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Sultan_1895-1948
08-17-2006, 02:04 AM
Ok, this is only my second "vs" thread (Bench vs Gibson). Wanted to get all your takes on who was better. Foster or Goslin.

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Here's what James says about Goslin in his 1985 book....

"One of the really good ones; one of the few stars of his era who was every bit as good as his numbers. He turned in 100 RBI seasons like clockwork for 15 years, had outstanding speed, a powerful arm, and good strike zone judgement. In what should have been his best years, the years 1923-1929, he played in Griffith Stadium in Washington, an impossible home run park, which probably kept him from driving in 150 runs per year.
(In 1926 he hit 17 home runs and his total for those seven years was 22 home runs at home, 82 on the road.)

Goslin played regularly on five American League Champion teams, which is remarkable in view of the fact the he never played for either of the dominant teams of the time, the Yankees or Athletics. He played for the Senators in 1924-25, was traded away but rejoined them in 1933, when they won it again, and then was traded to the Tigers, where he had a couple more 100-RBI seasons to help the Tigers get where they needed to go.

Goslin had the skills that we would usually associate with an outstanding right fielder, and he played that position later in his career. He played left field most of his life for two reasons: (1) The Senators had another Hall of Famer in right, Sam Rice, and (2) It was 401 feet to left field in Griffith Park.

All the markers are positive.

He did everything well, he was consistent at it for a long period of time, and he helped his teams win. He has to be one of the top 100."

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Some numbers.....


Top 3 win share season

Goslin - 93
Foster - 87

Top 5 win share seasons

Goslin - 147
Foster - 132

Career win shares

Goslin - 355
Foster - 269

RC/162

Goslin - 25.14
Foster - 22.04

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Some Goslin numbers to consider.....


Career AB

Home - 4180
Away - 4476

Runs

home - 727
away - 755

Hits

Home - 1296
Away - 1439

Doubles

Home 252
Away 248

Triples

Home - 99
Away - 74

Home runs

Home - 92
Away - 156

RBI

Home - 765
Away - 844

Walks

Home - 501
Away - 448

BA

Home - .310
Away - .321

Home runs: 1921 to early '30

Home - 27
Away - 88

Triples

Home - 74
Away - 41

BA: 1922-1929

Home - .320
Away - .341

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Some things on Foster........

In 1977, he became the tenth major leaguer to hit 50 home runs in a season, and the first to do it since Willie Mays in '65. That same year he had 149 RBI, falling one short of becoming the first player since Tommie Davis ('62) to have 150 RBI in a season.

In a six year span ('76-'81), Foster led the NL once, was second once, and was third three times in slugging average. He also led the league once, was second once, and was third twice in total bases.

He had the highest single season HR total and highest single season RBI total in the 1970's.

He led the NL in RBI in three consecutive seasons ('76-'78) and he remained in the 90's for the next three seasons including the shortened strike season.

He won the MVP in '77 and finished second once, third once, sixth once, and 12th once.

He played in five all-star games and won the all-star game MVP in '76.

He won a silver slugger award in '81.

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Thoughts?....

leecemark
08-17-2006, 06:03 AM
--My thought is "why these two guys?". Goslin is a solid Hall of Famer. Foster never (or seldom) gets mentioned as a candidate. Nor should he. He had a Hall of Fame type peak, but it was pretty brief and he tanked really hard and fast. I'd be surprised if Foster gets a vote.

baseballPAP
08-17-2006, 06:28 AM
Those who make strong era adjustments might lean towards George....or maybe those Big Red Machine fans....wait, I'm one of those, and I voted Goslin with hardly a thought :)

538280
08-17-2006, 07:46 AM
Is this a test to see how extreme LQ adjustments have gotten? No, really, Goslin is in the HOF and deserves it and Foster shouldn't be even close.

Sultan_1895-1948
08-17-2006, 12:41 PM
Well, Goose gets no love and I just wanted to see where he stood with Fever. Guess Foster was the wrong guy to choose for a measuring stick, since this appears to be a complete blow-out. Back to the drawing board... :o

Chris, do you know why James moved Goose from his #4 left-fielder to wherever he is now. He did move him down quite a bit, right?

KCGHOST
08-17-2006, 12:47 PM
The Goose is Loose!!

538280
08-17-2006, 04:51 PM
Well, Goose gets no love and I just wanted to see where he stood with Fever. Guess Foster was the wrong guy to choose for a measuring stick, since this appears to be a complete blow-out. Back to the drawing board... :o

Chris, do you know why James moved Goose from his #4 left-fielder to wherever he is now. He did move him down quite a bit, right?

Well, his Win Shares system was not very impressed with Goslin at all, particularly for his peak. I suspect that James was getting caught up too much in the though about the park killing him before, and his RBI are impressive, something that with Win Shares he didn't pay much attention to anymore (as he shouldn't).

RuthMayBond
08-17-2006, 05:15 PM
Well, Goose gets no love and I just wanted to see where he stood with Fever. Guess Foster was the wrong guy to choose for a measuring stick, since this appears to be a complete blow-out. Back to the drawing board... :o You should try Wheat ,maybe O'Rourke or Sheckard.
Or if you feel LF & RF are comparable positions, maybe Sosa / Reggie Smith / Keeler

Sultan_1895-1948
08-17-2006, 05:23 PM
Well, his Win Shares system was not very impressed with Goslin at all, particularly for his peak. I suspect that James was getting caught up too much in the though about the park killing him before, and his RBI are impressive, something that with Win Shares he didn't pay much attention to anymore (as he shouldn't).

As well he should. That park did kill him, and nothing has changed since. The RBI thing makes some sense. So James used to include RBI in win shares and now he doesn't? Still, the move from #4 to like #15 or whatever it is now is pretty brutal.

Sultan_1895-1948
08-17-2006, 05:26 PM
You should try Wheat ,maybe O'Rourke or Sheckard.
Or if you feel LF & RF are comparable positions, maybe Sosa / Reggie Smith / Keeler

Hmmm....Sosa might be good. Put him in Griffith with no PED's and he might struggle to hit 200 career homers (although his triple numbers would be very high).

538280
08-17-2006, 05:33 PM
As well he should. That park did kill him, and nothing has changed since. The RBI thing makes some sense. So James used to include RBI in win shares and now he doesn't? Still, the move from #4 to like #15 or whatever it is now is pretty brutal.

No, RBI was never included in Win Shares. The Win Shares system gave him accurate value approximations, which he did not have before, and he realized that despite the plethora of 100 RBI seasons Goslin was not a tremendously great player. He did not have the WS system for his first Abstract. It is also important to remember on his ranking of Goslin that he slipped in some post 1986 guys who had their careers between his Abstracts ahead of him, like Barry Bonds and Rickey Henderson to name two.

About the park, it killed him for HRs. I onced showed his home/road splits and they actually reveal that he did quite a bit better in doubles and triples at home. His SLG was still affected but not IMO to the proportion that it's been stated.

Also, he spent a good amount of his career in Sportsman's Park and Tiger Stadium, both friendly hitting parks. Overall, these are the LH factors for all the parks he played in:



YEAR LEAGUE TEAM Team_ID PARK_ID Park 1B_L 2B_L 3B_L HR_L
1921 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 102 102 104 40
1922 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 110 94 96 22
1923 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 100 100 100 38
1924 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 102 100 102 20
1925 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 102 98 104 32
1926 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 110 104 104 30
1927 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 100 83 138 76
1928 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 103 90 115 58
1929 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 110 95 106 55
1930 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 99 92 100 58
1930 AL STL StL_Bro STL07 Sportsman's Park III 120 145 120 119
1931 AL STL StL_Bro STL07 Sportsman's Park III 105 101 101 130
1932 AL STL StL_Bro STL07 Sportsman's Park III 105 120 95 146
1933 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 90 88 158 32
1934 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 100 100 101 50
1935 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 94 94 96 80
1936 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 92 100 77 131
1937 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 104 106 100 148
1938 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 105 105 105 55

Goslin certianly did have it tough, no doubt about it, but I don't see why the park factors aren't adjustments enough.

flash143817
08-17-2006, 06:49 PM
Definitely taking Goose here.


Noticed one thing though in the pictures, Foster didn't have batting gloves and this was presumably taken in the late '70s. When did it start where basically all players wore batting gloves?

Sultan_1895-1948
08-17-2006, 07:02 PM
No, RBI was never included in Win Shares. The Win Shares system gave him accurate value approximations, which he did not have before, and he realized that despite the plethora of 100 RBI seasons Goslin was not a tremendously great player. He did not have the WS system for his first Abstract. It is also important to remember on his ranking of Goslin that he slipped in some post 1986 guys who had their careers between his Abstracts ahead of him, like Barry Bonds and Rickey Henderson to name two.

About the park, it killed him for HRs. I onced showed his home/road splits and they actually reveal that he did quite a bit better in doubles and triples at home. His SLG was still affected but not IMO to the proportion that it's been stated.

Also, he spent a good amount of his career in Sportsman's Park and Tiger Stadium, both friendly hitting parks. Overall, these are the LH factors for all the parks he played in:



YEAR LEAGUE TEAM Team_ID PARK_ID Park 1B_L 2B_L 3B_L HR_L
1921 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 102 102 104 40
1922 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 110 94 96 22
1923 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 100 100 100 38
1924 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 102 100 102 20
1925 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 102 98 104 32
1926 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 110 104 104 30
1927 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 100 83 138 76
1928 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 103 90 115 58
1929 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 110 95 106 55
1930 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 99 92 100 58
1930 AL STL StL_Bro STL07 Sportsman's Park III 120 145 120 119
1931 AL STL StL_Bro STL07 Sportsman's Park III 105 101 101 130
1932 AL STL StL_Bro STL07 Sportsman's Park III 105 120 95 146
1933 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 90 88 158 32
1934 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 100 100 101 50
1935 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 94 94 96 80
1936 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 92 100 77 131
1937 AL DET Det_Tig DET04 Tiger Stadium 104 106 100 148
1938 AL WAS Was_Sen WAS09A Griffith Stadium I 105 105 105 55

Goslin certianly did have it tough, no doubt about it, but I don't see why the park factors aren't adjustments enough.

Are you seriously trying to downplay how much Griffith hurt him Chris? Should he have have made an adjustment (like you think DiMag should have) and learned to hit the ball the other way 400 feet down the left field line? Where do you think pitchers were working him at home....away, away, away...why would they let one of the only guys in the lineup who could hurt them, and also happened to be left handed, hurt them. Right field was 320 and right center was 378 I believe, and there was a 30 foot (seven feet shorter than the green monster) wall that extended all the way out.

I would be curious how much Ruth and Gehrig alone affected Griffith's park factors for lefties. Not everyone was them.

538280
08-17-2006, 07:05 PM
Are you seriously trying to downplay how much Griffith hurt him Chris? Should he have have made an adjustment (like you think DiMag should have) and learned to hit the ball the other way 400 feet down the left field line? Where do you think pitchers were working him at home....away, away, away...why would they let one of the only guys in the lineup who could hurt them, and also happened to be left handed, hurt them. Right field was 320 and right center was 378 I believe, and there was a 30 foot (seven feet shorter than the green monster) wall that extended all the way out.

Griffith certainly killed him for HRs, but he did better with 2Bs and 3Bs there. I showed the splits once.


I would be curious how much Ruth and Gehrig alone affected Griffith's park factors for lefties. Not everyone was them.

Don't know. If they did it still didn't come out that bad though, those HR factors are pretty tough. It was good for singles though.

Sultan_1895-1948
08-17-2006, 07:09 PM
Griffith certainly killed him for HRs, but he did better with 2Bs and 3Bs there. I showed the splits once.


Didn't you read the first post. I put down his home/road numbers. Just don't downplay that horrible park by saying it was good for singles and triples. That's no consolation prize. Of course it was good for singles; tons of room in the outfield thanks to the huge park, and for triples you either had to kill it or put in in a gap and run like the wind.

538280
08-17-2006, 07:13 PM
Didn't you read the first post. I put down his home/road numbers. Just don't downplay that horrible park by saying it was good for singles and triples. That's no consolation prize. Of course it was good for singles; tons of room in the outfield thanks to the huge park, and for triples you either had to kill it or put in in a gap and run like the wind.

I am not saying it didn't hurt him. I'm saying that he also played in hitter's parks in his career, and the park also was pretty good for other things.

scribe114
08-18-2006, 01:30 PM
Also, he spent a good amount of his career in Sportsman's Park and Tiger Stadium, both friendly hitting parks. Overall, these are the LH factors for all the parks he played in:


Goslin's power numbers were effected in Detroit in 1934 and 1935 the same way Cochrane's were Cochrane dropped from 15 HR's to 2 in his 1st seaon in Detroit.

Navin Field was 367 down the RF line before it was reconfigured before opening day 1936 to 325 with the 10 foot overhang and the 370 and 414 power alleys (CF was 400) Goslin hitting cleanup for the entire seasoon proceeded to hit 24 bombs in '36 (Only 9 in 1935) The other LH hitters in the lineup during that period had very little power JoJo White, Rogell was a switch-hitter.

Gehringer the other LH bat was just Gehringer. He hit as many homers on the road as he did in Detroit for his career (92/92)

The standard dimensions for Briggs Stadium went into effect for opening day 1938, by then Goose was doing his swan song in Washington

340 LF
365 LCF
400 Deep LCF
440 CF
415 Deep RCF
370 RCF
325 RF (The 315 marker was on the facing of the RF upper deck until the mid 1940's)