My Top 100

[Murderers Row]

I posted this in the Positional Adjustment thread. I'm going to make a thread on it and hopefully get some more opinions. Thanks.


Player
1 Babe Ruth

2 Ty Cobb

3 Walter Johnson

4 Ted Williams

5 Honus Wagner

6 Rogers Hornsby

7 Lou Gehrig

8 Stan Musial

9 Mickey Mantle

10 Willie Mays

11 Barry Bonds

12 Tris Speaker

13 Hank Aaron

14 Cy Young

15 Roger Clemens
16 Eddie Collins

17 Pete Alexander

18 Joe DiMaggio

19 Mike Schmidt

20 Lefty Grove

21 Mel Ott

22 Jimmie Foxx

23 Frank Robinson

24 Rickey Henderson

25 Alex Rodriguez

26 Eddie Matthews

27 Joe Morgan

28 Greg Maddux

29 Nap Lajoie

30 Tom Seaver

31 Rhandy Johnson
32 Christy Matthewson

33 Johnny Mize

34 Arky Vaughn

35 Joe Jackson

36 Hank Greenberg

37 Pedro Martinez

38 Frank Thomas

39 Jeff Bagwell

40 Yogi Berra

41 George Brett

42 Sam Crawford

43 Bill Dickey

44 Charlie Gehringer
45 Carl Yastrzemski

46 Johnny Bench
47 Bob Feller

48 Jackie Robinson

49 Wade Boggs

50 Mike Piazza

51 Reggie Jackson

52 Ken Griffey Jr

53 Mark McGwire

54 Tony Gwynn

55 Willie McCovey
56 Mickey Cochrane

57 Manny Ramirez
58 Al Simmons
59 Duke Snider

60 Warren Spahn

61 Harmon Killibrew

62 Rod Carew

63 Gary Sheffield

64 Whitey Ford

65 Paul Waner

66 Willie Stargell

67 Ed Walsh

68 Joe Cronin

69 Frank Baker

70 Jim Thome

71 Al Kaline

72 Tim Raines

73 Carl Hubbell

74 Pete Rose

75 Roberto Alomar

76 Dick Allen

77 Eddie Murray

78 Edgar Martinez

79 Paul Molitor

80 Luke Appling

81 Gabby Hartnett

82 Barry Larkin

83 Mordeci Brown

84 Craig Biggio

85 Cal Ripken

86 Robin Yount

87 Hoyt Wilhelm

88 Mariano Rivera

89 Dave Winfield

90 Ernie Banks

91 Roberto Clemente

92 Ralph Kiner

93 Jim Palmer

94 Steve Carlton

95 Ron Santo

96 Stan Hack

97 Billy Williams

98 Carlton Fisk

99 Bobby Grich

100 Frankie Frisch

[Goooooo]

You're top ten has way too many players who played in weak leagues. I like the numbers myself but they are skewed and don't adjust for the gargantuan difference in league quality. Read a book called the numbers game, players like cobb, anson, etc etc numbers weren't even legitimate. They got a huge boost in BA by the league authorities for they can make more $$$. It had to do with popularity. It's been suspected for years.

[Wade8813]

What criterion did you use?

[Murderers Row]

What criterion did you use?

Batting Runs, Fielding Runs, OPS+, Batting plus fielding wins, Win Shares, Fielding Winshares.

Pitching Runs, Pitching Wins, Winning %, IP/G, ERA+

I barely used raw stats.

[Murderers Row]

You're top ten has way too many players who played in weak leagues. I like the numbers myself but they are skewed and don't adjust for the gargantuan difference in league quality. Read a book called the numbers game, players like cobb, anson, etc etc numbers weren't even legitimate. They got a huge boost in BA by the league authorities for they can make more $$$. It had to do with popularity. It's been suspected for years.


I read baseball's all time best sluggers.

Weren't you the guy who was comparing college pitchers to the average pitcher of the 30's?

[Murderers Row]

You're top ten has way too many players who played in weak leagues. I like the numbers myself but they are skewed and don't adjust for the gargantuan difference in league quality. Read a book called the numbers game, players like cobb, anson, etc etc numbers weren't even legitimate. They got a huge boost in BA by the league authorities for they can make more $$$. It had to do with popularity. It's been suspected for years.

BTW, it's your, not you're.

[Goooooo]

I read baseball's all time best sluggers.

Weren't you the guy who was comparing college pitchers to the average pitcher of the 30's?

Schell's worked is flawed. It's not worth the $15 at all. And I was the guy comparing college pitchers to the average pitchers of the 1930's, so what?

[Murderers Row]

Schell's worked is flawed. It's not worth the $15 at all. And I was the guy comparing college pitchers to the average pitchers of the 1930's, so what?

Why is Schells work flawed?

I remember you saying some pretty ridiculous things.

[Wade8813]

What criterion did you use?


Batting Runs, Fielding Runs, OPS+, Batting plus fielding wins, Win Shares, Fielding Winshares.

Pitching Runs, Pitching Wins, Winning %, IP/G, ERA+

I barely used raw stats.

Single Season? Career?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Murderers,

Take this for what you will since I'm not huge into ratings, and you including pitchers adds a little twist to it, but the ones that jumped out to me were:

Ted Williams too high - if this is about all-around players. Even Teddy B's incredible hitting can't make up that much ground imo. I would probably switch Williams with Mays.

Mantle is slightly too high for my taste. What an amazing peak he had though.

You have Ott as the 16th greatest position player ever, ahead of guys like Robinson and Henderson?

I like that you have Ripken low, but that might be a little too low.

[Murderers Row]

Single Season? Career?


3 year peak.

5 year peak.

Career.

[Murderers Row]

Murderers,

Take this for what you will since I'm not huge into ratings, and you including pitchers adds a little twist to it, but the ones that jumped out to me were:

Ted Williams too high - if this is about all-around players. Even Teddy B's incredible hitting can't make up that much ground imo. I would probably switch Williams with Mays.

Mantle is slightly too high for my taste. What an amazing peak he had though.

You have Ott as the 16th greatest position player ever, ahead of guys like Robinson and Henderson?

I like that you have Ripken low, but that might be a little too low.

IMO, Williams hitting does make up for his average defense.

Ott is basically equal to Frank Robinson. If you'd rather take Rickey over Ott I'd have no problem with it.

Mantle had a ridiculous peak. Drew a TON of walks. Grounded into 1 double play per 71 AB, which is unheard of for a power hitter, and stole bases at 80% clip which is also great for a power hitter. Mantle was one quoted saying that he could steal 1000 bases if he knew people cared about them that much.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Mantle had a ridiculous peak. Drew a TON of walks. Grounded into 1 double play per 71 AB, which is unheard of for a power hitter, and stole bases at 80% clip which is also great for a power hitter. Mantle was one quoted saying that he could steal 1000 bases if he knew people cared about them that much.

I believe he also said he could have done 40/40 if he knew it would be such a big deal. I believe him.

We know that Mantle was a freak. He was no ordinary "power hitter." He was an incredibly talented centerfielder who happened to hit for power.

Since when did number of DP grounded into become a main factor though? Now I'm curious. Do you know how many fly balls, pop ups, lineouts, strikeouts and slow rollers he hit per 71 AB? Isn't it possible that on top of his amazing speed, he also just had more instances where his at bats resulted in balls that double plays couldn't be turned on. Just a thought.

[Murderers Row]

[QUOTE=Sultan_1895-1948

Since when did number of DP grounded into become a main factor though? Now I'm curious. Do you know how many fly balls, pop ups, lineouts, strikeouts and slow rollers he hit per 71 AB? Isn't it possible that on top of his amazing speed, he also just had more instances where his at bats resulted in balls that double plays couldn't be turned on. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

DP is not a main factor. Fly balls, pop ups, line outs, strikeouts, and slow rollers count as one out. DP's count as two, obviously. DP usually kill an inning. It's just so rare that a hitter like Mantle hit into to so few DP, which means he made a lot less outs than most power hitters did/do.

[baseballPAP]

Pretty fair list, though I see Mays a bit low, and could pick(a little) fault with many more. You seem to have a good handle on the reasons behind your ratings, and to me that is the key to a good list.