Robin Yount vs. Cal Ripken Jr.

[538280]

If the other metrics show Yount as being merely average in CF, the other metrics don't line up with conventional wisdom. PCA does. EVERYONE in the AL regarded Yount as one of the best defensive outfielders of his time...do a little reading on the subject, and that's the first thing you'll hear about Yount...that he mastered two skill positions instead of one.

I have read about Yount, Matt, I've never heard that he was considered to have "mastered" CF. I have heard him commended by teammates for switching positions without complaining, that sort of thing, but I have never heard anyone call him a great CF. He certainly was an adequate one, or even a good one, but I've never heard him described as great. If "EVERYONE" in the AL regarded Yount as one of the best defensive OFers in his time I'm sure he would have won at least one Gold Glove at the positoin, if there was such as huge consensus agreement as you describe.


And PCA is not unfairly negative about Ripken...it's realistic. Big players in their thirties aren't gold glove shortstops and they never will be. Ripken Was about as good as a guy who is big and clunky can ever be at the position, but people have gone way too far in this belief that he was truly a great fielder.

I don't think Ripken was a truly great fielder in that he was even comparable defensively to an Ozzie Smith, but I think he was well above average in his earlier years and about average as he aged. I"m not saying PCA is necessarily unfair to Ripken just that it shows him being much worse defensively than other statistical measures, like as DWS and BP's fielding numbers, have.


When the defensive metrics that are already out there disagree with my own, the first thing I do is check what people actually said about the player's glove. 9 time out of 10, when PCA is not in line with FRAA or DWS, the concensus sides with PCA.

The consensus does not side with PCA in the case of Ripken, and I seriously have never heard anyone claim Robin Yount was an awesome CF. I've read the two most well known narrative sites (Baseball Page and Baseball Library), and they both just say he "adapted well to the outfield". If he was regarded as the defensive monster which you described him as earlier it surely would have said a lot more on that.

I respect your system, but in the case of Ripken I can't abide with what it says about his fielding. Not only is your system going against the thoughts of the time, when Ripken was active, but it also goes against all the other statistical metrics, so I would have to be placing complete blind faith in your system to accept Ripken as a mediocre fielder.


Being an average-solid fielder with great peak seasons does not make your position the determining factor in choosing you over another.

I disagree. Being a solid fielder at SS for 10 years while another guy is a solid fielder in CF for 10 years IS a legitimate reason to rank one guy over another.

But I don't really want to trash on Robin Yount anyway. I am sure we are in agreement that he is a very underrated and underappreciated player. I have him around #30 all time.

[AstrosFan]

Who do you think was better? Yount's career relative stats are better- better rel. BA, better rel. OBP, better rel. SLG. The difference isn't large, and might be made up if we took away Ripken's final year, which would about even the PA.

A comparison of their top ten OPS+ seasons:

Ripken: 162, 145, 144, 128, 124, 122, 115, 114, 107, 105

Yount: 166, 152, 151, 132, 130, 126, 125, 125, 114, 110

As you can see, Yount beats Ripken at every turn. But those are rate stats, and playing time does matter in baseball. A look at their top ten in Win Shares, which takes that into account:

Ripken: 37, 35, 34, 28, 26, 25, 25, 23, 22, 21, total 276

Yount: 39, 34, 33, ,31, 27, 26, 25, 23, 20, 20, total 278

For pure peak (top 3 seasons), that would be Ripken, total 106, Yount, total 106.

I am not using these numbers to assert that Yount was a better player. Rather, I am challenging the assumption that Ripken was better, which seems to be prevalent in baseball circles. I think it's very close. And I would like to hear how you feel about the issue.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Ehh, their peak value wasn't THAT big of a difference however Ripken kills yount in that. Plus Ripken played the more of his career at SS than Yount did.

[blaze2u]

Cal Hands Down that was a joke right?

[EvanAparra]

I think Yount is was better, since that was the question posed -- so I voted for Robin. But career wise, I take Cal.

[SABR Matt]

Yount >>>>> Ripken.

Too tired to go into detail on why I think that...will get back to this thread with explanation later.

[AstrosFan]

Ehh, their peak value wasn't THAT big of a difference however Ripken kills yount in that. Plus Ripken played the more of his career at SS than Yount did.

How, exactly, do you come to the conclusion that Ripken kills Yount in peak?

[sds416]

Cal Hands Down that was a joke right?


yeah, I am not sure I can look at this without some sort of smerk of disbelief. You can trot out stats to justify just about anything but the one thing you can't measure are the things that don't show up on a stat sheet. The leadership, the heart, the value of a player, which cannot be judged by numbers on a page.

To me, put his picture next to ballplayer in the dictionary when it comes to Ripken.

[mwiggins]

I've got Yount a bit ahead of Ripken. Yount had a little better peak seasons, he was better at his best (pre-injury) than Ripken, Yount has a slight edge on career value, Yount has a clear edge in baserunning, and I think they're about equal in defensive value. Yount was a better defender than Ripken, but Ripken played more games at SS, so they end up about even.

Plus, observing them both in their prime, Yount was just a more dominant player than Cal. Cal was a nice player, with one great season, but in his pre-injury Yount was clearly the best player in the AL. Even in Cal's best season he wasn't the best player in his league.

[leecemark]

--He wasn't? I've got Ripken as the best player in the AL 3 times to Yount's once (although both actually won 2 MVPs). Ripken wins for me for his greater durability and the fact he stayed at SS much longer.

[mwiggins]

--He wasn't? I've got Ripken as the best player in the AL 3 times to Yount's once (although both actually won 2 MVPs). Ripken wins for me for his greater durability and the fact he stayed at SS much longer.

I would say Frank Thomas was better than Cal in 1991. I'd have Yount as the best player in the AL in '82, '83, & '89.

[leecemark]

--Frank was a better hitter, but I think Cal was a better player.

[mwiggins]

--Frank was a better hitter, but I think Cal was a better player.

It's close, but I think his hitting edge was large enough that Cal couldnt' make it up on defense.

[mwiggins]

yeah, I am not sure I can look at this without some sort of smerk of disbelief. You can trot out stats to justify just about anything but the one thing you can't measure are the things that don't show up on a stat sheet. The leadership, the heart, the value of a player, which cannot be judged by numbers on a page.


I agree. Yount meant much more to the Brewers than what you can show with stats.

[KCGHOST]

This is more difficult of a choice than I thought. RCAA has Yount well ahead 284-161. Yount even wins in OPS+ 115-112. That's a pretty negligible difference, but surprising since Ripken hit 180 more HR's than Yount. WARP3, which factors in fielding, park, and era, massively favors Ripken 169-137. So which do you believe??

I guess when in doubt, you can factor in what your eyes told you at the time. In watching them I always felt Ripken was better and it is primarily due to what I perceived as his superior value of defense. Yount was an okay SS and an okay CF. Ripken was a dominant, but not flashy SS. We may never see another SS with as strong an arm.

[mwiggins]

This is more difficult of a choice than I thought. RCAA has Yount well ahead 284-161. Yount even wins in OPS+ 115-112. That's a pretty negligible difference, but surprising since Ripken hit 180 more HR's than Yount. WARP3, which factors in fielding, park, and era, massively favors Ripken 169-137. So which do you believe??

I guess when in doubt, you can factor in what your eyes told you at the time. In watching them I always felt Ripken was better and it is primarily due to what I perceived as his superior value of defense. Yount was an okay SS and an okay CF. Ripken was a dominant, but not flashy SS. We may never see another SS with as strong an arm.

Ripken's arm was amazing, but Yount was better than an OK SS. He didn't have the best arm around, but he had a lot of range and didn't make a lot of errors. And his range factors are very, very good at SS. From 1978-1982, he was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in the AL in range factor. Take them with a grain of salt if you want, but they are SO good that it's hard to believe he was just an OK SS. Certainly watching him, I didn't see an OK SS.

[Appling]

Their hitting numbers are surprisingly comparable, but Ripken wins my vote on two counts:
* Better-known player (More publicity from the East-Coast press); and
* The Consecutive Game streak (breaking the "unbreakable" record earlier set by Lou Gehrig)

[ChrisLDuncan]

Ripken's arm was amazing, but Yount was better than an OK SS. He didn't have the best arm around, but he had a lot of range and didn't make a lot of errors. And his range factors are very, very good at SS. From 1978-1982, he was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in the AL in range factor. Take them with a grain of salt if you want, but they are SO good that it's hard to believe he was just an OK SS. Certainly watching him, I didn't see an OK SS.

Full disclosure isn't Yount your favorite player?

[Bench 5]

I voted for Rockin' Robin.

This was a tough one though since they were both great players. The one thing that they had in common to me is that after watching them have outstanding season in the early 80's, I envisioned that they would both put up monster type seasons for years to come.

Based upon Ripken's early success many people thought he was going to become a 40 HR per year type guy. He never reached that level of production but he was still a wonderful player.

Same for Yount. 1982 was his coming out year in many ways and since he was so young, people expected him to do it every year. If you look at Ryne Sandberg's career, the same thing happened.

I would take either guy on my team any day.

[honestiago]

Yount was obviously the better athlete, as he played two key defensive positions (SS and CF) and won MVP's at both positions. Both are good hitters. I think Yount was more consistent than Cal. He also had better speed. I do not believe Cal was so much better in the field that he could do more things to win a game than Yount. I'd take Robin.

[brett]

Tell me about this "streak." I wasn't aware of it.


Their hitting numbers are surprisingly comparable, but Ripken wins my vote on two counts:
* Better-known player (More publicity from the East-Coast press); and
* The Consecutive Game streak (breaking the "unbreakable" record earlier set by Lou Gehrig)

[brett]

Its too close. Yount IS a better offensive player by a small margin. Ripken gains some for playing at SS better and longer. Not much. I know many will disagree, but I have Trammell as a better career offensive player than Ripken.

Yount-+55
Trammell-+54
Ripken-+41

but others will disagree when I say that Ripken was the most valuable defensive player of the three. He probably picks up just enough to make up the difference on Yount.

[honestiago]

I can't remember -- did Yount move to CF because he's lost something at short? Or was it to make room for someone else? (Riles?)

[Edgartohof]

I would say Frank Thomas was better than Cal in 1991. I'd have Yount as the best player in the AL in '82, '83, & '89.

I have Boggs over Yount in '83 (mostly due to the 61 some odd difference in OBP), and the fact that Boggs played 9 more games that season (hey, that isn't a small difference). And I also have Ripken over Yount in '83 as well I might add.

[leecemark]

--Yount had some injury problems that forced his move to the outfield. IIRC, he hurt his shoulder and couldn't make the throws anymore.

[SABR Matt]

Yeah....Yount moved to CF because he lost his arm strength...if it weren't for that arm injury he'd probably have been a SS for much longer.

[yanks0714]

This thread gave me pause. Instantly, I was voting for Ripken as I have him as #2 in my SS rankings. But the more I thought about it, Yount came into better focus. Robin was a talent. If he hadn't hurt his shoulder, robbing him of the snap throw to 1B, he may well have stayed at SS and passed by Ripken.

So, in terms of strictly SS, I have to go with Cal. As for better player....this is tough. Cal had more power; Yount ran much better; Cal had an awesome arm; I think Robin was the better hitter overall; Robin was a good defensive SS while Cal was very good; both had intangibles in that they were unsung team leaders.

In the end, if I had to choose one of the other for my team....I'd take.... Robin Yount.

[538280]

I think both are VERY underappreciated players on this forum, and it's really close. But I have to go with Ripken in the end mostly because he stayed at SS while Yount moved to CF midway through his career. That really is the key difference between them...I'd say Ripken probably was a little better at his best as well but only a very little bit. Very close, and a good comparison.

[SABR Matt]

I don't get why it's seen as a bad thing that Yount moved to CF. When he moved to CF he proved to be a gold glove stud for several more seasons at the new position. And it's not like CF is so much less valuable than SS on the defensive spectrum that we should all be discounting that Yount was still playing a skill position.

It's better to play a gold glove CF than a suspect (and Ripken was highly suspect defensively after about 1993) SS.

[538280]

I don't get why it's seen as a bad thing that Yount moved to CF. When he moved to CF he proved to be a gold glove stud for several more seasons at the new position. And it's not like CF is so much less valuable than SS on the defensive spectrum that we should all be discounting that Yount was still playing a skill position.

It's better to play a gold glove CF than a suspect (and Ripken was highly suspect defensively after about 1993) SS.

How did Yount play a GG CF? Is that what PCA shows? I had never though he was anything special there defensively.

Your system is also much less favorable to Ripken defensively than any other metric. DWS shows Ripken deserving of a GG in 1994 I believe (not sure about the other years) and FRAA shows him being basically average-and yes an average SS is better than an above average but not great CF.

[SABR Matt]

If the other metrics show Yount as being merely average in CF, the other metrics don't line up with conventional wisdom. PCA does. EVERYONE in the AL regarded Yount as one of the best defensive outfielders of his time...do a little reading on the subject, and that's the first thing you'll hear about Yount...that he mastered two skill positions instead of one.

And PCA is not unfairly negative about Ripken...it's realistic. Big players in their thirties aren't gold glove shortstops and they never will be. Ripken Was about as good as a guy who is big and clunky can ever be at the position, but people have gone way too far in this belief that he was truly a great fielder.

Yount by PCA:

Ps Yr EqG Wins PCA-BA
SS 1974 96 1.51 0.258
SS 1975 139 1.47 0.235
SS 1976 161 3.13 0.274
SS 1977 151 2.20 0.253
SS 1978 126 3.45 0.31
SS 1979 149 2.49 0.262
SS 1980 131 2.09 0.259
SS 1981 92 2.46 0.307
SS 1982 151 2.20 0.253
SS 1983 141 1.70 0.242
SS 1984 124 1.47 0.241
Career PCA-BA: .262

Ps Yr EqG Wins PCA-BA
CF 1985 39 0.31 0.238
CF 1986 131 3.42 0.304
CF 1987 143 2.70 0.277
CF 1988 153 6.00 0.352 (17th best single season of ALL TIME)
CF 1989 137 3.88 0.312
CF 1990 150 2.46 0.268
CF 1991 117 2.29 0.280
CF 1992 135 2.09 0.265
CF 1993 106 1.78 0.270
Career PCA-BA: .292

When the defensive metrics that are already out there disagree with my own, the first thing I do is check what people actually said about the player's glove. 9 time out of 10, when PCA is not in line with FRAA or DWS, the concensus sides with PCA.

Ripken is one of the times where it does not, so I consider it at least possible that PCA is underrating his fielding at short, but not so much that he should be considered the more valuable skill-position player between he and Yount. Ripken's defense:

Ps Yr EqG Wins PCA-BA
SS 1981 7 0.13 0.269
SS 1982 94 1.19 0.244
SS 1983 162 4.67 0.316
SS 1984 162 5.08 0.327
SS 1985 161 2.92 0.269
SS 1986 162 3.38 0.281
SS 1987 160 2.48 0.257
SS 1988 161 1.96 0.242
SS 1989 162 3.94 0.296
SS 1990 158 2.02 0.245
SS 1991 159 2.43 0.256
SS 1992 162 2.69 0.262
SS 1993 162 2.93 0.268
SS 1994 112 2.38 0.282
SS 1995 144 4.36 0.323
SS 1996 152 1.83 0.242
Career PCA-BA: .275
Ps Yr EqG Wins PCA-BA
3B 1981 3 0.04 0.278
3B 1982 68 0.95 0.281
3B 1996 8 0.07 0.253
3B 1997 155 2.51 0.294
3B 1998 158 1.25 0.245
3B 1999 73 1.04 0.282
3B 2000 72 0.81 0.265
3B 2001 114 1.65 0.284
Career PCA-BA: .274

Being an average-solid fielder with great peak seasons does not make your position the determining factor in choosing you over another.

[leecemark]

--It looks to me like PCA shows Ripken to have been a better defensive SS than Yount even though Cal stayed at the spot into his baseball middle age while Robin did not.

[SABR Matt]

Yes...it does. That's why I didn't say the system thought Yount was better...they were COMPARABLE defensively at short, Ripken having the better peak, and Yount was a good defensive CFer in his twilight whereas Ripken was a mediocre defensive third baseman in his.

[nightal]

Their hitting numbers are surprisingly comparable, but Ripken wins my vote on two counts:
* Better-known player (More publicity from the East-Coast press); and
* The Consecutive Game streak (breaking the "unbreakable" record earlier set by Lou Gehrig)


"Better known player", please............that's why Ripken has always been overrated.

[538280]

Just bringing these threads up-posts made earlier today are at the beginning of the thread.