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Bill Burgess
01-01-2002, 07:20 AM
Since we've recently received requests for more historical stuff in History Forum, I will do what I can to show good quality stuff. I will try to stimulate discussion, if I can. Here is the first attempt. This 'thread' is basicly a compilation of miscellaneous posts that I hope will prove themselves useful to all. Not a 'real' thread at all, simply collection of individual posts, which I hoped could prove helpful in some way.

Does anyone want to discuss sports writers?
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The Sports Writers:

Who were the best/most influential baseball writers? I thought I'd take a shot. So here goes. First those who wrote the sport of baseball the best.

Henry Chadwick---1856-1908, NY sp.wr.,author; Family moved Brooklyn,NY(Sept.21,1837); NY Times cricket reports(1856), Brooklyn Eagle cricket,BB ed.(1856-94), NY Herald, NY World sp wr(13yrs), NY Sun(6yrs), Sp. News, Sp. Life, Yankee Clipper(1858-?) Ball Players' Chronicle(1867-69). In 1896, NL voted him pension for life.Editor-in-chief of NL Spalding baseball guide until his death(1881-08


Tim Murnane---1888-1917, Boston sports writer; former ML 1B(1872-78,84), Founded Boston Referee(1885), Boston Globe spwr. & sp.ed.(1888-1917,Feb.7, death). President: New England L. : 24 yrs. Buried: Old Calvary Cemetery, Roslindale, MA


Sam Crane-----1890-1925, NY sp. wr.; Studied civil engineering at MIT for 2 yrs.,ML best 2nd baseman(1880-90), managed Buffalo in NL(1879-80) & Cincinnati(U,1884). Old Atlantic League Pres.(1895), New York Press sp.wr.(1890-98), NY Journal(1898-1925).


Francis Charles Richter------1868-1926, Phil. sportswriter; Was editor-in-chief of Reach Official American League Base Ball Guide(1902-1926,Feb.12, death); Died the day after the manuscript of the 1925 Reach Guide was completed. Drew up National Agreement(1883), helped place Phil Club in AA(1882), Helped place Phil club in NL(1883),helped assimilate AA into NL(1891), drew up Millenium Plan which ended BB war. Richly deserves BB Hall of Fame.Whole existence-BB


William B. Hanna--------1884-1930, NY,Kansas City spwr.; Grad. Lafayette College,Easton,PA(1878);Kansas City Star,Arrived NYC(1888), NY Herald, NY Press(1893),NY Sun(1900-16), NY Herald('16-24), Herald-Tribune('24-May,'30,death);Acknowledged expert on baseball, football & billiards.


Charles Dryden---------1893-1921, Chicago sp.wr.; Chicago Sunday Times reporter(1889-1890), San Francisco examiner sp.wr.(1890), NY Evening Journal(1898-99), Phil. North American(1899-1905), Chicago Tribune('06-08), Chicago Examiner('08-17), Chicago Herald & Examiner('18-21). He was one of the 1st, most popular & most influential baseball writers who ever lived. Humorist influenced a generation of following baseball writers, such as Ring Lardner and Hugh Keough. Suffered devastating stoke('21) left him disabled. Awarded Spink award('65).


Jake Morse------------1884-1915, Boston sports writer; Grad. Roxbury Latin Sch.(1877), Harvard College(1881), Boston U. Law Sch.(1884); Boston Herald(1884-1907, sp.ed.1884-1901), Secretary of New England Baseball League, became insurance man(1915), Wrote a history of Baseball(Sphere & Ash,1888).Helped launch Baseball Magazine('08) & was one of its' Presidents & editors 'til 1912. Boston Traveler( ?-37, death).Managed Boston Nationals(U,1884)


Walter Barnes-------------1889-1939, Boston sports writer; Boston Post reporter(1889-1891), Boston Journal sp.ed.(1891-06,Oct.), Boston Herald sp.ed.('06-11), Boston Globe('11-33)(sp.ed.'14-33)(Emeritus,'33-40).


John B. Foster--------1888-1941, NY spwr.; Norwalk HS, OH; st. ed.; Clev. Press gen. rep. & state ed., Clev. Leader sp.ed.(?-1888), Arrived NYC (1896), NY Evening Telegraph sp.ed. & city ed.(1896-11), NY Journal, NY Herald, NY Sun (1920-31), Consolidated Press Ass. (1918-20), Credited with promoting Army Navy game at the Polo Grounds into national interest. Years on BB 's rules committee. Considered an authority on BB law, rules, admin. Credited with answering 500,000 questions on BB rules, laws, and various phases of BB. Wrote digest of rules for the French. Was named official authority for rules for Japan. Official scorer at Polo Grounds. Couldn't attend games after '32, due to right side paralyzed. Followed BB via radio,papers. Giants' Secretary & business manager(Jan. 6, '13-1919, Dec. 4); Paralyzed on his right side his last 9 yrs. Editor-in-Chief of Spalding
Official NL Base Ball Guide (1908-1941).

Hugh Keough-------------1888-1912, Chicago sp.wr.; Hamilton Spectator(Ontario) reporter, 1881, Sporting Journal(1888-1890), Chicago Times reporter, sp.ed.(1891-94), San Francisco Chronicle sp.ed.(1895), New Orleans Item(1896), Lake County Times man.ed.(1900-05), d. after 6 wk. illness. Chicago Tribune sp. wr. & columnist (1905-12). While at The Chicago Tribune, he started and made famous The Wake of the News from 1905-12. It's thought to be the oldest, continuous sports column in the US. Worked newspapers 31 yrs.


John B. Sheridan--------1880's-1929, St. Louis spwr. (1880's-1929); Sporting News column, "Back of Home Plate", Dec.5,1918 - 1929,Apr.18; Started on St. Louis Globe-Democrat(1880's), Post-Dispatch, The Republic, Globe-Democrat. Missouri Committee on Public Utility Information manager,1921-. While on Committee, he blew the whistle on some corrupt practices, and then tendered his resignation. Shortly thereafter he suffered nervous disorders, and received profess. care in sanitarium. Buried: Catholic Calvary Cemetey., St. Louis, MO. Sherry's column for Sporting News "Back of Home Plate", 1917-29, gained for him national respect as a baseball writer. He also wrote with authority on boxing, golf, and most sports. Personally, I suspect that his physical problems, which started soon after he exposed government corruption, was a result of sabotage. I also suspect his
so-called "suicide" may have been unsuspected homicide.
He was found hanging in his room at Alexian Brothers Hospital, by a bathrobe cord.


Henry Edwards-------1898-1942, Cleveland sports writer, AL service bureau; Cleveland recorder sp.ed.(1898-1901,Apr.), Cleveland Plain Dealer sp.ed.(July 29,'01-'28,Feb.1), Amer. League service bureau, Chicago(Feb.1,'28-42,Feb.1).


Bill Phelon------------1888-1925, Chi. NY,Cincinnati sp.wr.;Chi. Daily News('88-05,Oct.),Chi. Daily Journal(Oct.'05-08),Chi. Tribune('08-10),NY Morning Telegraph(1910),Cincinnati Times-Star sp.ed.(spring,'10-25). Easily most colorful eccentric sportswriter ever lived. Rube Waddell of BWAA. A great book should be written about him. As a writer,Bill was one of the best,and one of the most prolific. He was an associate editor of Baseball Magazine(Mar.'13-24,Nov.). He had replaced Jake Morse(Boston sp.wr.),who himself had encyclopedic BB knowledge of all things baseball. Also was Cincinnati correspondent for theSporting News. From 1889-1915, had scored over 3,500 ballgames. Made all road trips with Reds. Total home team rooter. Died after 3 days of Bright's disease. As a complete authority of baseball, he lived the game. Had been famous amateur ballplayer & boxer,was
an actor, wrote for the stage, studied Indian lore,
wrote baseball poetry, was twice married with a son; Contributed to Weekly BB Guide,Chicago BB News, Herald Examiner, NY World,


Charles Van Loan---------1904-1910, SF,LA,NY sp. wr.; Was one of best baseball storytellers of his age. He was called the greatest baseball writer by several of his peers. d. chronic nephritis at Philadelphia Hosp., Was on East Coast on business


Grantland Rice------------1902-1954, Atlanta, NY spwr.; edu: Wallace Univ. Sch. Nashville,TN; Vanderbilt U. ed. The American Golfer; Nashville Daily News; Atlanta Journal sp.ed (1902-05); Cleveland News (1905-07); Nashville Tennessean spwr.(1907-10); NY Evening Mail sp. columnist (1910-13), NY Tribune spwr. & syndicated columnist (1913-24), NY Herald Tribune (1924-54). Wrote many books, and contributed to numerous magazines. The quinessential Southern Gentleman, Granny Rice was without a shadow of a doubt the most well-known & loved spwr. of his & perhaps all times. His autobiography was, "The Tumult & the Shouting: My Life in Sport", 1954. Buried: Woodlawn Cemetery, NY



Harry Salsinger-------1907-1958, Detroit News sports editor his whole career. Was Ty Cobb's biggest booster in print.

Ferdinand Cole Lane-------1910-1937, Editor-in-Chief Baseball Magazine(Boston,'10-12), ('12-38, NYC). Wrote probably close to 1,000 excellent detailed articles on baseball's technical side as well as interviews w/stars at home in winter. H of Fame must.

After retiring in 1937 from the editor's chair, he returned to Cape Cod for his long life. Headed Piedmont College's Hist. Dept.('41-43) at Demorest, GA. Established journalism program there. He traveled extensively with wife Emma, whom he married in June, 1914. Together they made many overseas voyages,circling globe 6 times. Wrote several books on geography & nature for adults & youths, '40's-50's. Publ. his poems in '58(On Old Cape Cod). Lived their final yrs. in Cape Cod nursing home, she died 10 months after him.



Fred Lieb--------------1910-1977, NYC Sports writer; Phil. News bureau(magazine & newspaper('10), New York Press, baseball ed.('11-16), NY Morning Sun('16-21), NY Telegram, baseball ed.('21-27), NY Evening Post(Mar.'27-34), moved to St. Petersberg,FL('34). Sporting News correspondent('35-58) & columnist('43-47), St. Petersburg Times(Florida)('65-77). Feb.,'80-Jun.5,1980 nursing home Houston,TX. World Series scorer('22-24), covered World Series('11-58). Sporting News historian for yrs. edu; Phila Central Manual Training HS, Pa. assoc ed, weekly Baseball Guide; writer, Christy Walsh Syndicate; past assoc ed, baseball Magazine, Sport-life. chief official scorer, World's Series, 1922-23-24;




Dan Daniel---------1910-1960's, NY spwr.; national correspondent for TSN, mainly covered Yankees, was as much an authority in boxing as BB. NY World-Telegram, NY World-Telegram & Sun, Helped found Ring Magazine in 1922, Could also handle FB. Pres. BBWAA, Baseball Rules committee, Won Spink Award in 1972, BB's Hall of Fame Veterans committee, Chairman of NY chapter of BWAA, more honors/awards than can be listed. buried: Forrest Lawn Memorial Gardens, Pompano Beach, FL

Frank Graham, Jr.-------1915-1964, NYC spwr; Born Harlem,NYC; NY Sun spwr('15-34), sports columnist('34-43), Look magazine sp. ed.('43-45), NY Journal-American sports columnist, Graham's Corner('45-65). Wrote 6 sports books. Boxing authority. d. Fractured skull in bathroom fall at home


Alan Gould---------1921-1963, NY spwr; Worked for papers in Elmira, Ithaca & Binghamton, NY; Ithaca Journal reporter (1917); Associated Press, NY sp. ed. , Executive editor, ('22-63). Moved Florida ('75). d. heart attack


Jack McDonald------1926-1986, San Francisco sports writer; Omaga Bee,Klamath Falls News, Sacramento Bee, Sacramento Union, San Fran. United Press Bureau, San Fran. Call('26-?),SF Call-Bulletin'26-59)('47-59, sp.ed.), SF News-Call Bulletin('59-65), San Francisco Examiner rewrite man('65-67,Jan. 25, retired), After retirement moved to Mexico to enjoy the good life, but just couldn't stop writing free lance. In 1978, moved back to San Diego.



Jimmy Powers-----1925-1959, NY spwr.; Cleveland Press, '25-26, NY sp. ed. NEA syndicate('27-28), NY News, '29--33, NY Daily News, 1936-59.


Sam Lacy----------1918-1990's, Wash, Baltimore spwr; His mother was Shinnecock Indian; Grew up Wash. DC, 5 blocks from Griffith stadium, Grad. Howard U., bachelor's in physical education('23). Devoted his early life to lobbying for integration of ML baseball & society. Washington Tribune: part-time spwr., reporter('18-20,23-30), managing ed., spwr.,('30-34), sp.ed., columnist('34-39); Baltimore Afro-American spwr., columnist('39-40), sp.ed., columnist('43-, Chicago Defender ass. national ed.('40-43), 1st Black in the Baseball Writers Association('48), Taylor Spink Award(Baseball Hall of Fame, 1997), Personally knew many black stars(J.Louis,J.Owens,A.Ashe), but never shirked from criticizing them if he felt warranted. Mentor: Father


Charles Michael Segar-------1920-1971, Brooklyn,NY sports writer; Born England, Brooklyn Citizen('19-26), New York Mirror('26-46), Manager of National Service Bureau, Secretary-Treasurer in Commissioner's office('65-71,Feb), administrator players benefit plan, Chairman Players Rules Committee('62-71,lJul.23), Blue Book revision committee. Loved golf, movies, TV, d. natural causes, cremated, buried: Pinelawn Cemetery, Long Island, NY


Shirley Povich-------1922-1998, Washington spwr.' Washington Post spwr. (1922-74), Even though he "retired" in '74, he continued his column "This Morning", very often.


Dick Young---------1942-1987, NY spwr.; NY Daily News sportswriter, columnist, sp. ed. (1942-82), NY post spwr. and sp. ed. NY Post (1982-87).


Walter Wellesley (Red) Smith-----1927-1982, Milwaukee Sentinel('27-28),St. Louis Star sp. wr. & copy ed.('28-33), St. Louis Star-Times re-write man('33-36), Phil. Record sp. rep. & columnist(''36-45), NY Herald Tribune sp. columnist('45-67, Publishers-Hall Syndicate.('67-71), NY Times('71-82). Similar to Grantland Rice in style. Grace, humor, brimming with gentle, lyrical prose. Much loved writer.



Bob Broeg----------1945-2000, St. Louis spwr.; St. Louis Post-Dispatch staff writer, 1945-58, sp. ed. '58-85, & ass. to publisher '77-85. His columns appeared in TSN until the 1980's.

Furman Bisher--------1938-2004, Atlanta sp. ed.; Lumberton Voice ed.('38-39),High Point Enterprise wire service & sp. ed.('39-40),Charlotte News(state ed.,'40-42, sp.ed.,46-50),Atlanta Constitution sp.ed.('50-57),Atlanta Journal & Sunday Journal-Constitution('57-pres.),Sp.News columnist


Leonard Koppett------1948-2003, Born Moscow, moved US 1928, NY Herald sp. wr.('48-54), NY Post sp.wr.('54-63), NY Times sp.wr.('63-73), NY Times correspondent in Palo Alto,CA('73-78), Peninsula Times-Tribune sp. ed.(Palo Alto,CA, '79-93). Spink Award (BB, Hall of Fame, '93). Leonard was vastly interested in history, opera, classical music, Marx Bros. movies. He thought expansion was a disaster for baseball. He was also vastly interested in a statistical analysis approach to baseball.


John Steadman--------1945-2000, Baltimore sports writer; Baltimore News-Post reporter(1945,sp.ed., - 1956), Baltimore News-American,Baltimore Evening Sun('80's), Baltimore Sun('95-2000,Dec.3). wrote 7 books, d. cancer


Joe Falls--------------1951-2004, NY & Detroit spwr; AP copyboy, NYC ('46-51), NY spwr.('51-53), AP sp. ed., Det.,('53-56), Detroit Times spwr.('56-60), Detroit Free Press spwr.('60-65) sp.ed. & columnist('66-78), Detroit News sp.ed. & columnist;Sporting News correspondent('65-85).


Next we had those who began as baseball beat writers, but went on to gain fame in other fields, far more than they ever had as BB writers. Ade, Adams, and Dunne gained fame as Will Rogers type whimsical humorists.

George Ade---------1890-1900, Chicago spwr.; Chicago Record (1890-1900) covered many sports. Grad. Purdue U. 1887, did newspaper work from 1887, moved Chicago June, 1890, moved quickly from cub to star reporter. In '93, collaborated with illustrator partner John McCutcheon at Chicago Morning News on editorial page columns describing Columbian Exposition, then he began his regular column "Stories of the Streets and of the Town". Paper became the Record. Began "fables in slang" in 1897. The Record published 8 collections of his columns. Left jornalism in 1900, did plays, musicals, screenplays. Was acknowleged as great master humorist.


Franklyn J. Adams------1919-1962, NY sp. wr.; Sporting News(St. Louis), New York Herald Tribune('27-30), NY Daily News sp. wr.('30-62,retired), After service in world War I, he began his sports-writing career, which included 15 newspapers.


Finley Peter Dunne-----1884-1904, Chicago writer; Political cartoonist created Mr. Dooley, saloon owner, wry observations on issues entertained readers for 30 yrs. His cartoons are collected in book forms. Chicago Daily News editorials & sports(1884-88), Chicago Times('1888-89) as political reporter,ed.wr. ,city ed.,Chicago Tribune reporter,ed.Sunday ed., Chicago Herald reporter(1890), Chicago Evening Post ed. page(1892), Chicago Journal managing ed.(1897-00), NYC Harper's Weekly/collier's Weekly('00-02), NY Morning Telegraph('02-04),American Magazine wrote dialect essays & monthly ed. In the Interpreter's House('06-13),Collier's Weekly political commentary('13-15,editor-in-chief '17-19). When Payne Whitney died in 1924, he bequeathed $500,000. to Dunne, far more than enough to enable Dunne
to live the rest of his life in high lavish fashion without
need of further work. d. throat cancer hemorrhaging after long battle.

Runyon gained fame as a free-lance novelist, who specialized in sketching broadway types & gangsters.

Damon Runyon---------1911-1917, NYC sp. wr. & author; Arrived NYC('11), served 1912-16 as Hearst foreign correspondent in Mexico & Europe. Made his name as author of novels with colorful Broadway characters. Many of his novels were used for movies,such as Guys & Dolls('55), Double Indemnity('44), Idyll of Miss Sarah Brown('55), Little Miss Marker, with Shirley Temple('34), Lemon-Drop Kid('51), Lady For A Day('33), A Slight Case of Murder('38), d. developed throat cancer('38), lost speech('44), after operation.

Lardner made it by syndicating his stuff, with BB characters who talked in slang dialects, spiced with lots of humor. His copy lost a lot of its punch in the 1920's. He had hit big in the 1910's.

Ring Lardner----------1907-1919, Chicago,NY,Boston sports writer; Chicago Inter Ocean('07-10), Chicago Examiner('10),Chicago Tribune('10), Sporting News man. ed.('10),Boston American,sp.ed.(Feb.'11-'11,Oct), Chicago American,copy reader,Chicago Examiner,sp.writer; Equally good at BB & FB
(Lardner, continued), Chicago Tribune(June,'12-19), Conducted The Wake of the News for the Chicago Tribune from June, 1913 to June, 1919, when he left for NYC. Oldest, continuous sp. column in US. NY Bell Syndicate of John N. Wheeler('19-27). When he went to work for the Bell Syndicate of John Wheeler, he wrote a weekly column, moved his family from Chicago to NYC, traveled the US covering major sporting events, continued his fiction for magazines. In 1932, he published a series of autobiographical articles for Saturday Evening Post. Ring was diagnosed with TB. He died following a heart attack. He became extremely disillusioned with baseball after 1920, due to the live ball style of HRs.

Broun gained his most renoun as a left-of-center social/political columnist.

Heywood Broun------1912-1919, NY s pwr.; NY Morning Telegraph reporter('08,10-11), NY Evening Sun('09), New York Tribune(copyreader, rewrite man,sports writer,sp.ed.,war correspondent, critic,columnist('11-21), NY World('21-28), NY Telegram('28-31), NY World-Telegram('31-39), NY Post('39), Early as Giants fan, he would root violently for his Giants. In '17-18, WWI, disliked Pershing & sent his copy directly to NY Tribune. Harvard niv. 1910. Lecturer on modern drama, Columbia Univ, 1920; Rand School, NY, 1921; dramatic ed, Vanity Fair; motion picture ed, Judge, NY Contributor to mags on the theatre, books, sports, and politics.

Broun's twin-mirror opposite was Pegler, who achieved his greatest notoriety as a right-of-center social/political columnist. His flavor was known as just plain mean. Much meaner than Rush Limbaugh today. Closer to Michael Savage, but without the unbridled hysteria.

Westbrook Pegler----1925-1933, NY spwr.; Des Moines newspaper, United Press office in NY('12),St. Louis,Dallas,TX as a reporter, buss. manager. Went to London, England as foreign correspondent with Amer. Expeditionary Force, '16. Enlisted US Navy. After war, returned to UP('19) in NY office, as spwr. & sp. ed. From 1925-33, Pegler was an extremely high-paid spwr. for the Chicago Tribune. In 1933, he was sent to Washington, DC, to write politics & politicians. He developed an extremely bitterly-biting, critical, ascerbic style of attack journalism. Became feared for his poisoned pen, or type-writer. In 1933, Pegler went nationally syndicated with his "Fair Eough" column for Scripps-Howard, within the Hearst family of papers. He targeted labor union bosses as a menace. In '44, went to NY Journal-American, with "As Pegler Sees It." Pegler became a 1930's & 40's version of Rush Limbaugh & Joe McCarthy. When the Political Right unleashed it's dogs of war, Pegler was the lead dog. In 1949, Westbrook Pegler attacked Quentin Reynolds so bitterly, that Quentin sued him for libel & won. Louis Nizer was Reynold's Jewish attorney, who won for him $175,000. and earned the enmity of Pegler for Jews.
But after that Pegler's career didn't seem to have it's former impetus.
The case had lasted 5 yrs.

Ed Sullivan started as a NYC BB beat writer, and was a sports writer for 12 yrs. before he became a TV personality.


Ed Sullivan-----------1936-1948, NY spwr; NY Mail, World, Morning Telegraph, Daily News(column "Little Old New York", which he continued till his death; Gained TV immortality for his long-running Sunday night TV variety show, "The Ed Sullivan Show" (June 20,1948- June 6,1971); d. cancer



Gene Fowler left sports journalism after an 11 yr. career in baseball writing, under his mentor, Damon Runyon, (they both came from Denver, having been trained under Otto Floto), and became a highly sucessful biographer. He used a brightly colorful style.

Gene Fowler--------1917-1928, New York spwr.; NY American sp. wr.(Oct.'17-24), NY Daily Mirror sp.ed.(24-25), NY American man. ed.('25-28), NY Morning Telegraph('28), free lance biographer('28-60). Himself a true character, known for his many affairs. Hollywood script writer. Biographies: William Fallon, famous NYC attorney(The Great Mouthpiece,'31), John Barrymore(Good Night, Sweet Prince,'43), Jimmy Walker,NYC mayor,'26-32(Beau James,'49), Jimmy Durante(Schnozzola,'51), Minutes of the Last Meeting(W.C. Fields) edu; West Denver HS, Colo; Univ of Colo; Univ of Colo Sch. of Journalism



Taylor Spink seldom wrote anything himself personally. He'd have one of his writers to it for him. He was owner/editor-in-chief of Sporting News for 48 yrs. He made it into the greatest sports paper ever put out. It was baseball only from 1900 until WWII, and then broadened into an all-inclusive sports newspaper. He was a fanatical, relentless, perfectionist, inexhaustable boss. And his paper proved it. Doubt if there will ever be anything like it again.


JG Taylor Spink---------1914-1962, inherited The Sporting News from his Dad in 1914, and owned, guided the best sports publication ever until his death in Dec., 1962. After his death, an award was created for the best sports writers, the Spink Award. It's a lifetime achievement award for the sports writing profession.


So, folks. Here are my candidates for the greatest, most influential, best sports writers, I've ever read. Some of their careers were relatively short & sweet. Others, like Lieb and Povich, lasted forever. But both were fantastic in shaping our national pastime & making it was it is today. There are many, many writers who I love, who are not mentioned here.
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Some of my Favorite Sports Writers:

1. Tim Murnane: 1888-1917: 29 yrs.
2. Sam Crane: 1890-1925: 35 yrs.
3. Francis Richter: 1868-1926: 58 yrs.
4. William B. Hanna: 1884-1930: 26 yrs.
5. Charles S. Dryden: 1893-1921: 28 yrs.
6. Walter S. Barnes: 1889-1939: 50 yrs.
7. John B. Foster: 1888-1941: 53 yrs.
8. Hugh Keogh: 1882-1912: 30 yrs.
9. John B. Sheridan: 1880's-1929: 40 yrs.
10. Henry Edwards: 1898-1942: 44 yrs.
11. Bill Phelon: 1888-1925: 37 yrs.
12. Grant Rice: 1902-1952: 50 yrs.
13. Ferdinand C. Lane: 1910-1937: 27 yrs.
14. Fred Lieb: 1910-1977: 67 yrs.
15. Shirley Povich: 1922-1998: 76 yrs.
16. Red Smith: 1927-1982: 55 yrs.
17. Bill James: 1975-2006: 31 yrs.
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The above list of sports writers is excerted from my Sports Writers Index, which can be viewed in its entirety at:

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Sports%20Writers%20Index.xls on the file called Sports Writers Index

Bill Burgess

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:27 PM
Here is my 2nd attempt to stimulate discussion.
------------------

You, Bill, like to show us results of various surveys of baseball men that showed Cobb being the #1 player of all time. Almost all of those surveys were done prior to 1950, because after that Ruth seemed to carry the polls.

Not so.

Only 4 were prior to 1950.
11 were during the 1950's.
2 were from the 1960's.
6 were from the 1990's.

And as proof, here they are again.
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Historical Polls/Surveys:

As a service to the good guys of Fever, the best-informed fans I've had the good luck to run into, I'm going to dip deep into the storied Bill Burgess musty, dusty File Cabinet of Baseball Lore. I'd like to share some of my personal collection of past surveys/polls. So here is another Historical File. Hope you enjoy it. I have included it into my All-Time All-Star Teams File. Available to all who request it. Just provide a private email address & it will be emailed to that address.


1931 Poll, conducted by the Philadelphia Public Ledger, C. William Duncan. July, 1933;

Cobb 55 points, Wagner 38 points, Ruth 17 points, Lajoie 13, Collins 12, Keeler 7, Simmons 6, Speaker 4, Joe Jackson 3, Sisler 3, Klein 3, Hornsby 2,
Parent 2, Ferguson, Chase & Terry = 1 point.

(Voters: Connie Mack, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Wilbert Robinson, Dan Howley, Bucky Harris, Joe McCarthy, Bill McKechnie, Kid Gleason, Walter Johnson, Jim Burke, Gabby Street)

Tabulation went thusly: 1st place vote = 5 points, 2nd place = 4 votes, 3rd place = 3 points, 2nd place = 2 points, 1st place = 1 point.

1936 --- Original Hall of Fame vote, Feb. 2, 1936, votes counted at the Commissioner's office in Chicago, IL.

226 Total Voters; 169 votes were required for induction. Only the 1st 5 received that many.

Cobb 222, Wagner 215, Ruth 215, Mathewson 205, Johnson 189, Lajoie 146, Speaker 133, Young 111, Hornsby 105, Cochrane 80, Sisler 77, E. Collins 60, J. Collins 58, Alexander 55, Gehrig 51, Bresnahan 47, Keeler 40, Waddell 33, Foxx 21, Walsh 20, Delahanty 17, Traynor 16, Frisch 14, Grove 12, Chase 11, Ross Youngs 10, Terry 9, Kling 8, Lou Criger 7, Evers 6, M. Brown 6, Chance 5, Schalk 4, McGraw 4, Simmons 4, Bender 2, Roush 2, Joe Jackson 2, and one each for Crawford, Baker, Bradley, Elberfeld, Connie Mack, Marquad, and Nap Rucker.

Sporting News staff, Jan. 20, 1938, 17 voters
1B Gehrig 8, Sisler 7, Chase 2
2B Lajoie 8, Collins 4, Hornsby 3, Gehringer2
SS Wagner 17
3B Collins 9, Traynor 8
LF Cobb 17
CF Speaker 14, Jackson 1, Delehanty 1, Clarke 1
RF Ruth 17
C Cochrane 12, Bresnahan 6, Ewing 4, Kling 4, Hartnett 3, Dickey 2, Schalk 2, M. Kelly 1
P Johnson 13, Mathewson 12, Grove 8, Young 4, Alexander 4, Hubbel 4, Waddell 3, Plank 2, Coombs 1

1942 - Sporting News, April 2, 1942, 102 former players, managers.

Cobb 60, Wagner 17, Ruth 11, Hornsby 2, 10 players received 1 vote each: Delahanty, Gehrig, Speaker, DiMaggio, Ott, Sisler, E. Collins, W. Johnson, Mathewson, Jerry Denny.


1950 Christy Walsh's Poll/Survey of 500 Sports Writers;
Connie Mack/7 sports writers Committee Announced July 7, 1952
The "All-America Committee" of sports writers was comprised of: Jack Malaney (Boston Press", Ed Bang (Cleveland News), John E. Wray (St. Louis Post-Dispatch), Christy Walsh (Syndicate Head), Tom Swope (Cincinnati Post), Harry Keck (Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph). Connie Mack also voted.

1B Sisler
2B Collins
SS Wagner
3B Traynor
LF Cobb
CF Speaker
RF Ruth
C Cochrane / Dickey
U IF Frisch, U OF DiMaggio
P Johnson, Mathewson, Young, Alexander
Hubbell, Grove


1950 Sports Writers Poll: Who Was the Greatest Baseball Player Ever?

Ruth 253, Cobb 116, Gehrig 8, Walter Johnson 7, DiMaggio 5, Wagner 2, Mathewson 2.


1952, Feb., Baseball Writers Ass. Of America, 164 spwr.
Big Time Baseball (Magazine), 164 Spwr. & 76 celebrities

1B Gehrig 124, Sisler 56, Terry, Chase, Foxx, Greenberg
2B Hornsby 107, Gehringer, Collins, Lajoie, Frisch, Gordon
SS Wagner 192, Marion, Cronin, Maranville, Rizzuto, Appling, Boudreau 27
3B Traynor 118, Collins 50, Baker, Rolfe, Dykes, Dugan
LF Cobb 224, Jackson
CF DiMaggio 107, Speaker 105
RF Ruth 234, Williams
C Dickey 109, Cochrane 92, Bresnahan 20, Schalk, Hartnett, Kling, Ruel, Schang, Campanella
P Johnson 117, Mathewson 72, Alexander 16, Grove 11, Dean, Hubbell, Pennock, Waddell, Feller


Sport Magazine, May 1951
National League
1B Terry
2B Hornsby
SS Wagner
3B Traynor
LF Musial
CF -
RF Ott
C Hartnett
P Mathewson

Sport Magazine, May 1951
American League
1B Sisler
2B Lajoie
SS Boudreau
3B Collins
LF Cobb
CF DiMaggio
RF Ruth
C Cochrane
P Johnson



Complete Baseball (Magazine), Fall, 1951, AL, voted on by panel of 7 spwr.

1B Sisler, Gehrig, Foxx
2B Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer
SS Boudreau, Appling, Cronin
3B Collins, Baker, Kell
LF Cobb, DiMaggio, Keeler,
CF Speaker, Simmons, J. Jackson
RF Ruth, Simmons, Williams
C Cochrane, Dickey, Schalk
RHP Johnson
LHP Grove


Complete Baseball (Magazine), Summer, 1951, NL, voted on by panel of 7 spwr.

1B Terry, Chance, Bottomley
2B Hornsby, Frisch, Evers
SS Wagner, Marion, Bancroft
3B Traynor, Lindstrom, Hack
LF Musial, Ott, Wilson
CF Waner, Youngs, Hafey
RF Roush, Clarke, Medwick
C Hartnett, Bresnahan, Kling
RHP Alexander, Mathewson, Dean
LHP Hubbell, Rixey, Marquard


Sporting News, Jan. 2, 1957

1B Sisler
2B Hornsby
SS Wagner
3B Collins
LF Cobb
CF Speaker
RF Ruth
C Cochrane
P Mathewson, Young, Johnson, Alexander
Manager: McGraw



Sport Magazine, Oct., 1958, over 120 total votes
National League

1B Terry 89
2B Hornsby
SS Wagner
3B Traynor
LF Musial
CF Waner 54, Mays 46
RF Ott
C Hartnett
P Mathewson, Hubbell 95



Sport Magazine, Sept., 1958, over 120 total votes
American League

1B Gehrig, Sisler
2B Collins
SS Cronin
3B Collins, Baker
LF Cobb 104
CF DiMaggio 48, Speaker 47
RF Ruth 107
C Dickey 59, Cochrane 50
P Johnson, Grove 105
M. McGraw 105, Stengel 53, Mack 35, McCarthy 33, Huggins


Baseball Writers Ass. Of America/Baseball Announcers, July 5, 1958, 238 total votes
All-Star Game's Silver Anniversary:

1B Gehrig 124, Sisler 78
2B Hornsby 125, Collins 60, Gehringer, Lajoie, Frisch
SS Wagner 209, Cronin 7
3B Traynor 199, Collins 23
LF Cobb 211, Williams 40
CF Speaker 111, DiMaggio 52
RF Ruth 228, Musial
C Dickey 105, Cochrane 93, Hartnett, Berra
P Grove 213, Johnson 196, Hubbell 173, Mathewson 135, Young 56, Alexander 36, Feller 29
Manager: McGraw, Stengel
Coaches: Art Fletcher, Chuck Dressen


Sept. 7, 1963: Academy of Sports Editors, a private survey organization which solicits votes from 100 sports editors of papers in the 100,000 plus class.

Greatest Ever Player: AL: Cobb 91%, Ruth 90%, DiMaggio, 63%; W. Johnson 48%, T. Williams 45%, Gehrig 43%, Speaker, 43%, Sisler 20%, E. Collins 18%, Feller 17%.

Greatest Ever Player: NL: Wagner 71%, Musial 70%, Mathewson 57%, Alexander 53%, Spahn 42%, Mays 38%, Terry 23%, Ott 20%, Frisch 15%.


1969 Sporting News Centennial, All-Time Team

1B Gehrig, Sisler, Musial
2B Hornsby, Gehringer, Collins,
SS Wagner, Cronin, Banks
3B Traynor, B. Robinson, J. Robinson
OF Ruth, Cobb, DiMaggio, T. Williams, Speaker, Mays
C Cochrane, Dickey, Campanella
RHP Johnson, Mathewson, Young
LHP Grove, Koufax, Hubbell

Oct., 1992 Sports Illustrated, Steve Wulf's personal team for Sports Illustrated

1B Gehrig
2B Robinson
SS Ripken
3B Schmidt
LF Cobb
CF Mays
RF Ruth
C Cochrane
RHP Mathewson
LHP Spahn
RP Eckersley
M; Stengel

1994, June, Inside Sport Magazine

1. Ruth, 2. Cobb, 3. Mays, 4. Aaron, 5. Williams, 6. W. Johnson, 7. DiMaggio, 8. Gehrig, 9. Foxx, 10. Mathewson, 11. Alexander, 12. Musial, 13. Mantle, 14. Seaver, 15. Feller, 16. Young, 17. Carlton, 18. Rose, 19. Ryan, 20. Koufax


Baseball Digest's All-Time Top 10 by Position - 1994

1B - Gehrig, Foxx, Sisler, Greenberg, McCovey, Terry, Mize, Perez, Cepeda, Murray
2B - Gehringer, Sandbeg, Frisch, Hornsby, Morgan, Collins, J. Robinson, Lajoie,Herman, Mazeroski
SS - Smith, Aparicio, Wagner, Appling, Ripken, Boudreau, Banks, Cronin, Reese, Rizzuto
3B - Schmidt, B. Robinson, Brett, Mathews, Traynor, Nettles, Santo, Hack, Boggs, Kell
LF - Williams, Musial, J. Jackson, Henderson, Bonds, Simmons, Medwick, Yastrzemski, Brock, Goslin
CF - Cobb, Mays, DiMaggio, Mantle, Speaker, Snider, Combs, Roush, Puckett, Blair
RF - Ruth, Aaron, Clemente, F. Robinson, Winfield, Dawson, Kaline, R.Jackson, Ott, Gwynn
C - Bench, Campanella, Berra, J. Gibson, Dickey, Carter, Fisk, Hartnett, Schalk
RHP - Johnson, Seaver, Gibson, Alexander, Mathewson, Feller, Palmer, Marichal, Young, Paige
LHP - Koufax, Carlton, Grove, Spahn, Hubbell, Plank, Ford, Waddell, Gomez ,Kaat
RP - Gossage, Fingers, Marshall, Sutter, Eckersley, Wilhelm, Radatz, Perranoski, Tekulve, Lee Smith

BBWAA - July, 1997 - All-Time All-Star Team (numbers show 1st place votes)

1B - Gehrig 31, Foxx3, Sisler 2, McCovey, Greenberg, Terry, Musial, Murray, McGuire, Thomas
2B - Hornsbby 17, Morgan 6, J. Robinson 6, Gehringer 4, Lajoie 3, Collins 1, Carew, Sandberg
SS - Wagner 23, Ripken 6, O. Smith 5, Banks 1, Boudreau, Appling
3B - Schmidt 21, B. Robinson 6, Mathews 4, Brett 1, Traynor, Rose, Baker, Rosen, Boggs
LF - Williams 32, Musial 4, Rose, Kiner, Henderson, Bonds
CF - Mays 25, Cobb 7, DiMaggio 3, Mantle 1, Speaker
RF - Ruth 31, Aaron 5, F. Robinson 4, Kaline, Clemente, Gwynn
C - Bench 24, Berra 4, Campanella 4, Cochrane 1, Dickey 1, Hartnett, 1 Fisk
RHP - Johnson 9, Young 12, Mathewson 5, Feller 4, Gibson 2, Ryan 2, Seaver 1, Maddux 1, Alexander, Marichal
LHP - Koufax 11, Spahn 11, Grove 8, Carlton 4, Hubbell, 6, Ford 1, Plank 1
RP - Eckersley 16, Fingers 9, L. Smith 4, Wilhelm 3, Gossage 3, Sutter 1, Quisenberry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
October, 1998
Sporting News, 100 Greatest Baseball Players
Red = Negro Leagues; Blue = Pre-1900

1. Ruth
2. Mays
3. Cobb
4. W. Johnson
5. Aaron
6. Gehrig
7. Mathewson
8. T. Williams
9. Hornsby
10. Musial
11. DiMaggio
12. Alexander
13. Wagner
14. Young
15. Foxx
16. Bench
17. Mantle
18. Josh Gibson
19. Satchel Paige
20. Clemente
21. Spahn
22. F. Robinson
23. Grove
24. E. Collins
25. Rose
26. Koufax
27. Speaker
28. Schmidt
29. Lajoie
30. Carlton
31. Gibson
32. Seaver
33. Sisler
34. Bonds
35. Joe Jackson
36. Feller
37. Greenberg
38. Banks
39. Maddux
40. Berra
41. Ryan
42. Ott
43. Simmons
44. J. Robinson
45. Hubbell
46. Gehringer
47. Buck Leonard
48. Reggie Jackson
49. Gwynn
50. Campanella
51. Henderson
52. Whitey Ford
53. Clemens
54. Heilmann
55. Brett
56. McCovey
57. Dickey
58. Brock
59. Terry
60. Morgan
61. Carew
62. Waner
63. Mathews
64. Palmer
65. Cochrane
66. "Cool Papa" Bell
67. Oscar Charleston
68. Plank
69. Killebrew
70. Traynor
71. Marichal
72. Yastrzemski
73. Lefty Gomez
74. Robin Roberts
75. Keeler
76. Kaline
77. Eddie Murray
78. Ripken
79. Medwick
80. Brooks Robinson
81. Stargell
82. Ed Walsh
83. Snider
84. Crawford
85. Dean
86. Puckett
87. Ozzie Smith
88. Frisch
89. Goslin
90. Kiner
91. McGwire
92. Klein
93. Griffey, Jr.
94. Winfield
95. Boggs
96. Rollie Fingers
97. Perry
98. Eckersley
99. Molitor
100. Early Wynn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1999 MLB's All-Century Team; Fan Survey/Poll
Announced October 23, 1999

1B - Gehrig (1,207,992 votes), McGuire (517,181),
2B - J. Robinson (788,116), Hornsby (630,761),
SS - Ripken (669,033 votes), Banks (598,168), Wagner (526,740),
3B - Schmidt (855,654), B. Robinson (761,700),
LF - Williams (1,125,583), Rose (629,742 votes), Musial (571,279),
CF - Mays (1,115,896), DiMaggio (1,054,423), Mantle (988,168), Cobb (777,056) Griffey (645,389),
RF - Ruth (1,1,158,044 votes), Aaron (1,156,782)
C - Bench (1,010,403), Berra (1,010,403),
RHP - Ryan (992,040), Young (867,523), Clemens (601,244), Gibson (582,031), W. Johnson (479,279), Mathewson (249,747)
LEP - Koufax (970,434), Grove (142,169), Spahn (337,215),

In this fan survey, a special panel had to add Wagner, Mathewson,
Grove, Spahn, Musial,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1999, SABR ran a poll, and here are their results.


--Position Players-----------------Pitchers
1. Ruth -----2,743-----------------W. Johnson----591
2. Cobb------1,135-----------------Grove---------139
3. Mays--------964-----------------Mathewson-----118
4. Williams----711-----------------Young---------112
5. Wagner------611-----------------Joss-----------53
6. Gehrig------375-----------------Koufax---------52
7. Aaron-------270-----------------N. Ryan--------37
8. DiMaggio----213-----------------Maddux---------29
9. Mantle------115-----------------Spahn----------26
10. Musial-----102-----------------Alexander------20
11. Hornsby-----82
12. J. Robinson-58
13. Clemente----44
13. J. Jackson--44
15. Rose--------42
16. Bonds-------37
17. Lajoie------36
18. Foxx--------23
19. McGuire-----22
20. Bench-------20
20. Griffey-----20

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have tabulated our 2005 Fever votes. So far, here's what I've got for Fever.


Ruth ------------ 92 supporters (58.85%)
Cobb ------------ 46 supporters (29.29%)
Mays ------------ 11 supporters (07.00%)
Charleston-------- 3 supporters (01.91%)
Williams-----------2 supporters (01.27%)
Wagner-----------2 supporters (01.27%)
Bonds--------------1 supporters (00.63%)
Gehrig-------------1 supporters (00.63%)
---------------------------------------
----------------157 total supporters

So at present, Babe is picking up almost 3 out of 5 Fever members support, as the best, while Ty is only picking up 1 every 4 members.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:28 PM
Attempt 3:
----------------------------------
Hitting Stats:

Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Sisler, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.



Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3
3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1
4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1
5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0
6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0

Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2
4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1
5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0
6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0

Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---8----4----4----2---7----7---3----7----9----9----0---3--12
2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0
4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0
5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0
6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1

Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2
4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0
5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0
6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0

Gehrig------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR--Runs--RBI--TB---OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3
2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6
3rd----------3----0----0----1----3----3----2----2----3----1---0---3--3
4th----------0----1----0----0----1----2----2----0----0----3---0---0--0
5th----------2----1----0----0----1----0----0----1----1----0---0---0--0
6th----------1----0----1----0----1----0----0----1----0----0---0---1--0

Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9
2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1
3rd------------1----2----0---0---2---1----1----4----0---1---0---2--3
4th------------1----1----2---0---0---1----1----0----0---2---0---0--0
5th------------0----4----0---0---0---0----1----0----0---0---0---1--0
6th------------0----0----0---0---3---0----0----0----1---0---0---1--0

Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0
5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0

Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5
4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2
5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0
6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1

Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3
2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4
3rd------------0---1----1---0---1----4----2---2---3---4---0---2--4
4th------------3---0----1---2---2----2----2---2---1---1---2---2--1
5th------------4---0----0---0---2----1----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
6th------------0---3----1---0---2----1----1---1---1---2---2---0--2

Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1
2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4
3rd-------------2---1----0---4---1---0----3----1---2----0---0---0--2
4th-------------0---2----1---0---5---0----1----1---3----0---0---0--0
5th-------------0---0----0---0---2---2----1----2---0----0---0---0--1
6th-------------0---1----1---0---1---1----1----0---0----1---0---0--0

Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5
4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0

Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0
4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1
5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0
6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4

Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6
2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4
3rd----------5---2----1----1---1---4----3----1---0---0----0---2--0
4th----------2---1----0----2---1---1----2----2---2---3----0---2--3
5th----------1---0----0----1---1---1----2----2---0---1----0---2--0
6th----------0---0----2----0---1---0----0----1---1---0----0---0--1

Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0
2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1
3rd----------0---1----0---0----0---2----1---1----7---1---2---2--2
4th----------5---1----1---0----0---2----0---0----2---0---2---2--2
5th----------2---3----0---1----0---0----1---3----2---1---1---1--3
6th----------1---1----0---2----0---1----0---1----1---2---1---1--0

Crawford----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2
3rd----------1----4----0---3---2----0----2----2---0---3---0---0--4
4th----------2----0----1---0---1----1----2----1---2---1---0---0--3
5th----------0----2----0---0---3----2----1----2---2---2---0---0--0
6th----------1----0----2---3---1----0----2----1---1---0---1---0--1

J.Jackson---BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0
2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3
3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2
4th----------2----2----0---1---0---1----4---1---3----2----0---0--1
5th----------0----0----0---0---1---0----0---0---1----2----0---0--3
6th----------0----0----0---0---0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0--0

Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0
2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1
3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1
4th----------2----0----0---0---1---0----0---0----2----2----0---0--1
5th----------1----1----0---2---2---0----1---0----1----1----0---0--2
6th----------0----0----0---1---2---1----2---0----0----0----0---0--1

Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1
2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1
3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2
4th---------1----1----0---1---1---0----0---1---1----1----1---0--1
5th---------1----1----0---0---0---2----0---1---1----0----0---0--0
6th---------0----1----0---0---0---0----1---2---1----1----1---0--1

J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+
led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5
2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2
3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0
4th----------0-----0---0---0---3---2----2---3---0---1----0---4--3
5th----------1-----0---0---0---0---1----0---1---2---2----0---0--1
6th----------0-----0---0---0---0---1----2---1---0---1----0---0--0

Clemente----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1
3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1
4th----------2----1----0---1----0---2----0----0---1---0---0---0--0
5th----------1----1----1---4----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--0
6th----------0----1----2---1----0---0----0----0---3---1---0---0--1

Schmidt-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6
2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1
3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2
4th----------1----0----0---0---1---0----0---1---3---3----0---3--1
5th----------0----0----0---0---0---0----0---4---1---0----0---0--1
6th----------0----0----0---0---1---1----0---0---0---0----0---1--0

Yaz----------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4
2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1
3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0
4th-----------0----2---0---0---1----1----0---2---0---1----0---1--0
5th-----------0----1---0---0---0----1----1---0---0---0----0---2--0
6th-----------0----1---1---0---0----0----0---2---0---0----0---0--1

Anson-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs--RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1
2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2
3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1
4th---------1----0----2--0---1-----2----0---2---1----3----0---2---3
5th---------2----3----0--1---1-----2----0---0---2----1----0---0---3
6th---------0----0----1--0---0-----4----0---3---3----0----0---2---1

Bonds------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9
2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3
3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2
4th---------1----0----0--0---4---0----4---0---2----3----1---0---0
5th---------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---3---1----1----2---0---1
6th---------0----0----0--2---0---3----2---1---0----1----2---0---0

B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1
2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0
3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1
4th-----------2---0----1--0---1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0--0
5th-----------0---1----0--1---0---2----0---1---0---0---0---0--0
6th-----------0---1----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---1---0---1--0

Kiner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0
2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0
3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0
4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2
5th----------1---0----0--0---1---1----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
6th----------0---1----0--0---0---0----1---0---2---0---0---1--0

Killebrew---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0
2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1
3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2
4th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---0---5---0---0---1---5
5th----------1---0----0--0---2----0----0---2---2---2---0---1---2
6th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---1---0---0---0---0---0

Rose--------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0
3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0
4th----------1---1---0--0---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
5th----------1---2---2--2---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
6th----------0---0---0--1---0---0----0---1---0---0---0---1---1

Gwynn------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0
2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0
3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1
4th---------1---0----1--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--1
5th---------1---0----0--1---0----0----0---0----2---0---0---0--0
6th---------0---0----0--0---0----0----1---0----0---0---1---0--1

Kaline-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1
2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2
3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1
4th---------1----1---0--1---0----0----0---2----0---1---1---0---1
5th---------0----0---2--1---0----1----1---0----2---1---0---1---0
6th---------0----1---1--1---0----1----1---1----0---1---1---1---0

Greenberg---BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0
2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4
3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1
4th----------0----1----0--0---0----1---1---0---0---0---0---0--2
5th----------1----1----0--1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0--0
6th----------1----1----0--0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---3--0

Waner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0
3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1
4th----------3---1----2--1---0---1----0---2---1---2---0---1---4
5th----------1---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---0---0---0
6th----------0---2----1--0---0---1----0---1---2---0---0---0---1

R.Jackson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4
2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1
3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0
4th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---1---1---1---0---0---1---1
5th-----------0---0----1--0---2----2---0---0---1---2---0---1---1
6th-----------0---0----0--0---0----0---3---0---2---1---0---0---1

Boggs--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1
2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2
3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0
4th----------1----2----1--0---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
5th----------2----0----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---0---2--0
6th----------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--1

Gehringer---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0
2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0
3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0
4th----------1---0----2--0---0----1----0---2---1---0---0---1--0
5th----------2---3----0--1---0----2----1---0---1---0---0---2--0
6th----------0---0----0--0---0----0----0---4---1---0---0---1--1

Brouthers----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8
2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1
3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2
4th-----------1---1----2---1---0----0---1---1---1---0---0---2--0
5th-----------1---2----0---1---2----1---1---0---1---0---0---0--0
6th-----------0---0----1---0---0----0---1---3---0---0---0---0--0

Delahanty----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4
2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3
3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1
4th-----------2---2----1--0---2---1----0---1---0---1---0---2--1
5th-----------0---1----0--0---1---2----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
6th-----------2---0----0--2---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---2--1

Mize---------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2
2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5
3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2
4th-----------0---0---0--0---1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
5th-----------3---1---0--1---1---1----1---0---2---0---0---1---0
6th-----------0---2---0--0---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---1---0

Brett-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3
2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0
3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0
4th----------0---0----1--1---0----1---0---1---1---1---0---0---0
5th----------0---1----1--1---0----1---1---1---0---1---0---0---2
6th----------2---0----0--2---0----0---1---0---1---2---0---0---0

F.Robinson---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4
2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1
3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1
4th-----------1---0----1--0---3----1---0---3---3---5---1---2--1
5th-----------1---0----0--0---2----2---1---0---0---1---0---1--7
6th-----------2---1----2--0---1----1---0---1---0---1---1---0--1

Ashburn-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0
2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0
3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0
4th----------0---0----1--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---1---0---0
5th----------0---1----1--3---0---2----0---0---1---0---2---1---1
6th----------2---3----0--0---0---2----0---0---0---0---2---1---0

Sisler-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0
2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1
3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
4th-----------2---3----1--0---0---1----1---1---0---2---0---0--1
5th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---1---0--1
6th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----2---0---1---0---1---0--1

Snider------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1
2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1
3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2
4th----------1----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---1---0
5th----------1----0---0--0---0----0---0---3---0---1---1---1---0
6th----------0----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---1---1---1

Simmons-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0
3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2
4th----------3---3----0--0---1----0---1---1---0---0---0---0--1
5th----------0---0----0--0---3----0---2---1---0---2---0---0--1
6th----------0---0----0--1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0---0--1

Banks--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0
2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1
3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0
4th-----------0---1----1--0---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--1
5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----1---0---0---2---0---0--2
6th-----------1---0----0--0---1---0----1---1---0---0---0---0--0

Bench------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1
3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0
4th---------0---0----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---2---0---0--0
5th---------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
6th---------0---0----1--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0--0

Molitor-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0
3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1
4th----------1---2----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---2---0--0
5th----------2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
6th----------3---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---0--1

Terry--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0
3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0
4th-----------2---1----0--2---1---0----0---2---1---0---0---0--2
5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----2---0---2---1---0---0--1
6th-----------1---0----0--0---0---2----1---0---0---0---0---0--0

Keeler-----BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1
3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0
4th---------3----2----0--1---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--1
5th---------1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--0
6th---------1----0----0--1---0----1---0---2---1---0---0---0--0

Henderson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB-BB--OPS+
led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1
2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1
3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0
4th-----------2---0----0--0---0----3---0---0---1---0----2--5---0
5th-----------0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---2---0----1--0---0
6th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---0---1---1---0----2--1---0

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:37 PM
Attempt #4:
----------------------
Links to Bill Burgess' work:

My overall webpage:
http://www.baseballguru.com//bburgess
-------------

My personal website: Reference & Research of Sports & Entertainment figures:
http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Reference%20and%20Research.xls
------------------------

Negro Leagues: Birth/Death Dates of some prominent Negro L. players

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Negro+Leagues.xls
-----------------------

Sports Writers Index: Over 600 sports writers;

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Sports%20Writers%20Index.xls
----------------------------------
Assessing Ty: Deposing the witnesses. What Ty's peers actually said.

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Assessing+Ty.xls
--------------------------

Baseball Familes:

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Baseball+Families.xls
---------------------------------

All-Star All-Star Teams: 130 Prominent BB Figures give their teams.

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/All-Time+All-Star+Teams.xls
-----------------------------------

Cobb, Ruth, Wagner Supporters:

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Cobb%2C%20Ruth%2C%20Wagner%20supporters.xls
---------------------------

Early Player Profiles:

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/Sisler%2C+Ewing%2CMcAleer%2CBergen%2CBennett%2CArc her%2CLange.xls
-----------------------------------

Ty Cobb's World Series:

http://bluestreak.pbwiki.com/f/World+Series.xls

AstrosFan
06-28-2006, 07:39 PM
Hey Bill:

I'm just about finished with Harold Seymour's book, "Baseball: The Early Years", and I noticed he spells Ed Delahanty's last name Delehanty. Was this a common error back then, and if so, when was the mistake realized?

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:40 PM
Historical Player Salaries:

All salaries are express in thousands; all figures under a person's name apply to that person until another name appears. The corresponding year appears at the collumn at the left.



Wagner
1898 1,5
1899 Lajoie
1900 6,0 Matty 2,1
1901 8,0 1,5 4,2
1902 8,0 3,0 5 McGraw
1903 5,0 5 11
1904 5 11
1905 Cobb 9,0 5 11 1,8-Bobby Lowe 2,7-S.Crawford
1906 1,8 W.Johnson 5 15 6,5-Bobby Wallace 3,0
1907 2,4 2,7 5 15
1908 4,8 3,5 10 15 4,0
1909 4,8 4,5 9 10 18
1910 9,0 7,0 9 10 18 Alexander
1911 9,0 7,0 M.Brown 9 10 18 Chase 1,5 Wheat
1912 9,0 7,0 7,0 Speaker 9 10 18 6 5,0 2,0 3,3
1913 12,0 12 9,0 9 10 30 D.Lewis 5,0 Hooper
1914 15,0 Ruth 12,5 Collins 18 pkg. 12,0 10 30 5 3,5 5
1915 20 3,5 16 15 18 pkg. Hornsby 10 30 Roush 5 7,5 3,5 5
1916 20 3,5 16 15 15 2,0 10 30 5,0 5 7,5 3,5 5 6,0
1917 20 5 16 15 15 3,0 40 Huggins 7,5 12,5 6,8
1918 20 7 16 15 15 4,0 40 12,5 8,0
1919 20 10 16 15 18 4,0 40 10 12,5 9
1920 20 20 16 5,0 40 Heilmann 10 Landis
1921 35 p/m 30 11 40 7,5 13,75 50,0
1922 35 p/m 52 18,5 Gehrig 50 8,8 12.5 13,75 50,0
1923 35 p/m 52 18,5 3,5 50 10,0 R.Youngs 13,75 Frisch Gehringer 50,0
1924 38 p/m 52 16-20 15-20 30? 18,5 3,0 50 19,0 16 15-20 10,0 17,5 3,5r 50,0
1925 50 p/m 52 20 40 p/m 33,3 3,75 50 16 Foxx 10,0 15,0 50,0
1926 50 p/m 52 20 35 33,3 6,5 50 Pennock 2 16,6-Dazzy Vance 50,0
1927 105* 70 20 20 35? 37 8,0 50 23,3 37,5 17,5 2,5 16,6 65,0
1928 35 70 retired 30? 40,6 25 50 23,3 8,0-O'Doul 3 16,6 65,0
1929 70 25-manager 40 25 23,3 8,5 5 65,0
1930 80 25-manager 40 25 held out 22,6-H.Wilson 20 Simmons 25,0 65,0
1931 80 25-manager 40 25 70 15,0 33 25-Terry 16,6 33,33 22,5 50,0
1932 75 40 25 70 16,5 15 16,6 33,33
1933 52 15 23 Klein Cochrane Hubbell 16,6 B.Rickey 33,33 30
1934 36,696 15 23 30 30,0 17,5 27,5 18 39,470 20
1935 DiMaggio 35 24 18 31 17,289 30,0 20 44,919 35 Greenberg
1936 7,5 20 24 18,33 31 45 30 43,907 16,5 25
1937 15 25 18,33 36 22,5 30 42,340 18,5
1938 25 Williams 40 5,0 36
1939 27,5 6,5 40 8,0 36
1940 32,5 12 55
1941 37,5 20
1942 43,75 35 9,0
1943 WWII military
1944 WWII military
1945 WWII military 6,0 Reiser
1946 43,75 50 12,5
1947 43,75 75 100
1948 70 90 30-Kiner
1949 100 100 J.Robinson Stengel 49,470
1950 100 100 65 35 18 50
1951 100 100 20manager 65
1952 100 40 10,36
1953 100 20,36
1954 100 18
1955 100 60
1956 100 61
1957 100 Musial 62
1958 125 100
1959 125
1960 90
1961

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:43 PM
Hey Bill:

I'm just about finished with Harold Seymour's book, "Baseball: The Early Years", and I noticed he spells Ed Delahanty's last name Delehanty. Was this a common error back then, and if so, when was the mistake realized?
I don't know. I always seen it spelled with an a. Total Baseball, all the books I've seen have always spelled it that way.

Bill

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:52 PM
Useful Reference Resources:

Looking for used Baseball Books? Here are some leads.
www.Bookfinder.com Massive website includes other massive databases. Half.com, abebooks, amazon, Alibris, viabiblio, bookavenue, countless others.
www.half.com go to Ebay, then click onto the icon for half.com in the column on the left, then click onto books,
Bobby Plapinger P.O. Box 1062, Ashland, OR 97520, 541-488-1220 baseballbooks@opendoor.com
Wayne Greene PO Box 479, Cathedral Station, NY, NY 10025 212-662-2104 greensparks@worldnet.att.net
Archer's Used & Rare Books 330 North Willow St., Kent, Ohio, 44240-2564 330-346-0926 archers@core.com www.archersbooks.com
Georgetown Bookshop 4710 Bethhesda Ave., Bethesda, MD 20814 301-907-6923 andym108@yahoo.com To sell ONLY, call 1-800-225,6150
Willis Monie Books 139 Main St., Cooperstown, NY 13326 800-322-2995 mail@wilmonie.com www.wilmonie.com alternate tel. # 607-547-7128

Extremely Useful Reference Resources
1. Social Security Death Index, 1937-present, only really good from 1970 on. It's free online at roots.com and ancestry.com
2. New York Times Obituaries Index; There are 2 volumes, 1851-1969 and 1970-79. These 2 reference books are sometimes hard to acquire. All libraries have them.
3. Biography and Genealogy Master Index; This is an online index, created by Gale. You can usually access it through a city library. This is one amazing database. Gale company has indexed 12.7 million biographical sketches in more than 3,400 reference books, such as Who's Who, Biographical Dictionaries, Biographical Encyclopedias, etc.
4. Biography Resource Center, - Similar to above. Access through library.
5. Ancestry.com, Has many dozens of useful databases, such as all census' up through 1930.
6. Google.com; In addition to its search engine, which is the best to use, try its Google Answers. They have hired hundreds of independent contractors to personally search for your requests, at any price from $1. to $100. You set the price.
7. SABR Bulletin's Research Needs, as well as their National Pastime, and Baseball Research Journal
8. The Sporting News online, available via Paper of Record, for $99./yr.; SABR makes this database available to it's members for $49./yr.
9. Proquest; Has packaged into one database, NY Times (1851-2001), Washington Post (1877-1988), LA Times (1881-1984), Chicago Tribune (1847-1984), Boston Globe (1872-?), Atlanta Constitution (1868-?) with an excellent & fast search engine.

SABR has made available to it's members the Proquest Database, for free, as a benefit of membership, which now is $50./yr.

Various BB Books; some of the most usuful have been:
Reference
Total Baseball; various editors have been: John Thorn, Pete Paler (stats), Michael Gershman, David Pietrusza, Phil Birnbaum Bill Deane; This must be the most important, comprehensive must-have reference book on one's baseball bookshelf. While the 8th ed. was a major disappointment, it still is a must have item. An encyclpedia, full statistical record book, and is chock full of biographical data. 1st. Ed. 1989, published by Warner Books, Hardcover, D/J, over 2,200 pp., ISBN: 0-446-51389-X, 11 x 8.25, priced $49.95.
1st. ed. Is particularly useful, in that it includes for pitchers: SO/g., BB/g., H/g., and gives home/away breakdowns for 27 famous hitters (pp. 2200-2213); Aaron, Clemente, Cobb, E. Collins, Crawford, DiMaggio, Foxx, Gehrig, Hornsby, R. Jackson, Kaline, Killebrew, Klein, Lajoie, Mantle, Mays, Morgan, Musial, Ott, F. Robinson, Rose, Ruth, Schmidt, Speaker, Wagner, T. Williams, Yastrzemski.

Baseball: A Comprehensive Bibliography, Compiled by Myron J. Smith, Jr., 1986, published by McFarland. This covers from 1980 - Jan. 31, 1985. HC, Green cloth, 915 pp., ISBN: 0-89950-222-9. All text, 9.25 x 6.25,
The 1st supplement covers from 1985 - May, 1992.
The 2nd supplement (Apr.1 1998) covers June, 1992 - Dec., 1997. 310 pp., ISBN: 0-7864-9531-7, all text, 9.25 x 6.25,


Biographical
Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia, editors of Total Baseball, 2000; Total Sports Publishing, HB, 1298 pp., ISBN: 1-892129-34-5. 11 x 8.75, originally priced $49.94, 2,000 biographies, from brief to 4.5 pp.

The Ballplayers, ed. Mike Shatzkin, 1990, Published William Morrow & Co.,Inc, HB, 1,230 pp., ISBN: 0-87795-984-6, 11 x 8.5, original price: $39.95, 6,000 entries, over-whelmingly on people. b/w photos

New Biographical History of Baseball, Donald Dewey & Nicholas Acocella, 2002, Published Triumph Books, HC, 474 pp., ISBN: 1-57243-470-8, b/w photos, 9.25 x 7.25, originally $28.95. Over 1,500 entries, prominent BB figures, no personal data.

Who's Who in Professional Baseball, Gene Karst & Martin J. Jones, Jr., 1973, Published Arlington House, HC, 919 pp., ISBN: 0-87000-220-1, no photos, all text, 9.5 x 6.5, originally $12.95. Over 1,500 brief bios, brief peraonnal data.

The Baseball Necrology, by Bill Lee, 2003, Published McFarland, HC, 517 pp., ISBN: 0-7864-1539-8. All text, 10.5 x 7.25, Post-BB lives & deaths of over 7,600 ML players and other BB figures.

Baseball's Best: The Hall of Fame Gallery, by Martin Appel (text) and Burt Goldblatt (photos), 1980 updated, Published McGraw-Hill Book Co., HB, 439 pp., INSB:0-07-0021-48-1, b/w photos, originally $24.95. One of the best biographical books ever. Chronological review of each Hall of Famer's career, and brief notes on post-career. Not overblown hero-worship.

Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, Phenon Press, HB, D/C, 458 pp., ISBN: 0-9645439-07. b/w photos, 4.25 x 6.25, originally $24.95. One of the most comprehensive and best sports biographies ever written. This bio has everything. It has an acknowledgments, Introduction, Foreword, 3 Appendixs, Notes, Bibliography, Index. Includes all the colorful players of the era. Cobb, Jackson, Ruth, Speaker, Collins, Griffith, Milan, etc. Author is Walter's grandson, who took many years to lovingly and laboriously, using the 30 family scrapbooks, brought this story to fruition. Enriched with delicious period flavor. Works at all levels. Must-have. A book worthy of it's world-class subject.

My Life in Baseball - the True Record, Ty Cobb with Al Stump, Sept., 1961, Doubleday & Co., HB, 283 pp., INSB: b/w photos, 8.5 x 5.5, Originally $4.50, Ty Cobb gives his side of the many fights/conflicts with which he was involved. Great photos, priceless BB tips, with which one could improve their game. Unapolagetic, tough portrait of a one-of-a-kind performer. Must read by Ty fans.

Cobb, by Al Stump, 1994, Algonquin Books, HB, 436 pp., ISBN: 0-945575-64-5, b/w photos, 9.25 x 6.25, Originally $24.95. 33 yrs. Earlier Stump had felt, that since Cobb had had a guarantee final say from Doubleday, the book was strictly Cobb's, and had been too self-serving for his taste. This book had all the deleted material Stump had hoped to put in the original. This IS a blood & thunder hell-raiser book. But still it was true to its subject. No white-wash here, as Stump had feared his 1st pass had ended up as. Must-read for Cobb fans as I am. Doesn't stab Cobb in back. But movie based on this book was worthless as garbage. Oozes cool period flavor.

Ty Cobb, by Charles Comer Alexander, 1984, Oxford University Press, PB, 272 pp., ISBN: 0-19-503414-7, b/w photos, 8 x 5.25, Originaly $7.95. Most neutral, even-handed, impartial, and academicly scholarly, and best researched of all the Cobb books. It took a professor to accomplish it. Began his research Sept., 1980, began writing Lavor day, 1982, and finished writing Feb., 1983. Must-have for Cobb fans. Charts a faultless course by avoiding golly-gee hero-worshiping or anti-Cobb bashing of his "dark side." Totally factual.

Historical:
The History of Baseball: It's great players, teams and managers, ed. by Allison Danzig & Joe Reichler, 1959, Published Prentice-Hall, INC., HC, 412, lots b/w photos, 11 x 8, Covered many, various aspects of BB. Quotes by Granny Rice abound.

The Baseball Story, by Fred Lieb, 1950, Published Van Rees Press, HB, 335 pp., Wonderful, fantastic b/w photos, 8.25 x 5.75, Very excellent exploration of BB's pre -1900 era, as well as all the others.

Balldom, by George Leonard Moreland, 1914, published Balldom Publishing Co., HB, 304 pp., ISBN: on re-publishing in 1989 by Horton Publishing Co., 0-944786-46-4, all text, 7.5 x 5, originally $1.00. Wonderful early history of baseball.

Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, by Bill James, 1985,1988, Oct., 2001, Villard Books, PB, 723 pp. in '88 revised, and 998 in his new revised Abstract, ISBN of his revised abstract: 0-684-80697-5. Some b/w photos, not oodles. 9.5 x 7.75, originally $45. Has a few flaws. Bill has a huge personal problem with Ty Cobb, which causes him to under-rate him to only 5th greatest. But despite this, is a must-have book on your shelf. Rates all positions to 100th best, plus top 100 Greatest, in order.

Unique, One of a Kind Items:
Baseball's Golden Age: The Photographs of Charles M. Conlon, by Neal McCabe and Constance McCabe, 1993, Published by The Sporting News, HB, 198 pp., INSB: 0-8109-3130-3. Originally $35. Book of the greatest photos ever taken from 1905-43. Series of photos of most of famous players of that day, often of them young, then as vet player. As if taken today. Glorious b/w.

Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official Major League Baseball Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991,1993, Published Sterling, PB, 278 pp., ISBN: 0-8069-8490-2, 12 x 9, originally $19.95. Color drawing of all ML uniforms of the century. I've spent countless hours of pleasure, going through my BB books, dating photos using the uniforms in this book to guide me. Wonderful, unique addition.

Who's Who in Major League Baseball, 1933, compiled by editor-in-chief Harold (Speed) Johnson, and Associate Editor Harry Neily, Published Buxton Publishing Co., HC, Red cloth cover, 544 pp., b/w photos, 11.5 x 8.75. This amazing book contains the most amazing, dignified photos of famous players like Wagner, Ruth, plus umpires, manager, coaches, trainers, owners, statisticians, radio announcers, and team officials, and most rareof all, sports writers. It gives wallet photos & brief bios of 95 of the most prominent sports writers, with dates of birth, newspaper chronology of the careers. Extremely rare! Usually priced today from $250-500.

Baseball Extra: A newpaper history of the glorious game from its beginnings to the present. From the Eric C. Caren Collection, 2000, Published Castle books, HB, 438 pp., ISBN: 0-7858-1188-5. 15 x 11. Originally $29.95. Large coffee table style book. It contains the 1st page sports pages of various of the great newspapers, from 1857-1999.

Those books which are indispensible for the bookshelf must include:
Total Baseball,
Bill James Historical Abstracts,
Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia,
Baseball's Best: The Hall of Fame Gallery, by Martin Appel (text)

Other resources which are indispensible must include membership in SABR, and subscriptions to both Proquest and Sporting News, online. SABR's old publications, such as The National Pastime and SABR Research Journal are highly invaluable. Baseball Reference is another website which is an invaluable resource statistically.

Some Useful Baseball Websites:
1. Baseball Index
2. Baseball Reference
3. Deadball Era (Frank Russo)


May this help those in need.

Bill Burgess
06-28-2006, 07:59 PM
My slate of candidates for Best Seasons Ever for a Pitcher:


----Name---------Year------W-L------ShO---ERA+--Inn.--WS---TPR
1. Johnson ----- 1913------36-7------11---258---346---54---8.0
2. Alexander --- 1915------31-10---- 12---225---376---43---7.0
3. Koufax ------ 1965------26-8-------8---160---336---33---4.8
4. Gibson -------1968------22-9------13---258---305---36---7.0
5. Brown ------- 1906------26-6------10---254---277---35---4.9
6. Matty ------- 1909------25-6-------8---223---275---34---5.8
7. Joss -------- 1908------24-11------9---206---325---35---5.0
8. Wood -------- 1912------34-5------10---178---344---44---6.9
9. Coombs ------ 1910------31-9------13---182---353---37---4.2
10. McGinnity -- 1904------35-8-------9---169---408---42---4.3

I give high precedence to ERA+, in conjuction with W-L, Shutouts, and a variety of other stats. Some of the flashier ERA+ seasons of modern vintage by Maddux/Martinez came with too few inninings pitched to make my cut. Sorry about that. I like to see at least 250 innings pitched or so. I have no hard rules.

My award winner, Walter Johnson's 1913 campaign led his league in:
Wins, W-L%, shutouts, CG, innings, SO, ERA, ERA+, Total Baseball's RATIO, Opponents BA, Opponents on-base ave., pitching runs+, wins shares, total pitching wins, fewest hits/g, fewest BB/g, SO/g, Total Baseball's starter runs, adjusted starter runs, total pitcher index.

In other words, Walter swept the boards that year. And he did it while pitching 346 innings. He also won the MVP award. A true evergreen, classic, vintage Year For the Ages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greatest Pitching Seasons:

I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc. This list is in order of sequence according to ERA+.

For convenience, I high-lighted in red the post 1920 seasons for us, for easy reference.


------Name----------yr.---ERA+--Inn.---W-L---ShO--CG-Ratio*-WS*-TPR--PCA

Pedro Martinez-----2000---285---217---18-6----7----4--.617--29--7.3
Greg Maddux--------1995---259---209---19-2---10----3--.609--30--6.2
Walter Johnson-----1913---258---346---36-7---11---29--.667--54--8.0
Bob Gibson---------1968---258---305---22-9---13---28--.771--36--7.0
Mordecai Brown-----1906---253---277---26-6---10---27--.812--35--4.9
Dwight Gooden------1985---226---276---24-4----8---16--.791--33--7.0
Grover Alexander---1915---224---376---31-10--12---36--.757--43--7.0
Christy Mathewson--1909---223---275---25-6----8---26--.735--34--5.8
Lefty Grove--------1931---218---289---31-4----4---27--.787--42--6.3
Cy Young-----------1901---217---371---33-10---5---38--.768--41--5.7
Ron Guidry---------1978---208---273---25-3----9---16--.759--31--5.7
Addie Joss---------1908---205---325---24-11---9---29--.741--35--5.0
Jack Taylor--------1902---203---324---22-11--10---33--.830--32--5.1
Dean Chance--------1964---199---278---20-9---11---15--.825--32--4.6
Spud Chandler------1943---197---253---20-4----5---20--.810--29--5.0
Hal Newhouser------1945---194---313---25-9----8---29--.864--36--6.6
Mort Cooper--------1942---193---279---22-7---10---22--.811--29--5.0
Carl Hubbell-------1933---193---309---23-12--10---22--.820--33--5.1
Tom Seaver---------1971---193---286---20-10---4---21--.795--32--5.7
Randy Johnson------2002---190---260---24-5----8----4--.827--29--6.3
Ed Walsh-----------1910---189---369---18-20---7---33--.733--36--5.8
Warren Spahn-------1953---187---266---23-7----5---24--.805--31--5.3
Lefty Gomez--------1934---185---281---26-5----6---25--.803--31--4.3
Luis Tiant---------1968---185---258---21-0----9---19--.779--28--3.6
Vida Blue----------1971---183---312---24-8----8---24--.787--30--4.8
Jack Coombs--------1910---182---353---31-9---13---35--.886--37--4.2
Steve Carlton------1972---182---346---27-10---8---30--.817--40--6.8
Rube Waddell-------1905---180---328---26-11---7---27--.882--35--5.7
Orvie Overall------1909---179---285---20-11---9---23--.845--30--4.5
Joe Wood-----------1912---178---344---34-5---10---35--.816--44--6.9
Joe McGinnity------1904---178---408---35-8----9---38--.836--42--4.3
Dazzy Vance--------1924---176---309---28-6----3---30--.798--36--6.0
Dizzy Dean---------1934---170---324---30-7----3---29--.867--37--5.3
Stan Coveleski-----1917---167---298---19-14---9---24--.820--29--2.4
Roger Clemens------1986---166---254---24-4----1---10--.762--29--4.9
Jack Chesbro-------1904---158---454---41-12---6---48--.854--53--4.6
Denny McLain-------1968---157---336---31-6----6---28--.812--33--4.4
Sandy Koufax-------1965---156---335---26-8----8---27--.728--33--4.8
Dave McNally-------1968---154---273---22-10---5---18--.782--26--3.2
Orel Hershiser-----1988---148---267---23-8----8---15--.865--25--3.7
Bob Feller---------1946---145---371---26-15--10---36--.887--32--4.7
George Uhle--------1926---143---318---27-11---3---32--.934--32--3.9
Robin Roberts------1952---141---330---28-7----3---30--.814--32--3.7
Urban Shocker------1922---140---348---24-17---2---29--.873--29--3.7
Don Newcombe-------1956---130---268---27-7----5---18--.793--27--3.1
Nolan Ryan---------1972---120---284---19-16---9---20--.948--24--2.0
Whitey Ford--------1961---117---283---25-4----3---11--.882--22--0.9


*ratio = Relative Onbase Ave.; Opponent's Onbase Ave / L. onbase ave.
WS = Bill James' Win Shares
TPR = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/COLOR]

Some of the Greatest Hitting Seasons Ever: Listed according to PCA.



----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
Ruth, 1920-------2.08----1.47-----1.27---256---16--28.83---51--10.0
Ruth,1921--------2.07----1.43-----1.29---239---16--24.79---53---9.8
Mantle,1956------1.78----1.36-----1.35---210---18--22.96---49---8.8
Ruth, 1923-------1.96----1.55-----1.39---239---16--22.2----55--11.2
Williams, 1941---1.88----1.61-----1.52---235---16--22.1----42---8.8
Bonds, 2004------1.83----1.76-----1.32---260---09--21.8----53--12.5
Bonds, 2001------2.04 ---1.57-----1.27---262---09--20.82---54--12.2
Ruth, 1924-------1.86----1.43-----1.30---220---16--20.8----45---8.5
Cobb,1911--------1.73----1.38-----1.53---196---22--20.74---47---6.4
Bonds, 2002------1.96----1.77-----1.45---275---09--20.6----49--11.2
Hornsby,1922-----1.78----1.31-----1.37---207---23--20.37---42---9.2
Musial,1948------1.83----1.35-----1.44---200---20--20.30---46---7.3
Cobb, 1917-------1.78----1.39-----1.54---209---16--19.7----46---8.4
Lajoie, 1901-----1.53----1.38-----1.47---200---23--18.94---42---7.4
Foxx,1932--------1.85----1.35-----1.31---205---14--18.54---40---7.2
Wagner,1908------1.76----1.38-----1.48---205---19--18.42---59--10.2
Speaker, 1912----1.44----1.39-----1.54---188---06--18.13---51---7.1
Medwick, 1937----1.37----1.24-----1.42---180---24--17.47---40---5.2
Cash, 1961-------1.41----1.46-----1.37---201---07--17.30---42---8.3
T.Williams,1949--1.71----1.38-----1.30---192---19--17.24---40---6.6
Gehrig,1927------1.91----1.34-----1.30---221---07--17.17---44---9.1
J.Jackson, 1911--1.49----1.38-----1.49---193---00--17.13---39---6.8
Yaz,1967---------1.77----1.38-----1.38---195---21--16.81---42---6.5
F.Robinson, 1966-1.28----1.31-----1.68---199---18--16.48---41---6.8
H.Duffy, 1894----1.42----1.26-----1.58---177---20--16.44---33---4.0
Delahanty, 1899--1.44----1.33-----1.59---189---16--16.36---41---5.4
Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
Wagner, 1900-----1.36----1.28-----1.56---175---10--16.05---34---4.3
Hack Wilson,1930-1.61----1.26-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
Carew, 1977------1.45----1.35-----1.40---178---10--15.74---37---6.3
Vaughan, 1935----1.38----1.48-----1.31---190---09--15.72---39---7.6
Kiner, 1951------1.18----1.31-----1.60---184---12--15.64---35---5.1
Sisler,1920------1.63----1.29-----1.43---181---08--15.40---33---7.6
Al Rosen, 1953---1.28----1.23-----1.60---180---14--15.33---42---6.5
Burkett, 1901----1.42----1.35-----1.49---181---11--15.21---38---5.8
Aaron, 1959------1.36----1.24-----1.59---181---10--15.21---38---7.2
Mize, 1937-------1.33----1.24-----1.55---172---00--14.95---34---3.3
Terry, 1930------1.32----1.25-----1.38---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
Klein,1930-------1.53----1.21-----1.27---159---06--14.17---28---5.6
Sisler, 1922-----1.49----1.34-----1.47---170---13--14.08---29---5.2
Zimmerman, 1912--1.36----1.19-----1.54---169---16--13.16---34---5.0
Ott, 1929--------1.11----1.22-----1.49---165---02--13.15---31---5.8
Simmons,1930-----1.68----1.20-----1.32---176---07--12.94---36---4.5
Averill, 1936----1.30----1.16-----1.48---159---04--12.86---27---4.0
DiMaggio,1937----1.62----1.16-----1.32---168---07--12.78---39---5.9
Clemente, 1967---1.13----1.24-----1.52---170---07--12.59---35---5.6
Brett, 1980------1.44----1.38-----1.66---202---07--12.43---36---7.4
Greenberg, 1937--1.19----1.22-----1.60---172---04--12.38---33---5.5
Snider, 1954-----1.28----1.20-----1.58---170---03--12.33---39---4.2
J.Robinson, 1949-1.30----1.23-----1.35---159---06--12.22---36---6.5
Heilmann, 1921---1.34----1.24-----1.51---167---07--12.13---28---3.4
Mays, 1954-------1.30----1.22-----1.63---175---08--12.11---40---6.8
Rose, 1969-------1.39----1.27-----1.38---158---07--11.94---37---3.7
B.Williams, 1970-1.24----1.10-----1.49---147---07--11.88---29---3.5
O'Doul, 1929-----1.35----1.30-----1.46---159---07--11.83---31---5.1
T.Davis, 1962----1.31----1.13-----1.34---148---11--11.70---36---3.6
Crawford, 1911---1.38----1.23-----1.46---163---00--11.49---32---2.2
Keeler, 1897-----1.42----1.28-----1.49---164---07--11.28---32---4.0
Manush, 1928-----1.34----1.15-----1.44---154---00--11.08---35---2.9
Lindstrom, 1930--1.25----1.07-----1.28---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
Z.Wheat, 1924----1.32----1.25-----1.40---163---00--10.67---35---4.5
Z.Wheat, 1925----1.22----1.13-----1.30---142---00--10.61---27---2.5
P.Waner, 1927----1.27----1.22-----1.33---155---13--10.45---36---3.4
Gehringer, 1936--1.22----1.15-----1.31---142---02--10.37---34---5.9
Reiser, 1941-----1.32----1.18-----1.54---165---13--10.22---34---4.7
Colavito, 1961---1.13----1.17-----1.46---157---01--10.10---33---4.0
J.Rice, 1978-----1.20----1.08-----1.55---158---17--10.08---36---4.0
KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.13----1.15-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
Trosky, 1936-----1.14----1.01-----1.46---148---04---9.66---21---1.9
Oliva, 1964------1.30----1.10-----1.45---150---12---9.43---27---3.2
K.Williams, 1922-1.16----1.13-----1.57---164---08---8.95---30---4.3
J.Tobin, 1921----1.20----1.05-----1.19---119---02---8.24---25---0.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Away Games Only, indexed to League Averages.

--------------------Rel.SLG-------Rel.OBP---------Rel.BA.
Musial,1948----------2.03----------1.43------------1.59
Gehrig,1927----------2.01----------1.39------------1.38
Ruth,1921------------1.89----------1.34------------1.21
Hornsby,1922---------1.73----------1.31------------1.36
Wagner,1908----------1.71---------no-data----------1.38
DiMaggio,1937------- 1.71----------1.11------------1.23
Mantle,1956----------1.68----------1.33------------1.28
Foxx,1932------------1.68----------1.22------------1.23
Cobb,1911----------- 1.67----------1.36------------1.54
Yaz,1967-------------1.61----------1.34------------1.36
T.Williams,1949------1.56----------1.32------------1.27
Klein,1930-----------1.45----------1.18------------1.19
Sisler,1920----------1.29----------1.13------------1.20

Wilson,1930---------no-data-------no-data----------no-data
Simmons,1930--------no-data-------no-data----------no-data
Babe Herman,1930----no-data-------no-data----------no-data
Bonds, 2001---------no data-------no data----------no data
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name, yr.-----------home HRs-----away HRs------home Slg-----away slg.
Ruth, 1920------------29-------------25----------.985----------.736
Ruth, 1921------------32-------------27----------.929----------.772
Ruth, 1923------------19-------------22----------.805----------.728
Gehrig, 1927----------24-------------23----------.722----------.805
Hornsby, 1922---------24-------------18----------.741----------.703
Sisler, 1920----------15--------------4----------.760----------.503
DiMaggio, 1937--------19-------------27----------.631----------.711
Klein, 1930-----------26-------------14----------.794----------.578
Foxx, 1932------------31-------------27----------.820----------.682
Mantle, 1956----------27-------------25----------.746----------.664
Cobb, 1911-------------5--------------3----------.640----------.602
Williams, 1949--------23-------------20----------.710----------.595
Ott, 1929-------------20-------------22----------.575----------.692
Musial, 1948----------16-------------23----------.618----------.780

The home/away splits were located at Total Baseball, Vol. 1, ed. by John Thorn & Pete Palmer with David Reuther, 1989, pp. 2200-2213.

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My Candidates for Most Impressive Hitting Peak Ever:

1. Barry Bonds - 2001-2004,---------244 OPS+

2. Babe Ruth - 1920-1924,-----------221 OPS+

3. Ted Williams - 1942-1949,--------209 OPS+

4. Rogers Hornsby - 1921-1925,------202 OPS+

5. Ty Cobb - 1909-1913,-------------197 OPS+

6. Lou Gehrig - 1927-1934,----------193 OPS+

7. Mickey Mantle - 1956-1962,-------191 OPS+

8. Honus Wagner - 1905-1909,--------187 OPS+

9. Stan Musial - 1943-1948,---------174 OPS+
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Most Impressive Pitcher's Peaks:

1. Pedro Martinez, 1997-2003,-------215 ERA+

2. Walter Johnson, 1910-1914,-------204 ERA+

3. Roger Clemens, 1986-1992,--------164 ERA+

4. Sandy Koufax, 1961-1966,---------161 ERA+

5. Ed Walsh, 1907-1912,-------------160 ERA+

6. Christy Mathewson, 1903-1909,----155 ERA+

7. Grover Alexander, 1911-1917,-----150 ERA+

8. Rube Waddell, 1902-1908,---------145 ERA+


Bill Burgess

AstrosFan
06-28-2006, 09:34 PM
"After 136 pitches, Floyd Bevens, of the Yankees, had the only no-hit ball game ever played in a World Series. But he threw 137 and lost, 3 to 2."

This is probably my favorite Red Smith line. He was the first writer I ever saw put a game in terms of pitches thrown, rather than innings played, as is common. I think that's highly creative. It simplifies it to, if Bevens's game had ended after 136, he would be immortalized, but he threw one more pitch, and became just another World Series game loser.

Roger Kahn's book, "The Head Game", has a piece on Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn, and his magnificent 1884 season. In discussing Radbourn, Kahn notes that a player observed years later that many of this pitches that would be considered modern then were a part of Radbourn's repertoire decades ago. Other books have documented the wide variety of pitches in a pitcher's arsenal back then.
Were the pitches really that varied back then, or were the differences in some of them so slight that we would today create groups of pitches that would each be placed in a single pitch type? Or were the old pitch types just discarded after many of them were found to be useless?
If anyone knows the answers, I'd love to hear them.

Sultan_1895-1948
06-29-2006, 04:11 AM
Greatest Pitching Seasons:
Here's a surprising suggestion Bill :D

How about Babe's 1916 being added, or knocking one of the lesser seasons off that list?

*37 win shares (pretty sure that led, with Johnson at 36? I think)

* 323 innings (1300 BF)

* 9 shutouts (lefty record that stood for a long time)

* 1.75 ERA (158+, is higher than the bottom 11 guys on your list)

* 6.40 H/9IP (led league by .24)

* .199 opp. BA

* 23-12 (with Boston's dreadful hitting, no telling how many wins he might have got)

* 23 CG

* 170 K's (3rd in the league)

* 4.73 K/9 IP (T-7th)

You mentioned awards.

There wasn't a Cy Young back then, but Babe certainly could have won it in '16. In fact, Babe's first ever New York HEADLINE came after the 1916 season, in The Times on December 10: It read simply RUTH LED PITCHERS (in reference to ERA). A week later The Times rated him best in the league, all things considered: "Babe Ruth of Boston carried off the pitching honors of the league." We can say he would have had a very good shot at the Cy Young, all things considered, eh.

So there's your award, sorta ;)

We can throw in that he made only 3 errors all year while turning 6 double plays (tied for second-the leader had 8), and was tied with Jim Bagby for the league lead in PO (24 - nobody else had more than 19).

He beat Johnson twice in 1-0 games that year including the 13 inning affair.

Its for the season, so you could throw in his gem of a WS game. Don't need to tell you about it. Setting a record with a fourteen inning CG on the largest stage imaginable. Allowing one run, tying the game with an RBI of his own, and then holding Brooklyn scoreless for the last 13 innings. The most pitches he threw in one inning was sixteen and the fewest eight. In six of the innings he needed only 9 pitches each. He walked three and struck out four and only threw 147 pitches (47 strikes/54 balls). He gave up six hits, twenty-three grounders, twelve flies, and five foul balls.

* He was a 21 year old lefty facing mostly right handed batters, and he didn't throw trick pitches.

If all this isn't enough to add him to the list, then what can I say. I tried on GHR's behalf :D Thanks for listening.

AstrosFan
06-29-2006, 12:51 PM
Certainly that is a fine season, but there are others more deserving. Don't limit yourself to Babe Ruth. I can tell you love the guy, but if you're going to suggest a season to add to Bill's list, look for the best available, not the best Ruth season. Try Dizzy Trout in 1944, or Dolf Luque in 1923. Both are, according to Win Shares, the best seasons of their respective decades.

Sultan_1895-1948
06-29-2006, 02:45 PM
I understand what you're saying. Its titled greatest pitching seasons, and I think when you take everything into account, Babe's one and only possible candidate year (1916) has a very good argument, certainly over some of those already on there (including Nolan's 72). You bring up win shares; Babe's '16 has a higher WS than 37 of those seasons named. He had more innings than 29 of those names on the list, more SHO than 28 names (as a lefty), more wins than 14 names, and a "cy young" award to boot. I think I'm being realistic in bringing up that season, but you're certainly right that there are many other great candidates.

AstrosFan
06-29-2006, 02:51 PM
Oh yes, I would agree that Babe's '16 is better than quite a few of those on the list.

AstrosFan
06-29-2006, 03:29 PM
I remember when Pedro got off to his amazing start in 2000. His ERA was below one, and there was talk of him breaking Bob Gibson's record for lowest ERA.
In fact, there was no chance of him breaking Gibson's record. That record is lowest ERA for pitchers with 300+ innings. No pitcher has thrown 300+ since Steve Carlton in 1980. Pedro certainly wasn't going to do it. The record he was going after was Dutch Leonard's, who posted a 0.96 ERA in 224 2/3 IP in 1914.
Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, and Randy Johnson have all had better careers than Pedro, but none of them were as dominant at their peak as Pedro was at his. I think we'll all remember how scary good the guy was in his finest seasons.

AstrosFan
06-29-2006, 06:22 PM
Since Bill posted some of the best seasons by starters, I thought I'd post some great seasons by relievers, as selected by members of BBF. I don't have them all up yet, this is just a sampling. Feel free to suggest additions to the list.


FirstName LastName Year W L Sv IP ERA+ WS
Dennis Eckersley 1990 4 2 48 73.3 606 19
Eric Gagne 2003 2 3 55 82.3 335 25
Bruce Sutter 1977 7 3 31 107.3 327 27
Mariano Rivera 2005 7 4 43 78.3 323 17
Ted Abernathy 1967 6 3 28 106.3 295 24
John Hiller 1973 10 5 38 125.3 285 31
Brendan Donnelly 2003 2 2 3 74 269 12
Robb Nen 1998 7 7 40 88.7 267 19
Trevor Hoffman 1998 4 2 53 73 258 20
Goose Gossage 1977 11 9 26 133 246 26
Mariano Rivera 1999 4 3 45 69 245 17
Mariano Rivera 1996 8 3 5 107.7 242 18
Brad Lidge 2004 6 5 29 94.7 227 22
Bruce Sutter 1984 5 7 45 122.7 226 23
Rob Dibble 1990 8 3 11 98 226 17
Dan Quisenberry 1983 5 3 45 139 210 28
Phil Regan 1966 14 1 21 116.7 203 23
Dick Radatz 1963 15 6 25 132.3 191 24
Stu Miller 1965 14 7 24 119.3 183 22
Darold Knowles 1970 2 14 27 119.3 175 15
Dick Radatz 1964 16 9 29 157 168 24
Jim Konstanty 1950 16 7 22 152 152 23
Hoyt Wilhelm 1952 15 3 11 159.3 152 18
Elroy Face 1959 18 1 10 93.3 143 15
Mike Marshall 1974 15 12 21 208.3 141 21
Wayne Granger 1969 9 6 27 144.7 135 15
Eddie Fisher 1965 15 7 24 165.3 133 20
Ted Abernathy 1968 10 7 13 134.7 128 13
Dennis Lamp 1985 11 0 2 105.7 127 10

Sultan_1895-1948
06-29-2006, 07:45 PM
BBWAA - July, 1997 - All-Time All-Star Team (numbers show 1st place votes)

LF - Williams 32, Musial 4, Rose, Kiner, Henderson, Bonds


October, 1998
Sporting News, 100 Greatest Baseball Players

33. Sisler
34. Bonds
35. Joe Jackson


Very interesting.
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1999 MLB's All-Century Team; Fan Survey/Poll
Announced October 23, 1999

SS - Ripken (669,033 votes), Banks (598,168), Wagner (526,740)

RHP - Ryan (992,040), Young (867,523), Clemens (601,244), Gibson (582,031), W. Johnson (479,279), Mathewson (249,747)


Chris: When I put Ripken down as over-rated, this is exactly why. What a joke. And I probably would rank Nolan higher than most people here, but WOW.

AstrosFan
06-30-2006, 12:57 PM
I added in the rest of the best relief season suggestions, plus a couple of others, Bruce Sutter in '77 and Trevor Hoffman in '98.

Bill Burgess
07-02-2006, 08:27 PM
From post #2, I'll select the original Hall of Fame vote, and the 1942 Sporting News poll/survey as the most incisive poll/surveys ever conducted, because the voters had actually seen the players they voted on.

Sultan_1895-1948
07-04-2006, 01:11 AM
Some of my Favorite Sports Writers:

1. Tim Murnane: 1888-1917: 29 yrs.
Introducing Timothy Hayes Murnane

Born: June 4, 1851, Naugatuck, CT
Died: February 7, 1917, Boston MA
Boston Globe, 1888-1917

ML 1B, 1872-78, 1884; Boston sports writer 27 yrs., 1890-1917; New England League class C President, 1891-1915. Founded Nat. Ass. of Prof. BB Leagues, 1901-15, and served as its VP; NL ump, 1886. Founded Boston Referee (1885),

Wright and Ditson BB Guide editor, 1889-1912, the official organ of the minor league National Ass.; Eastern League's 1st Pres., 1915. Chicago Cubs scout. Manager of Boston team, 1884, in outlaw Union Ass.

In 1884, he served as part owner, manager, captain, 1st basemen & recruiter for the Boston Union team. Organized the Boston Blues in 1886, but it wasn't successful.

Buried: Old Calvary Cemetery, Roslindale, MA.


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Bill Burgess
12-03-2006, 07:36 PM
The Sporting News was the most important and best sports publication that ever was. Sadly, it isn't any longer, nor has been for a long time.

Alfred Henry Spink - founded Sporting News in St. Louis, MO, on March 17, 1886, where it has been ever since. He sold it to his brother Charles Spink in 1895.

Charles Spink was a fabulous owner/editor, and ran it from 1895, to his death on April 22, 1914.

Charles' son John George (JG) Taylor Spink inherited it, and ran it from April 22, 1914, until his death Dec. 7, 1962. He was as fantastic as his Dad had been. During WW II, he had sent free copies to US service men overseas, and expanded it to include all sports, mainly including boxing & football.

Upon his death, it was inherited by Charles Claude (CC) Johnson Spink, who ran it from December 7, 1962 until he sold it in January, 1977, to the Times Mirror Corporation for $18m. He did a respectable, credible job, but was not in the same league as his 2 immediate predecessors, who had been inexhaustible, relentless powerhouse perfectionists. In 1990, the paper stopped running obituaries, which to me was a bitter, devastating blow. That editorial decision caused me to abandon it.

From its inception in 1876 to 1937, it ran only 8-10 page issues. By WWII, it was up to around 40, during the 70's-80's it often ran up to 100 page issues. Today, it usually runs 68 page issues.

While it started out as a general sports publication, in 1900, it became primarily a baseball newspaper, and hence adopted the moniker, The Bible of Baseball. And it richly earned its title until 1942. In the fall of 1942, The Sporting News incorporated football, boxing, basketball and hockey into its regular lineup, and has kept them there ever since.

Policy-wise, TSN opposed the Players League of 1890, calling it "outlaw", supported Ban Johnson/Charlie Comiskey's launching of the American League, was a worthy adversary of Commissioner Judge Landis, always supporting AL President Ban Johnson, fully promoted BB stars such as Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, & Babe Ruth, did not support Joe Jackson's or Buck Weaver's innocence in the Black Sox scandal, and supported the Yankees' in disciplining Babe Ruth.

In 1996, it incorporated 4 color photos.

Today, it sells around 520,000 copies every week, and is an important publication, but no longer stands out from its competition. It requires its obituaries section & interviews from former players to give it its former historical relevance, continuity & context.

Despite its decline, I must still highly recommend using it as a primary research resource.
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A few words for JG Taylor Spink:

The impact of a death, (outside one's own family), lies in its consequence. I stand by my opinion that his death was the most devastating to baseball as a whole, based on its impact of its coverage. It is difficult to equal the overall baseball impact of the loss of the guiding light of the sports most important publication.

Taylor Spink ran The Sporting News, from 1914, to his death on December 7, 1962. Oh unhappy day for baseball when he passed. His successor, Johnson Spink, lacked the greatness to keep up the standards. And all of the sport suffered greatly for the lack of it's chronicler.

All deaths are a loss, but some ripple on in their impacts forever. One would have had to be familiar with the paper to understand the profundity of the loss. He could not be replaced, and was not. Baseball was never covered, documented as well since. If it were, we would have had constant and continuous interviews with Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Frank Robinson, Jackie Robinson, etc. ever since they retired until they died. But we didn't. And how much the poorer are we all for those never conducted interviews!

We haven't come close to hearing what the best players since 1962 had to say about their sport, up to today. And that would never have been allowed to happen, if Taylor Spink had lived. He simply would not have allowed such a devastating blackout of the opinions of its most glittering ornaments.
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Baseball Magazine must come in second for most important BB publication. Available from the Library of Congress for around $2,000. I bought the 22 reels of microfilm, and have never regretted it. It ran from 1908-1954. And was a great publication up to around 1950.

One of the reasons it was such a dynamic, wonderful publication, was its editor-in-chief. From 1910-1937, 27 great years, Ferdinand Cole Lane guided its direction. After he left, it remained great for around another 10 yrs., under the able direction of Clifford Bloodgood. The Sports Library in Los Angeles is doing a project putting a lot of it online. So far, they have put 1908-1918 online. (323-730-4646) Wonderful reading. http://www.aafla.org/search/search_frmst.htm
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SABR: Society for American Baseball Research.

It was formed in 1972, and one of its earliest main guys was Bill James. Today, it is located in Cleveland, OH, and has 7,000 members. Since 2004, it also accepted its members individual research. Those who put out Total Baseball are core SABR members.

Today, 2 of the most potent reasons for joining are its 2 subscriptions, Proquest/Sporting News.

Proquest:

Proquest is a company located in Ann Arbor, MI, which specializes in digitalizing printed publications, such as newspapers, magazines, books. It was formerly called Bell & Howell, and later UMI.

Are you aware that you can read the entire NY Times archives from the comfort of your own home? All members of SABR get Proquest for free.

Proquest contains the following in one massive database: They haven't finished the entire runs yet. Here is what is now posted.

NY Times, 1851-2003
Chicago Daily Tribune, 1849-1986
Washington Post, 1877-1990
Los Angeles Times, 1881-1986
Boston Globe, 1872-1924
Atlanta Constitution, 1868-1930
Chicago Defender, 1905-1975, black newspaper

And they have a fantastic search engine too!

This database is worth hundreds of dollars, and SABR members have full access, 24/7, free. A vast resource of incalculable value for researchers of all fields, not just sports.

Both of these databases, come with good search engines. Proquest has a much better one, but its search objects are not high lighted, while Sporting News' search engine is much more primitive, but does high-light its search objects.

SABR costs $60.00 per year's subscription.

Paperofrecord: Which includes The Sporting News, full run, among many others.
SABR members also get a discounted subscription to paperofrecord, which includes Sporting News, 1886-2003. One can access it via paperofrecord. Its full run, 1886-2003 is all there. SABR members receive a hefty discount. One pays $74.99 for a 2-year subscription. Or, if one preferred, only $16.75 for 31 days. It's an indispensable archival resource for reference & research. They have assured me that they are looking into an improved search engine.

Paperofrecord by the way makes available a lot more than Sporting News. They also have many, many newspapers online available. The Baltimore Afro, 1902-78, a black newspaper, is also available. It has lots of obits of black Negro League guys, like Santop, etc.
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By the way Bill, exactly how many baseball books do you own?
Your tons of research indicates it's enough to open your own library!

Geoff,

It's funny you should ask that. Someone else once suggested that I have an extensive library of baseball books. That is hardly the case. But I wish I had!

My "baseball library" consists of about 5 book shelves. Plus a few vanilla files, and a 2-drawer file cabinet. Probably the smallest of any poster here.

The reason that I can post on such a range of topics/players in such an organized manner, is due to how I've organized my stuff.

For a very great number of years, where ever I went, I visited the local libraries, and scanned for my favorite subjects. Books on the old-timers. I'd take what they had to a table, scan the glossary for my favorite players/subjects, and xerox them right there. I'd take the pages home, and file them in my cabinet, according to player, subject, etc.

So whenever I want a player/subject, I go to my file and dig out what I need. I also have a good number of BB reference books, about 85 by my most recent count, all 24 of the SABR "National Pastimes, all 25 of their Research Journals, 9 assorted other SABR publications, 4 Total Baseballs, 1933 Who's Who In Major League Baseball, both Bill James' Historical Abstracts. I have 12 Cobb books, 7 Ruths, 6 McGraws, 4 Macks, 3 Joe Jacksons, 3 Wagners and 18 other assorted old timers' bios.

Where do I get my stuff? From all over, really. Books, magazines, online,
everywhere.

But I do have my Musty, Dusty Cabinet of Baseball Lore & Wonders.

I focused on Baseball from 1958-1965. Then my attention drifted to Track & Field, and professional Rock Dancing. When I refocused my attention on baseball around 1985, I discovered to my shock and dismay, that Ruth was being called the best. When I last followed Baseball in 1965, Cobb was called the best. So you can imagine my chagrin.

So I set about to disprove this heinous heresy. I began to go through the Sporting News, from around 1918, to find what those who had seen them both thought. Page by individual page, I crawled through each issue.

SABR would mail me 3 reels of microfilm at a time, and I'd go down to the Palo Alto Library, armed with a $20. roll of quarters, and junk food/soda, fortified for a long day at the library. On a stool in front of the microfilm reader, I fed quarter after quarter into it's hungry maw.

Whenever I found a relevant page, I'd download it. That went on from 1985-89, 1993-2003. And I'd visit all the surrounding libraries for relevant books, copying my pages. I got to 1990 in the Sporting News. Damn near bankrupted my piggy bank. So today, I have my cabinet stuffed with my countless articles.

Another good thing developed. With the advent of the INTERNET, collectible baseball books became used baseball books. The established market price structure collapsed. What before cost $30. due to specialized searches for out of print books, now became $5.-10. used books. Cleaned up my want list in a jiffy.
(www.bookfinder.com is the absolute final word for affordable used BB books.)

So, now, I have tools which could have saved my eyes/wallet in earlier times. And I use them every day. I also have other databases which I pay money for to assist me in gaining dates. Ancestry.com

So I can now get most of what I need from home. Interlibrary book loans are another way to save a lot of money.

I have also learned to enlist the research librarians across the country to assist me via email. If one wants to, one can bundle the email addresses of 20 of the reference librarians of the former 16 ML BB cities. With one click, I can request those librarians to assist me in searching for my research objectives. It pays to learn to be efficient.
----------------------------------------------------
Proquest/Sporting News alone allows anyone to access info like a researcher. I wish I had that years ago. Could have saved me a lifetime of library slavery.

Bill Burgess
12-03-2006, 08:09 PM
Gene "Two-Fingered" Carney/Black Sox:

To the good brothers in the house. My good pal, Gene "Two-Fingered" Carney, was so good to respond to my email, furthering our discussions. He gives excellent feedback, as only he can.

Gene is the most knowledgable person I know concerning the 'Black Sox Scandal'. He is the author of 'Burying The Black Sox'.

Hope you find his perceptions enlightening. I learn more every time I chat with him. Enjoy.

My text is in red, Gene's text is in blue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill,

Glad the new e-dress is working. Let me reply to your comments below, then to the longer item you sent to me, with the questions from John & Mark.

I do believe that Jackson never agreed to under perform. And I think he tried to take the "dirty envelope" to Commie's office and was denied entrance by Grabiner, to not have "guilty knowledge".

I agree. The Milwaukee 1924 trial jury also agreed, by 11-1 (so even there, it was never unanimous or a no-brainer), about the "DON'T show me the money" story, right after the Series. (Jackson also offered to come to Chi & tell all, in a letter to Commy -- not Commie -- in Fall 1919, that's documented. The team never followed up. They were covering up.)

And I strongly believe that Austrian talked Joe out of telling the Grand Jury that he only was taking the envelope to Commie. Austrian told him to take the blame, and tell them you accepted the money for throwing.

Well, here I disagree some. Yes, Austrian definitely coached Jackson about what to say to the GJ -- with the TEAM'S interest #1 ... but Jackson NEVER said he threw a game. When his GJ statement was later reported as a CONFESSION of his guilt in the tossing, he vigorously denied it (he was back in the south by then). He confessed to knowing about the Fix (but he was clearly not in the inner circle) ... to receiving money (from his pal Lefty) .. but NEVER to earning that loot. By the way, I do not think Jackson ever intended to turn the money in -- he just wanted to show it to Commy -- but he felt it was his, because Lefty had told the gamblers that Joe was in on the Fix. He wasn't, but his NAME was. That ticked him off. Lefty just tossed the money at him, and his view was, Hell, if no one else wants it, I'll take it. BAD choice, but he couldn't have known what was in store for himself and the others implicated.

And as an agent of the team, the team was throwing Jackson away by that advice. I hope you see the big importance in that one point. I doubt Jackson accepted the money as payment for under performing. The Sox let him take the fall. And that was his downfall. In my humble opinion. Do you agree on that point or no?

Well ... the Sox (Commy & Gleason more than Austrian) really wanted to salvage ALL the players (except maybe Gandil) ... they had a dynasty, a cash cow. BUT, the team was worth more than even their superstars. Saving their own bacon was #1. Again, I believe the team (C, G & A) would have much preferred Jackson NOT going to the GJ. But he was set on doing that -- he heard his name mixed up in the mess, and it was in the papers (his was one of the 8 checks held up after the Series -- THAT linked these guys in the GJ coverage initially ... and as it turned out, for life!) So they did some spin control -- coached him, made promises (to "take care of him"), but really, the Sox wanted him back in their uniform someday. Other players had done less crooked stuff and gotten off with a slap (Hal Chase is Exhibit A). The players could safely assume that the team and BASEBALL would want to hush up any monkey business (they were right). Maybe a fine or suspension. At worst, both. (To borrow a line from JC Superstar: "Just don't say we're damned for all time!")

*****

OK, on to the other thing you sent.

Mark: I don't think Jackson is guilty as hell -- why do you think I think that?

On those 2 questions (sorry, can't do it in 4 words or less, but I'll be brief):

1)Was he told about the Fix in advance? YES.(So was Commy & Ban Johnson, in advance of Game One -- and they could have called a halt and investigated. Did Jackson tell his team "in advance", meaning before the first pitch of Game One? I think he did. Didn't need to tell Gleason & Commy, tho -- they knew!)

2) Did he receive a cut of the money? YES. But did he do anything at all to earn the tainted cash? I don't believe he did. Neither did COMISKEY, by the way.

What is the evidence? We have Jackson GJ statement from Sept 28, 1920. Nothing relevant before that, except the correspondence with Commy (see Gropman's books -- for the appendices). We have statements ATTRIBUTED to Jackson after the GJ, which do NOT square with what he said (drunk, but worse: coached) on the witness stand. We have very little from the 1921 trial. But we have LOTS from the 1924 trial, when he had his OWN lawyer doing the coaching. Gropman's book has more of the 1924 stuff than any other source to date. My book will have a lot from that trial, too -- but I am NOT at all focused on Jackson, but on the cover-up, so the Jackson issue is not central for me. BUT I know it's THE issue from the B-Sox event of 1919 ... so I treat Jackson at length in my book. AND his unique role in the cover-up.

Then we have a bunch of statements from 1925 to the end of his life. He maintained that he played to win. Never tried to cover-up (!) the fact that he took and kept "dirty" money. Maintained respect for Commy, and also for Landis -- as if he understood that the Judge was just doing his job (he was). VERY hard to evaluate all the evidence, but I personally put a lot of weight on the Milwaukee jury's verdict (11-1) because they heard all the right people testify -- Jackson, his wife, his teammates, Commy, Grabiner, Hugh Fullerton -- some of them knew zilch about baseball, by the way -- and they HEARD these folks (except for the affidavits), SAW them on the stand, something we cannot do.

Let me end by mentioning for those who do not know me, that I got hooked on the B-Sox three years ago ... you can look it up -- go to www.baseball1.com/carney and look up issue #268 in the archive. You will see my book evolve (I did not start out writing one, that came later) in the issues that follow. I'm STILL finding new stuff.

Even if you don't read anything at that site -- consider clicking on the link that will give you access to a Yahoo group devoted to the B-Sox ... the members include a number of authors & researchers, but it's mostly fans who like to discuss all of the aspects of this eternal puzzle. You can look in THAT archive, too, for lots of different opinions. The more you learn, the less certain you feel -- that's my experience. And that's good, for discussions.

If I missed anything, let me know.

Gene Carney
Utica, NY
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Thought the house might like to see Gene's email to me. Disagrees with me in some places, agrees in more of the important ones. You be the judge.
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Bill,
Let me add my comments below in bold CAPS. Note that I have a new e-dress.
Gene
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OK. Mark thanked me for my imagination, says I know stuff no one else does. Well, I don't have rare, arcane "evidence". I wasn't there, but I do possess a rare gift for "seeing" what others overlook. Like forensic pathologist / criminologist Dr. Henry Lee, I see not only what is there, but what isn't, but should be there. When something obvious should be there, and is missing, I get suspicious. So allow me to show you things through my eyes, which you may not have ever thought about before.

And afterwards, you will wonder why such things had never occurred to you before.

First, I will define a term or two. I am among the "Free Jackson" camp. Others are in the "Hang Jackson" camp. And a third group is, "Couldn't Care Less".

WELL, I'VE TRIED TO STAY UNBIASED, A COLLECTOR OF EVIDENCE. NOT THE SAME AS NOT CARING.

Let's begin. The Hang Jackson camp wants us to believe that Jackson threw the series, deliberately underperformed, took money to under perform, truthfully confessed his guilt, honestly signed a confession.

If we suggest that there was collusion between the prosecution/defense, they would scoff at such "nonsense".

We, the Free Jackson camp, believe that Jackson probably knew something rotten was going on around him, refused to attend the 2 meetings the cheaters held,

THAT'S KIND OF STRONG. HE WAS JUST GOOD AT GETTING OUT OF MEETINGS.

played his best game, and when Lefty Williams threw a brown bag, with an envelope full of money on the chest of drawers, he dutifully took it to management to tell them what he suspected, was denied entrace to the office, and was left "holding the bag." Which by the way, may be the origin of that saying.

NO, HE WAS HOLDING A DIRTY ENVELOPE. GRABINER DENIED THE INCIDENT, BY THE WAY.

Let's look through my eyes. Not only was Joe Jackson's testimony twisted, convoluted, contorted, conflicted, and contradictory, it was totally irrational.

But it wasn't only Jackson's testimony which defied imagination. The prosecutions examination of Jackson was beyond sanity. It was obviously scripted, staged, colluded with the defense, and worse.

JOE ONLY TESTIFIED AT THE GRAND JURY, THERE WAS NO DEFENSE THERE. HE DIDN'T TESTIFY AT THE 1921 TRIAL, EXCEPT TO REPUDIATE HIS 1920 GJ STATEMENT.

Whoever prepared the questions for Joe Jackson was the most inept, incompetent, unprofessional, and insanely omissive lawyer who ever conducted an examination! Not even a student straight from law school could possibly fail to ask so many necessary questions.

A COUPLE EXAMPLES WOULD HELP HERE.

Considering that the prosecution was trying to prove a fraud was perpetuated, a conspiracy happened, and Jackson was a part of it, why were so many questions never asked.

If fact, it gets worse.

If the White Sox were trying to represent the players, why was Joe Jackson allowed to take the stand??!! Why were the players not protected? If the players represented an investment to the team, why did the team not attempt even a basic defense. Even if Joe was guilty (which I don't), why was he allowed to take the stand. Why wasn't he allowed to exercise his 5th amendment rights to not incriminate himself. This is not only legal, but good courtroom protocol.

WELL, CICOTTE WENT TO THE GJ VOLUNTARILY. SO DID JACKSON. BUT A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY -- HE WAS COACHED FOR SOME TIME BY AUSTRIAN, THE SOX' LAWYER (NOT HIS OWN). BUT HE WENT TO CLEAR HIS NAME AND TELL WHAT HE KNEW. THE SOX TRIED TO LOOK GOOD BY "SENDING" HIM (AND CICOTTE).

Let the American League, Ban Johnson, Landis prove them guilty by evidence. We call that due process. There IS a great reason why the White Sox didn't move to protect Jackson, but the Hang Jackson camp can't figure it out! They have no clue whatsoever.

If the Hang Jackson camp wants to "play dumb", they can simply pretend that Comiskey wanted to allow justice to take its course! How naive! Even if the management believed they were guilty, they wouldn't have cared. They would have moved to protect their investment, save the team, and not allow the players to take the stand.

I THINK COMMY HOPED TO SALVAGE HIS DYNASTY. MAYBE GET THEM OFF WITH A FINE/SUSPENSION.

And if they had let the players take the stand, they'd have instructed the players to say, "I can't remember", or "I don't know", or more commonly, to simply lie, and deny wrong-doing. But the team let Jackson take the stand. They let him testify. They let him incriminate himself. They let him walk the plank. They threw him away. So what gives? How do the Hang Jackson Committee account for such irrational courtroom strategy? They might try to say, "Let the scoundrels burn!"

But if that was true, and it is ridiculous, why would there be any need for Comiskey to steal the transcripts,

ROTHSTEIN PROBABLY STOLE THEM; COMMY WAS SIMPLY TRYING TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE, METHINX.

resign the cheaters, and pretend there was no wrong-doings? Hmm. If the Comiskey team wanted to throw them away, why let them take the stand in the first place. Why didn't they make the prosecution prove their case without assistance? Why help the prosecution with Jackson's testimony? Hmm? Hang Jackson Committee are clueless. They can't answer because their position is insanely illogical to begin with.

So, so far, what do we have here.

Comiskey lets his $50,000. baseball property take the stand, expel himself from the game, and feed him into the arms of his enemies. ???????!!

THERE WAS NO PRECEDENT. COMMY BELIEVE JACKSON PLAYED TO WIN. HE WAS MAINLY CONCERNED THAT JACKSON NOT DISCLOSE THAT OTHERS (NOT JUST PLAYERS) KNEW OF THE FIX, BEFORE GAME ONE STARTED. THAT INCLUDED BAN JOHNSON, BUT COMMY COULDN'T PROVE THAT, NOR DID HE WANT TO. THE INDUSTRY WAS AT STAKE.

Now, the fog thickens. Collusion.

Why did the prosecution fail to ask anything of substance outside of money to Jackson?

Why wasn't he asked why he took money to sell out?

NO. THE ASSUMPTION WAS, IF YOU TOOK MONEY, YOU MUST HAVE EARNED IT SOMEHOW. JACKSON ADMITTED TO TAKING MONEY, LESS THAN HE WAS PROMISED. HE ALSO SAID HE PLAYED TO WIN! BUT WHAT HE NEVER SAID -- OR WHAT NEVER MADE IT TO THE RECORD-- WAS THAT HE TRIED TO TELL HIS TEAM ABOUT THE FIX (BEFORE OR AFTER).

Why wasn't he asked what plays he misplayed or which ABs he let up?

BECAUSE HE SAID HE PLAYED TO WIN -- AT BAT & IN THE FIELD.

Why wasn't he asked what other plays he suspected were thrown?

I THINK HE WAS ASKED SOMETHING LIKE THIS, & RECALLED THE CICOTTE-RISBERG MUFF.

Why wasn't he asked why he didn't attend the 2 hotel meetings of the cheaters?

JUST TEASING YOU HERE: WHY DIDN'T EDDIE COLLINS ATTEND? A GOOD Q WOULD HAVE BEEN, "WERE YOU INVITED TO ATTEND? BY WHOM? DID YOU?"

Why wasn't his relationship with Lefty Williams explored more fully?

LEFTY "CONFESSED" THE NEXT DAY. THE GJ DIDN'T HAVE HIS STATEMENT YET.

Why wasn't he grilled about his signed confession, and if it was valid?

AGAIN, JOE NEVER TOOK THE STAND AT THE TRIAL. NONE OF THE PLAYERS DID, EXCEPT TO DENY THEIR 1920 STATEMENTS AND THEY ALL SAID Judge McDONALD PROMISED TO TAKE CARE OF THEM; INSTEAD, THEY WERE PROSECUTED.

In fact, why was no aspect of the conspiracy explored outside of his taking a bag of money?

THE GJ DID NOT PROBE VERY DEEPLY; I THINK THEY KNEW WHERE TO STOP DIGGING. THE 1921 TRIAL WAS NOT AT ALL A PROBE. IT WAS ALL ABOUT IMAGE, NOT JUSTICE. MANY TRIALS ARE..

Why was Joe Jackson called on to testify once, and not recalled to answer so many more relevant questions?

YOU'RE IN 1921: HE ONLY TESTIFIED TO DISPUTE THE CONFESSION. THE STRATEGY OF NOT LETTING THE PLAYERS TESTIFY "WORKED" -- THEY WERE ALL FOUND NOT GUILTY.

Why were the questions confined into such a restricted area of Jackson/money, and little else, such as his confession?

Why wasn't Jackson asked if the cheaters were throwing games in 1920?

If the prosecution really wanted to prove that a conspiracy occurred, why were the questions so confined to money?

Why was motivation not even attempted to be established? Not a single question to go to motive?

NO NEED. THEY DID IT FOR MONEY. EASY MONEY, IT'S VERY AMERICAN. BUY A LOTTO TICKET.

This was the worse examination ever. If all was as the Hang Jackson Committee would have us believe, the prosecution was liable for malpractice.

But there IS a logical reason for all this seemingly imbecilic examination. And here it is.

The reason the White Sox allowed Jackson to take the stand is that they were given covert, tacit assurances from the Commissioner's Office that the players were in no real legal jeopardy. So that accounts for their seeming crazy strategy. They felt no danger. Why?

NAH. THE SOX WERE WILLING TO ROLL THE DICE WITH THE PLAYERS, BUT NOT WITH THE FRANCHISE, WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN LOST -- OR SEVERELY DAMAGED WITH ALL THE OTHER TEAMS -- IF THE AWFUL TRUTH CAME OUT.

Landis was setting them up.

NAH. LANDIS DIDN'T EVEN WANT A TRIAL. UNNECESSARY. JOHNSON PRESSED FOR THE TRIAL. WITH LITTLE SUPPORT FROM THE OWNERS. THEY JUST WANTED THIS MESS TO GO AWAY. QUICKLY.

As a shrewd former jurist, he gave them to understand, without paperwork, that his targets were gamblers.

THIS WAS JUDGE McDONALD, IN THE 1920 GJ. AND AUSTRIAN. NOT THE 1921 TRIAL.

He wanted to go after them, drive them out of the sport, and possibly put them on trial. The players would be seen as their victims. And the Comiskey team suckered in. Big Time.

Alfred Austrian took Jackson aside and coached him to turn his original story of bringing the money to management, into I accepted the money. Both Comiskey/Austrian believed that by throwing this bone to Landis .

(NO LANDIS WAS 1921),

he'd be placated into thinking that since he knew the truth, he'd relax his wrath against the players.

So they felt that letting Jackson fall on his sword, all would then relax and go back to normal, while Landis then went after Rothstein & Co. Man did Landis know his man. Played him like a violin.

After Jackson testified, at some point, Landis let his mask come off, and Comiskey awoke to his legal danger. Realized how he'd been suckered with ridiculous ease. Felt up to his big nose in Landis "setup quicksand".

And then, he set out to save his team. But alas, too late. Way too late. The damage had been done, Jackson was compromised, and the nutzo defense strategy exposed as no defense strategy at all.

If Comiskey team really believed that Jackson was guilty, and letting him testify was merely the "right thing to do", then why did they then feel the need to steal the transcripts??!! Something obviously had gone horribly awry and changed.

You don't let your valuable baseball property testify, expel himself and then try to save him with a crime of theft. Just doesn't make any sense. Schizo.

Now collusion. It makes sense, initially, if we understand that the defense had a backroom deal with the prosecution.

MORE LIKELY THE DEFENSE DREAM TEAM AT THE 1921 TRIAL HAD AN UNDERSTANDING WITH BAN JOHNSON ... THEY WOULD NOT BASH BASEBALL SO HARD THAT THE SPORT WOULD GO UNDER. THE BIGGER DEAL WAS WITH THE PROSECUTION, WHICH JOHNSON INFLUENCED MUCH MORE: THEY WOULD FOCUS ON THE PLAYERS AND A FEW LOW-LEVEL GAMBLERS. MAYBE ONE OF FOUR OR FIVE SYNDICATES. NO MANAGEMENT, ONLY LABOR.

They instructed the prosecutor's office that they coached the witness Jackson, on the money aspect, but to keep the questions focused on money ONLY. If they went outside that, Jackson would blow the entire arrangement and tell the truth.

As it was, Jackson proved to be a terrible witness. Kept breaking with the Austrian script, and blurting out how innocent he was, how he didn't do anything wrong.

YOU'RE BACK IN 1920 HERE. REMEMBER JOE WAS HALf_DRUNK, TOO, SO MAYBE THE PERFORMANCE WASN'T THAT BAD! McDONALD WANTED HIM TO COME BACK THE NEXT MORNING -- SOBER?? WHY DIDN'T HE?

So that accounts for why he wasn't called back. If Joe Jackson was truly guilty, and wanted to confess his guilt for real, he'd not have blurted out he played clean around 5 times.

He could have been asked and he would have answered why he took the money to lose games. He could have been asked and he would have answered all the details, what plays he messed up, which ABs he let down on, and why he didn't attend the 2 cheaters meetings.

These and a lot of other questions are the reason we can all laugh our heads off at the Hang Jackson Committee. They can't begin to answer any questions because their ridiculous premise has always been insanely irrational.

Here is what they must tell us, if they want to ever have credibility.

They must tell us why Commie allowed Jackson to testify,

AGAIN: JACKSON CAME VOLUNTARILY TO THE GJ IN 1920, ALL THE SOX COULD DO IS COACH HIM TO STAY AWAY FROM THE STATEMENTS THAT COULD CRIPPLE THE TEAM. JOE LIKED COMMY! TRUSTED THE SOX, AT THAT POINT. BAD DECISION. I AM PRETTY SURE THE SOX WOULD HAVE MUCH PREFERRED JOE NOT TESTIFY. CERTAINLY NOT UNTIL THE NEXT WEEK -- WHEN THE PENNANT WAS WON. MAYBE AFTER THE 1920 WORLD SERIES? WHAT IF THE SOX WON THAT SERIES?

and then stole the documents. Contradictory actions.

Here and now, I will make a prediction. The Hang Jackson Committee will say they don't have to "prove" or "answer" anything. That is all they CAN say. Since they have don't have any answers to the contradictory actions, we can continue to blow them off and laugh our heads off at them. Fear not. They have no ideas, because they have no clue. And ultimately, they couldn't care less.

Bill Burgess
__________________


YOU'LL LOVE MY BOOK!
GENE
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To the good brothers in the house. My good pal, Gene "Two-Fingered" Carney, was so good to respond to my email, furthering our discussions. He gives excellent feedback, as only he can. Hope you find it enlightening. I learn more every time I chat with him. Enjoy.
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Bill,

Glad the new e-dress is working. Let me reply to your comments below, then to the longer item you sent to me, with the questions from John & Mark.

I do believe that Jackson never agreed to under perform. And I think he tried to take the "dirty envelope" to Commie's office and was denied entrance by Grabiner, to not have "guilty knowledge".

I agree. The Milwaukee 1924 trial jury also agreed, by 11-1 (so even there, it was never unanimous or a no-brainer), about the "DON'T show me the money" story, right after the Series. (Jackson also offered to come to Chi & tell all, in a letter to Commy -- not Commie -- in Fall 1919, that's documented. The team never followed up. They were covering up.)

And I strongly believe that Austrian talked Joe out of telling the Grand Jury that he only was taking the envelope to Commie. Austrian told him to take the blame, and tell them you accepted the money for throwing.

Well, here I disagree some. Yes, Austrian definitely coached Jackson about what to say to the GJ -- with the TEAM'S interest #1 ... but Jackson NEVER said he threw a game. When his GJ statement was later reported as a CONFESSION of his guilt in the tossing, he vigorously denied it (he was back in the south by then). He confessed to knowing about the Fix (but he was clearly not in the inner circle) ... to receiving money (from his pal Lefty) .. but NEVER to earning that loot. By the way, I do not think Jackson ever intended to turn the money in -- he just wanted to show it to Commy -- but he felt it was his, because Lefty had told the gamblers that Joe was in on the Fix. He wasn't, but his NAME was. That ticked him off. Lefty just tossed the money at him, and his view was, Hell, if no one else wants it, I'll take it. BAD choice, but he couldn't have known what was in store for himself and the others implicated.

And as an agent of the team, the team was throwing Jackson away by that advice. I hope you see the big importance in that one point. I doubt Jackson accepted the money as payment for under performing. The Sox let him take the fall. And that was his downfall. In my humble opinion. Do you agree on that point or no?

Well ... the Sox (Commy & Gleason more than Austrian) really wanted to salvage ALL the players (except maybe Gandil) ... they had a dynasty, a cash cow. BUT, the team was worth more than even their superstars. Saving their own bacon was #1. Again, I believe the team (C, G & A) would have much preferred Jackson NOT going to the GJ. But he was set on doing that -- he heard his name mixed up in the mess, and it was in the papers (his was one of the 8 checks held up after the Series -- THAT linked these guys in the GJ coverage initially ... and as it turned out, for life!) So they did some spin control -- coached him, made promises (to "take care of him"), but really, the Sox wanted him back in their uniform someday. Other players had done less crooked stuff and gotten off with a slap (Hal Chase is Exhibit A).

The players could safely assume that the team and BASEBALL would want to hush up any monkey business (they were right). Maybe a fine or suspension. At worst, both. (To borrow a line from JC Superstar: "Just don't say we're damned for all time!")

*****

OK, on to the other thing you sent.

Mark: I don't think Jackson is guilty as hell -- why do you think I think that?

On those 2 questions (sorry, can't do it in 4 words or less, but I'll be
brief):

1) Was he told about the Fix in advance?
YES. (So was Commy & Ban Johnson, in advance of Game One -- and they could have called a halt and investigated.

Did Jackson tell his team "in advance", meaning before the first pitch of Game One?
I think he did. Didn't need to tell Gleason & Commy, tho -- they knew!)

2) Did he receive a cut of the money? YES. But did he do anything at all to earn the tainted cash? I don't believe he did. Neither did COMISKEY, by the way.

What is the evidence? We have Jackson GJ statement from Sept 28, 1920. Nothing relevant before that, except the correspondence with Commy (see Gropman's books -- for the appendices). We have statements ATTRIBUTED to Jackson after the GJ, which do NOT square with what he said (drunk, but worse: coached) on the witness stand. We have very little from the 1921 trial. But we have LOTS from the 1924 trial, when he had his OWN lawyer doing the coaching. Gropman's book has more of the 1924 stuff than any other source to date. My book will have a lot from that trial, too -- but I am NOT at all focused on Jackson, but on the cover-up, so the Jackson issue is not central for me. BUT I know it's THE issue from the B-Sox event of 1919 ... so I treat Jackson at length in my book. AND his unique role in the cover-up.

Then we have a bunch of statements from 1925 to the end of his life. He maintained that he played to win. Never tried to cover-up (!) the fact that he took and kept "dirty" money. Maintained respect for Commy, and also for Landis -- as if he understood that the Judge was just doing his job (he was). VERY hard to evaluate all the evidence, but I personally put a lot of weight on the Milwaukee jury's verdict (11-1) because they heard all the right people testify -- Jackson, his wife, his teammates, Commy, Grabiner, Hugh Fullerton -- some of them knew zilch about baseball, by the way -- and they HEARD these folks (except for the affidavits), SAW them on the stand, something we cannot do.

Let me end by mentioning for those who do not know me, that I got hooked on the B-Sox three years ago ... you can look it up -- go to www.baseball1.com/carney and look up issue #268 in the archive. You will see my book evolve (I did not start out writing one, that came later) in the issues that follow. I'm STILL finding new stuff.

Even if you don't read anything at that site -- consider clicking on the link that will give you access to a Yahoo group devoted to the B-Sox ... the members include a number of authors & researchers, but it's mostly fans who like to discuss all of the aspects of this eternal puzzle. You can look in THAT archive, too, for lots of different opinions. The more you learn, the less certain you feel -- that's my experience. And that's good, for discussions.

If I missed anything, let me know.

Gene Carney
Utica, NY
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I submitted some of Ubiquitous' comments to Gene Carney. Just curious to see what Gene had to say. I just got back this email from him, and thought some of you might find his remarks worthwhile to hear.

For the reader's convenience, I have high-lighted the text.
Red = ubiquitous
Blue = Gene Carney
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Bill,
As I said to Keith Olbermann on his MSNBC-TV show Friday night -- Joe Jackson's case is very complicated! (Keith read the review copy, loved the book & gave the publisher a nice "blurb".)

I don't have any strong objections to your reply ... but I'll add a few comments.
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Before Game 1 Joe asks out of the game.

WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS? ASINOF, 1963. SPORTING NEWS, 1961, STORY OUT OF GREENVILLE. WOULD LOVE TO FIND ASINOF'S NOTES & SEE IF IT CAME FROM FELSCH OR FABER.

At this point one can say that Joe most definitely knew about the fix.

JOE CLAIMED LATER THAT HE TALKED WITH COMISKEY ABOUT THE THREATENED FIX, WELL BEFORE THE SERIES & AGAIN RIGHT BEFORE. NEEDS CORROBORATION, MISSING FULLERTON ARTICLES? HE ALSO SAID BILL BURNS TALKED WITH HIM THE MORNING OF GAME ONE, CONFIRMING THE FIX WAS IN (BURNS THOUGHT JOE WAS IN THE KNOW, HE WASN'T.) "BEGGING TO BE BENCHED" (SPORTING NEWS) BEFORE GAME ONE IS CRUCIAL DETAIL. CALL ATTENTION TO ONESELF, IF PLAYING TO LOSE?

Now Jackson plays, by the time game 4 is to start 6 of the 8 players have received money. McMullin who is a bit player and is only in on it because over-heard Gandil does not receive money and neither does Weaver.

EXACTLY WHEN MONEY WAS REC'D, HOW MUCH BY WHOM, NOT AT ALL CLEAR. NEVER WAS!

Now why does Jackson get money and Weaver does not? Why is it that the players do not think Weaver deserves a cut but Jackson does? Again if Jackson is merely bait or is clearly not in on it why does he get a cut? Weaver it appears by all accounts makes it very clear that he is playing to win and therefore does not get money. Does Joe Jackson not take the money? No. Does Joe Jackson run straight to Comiskey with the money? No. He complains that he didn't get enough money and then goes 1 for 8 in the next to thrown games.

JACKSON KNOWS WHAT LEFTY TOLD HIM. LEFTY DIDN'T KNOW EVERYTHING. DIDN'T KNOW IF GAME 3 WAS PLAYED TO WIN (I THINK IT WAS). LEFTY GIVES JAX, HIS FRIEND, $5,000. SAYS GANDIL GAVE HIM $10,000 TO SPLIT ... BUT DID CHICK DO THAT, OR JUST REWARD LEFTY FOR DELIVERING THE L's? JOE'S WIFE THERE, NOT AT ALL CLEAR ABOUT WHAT WORDS WENT WITH THE MONEY. SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T CRY, AS JOE HAD IT IN HIS COACHED (BY AUSTRIAN, NOT HIS OWN ADVOCATE TESTIMONY, GIVEN HALF-DRUNK. WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT JACKSON KEPT THE FIVE GRAND, GAVE IT TO KATIE, SHE BANKED IT, USED IT FOR HOSPITAL BILLS (JOE'S SISTER). DID JOE SHOW IT TO HIS TEAM RIGHT AFTER THE SERIES? I THINK SO (SO DID A MILWAUKEE JURY, 11-1). HE WROTE COMMY OFFERING TO COME TO CHI, TELL HIS STORY; NO TAKERS. HE WENT TO THE GRAND JURY WITH SAME IN MIND, TO CLEAR HIS CONSCIENCE. TOLD GRAND JURY HE PLAYED TO WIN -- THAT WENT UNREPORTED. WHY? (ALSO SAID HE WAS OFFERED TEN, THEN TWENTY GRAND, AND THAT HE WAS GIVEN ONLY FIVE. THE "ONLY" HURT HIM. "WHY WAS HE EXPECTING MORE, IF HE PLAYED TO WIN?" WHEN HIS GJ TESTIMONY WAS REPORTED AS A "CONFESSION" HE IMMEDIATELY OBJECTED, AND DID SO THE REST OF HIS LIFE. THE GJ FOREMAN BACKED HIM UP.

I THINK AUSTRIAN COACHED JAX ON ONE BIG POINT: KEEP COMMY & GLEASON OUT OF IT.
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Yet Joe Jackson in one of his most pivotal moments of his life and his career decides to protect Comiskey even though it implicates him in on a fix that he supposedly was innocent of, and he does this for a guy he is supposed to hate?

***I don't find the players hating Commy. He signed their paychecks, and as underpaid as they surely were, they were still ALL grateful to be playing ball for a living, making more than the avg American, and NOT having to work -- except in the off-season! I find Commy being respected ... a tyrant, yes, tight on salaries, yes ... not an ogre, not Scrooge, just typical -- also a soberin' thought, as Pogo might put it. I think they resented Commy, he broke his promise to give them $5000 for winning the Series in 1917. So there was a credibility problem. But he still held the purse-strings, and their future. ***

***Commy also testified in 1924 that he thought Joe played the Series to win, by the way, and at that point he wasn't trying to salvage him ... in fact, admitting that might have cost Commy over $16,000, Jackson's back pay.

Actually, the jury DID find in Jax' favor, but the verdict was overturned -- thanx to that awful, ambiguous 1920 grand jury statement, which had been stolen ... but which surfaced in 1924, conveniently, out of Commy's lawyers' briefcase.***

***Wait -- leaked grand jury testimony condemns star left-fielder? Was that 1919 ... or just last year?***

Gene
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But if you liked Gene's letter, you will surely enjoy this email from Gene, which just came in.
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Bill,

First, I apologize for all the CAPS in that last reply. I do that to distinguish my stuff from the stuff I'm commenting on, when I don't have bold or a different font handy ... I finally switched to using *** instead.

Meant to ask -- are you in the B-Sox Yahoo group? I thought you were. That's about 80-90 folks with more than a little interest in 1919 & aftermath ... not all agree, so we get some good discussions going, but there are some very knowledgeable folks in there, too, not just authors, but folks like Bob Hoie, a true B-Sox expert. There's a link to the group, it's easy to join, at my site www.baseball1.com/carney ... in issue #361 (there's a huge archive, but 361 is up top right now) there's an essay "On the B-Sox Trail" which your friends might enjoy. (I started my research with issue #268!)

Below is a sample of the kind of stuff the Yahoo group does, or is doing these days, with the 1919 Series back in the news. If you know any Buck Weaver fans, I posted another letter I sent him (and I "defend" Buck in #345).

Someone called me The Hub today, and I guess I am, because I can either answer Q's or refer people to experts on Felsch or Fullerton or Jackson or Commy ETC. I expect that someday there will be a B-Sox SABR committee (the Yahoo group functions as one, but we don't need to publish!)

Gene

PS: Anyone who wants notices when new issues of NOTES go up can just email me at THIS address. The BORG address no longer works. something to keep in mind if you're in the Notes Archive.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Carney
To: 1919 B-Sox
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 9:35 PM
Subject: An Open Letter to Dave Anderson, NY Times


Dear Mr Anderson,

I read your column of October 19, "White Sox Cannot Rinse Out Stain of 1919," with much interest. That's because I've been doing some research on the 1919 World Series and the scandal that followed. And I want to suggest some corrections to the account you have passed on.

The eight White Sox players who were banned were certainly not equally guilty (or innocent). Not all took bribes, not all sat in on meetings, and there is some evidence that not all kept the Fix from their team's manager and owner. There is evidence, however, that the manager and owner, as well as the baseball authorities in charge of the World Series, had "guilty knowledge" of the Fix even before Game One started. If the players failed to speak up, those in power failed to halt the Series to investigate the strong "rumors," failed to investigate right after the Series, and were less than candid with the public about what they knew about the ties from gambling that were strangling baseball. They chose to pretend that "eight men out" punished baseball's single sin -- as if the 1919 Series was the first tampering, and the last. Of course, it was not.

You are correct, the Cook County grand jury was convened in September 1920 to look into the charges that the August 31 Cubs-Phils game was fixed (and into baseball pools). But Buck Herzog and the Boston Braves had testified in a NL hearing earlier that spring, mentioning the Big Fix of October 1919; NL president John Heydler kept that quiet. It came up in September only because Rube Benton of the Giants didn't know that Heydler had exonerated Herzog and the others, quietly, earlier. Benton himself was on the stand before the grand jury thanks to Ban Johnson; Benton supposedly had bet on his knowledge of the Big Fix.

The grand jury never subpoenaed Rothstein. Arnold came to Chicago on his own, a pre-emptive strike, and was never indicted.

Abe Attell and Sleepy Bill Burns never made it to the grand jury, either. Attell was indicted, but fled. Burns was brought to Chicago as a star witness for the 1921 trial. But neither went on record in 1920. Billy Maharg did, to a Philadelphia newspaper.

The names of the eight Sox players who were eventually called "the Black Sox" surfaced long before the grand jury. Comiskey withheld their Series checks, and Hugh Fullerton wrote on Oct 10, the day after the Series, that seven of the players would not return the next season -- he was quoting Comiskey, he later revealed. A Chicago paper devoted to gambling printed the names of players and gamblers in Fall 1919, and in December Hugh Fullerton challenged baseball to investigate, naming Attell, Burns, Rothstein, the reporters who knew, and some of the "clean Sox" who might help identify the crooked players.

The Sox were not "vastly underpaid" -- they may have had the highest team payroll in 1919, although they were still probably earning less than they deserved. All players were, thanks to the reserve clause, a weapon wielded by all the owners. Comiskey was probably not exceptionally stingy; he was likely typical. Asinof painted him as Scrooge, but that was not his image in 1919. The Sox who took the bribes were not getting even, they were just trying to get some easy money. Were they any greedier than the owners? We don't know.

Cicotte indeed was the first player to go to the grand jury, voluntarily; they were not going to disrupt the pennant races by asking players to appear. Jackson followed Cicotte, not to confess, but to plead his innocence. Both were advised by Comiskey's lawyer; was he on their side? Well, he had them waive immunity, so they could be indicted; Alfred Austrian was protecting Comiskey. Advised by their own lawyers, the three players who testified to the grand jury all repudiated their statements, a year later. Jackson always denied that he had confessed complicity, and the grand jury foreman said that he heard it that way, too.

Jackson did say he was promised $20,000 and accepted $5,000, but he also said he played every inning of every game to win. Charles Comiskey, who knew more about the Fix than we do, also thought Jackson played the whole Series to win. (So did Buck Weaver. Fred McMulln batted .500 in the Series, 1-for-2.) We can discuss Cicotte for pages.

The "Say it ain't so, Joe" story has many versions. Jackson denied it ever happened. The most colorful and popular version was apparently penned by a reporter in New York at the time. He caught the symbolism, but probably was "embellishing."

Comiskey did not suspend anyone a minute before he had to, and not before indictments were handed up. He was always hopeful the players would be fined or suspended, then return and continue the dynasty he had put together. He never suspended Gandil, Chick chose to stay out west, rather than accept a pay cut, while all the other Sox (clean or soiled) got hefty raises.

The "Clean Sox" indeed celebrated after the cover-up of the Fix ended. But the Sox were never a close-knit team, they had always been cliquish. Ever wonder why none of those Clean Sox ever spoke up, during or after the Series? Or why they testified in the 1921 trial to restore their teammates? I think they took their cues from manager Gleason, and from Comiskey.

The grand jury records indeed disappeared (in December 1919, Ban Johnson was pretty sure. They reappeared later, some of them, from the briefcase of Comiskey's lawyer in 1924, and others in the papers Arnold Rothstein left behind. Teamwork?) But the statements of the players could be recreated from stenographers' notes. What set back the trial were the stolen signed waivers of immunity, and the lack of any evidence regarding conspiracy, which was the crime for which they players were put on trial. There was no law against tossing or fixing games. (Also, before Judge Landis ruled in 1921, it was perfectly OK for players to talk with, eat with, play cards and travel with gamblers. So, Weaver was accused of breaking a law that was made later.)

I suggest that Landis' edict, fair or not, was effective in freeing baseball of the gambling menace, and it instantly improved the game's badly tarnished image. But I don't think it created the "grimy ghost" -- the folks who engineered the cover up of the Fix, and almost succeeded in burying it forever, get credit for that. As long as versions of this story, like yours, continue to focus on "the Black Sox" and "eight men out" -- as if that summed up the scandal -- the grimy ghost lives. Just one final question. Would you also sum up Watergate in a phrase like "Five burglars caught"?

Gene Carney
Utica, NY----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Gene Carney email you all might find entertaining.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Oberjuerge:

I am replying to your recent column, "Sox Still Paying for Past Sins."

I think you are picking unfairly on the White Sox franchise. In 1919, gambling was strangling baseball -- that was the view of reporter Hugh Fullerton, one of the chief whistle-blowers of the Big Fix of that October.

What I want you to think about is this: would you say "Five Burglars Caught" pretty well sums up the Watergate scandal? Yet you refer to "Eight Men Out" as if it documents the sins of 1919. (It has nary a footnote, by the way.) My point? That YES, there was tampering by gamblers in October 1919 -- and plenty before. And some after. Just like the Watergate break-in was a petty crime, but the cover-up a misdeed that cost the country a president -- so was the cover-up of the Fix in 1919 the bigger story. But it went unreported, for lots of reasons.

It was not just Comiskey, protecting his investment, his dynastic Sox. It was also Ban Johnson, still Czar then, and the owners who were turning into millionaires, who hushed it up. For almost a year. You can look it up. Just as no one player could fix a Series, it seems clear to me that Comiskey alone could never have engineered the cover-up without a little help from his friends. So let's not focus the blame only on the Sox.

It will be easier to look up in my book:Burying the Black Sox: How Baseball's Cover-up of the 1919 World Series Fix Almost Succeeded, available March 2006 from Potomac Books, Inc. (www.potomacbooksinc.com ) Maybe they will give you a review copy -- ask Kevin Cuddihy, my editor.

You wrote: "The players, most of them, were jaded and greedy." That may be the case. But so were the baseball authorities, who were informed that the fix was in before Game One, but did nothing to investigate -- because huge turnouts were expected for this best-of-nine series, bringing in record revenues. Baseball's policy was to close its eyes, that was standard procedure. When the players came forward and confirmed that there WAS tampering (bribing -- which was not against any Illinois law at the time -- shocked?), baseball hurried to save its image as a clean sport, by installing an almighty Commissioner who looked like God.

You wrote: "When key players were offered $25,000 each to tank the 1919 World Series, a sum four or five times what they were paid all season by Comiskey . . . they agreed to lay down." I won't quibble, but the original deal was $20,000 each. Lefty Williams was making around $2,500 plus a small bonus. You do the math. I don't think Comiskey was exceptionally Scrooge like, by the way. He was a typical owner. The Sox had one of the game's highest payrolls -- maybe the top! The players just wanted more money, and thought the bribes were worth a shot. Why should Hal Chase have all the fun?R][/COLOR=blue]You wrote: "The conspirators made just enough bad plays to lose the World Series. Cicotte and Williams collaborated to lose all five games in the best-of-nine series." There is a lot of evidence that the Fix was OFF, after Game One or Two -- that is also what the gamblers testified at the trial. Cicotte was supposed to win Game Four, even if the Fix had stayed on; ironically, his own errors cost that game; but he always maintained he was trying to win, and you have to believe his manager thought so, too, because he gave Eddie yet another start in Game Seven. Which he won.

You wrote: "Is it coincidence the White Sox haven't won a World Series since 1919? We think not. The baseball gods have seen to it." I tend to agree with Ozzie Guillen -- the Sox have had (bleeping bad) teams. The Sox carry no curse. The scandal of 1920 is a blot on BASEBALL'S permanent record. The Sox were made an example, to send a message. Fair or not, their sentence of a lifetime ban and disgrace effectively ended gambling's stranglehold. Eight men out -- historian David Voigt calls it the myth of baseball's single sin. The fact that it was a group public hanging, as if all were equally guilty (and the many other players, managers and execs who KNEW, equally innocent), is why this case lingers in history -- begging for justice.

Please -- stop perpetuating the cover story. Baseball is strong enough to take it now, isn't it?

Gene Carney
Utica, NY

www.baseball1.com/carney
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked my friend, Gene, if he could help us reconstruct the timeline. Here is what he wrote back to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My book is at the printer, might be in stores in another month. That will really save me a lot of 'splaining! And it's all documented, so you can consider the trustworthiness of the sources.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Going to Comiskey to beg out of the WS. -- Only Jackson's (and Asinof's)
word for this ... I really pressed Asinfor for the source of his asking to
be bench before Game 1. OK, there's also a story in The Sporting News in
early 1961 out of Greenville that says Joe "begged to be benched."

His first refusal of $10,000, his second refusal of $20,000 -- from
surviving grand jury statement.

His final acquiescence of accepting $20,000, on a wooden bridge -- same,
from GJ ... not sure about "acquiescence" ... have to balance this
interpretation with the "played every game to win" lines.

He received his brown envelope of 100's 50's. Apparently after game #4. --
"Dirty" envelope, all accounts say, and that's important, if Jackson say the
money as tainted. Not clear in GJ testimony, I think Joe & Lefty both said
after Game 4, but also right before leaving for Cincy, which makes it after
Game 5. They later agreed it was later in the Series, or after Game 8. Who
knows?

His attempt to see management at their office, and being denied entrance by
Harry Grabiner. -- This is from the 1924 trial. Grabiner disputed it. Jury
believe Jackson over Harry by 11-1. Jackson had written letters in
off-season, too. See Gropman revised 2nd edition appendices -- great detail.

Both hotel meetings and their names, where the fixers discussed their
plan. -- I never tracked this but I think others have. Frankly, they could
have talked about it everywhere they went. Weaver in the meetings, but
dissenting. Jackson apparently NOT in the meetings.

Hope this helps, I'm in a hurry!

Gene
---------------------------------------------------
And another email, shortly afterwards.

Bill,

>>Could you assist us in reconstructing the timeline of events. <<

Didn't intend to dodge the Timeline thing ... here's my 2 cents on that:

Going to Comiskey to beg out of the WS. -- IF it happened, could've been
several weeks before Series (possibly after Gandil offered the bribes).
Asinof is most insistent that he asked to be benched right before Game 1 (he
had the Fix "confirmed" to him by Bill Burns the AM of Game 1).

His first refusal of $10,000. -- ?? Mid-Sept?

His second refusal of $20,000. His final acquiescence of accepting $20,000,
on a wooden bridge.
-- ?? Late Sept?

He received his brown envelope of 100's 50's. Apparently after game #4.
(Replied previously)

His attempt to see management at their office, and being denied entrance by
Harry Grabiner. -- This would be the AM of Oct 10.

Both hotel meetings and their names, where the fixers discussed their
plan. -- "Both" suggests that there were just 2 planning meetings
(presumably in September), but if there were 4 or 5 syndicates involved and
the players "sold it everywhere they went" (as Attell claimed), then there
were likely more. Are you in the Yahoo B-Sox group? That would be a good
place to ask this. Early on, I toyed with the idea of jotting down hotels,
but never did it. Tried hard to keep focus on big picture. And remember my
main interest was the cover-up, not the fixing. No footnotes, but 8MO might
be a useful source for that aspect.

Gene
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the Special Verdict handed down by the jury in Joe's 1924 civil suit against Charles Comiskey, an "authentic copy" of which was inserted in one of the scrapbooks kept by Katie Jackson. Though it was overturned by the judge on the grounds that Jackson had perjured himself, the answers given in this verdict demonstrate the judgment rendered by a jury sworn to make their decision on all the facts presented at the trial. Apparently, after listening to the testimony, they believed that Jackson had been convinced by Austrian on September 28, 1920, to incriminate himself in the fix. If this is so, and the jury heard the discrepancies between Jackson's grand jury testimony and his testimony in their court room, it follows that they believed he was telling the truth in Milwaukee and had lied in Chicago. Furthermore, the verdict reflects their belief that Jackson's name had in fact been used with the gamblers without his permission.

Joe Jackson, Plaintiff vs. American League Base Ball Club of Chicago, alias, Chicago American League Base Ball Club, Defendant.

Filed February 15, 1924, C. C. Mass. Clerk, Case No. 64772.

Special Verdict:

1. Did the Defendant offer the Plaintiff a sum of money sufficient to make the Plaintiff's share of the World Series receipts, equal to $5000., if the defendant's base ball club won the 1917 pennant? Answer: YES.

2. If you answer Question number 1 "Yes," then answer this Question: Did the Plaintiff rely and act upon such information conveyed to him? Answer: YES.

3. Did Grabiner, at the time of the 1920 contract was signed, represent to the Plaintiff Jackson, that the contract did not contain a ten day clause? Answer: YES

4. If you answer Question number 3 "Yes," then answer this Question: Was the Plaintiff Jackson, induced to sign the 1920 contract in reliance upon such representation? Answer: YES.

5. If you answer Question number 4 "yes," then answer this Question: Did the Plaintiff Jackson, Have a right to rely upon such representation? Answer: YES.

6. Did the Plaintiff Jackson, unlawfully conspire with Gandil, Williams and other members of the White Sox Club, or any of them, to lose or "throw" any of the Base ball games of the 1919 World's Series to the Cincinnati Baseball Club? Answer: NO.

7. If you answer Question number 6 "yes," then answer this Question: Did the Defendant at the time the 1920 contract was signed by Mr. Comiskey about May 1st, 1920, know of the Plaintiff's participation in such conspiracy? Answer: [LEFT BLANK, NO ANSWER RENDERED]

8. Did Williams give Jackson the $5000. before all the games in the 1919 World's Series had been played? Answer: NO.

9. If you answer Question number 8 "No," then answer this Question: At the time Williams gave Jackson the $5000. did he tell Jackson that there had been an agreement between certain of the ball players on the White Sox team to lose or "throw" the games of the World's Series, and that the $5000 was his (Jackson's) share of the money received by the players for their part in the agreement? Answer: NO.

10. If you answer Question number 3 "Yes," then answer this Question: What sum of money will fairly and reasonably compensate the Plaintiff for the defendant's failure to give Plaintiff a contract in accordance with Defendant's representation? Answer: $16,711.04

Attached to Special verdict: "Certificate Number 9530 of authenticity of copy of Special Verdict, 16 February, 1924". Signed by C.C. Mass, Clerk. Fee fifty cents.

Bill Burgess
12-03-2006, 08:15 PM
Read read this article before voting, if you haven't voted yet. It's my argument as to why it seems that baseball is more popular today. Bear in mind that some cities couldn't play baseball on Sundays before 1933. The Pirates/Athletics had no-baseball Sunday blue laws prohibiting it. And don't forget night ball allowed working people to attend many more games also.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=297016&postcount=63

Part of the data that I think Chris (and a lot of other fans) misinterprets is that he reads in Total Baseball that in 1988, 70,589,504 fans attended ML games. And in 1930 only 10,132,262 fans attended ML games.

And in 1909 7,236,990 fans attended ML games.

Year - ML attend.--games--per game

1896 -- 2,900,973 - 1,306---2,221 fans/game.
1897 -- 2,885,631 --- 809---3,566
1898 -- 2,313,375 --- 921---2,111
1899 -- 2,541,485 --- 921---2,759
1900 -- 1,745,490 --- 935---1,866
1901 -- 3,603,615 - 1,913---1,883
1902 -- 3,889,466 - 1,115---3,488
1903 -- 4,735,250 - 1,114---4,250
1904 -- 5,688,299 - 1,872---3,038
1905 -- 5,855,062 - 1,237---4,733
1906 -- 5,719,289 - 1,228---4,657
1907 -- 6,038,984 - 1,233---4,897
1908 -- 7,123,474 - 1,244---5,726
1909 -- 7,236,990 - 1,221---5,927
1910 -- 6,206,447 - 1,249---4,969
1911 -- 6,571,282 - 1,237---5,312
1912 -- 5,999,390 - 1,232---4,869
1913 -- 6,358,336 - 1,234---5,152
1914 -- 4,454,988 - 1,256---3,546
1915 -- 4,864,826 - 1,245---3,907
1916 -- 6,503,519 - 1,247---5,215
1917 -- 5,219,994 - 1,247---4,186
1918 -- 3,080,126 - 1,016---3,031
1919 -- 6,532,439 - 1,118---5,842
1920 -- 9,120,875 - 1,234---7,391
1921 -- 8,607,312 - 1,229---7,003
1926 -- 9,832,982 - 1,234---7,968
1927 -- 9,922,868 - 1,253---7,919
1928 -- 9,102,285 - 1,231---7,394
1929 -- 9,588,183 - 1,229---7,801
1930 - 10,132,262 - 1,234---8,210
1931 -- 8,467,107 - 1,236---6,850
1932 -- 6,974,566 - 1,233---5,556
1933 -- 6,089,031 - 1,226---4,966
1934 -- 6,963,711 - 1,223---5,693
1935 -- 7,345,316 - 1,228---5,981
1936 -- 8,082,613 - 1,238---6,528
1937 -- 8,940,063 - 1,239---7,215
1938 -- 9,006,511 - 1,223---7,364
1939 -- 8,977,779 - 1,231---7,293
1940 -- 9,823,484 - 1,236---7,947
1941 -- 9,689,603 - 1,244---7,789
1942 -- 8,553,569 - 1,224---6,988
1943 -- 7,465,911 - 1,238---6,030
1944 -- 8,772,746 - 1,242---7,063
1945 - 10,841,123 - 1,230---8,813
1946 - 18,523,288 - 1,242--14,914
1947 - 19,874,540 - 1,243--15,989
1948 - 20,920,842 - 1,237--16,912
1949 - 20,215,364 - 1,240--16,302
1950 - 17,462,976 - 1,238--14,105
1951 - 16,126,676 - 1,239--13,015
1952 - 14,633,044 - 1,235--11,848
1953 - 14,383,797 - 1,240--11,599
1954 - 15,935,883 - 1,237--12,882
1955 - 16,617,383 - 1,234--13,466
1956 - 16,543,250 - 1,239--13,352
1957 - 17,015,820 - 1,235--13,777
1958 - 17,460,630 - 1,235--14,138
1959 - 19,143,980 - 1,238--15,463
1960 - 19,911,488 - 1,236--16,109
1970 - 28,747,332 - 1,944--14,787
1979 - 43,550,396 - 2,099--20,748
1990 - 54,823,768 - 2,105--26,044
1992 - 55,872,276 - 2,106--26,530
1993 - 70,256,456 - 2,269--30,963
1994 - 50,010,016 - 1,600--31,543 - (strike)
1995 - 50,469,240 - 2,017--25,021 - (strike)
1996 - 60,097,384 - 2,267--26,509
1998 - 70,589,504 - 2,432--29,025
2000 - 72,748,968 - 2,592--28,066
2003 - 67,630,052 - 2,430--27,831
---------------------------------------------------
Some subjective interpretations:

From 1900-1901, the emergence of the AL, albeit in most NL cities, encouraged a new wave of interest in fans, hence the doubling of ML attendance, but the fans/game remained constant.

By 1909, the ML attendance doubled again, and the fans/game tripled.

In 1918, a war year, the ML season is curtailed to only 130 games, causing total attendance to crash. But the fans/game also tumbles, reflecting the austere national mood. Detroit sports writer, EA Batchelor later wrote, "With kids being killed in the war, it suddenly didn't seem to matter if the Tigers were in 1st. place or last."

By 1919, with the war over, even with the season still shortened to 140 games, total attendance almost doubles from the year before as does fans/game . Fans wanted to put the austerity behind them, and the introduction of the lively balls allows offensive stats to increase, to the fans' delight. Babe Ruth causes a near hysteria with his 29 HRs despite not playing OF full time yet.

In 1920, the gloves come off. Ruth goes to a major media/fan base, destroys the old HR record, the owners had banned the spitball to all but those already using it, and the doctoring of the ball is enforced for the 1st time, allowing offensive stats to explode. The fans dance in the streets. NL attendance also reflects the new era, even without Babe goosing their gate.

In 1921, attendance cools just a little. The fans are unable to susten the white-hot frenzy of 1920, have gotten just a little used to the new hitting spree. Some believe that the 'Black Sox Scandal' is responsible for the slight dropoff in fans attendance, but the fans/game is almost the same, making this a disputed contention. Maybe it had some effect, but the failure of steroids to dampen modern attendance seems to show that fans will put up with almost anything to get their baseball fix.

1930. Offensive soars, attendance follows the curve.

1948. With the war over, and the return of baseball's stars, the economy booms, along with disposable incomes, pushing BB attendance to record levels. It was the good economy putting fresh dollars into cusumer's pockets which gooses the gate, along with the spreading of 'Baseball Under the Lights'.

1953. Attendance drops across the boards. Most attribute the drop to the advent of TV. Brooklyn, with a good team, leads attendance. But some might attribute the drop to latent racism. Impossible to distinguish the effect of either. Maybe a lot to TV, and a little to racism.

By 1960, attendance is back up and about to go higher with the addition of new teams. And teams that move also drive up the gate, as Milwaukee proved.
------------------------------------------------------
Baseball's Popularity

To those who believe that BB is more popular today than in ages past, the subject is far more tricky than anyone can guess on first blush.

Yes, today, the numbers of folks attending games is vast. But is that the way we measure? Let's look deeper.

1. Population growth means there are far more potential fans.

2. Income growth means there are far more fans who can afford to go to games.

3. Bigger stadium means they can squeeze far more fans into the parks. And once inside, the fans will have a better time in a spacious, more comfortable park.

4. Integration means that far more blacks, ethnic fans have a rooting interest in the games.

5. Because of expansion, we need to divide fans/season by the number of teams.

6. Superior transportation means that fans can travel further to get to games. Fans in 1905 actually attended games by horses & buggies. The Model T, allowed a lot more blue-collar workers to own cars. And today, well, who doesn't have a car? Better trains, buses, carpools, etc. helps BB attendance.

7. A huge advantage is night games. Lets workers see games they couldn't before.

8. Today we have no Sunday "blue laws", which previously prohibited teams from playing games on Sundays. That one law helped ruin Connie Mack in the '25-33 era. Penn. refused to grant him a waiver from no-Sunday ball "blue laws", until Nov. 8, 1933.

The following cities received their liberation from no-Sunday baseball games "blue laws" in the following years. Detroit - 1910, Cleveland - 1911, New York - 1919, Boston - 1929, Philadelphia/Pittsburgh - Nov. 8, 1933. Wash. - 1918.

Chicago, Cincinnati and St. Louis permitted Sunday baseball in the 1880s. The National League lifted its ban against playing on Sunday in 1892. Until 1934, there were many one-day jaunts on Sundays to fit in a profitable game. For example, it was not uncommon for the A’s to travel to Cleveland or Washington after their Saturday game and then slide to another city on Monday.

9. Pre -1950 TV era, the media consisted mostly of newspapers, radio, billboards, word of mouth. Since then, we now have infinitely better organized, coordinated media systems to blitz the public. And one should never under-estimate the value of the media to put on the grand old ballyhoo. Works every time. Even tee-shirts, bumper stickers, & the web have an effect.

10. Another important factor in attracting the fans to come out is to have attractive, competitive teams, featuring good players.

Around the turn of the century, BB lacked competitive balance. In the AL, the Browns, Senators, Highlanders, were the weak sisters in the league, upon whom the others beat up on. It was hard for those teams to compete for fans.

In the NL, the Phillies, Braves, Dodgers, Reds, Cards were the weak sisters. The Cubs, Giants, Pirates, were the strong brothers.

And that lack of competitive balance contributed to low attendance. Plus the lack of stars to go all the way around. There were no good stadiums until the Pirates built Forbes Field in 1909. First modern steel/concrete park.

To summarize: A fan in 1905 Pittsburgh/Detroit had little money to go to a games, which were only held in afternoons, where they'd sit on wooden stands, which held around 15,000 fans, enjoyed primitive concessions, facilities, & had to fight rush hour traffic to get home.

The only positive was that games took a lot less time, but the time saved was used up in transit.

The numbers are very slippery.

A factor which slipped by was that BB was much more personally ingrained back then. Fights often broke out in the stands, garbage was rained down on the field if umps gave the "wrong" calls, and every town in American had their own "town 9" and took enormous pride in their teams.

There can be no comparison whatsoever in that the passion of the early century fans for their baseball was way more intense than is seen today. We are much more casual, removed observers. We watch from the comfort of our plush, living rooms; warm, safe, removed, detached.

Those early fans went out in the clean open air, or sat there in the rain, or listened at their radios. I've seen a photo of a burly Brooklyn fan pummeling a burly umpire on the ground. We have our brawls today, but I suspect that they had more. Those fans endured less disposable income, 2 world wars, a depression we can't appreciate, and STILL attended games.

The only way we can fairly compare gate attendance is for us to pare down to 16 teams, take away our disposable incomes, cars, night games, and in some cases Sunday ball. Get rid of our great big, comfortable ballparks, and go back to small "intimate" neighborhood ballparks.

Things are not always what they apper.

Bill Burgess
12-04-2006, 10:34 PM
SABR's 'Baseball Research Journal', 1975, "Home Park Effects on Performance in the American League, by Pete Palmer, pp. 50-60.
It concerns some home/away breakdowns for certain ballparks for some well-known hitters.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=660905&postcount=491

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=660907&postcount=492

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=660908&postcount=493
---------------------------------
SABR's 'Baseball Research Journal', 1980, pp. 45. Defensive Survey by SABR members.

http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=660869&postcount=66

Bill Burgess
12-04-2006, 10:36 PM
Hear the Voices of the First Hall of Fame inductees!

If anyone would like to actually hear Baseball's Hall of Fame Dedication, July 12, 1939, here is the link.

We hear, in order: William G. Bramham (Mayor of Cooperstown), John H. Heydler (Pres. NL), Judge Landis, Ford Frick, Connie Mack, Honus Wagner, Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, George Sisler, Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander, Babe Ruth. It is SUCH a pleasure to actually hear them all talk. Cobb is absent, due to having arrived too late for the photo/introductions. Connie had a thick Boston accent.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/about/history.htm

Sure hope you find their talking as delightful and thrilling as I did!

ENJOY!

Bill Burgess

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:13 PM
Anyone ever wonder who were the greatest 1-2 punch in BB history? Which bruisers were the most feared by opposing pitchers? The following must have given opposing pitchers some sleepless nights.

1. Ruth-Gehrig-Lazzeri
2. Simmons-Foxx-Cochrane
3. Aaron-Mathews
4. Jackson-Lajoie
5. DiMaggio-Gehrig-Dickey
6. Cobb-Crawford-Veach
7. Mantle-Maris
8. Mays-(McCovey,Cepeda)
9. Canseco-McGuire
10. Gehringer-Greenberg
11. Kent-Bonds
12. Snider-Campanella
13. Cobb-Heilmann-(Veach,Fothergill,Manush)
14. Sisler-Williams
15. Rose-Morgan-Bench
16. Wagner-Clarke
17. Hornsby-Hack Wilson
18. Delahanty-Thompson

Does anyone have any additions? I'm sure I've forgotten many. Just to make this a little spicier, if you can think of any 1-2-3 punches, knock yourself out!
---------------------------------------------
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=13889

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Your Best All-Around Outfield Ever:

All-Around, all things considered. Offense, defense, intangibles, etc.

1. Speaker/Lewis/Hooper - 1910-15 - Red Sox - Defense deluxe, with good hitting blended in.

2. Veach/Cobb/Crawford - 1913-16 - Detroit - Offense deluxe, 2 good gloves.

3. Ruth/Combs/Meusel - 1925-29 - Best slugger, good fielder, 2 all time arms.

4. Hamilton/Delahanty/Thompson - 1891-95 - Philadelphia - A runner, 2 hitters.

5. Clarke/Beaumont/Wagner - 1902 - Pittsburgh - wonderful balance of gifts.

6. Jackson/Felsch/Leibold - 1916-20, not '18 - White Sox - 2 great fielders, 1 all time bat.

7. Skinner/Virdon/Clemente - 1957-62 - Pittsburgh - 2 great fielders, 1 wonderful bat.

8. Veach/Cobb/Heilmann - 1916-17, 1921-23 - Detroit - Deluxe offense.

9. Harper/Vada Pinson/F. Robinson - 1962-65 - Cincinatti
---------------------------------------------------
Depending on others to help me on the post-1950 guys.
---------------------------------------
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=23651

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:20 PM
Best All-Time Infield: Form Chart:

All-Around, all things considered, offense, defense, intangibles, etc.

1. McInnis/Collins/Barry/Baker - 1911-14 - Athletics - tight D., 2 great bats, 1 runner.

2. Perez/Morgan/Concepcion/Rose - 1975-78 - Reds - good D., wonderful bats.

3. Tenney/Lowe/Long/Collins - 1897-1901 - Boston Nationals - Fantastic D., nice hitting as a side dish.

4. Anson/Pfeffer/Williamson/Burns - 1883-89 White Stockings - 1 great fielder, 1 great bat.

5. Stovall/Lajoie/Turner/Bradley - 1907-10 - Cleveland - 2 sterling gloves, 1 all time bat.

6. Collins/Frisch/Durocher/Martin - 1933-35 - St. Louis - throwback to 1890's Orioles in rough-house, in your face play.

7. Kelly/Frisch/Bancroft/Groh - 1922-23 - Giants - balanced. McGraw's best combo.

8. Skowron/Richardson/Kubek/Boyer 1960-62 - Yankees - nice balance.

9. Hodges/Robinson/Reese/Cox - 1948-52 - Dodgers - tight D., Cox extraordinary glove. Hits thrown in.

10. Gehrig/Lazzeri/Koenig/Dugan - 1926-28 - Yankees - stern bats.

11. Doyle/Reitz/Jennings/McGraw - 1897 - Baltimore - Balance - McGraw/Jennings worked together from 1894-98.

Just some of the more renouwned ones to start us off. Additions welcomed.

Here is the thread this was taken from so long ago. Hope it gives you guys more options to select from.
----------------------------------------------------------
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=23652

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:23 PM
My Candidates for Best DP Combo Ever:

1. Jack Barry/Eddie Collins - 1909-14 - Athletics - top of elite duos. State of the art defense.

2. Herman Long/Bobby Lowe - 1890-1901 - Boston Nationals

3. Luis Aparicio/Nellie Fox - 1956-62 - White Sox - helped not only on defense, but offense as well.

4. Alan Trammel/Lou Whitaker - 1977-95 - Tigers - entitles to extra bonus points for longevity as duo, plus Trammel's nice offense, and Lou's nice walking.

5. Phil Rizzuto/Joe Gordon - 1941-42 - Yankees - worked too briefly together to rank at top.

6. Max Bishop/Joe Boley - 1927- 30 - Athletics - ably anchored one of very greatest teams.

7. Dick Groat/Bill Mazeroski - 1956-62 - Pirates

8. Glenn Wright/Rabbit Maranville - 1924 - Pirates - worked too briefly together to rank higher.

9. Frank Crosetti/Joe Gordon - 1938-41 - Yankees

10. Everett Scott/Aaron Ward - 1922-24 - Yankees

Honorable Mentions:

11. Tony Lazzeri/Mark Koenig - 1926-28 - Yankees - ably anchored one of very greatest teams.

12. Joe Tinker/Johnny Evers - 1903-12 - Cubs - not as good as the poem suggested, but still anchored fantastic team.

13. Billy Rogell/Charlie Gehringer - 1931-38 - Tigers

14. Dave Bancroft/Frankie Frisch - 1922 - Giants - '20-21 Dave wasn't their reg. SS.

15. Pee Wee Reese/Jackie Robinson - 1948-52 - Dodgers

16. Dave Concepcion/Joe Morgan - 1972-79 - Reds

17. Mark Belanger/Bobby Grich 1972-76 - Orioles

18. Lou Boudreau/Joe Gordon - 1947-50 - Indians

19. Vern Stephans/Bobby Doerr 1948-50 - Red Sox

20. Phil Rizzuto/Jerry Coleman - 1949-51 - Yankees - During 1952-54 Jerry Coleman wasn't the reg. 2B. Only utility 2B off bench.

21. Tony Kubek/Bobby Richardson - 1959-65 - Yankees


Many of the Honorable Mentions also made significant offensive contributions as well as their gloves, such as Gehringer, Robinson and Morgan.

After trying to share some love with the excellent additions of the house. More still welcomed.
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http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=23452

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:24 PM
Your Best Right-Side Infield Ever:


1. Gehringer/Greenberg - 1934-40 - Tigers - great offense, with keystone leather thrown in.

2. Morgan/Perez - 1972-76 - Reds - more great offense.

3. Bagwell/Biggio - 1992-2002 - Astros - nice offense. I give extra bonus points for longevity as a duo.

4. Collins/McInnis - 1911-14 - Athletics - wonderful D., plus a nice bat too.

5. Gehringer/Lu Blue - 1926-27 - Tigers - wonderful D., with some keystone hits thrown in.

6. Hornsby/Terry - 1927 - Giants - mostly hits galore. Terry had fancy footwork, and Rogers is actually a quite good fielder, if you can get past one flaw. Rogers was not named for Will Rogers, as is commonly supposed. His mother's maiden name was Rogers.

7. Sandberg/Grace - 1988-94, 96-97 - Cubs

8. Soriano/Giambi - 2002-03 - Yankees - good pop.

9. Lazzeri/Gehrig - 1926-37 - Yankees - most offense of all. Lou's glove was actually pretty slick. Not Sisler/Terry slick but still . . . very nice leather.

10. Gehringer/Alexander - 1929-31 - Tigers - nice stickwork, with keystone leather blended in.

I actually got 4 duos in there who played post 1970. For me, that is a moral victory.
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http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=23484

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:31 PM
Your Greatest Pitching Staff:

I'm defining this a little differently this time around. I am definding a team's staff as covering a 5 yr. period, and pitchers who posted at least 18 wins. So, what team had the most different 18 games winners, in a 5 yr. window. So, on that specific basis, let the games begin!

1. Philadelphia A's - 1905-1909 - 7 pitchers

1. Rube Waddell, 1905, 1907
2. Chief Bender, 1905, 1909
3. Eddie Plank, 1905, '06, '07, '09
4. Andy Coakley, 1905
5. Jimmy Dygert, 1907
6. Rube Vickers, 1808
7. Harry Krause, 1909

2. New York Yankees - 1920-1924 - 7 pitchers

1. Bob Shawkey, 1920, '21, '22.
2. Joe Bush, 1922, '23
3. Herb Pennock, 1923, '24.
4. Carl Mays, 1921, 1922
5. Sam Jones, 1921, '23
6. Waite Hoyt, 1921, '22, '24
7. John Quinn, 1920

3. Chicago Cubs - 1906-1910 - 7 pitchers

1. Mordecai Brown, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910
2. Ed Reulbach, 1906, 1908, 1909
3. Orval Overall, 1907
4. Carl Lundren, 1907
5. Jack Pfiester, 1906
6. Jack Weiner, 1906
7. King Cole, 1910

4. Pittsburgh Pirates 1905-1909 - 6 pitchers

1. Deacon Phillippe-1905, '06
2. Sam Leever-1905
3. Vic Willis-1906, '07, '08, '09
4. Lefty Lefifield-1906, '07, '09
5. Nick Maddox-1908
6. Howie Camnitz-1909

5. Boston Red Sox - 1915- 1919 - 5 pitchers

1. Babe Ruth, 1915, 1916, 1917
2. Dutch Leonard, 1916
3. Carl Mays, 1916, 1917, 1918
4. Rube Foster, 1915
5. Ernie Shore, 1915


6. Atlanta Braves - 1996-2000 - 5 pitchers

1.Denny Neagle, 1997
2.Greg Maddux, 1997, '98, '99, '00
3.Tom Glavine, 1998, '00
4.Kevin Milwood, 1999
5.John Smoltz, 1996

7. Philadelphia A's - 1910-1914 - 4 pitchers


1. Cy Morgan, 1910
2. Jack Coombs, 1910, 1911, 1912
3. Chief Bender, 1910, 1913
4. Eddie Plank, 1912, 1913, 1914

8. Philadelphia Athletics - 1928-1932 - 4 pitchers
1.Lefty Grove-1928, '29, '30, '31, '32
2.Jack Quinn-1928
3.George Earnshaw-1929, '30, '31, '32
4.Rube Walberg-1929, '31

9. Chicago White Sox - 1919-1923 - 4 pitchers

1. Eddie Cicotte-1919, '20
2. Lety Williams-1919, '20
3. Red Faber-1920, '21, '22
4. Dickie Kerr-1920


Any additions? Any teams with 4 18 games winners within a 5 yr. period?
From 1962-66, the Dodgers had only Drysdale and Koufax win 18 games.
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http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=23669

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:33 PM
My Candidates For My Most Lethal Lineup Possible Are:

1. Sisler, 1B
2. Hornsby, 2B
3. Cobb, LF
4. Ruth, RF
5. Williams, DH
6. Joe Jackson, CF
7. Wagner, SS
8. Schmidt, 3B
9. Piazza, C

It was painful to leave off Gehrig and E. Collins.
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http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=23147

Bill Burgess
06-07-2007, 04:35 PM
I have always believed that the Hall of Fame was created to honor BB's truly great players, not its merely very good players.

And in my opinion, in order to be called truly great, for position players, one needs to hit well. But that does leave a vacuum for the great defensive players, who did not hit well.

To partially remedy that vacuum at the Hall of Fame, I advocate that a permanent exibit be created to show the photographs and accomplishments of the fielding wizards of the game. Men such as:

C - Charlie Bennett, Martin Bergen, Bill Bergen, Jimmie Archer, Ray Schalk, Johnny Kling

1B - Stuffy McGinnis, Babe Dahlen, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Keith Hernandez

2B - Bid McPhee, George Cutshaw, Joe Gordon

SS - Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, Bobby Wallace, Glenn Wright, Marty Marion, Rabbit Maranville.

3B - Willie Kamm, Ossie Bluege, Billy Cox,

OF - Bill Lange, Jimmie McAleer, Johnny Mostil, Clyde Milan, Andrew Jones, Tori Hunter, Dummie Hoy, Jimmie Piersal, Duffy Lewis, Harry Hooper, Joe Jackson, Burt Shotton, Happy Felsch, Dom/Vince DiMaggio, Max Carey.


This is in no way intended to be a thorough list. More fun letting others fill in the gaps. This would also give BB an alternative to inducting great fielders like Maz & Wizard, who were not truly great players. But no induction ceremonies, no plaques, no PR hype. A true alternative, not a backdoor exercise.

These guys would be like the sports writers, sports announcers, negro leaguers, and women in their own former league. None of these categories is technically accepted as Hall of Famers.

But . . . their mere presence in the building lets the public see them that way in a de facto way. Any opinions anybody
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http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=19968

Bill Burgess
07-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Need to bump this up to transfer posts to Ty Cobb Thread.

steelcurtain76
07-20-2008, 07:49 PM
Hear the Voices of the First Hall of Fame inductees!

If anyone would like to actually hear Baseball's Hall of Fame Dedication, July 12, 1939, here is the link.

We hear, in order: William G. Bramham (Mayor of Cooperstown), John H. Heydler (Pres. NL), Judge Landis, Ford Frick, Connie Mack, Honus Wagner, Tris Speaker, Nap Lajoie, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, George Sisler, Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander, Babe Ruth. It is SUCH a pleasure to actually hear them all talk. Cobb is absent, due to having arrived too late for the photo/introductions. Connie had a thick Boston accent.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/about/history.htm

Sure hope you find their talking as delightful and thrilling as I did!

ENJOY!

Bill Burgess

Bill,

I get a message that this page no longer exists at the HOF site. Do you know of another link for this audio?

Bill Burgess
07-20-2008, 08:41 PM
Bill,

I get a message that this page no longer exists at the HOF site. Do you know of another link for this audio?
I wish I did. I was told last year that they were going to restore the link, but so far, I haven't seen it.