We Need Pitching Peter!!!

[Buckdodgers]

Look at this pitching stats
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Overall&sort=837
Orioles have the worst pitching ERA.How in the hell were supposed to win without pitching?
Just look how the Tigers improved over 4 seasons in their pitching.

[Brian McKenna]

same old story - without pitching you need to score 7-8-9 runs a game to be competitive

[Buckdodgers]

Oh Well...Does anybody know about the list of Free Agents for Next year?

[Buckdodgers]

Heres My Guess the Orioles should Go After next season.

Starters
Mark Redman
Jason Johnson
Kerry Wood

Relivers
Scott Schoenweis
Kerry Ligtenberg
Joe Borowski
Mike Timlin

Fielders-Batters
Edgardo Alfonzo 3B
Scott Hatteberg 1B
Ricky Ledee OF
Kenny Lofton OF


DUMP OR TRADE
Melvin Mora
Jeff Conine
Luis Matos
Chris Gómez
Daniel Cabrera
Bruce Chen
John Halama
Tim Byrdak
John Parrish
LaTroy Hawkins

Feel free to debate or disagree.

[joepepsi]

As bad as the pitching is, and it's bad, the offense is deceptively horrible too. How's that for a positive spin? The offense as configured centers around Roberts, Mora, Tejada, Ramon, and Gibbons. Everyone else sucks. They aren't even league average. That's OK for Markakis, who will get better with experience, or for Gomez, who is on the team for defense backup, but it's totally unexceptable for the rest of the hitters. As presently constituted it's a lineup that can only score runs every 3 innings. And they have to do it with home runs because nobody can get on base on this team or advance runners.


Trust me, the slide has begun. They may do well against KC this weekend, but each month they'll lose a few more than they win. By the end of the season it will be ugly. You can trust the front office won't do a thing either. At least nothing major. They'll swap relievers, or piece of crap outfielders, but a systematic dismantling is what's necessary, and they don't have the guts to do that, nor the talent to do it right. This is why you get 70 win seasons year after year.

[Brian McKenna]

As bad as the pitching is, and it's bad, the offense is deceptively horrible too. How's that for a positive spin? The offense as configured centers around Roberts, Mora, Tejada, Ramon, and Gibbons. Everyone else sucks. They aren't even league average. That's OK for Markakis, who will get better with experience, or for Gomez, who is on the team for defense backup, but it's totally unexceptable for the rest of the hitters. As presently constituted it's a lineup that can only score runs every 3 innings. And they have to do it with home runs because nobody can get on base on this team or advance runners.


Trust me, the slide has begun. They may do well against KC this weekend, but each month they'll lose a few more than they win. By the end of the season it will be ugly. You can trust the front office won't do a thing either. At least nothing major. They'll swap relievers, or piece of crap outfielders, but a systematic dismantling is what's necessary, and they don't have the guts to do that, nor the talent to do it right. This is why you get 70 win seasons year after year.

you're depressing - wish i could argue your points but i can't

[Iron Jaw]

How's the farm looking these days? At one time, that was the Oriole's pride and joy, and the counter to the post-Reserve Clause, free agency boom. For the first ten years of the post-RC, the O's won pennants, competed for pennants and were always pretty good. The O's at the time, couldn't really compete money-wise with the Yankees, etc., so they kept their farm well-stacked and up to date. Everytime the O's would lose a solid player like Bobby Grich, a homerun hitter like Reggie Jackson, or a 20-game winner like Wayne Garland to the market, they'd bring up some kid from Rochester to adequately fill the void. A team that doesn't have the market of a New York has to keep it's system intact in this age of baseball - prior to the end of the RC everyone relied on the system and trades. Now, it seems the big market clubs, who obviously have the edge in the free-agent & trade market, also have the edge on the farm.:ughh :hp

[bman]

the way i understand it is, the farm system started it's downward spiral during edward bennett williams' regime. when he owned the team, he was diagnosed with cancer. in the early eighties he started doing all that he could to win a world series before he passed on. in order to save money to keep the "band of brothers" together, and get other cogs that helped the cause, the scouting staff got left behind salary wise. little by little what was perceived to be the best judges of talent in an organization started seeking greener pastures. this makes sense because we'd be hard-pressed to name a home grown, bonafide impact player produced by the system in the nineties.

sprinkle in the eli jacobs era of turning off unnecessary lights to save money...a bit of glen davis on the side and you have what we've endured low these last eight or nine seasons.

apparently there's light at the end of the tunnel. i just hope it's not a protoscope.

b

[Buckdodgers]

We Had Pitching from our farm system.But peter keeps giving them away like
Mike Mussina for example.

[Iron Jaw]

We Had Pitching from our farm system.But peter keeps giving them away like
Mike Mussina for example.

The O's had Curt Schilling and Pete Harnisch - and Steve Finley when they were all youngsters. Guess who all three were traded for on January 10, 1991...............Glenn Davis. Man......the O's could have sure used those players in the years that followed. Schilling and Finley have had tremendous careers, while Harnisch wasn't bad. Davis played in only 185 games in three seasons for the O's as he was oft-injured. A guy who was acquired for power - averaged eight homeruns per season - but he made some cash.

[Buckdodgers]

The O's had Curt Schilling and Pete Harnisch - and Steve Finley when they were all youngsters. Guess who all three were traded for on January 10, 1991...............Glenn Davis. Man......the O's could have sure used those players in the years that followed. Schilling and Finley have had tremendous careers, while Harnisch wasn't bad. Davis played in only 185 games in three seasons for the O's as he was oft-injured. A guy who was acquired for power - averaged eight homeruns per season - but he made some cash.
But Peter Angelos had nothing to do with those trades.

[Iron Jaw]

But Peter Angelos had nothing to do with those trades.

Very true - that was done by his predecessors. But Peter did fire the 1998 Manager of the Year (Davey Johnson) after winning their first division title since 1983. The team won 98 games that season. Yeah, they lost in the playoffs (but ANY team can lose a short series and any team can get hot in a short series) when they left too many runners on base every game against Cleveland in the ALCS. I remember that finale too well - Baltimore with 10 hits - the Indians with three hits. The Indians win 1-0 in 11 innings. Of course, Mr. Benitez gave up that HR to Tony Fernandez. The O's had runners in scoring position throughout, but as I recall, didn't sacrifice at all.

Still - they did win 98 that season. And since they fired Johnson the best record has been four games UNDER .500 under Ray Miller in 1998. :ughh

[joepepsi]

That was in 1997, Iron Jaw, but otherwise your history is accurate. Althoug technically I think Davey resigned the day he won AL manager of the year after Angelos refused to negotiate an extension. Later, he would extend Mike Hargrove several times, despite Grover's continually horrible teams. The '96 team made a surge in the last half of the season also reaching the playoffs as the Wild Card team.

The '97 team is one of the few in history to lead their division/league from Opening Day to the final game. They are the only one not to win the World Series, I believe. But the team was slipping in the latter months of the '97 season and were nearly caught by the Yankees. It was an old team that needed re-working but never got it.

Remember, it wasn't just Davey that left after the season, Pat Gillick was given the boot by Angelos. Gillick is as brilliant a GM as any in the game. I'm sure he would have re-tooled the team and come back for more in 1998. While the O's are a mid market team today, it's important to remember in 1997 they had one of the top 2 or 3 payrolls in the majors. Without Gillick at the helm they continued to spend money, but now on washed up, ill advised moves, often engineered by Angelos or his sons who seemed to be playing rotisserie baseball with real players and a real team.

The Orioles' mismanagement in the late '90s deserves much of the blame (or credit depending on how you look at it) for the Yankees' rise and success. Many 1998 preseason publications still picked the Orioles to win the AL East. But their fall to mediocrity eliminated the stiffest competition for the Yankees. Probably no one could have prevented the Yankees from winning it all in 1998--they won 114 games--but by 99 and 2000 the Red Sox and Blue Jays were stronger. A strong Oriole team would have been a factor. Remember, the Yankees only won 87 games in 2000, but still won the division.

[edsachs1]

I think the pitching is in bad shape now. But, I would not panic. I think that it is going to get better soon, especially with Leo Mazzone. Once Daniel Cabrera gets some control he is going to be dominate (I've heard comparisions to Randy Johnson). Erik Bedard is going to be a solid two or three pitcher. The farm system has some amazing pitching. I would not be surprised if all five starters will be home grown in the next couple years. Here are some of the people in our minors:

Hayden Penn (AAA)- 2-2 1.48 ERA 29 K's (should be called up any day now)
Adam Loewen (AA)- 3-2 3.09 ERA 50 K's (contract says he has to be up in majors by next season)
J.J. Johnson (AA)- 4-1 3.74 ERA 42 K's
Garret Olsen (A+)- 3-2 3.53 ERA 42 K's
Radhames Liz (A+)- 4-0 1.18 ERA 56 K's (similar to Cabrera)
Brandon Erbe (A-)- 2-2 2.18 ERA 42 K's (local high school kid, 18 years old and can throw 97 MPH)

[Buckdodgers]

But Nothing can compare to the pitching they used to have.
Jim Palmer
Dave McNally
Mike Cuellar
Pat Dobson
Jim Hardin
Doyle Alexander

[platinum epidemic]

Look at this pitching stats
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Overall&sort=837
Orioles have the worst pitching ERA.How in the hell were supposed to win without pitching?
Just look how the Tigers improved over 4 seasons in their pitching.
Yes, I know. All the Oriole fans are probably going::grouchy about him. His pitching is a nightmare.

[Iron Jaw]

I'm currently in the last week of a 6-month temporary assignment to Border Patrol Headquarters in Washington D.C. (back to Arizona next week - finally - but I read the temp in Yuma as 104 today:o ).

Anyway, last evening I attented the first game of the Oriole-National, Interleague series (which I believe should be played as an exhibition - don't believe in Interleague games counting in each individual league standings - but that's another matter). Benson looked terrific, tossing a CG and a five hitter to win 5-1. He had the Nat hitters stymied throughout the game. Oh, he finally gave up a meaningless HR to Soriano in the bottom of the 8th. But I was glad to see him get the CG and pitch well doing it. Perhaps, with the shabby bullpen, guys like Benson should throw quite a few more CGs.

The Orioles scored five runs - but they had runners on base almost every inning and the bases loaded with no outs once. They should have scored about 10-12. Whatever happened to sacrifice flys, hit and run or squeeze bunts. The O's were in a situation to do that on a few occasions last evening. When Gibbons came up, bases loaded, no score, I wondered why the big guy didn't drop a bunt. The guy next to me said, "He's a power hitter - he doesn't bunt." Why not - in a scoreless game when a team needs the run? He wound up fanning, as did the next two batters. Later in the game Benson came up with the bases loaded and two outs (NL Park - Benson is batting). He was an easy out - though he did drive in a run later with a little tap towards first.

[Chelle]

Hayden Penn (AAA)- 2-2 1.48 ERA 29 K's (should be called up any day now)
Adam Loewen (AA)- 3-2 3.09 ERA 50 K's (contract says he has to be up in majors by next season)
J.J. Johnson (AA)- 4-1 3.74 ERA 42 K's
Garret Olsen (A+)- 3-2 3.53 ERA 42 K's
Radhames Liz (A+)- 4-0 1.18 ERA 56 K's (similar to Cabrera)
Brandon Erbe (A-)- 2-2 2.18 ERA 42 K's (local high school kid, 18 years old and can throw 97 MPH)


Although I was against calling Penn up so early, I'm excited to see what he can do know that he's ready to start. I'm excited to see Loewen, he's era in AA has been good, and the few people I've known who have seen him says he looks good. I'm not sure about Liz, he looks good but, who doesn't in single A. But, his era is good and it's always fun to have those hard throwing kids. Everyone is really excited about this Erbe kid. I know nothing about him, but a couple fans on the O's Message Board are really excited about him.

I think for pitching we've got a good farm system, but we're famous for trading good young prospects away for hitting. Peter doesn't trust in pitching....the game is about pitching...ARGH! (sorry...years of frustration).

As for our hitting and infield, everyone knows what needs to be done. We need to get a first baseman who can hit. Period. Or, a first baseman who is more then a fun clubhouse guy. Ok, end rant :)

[Oriolesfan1810]

You see, Angelos is so stubborn when it comes to pitching because he thinks they have a terrible injury record.

PLAYERS GET INJURED AND YOU KNOW THEY WILL HAVE AN INJURY HERE OR THERE.

He prefers to spend on Offense not pitching.

Benson has been a quiet starter on our team, he's doing pretty good at 6-4. But its Rodrigo Lopez who really needs to get to work. WHY CAN'T HE PITCH LIKE HE DID IN THE WORLD BASEBALL CLASSIC!?

Mazzone knew that he was coming to a team with terrible pitching.

[Chelle]

I was stunned by the R-LO from last night. Now if only Chen can finally get his due (or his first win). Lopez has his game on!

What about Halama starting again on Sunday? One good outing gets you another start? Sam needs to decide who our starting pitchers are, and who our relievers are and stick with it. He's sticking Loewen in the pen is a waste of a developing starter, either send him back down to AAA to develop into a major league starter or let him start up here, but we don't need more bull pen guys.

[Oriolesfan1810]

I was stunned by the R-LO from last night. Now if only Chen can finally get his due (or his first win). Lopez has his game on!

What about Halama starting again on Sunday? One good outing gets you another start? Sam needs to decide who our starting pitchers are, and who our relievers are and stick with it. He's sticking Loewen in the pen is a waste of a developing starter, either send him back down to AAA to develop into a major league starter or let him start up here, but we don't need more bull pen guys.

Halama's solid and a good pitcher. Let the guy play.

As for Loewen, what a waste.

Penn is going to be good pitcher. He's just a kid and he will develop fast.

I'm waiting on that Radhames Liz guy... Low 100s on his fastball. Sheesh, he's even hurting the catcher's hands.

[Chelle]

You like Halama? He throws so slow anytime it's over the plate I know it's going to be a homerun....it's like soft pitch softball. I'd rather see Birkins in there while we wait for D-Cab.

Loewen is going to be great, once he gets the feel for the bigs and a little more comfortable, did you see how many Ks he threw the other night?

I'm psyched about Penn.

[JohnGelnarFan]

I like Halama too. When pitchers like him have their location,they'll drive hitters crazy. Mixing pitches and keeping their 88 mile an hour fastball away from the heart of the plate can be just as effective as a 95 mile an hour fastball. Of course he can't compensate as well as a fastballer if his location isn't sharp. Halama's had some good years in the majors and,as a veteran, should know how to pitch within himself.
By the way Chelle,I agree about Matos. I want him to do well but I don't think he'll ever be a good hitter. He tries hard and had that one good year but he seems to have been found out by scouting reports. Too bad because he's such a good defensive player.





You like Halama? He throws so slow anytime it's over the plate I know it's going to be a homerun....it's like soft pitch softball. I'd rather see Birkins in there while we wait for D-Cab.

Loewen is going to be great, once he gets the feel for the bigs and a little more comfortable, did you see how many Ks he threw the other night?

I'm psyched about Penn.

[Chelle]

You are the second person I've seen call Matos a good defensive player, maybe I jsut don't see it. I actually saw someone on the Orioles fan page claim he should start over Patterson. Maybe I'm just anti-Matos and should give the guy a chance.

[Oriolesfan1810]

Loewen has to be on the team in 2007 or he's on waivers.

[Chelle]

Yeah, but I think they'll send him down to Ottawa at some point during this year when Penn comes back (unless someone else gets hurt). He's just not getting enough work up in this league right now.

[Oriolesfan1810]

Penn's a very good pitcher, He's got style and class and I bet all the girls love him. He kinda reminds me of Paul Walker a little bit. LOL.

Loewen.. He needs to work on his Mechanics and control. I bet Mazzone is going to work with him FEVERISHLY to get him polished.

Now about Bruce Chen, He had his renaissance and now... he ain't having one anymore. Remove him from the rotation before there's even more disaster.

[Chelle]

Loewen I think was a bit nervous (is first outting) and his second outing he had 6Ks. Yes it took him a bit of time to get warmed up (remember he's used to being a starter not coming from the pen)....but once he got into his grove he was ok. The kids a rookie...there are going to be a few rookie mistakes, we brought him up a bit to early because we had to. (D-Cab injury, Penn injury, Chen stinks, R-Lo is shaky a best and Sammy doesn't trust Birkins or Halama fully to start).

Sammy either has to give him more work at this level or send him back down to get his starts.