that Arroyo could find a spot as a big-time starting pitcher somewhere, considering his raw stuff.

Now that he's off to the Reds, I think everybody will be better off. Wily Mo Pena wasn't doing well in Cincinnati, so a change of scenery (where he's currently filling the Gabe Kapler role of outfield reinforcement) should do him well. Arroyo will get the spotlight as the ace of a team that came in with a terrible staff. Unfortunately, I know absolutely nothing about Cincinnati Pitching Coach Vern Ruhle, so I can't say anything about how he might deal with Arroyo.

As for Mirabelli, I think they could use his defense as well, but I don't know. I just can't understand how Josh Bard doesn't know everything about catching a knuckleball. After all, he is currently paid to start every fifth day and catch a knuckleball pitcher. If that was your one-and-only job of the moment, wouldn't you work as hard as humanly possible to do it right?

Bard should be Tim Wakefield's best friend right now. Because at the moment, Josh Bard's sole duty with the Red Sox is to catch Wake. If he can't do that, he's no better than a plethora of other backup backstops. Right now, he's the Wakefielder. If he doesn't shape up, they might want to try somebody else.

...Anybody else.

[pesky6]

Why is it that, after games like last night, everyone's lamenting about Mirabelli and Arroyo? Yeah, Arroyo's pitching well, but c'mon. . . he's in the NL, with essentially an 8-man lineup. It's still too early in the season to be doing stuff like this, so quit with this kind of fecal matter.

Look at the bright side. . . Rivera coughed up another one last night ;)

[FlashGordon]

Why is it that, after games like last night, everyone's lamenting about Mirabelli and Arroyo? Yeah, Arroyo's pitching well, but c'mon. . . he's in the NL, with essentially an 8-man lineup. It's still too early in the season to be doing stuff like this, so quit with this kind of fecal matter.

Look at the bright side. . . Rivera coughed up another one last night ;)I don't see "everyone" here lamenting. I am keeping an eye on how Arroyo is doing and so far, he's doing quite well. Say what you want about the 8-man line-up, Arroyo's numbers still place him among the best in the NL at the moment. And there are some big names over there, such as another pitcher who used to wear the red sox.

I do agree about Mo's sudden vulnerabilities. When the D-Rays can work you for 2 runs in extra innings, something's not clicking as it should. I try not to indulge in schadenfreude, but that's one spot I can't help myself in.

[Jager]

The only person who took the loss tougher than Wakefield was Bard. His four passed balls were the most by a Boston catcher since Jason Varitek dropped five of Wakefield's knucklers on May 28, 1999, in a game also played at Jacobs Field. Doug Mirabelli, Wakefield's most recent batterymate, also had four passed balls on July 29, 2003, against the Rangers.

Bard has 10 passed balls on the season. Mike MacFarlane holds the dubious team record with 26 in 1995, Wakefield's first season in Boston.


#1 I think Bard can destroy that single season record.
#2 I do think this shows that everyone (even Mirabelli) have had their troubles catching the knuckler

[SoxSon]

Very true. But Bronson's good has added up to 4-0 over 5 starts, 30 Ks, and a 2.34 ERA. Those numbers are sure to come back to earth as he becomes a known quantity in the NL, but he's hardly pitching like the 7th wheel many in this forum made him out to be.

The key part of what you just said is NL. With the increased attention and the change of leagues, Bronson was bound to have a better time with the Reds, at least for now. I'm not knocking Bronson at all...most here know where I stood on that trade. But he would still be at the back of our rotation in Boston, so we shouldn't pine away because of his performance so far in Cincinnati.

[FlashGordon]

The key part of what you just said is NL. With the increased attention and the change of leagues, Bronson was bound to have a better time with the Reds, at least for now. I'm not knocking Bronson at all...most here know where I stood on that trade. But he would still be at the back of our rotation in Boston, so we shouldn't pine away because of his performance so far in Cincinnati.Who's pining? I think it's a shame we don't have him at the back of our rotation, especially since his salary would have justified it, but pining? I believe you'll find a greater inability to put matters behind us in another thread: you know, the one about bashing Johnny Damon.

[SoxSon]

Who's pining? I think it's a shame we don't have him at the back of our rotation, especially since his salary would have justified it, but pining? I believe you'll find a greater inability to put matters behind us in another thread: you know, the one about bashing Johnny Damon.


Your post about Arroyo's latest performance began with a unhappy sigh emoticon. It seemed to be pining. I apologize if I'm wrong.

I don't see much of a connection between the most recent Damon thread and this one (if the interview thread is the one you mean). I hope I can understand your motive in mentioning it.

[blaire576]

think Arroyo's performance is okay :rolleyes:

[Francoeurstein]

Im so glad I snagged Arroyo near the 20th round of the fantasy draft!!!

[FlashGordon]

Your post about Arroyo's latest performance began with a unhappy sigh emoticon. It seemed to be pining. I apologize if I'm wrong.Smilies as animated as the ones here can be useful but deceiving. Yes, there's part of my that is sorry he's not here, but the frown was more tongue-in-cheek.

I don't see much of a connection between the most recent Damon thread and this one (if the interview thread is the one you mean). I hope I can understand your motive in mentioning it.In both cases we see an emotional response to recent personell changes that won't be undone. Even though Damon left of his own accord vs. the trade for Arroyo, both cases reflect an inability to put the event 100% behind us and move forward. It may seem that wistful thinking about Arroyo and Mirabelli and the anger and bitterness aimed at Johnny Damon are completely different, but they are just shades of the same phenomenon--a lingering wish that things had gone differently.

[SoxSon]

Smilies as animated as the ones here can be useful but deceiving. Yes, there's part of my that is sorry he's not here, but the frown was more tongue-in-cheek.

Ok. :)



In both cases we see an emotional response to recent personell changes that won't be undone. Even though Damon left of his own accord vs. the trade for Arroyo, both cases reflect an inability to put the event 100% behind us and move forward. It may seem that wistful thinking about Arroyo and Mirabelli and the anger and bitterness aimed at Johnny Damon are completely different, but they are just shades of the same phenomenon--a lingering wish that things had gone differently.

While I don't know how Pena will turn out, Arroyo's been doing well and our rotation makes some of us increasingly anxious without him on the back end. So...it's natural to wonder what it might be like if he were back in Boston (that's why I used "we shouldn't pine," if you'll notice); on the other hand, Damon chose what he wanted, and Coco seems like a decent replacement, so for some fans, that line of thought is more of a "I can't believe he went to NY" kind of thing. I really don't think there are many Boston fans left who wish things would've gone differently with Damon, given his acquired allegiance to NY, but I suppose I could be wrong. That being said, putting Damon 100% behind us is also probably an unrealistic expectation, considering that the Yankees are our division rivals. So, aside from in an intellectual discussion, I guess I still don't see the two as particularly connected.

[MudvilleMike]

You just don't trade a solid starting pitcher for an OF unless he's really good. The jury is still out, but this trade only makes sense if you believe Pena can be a top slugger. If he never moves beyond a part-time player (or mediocre starter), this will go down as a horrific trade.

If losing Mirabelli means we've lost Wakefield, it's another horrific trade, but one that I completely supported at the time.

[FlashGordon]

You just don't trade a solid starting pitcher for an OF unless he's really good. The jury is still out, but this trade only makes sense if you believe Pena can be a top slugger. If he never moves beyond a part-time player (or mediocre starter), this will go down as a horrific trade.

If losing Mirabelli means we've lost Wakefield, it's another horrific trade, but one that I completely supported at the time.I have to admit, although I was sorry to see Mirabelli go I never thought that his absence would be felt as strongly as it has.

And as for Arroyo/Pena, Hartford Courant Red Sox correspondant, David Heuschkel, has an article in today's paper under the title, "Early Returns Favor Reds." (http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/redsox/hc-soxnotes0429.artapr29,0,4793666.story?coll=hc-redsox-headlines) He (like myself) allows that it is still very early in the season, too early to write the final assessment of the trade. But since we are now 1 month into the season and Bronson has had 5 starts, it certainly isn't too early to give initial impressions. Another piece of information that should be weighed is that the Red Sox have just yielded the top spot in the AL East to the Jays (who have been very impressive), while the Reds beat Roy Oswalt yesterday for the first time and in the process have slid into a 1/2 game lead in the N.L. Central.

By the way, I don't intend to keep hitting this note every time Bronson Arroyo has a start, even if it is a quality one. However, if he produces something big I'll be sure to mention it (I felt that his 1-hit outing last time around qualified) and we'll be checking back in to see how this trade panned out at the ASB and at the end of the season. Why? Because I felt pretty alone in opposing the "Theo makes another brilliant move" assessment that was even more premature than handing Arroyo the NL Cy Young in April. There was even one newer member who suggested my opinions were eminating from someplace other than my mouth. :mad:

We shall see. :evil

[Mattingly]

Crazy Yankee fan question #10,001:

If you closed your eyes, which trade would you undo if you had a chance?

Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena

Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta

Neither? Both? Either?

Just curious. :)

[SoxSon]

Crazy Yankee fan question #10,001:

If you closed your eyes, which trade would you undo if you had a chance?

Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena

Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta

Neither? Both? Either?

Just curious. :)


Neither, right now. Ask again in the second half of the season. ;)

[Mariano_Rivera]

Neither, right now. Ask again in the second half of the season. ;)

I would say Mirabelli if I was a Boston fan but what you got in return was great and extremely valuable. In the long run Loretta is more valuable because Bard should learn to catch the knuckleball eventually. Of course I have no idea how long Loretta has left in his contract or how old he is. I think Arroyo's success is just from him leaving the extreme hitters park Fenway.

[FlashGordon]

I'll let you know once I know for sure where Roger Clemens is going. :eek:

[Johnnybegood]

none i would wait til the second half of the season to tell.......:waving

[riverfrontier]

i think arroyo's success has more to do with the change of leagues rather than the change of ballparks. great american park is not a pitcher's park by any stretch. i know he's no schilling, but being a reds fan, i'm very happy with the deal. wiley mo is sam horn for a new generation.

[TonyK]

Crazy Yankee fan question #10,001:

If you closed your eyes, which trade would you undo if you had a chance?

Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena

Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta

Neither? Both? Either?

Just curious. :)


I would undo the Arroyo trade only because in 2008 this board will be loaded with screams about lack of starting pitching. Arroyo is only 29 with playoff exxperience. In 2008, I imagined the rotation would be Beckett..Arroyo..Papelbon..Lester..Rookie/Free Agent. I thought they were planning for the future.

[Jager]

I don't understand how anyone could already be unhappy with the Arroyo and Pena deal. Just because Arroyo is starting great, and just so happens that Wells is down so everyone is feeling down, but Pena was acquired for his potential. In all reality Pena is already doing great. He's hitting .280 and has 3 HR's with limited playing time. If he played a full season he's on pace to hit around 30 HR's. I know to most people .280 with 30 HR's isn't incredible, but HE'S ONLY 24! I still love this trade. Pena needs to gain more plate discipline, but he's could be our next big slugger. You can't gauge this trade by one year, or by an April for that matter.

[Mattingly]

Thanks, folks for the replies. :D

i think arroyo's success has more to do with the change of leagues rather than the change of ballparks. great american park is not a pitcher's park by any stretch. i know he's no schilling, but being a reds fan, i'm very happy with the deal. wiley mo is sam horn for a new generation.
I hadn't thought about that. Well, Sam did replace Billy Buck, who actually was blamed (wrongly, I felt) for a WS loss, but Damon did help the Red Sox (especially his slam at YS-II) for winning that. I'm not too sure I'd call him Sam.

If anybody, it would be Coco replacing JD. I've never heard of anyone likening JD to Buck before, but everyone's mind is different.

Thx for your time! ;)

[MudvilleMike]

I don't understand how anyone could already be unhappy with the Arroyo and Pena deal. Just because Arroyo is starting great, and just so happens that Wells is down so everyone is feeling down, but Pena was acquired for his potential.

Regardless of Arroyo's perforamnce this year, he was a solid starting pitcher, which is a highly desirable commodity. We gave up a lot and we're really feeling it. Whether Pena will prove worth it or not remains to be seen. It could be a great trade, but it involves considerable risk.

[MudvilleMike]

I would undo the Arroyo trade only because in 2008 this board will be loaded with screams about lack of starting pitching. Arroyo is only 29 with playoff exxperience. In 2008, I imagined the rotation would be Beckett..Arroyo..Papelbon..Lester..Rookie/Free Agent. I thought they were planning for the future.

Hopefully the future will include Pena and Ortiz mashing 80 HRs a year.

[Mattingly]

I just heard that Boston just traded back for Mirabelli from San Diego. Is that right? I'm hearing he's back in the lineup for Wake tonight.

EDIT:

Mirabelli to catch Wakefield tonight vs. Yankees (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2428645)

The Boston Red Sox have finalized a trade to obtain catcher Doug Mirabelli from the San Diego Padres in exchange for catcher Josh Bard, minor-league pitcher Clay Meredith and cash, ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney is reporting.

Mirabelli, Tim Wakefield's normal catcher last season when Mirabelli was with the Red Sox, will be in the starting lineup Monday night against the Yankees.

The Yankees also tried to obtain Mirabelli to keep him from returning to the Red Sox.

The Red Sox traded Mirabelli to the Padres for second baseman Mark Loretta in December. The Padres' compensation in this latest deal is still unclear.

Mirabelli had been Wakefield's personal catcher in Boston before being traded. In 2005, he batted .228 in just 136 at-bats in 50 games. This season, he is batting .182 in 22 at-bats for the Padres.

He is a career .240 hitter with 47 homers and 165 RBI in 459 career games for Boston, Texas, San Francisco and San Diego.

[Jager]

Yes I just heard it too!!!!!! In the interview it says the Yankees tried to trade for Mirabelli just to keep the Sox from getting him. Those ********. Sorry for the language, but believe me that I mean something far far worse to them. lol.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2428645

[Mattingly]

Yes I just heard it too!!!!!! In the interview it says the Yankees tried to trade for Mirabelli just to keep the Sox from getting him. Those ********. Sorry for the language, but believe me that I mean something far far worse to them. lol.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2428645
Confirmed in the ESPN article.

Nothing unique, since the Yanks wanted to insure that Bartolo Colon didn't go to Boston, so they sent El Duque to Montreal in a 3-way deal.

I think that these type of deals have been around for awhile, no?

[VTSoxFan]

If that's true... wow. I just told my sister and she said, "YES!!! There is a god!"

But remember (if this is true -- I don't see confirmation yet on redsox.com or the wire reports), it's been a long time since Mirabelli has caught a knuckler. It may take a little while to get back into the swing of it.

That's the best Sox news I've heard in a long long time. Here's hoping Wake bedevils the pinstripers tonight.

[Mattingly]

Annie:

The mlb.com sites are usually the last ones to post these. It's like the website is an afterthought at times.

I heard it on the radio, as did Jager, and there's an espn.com article we both linked to this. To me, that's more than good enough to make it "fact".

[Jager]

If that's true... wow. I just told my sister and she said, "YES!!! There is a god!"

But remember (if this is true -- I don't see confirmation yet on redsox.com or the wire reports), it's been a long time since Mirabelli has caught a knuckler. It may take a little while to get back into the swing of it.

That's the best Sox news I've heard in a long long time. Here's hoping Wake bedevils the pinstripers tonight.

Mirabelli will still be MUCH faster getting reacquired to catching Wake than Bard ever could have.

[Mattingly]

Mirabelli will still be MUCH faster getting reacquired to catching Wake than Bard ever could have.
I'm guessing that would be ST all over again between these two. Figuratively speaking, it would be like a guy getting back together with his girlfriend. Kind of like picking up where you'd left off.

They lack the past 9 or so weeks together since pitchers and catchers have reported, but I haven't the foggiest idea whether tonight would've been much better for either of them or not. I think that down the road, I can see far fewer passed balls than what Bard would've had. Tonight's game could be a real tossup.

Nothing on the Padres' site either, but I'm wondering what's in it for them. They gave up a good 2Bman for a backup C.

Now I'm wondering if they'll do a double and trade back for Arroyo. Either that or my mind is just playing games on me again. :o :(

[Boston Boxer]

on ESPN.com Doug for Bard, Cla Merideth (sp?) and cash. Ill take that. Welcome to the Red Sox Doug...it's like you never left.

[bosoxfan33]

Meredith, Bard and cash is what I hear too.

Bard was here for one reason and couldn't fulfill the task, so no big loss.
Meredith can'y even spell Clay so good riddance ;)

I love the trade. I just wish we could have thrown in Wells.

[DODGER DEB]

Here's is the AP story on the Mirabelli deal.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12579154/from/RS.4/

Way to go, SOX!

c.

[Mattingly]

I love the trade. I just wish we could have thrown in Wells.
I'm hearing that there's a PTBNL thing, so you may get your wish. Of course, this presumes that the Padres would actually want their native son back.

[Red Sox Rule]

on ESPN.com Doug for Bard, Cla Merideth (sp?) and cash. Ill take that. Welcome to the Red Sox Doug...it's like you never left.

I'm pleased he's back. No offence to Bard but he didn't exactly set the red sox nation alight while he was here and from i've heard about his performances he's not been as good a catcher as doug was. Welcome back doug!!!! :)

[CuriousBoston]

He's back!!!!!!!!!! Just in time, too. Can you imagine the welcome that Mirabelli will get tonight? Can you imagine when he and Wakefield first see each other? Can you imagine what Theo and Mira will say to each other? Boy, to be a fly on the wall.

A lot of those Demon signs are gonna have Welcome back Doug on the back. Restock those Mira jerseys!!!!

WAIT!!!!!! The Evil Empire tried to get him...those..those...Steinbrenner minions, those fake chowda eaters, those forked tailers with horns. They don't even have a knuckleballer. Evil,evil,evil...

WAKES AND MIRA!!!!

[SoxSon]

This is great. Essentially, we got Mark Loretta for Josh Bard and Cla Meredith (I know, I know...cash, too). What a deal.
I think folks were way too hard on Bard (like that rhyme?), but this is wonderful news, and I'm glad Doug is back. :gt :)

[FlashGordon]

We really need a "Whew" smiley here. Maybe I'll request one in the improvements forum.

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say I really hope bringing back Mirabelli helps to stabilize Wakefield. The two trades that are mentioned in this thread title really come back to the starting pitching situation and if this means we've stabilized Wake's slot, then it has to be worth it.

Now if we can just cement the #5 slot, we'll only have to worry about the anemic offense. :hp

[SoxSon]

We really need a "Whew" smiley here. Maybe I'll request one in the improvements forum.


To use some more smilies: :laugh :laugh :laugh
Very good!

[Jager]

When Wake see's Mirabelli it will be like a scene from "Brokeback Mountain". lol. "I can't quit you" lmfao. sorry I'm getting carried away, but now if they would just either sign Clemens or call up Lester already I'd be happy.

Oh by the way it says on the Sox site that Mirabelli is scheduled to land at 6pm in Boston, and will have a police escort to the stadium. Let's keep our fingers crossed that he'll make it on time.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060501&content_id=1427247&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

[MudvilleMike]

We really need a "Whew" smiley here. Maybe I'll request one in the improvements forum.

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say I really hope bringing back Mirabelli helps to stabilize Wakefield. The two trades that are mentioned in this thread title really come back to the starting pitching situation and if this means we've stabilized Wake's slot, then it has to be worth it.

Now if we can just cement the #5 slot, we'll only have to worry about the anemic offense. :hp

This is awesome!! :dance

[Sean Casey]

Arroyo just pitched a 4-hit, 1 run complete game against St. Louis tonight.

[Red Sox Rule]

Arroyo just pitched a 4-hit, 1 run complete game against St. Louis tonight.

He's on fire this season. Wonder if the reds would consider swapping him for wells :laugh :laugh :laugh

[SoxSon]

After getting Doug back, has it occurred to anyone else that Boston may try to swing something for Bronson? I realize it would really take something at this point, but I can't say I would be shocked.

[Sean Casey]

After getting Doug back, has it occurred to anyone else that Boston may try to swing something for Bronson? I realize it would really take something at this point, but I can't say I would be shocked.

I would be very surprised if the Reds traded him back. One of the reasons why the Padres were willing to trade him is that they don't have the use for his knuckleball skills that the Red Sox have. However, the Reds are desperate for pitching, so they seem pretty happy with Bronson at this point.

[Jager]

It had nothing to do with the Padres not being able to use Mirabelli as a Knuckleball catcher, origionally they traded for him, and Mirabelli was going to start, but then they signed Mike Piazza, so therefore they didn't really need Mirabelli, so they didn't mind trading back.

[SoxSon]

I would be very surprised if the Reds traded him back. One of the reasons why the Padres were willing to trade him is that they don't have the use for his knuckleball skills that the Red Sox have. However, the Reds are desperate for pitching, so they seem pretty happy with Bronson at this point.


Well, no one has any need for Mirabelli's knuckleball skills but Boston. The Padres never needed that.
I know it would take something of substance for Arroyo...I guess I'm wondering whether anyone thinks Boston might put in the effort?

[FlashGordon]

I know it would take something of substance for Arroyo...I guess I'm wondering whether anyone thinks Boston might put in the effort?Arroyo was very worth it before he was shipped out. However, because he has put in such an impressive start, I rather doubt the price to get him back is one worth paying. Face it, the Reds got the best part of this deal by trading a utility outfielder for a starter.

Their gamble was that Arroyo would be a solid starter and they hit the jackpot because he's pitching like an ace. The Red Sox gamble was that they wouldn't need a starter but would need a right fielder to platoon (and eventually replace) Trot Nixon. There's a whole lot more baseball to be played before that one pays off and it's still a gamble.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Don't u think Meredith and Bard is too much. I mean Mirabelli and Wakefield are old guys and I don't expect to see them for the next 3 years in the majors. At least not Wakefield.

And Meredith is a very good prospect!

[FlashGordon]

I mean Mirabelli and Wakefield are old guys and I don't expect to see them for the next 3 years in the majors. At least not Wakefield.You won't get many around here to agree with you. The conventional wisdom is that, as a knuckle-baller, Wakefield's shelf life will be considerably longer than just about any other position. Because the pitch doesn't put undue strain on the arm, he could very well pitch until he's 50. As a comparison, Joe Niekro pitched until he was 44 and his brother Phil (who started pitching the knuckler sooner in his career) pitched until he was 48! Obviously there are no guarantees that Wakefield will be that durable, but at least he isn't a fastball-slider kind of pitcher.

I don't even remember the last time he was on the DL.

[Evangelion]

Don't expect Arroyo back any time soon. Heck, the Reds are going for 1st place in NL Central. Why would they even consider trading Arroyo back to the Sox at this point? Harang and Arroyo are nice one-two punch in their rotation. The Reds offense has something they have not had in years. PITCHING! :laugh

Arroyo was very worth it before he was shipped out. However, because he has put in such an impressive start, I rather doubt the price to get him back is one worth paying. Face it, the Reds got the best part of this deal by trading a utility outfielder for a starter.

Their gamble was that Arroyo would be a solid starter and they hit the jackpot because he's pitching like an ace. The Red Sox gamble was that they wouldn't need a starter but would need a right fielder to platoon (and eventually replace) Trot Nixon. There's a whole lot more baseball to be played before that one pays off and it's still a gamble.
Agreed. The gamble the Sox took in this deal was shipping Arroyo out, because they expected to have enough starters for the rotation and back-up starter. Obviously, Wells is back on the DL and Papelbon the closer, which forced DiNardo into rotation. Leaving the bullpen without a long relief pitcher. At the moment, the trade does not look good.

Granted, let's not go down too hard on Pena, who has been hitting better since being moved to CF and also not looking as ridiculous in the field. Pena is hitting plus 300. at the moment. Remember, the dude young. While pitchers are hard to come by, Pena could become quite a good baseball player.

You're right. It's still a gamble. Arroyo only been dominating for the first month of the season. Let's not think we got screwed. We can't know that until after the fact.

[Jager]

I disagree with what you said about the trade not looking good. The trade was great. Pena is hitting around .280, and he's getting clutch hits. Pena is only 24! He has such tremendous power that he could easily ding 40 or more homers a year for quite a while. Think about what this kid can be doing when he's 28. For him 28 is still 4 years away. He's the kind of player that doesn't come along very often. He was raw when we got him, but he's already shown signs of improvement. He's still young and eager to learn, plus it certainly doesn't hurt at all that Manny and Papi are helping him with his swing. Before he came here it seems like he didn't know that you could go the other way with the ball, but he's doing that now, and pulling the ball with power gets mixed in. I wouldn't be surprised if Pena is our "Manny" of the future. He has the power, and possibly even more power than Manny, and just has to refine his swing a little more. He's shown so far that he plays better when he's in there everyday, not just spot starting. Imagine what this kid can do once he's playing full time, and has a few year of experience under his belt of playing everyday. I love the trade. Bronson has been great this year, but let's face it, if he was still with us at the end of the year his ERA would have been 4.50 like it has for the past few years. Just because he's pitching great in the NL doesn't mean he can pitch good when he's facing the yankees, Jays, Rays, and Orioles almost 20 times each. The NL is much much different. Not only does the pitcher bat, but most teams only have one real power guy, where the AL usually has two for protection. Bronson's been good this year, but he's almost 30, and he peaked as far as what he could do in Boston. In Boston facing the MUCH tougher opponents he's just a decent pitcher, in the NL he's looking great. Good for him, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that we could have kept him and had a pitcher with an ERA around 2.00. He would have about the same ERA as the past years in Boston. Right around 4.50.

[FlashGordon]

I disagree with what you said about the trade not looking good. The trade was great. Pena is hitting around .280, and he's getting clutch hits. Pena is only 24! He has such tremendous power that he could easily ding 40 or more homers a year for quite a while. Think about what this kid can be doing when he's 28. For him 28 is still 4 years away. He's the kind of player that doesn't come along very often. He was raw when we got him, but he's already shown signs of improvement. He's still young and eager to learn, plus it certainly doesn't hurt at all that Manny and Papi are helping him with his swing. Before he came here it seems like he didn't know that you could go the other way with the ball, but he's doing that now, and pulling the ball with power gets mixed in. I wouldn't be surprised if Pena is our "Manny" of the future. He has the power, and possibly even more power than Manny, and just has to refine his swing a little more. He's shown so far that he plays better when he's in there everyday, not just spot starting. Imagine what this kid can do once he's playing full time, and has a few year of experience under his belt of playing everyday. I love the trade. Bronson has been great this year, but let's face it, if he was still with us at the end of the year his ERA would have been 4.50 like it has for the past few years. Just because he's pitching great in the NL doesn't mean he can pitch good when he's facing the yankees, Jays, Rays, and Orioles almost 20 times each. The NL is much much different. Not only does the pitcher bat, but most teams only have one real power guy, where the AL usually has two for protection. Bronson's been good this year, but he's almost 30, and he peaked as far as what he could do in Boston. In Boston facing the MUCH tougher opponents he's just a decent pitcher, in the NL he's looking great. Good for him, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that we could have kept him and had a pitcher with an ERA around 2.00. He would have about the same ERA as the past years in Boston. Right around 4.50.
Jager,

We all know that you are bullish on Peña and his youth is definitely an advantage, but realize that he is still just a platoon/utility player for the Sox right now on a team whose offense has been very sporadic. I'm sure he'll improve but I'm not counting any chickens until they hatch. Most of us kind of take the hyperbole with a dose of caution because baseball lore is full of guys who looked like the sky's the limit, only to sputter out and never reach their full potential. After all, Peña is a career .240 hitter and his .309 average will probably not last all season either.

As for Arroyo, I don't know how old you are, but calling 29 over the hill (or at least at the top of it) is pretty short-sighted. Schilling's career seemed to hit stride as he approached 29 and, over all, his 30's were better than his 20's. A finesse pitcher like Arroyo (he certainly isn't a power pitcher) usually takes a little longer to come along and there is still room for growth. For the amount of money the Red Sox were going to pay for his services, he was definitely worth keeping around for a little while, especially when 3/5 of the rotation is over 38 years old.

Considering how the Reds and the Red Sox have fared as a result of the trade, it doesn't seem to be in the Red Sox favor. The Sox sent a starting pitcher in return for an offensive outfielder and as a result have still had an anemic offense and a weakened pitching staff. The Reds have not suffered for the loss of Peña in the offensive area and have demonstrated real improvement in their pitching, thanks in large part to Arroyo. At the moment, it is net advantage to the Reds.

Maybe this year or maybe next Peña will become a full-time player and contribute day in and day out, but it is still only a maybe. All you have to do is look at the murmurs surrounding Trot Nixon and how he never completely lived up to his potential to see reason to be cautious. Trot has historically had much better offensive numbers than Wily Mo and even now his numbers are very comparable, yet we're hearing all kinds of chatter about how he's washed up. Over-inflated expectations can lead to huge disappointments, especially when the team does something you don't expect--like package that promising hitter (Soriano ring a bell?) with a minor league prospect to land someone like A-Rod.

[SoxSon]

As for Arroyo, I don't know how old you are, but calling 29 over the hill (or at least at the top of it) is pretty short-sighted.

And quite a serious shot to the ego for many of us. :( :laugh

[SoxSon]

You won't get many around here to agree with you. The conventional wisdom is that, as a knuckle-baller, Wakefield's shelf life will be considerably longer than just about any other position. Because the pitch doesn't put undue strain on the arm, he could very well pitch until he's 50. As a comparison, Joe Niekro pitched until he was 44 and his brother Phil (who started pitching the knuckler sooner in his career) pitched until he was 48! Obviously there are no guarantees that Wakefield will be that durable, but at least he isn't a fastball-slider kind of pitcher.

I don't even remember the last time he was on the DL.

You just presented one of the main reasons (aside from the fact that Wake is the knuckleballer in baseball right now) for my desire to see him stay. Mirabelli will eventually go, and many fans will have to be a bit more accepting of the next "Bard," but Wakefield could theoretically and effectively stay with this club for another 5-8 years.

[Jager]

As for Arroyo, I don't know how old you are, but calling 29 over the hill (or at least at the top of it) is pretty short-sighted. Schilling's career seemed to hit stride as he approached 29 and, over all, his 30's were better than his 20's. A finesse pitcher like Arroyo (he certainly isn't a power pitcher) usually takes a little longer to come along and there is still room for growth. For the amount of money the Red Sox were going to pay for his services, he was definitely worth keeping around for a little while, especially when 3/5 of the rotation is over 38 years old.

Considering how the Reds and the Red Sox have fared as a result of the trade, it doesn't seem to be in the Red Sox favor. The Sox sent a starting pitcher in return for an offensive outfielder and as a result have still had an anemic offense and a weakened pitching staff. The Reds have not suffered for the loss of Peña in the offensive area and have demonstrated real improvement in their pitching, thanks in large part to Arroyo. At the moment, it is net advantage to the Reds.



First off, don't put words in my mouth. I never said that Arroyo was over the hill, or even hinted that he is getting old. The fact is that he's almost 30, and like MOST other pitchers peaked in terms of development. Just because you can name a couple players that have gotten better after that doesn't mean that he is one. Arroyo was good for us, and has been great for the Reds, however it doesn't change the fact that he was our seventh starting pitcher. It just stings a bit because Wells is on the DL, and they have Papelbon closing, so we're down a starter. IMO that's the error of the Sox. Papelbon should be starting, not only because he's a starter, but because we need him. Dinardo is fine for a few innings in long relief, but he's not a good starter. If you ranked our starters what would they be. Mine would be:
Schilling, Wake, Beckett, Wells, Papelbon, Clement, Arroyo. We had 7 starters, it just so happened that Wells went down, and for whatever reason they don't want to move Papelbon to the rotation now. I know he's closing great, but he's a starter, and no matter how great he is as a closer this year he will be starting next year for sure.

Theo had even said that Pena was a raw, work in progress. Do the Reds have the better of the deal right this second? Absolutely, but Pena has all the potential in the world. I don't understand why people wouldn't want to trade their 7th best starter for someone who COULD become a great power hitter for many years to come. All I'm saying is that this wasn't a trade that would pay dividends today, but has the potential to payoff incredibly. I just think its WAY too early to say this wasn't a good trade. It just happens to hurt a little more that we're down a starter. If Wells had pitched like last year and not been on the DL I don't think everyone would be that worried about not having Arroyo.

[FlashGordon]

I never said that Arroyo was over the hill, or even hinted that he is getting old. The fact is that he's almost 30, and like MOST other pitchers peaked in terms of development. Just because you can name a couple players that have gotten better after that doesn't mean that he is one.That remains to be seen.

Arroyo was good for us, and has been great for the Reds, however it doesn't change the fact that he was our seventh starting pitcher. It just stings a bit because Wells is on the DL, and they have Papelbon closing, so we're down a starter. IMO that's the error of the Sox. Papelbon should be starting, not only because he's a starter, but because we need him. Papelbon has closer experience and Foulke is still nowhere near taking back his closer slot. I didn't see any moves to acquire or promote another closer. What's more, Schilling and Wells were both HUGE question marks in Spring Training and there was plenty of buzz questioning which Clement would show up in April.
Dinardo is fine for a few innings in long relief, but he's not a good starter. If you ranked our starters what would they be. Mine would be:
Schilling, Wake, Beckett, Wells, Papelbon, Clement, Arroyo. We had 7 starters, it just so happened that Wells went down, and for whatever reason they don't want to move Papelbon to the rotation now. I know he's closing great, but he's a starter, and no matter how great he is as a closer this year he will be starting next year for sure. For whatever reason? He was a closer in Mississippi State! He was sent down last year to work on his other pitches. You may see real starter material in him, but that has still yet to develop, especially considering that he wasn't even a regular starter above AA, only really developing as a starter in Sarasota and Portland. You are getting way ahead of yourself here.


Theo had even said that Pena was a raw, work in progress. Do the Reds have the better of the deal right this second? Absolutely, but Pena has all the potential in the world. I don't understand why people wouldn't want to trade their 7th best starter for someone who COULD become a great power hitter for many years to come. All I'm saying is that this wasn't a trade that would pay dividends today, but has the potential to payoff incredibly. I just think its WAY too early to say this wasn't a good trade. It just happens to hurt a little more that we're down a starter. If Wells had pitched like last year and not been on the DL I don't think everyone would be that worried about not having Arroyo.To be honest, I'm not really that worried we don't have Arroyo. My issue WAS and HAS BEEN that the trade wasn't such a necessity that it HAD to be made in ST. If you look above, you'll see I've already said I don't think the price to get him back would be anywhere worth it. The problem as I saw it was that we had two guys who were much older than the average starter, plus another, all coming back from injury. You keep labelling Arroyo as 7th best based upon the ideal conditions, forgetting that we had TWO starters who were considered LIKELY to see some DL, or at least extended ST time, one who got drilled in the face last year and was a nervous wreck down the stretch, and a recently acquired starter not known for pitching innings (he has yet to pitch 180 complete innings in a season and averaged 122 IP from 2002 to 2005).

IF, IF, IF, IF...that's all we heard. Arroyo was a known and was sure to buy us some time until we really knew if we had 7 starters, as you say. Come to find out, we didn't.


Finally, I really don't know why you keep jumping back into this debate if the very topic of the thread is counter to what you believe. Mirabelli is back, so that piece of the thread is now moot. The Arroyo half, well the only thing keeping it alive is the fact that he's doing VERY well in Cinci and we're a starter short. If it happens to be that he got off to a great start but will falter down the road, that just proves (to me, anyway) that we should have held on to him for a few months, THEN traded him. Pena will be fine given time and once the Sox figure out who their #5 starter is, so will they.

But I can still miss Arroyo, even if I didn't start this thread.

[VTSoxFan]

That remains to be seen.
Papelbon has closer experience and Foulke is still nowhere near taking back his closer slot. I didn't see any moves to acquire or promote another closer. What's more, Schilling and Wells were both HUGE question marks in Spring Training and there was plenty of buzz questioning which Clement would show up in April. For whatever reason? He was a closer in Mississippi State! He was sent down last year to work on his other pitches. You may see real starter material in him, but that has still yet to develop, especially considering that he wasn't even a regular starter above AA, only really developing as a starter in Sarasota and Portland. You are getting way ahead of yourself here.

To be honest, I'm not really that worried we don't have Arroyo. My issue WAS and HAS BEEN that the trade wasn't such a necessity that it HAD to be made in ST. If you look above, you'll see I've already said I don't think the price to get him back would be anywhere worth it. The problem as I saw it was that we had two guys who were much older than the average starter, plus another, all coming back from injury. You keep labelling Arroyo as 7th best based upon the ideal conditions, forgetting that we had TWO starters who were considered LIKELY to see some DL, or at least extended ST time, one who got drilled in the face last year and was a nervous wreck down the stretch, and a recently acquired starter not known for pitching innings (he has yet to pitch 180 complete innings in a season and averaged 122 IP from 2002 to 2005).

IF, IF, IF, IF...that's all we heard. Arroyo was a known and was sure to buy us some time until we really knew if we had 7 starters, as you say. Come to find out, we didn't.


Finally, I really don't know why you keep jumping back into this debate if the very topic of the thread is counter to what you believe. Mirabelli is back, so that piece of the thread is now moot. The Arroyo half, well the only thing keeping it alive is the fact that he's doing VERY well in Cinci and we're a starter short. If it happens to be that he got off to a great start but will falter down the road, that just proves (to me, anyway) that we should have held on to him for a few months, THEN traded him. Pena will be fine given time and once the Sox figure out who their #5 starter is, so will they.

But I can still miss Arroyo, even if I didn't start this thread.


High fives, Flash. Especially the parts I highlighted.

You and I have also agreed in the past about the kind of off-hand, cavalier attitude the front office has toward the quaint idea of loyalty.

[Jager]

The problem with that Flash is that it was more of a necessity than you make it out to be. We had only 3 outfielders, and Trot seems to be DL bound all the time, and just so happens that Coco went down early. If we didn't trade for an outfielder we would have been in serious trouble. The fact is that Pena has stepped in nicely, and filled CF for a bit. Seriously what would we have done if not for Pena? Mohr, Harris, and Stern all hit terribly while they have been in. Not to mention Trot is still there as a big question mark as well. I think it was much more of a necessity than you make it out to be. The thing is right now we still aren't down a starter. Papelbon just happens to be closing, and even if he moves to the rotation for a few starts, it's likely that he will just get moved right back, and why bother moving him in the first place.

[FlashGordon]

The problem with that Flash is that it was more of a necessity than you make it out to be. We had only 3 outfielders, and Trot seems to be DL bound all the time, and just so happens that Coco went down early. If we didn't trade for an outfielder we would have been in serious trouble. The fact is that Pena has stepped in nicely, and filled CF for a bit. Seriously what would we have done if not for Pena? Mohr, Harris, and Stern all hit terribly while they have been in. Not to mention Trot is still there as a big question mark as well. I think it was much more of a necessity than you make it out to be.My perspective on that is it is much easier to find a decent outfielder than it is to find a decent starter. Stern was very impressive in the WBC and was one of the most eagerly anticipated prospects coming up. The fact that he didn't perform immediately is neither here nor there. Having Pena meant he could be sent back down, but that was after the season started. We have been fortunate (I mean that sincerely) that Pena could step in, but who's to say Stern wouldn't have turned it around or that someone else could have filled that spot.

The thing is right now we still aren't down a starter. Papelbon just happens to be closing, and even if he moves to the rotation for a few starts, it's likely that he will just get moved right back, and why bother moving him in the first place.Just because you keep calling Papelbon a starter, doesn't mean he is one. When I say we are down a starter, I'm saying that based upon the roster slots, and right now Papelbon IS NOT a starter. You could say we are down a closer, but Pap's 12 saves say otherwise. This is a natural slot for him and not a bad way for him to get acclimated to the high-pressure environment of Fenway. Pitching 24 starts in Sarasota and another 14 in Portland doesn't mean he's ready to be a big time starter. I would think that if Papelbon's talent were being squandered in the closer role, Theo would be busy dealing for a new one.

Right now we have a closer; his name is Papelbon. We have 4 starters and one on the DL. And what happens when (if) Wells comes of the DL? We have 5 starters and one closer--named Papelbon. If Arroyo were still with us, we'd have 5 active starters, one on the DL, and one closer--Papelbon. Next year there's a good chance Papelbon will do the Derek Lowe thing and move to the starter slot, but that's next year. And I don't recall anyone arguing when D. Lowe was our closer that he was really a starter. He was simply our closer. You can argue all you want that he should be a starter, but for now he isn't and even during ST there was a good chance he wouldn't be, either.

[BFaymous]

well, we got doug back. we're the padre's overcompinsated? yes. last i checked Bard was hitting something like .385 5 15 in like 18 games. but the bottome line was 10 past balls in like 5 starts, not so hot. dougs our man. Bronson was a beantown boy no doubt. but i honeslty tghink that alot of his sucsess so far this season is a combonation of national league hitters not being farmiliar w/ him. and that fact that he's not pitching in the AL east. Wily mo Pena is going to be a monster slugger who will eventually dwell in the 5 hole behind papi and manny. you have to remember,this kids only 24 and never really played in the minors cause Cin stinks. and since we're on the subject, yes handley ramirez is tearing it up, but you don't have Beckett and lowell w/out that trade. and i'd take that trade any day of the week.

[BFaymous]

all this talk about 5th, 6th, 7th starters. who should close, who shouldn't close? i have the answer that will solve all our problems and we'll never have to post anything on this topic again.


ROGER CLEMENS!


:gt

[SoxSon]

well, we got doug back. we're the padre's overcompinsated? yes. last i checked Bard was hitting something like .385 5 15 in like 18 games. but the bottome line was 10 past balls in like 5 starts, not so hot. dougs our man.

Didn't we effectively get Mirabelli and Loretta for Bard and Meredith (and cash)? I think we did just fine.

[carter08]

Arroyo would have been good in interleague at the NL ballparks

[TonyK]

With 50 games in, we are weak in #4 and #5 starters.

Arroyo's numbers so far are: 76, 68, 22, 17, 59, 2.58, 6-2.

Our #5's incl. Pauley's 2 inn: 35, 58, 29, 15, 17, 7.46, 1-3.

Hindsight is 20-20. We sure could use him now.

[Jager]

Would we have made the trade if we knew our pitchers would be injured? no, but it was still a good deal.

[Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life]

Would we have made the trade if we knew our pitchers would be injured? no, but it was still a good deal.

I've been taking a wait and see approach with regard to this trade. I'm thinking it might not be properly evaluated for a year or 2.

Will Arroyo continue to put up above average stats?, or will he sink back to being a middle of the pack #4 or 5 starter? How about Pena? Will he blossom or fizzle?

I still think the jury will be out on this one for a least another year. I'm hopeful that it will still work out, yet as it stands now, it doesn't look so hot.

Arroyo is doing well, the Sox are short-handed in the rotation, and Pena just went on the DL and will miss 2+ months with wrist surgery.:ughh

[SoxSon]

I've been taking a wait and see approach with regard to this trade. I'm thinking it might not be properly evaluated for a year or 2.

Will Arroyo continue to put up above average stats?, or will he sink back to being a middle of the pack #4 or 5 starter? How about Pena? Will he blossom or fizzle?

I still think the jury will be out on this one for a least another year. I'm hopeful that it will still work out, yet as it stands now, it doesn't look so hot.


I think this is the best approach, Kdub. This was a trade that requires some real time to assess its pros and cons. Evaluating it this season is rushing it, IMO.

[TonyK]

Would we have made the trade if we knew our pitchers would be injured? no, but it was still a good deal.

I hope the front office learned a lesson from this. Of the starting pitchers in April, Schilling and Wells and Clement were question marks (Clement based on his post season performance and being hit in the head by the line drive). That only leaves Beckett, Arroyo and Wakefield that you can sort of count on. I never felt we had one starter too many.

[FlashGordon]

Hindsight is 20-20. We sure could use him now.I think this discussion will probably peter out soon enough, but I do want to say something about the "hindsight" cliche. A look at the threads that discussed this trade when it happened will show that I and a number of other members here saw this coming. There was too much of a rose-tinted outlook for the pitching staff and a short-sighted willingness to ignore the glaring question of the closer's slot. After the calls for Foulke's head last year and his inability to impress during spring training, only the most delusional failed to consider that Papelbon might end up our closer.

Wells had asked for a trade and wasn't even healthy enough for another team to consider. Schilling was a question mark until his first start of the official season. Clement was a real coin toss. Add to all this Beckett's history of spending time on the DL (if he pitches 200 innings this season, it'll be the first time in his career), and there was a real concern that we would need 6-7 starters through the first month--at least. Unless anyone out there would have the will to put Foulke back into the closer's slot and take the chance he could hold half as many 1-run leads in the 9th as Papelbon has, then the problem is that those who were looking forward with 20/20 vision were ignored.