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DoubleX
11-02-2006, 02:59 PM
The 2006 AL Gold Glove Winners were just announced. Here's a link to the MLB.com article. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061102&content_id=1729529&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

The winners are (with their total Glove Glove wins in parentheses):

C: Ivan Rodriguez (12)
1B: Mark Teixeira (2)
2B: Mark Grudielanek (1)
SS: Derek Jeter (3)
3B: Eric Chavez (6)
OF: Torii Hunter (6)
OF: Ichiro Suzuki (6)
OF: Vernon Wells (3)
P: Kenny Rogers (5)

So let the debates begin. I'm sure the biggest will probably be about Derek Jeter. I was surprised Jeter won this year because there has been so much talk out there about how he's overrated defensively, and I believe defensive metrics are started to take hold a little bit more and filtering in the main stream. I thought by now, the discussion of Jeter being overrated defensively had become too big to igore. Nevertheless, the writers went for him again.

Zito75
11-02-2006, 03:07 PM
As much as I hate Jeter, I'd give it to him over Tejada.

Waitinfor27
11-02-2006, 03:09 PM
I agree with all but two. Chien-Ming Wang had as good a year as any defensively on the mound, and Mike Lowell and Joe Crede were both incredible at third base, much better than Chavez. The problem is, after you give a player a Gold Glove for several years in a row, it looks weird when you don't see their name next to it anymore.

AznInvasion
11-02-2006, 03:10 PM
Gary Matthews Jr. is snubbed in my opinion although the 3 up there are very good as well. He doesn't deserve to be left out though.

Evangelion
11-02-2006, 03:33 PM
Chavez was good, even though his offensive totals were awful. It was a toss up between Chavez, Lowell and Crede, either won it, it was well deserved.

I would get into the Jeter debate, but I'll do that in a topic in the Yankee forum instead of making this "Why Jeter won?" topic. A-Gone was by far the best SS in MLB.

rockin500
11-02-2006, 03:37 PM
The 2006 AL Gold Glove Winners were just announced. Here's a link to the MLB.com article. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061102&content_id=1729529&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

The winners are (with their total Glove Glove wins in parentheses):

C: Ivan Rodriguez (12)
1B: Mark Teixeira (2)
2B: Mark Grudielanek (1)
SS: Derek Jeter (3)
3B: Eric Chavez (6)
OF: Torii Hunter (6)
OF: Ichiro Suzuki (6)
OF: Vernon Wells (3)
P: Kenny Rogers (5)

So let the debates begin. I'm sure the biggest will probably be about Derek Jeter. I was surprised Jeter won this year because there has been so much talk out there about how he's overrated defensively, and I believe defensive metrics are started to take hold a little bit more and filtering in the main stream. I thought by now, the discussion of Jeter being overrated defensively had become too big to igore. Nevertheless, the writers went for him again.
arent gold gloves decided by coaches and managers? because i remember hearing that ozzie would vote for alex rodriguez in order for crede to win.

mwiggins
11-02-2006, 03:49 PM
How did Hunter win again? Mostly due to injuries he was almost a defensive liability for a good part of the year. He was no where near the fielder he was in 2000-2003.

Evangelion
11-02-2006, 04:26 PM
I'm shocked Hunter played 147 games. I thought he missed more time. Hunter won the award due to his name, like most people won the GG.

While I thought I could agrue Jeter for the award, I can't. Just look at all the SS this season and you'll understand. A-Gone missed 51 games last season, but I still would have gave him the award myself since SS of this crop were not that good and A-Gone was just that much better than the next SS.

Mattingly
11-02-2006, 04:33 PM
While I thought I could agrue Jeter for the award, I can't. Just look at all the SS this season and you'll understand. A-Gone missed 51 games last season, but I still would have gave him the award myself since SS of this crop were not that good and A-Gone was just that much better than the next SS.
Playing Devil's Advocate here (or whatever it is they call it), even if Alex Gonzalez is, as many believe, a better fielding SS, what's the likelihood he'll actually get this over a bigger name SS? What I'm asking is, does this seem like a popularity contest, like how some view the MVP?

EvanAparra
11-02-2006, 04:35 PM
Playing Devil's Advocate here (or whatever it is they call it), even if Alex Gonzalez is, as many believe, a better fielding SS, what's the likelihood he'll actually get this over a bigger name SS? What I'm asking is, does this seem like a popularity contest, like how some view the MVP?

It seems to be turning more and more into a popularity contest. Although MOST of the time, the deserving players do win.

Evangelion
11-02-2006, 04:44 PM
GG been a popularity contest. Palmeiro?

A-Gone still played in a big market. In this regard, Jeter played most of the season and had an "MVP" season, which likely helped since people likely think he's playing the field well, even though most inform people know that's not true and he's slighty better than average. Jeter win the award when he's slighty worst, even or slighty better than the next person who should win the award.

If A-Gone played the entire season and Jeter still won, I won't have been surprised, but people that voted for Jeter can't justify his selection if A-Gone did play the entire season and had 7-8 errors at SS, which was completely possible for him.

Popularity contest? You could say that, but when human beings are involved, bias is unavoidable. Even the person that feel he's the most unbias person in the world will show some form of bias toward the team or player he or she cheer and root for.

RuthMayBond
11-02-2006, 04:48 PM
Popularity contest? You could say that, but when human beings are involved, bias is unavoidable. Even the person that feel he's the most unbias person in the world will show some form of bias toward the team or player he or she cheer and root for.I didn't vote for any Indians.

Mattingly
11-02-2006, 04:49 PM
It seems to be turning more and more into a popularity contest. Although MOST of the time, the deserving players do win.
I'll just outright ask the silly question that's on my mind. Thump me upside the head if it's too silly.

If a higher-profile player who's also a much better hitter (Jeter) plays about the same number of games (say 150-155) than the slicker fielder (Gonzalez), do you think that the voters would still most likely give the higher profile player the award mostly based upon name recognition?

As to Raffy, that thing was an absolute farce, as he'd played 135 games as a DH, only about 28 as a 1Bman.

EvanAparra
11-02-2006, 04:51 PM
I'll just outright ask the silly question that's on my mind. Thump me upside the head if it's too silly.

If a higher-profile player who's also a much better hitter (Jeter) plays about the same number of games (say 150-155) than the slicker fielder (Gonzalez), do you think that the voters would still most likely give the higher profile player the award mostly based upon name recognition?

As to Raffy, that thing was an absolute farce, as he'd played 135 games as a DH, only about 28 as a 1Bman.

Probably, and unfortunately. If people still want to call Jeter UNDERrated after these two awards (hank aaron) they are just going to look silly. Gonzalez was a better fielder, but Jeter has the bigger name, plays for the Yanks, and has a great bat. So he wins.

The Kid
11-02-2006, 05:10 PM
It seems to be turning more and more into a popularity contest. Although MOST of the time, the deserving players do win.

Not this time. Alex Gonzalez deserved the glove way more than Jeter. I look at this year's gold glove infeild, and i just have one word: Bullcrap.:grouchy

Evangelion
11-02-2006, 05:23 PM
Not this time. Alex Gonzalez deserved the glove way more than Jeter. I look at this year's gold glove infeild, and i just have one word: Bullcrap.:grouchy
Yes, A-Gone did miss 51 games of 162 game season. He played well enough to deserve it, but didn't play enough games. I'm not sure how you or any Sox fan can argue this point.

DoubleX
11-02-2006, 06:04 PM
Yes, A-Gone did miss 51 games of 162 game season. He played well enough to deserve it, but didn't play enough games. I'm not sure how you or any Sox fan can argue this point.

You could argue the Palmeiro precedent in which he won the '99 Gold Glove despite just 28 games at 1B.

Couple of questions for everyone. I may have been mistaken in attributing the Gold Glove to the writers. How are the Gold Gloves determined? Players and coaches? Writers? Some combination?

Also, anyone think that Mauer deserved the award of Ivan Rodriguez? Mauer had a good case last year as well (and likely much better than the winner, Jason Varitek).

cardsfanatic
11-02-2006, 06:16 PM
Nevertheless, the writers went for him again.

The writers do not vote for gold glove awards. Players and Managers vote on them.

Chisox73
11-02-2006, 06:19 PM
Personally,I thought Joe Crede should have gotten the nod at 3rd base.But 3rd base was a tough call with Crede,Chavez,Mike Lowell,and Brandon Inge.

IAmSmarterThanYou
11-02-2006, 06:25 PM
Well, Ichiro is 6-6 now winning every year he played. (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006.)

Ytown Tribe fan
11-02-2006, 06:44 PM
Jeter has the worst range of any shortstop in the AL, and you can look it up:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2006&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor

Brandon Inge had the most TC and highest RF AND most defensive innings of any third basemen. Wan't even on the fan ballot.

Vernon Wells? What a joke.

Jeter ... sheesh. It'll look good on his mantle next to his Silver Slugger and MVP awards.

What a terrible joke.

Knick9
11-02-2006, 06:49 PM
I have a feeling that Jeter is going to keep winning more gold gloves until he retires. Don't know why, but he will.

Rapmaster
11-02-2006, 07:44 PM
Jeter has the worst range of any shortstop in the AL, and you can look it up:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2006&seasonType=2&split=82&sortColumn=rangeFactor

Brandon Inge had the most TC and highest RF AND most defensive innings of any third basemen. Wan't even on the fan ballot.

Vernon Wells? What a joke.

Jeter ... sheesh. It'll look good on his mantle next to his Silver Slugger and MVP awards.

What a terrible joke.

I happen to think vernon Wells is great defensively, what makes you disagree so strongly?

Skin & Bones
11-02-2006, 08:25 PM
I happen to think vernon Wells is great defensively, what makes you disagree so strongly?

According to Defensive WS, he was tied this year for the lead in the AL with Curtis Granderson. So if you put any stock into Defensive WS, he was a deserving Pick.

Jeter on the other hand wasn't deserving, but has actually improved drastically over the years. He has gone from historically bad to above average.

Ytown Tribe fan
11-02-2006, 08:36 PM
Wells: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2006&seasonType=2&split=84&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=rangeFactor

Wells wasn't making plays that every other centerfielder was. He wasn't getting to balls and catching them. That's what range factor measures ... how many defensive plays you make per 9 defensive innings.

Vernon Wells made fewer defensive plays per inning than any other AL centerfielder.

Similarly, Jeter was dead last in the AL among shortstops in defensive plays made per inning.

Maybe they vote based on character or hitting or something else that has nothing to do with what a fielder is supposed to do, which is make defensive plays.

Rapmaster
11-02-2006, 08:36 PM
According to Defensive WS, he was tied this year for the lead in the AL with Curtis Granderson. So if you put any stock into Defensive WS, he was a deserving Pick.

Jeter on the other hand wasn't deserving, but has actually improved drastically over the years. He has gone from historically bad to above average.

??

I think Vernon Wells is a great defender, I was asking the other guy why he thought he wasn't.

Skin & Bones
11-02-2006, 08:38 PM
??

I think Vernon Wells is a great defender, I was asking the other guy why he thought he wasn't.

Well, I was responding to you in your response to him. I was pointing out that certain defensive statistics see Wells as deserving of the GoldGlove.

Skin & Bones
11-02-2006, 08:42 PM
Wells: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&season=2006&seasonType=2&split=84&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=rangeFactor

Wells wasn't making plays that every other centerfielder was. He wasn't getting to balls and catching them. That's what range factor measures ... how many defensive plays you make per 9 defensive innings.

Vernon Wells made fewer defensive plays per inning than any other AL centerfielder.

Similarly, Jeter was dead last in the AL among shortstops in defensive plays made per inning.

Maybe they vote based on character or hitting or something else that has nothing to do with what a fielder is supposed to do, which is make defensive plays.

Range Factor is a worthless statistic.

DoubleX
11-02-2006, 09:03 PM
Here are some defensive win shares for this past season courtesy of hardballtimes.com. (http://hardballtimes.com/) This year's Gold Glove Winners are in bold (note, their system doesn't award any defensive win shares to pitchers):

Catcher
1) Ivan Rodriguez - 11.5
2) Jason Kendall - 11.2
3) Joe Mauer - 9.5
4) Kenji Johjima - 7.6
5) Ramon Hernandez - 6.9
6) Jorge Posada - 6.2
7) Toby Hall - 5.0 (he was traded to the Dodgers at midseason, and his combined AL/NL total is 5.5)
8) John Buck - 4.7
9) Rod Barajas - 4.5
10) A.J. Pierzynski - 4.4

First Base
t1) Lyle Overbay - 3.0
t1) Nick Swisher - 3.0
t1) Richie Sexon - 3.0
4) Kevin Youkilis - 2.9
5) Mark Teixeira - 2.7
6) Ty Wigginton- 2.2
t7) Howie Kendrick - 2.0
t7) Justin Morneau - 2.0
9) Paul Konerko - 1.9
t10) Jeff Conine - 1.6
t10) Kevin Millar - 1.6
t10) Travis Lee - 1.6

Second Base
1) Mark Ellis - 7.3
2) Mark Loretta - 6.6
3) Aaron Hill - 6.3
4) Luis Castillo - 6.1
5) Adam Kennedy - 5.7
6) Tadahito Iguchi - 5.3
t7) Placido Polanco - 4.5
t7) Robinson Cano - 4.5
9) Mark Grudielanek - 4.2
10) Ian Kinsler - 3.7

Shortstop
1) Jhonny Peralta - 7.9
2) Michael Young - 7.7
3) Orlando Cabrera - 7.4
4) Juan Uribe - 6.2
5) Alex Gonzalez - 5.9
6) Rafael Betancourt - 5.4
7) Miguel Tejada - 5.0
t8) Jason Bartlett - 4.8
t8) Marco Scutaro - 4.8
10) Derek Jeter - 4.6

Third Base
1) Joe Crede - 7.0
2) Mike Lowell - 6.6
3) Eric Chavez - 6.2
4) Brandon Inge - 5.5
5) Adrian Beltre - 4.5
6) Nick Punto - 4.1
7) Troy Glaus - 3.8
8) Mark Teahen - 2.5
9) Alex Rodriguez - 2.4
t10) Hank Blalock - 2.0
t10) Maicer Izturis - 2.0

Outfield
t1) Curtis Granderson - 6.4
t1) Vernon Wells - 6.4
3) Torii Hunter - 5.2
4) Russ Johnson - 4.5
5) Gary Matthews - 4.2
t6) Alex Rios - 4.1
t6) Brian Anderson - 4.1
t6) Ichiro Suzuki - 4.1
9) Chone Figgins - 4.0
t10) Grady Sizemore - 3.7
t10) Johnny Damon - 3.7
t12) Coco Crisp - 3.4
t12) Mark DeRosa - 3.4
t12) Mark Kotsay - 3.4
t15) Corey Patterson - 3.3
t15) Jay Payton - 3.3
t17) Michael Cuddyer - 3.1
t17) Raul Ibanez - 3.1
t19) Melky Cabrera - 3.0
t19) Magglio Ordonez - 3.0

Evangelion
11-02-2006, 09:50 PM
Lol, everyone continue to complain about Jeter, but you see people giving a hoot about Ellis not winning the GG at 2B?

There's a lot of factors that should be consider when decide on who should win the GG. Errors are the most popular statistic people look at, but there's other statistics that matter, such as defensive win shares and other statistic. Honestly, the AL SS class wasn't that good this season, so I'm not in favor of Jeter winning the award, but there wasn't another SS that much better.

2B on the other hand, A's fans know Ellis deserve that award.

GG will remain tough to decide, even though statistic nuts will believe it's easy to jude with their numbers.

EvanAparra
11-02-2006, 10:05 PM
Lol, everyone continue to complain about Jeter, but you see people giving a hoot about Ellis not winning the GG at 2B?
.
Umm...yeah. I think Jeter getting the GG is a lot worse than Ellis not winning it. Grudzilanek was pretty good this year as well, whereas I dont think Jeter was even above average.

Skin & Bones
11-02-2006, 10:15 PM
Umm...yeah. I think Jeter getting the GG is a lot worse than Ellis not winning it. Grudzilanek was pretty good this year as well, whereas I dont think Jeter was even above average.

Every " reliable " fielding metric out there sees Jeter as above average. He still didn't deserve the award though.

ChrisLDuncan
11-02-2006, 10:57 PM
Wow if they have Peralta as the first, damn...that's something. I watch Peralta he's not that great...really. Not a very good arm, okay glove, and decent range.

hellborn
11-02-2006, 11:01 PM
Range Factor is a worthless statistic.
Why? Please elaborate.

EvanAparra
11-02-2006, 11:52 PM
Every " reliable " fielding metric out there sees Jeter as above average. He still didn't deserve the award though.
Really? There are reliable fielding stats? And where are these that say he's above average, because i've never seen one that say he's anything but below average.

Evangelion
11-03-2006, 02:42 AM
Everyone been stating Jeter undeserving, but why are we not mention who should have won the award?

Why Jeter might not be deserving, while people make far too much of a deal out of it? Instead of hyping Jeter too much, you're hating the hype for Jeter far too much. I could babble on about Jeter not deserving the award, but I can't come up with one SS that was that much better than him.

Unless you're watching these players play each day on the field, I don't believe you have a good idea on how well they were on the field that year, even with statistical numbers. I thought Lowell and A-Gone should have got GG. While Tigers fans thought Igne should have won. White Sox fans believe Crede should have won. Might be bias, but the fans of these teams do what these players everyday and get a good idea on how well they play the field oppose to a person that didn't watch that player day in and day out.

hellborn
11-03-2006, 07:15 AM
Everyone been stating Jeter undeserving, but why are we not mention who should have won the award?

Why Jeter might not be deserving, while people make far too much of a deal out of it? Instead of hyping Jeter too much, you're hating the hype for Jeter far too much. I could babble on about Jeter not deserving the award, but I can't come up with one SS that was that much better than him.

Unless you're watching these players play each day on the field, I don't believe you have a good idea on how well they were on the field that year, even with statistical numbers. I thought Lowell and A-Gone should have got GG. While Tigers fans thought Igne should have won. White Sox fans believe Crede should have won. Might be bias, but the fans of these teams do what these players everyday and get a good idea on how well they play the field oppose to a person that didn't watch that player day in and day out.
Well, nobody can see every play by every player for a whole season. That's just not a reasonable condition, but evaluating players can still be done without that.
I think that Michael Young should have won the GG, and Peralta and Tejada would also have been reasonable choices.

W_Marone
11-03-2006, 07:22 AM
How did Hunter win again? Mostly due to injuries he was almost a defensive liability for a good part of the year. He was no where near the fielder he was in 2000-2003.


Hunter played well this season in the outfield, the only real lapse was that play in the Postseason. Other than that he just did what he does every year, play outstanding defense in centerfield for the Twins.

I dont have a problem with Gruzalenek(SP) winning it either, I think Mark Ellis would have been a better choice but Mark is just fine winning the award. Hey why no Bobby Abreu? (Wink Wink)

DoubleX
11-03-2006, 07:34 AM
Everyone been stating Jeter undeserving, but why are we not mention who should have won the award?

Why Jeter might not be deserving, while people make far too much of a deal out of it? Instead of hyping Jeter too much, you're hating the hype for Jeter far too much. I could babble on about Jeter not deserving the award, but I can't come up with one SS that was that much better than him.

Unless you're watching these players play each day on the field, I don't believe you have a good idea on how well they were on the field that year, even with statistical numbers. I thought Lowell and A-Gone should have got GG. While Tigers fans thought Igne should have won. White Sox fans believe Crede should have won. Might be bias, but the fans of these teams do what these players everyday and get a good idea on how well they play the field oppose to a person that didn't watch that player day in and day out.

That's a good point, and now that I know that the players and managers pick the winners, I think there is a little more legitimacy to them. The managers and players have a first hand understanding and view of the game that we as fans cannot fully grasp, and certainly cannot replicate in cold statistical analysis. They know what it takes to be good, and I'm sure they know it when they see it. That's not to say that reputation doesn't bias them, but it bothers me when people think that statistics can fully tell the story and make a person believe that they understand the nuances of the game better than the people who actually play it.

cardsfanatic
11-03-2006, 08:23 AM
Well, nobody can see every play by every player for a whole season. That's just not a reasonable condition, but evaluating players can still be done without that.
I think that Michael Young should have won the GG, and Peralta and Tejada would also have been reasonable choices.

See, I think Michael Young is a horrible defensive SS and 2B.

RuthMayBond
11-03-2006, 10:21 AM
Everyone been stating Jeter undeserving, but why are we not mention who should have won the award?

Why Jeter might not be deserving, while people make far too much of a deal out of it? Instead of hyping Jeter too much, you're hating the hype for Jeter far too much. I could babble on about Jeter not deserving the award, but I can't come up with one SS that was that much better than him.Michael Young, Tejada, Betancourt, Cabrera, Uribe, Peralta, need any more?

<Unless you're watching these players play each day on the field, I don't believe you have a good idea on how well they were on the field that year, even with statistical numbers. I thought Lowell and A-Gone should have got GG.>

So that pretty much eliminates everybody as far as comparing players to each other (except you? ;)

hellborn
11-03-2006, 11:59 AM
Yes, A-Gone did miss 51 games of 162 game season. He played well enough to deserve it, but didn't play enough games. I'm not sure how you or any Sox fan can argue this point.
I am a Bosox fan and honestly don't think that AG would have deserved it even with more games. The man is truly slick, but his mobility just didn't look top notch to me this year. He wasn't a statue with a slipped disk like Renteria last year, but he just seemed to not be his usual slippery quick self.
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I think that Michael Young had a tremendous year at SS.

Rose4theHall
11-03-2006, 12:03 PM
Lol, everyone continue to complain about Jeter, but you see people giving a hoot about Ellis not winning the GG at 2B?

There's a lot of factors that should be consider when decide on who should win the GG. Errors are the most popular statistic people look at, but there's other statistics that matter, such as defensive win shares and other statistic. Honestly, the AL SS class wasn't that good this season, so I'm not in favor of Jeter winning the award, but there wasn't another SS that much better.

2B on the other hand, A's fans know Ellis deserve that award.

GG will remain tough to decide, even though statistic nuts will believe it's easy to jude with their numbers.

EXACTLY! Who gives a flying eff about Jeter, Ellis had the best statistical defensive season OF ALL TIME at 2B in 2006. Yes, OF....ALL....TIME. He beat out Bret Boone from a few years back. That should be the biggest controversy here not some overrated-from-playing-in-Boston-or-NY guys.

ChrisLDuncan
11-03-2006, 12:10 PM
Well, nobody can see every play by every player for a whole season. That's just not a reasonable condition, but evaluating players can still be done without that.
I think that Michael Young should have won the GG, and Peralta and Tejada would also have been reasonable choices.

Actually I do see every play that Jeter makes, it's called Extra Innings and TiVo, I watch alot of Tejada I don't think he's as good as others make him out to be. I see Peralta occasionally he doesn't impress me at all. I watch alot of baseball, I mean ALOT OF BASEBALL, and I think for the most part the only mess up I see in the Gold Glove voting was that Ellis didn't win the GG. Chavez is VERY deserving, so are the OF candidates...maybe Granderson should have won but the ones that they selected are very fine choices that I can't agrue with.

Evangelion
11-03-2006, 01:31 PM
Lol, I can't believe people mention Young, who's a 2B, not a good one. He's an awful SS, if you watch him, you know that. Using statistic might tell you he's good, but why not watch him play a couple of games before saying he should win the GG.

Betancourt, likely in the future, he's amazing, but far too many errors by him this season, 20, for me to give him the GG. He'll likely win a GG, but this season, he's not a GG.

Lol, Tejada. Yes, he should win it, even though everyone in MLB believe he's decline and on the road to playing 3B. Yes, he deserve the GG.

Uribe and Peralta? I love all their errors this season as well. Likely better than Jeter every year, but weren't their best. Even if they're better, if they weren't playing their best this season, which I don't believe any of those SS you mention did, then I won't award them.

DoubleX, like usual, you got the point. Oddly, certain fans think they're not as bias as the voters who watch these players play defense. Sure, you'll run into manager like Guillen, who would vote for A-Rod, because he want Crede to win, but there's likely mangers that know what they're talking about and they voted for Jeter likely, because he probably was the best SS this season. I still won't say he's better than a SS that Ruth mention, but this season, he played well enough for the GG.

Duncan, glad you understand. People should be complaining more about Ellis not winning the 2B GG, than Jeter winning the SS GG.

ChrisLDuncan
11-03-2006, 02:11 PM
Lol, I can't believe people mention Young, who's a 2B, not a good one. He's an awful SS, if you watch him, you know that. Using statistic might tell you he's good, but why not watch him play a couple of games before saying he should win the GG.

Betancourt, likely in the future, he's amazing, but far too many errors by him this season, 20, for me to give him the GG. He'll likely win a GG, but this season, he's not a GG.

Lol, Tejada. Yes, he should win it, even though everyone in MLB believe he's decline and on the road to playing 3B. Yes, he deserve the GG.

Uribe and Peralta? I love all their errors this season as well. Likely better than Jeter every year, but weren't their best. Even if they're better, if they weren't playing their best this season, which I don't believe any of those SS you mention did, then I won't award them.

DoubleX, like usual, you got the point. Oddly, certain fans think they're not as bias as the voters who watch these players play defense. Sure, you'll run into manager like Guillen, who would vote for A-Rod, because he want Crede to win, but there's likely mangers that know what they're talking about and they voted for Jeter likely, because he probably was the best SS this season. I still won't say he's better than a SS that Ruth mention, but this season, he played well enough for the GG.

Duncan, glad you understand. People should be complaining more about Ellis not winning the 2B GG, than Jeter winning the SS GG.

Spot on, I mean they have 3rd base coaches and managers voting on this too, I'm pretty sure they know more about D than sabermatricains, and people of Bill James' ilk. Ellis did have an amazing season, I can't believe that they gave it to the other Mark. I guess they just felt sorry for the Royals and decided to give them something to be happy about (although if they really wanted to do this they'd give them a new owner).

RuthMayBond
11-03-2006, 02:29 PM
EXACTLY! Who gives a flying eff about Jeter, Ellis had the best statistical defensive season OF ALL TIME at 2B in 2006. Yes, OF....ALL....TIME.Mr. Grich would like a word with you :laugh

hellborn
11-03-2006, 02:41 PM
Yeah, those managers and coaches who gave DH Raffy Palmeiro the GG a few years ago really knew more than any stathead! Apparently, they realized Raffy should have been playing 1B after all and overruled the fact that he didn't actually do it. Hey, I would have voted for him for the OF GG, he would have had 500 PO and 35 assists if the manager had been smart enough to play him out there in CF.
Everybody knows every SS in baseball because he saw his own team's SS every day and every other one in at least 2 or 3 games, maybe more. I think that Gabe Kapler was the AL MVP because I saw him in two games this year and his swing looked fantastic, he got four hits!! Darrel Porter must have been a HOF quality hitter because he hit a HR in every Cards game I went to back in the day. And, his swing looked SO good! He sure knew what scap loading was all about.
Baseball people "in the know" said for years that Cal Ripken should move to third because he was too big and slow to play SS. Well, after 15 years and countless thousands of bullet throws to 1B, somebody finally listened and moved him over. It was so much more fun to watch Ozzie Guillen scramble for a ball and then miss the runner by a step and a half because of a rag arm.

You know, I do technical design, and I am evaluated in my work by a great many people who are not technical. If I were evaluated by my fellow engineers, they might think about a cool little circuit I thought up and give me points for that, or knock me down because I didn't know the answer to a question they asked me. But, the non-tech people don't care about that stuff and look at what I got done or didn't get done...the substance, not the flash. What did I do to help the company get product out and make some green. They don't figure this out by watching me at my desk every day, but by evaluating the tangible things that I produce.
I feel that fielders should be evaluated exactly the same way. They are supposed to produce outs. And, I don't think GG selections are made with that in consideration.

Gee Walker
11-03-2006, 02:43 PM
Mr. Grich would like a word with you :laugh

But Mr. Mazeroski was in the line earlier... I guess Maz in 1961 might have a few strong points... about 100 more total chances than Ellis, reducing Maz's workload down to Ellis'. And 54 more double plays, at the cost of 21 more errors.

Remember, in some stadiums, errors are NEVER given to the defender unless the batter or a baserunner advances and there's absolutely no other way of explaining why. If Bill Buckner played for the Blue Jays in the 1980's, Mookie Wilson would have been given a single...

I'll take Maz, thanks.

Old Sweater
11-03-2006, 02:55 PM
Is there a link showing the vote results?

PJ-34
11-03-2006, 03:17 PM
Should be on MLB.com id imagine but im not quite sure where

Old Sweater
11-03-2006, 03:30 PM
Should be on MLB.com id imagine but im not quite sure where

I sure couldn't find the voting results. Tried MLB, SI, ESPN, USA TODAY and our local rag the Rocky Mountain News.

Skin & Bones
11-03-2006, 06:37 PM
Why? Please elaborate.

Here's a good article that pretty much sums up my belief on how lame Range Factor is.

http://www.diamond-mind.com/articles/defeval.htm

Skin & Bones
11-03-2006, 06:42 PM
Really? There are reliable fielding stats? And where are these that say he's above average, because i've never seen one that say he's anything but below average.

Well, the most reliable one, IMO, is Dewan's system. I know how he got to his conclusions, it's not just some number thrown your way telling you this and that.

And I was wrong for what I said. I was looking at BP'S FRAA ( strikingly similar results to Bill James RRF), and seen that he was 9 runs above average. I don't know how he scored in Dewan's system yet, but I will find out when I purchase the 2007 Bill James Handbook. Dave Pinto ( creator of PMR) hasn't gathered all the data yet to give rankings, so I'll have to wait for that too. So what I'm basically left with is non PBP systems like FRAA and Defensive WS.

hellborn
11-03-2006, 09:01 PM
Here's a good article that pretty much sums up my belief on how lame Range Factor is.

http://www.diamond-mind.com/articles/defeval.htm

Good article, and I agree that range factor has a lot of limitations. I suspect that it may be on the level of using batting average to evaluate a hitter.
That said, it is still way more useful than judging a fielder by how he looks. I feel that it what most people in this thread are implicitly defending, which is just plain ridiculous. Mike Ivie had a beautiful swing, you know.

BTW, I'm not sure who made the comment, but I have certainly seen Young play SS. He looked about as klutzy out there as Ripken used to.

Rose4theHall
11-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Mr. Grich would like a word with you :laugh

You mean Grich's 85 season?


Pos G PO A E DP FP lgFP RFg lgRFg
ELLIS 06: 2B 123 273 357 2 91 .997 .986 5.12 4.47
BOONE 97:2B 136 271 334 2 74 .997 .980 4.45 4.31
GRICH 85: 2B 116 224 380 2 99 .997 .982 5.21 4.48
MAZ 61: 2B 152 410 505 23 144 .975 .976 6.02 4.89
GRICH 73: 2B 162 431 509 5 130 .995 .980 5.80 4.67

Im gunna go ahead and say Ellis bested Boone. Based off these stats he beats Grich's 85 but Grich's 73 might be better. Would have liked to have seen Ellis's numbers over 150+ games though. Grich's 73 campaign might just be the best ever.

REGARDLESS, how Ellis didnt at least get a GG this year when there was not even a "regular" in his way, is beyond me.