Bronson Arroyo!!

[DODGER DEB]

I watched the METS/Cincinnati game last night. BRONSON ARROYO was lights out!

WHO was the SOX genius who peddled him to Cincy this spring? THAT idiot should be FIRED!

c.

[VTSoxFan]

I read a line recently, in the book Non Campus Mentis, which is very wise in its Yogi-Berra-like convolutedness:

"Hindsight is caused by a lack of foresight."

How so many of us could see that Clement would be shaky, that Wells would be chancy at best, and Theo did not see this (or did see it and chose to ignore it)... Our rotation is in tatters and the bullpen is making my hair go gray (last night notwithstanding). *sigh*

We'll never get Arroyo back. The Reds were starving for a pitcher like him and will never let him go. A trade would mean giving up Lester and/or Hansen and/or Pauley, and trading away the future is just not gonna happen.

I know all the rationale -- Wily Mo will take over in right field when Trot goes off as a free-agent (an event I dread)... Wily Mo can hit for power... Arroyo is not "young" for a pitcher... but all the rationalizing in the world doesn't make me believe that the trade was anything but a mistake. Never, never, never trade away good healthy pitching, especially a starter especially one who can go deep into games and is unfazed by the intensity of East Coast baseball.

[Boston Boxer]

he was never lights out for us. I think it was a tough decision for Theo to trade him. They are good friends and Arroyo did not want to go. I will trust Theo knows a little more about baseball than us fans. I think the good start by Arroyo has made everyone forget that he was an average pitcher for the Sox.

[RBi]

The sad thing about this story is he signed with the Red Sox at a discount because he wanted to stay with the team, and then doing so created some trade value and the organization used that to their advantage in trading a decent pitcher who is a cheap "gap filler".

That to me is a sign of how the game has turned into a business...

[VTSoxFan]

he was never lights out for us. I think it was a tough decision for Theo to trade him. They are good friends and Arroyo did not want to go. I will trust Theo knows a little more about baseball than us fans. I think the good start by Arroyo has made everyone forget that he was an average pitcher for the Sox.

I know, he's having a stellar season this year, but he was more than adequate for us last season. He was certainly better than Wells, Clement, and Dinardo have been, better than Pauley (except that one brilliant outing in NY)... We wouldn't have to be calling up AA pitchers or claiming chancy guys off waivers for "emergency" starts quite so often if we had Arroyo on our staff.

What CubsHub said is spot-on, too.

[Mattingly]

This time, people can't fault the opponent, as the Mets are a very strong team this season. CG, 2 runs isn't anything to play with.

Looking back, I think that the Reds should toss in another player or two, just to ease the unfairness of the deal.

[Captain Cold Nose]

This time, people can't fault the opponent, as the Mets are a very strong team this season. CG, 2 runs isn't anything to play with.

Looking back, I think that the Reds should toss in another player or two, just to ease the unfairness of the deal.
You have got to be kidding me.

I have to agree with Boston Boxer. Without the change of scenery, who's to say Arroyo would be doing so hot still pitching in a league where all he was was adequate. As someone who has watched Pena since his Single A days, trading a solid pitcher is what it takes to acquire a blossoning outfielder with strong potential. At the time, it looked like there was an abundance of starters, I think there mentions of at least seven who would qualify before the trade, outfield was a need, and who's to say Arroyo will continue to pitche this well. Considering Cincinnati's second-half history the last few years, I most certainly am not expecting him to continue this trend.

[RedSoxVT92]

No one is really to blame. I mean who would have known he would turn into an absoulte ace with an 2.47 era (and a good hitter too). At the time of the trade he was our 7th starter and really didnt have a place in Boston. We got in return a future 30, 40 home run type of guy in Willy Mo. Maybe the NL has helped him with the absense of the DH. It is sad though because he wanted to stay in Boston but I bet he likes being the #1 starter in Cinci as well. If we could change time we would but we cant and we shouldnt dwell on this. We have to work with what we got and try to trade for someone else. And who knows maybe in a couple years everyone would have forgotten about the trade and Willy Mo will turn into a star. Time will tell.

[FlashGordon]

There's an article in today's Hartford Courant that is appropriate for this thread: Sox Dealt An Ace In Arroyo (http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-arroyo0620.artjun20,0,2215830.story?coll=hc-headlines-baseball).

I agree that Arroyo's performance is something of a surprise, but what has been overlooked so far in those quick to defend the trade is that Arroyo was better than adequate in one of the two toughest baseball markets in the the league. Egan quotes Arroyo:
"I like pitching in this city (NYC)," he said. "That was the No.1 reason I was so bummed out to leave the Red Sox. I loved pitching in this kind of hostile environment."Red Sox fans have been spoiled by the best years of Pedro Martinez and have really lost perspective regarding the pitching talent out there. How many big names have melted down playing in the northeast corridor? Arroyo certainly held his own in the Fens and would be doing so still in a Boston uniform if not for a purely calculated move that proved to be a miscalculation.

BTW Annie, nice choice for the quote. I'll repeat it again and again for anyone not inclined to look back at the discussion in March when Arroyo was traded. Not everyone bought into the "Arroyo is the low man on totem pole" argument, nor the illusion that David Wells (much less he, Schilling and Clement) would be good for another season. If the Sox pitching folds down the stretch (remember, Beckett still has yet to pitch more than 178 innings in a season) we can all look back at that pre-season move as the one that cost the Sox the season. Our only saving grace is that the Yankees are in worse shape than the Sox are.

On a separate note: does anyone know if Pedro is on track to pitch during the interleague matchup in Boston?

[Mattingly]

You have got to be kidding me.

I have to agree with Boston Boxer. Without the change of scenery, who's to say Arroyo would be doing so hot still pitching in a league where all he was was adequate. As someone who has watched Pena since his Single A days, trading a solid pitcher is what it takes to acquire a blossoning outfielder with strong potential. At the time, it looked like there was an abundance of starters, I think there mentions of at least seven who would qualify before the trade, outfield was a need, and who's to say Arroyo will continue to pitche this well. Considering Cincinnati's second-half history the last few years, I most certainly am not expecting him to continue this trend.
I'll agree with you that Pena is more useful than I'd presumed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6522

He's got a .852 OPS, so he's not exactly a pushover. Still, even if he's not facing a DH every day, that was still the Mets, who have one of the top Win %s so far. I don't know if the teams he's facing with your Reds is easier than what the BoSox are facing now, but doing a 2-run CG against the Mets, to me, says he's the real deal.

It could be the change in scenery, just as easily as it could be the "Let me prove them wrong", which I think is what Boomer was running on when he'd wanted to rejoin the Yanks, but was rebuffed by Cashman and Torre as he'd joined the Sox.

As to 7 starters, that's nice, but you may wish to count Boomer as 1/2, and Clement was getting injured a bit, Beckett's never pitched 180 innings, so the term "quality over quantity", to me at least, makes the sheer numbers less voluminous.

Perhaps they could've gone to the farm once again, though they've traded away quite a few. From what I've seen of Arroyo in 2005, he seemed like a solid #4-5 pitcher, so I wouldn't really have traded him. If anything, asking if they'd accept other choices may have been better. I'm not sure that the Reds would've been interested in Delcarmen and/or Riske or someone of that level, but straight-up, that seems like a touch pill to swallow.

If not for Tim Wakefield, I've have said that the Loretta-Mirabelli trade was a steal. Perhaps if Theo could've pulled off another trade to get WM Pena (who, like Lowell, came from the Yankee farm, no less), as he did when getting Schilling, he could've had his picture in the Post Office as one of America's 10 Most Wanted bank robbers. :D

[SoxSon]

Got to hand it to Arroyo...he's had a stellar season so far. Truthfully, I'm glad Bronson's playing for the Reds only because I felt (and feel) that Boston management screwed him over, and he deserved better.

Regardless of one's view of the trade itself, Boston didn't treat Arroyo well at the end. That's the shame of it for me.

[Boston Boxer]

Got to hand it to Arroyo...he's had a stellar season so far. Truthfully, I'm glad Bronson's playing for the Reds only because I felt (and feel) that Boston management screwed him over, and he deserved better.

Regardless of one's view of the trade itself, Boston didn't treat Arroyo well at the end. That's the shame of it for me.

can't let personnal reasons rule when trying to do a job. Like i said, i must of been hard for Theo to trade his friend. Not only was he a friend, but he knew Arroyo screwed himself when he took that deal from the Sox

[SoxSon]

can't let personnal reasons rule when trying to do a job. Like i said, i must of been hard for Theo to trade his friend. Not only was he a friend, but he knew Arroyo screwed himself when he took that deal from the Sox

Personal feelings do have a place in business.
When you screw people over, sooner or later you get screwed over yourself.

[Mattingly]

can't let personnal reasons rule when trying to do a job. Like i said, i must of been hard for Theo to trade his friend. Not only was he a friend, but he knew Arroyo screwed himself when he took that deal from the Sox
That part I wasn't familiar with. How were Theo and Bronson "friends"? Were they more friendly to one another than Theo was to other players?

By friends, they went out on double dates with each other and their wives (presuming Arroyo's married; if not, then his girl)?

[FlashGordon]

can't let personnal reasons rule when trying to do a job. Like i said, i must of been hard for Theo to trade his friend. Not only was he a friend, but he knew Arroyo screwed himself when he took that deal from the SoxI can't help but point out the irony of this statement. On the one hand you insist that one can't let personal matters get in the way of one's job, but on the other you refer to their friendship. You can't have it both ways. Either you are a friend or you are a boss, and clearly Theo was more boss than friend. I think Theo should NEVER use the word friend when dealing with guys he considers to be nothing more than employees. To do so is disingenuous. This is especially true if Theo "knew Arroyo screwed himself when he took that deal..." One could just as easily argue that Theo used his "friendship" with Arroyo to secure a better deal for the Sox with the knowledge that he would likely trade him soon.

I suppose that is what has rubbed me the wrong way in this transaction. On the one hand there was a play to team loyalty and friendship which generated good will on Arroyo's part. What Theo did in response was nothing short of stabbing him in the back by shipping him off to a cellar-dwelling team in return for a backup outfielder. Admittedly Pena shows promise, but that move was at best unnecessary at that moment (it's not like they needed a starter at the time), at worst it was a miscalculation of the team's real need: a solid starting rotation. I think Theo was hedging that Bronson would have a down year and lost. So much for the "Spring Training is not an indicator" philosophy.

[VTSoxFan]

I remember when Todd Walker was released after repeatedly saying he wanted very much to stay with the Sox, Theo was interviewed about the move. Theo said that he tried never to let himself get too friendly with the players, because friendships would make it too hard for him to do his job. I don't know whether Theo became chummy with Arroyo (though they did both perform at the "Hot Stove, Cool Music" charity music thingie), but if he did, that makes his action even harder to swallow.

I'm pretty sure Arroyo signed the discounted extension while Theo was off finding himself or whatever the heck it was he was doing all winter. He ostensibly wasn't involved in the club during the interregnum, but for all I know he might have been behind the curtain pulling the strings on the deal. If he did help engineer the deal with an eye toward boosting Arroyo's trade value while at the same time telling Arroyo that he would not be traded... that's reprehensible.

[TonyK]

All I can figure out is the Red Sox expect Nixon to move on and do not feel there are decent replacements available in the free agent market after the season. Maybe that is why they pulled the trigger to get a RFer rather than wait until after the season?

Meanwhile I repeat the expression I memorized so often in my youth...the Sox can never have too much...

I cannot forget Clement's last game of 2005 when he gave up 8 runs in 3 1/3 innings. He had to be a question mark in March. Wells had an operation and, at his age and size, was a very big question mark. Schilling for all we knew could have been a .500 pitcher for the remainder of his career back in March. That leaves the newcomer Beckett who has never pitched more than 178 innings, Wakefield who is getting up there in years, and to me is a #5 pitcher, and Arroyo.

Arroyo won 14 games last year. He pitched 205 innings in his second season as a starter at age 28. He had plenty of postseason experience and liked to face the Yankees. He was the only starter we had that was both healthy and young (I'm considering Beckett questionable because of his late 2005 problems). And above all, Arroyo had just been given a pay raise.

Who on the Red Sox reached the conclusion that Arroyo would never be higher than a #5 starter or middle relief man? Was it the pitching coach, the GM, Bill James, or the front office personnel? He had a terrible spring training, but I wonder if it was because he was told he would be taken out of the rotation?

It will be interesting in two years to see who the Sox starters are, and how well Arroyo and Pena are doing.

[VTSoxFan]

I believe that Arroyo led the team in quality starts last season, as well.

Spring Training is not an indicator. Remember all the lousy spring Pedro had, and then went on to rack up 20+ wins? How about Foulke's spring of '04 that had us all chewing our nails? If part of the reasoning that went into the trade was Arroyo's shaky spring training record, then someone in the front office has rocks in his head.

Another thing I remember from the time of the trade: Theo said something about how "when we told him that we weren't looking to trade him, we meant that there was nothing in the works that week..."

[DODGER DEB]

Another thing I remember from the time of the trade: Theo said something about how "when we told him that we weren't looking to trade him, we meant that there was nothing in the works that week..."

Boy, with a "friend" like Theo, Bronson doesn't need an enemy!

c.

[TonyK]

I believe that Arroyo led the team in quality starts last season, as well.

Spring Training is not an indicator. Remember all the lousy spring Pedro had, and then went on to rack up 20+ wins? How about Foulke's spring of '04 that had us all chewing our nails? If part of the reasoning that went into the trade was Arroyo's shaky spring training record, then someone in the front office has rocks in his head.

Another thing I remember from the time of the trade: Theo said something about how "when we told him that we weren't looking to trade him, we meant that there was nothing in the works that week..."

I'm searching for reasons why the Sox would first sign Arroyo to a decent brand new contract, and then deal him away for an untested rookie.

It sounds to me like Theo will have a good career in politics after he leaves baseball. "Well, we didn't mean this week" is just double-speak. He made a mistake giving that gem to reporters. Maybe it shows a lack of maturity?

[redlegsfan21]

I just want to do one thing,
:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

Thank you Boston for your time and your pitching.

[VTSoxFan]

Here's an article from today's Globe:

Bronson Burner: Arroyo Lighting Up the Reds (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/23/bronson_burner_arroyo_lighting_up_the_reds/?page=full)

[DODGER DEB]

Here's an article from today's Globe:

Bronson Burner: Arroyo Lighting Up the Reds (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/23/bronson_burner_arroyo_lighting_up_the_reds/?page=full)

Great article, Annie. Thanks for sharing it.

Makes you wonder what is really going on in that SOX front office?

c.

[FlashGordon]

I think everyone knows how I feel about the decision to trade Arroyo, particularly the timing of the deal. That aside for a moment, there is some reason to be optimistic that Jon Lester's 2-0 record is an indication that the search for a steady 5th might be over. Of course that doesn't address the Clement problems, but we can hope that some of the sting associated with Bronson's departure is starting to fade.

[Redlightning]

You know, sometimes pitchers do better in certain places. Clement's career ERA was nearing 5.00 when he went to the Cubs, where he gave them 3 solid seasons. Let's not forget, Clement was an All-Star last year. His (and Wells') injuries have been huge (and in both cases, they affected their performances), and if they had never been injured, Arroyo's success would not seem such as huge. Also, consider this: Arroyo was in his late 20's. For him, we got an outfielder that filled in great for Coco when he was out, and he's still around 23 and has 15 good years left in him. I'd say both sides got a good deal, but the Reds probobly got the better one.

[SoxSon]

You know, sometimes pitchers do better in certain places. Clement's career ERA was nearing 5.00 when he went to the Cubs, where he gave them 3 solid seasons. Let's not forget, Clement was an All-Star last year. His (and Wells') injuries have been huge (and in both cases, they affected their performances), and if they had never been injured, Arroyo's success would not seem such as huge. Also, consider this: Arroyo was in his late 20's. For him, we got an outfielder that filled in great for Coco when he was out, and he's still around 23 and has 15 good years left in him. I'd say both sides got a good deal, but the Reds probobly got the better one.

Welcome to BBF, redlightning! :D

At the time of the trade, I wasn't necessarily against it as a business transaction. I'm still not necessarily against it as a "Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena" deal. We have yet to see what Pena really is capable of, and it's true: Arroyo, while good at eating up innings, wasn't going to become an ace in Boston.
What I was against was the way we dealt him. It was underhanded, and left the whole situation seeming wrong, at least to me.

[FlashGordon]

I see that Bronson Arroyo has managed something that no Boston starter has; he was named a 2006 All-Star. That said, I think Beckett and Schilling were both dissed, especially Curt. I'm happy for Papelbon and maybe next year he'll be named as a starter.

[redlegsfan21]

Again, I must say thank you Boston. An all-star pitcher for a minor league outfielder. And I'm bringing this name back to annoy Red Sox fans. GOOD JOB YANKEE JRS. :laugh

[FlashGordon]

Again, I must say thank you Boston. An all-star pitcher for a minor league outfielder. And I'm bringing this name back to annoy Red Sox fans. GOOD JOB YANKEE JRS. :laughThere's no need to be a punk about this. Bronson is currently one of the top 3 pitchers in the NL, but as John Donovan at SI.com has shown, the AL has absolutely owned the NL (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/06/30/al.nl/index.html) this season, largely because of the quality of its pitching. Bronson, for all his upside, was never going to crack the top 3 in Boston's rotation. As much as I credit Bronson for being a good, perhaps very good pitcher, pitching in the senior circuit has made him look outstanding.

Be sure to stock up on 40's; you'll need 'em as the AL pounds the NL in the All-Star game...again.

[Mattingly]

Again, I must say thank you Boston. An all-star pitcher for a minor league outfielder. And I'm bringing this name back to annoy Red Sox fans. GOOD JOB YANKEE JRS. :laugh
Man, talk about drivel and baiting in a team forum.

Here's a nice place for you to bookmark and enjoy, moreso than here:

http://www.forums.mlb.com/ml-mlb

[redlegsfan21]

I just like annoying Boston Red Sox fans. I really don't know why. Just let me say this, I'm not a Yankee fan either, even if I act like one.

[SoxSon]

I just like annoying Boston Red Sox fans. I really don't know why. Just let me say this, I'm not a Yankee fan either, even if I act like one.

They've beaten me to it, nascarfn5, but don't do that kind of stuff on BBF. Regardless of whom you like to annoy, it doesn't belong here.

Bronson is a great guy who is having a fine season with the Reds. Most of us are happy for him. Pena is a long way off from reaching his potential. That pretty much is the end of the story.

[Mattingly]

I just like annoying Boston Red Sox fans. I really don't know why. Just let me say this, I'm not a Yankee fan either, even if I act like one.
Let me explain this to you, at the expense of possibly overstepping my bounds here, as there are three very capable Mods here on the Red Sox forum: VTSoxFan; FlashGordon; SoxSon.

We here don't bother people about their team, their players or their front office on their own forum. We toy and banter on the Bitter Rivalry thread, making unveiled cheesy jokes and remarks about opposing teams and their players, but never in the team forums.

If you don't like the Red Sox, please don't harass their fans in their forum. If you don't like Barry Bonds, please don't post negativity in the San Francisco forum.

As to acting like a Yankee fan, the various ones I know here don't come into this forum talking trash like this, nor do the Red Sox fans do that in the Yankee forum. It's called mutual respect.

I've said my piece, so please have respect for this and every other portion of BBF, presusming you'd like a lengthy stay here (wink wink). :)

[SoxSon]

Bronson got roughed up bigtime by Atlanta today. Not sure what it means for his season, but here's his line for the game:

B. Arroyo (L, 9-6)
Innings 4.1
Hits 10
Runs 6
ER 6
BB 3
K 3
HR 2

Notable only because it is his worst outing of the year by far.

[Jager]

Bronson got roughed up bigtime by Atlanta today. Not sure what it means for his season, but here's his line for the game:

B. Arroyo (L, 9-6)
Innings 4.1
Hits 10
Runs 6
ER 6
BB 3
K 3
HR 2

Notable only because it is his worst outing of the year by far.

I thought that at the beginning of the year when this trade happened. Everything will even out. Bronson will have a lower ERA than with the Sox, but he's just not an ace. I really like this trade for the future good of the team. It was never a trade for right now, and yet Pena still did quite well while he was healthy. Should be interesting to see how the Sox handle the outfield during the offseason with Trot playing so good this year, and Pena healthy.

[Evangelion]

I expected Arroyo to come back to earth at some part. Arroyo pitching more like the Arroyo of Boston once again. I don't expect him to be as dominating as he was during the begin of the season during the second half.

[winningtheweapon]

Wily Mo Pena is hitting .330 this season so I don't see what all of the unfairness is all about. You have to remember that this move was made for the future, and also to open up spots in the rotation for the future pitching prospects to slide into. I really never had an issue with this trade. It's just a bummer that Matt Clement wasn't added into that deal.

[Jager]

The whole point is that this would have never came up if the Sox didn't have so many pitchers on the DL. But some wise guy thought it was funny to make this thread since we could have used Bronson. It's still a good deal, and at the beginning of the year we had 7 starters, so it made sense. You can never tell who's going to get hurt, you just can't plan for 4 starters going to the DL.

[FlashGordon]

The whole point is that this would have never came up if the Sox didn't have so many pitchers on the DL. But some wise guy thought it was funny to make this thread since we could have used Bronson. It's still a good deal, and at the beginning of the year we had 7 starters, so it made sense. You can never tell who's going to get hurt, you just can't plan for 4 starters going to the DL.No, DodgerDeb has way too much respect for the Sox and their fans to start this thread for such a petty reason. She started it because she was among the many fans who felt that only a fantasy leaguer could have made such a trade. Only such a person would believe that our "7 starter" position was a true glut and that midway through Spring Training the chance to trade a healthy starting pitcher for a backup outfielder was worth the risk to the upcoming season. Looking at the musical chairs that seem to land one or more of the Boston starters on the DL at any given time (not to mention the white elephant that Foulke was before the season even began), I'd say the Sox have been very lucky that Delcarmen and Lester have been dependable and that Papelbon has been able to stabilize the closer's slot. Today the Sox try their 11th starter of the season in Gabbard. So much for the embarassment of riches in starters.

This is a debate that really won't budge one way or the other. On the one hand you have individuals who insist that the starting pitching woes are the result of a series of unforseeable bad breaks amid the calculated risks that go into every roster decision. On the other you have those who felt that the balance of risk against payoff, in the bigger picture of the 2006 season, weren't in the Red Sox' favor in the trade of Arroyo for Pena. The discussion has Pena sounding like Vladimir Guerrero and Arroyo like Roy Halliday, and thus the discussion has lost all perspective.

Wily Mo has shown much promise this season (the injury notwithstanding) and he has contributed when he can, but I don't know that his contributions have been the deciding factor in very many games. Without him in their lineup, the Sox still managed to do quite well, and the same could be said for the absence of Arroyo. Of course there remains the academic question of where the Sox would be had they kept Arroyo and had some other utility outfielder to plug in. Some might disagree, but I tend to think the Sox would be at least 5 or 6 games up on the Yankees right now. Possibly more. With Wakefield on the DL, we certainly could use another healthy, inning-eating starter like Arroyo. In fact, there have been many times this season that sentiment has been uttered.

The true test will come over the last 6 weeks of the season. The Sox, while at home for quite a bit of that time, will have an exhausting schedule and the durability of Beckett (not to mention Clement, Wells, Wakefield, and even Schilling) will be tested. The one thing the Sox have going for them is that the Yankees are in worse shape, at least pre-trade deadline. If there is a collapse, you can expect this thread to get a 2nd wind.

[SoxSon]

The true test will come over the last 6 weeks of the season. The Sox, while at home for quite a bit of that time, will have an exhausting schedule and the durability of Beckett (not to mention Clement, Wells, Wakefield, and even Schilling) will be tested. The one thing the Sox have going for them is that the Yankees are in worse shape, at least pre-trade deadline. If there is a collapse, you can expect this thread to get a 2nd wind.

Not trying to give this thread a second wind yet, but I have to disagree, if I'm reading this correctly. The true test of how fair this trade was can't be determined until at least next season, due to Pena missing time and platooning with Trot this season. If you mean the true test of how well our patchwork rotation will hold up...on that we can agree. But that is a just a sliver of the whole on this deal.

[FlashGordon]

Not trying to give this thread a second wind yet, but I have to disagree, if I'm reading this correctly. The true test of how fair this trade was can't be determined until at least next season, due to Pena missing time and platooning with Trot this season. If you mean the true test of how well our patchwork rotation will hold up...on that we can agree. But that is a just a sliver of the whole on this deal.I just mean that if there is a Red Sox meltdown where the team gets battered, especially the pitching, it will come during the final 6 weeks of the season. What's more, the wheel most likely to come off the cart is the pitching. Should that happen, we can expect more speculation about whether the trade was such a good idea.

As far as the greater value of the trade of Arroyo vs. Pena trade goes, that is something that would have to extend beyond this season for it to be labelled a significant Boston gain. Valued in terms of the first half of 2006, the trade is in Cinci's favor. Re-valued in terms of the full 2006 season, remains to be seen. Valued in terms of the full contract terms of Arroyo and Pena, that looks to be a Boston gain, but there's plenty more baseball before the stamp of approval is affixed to the deal. If Pena finds himself elevated to a full time starter and a solid everyday contributor, it will look like a good deal. My only question is whether the value Pena brings to the Red Sox is so great that it was worth putting the team in a pitching crunch (I'll insist that the "7-starter" position was waaay too optimistic till the day I die) for most of the season, particularly given the team's needs. In fact, given the nature of the market and the poor quality of pitching that is available taken on balance with the quality of offense that is available, was this a trade that needed to happen? I think the value of Arroyo as a healthy, stable starter was misjudged and the fact that we have 3 starters on the DL at the same time (Clement, Wakefield, and Wells) should only come as a surprise to those who felt all along that Arroyo was more expendible than he was.

When I look at it, the piece that has rubbed me the wrong way since day one has nothing to do with either Arroyo or Pena. I was never sold on the decision to bring in David Wells and having his broken-down body in the rotation was the most egregious of the errors. If ever there was a short-sighted move that cost the team beyond the quick-fix he provided when brought in, that would be it. His acquisition and spot in the rotation was a major contribution to the false sense of security and made the gambles of Clement and Schilling all the riskier.

Let's just hope Beckett holds up as the IPs mount and that Wakefield returns a new man in 3 weeks.

[SoxSon]

You make a good point about Wells, and perhaps much of this discussion about Bronson actually does fall back on David. I would agree that Wells provided a false sense of security in the rotation at the start of the season, and perhaps on some level smoothed the transition for Bronson to Cincinnati.

I also think your question is worth consideration: Was this a trade that needed to happen? While I've made no mystery of my thinking this was likely a good business move, I'm not convinced it was a necessary one.

The reason this specific discussion lingers, I suspect, is that the Arroyo-Pena deal reflects the larger state of management-player affairs in baseball. The way that Boston management handled the transaction was abysmal, in my opinion, and at the very least, I'd like to see some payoff for it. I also suspect that those who have had more than enough of discussing this trade also didn't have too much of an issue with the way in which Boston dealt Bronson.

I suppose I did give this thread a second wind after all.

[winningtheweapon]

Not trying to give this thread a second wind yet, but I have to disagree, if I'm reading this correctly. The true test of how fair this trade was can't be determined until at least next season, due to Pena missing time and platooning with Trot this season. If you mean the true test of how well our patchwork rotation will hold up...on that we can agree. But that is a just a sliver of the whole on this deal.


Exactly. We can't start assessing this trade until after next season.

[Green Monstah]

Let's face it, pitching in the NL is an automatic 1 run deduction on your ERA.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Let's face it, pitching in the NL is an automatic 1 run deduction on your ERA.

true. Thats why I dont want Jon Lieber at Fenway...

[TonyK]

My gut tells me that this trade will be the big reason why the Red Sox will not finish in 1st place in the AL East. It will be very difficult to stay ahead of the Yankees after they added Abreau, Lidle, and Wilson, plus have Matsui and Sheffield returning soon to an already decent club.

I do feel that in 3 to 5 years Pena will be a solid producer and one of our stars. But I think we had some chances to really put distance between ourselves and the Yankees this year, and with a third solid starter like Arroyo we would have picked up a 5 to 8 game lead that the Yankees could not overcome. Bronson should have done just as well with us as he has in Cincinnati after earning a new contract.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

My gut tells me that this trade will be the big reason why the Red Sox will not finish in 1st place in the AL East. It will be very difficult to stay ahead of the Yankees after they added Abreau, Lidle, and Wilson, plus have Matsui and Sheffield returning soon to an already decent club.

I do feel that in 3 to 5 years Pena will be a solid producer and one of our stars. But I think we had some chances to really put distance between ourselves and the Yankees this year, and with a third solid starter like Arroyo we would have picked up a 5 to 8 game lead that the Yankees could not overcome. Bronson should have done just as well with us as he has in Cincinnati after earning a new contract.


Did u see those two HR Pena hit yesterday and today? Thats the reason why he was traded to the Sox. In the offseason when Nixon is gone, what should have done then? Now we have Pena and the problem is not just solved it's an upgrade!!! When Arroyo was traded we had 7 starters.
Now everyone can come and be the most intelligent guy by saying "if"
but stop that. I would have done this trade 100 times of 100 by the beginning of the season and I would still do it. Pena is the future Manny Ramirez and it would have been a monster mistake if the Red Sox had traded him at the deadline. This guy we should give a 5-year contarct, but please not trade!

And stop the Arroyo talk now it gets really boring. Be proud that we have Pena. We will get enough starters in the offseason and hopefully resign Gonzalez the best ss in the world.

[TonyK]

Did u see those two HR Pena hit yesterday and today? Thats the reason why he was traded to the Sox. In the offseason when Nixon is gone, what should have done then? Now we have Pena and the problem is not just solved it's an upgrade!!! When Arroyo was traded we had 7 starters.
Now everyone can come and be the most intelligent guy by saying "if"
but stop that. I would have done this trade 100 times of 100 by the beginning of the season and I would still do it. Pena is the future Manny Ramirez and it would have been a monster mistake if the Red Sox had traded him at the deadline. This guy we should give a 5-year contarct, but please not trade!

And stop the Arroyo talk now it gets really boring. Be proud that we have Pena. We will get enough starters in the offseason and hopefully resign Gonzalez the best ss in the world.

I'll keep quiet when we face the Yankees and they jump all over Johnson, Wells, Snyder and Lester. Bear in mind that Cincinnati didn't put a gun to our head and demand we turn over Arroyo. They probably would have taken another pitcher, or another two players instead of him.

[Jager]

Dude get off it. Arroyo was mediocre with us, and we had 7 starters. Pena will be a mammoth HR hitter, and is already leaps and bounds past where he was in Cinci. Papa Jack is great at helping power hitters develop. It would be nice to have another pitcher simply because we had so many injuries, but this was still a great trade. There isn't any reason to say that the Reds would have taken someone else. You obviously don't know the situation. They were in need of a starter that was ready right now. No way they would take Clement because of the contract, and I'd much rather Papelbon than Arroyo. Just remember we've had problems in the rotation, but If Foulke was better, Papelbon would have been in the rotation all year long to begin with. Pap jumped out and did so great as the closer that once the starters went out with injuries it was impossible to move him to the rotation.

[shoe686276]

I don't know that anyone has mentioned it, and I am not sure that anyone here nas noticed, but, esentially since right around this thread started (June 24 exactly), Arroyo has not won a game (0-4).

When they show the games on FSN Ohio, they keep trying to come up with cute little puns on how many times he has tried to get to 10 wins (7 for 10, 8 is Enough).

Also, with the Sox losing Nixon for a while, Wily Mo has provided a bit of value this year as well.

Honestly, I believe the Reds filled two needs (getting a good pitcher and loosening up an overcrowded outfield) while the Red Sox got a right handed bat whose personality fits well with Ortiz and Manny (he's from the DR as well).

[TonyK]

Dude get off it. Arroyo was mediocre with us, and we had 7 starters. Pena will be a mammoth HR hitter, and is already leaps and bounds past where he was in Cinci. Papa Jack is great at helping power hitters develop. It would be nice to have another pitcher simply because we had so many injuries, but this was still a great trade. There isn't any reason to say that the Reds would have taken someone else. You obviously don't know the situation. They were in need of a starter that was ready right now. No way they would take Clement because of the contract, and I'd much rather Papelbon than Arroyo. Just remember we've had problems in the rotation, but If Foulke was better, Papelbon would have been in the rotation all year long to begin with. Pap jumped out and did so great as the closer that once the starters went out with injuries it was impossible to move him to the rotation.

Who were the 7 starters that were ready to begin the season? I hope you weren't expecting Wells to win a mediocre 14 games for us.

All I said is when the season is over, and if we finish in 2nd place behind NY, reporters will probably point to our lack of starting pitching as the primary reason why we didn't finish in 1st place in the AL East. It doesn't take a sharp cookie to understand you don't trade a 14-game winner if you have question marks up and down your rotation.

When the Yankees come to town for a five game series this month we can see how the starting pitching is holding up.

[VTSoxFan]

It's not just the rotation suffering this season, it's the bullpen. I heard Eckersley talking recently about the lack of the middle-man. We have a bunch of starters who can't seem to get past the 6th, and a whole mess of one-inning guys. How much longer can the team keep its head above water when the starters are gone by 6.1 and a string of 3 or 4 one-inning relievers are marched into the game? One game, or two in a week I can see -- but this happens every blessed game lately. We run out Seanez and Tavarez when the game's already lost (I hope we only run them out then), and when there's a lead or a chance to take it, out come Delcarmen, Hansen and Timlin, and hopefully, Papelbon. But we have no middle relief, no innings-eater who can keep the team in the game if the starter can't last long. (We thought Snyder might be the one, but he was terrible tonight.) I just don't think we'll make it successfully down the stretch, let alone in the playoffs, without a middle guy. Unless the starters pull it together and start going deeper into games, we're going to suffer for that long-reliever.

Back in the springtime, when we had an overabundance of starters (ha), the question was, who goes to the 'pen? And the answer usually was, Arroyo. So even if we didn't have him in the rotation (where he surely would be by this time of the year, even if he had started in the 'pen), we'd have the missing piece in the bullpen. He's versatile enough to go between starting and relieving.

Not to knock Wily Mo; he is starting to look pretty decent in the field and his bat impresses -- who could not be impressed with that line-drive homer that almost knocked the seats off the top of the Monster?

At any rate, it's all water under the bridge. Things are as they are. Arroyo has said that he really likes playing for the Reds, and we know Wily Mo is happy in Boston. But... (laughs) being greedy here, wouldn't it be nice to have 'em both?

[TonyK]

It's not just the rotation suffering this season, it's the bullpen. I heard Eckersley talking recently about the lack of the middle-man. We have a bunch of starters who can't seem to get past the 6th, and a whole mess of one-inning guys. How much longer can the team keep its head above water when the starters are gone by 6.1 and a string of 3 or 4 one-inning relievers are marched into the game? One game, or two in a week I can see -- but this happens every blessed game lately. We run out Seanez and Tavarez when the game's already lost (I hope we only run them out then), and when there's a lead or a chance to take it, out come Delcarmen, Hansen and Timlin, and hopefully, Papelbon. But we have no middle relief, no innings-eater who can keep the team in the game if the starter can't last long. (We thought Snyder might be the one, but he was terrible tonight.) I just don't think we'll make it successfully down the stretch, let alone in the playoffs, without a middle guy. Unless the starters pull it together and start going deeper into games, we're going to suffer for that long-reliever.

Back in the springtime, when we had an overabundance of starters (ha), the question was, who goes to the 'pen? And the answer usually was, Arroyo. So even if we didn't have him in the rotation (where he surely would be by this time of the year, even if he had started in the 'pen), we'd have the missing piece in the bullpen. He's versatile enough to go between starting and relieving.

Not to knock Wily Mo; he is starting to look pretty decent in the field and his bat impresses -- who could not be impressed with that line-drive homer that almost knocked the seats off the top of the Monster?

At any rate, it's all water under the bridge. Things are as they are. Arroyo has said that he really likes playing for the Reds, and we know Wily Mo is happy in Boston. But... (laughs) being greedy here, wouldn't it be nice to have 'em both?

Good point that Arroyo could have helped us now as a middle reliever. Wells would have looked dapper in the Reds' red and white uniform I believe. ;-)

I hope that someone besides Schilling, Beckett, Timlin and Papelbon steps up to help carry the club. They need consistentsy (sp?) from one or two other pitchers.

[Jager]

That's just it though Tony. I would have loved to keep Arroyo, but I still want Pena. If we could have given a different pitcher fine, but they didn't want Wells or Clement. BTW our 7 starters were. Schilling, Beckett, Wake, Wells, Clement, Arroyo, and Papelbon. Schilling wasn't as big of a question mark as everyone thought. In 05 he never said once that his ankle was better. In 06 Schill said he feels great and the ankle feels great, and he's pitched that way. Wells was our only real question mark. Sure a pretty good sized one, but we still had Papelbon. It just so happened our closer was ineffective so we put Papelbon there, and he was so good that we didn't want to move him back and forth between a starter and closer because they certainly thought everyone would be back by now. The problem isn't that we had injuries to our pitchers, it was that they've been out for a long time. Wells, Clement, Wakefield, Dinardo, Timlin, and Foulke have all spent time on the DL, and most for extended periods of time. Anytime 3 starters, you long man, 8th inning guy, and closer are on the DL it's going to be very tough. There wasn't any way to know this junk would happen, and at the beginning of the year it seemed like with 7 starters 1 was expendable, and that one happened to be Arroyo. Like I said I would have liked to keep him, but I'm definetely happy with Pena.

[TonyK]

Jager,

It this is a temporary situation for the pitching staff then I can live with it. I'll wait until October to look at this trade again.

[ssbguyincognito]

Do you guys believe Arroyo has really improved that much since last year, or maybe he just went to the NL?

I think the biggest reason they made this trade was because this year's free agent class is very very very weak, and they really need an OFer. Pena can play all 3 OF positions, he's the perfect batter for Fenway, and he's very young (I believe 24).

However, he doesn't fit in with the Red Sox offensive philsoophy -- take pitches and work the walk.

[RedSoxVT92]

However, he doesn't fit in with the Red Sox offensive philsoophy -- take pitches and work the walk.

Have you ever heard of Kevin Youkilis? How about, David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez? Look if your just trying to bash the Red Sox, I suggest you go to the Yankee forum.

[ssbguyincognito]

I think you might have misinterpreted what I said.

Willy Mo Pena doesn't fit in with the Red Sox overall offensive philosophy, which is based on guys who work the count and walk a ton. That's really how they won their 2004 championship; I remember every guy on that offense would go to a full count, and not swing at anything. Willy Mo pena is much more of a free swinger than that, and he barely walks.

Bash the Red Sox? I just asked a question and offered my opinion of Willy Mo Pena. I have no idea why you are being so defensive. I can't imagine what I said was aggresive in any way whatsoever.

Yes, Kevin Youklis, Ortiz, and Manny all take pitches and walk. That's exactly what I said!

[VTSoxFan]

RSVT92, I think ssbguy was just pointing out that Pena is not as patient at the plate as some other players.

While Pena has improved some since the early days (thank you, Papa Jack!), he still has those moments when he seems to swing at any pitch withn five feet of the strike zone. (of course, we've seen Manny do that, too....) With a little more time, a little more maturing, Pena will likely acquire a better eye, be more selective, and thus earn more walks.

[RedSoxVT92]

Oh, I see. My bad, I guess im a little on the edge with all these injurys attacking the Sox. :o

[Jager]

RSVT92, I think ssbguy was just pointing out that Pena is not as patient at the plate as some other players.

While Pena has improved some since the early days (thank you, Papa Jack!), he still has those moments when he seems to swing at any pitch withn five feet of the strike zone. (of course, we've seen Manny do that, too....) With a little more time, a little more maturing, Pena will likely acquire a better eye, be more selective, and thus earn more walks.

It's just "Wily Being Wily" :laugh

[yeoohomie12]

Ok but lets just get one thing straight how is Arroyos 9-7 with a 3.47 era lights out. Willie moe is producing way more then arroyo ever would have this year just face it he is hitting over .300 and he is sone to take over the great Trot Nixons spot on the roster!!..

[EvanAparra]

Who were the 7 starters that were ready to begin the season? I hope you weren't expecting Wells to win a mediocre 14 games for us..

14 games is mediocre??

[Dick Groat's syndrome]

As a Reds fan in the NL and a Red Sox fan in the AL, I would like to thank my AL team for greatly benefiting my NL team. I would also like to think that Wily Mo will blossom. He has tremendous power and was my 2nd favorite Reds player after the Donkey.

[TonyK]

14 games is mediocre??

That's what I thought to myself after someone described 14-game winner Arroyo in 2005 as just a mediocre pitcher. Right now, if our #4 and #5 starters combined reach 14 wins we might still make the playoffs.

[EvanAparra]

Well i think Arroyo was above mediocrity, but not a great pitcher either. I guess he just finally learned how to locate his fastball, he could never throw that thing in the strike zone in boston.

[PhilWings24]

i'd bet this has been mentioned already, but interleague play made this trade alot easier to swallow.

although i doubt its this extreme, i can at least trick myself into thinking that arroyo would be getting killed if he played in the AL.

i hated this deal when it happened (i've been big on arroyo for quite a while), and the start of the year only made it worse...but arroyo's been doin worse, willy mo is quite the boc of potential, so i'm startin to hate it a little less.

still don't like it though..

[binga58]

I watched the METS/Cincinnati game last night. BRONSON ARROYO was lights out!

WHO was the SOX genius who peddled him to Cincy this spring? THAT idiot should be FIRED!

c.

the same guy who got us wily mo man think!!!???

[Jager]

It goes back to what I said all along. Arroyo's numbers were shrunken like a ballplayer on steroids nads. lol. Arroyo is a solid 4 or 5, but Wily Mo was a 24 year old kid with TONS of potential. It looked lopsided at the beginning of the season, so most people jumped on the bandwagon, but Wily Mo for Arroyo was a fantastic deal for the Sox. Not to brag, but "I told you so!" lol

[TonyK]

It goes back to what I said all along. Arroyo's numbers were shrunken like a ballplayer on steroids nads. lol. Arroyo is a solid 4 or 5, but Wily Mo was a 24 year old kid with TONS of potential. It looked lopsided at the beginning of the season, so most people jumped on the bandwagon, but Wily Mo for Arroyo was a fantastic deal for the Sox. Not to brag, but "I told you so!" lol

You really think this trade was a fantastic deal for the Sox for this season? Don't you see the big gap in our starting pitching because of it?

Wells, Snyder, Pauley, DiNardo, and Johnson have combined to throw 22 starts because we have lacked a decent #4 or #5 all year. Their combined record as starting pitchers is a horrible 4-11, and their ERA's are 5.08, 6.23, 7.11, 7.20, and 7.88. Those numbers are one reason why we fell out of first place.

Arroyo was leading the NL in IP as of last week, and is in the top dozen NL starters in ERA. His team is not as good as the Red Sox so there is no telling how he would have done for us.

Wily Mo should eventually outperform him in a few years, but I wouldn't say he has this year. Wait until the season is over.

[Jager]

It's a good deal for this season given how Wily Mo is performing, and he'll be with us for a long time. This deal will look better and better every year.

BTW trading Arroyo had nothing to do with the gap in our starters. Injuries had everything to do with it. Papelbon was already doing well in the closer's role, so they didn't want to move him back and forth. Clement has stunk this year when he hasn't been on the DL. The injuries have hurt our pitching not losing Arroyo. Would Arroyo have helped? Sure, but there was no reason to think that Wells, Clement, Wakefield, Foulke, Timlin, DiNardo, and more would all be on the DL, and Clement and Wells for most of the season.

[pesky6]

Good point that Arroyo could have helped us now as a middle reliever. Wells would have looked dapper in the Reds' red and white uniform I believe. ;-)

I hope that someone besides Schilling, Beckett, Timlin and Papelbon steps up to help carry the club. They need consistentsy (sp?) from one or two other pitchers.

You're assuming that the Reds would have traded Pena for Wells. There's no way that would have happened.

[TonyK]

You're assuming that the Reds would have traded Pena for Wells. There's no way that would have happened.

Not assuming, just praying.

[TonyK]

It's a good deal for this season given how Wily Mo is performing, and he'll be with us for a long time. This deal will look better and better every year.

BTW trading Arroyo had nothing to do with the gap in our starters. Injuries had everything to do with it. Papelbon was already doing well in the closer's role, so they didn't want to move him back and forth. Clement has stunk this year when he hasn't been on the DL. The injuries have hurt our pitching not losing Arroyo. Would Arroyo have helped? Sure, but there was no reason to think that Wells, Clement, Wakefield, Foulke, Timlin, DiNardo, and more would all be on the DL, and Clement and Wells for most of the season.

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but let's look back five or six months. Who could we count on as reliable starters...Wakefield, Beckett, and Arroyo are all I can come up with. That's three starters we could expect 10 or more victories from.

Schilling was a question mark after his 8-8 record in 2005. Clement had not pitched well since he was beaned, plus don't forget his terrible start against CHI-AL in the playoffs. Wells had surgery and was in rehab so he was a huge question mark, if you pardon the pun. DiNardo has never won 10 games for the Red Sox. Lester was unproven and untested. Maybe you could count on Papelbon winning over 10 games as a starter? That's six question marks, and only one has pitched solidly as a starter.

Back to this 2006 season: Arroyo has had 15 Quality Starts compared to the 4 Quality Starts for our "Floundering Five" (Wells, Johnson, Snyder, DiNardo and Pauley). So far we have lost 11 quality starts from this trade no matter how you look at it. Imagine if Arroyo had given us 15 Quality Starts already.

On the plus side, Wily Mo is batting over .300 with 26 runs and 34 RBI's. His OBP is only .368 due to his strikeouts. I figure his addition has helped us increase our runs scored by maybe 5 to 10 runs compared to a Gabe Kapler type of OF replacement (based on their stats).

Let's wait until the season is over as Arroyo does seem to be tiring a little and Wily Mo's bat is hot.

[Jager]

Schilling wasn't a question mark for me. in 05 he was injured, and said he was injured, and not ready, but tried to help the team. For 06 he said he was all better, and he was. Clement was an allstar last year, and I didn't foresee him being out most of the year. Papelbon was the other. Call a rookie a question mark if you want, but look at all the rookies this year that are pitching great, and he showed us last year that he could be effective.

Wells was a question mark, but with the other 5 (Schilling, Wakefield, Beckett, Clement, Papelbon), and possibly Wells, which got hit by a line drive in the same spot he had surgery. If not for that Wells would have been back 2 months ago.

[TonyK]

Schilling wasn't a question mark for me. in 05 he was injured, and said he was injured, and not ready, but tried to help the team. For 06 he said he was all better, and he was. Clement was an allstar last year, and I didn't foresee him being out most of the year. Papelbon was the other. Call a rookie a question mark if you want, but look at all the rookies this year that are pitching great, and he showed us last year that he could be effective.

Wells was a question mark, but with the other 5 (Schilling, Wakefield, Beckett, Clement, Papelbon), and possibly Wells, which got hit by a line drive in the same spot he had surgery. If not for that Wells would have been back 2 months ago.

I understand how you arrived at 5 starters. But the whole bunch may not have been good enough if you look at how many wins they had last year. Clement is doing about what I expected from him which isn't much. Maybe he can turn it around next year?

[Jager]

Last year Schill wasn't healthy, but I felt confident that you could pencil him in for 15-18 wins, Wake would be a solid innings eater as usual, although that hasn't worked out lately, Beckett 15-18, Clement 12 ( I figured that was a decent amount for him considering he was great last year until he got hit in the head, and Papelbon 10. That's not bad at all.

[FlashGordon]

Schilling wasn't a question mark for me. He should have been. We are fortunate that he has been as good as he is, but there were certainly no guarantees and he had a pretty lousy spring in Ft. Myers. Anyone as old as Curt is who had the kind of health issues he had last year is a question mark.
Clement was an allstar last year, and I didn't foresee him being out most of the year.Neither did I, but I did forsee him with confidence problems. That was a nasty knock he took and that can really mess with a pitcher's confidence.
Wells was a question mark, but with the other 5 (Schilling, Wakefield, Beckett, Clement, Papelbon), and possibly Wells, which got hit by a line drive in the same spot he had surgery. If not for that Wells would have been back 2 months ago.Wells is always a question mark. He's nearing the end of his career and his commitment has been called into question by teams he really wanted to play with (NY and San Diego). The Sox were just the best thing he had left on the table. He is getting stronger, but it might be too little, too late at this point. If he senses the Sox are out of it, you might see him just do enough to earn his paycheck until retirement.

You are certainly entitled to have your own opinion, but in my estimation this rotation was a string of gambles from the get go. Schilling paid off, Wells might still pay returns, and Beckett is wading into uncharted waters (he's at 152.1 innings) and looking shakier with every outing. Clement has been a bust and Wakefield was a nasty surprise.

What I find amazing is how Wake gets touted for eating up innings, yet Arroyo's ability to go deep is shrugged off as unimpressive. All Red Sox pitchers have combined for exactly 1 CG (Wakefield): Arroyo has thrown 2 this season in a league where pitchers are more likely to be removed in the late innings for a pinch hitter. I've said it before, his health and stability would have been nice to draw upon this season, at least in the first half when we really could have used it.

Ultimately this is a discussion that can only be productive if we can agree on a few facts. If you don't believe there were serious questions about the rotation before the season began and you think the Sox needed to work on building up their offense, then we are starting from opposing positions. How good Wily Mo is or will be is not really much of a debate.