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jalbright
05-29-2006, 06:23 PM
I wonder if somebody has a list of the league leaders in the black ink/gray ink categories. I'd love to see the measure give some weight to how the player placed by multiplying the score by the following numbers:

1st---1.15
2nd---1.09
3rd---1.06
4th---1.03
5th---1.00
6th---0.97
7th---0.94
8th---0.91
9th---0.88
10th--0.85

The increments I'm proposing aren't dramatic (a 10th place finish in a 4 point category is barely behind a first in a 3 point category), and there's a small bonus for finishing first in a category. I have the feeling this would be an improvement over the more static black ink and gray ink, but I'd like to see how it would work in practice. Any takers for an assist here?

Jim Albright

Sultan_1895-1948
05-30-2006, 01:19 AM
I'll do a Babe/Cobb comparison if I know what the categories/point scales are.

What about a weight based on dominance also. Leading your league in HR by 5 is nice, but what if you lead by 20. Shouldn't that matter more?

SABR Matt
05-30-2006, 01:35 AM
if you blow away the field, it should count more IMHO...the question is...where do you draw that line? :D

Tango Tiger
05-30-2006, 08:04 AM
I did something like this for fun:

http://www.tangotiger.net/sosa500.html

jalbright
05-30-2006, 09:36 AM
What I have in mind is to largely keep the stat as it is and tweak it, that weighting by how much you led (or were ahead of a certain position) is a different stat altogether. As the info I will quote from baseball-reference.com on how to calculate the inks indicates, the stat still has some flaws, but I wonder if the kind of weighting I'm suggesting wouldn't gray ink better by giving more credit to higher finishers and less to lower ones. I think when we get as complex as weighting calculations, we're probably better off going with the uber-stats (e.g. linear weights, win shares, Matt's PCA)

Black-Ink Test

Named so because league leading numbers are traditionally represented with Boldface type. The definition for the test that I'm using here was written up in Bill James's The Politics of Glory, p. 65-67. The essential point is to measure how often a player led the league in a variety of "important" stats. This method penalizes more recent players as they have 14-16 teams per league, while the older players had just 8. To get a point you must lead the league in that category.

Batting Statistics
Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
One Point for games, at bats or triples
Pitching Statistics
Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts
Note that Hall of Famers have a wide variety of values for the Black Ink Test, and the method is unforgiving of positional differences, but it is a neat little metric.

Gray-Ink Test

Essentially the same as the Black-Ink above, but it counts appearances in the top ten of the league.

Jim Albright

Tango Tiger
05-30-2006, 02:12 PM
I wonder if somebody has a list of the league leaders in the black ink/gray ink categories. I'd love to see the measure give some weight to how the player placed by multiplying the score by the following numbers:

1st---1.15
2nd---1.09
3rd---1.06
4th---1.03
5th---1.00
6th---0.97
7th---0.94
8th---0.91
9th---0.88
10th--0.85

The increments I'm proposing aren't dramatic (a 10th place finish in a 4 point category is barely behind a first in a 3 point category), and there's a small bonus for finishing first in a category. I have the feeling this would be an improvement over the more static black ink and gray ink, but I'd like to see how it would work in practice. Any takers for an assist here?

Jim Albright

I'm not sure your real point here. Say you have someone with 10 1st place finishes, and another guywith 10 10th place finishes. And it's a 4-pt category.

The basic form gives them both 40 points. Your proposal here turns them into 46 and 34 points, which is a rather extreme case (and the league leader is represented by the black-ink test). For a toy like the gray-ink test, it's counterproductive to try to tweak it as you are proposing. The point of the gray-ink is simplicity, not precision.

538280
05-30-2006, 02:34 PM
I created a system like this a while back (can't seem to find it), and it not only gave weighting to what place you finished in, but also weighted different categories the way I felt was appropriate. Sultan actually asked me to do it.

jalbright
05-30-2006, 02:55 PM
In large part, this idea is an outgrowth of my first effort at rating players in Japan. We didn't yet have short form win shares, but I had seen the inks tests. I had the info I needed for the top five guys, but I wanted to weight it a bit, so what I did there was 4 pts for 1st in a 4 point category, 3 for second, 2 for first, and 1 for fourth; 3 for 1st in a three point category, 2 for second, and so on. The system, while not perfect, was most helpful in getting ratings which generally squared with expert opinions. I was just wondering if such a weighting would help in the majors.

Jim Albright

Sultan_1895-1948
05-30-2006, 09:12 PM
I created a system like this a while back (can't seem to find it), and it not only gave weighting to what place you finished in, but also weighted different categories the way I felt was appropriate. Sultan actually asked me to do it.

Yeah, here ya go Chris. It was over on the Multi-Subject Poll thread.

I never really said I was going to do it, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Right off the top of my head....

BA (10 point scale)
1st in league-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

OBP (10 point scale)
1st-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

SLG (10 point scale)
1st-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

OPS+ (15 point scale)
1st-20 points
2nd-15
3rd-10
4th-9
5th-8
....and so on

Home runs (10 point scale)
1st-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

RBI (5 point scale)
1st-5 points
2nd-4
3rd-3
.....and so on down to 5th with one point. No more points past 5th. Same applies for all 5 point scale categories.

Runs Scored (5 point scale)
1st-5
2nd-4
3rd-3
....and so on

Hits (5 point scale)
1st-5
2nd-4
3rd-3
....and so on

The following are also done on 5 point scales: Doubles, Stolen bases, and walks.

Plus two categories (triples and plate appearances) are done on three point scales, where you get 3 points for leading league, 2 for 2nd place, and 1 for third. No points past third.

Also add one point to the players' total for each season they played in every one of their team's games.

How does it sound, Bill and others?

Ok Chris, here's some data for ya :D

I did not award any points for PA or playing in all team games; seems pointless to me, but feel free to add those totals if you must.

Also, could you come up with a pitching version so I could add it to Babe's early years. It won't be much, basically a few points here and there for '16 and '17. Maybe ERA+, H/9, whip, CG, whatever you feel is best.

Each of their top 10 seasons are in red just for visual separation purposes.

Chris' Method

Babe’s Career Ink

1918 – 62
1919 – 73
1920 – 78
1921 – 83
1922 – 51
1923 – 85
1924 – 84
1925 – 9
1926 – 80
1927 – 70
1928 – 68
1929 – 56
1930 – 75
1931 – 80
1932 – 58
1933 – 39
1934 – 23

Total: 1074 (before pitching ink)

Top Ten: 776

Cobb’s Career Ink

1906 – 12
1907 – 79
1908 – 74
1909 – 92
1910 – 85
1911 – 71
1912 – 72
1913 – 58
1914 – 56
1915 – 79
1916 – 60
1917 – 89
1918 – 67
1919 – 58
1920 – 6
1921 – 41
1922 – 40
1923 – 14
1924 – 12
1925 – 44
1926 - 0
1927 – 8

Total: 1117

Top Ten: 766

lol, were these two close or what.