Walter Johnson Thread [Archive]

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Jason R. Maier

01-01-2002, 04:02 AM

I date all my baseball photos using the following book. (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991, 1993)

Also, the following website, hostd by the Hall of Fame, mainly using the same book above, but also using images after 1993, has assisted me in dating some of the photos. http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/database.htm#database

On this photographic gallery, I have attempted, using the book above, to date all the photos. If I caption a photo with the following, John Smith, Cubs OF, 1910-13, that means that the photo was taken sometime between 1910-13, when the player was on the Cubs. It does NOT mean that the player was only on the Cubs in that time frame. He might have been on the Cubs from 1900-18, but the photo was only taken between 1910-13.
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If you enjoy this photo gallery, you might also like our other ones, too.

Historical, Archival Photographs (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40306)---Pre-1900 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102911-19th-Century-Historic-Photographic-Archive)---Negro L. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102913-Negro-Leagues-Historic-Photographic-Archive)---Vintage Panoramic Pictures (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75607)---Members' Gallery (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102920-Members-Photo-Gallery)---Runningshoes Presents: Photo Op (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=46723)---Meet The Sports Writers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57538)

Photos of the following individual players---Hank Aaron (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58318)---Pete Alexander (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54211)---Ty Cobb (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102826-Bill-s-Ty-Cobb-Photos)---Eddie Collins (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54920)---Sam Crawford (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=71637)---Jimmy Foxx (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=55628)---Lou Gehrig (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?104799-Lou-Gehrig-Photo-File)---Rickey Henderson (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54995)---Rogers Hornsby (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56377)---Joe Jackson (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1305036&highlight=Greenville#post1305036)---Walter Johnson (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54344)---Nap Lajoie (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=72124)---Connie Mack (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=59240)---John McGraw (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68164)---Mickey Mantle (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=67997)---Christy Mathewson (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=33507)---Willie Mays (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54723)---Mel Ott (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?104840-Mel-Ott-Photo-File)---Babe Ruth (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=21998&page=7)---George Sisler (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=960330#post960330)---Tris Speaker (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38504)---Pie Traynor (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=37345)---Rube Waddell (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=308179#post308179)--- Honus Wagner (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=13366)---Ted Williams (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58624)---Zack Wheat (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?84754-Zack-Wheat-Thread)---Rare Ty Cobb (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102921-Rare-Ty-Cobb-pictures) ---Rare Babe Ruth (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=73654)---Bill's Babe Ruth (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?103022-Bill-s-Babe-Ruth-Photos)---Rare Ted Williams (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102923-Rare-Ted-Williams-pictures)---Bill's Rare Finds (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75602) ---Babefan's Fantastic Vintage Baseball photos (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102924-Fantastic-Vintage-Baseball-Photos-!)---GaryL's Boston Public Library Baseball Photo Project (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?103426-Boston-Public-Library-Baseball-Project)

We also have some very nice, attractive team photo collections---New York Yankees (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102934-The-New-York-Yankees-Team-Photo-Collection)---New York Giants (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102932-The-New-York-Giants-Baseball-s-1st-Dynasty)---Detroit Tigers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102937-Detroit-Tigers-Team-Photos-Collection)---Pittsburgh Pirates (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102935-Pittsburgh-Pirates)---Brooklyn Dodgers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41860)
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Welcome to The Walter Johnson Thread!
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Walter Johnson Photo Index:

2. Top, Left: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
2. Top, Middle: Ty Cobb: His Tumultuous Life and Times, by Richard Bak, 1994, pp. 37.
2. Top, Right: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
2. Top, Far Right: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
2. Middle: INTERNET:
2. Bottom, Left: SABR's The National Pastime: Special Pictorial Issue: The Dead Ball Era, Spring, 1986, #5, pp. 29.
2. Bottom, Middle: Baseball's Golden Age: The Photgraphs of Charles M. Conlon, by Neal McCabe/constance McCabe, 1993, pp. 94.
2. Bottom, Right: The New York Times Book of Sports Legends, ed. by Joseph J. Vecchione, 1991, pp. 146.
3. Left: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
3. Middle: Our Game: An American Baseball History, by Charles C. Alexander, 1991, pp. 116.
3. Right: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90. Or Nationals on Parade: 70 Years of Washington Nationals Photos, by Mark Stang/Phil Wood, 2005, pp. 35.
3. Far Right: The Greatest Pitchers of All time, by Donald Honig, 1988, pp. 41.
4. Left: Baseball: The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 152.
4. 2nd from left: The American League, by Donald Honig, 1983, pp. 68.
4. 3rd from left:
4. 4th from left: The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Greatest Players, 1998, pp. 17. Or, one can use the more cropped Baseball: 100 Years of the Modern Era: 1901-2000, From The Archives Of The Sporting News, edited by Joe Hoppel, 2001, pp. 29.
4. 5th from left: Superstars of Baseball, by Bob Broeg, 1971, pp. 139.
4. 6th from left: Baseball: The Perfect Game, ed. by Josh Leventhall, 2005, pp. 127.
5. Left: Baseball's Best, by Martin Appel, 1980, pp. 235.
5. Third from Left: New York Times Book of Baseball History, 1975, pp. 241.
5. Fourth from Left: The Baseball Story, by Fred Lieb, 1950, pp. 210.
5. Far Right: My Life in Baseball-The True Record, Ty Cobb with Al Stump, 1961, pp. 264.
5. Bottom, Right: All Those Mornings . . . At the Post, by Shirley Povich, 2005, pp. 8.
6. Left: The Ultimate Baseball Book, by Daneil Okrent/Harris Lewine, 1988, pp. 71.
6. Middle: The Baseball Chronicles, by Larry Burke, 1995, pp. 55.
6. Right: The Associated Press Pictorial History of Baseball, by Hal Bock, 1990, pp. 17.
6. Bottom: The Autobiography of Baseball, by Joseph Wallace, 1998, pp. 178.
6. Bottom, Right:
7. Baseball's Hall of Fame, by Ken D. Smith, 1947, pp. 111.
8. Top, Left: The American League, by Donald Honig, 1983, pp. 68. Or, one can alternately use the slightly more cropped The History of Baseball, edited by Allison Danzig/Joe Reichler, 1959, pp. 275.
8. Middle, Right: The Baseball Story, by Fred Lieb, 1950, pp. 210.
8. Bottom, Right: Baseball As I Have Known It, by Fred Lieb, 1977, pp. 135.
9. Left: The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Greatest Players, 1998, pp. 17.
10. Baseball: The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 152.
11. Left: Illustrated History of Baseball, by Robert Smith, 1973, pp. 148.
11. Right: Superstars of Baseball, by Bob Broeg, 1971, pp. 139.
12. Left: SABR's The National Pastime: Special Pictorial Issue: The Dead Ball Era, Spring, 1986, #5, pp. 29.
12. Middle: The Greatest Pitchers of All time, by Donald Honig, 1988, pp. 41.
12. Right: Baseball: The Perfect Game, ed. by Josh Leventhall, 2005, pp. 127.
13. Top: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
13. Bottom: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
14. Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
15. Right: Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
17. Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
18. SABR's The National Pastime, Special Pictorial Issue-The Dead Ball Era, #6, Spring, 1986, pp. 29.
19. Left; Our Game: An American Baseball History, by Charles C. Alexander, 1991, pp. 116. Or Nationals on Parade: 70 Years of Washington Nationals Photos, by Mark Stang/Phil Wood, 2005, pp. 35.
19. Right:
20. Left: Illustrated History of Baseball, by Robert Smith, 1973, pp. 148.
20. Right: Baseball Between the Wars, by Bill Hageman, 2001, pp. 16.
21. Left: The Associated Press Pictorial History of Baseball, by Hal Bock, 1990, pp. 17.
21. Right: Baseball's Hall of Fame, by Ken D. Smith, 1947, pp. 111. Or, The American League Story, by Lee Allen, 1965, pp. 116.
22. The New York Times Book of Sports Legends, ed. by Joseph J. Vecchione, 1991, pp. 146.
23. Middle: The Great American Baseball Scrapbook, by A. D. Suehsdorf, 1978, pp. 44.

Page 2.

47. Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
48. Middle: The Great Baseball Scrapbook, by A. D. Suehsdorf, 1978, pp. 44.

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:42 PM

BB Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/johnswa01.shtml)---Walter article 1 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=358780&postcount=2)---Walter article 2 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=359619&postcount=4)--- Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)

Weiser, pre-ML, 1906----------------------1907-08-------------------Aug.20, 1907, Clev.---------------------1907
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Walter.jpg

--------------------1909------------------------------------------------------------1907-11
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image5-10.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif

Walter Johnson: 3 shots.

1907
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/2011-12-17_133711.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image9-31.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/1907Johnson.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:43 PM

Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)
--------1912-----------------1912-15------------------------1912-15----------------------------1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image1-10.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:44 PM

Walter Johnson: All these shots are from 1912-15,---Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image18-6.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:45 PM

Walter Johnson:---Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)---Walter article 1 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=358780&postcount=2)---Walter article 2 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=359619&postcount=4)

--------1917--------------------1916--------------------1916
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image20-5.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif

------------------------1923-----------------------------------------------1923---------------------------------------1923
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image16-3.jpg

-------------1918-23-----------------------------------------1918-23
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image10-10.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:46 PM

Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)---Walter article 1 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=358780&postcount=2)---Walter article 2 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=359619&postcount=4)

-------------------1924-------------------------------------------------1924-25-------------------------------------1927
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image19-7.jpg

October 5, 1924, World Series--------------------------------------------------------------------------October 11, 1924, World Series
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image21-2.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif35255

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:47 PM

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:48 PM

Walter Johnson:---Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)---Walter article 1 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=358780&postcount=2)---Walter article 2 (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=359619&postcount=4)

-----------------------1912-15----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1916
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image6-36.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image7-19.jpg

--------------------April 12, 1916--------------------------------------------------------------------------------1916
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image11-12.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif35257
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image40-2.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:49 PM

Walter Johnson: ------1916-------------------------------------------------------------------------------1917---Walter Johnson on video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLiKZM-8_E)
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/2011-12-16_153624.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/1917Johnson.jpg

-----------------------------------------March 11, 1924
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image3-14.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image3-27.jpg

--------------------------------------------------May 11, 1924
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image2-34.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image45-2.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:50 PM

Walter Johnson, 1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image7-8.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:53 PM

Walter Johnson:-----------1912-15--------------------------------------------1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image12-12.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image26-20.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/2011-08-27_182541.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:54 PM

Walter Johnson:---3 shots from 1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image1-6.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Bills%20Rare%20Photo%20Finds/Image2-10-1.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image1-11.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:56 PM

Walter Johnson/Christy Mathewson:

March, 1911, Atlanta, GA-----------------------------------------------October 27, 1913, Joplin, Missouri.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------Next day, they pitched against each other
-------------------------------------------------------------------------for the only time. Walter won, 6-0.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image24-2.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 01:57 PM

Walter Johnson:
Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/img879.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:01 PM

Walter Johnson:
---Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/img878.jpg

Skin & Bones

11-30-2006, 02:03 PM

Where do you get all these nice pictures from ? Do you just google it ?
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Here are some of my sources.

1. Vast majority come from my personal baseball book collection, and those from nearby libraries.

2. http://pro.corbis.com/default.aspx

3. http://images.google.com/advanced_image_search?hl=en

4. http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/advanced?ei=UTF-8

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:05 PM

Walter Johnson:
Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 90.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/img877.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:06 PM

------------------------------------------1910-11
Source for the photos below: Detroit News newspaper photo collection. (http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=All%20Categories;med=1;c=vmc;size=20;page =search;view=thumbnail)
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/poikl.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif

---------------------------------------1910
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Walt20Johnson.jpg

----------------------------------1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Walltt20Johnson.jpg

----------------------------------1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Walter20Johnson.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:10 PM

The Big Train
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image49-2-1.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:14 PM

Source: Baseball Between the Wars, by Bill Hageman, 2001, pp. 16.

Walter Johnson, Senators' P, 1912-15-----------------------------------------------1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image13-8.jpghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:15 PM

---------------------1912-15-------------------------------------------------------- 1927----------------------------------------------1918-23
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image15-5.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:18 PM

Source, Left: The New York Times Book of Sports Legends, ed. by Joseph J. Vecchione, 1991, pp. 146.

Walter Johnson Senators P-------------------------------------------------------------------Walter Johnson/Gabby Street, 1910
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Bills%20Rare%20Photo%20Finds/Image15-3.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image7-12.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image20-21.jpg

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:21 PM

Walter Johnson:

Source: Right: Baseball As I Have Known It, by Fred Lieb, 1977, pp. 135.

And so ends my photographic portrait study of the great Walter Johnson, Baseball's Big Train. Hope you enjoyed the ride, as much as I did creating it!!! Bill Burgess

-------------1912-15---------------------------------1909
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image2-24.jpg

AstrosFan

11-30-2006, 02:23 PM

Am I correct in assuming you use a scanner to transfer the image from the books to your computer?

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:30 PM

Am I correct in assuming you use a scanner to transfer the image from the books to your computer?
You are absolutely correct in your assumption, AF. I use an Epson 4180 scanner. Is a quite good machine.

Bill

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 02:33 PM

My slate of candidates for Top 10 Best Seasons Ever for a Pitcher:

----Name---------Year------W-L------ShO---ERA+--Inn.--WS---TPR
1. Johnson ----- 1913------36-7------11---258---346---54---8.0
2. Alexander --- 1915------31-10---- 12---225---376---43---7.0
3. Koufax ------ 1965------26-8-------8---160---336---33---4.8
4. Gibson -------1968------22-9------13---258---305---36---7.0
5. Brown ------- 1906------26-6------10---254---277---35---4.9
6. Mathewson --- 1909------25-6-------8---223---275---34---5.8
7. Joss -------- 1908------24-11------9---206---325---35---5.0
8. Wood -------- 1912------34-5------10---178---344---44---6.9
9. Coombs ------ 1910------31-9------13---182---353---37---4.2
10. McGinnity -- 1904------35-8-------9---169---408---42---4.3

I give high precedence to ERA+, in conjuction with W-L, Shutouts, and a variety of other stats. Some of the flashier ERA+ seasons of modern vintage by Maddux/Martinez came with too few inninings pitched to make my cut. Sorry about that. I like to see at least 250 innings pitched or so. I have no hard rules.

My award winner, Walter Johnson's 1913 campaign led his league in:
Wins, W-L%, shutouts, CG, innings, SO, ERA, ERA+, Total Baseball's RATIO, Opponents BA, Opponents on-base ave., pitching runs+, wins shares, total pitching wins, fewest hits/g, fewest BB/g, SO/g, Total Baseball's starter runs, adjusted starter runs, total pitcher index.

In other words, Walter swept the boards that year. And he did it while pitching 346 innings. He also won the MVP award. A true evergreen, classic, vintage Year For the Ages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greatest Pitching Seasons:

I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc. This list is in order of sequence according to ERA+.

For this chart, I removed the low innings factor, to allow some more modern seasons to compete for Best Seasons Ever.

For convenience, I high-lighted in red the post 1920 seasons for us, for easy reference.

------[COLOR=Red]Name----------yr.---ERA+--Inn.---W-L---ShO--CG-Ratio*-WS*-TPR--PCA

Pedro Martinez-----2000---285---217---18-6----7----4--.617--29--7.3
Greg Maddux--------1995---259---209---19-2---10----3--.609--30--6.2
Walter Johnson-----1913---258---346---36-7---11---29--.667--54--8.0
Bob Gibson---------1968---258---305---22-9---13---28--.771--36--7.0
Mordecai Brown-----1906---253---277---26-6---10---27--.812--35--4.9
Dwight Gooden------1985---226---276---24-4----8---16--.791--33--7.0
Grover Alexander---1915---224---376---31-10--12---36--.757--43--7.0
Christy Mathewson--1909---223---275---25-6----8---26--.735--34--5.8
Lefty Grove--------1931---218---289---31-4----4---27--.787--42--6.3
Cy Young-----------1901---217---371---33-10---5---38--.768--41--5.7
Ron Guidry---------1978---208---273---25-3----9---16--.759--31--5.7
Addie Joss---------1908---205---325---24-11---9---29--.741--35--5.0
Jack Taylor--------1902---203---324---22-11--10---33--.830--32--5.1
Dean Chance--------1964---199---278---20-9---11---15--.825--32--4.6
Spud Chandler------1943---197---253---20-4----5---20--.810--29--5.0
Hal Newhouser------1945---194---313---25-9----8---29--.864--36--6.6
Mort Cooper--------1942---193---279---22-7---10---22--.811--29--5.0
Carl Hubbell-------1933---193---309---23-12--10---22--.820--33--5.1
Tom Seaver---------1971---193---286---20-10---4---21--.795--32--5.7
Randy Johnson------2002---190---260---24-5----8----4--.827--29--6.3
Ed Walsh-----------1910---189---369---18-20---7---33--.733--36--5.8
Warren Spahn-------1953---187---266---23-7----5---24--.805--31--5.3
Lefty Gomez--------1934---185---281---26-5----6---25--.803--31--4.3
Luis Tiant---------1968---185---258---21-0----9---19--.779--28--3.6
Vida Blue----------1971---183---312---24-8----8---24--.787--30--4.8
Jack Coombs--------1910---182---353---31-9---13---35--.886--37--4.2
Steve Carlton------1972---182---346---27-10---8---30--.817--40--6.8
Rube Waddell-------1905---180---328---26-11---7---27--.882--35--5.7
Orvie Overall------1909---179---285---20-11---9---23--.845--30--4.5
Joe Wood-----------1912---178---344---34-5---10---35--.816--44--6.9
Joe McGinnity------1904---178---408---35-8----9---38--.836--42--4.3
Dazzy Vance--------1924---176---309---28-6----3---30--.798--36--6.0
Dizzy Dean---------1934---170---324---30-7----3---29--.867--37--5.3
Stan Coveleski-----1917---167---298---19-14---9---24--.820--29--2.4
Roger Clemens------1986---166---254---24-4----1---10--.762--29--4.9
Ed Walsh-----------1908---163---464---40-15--11---42--.789--47--8.1
Jack Chesbro-------1904---158---454---41-12---6---48--.854--53--4.6
Denny McLain-------1968---157---336---31-6----6---28--.812--33--4.4
Sandy Koufax-------1965---156---335---26-8----8---27--.728--33--4.8
Dave McNally-------1968---154---273---22-10---5---18--.782--26--3.2
Orel Hershiser-----1988---148---267---23-8----8---15--.865--25--3.7
Bob Feller---------1946---145---371---26-15--10---36--.887--32--4.7
George Uhle--------1926---143---318---27-11---3---32--.934--32--3.9
Robin Roberts------1952---141---330---28-7----3---30--.814--32--3.7
Urban Shocker------1922---140---348---24-17---2---29--.873--29--3.7
Don Newcombe-------1956---130---268---27-7----5---18--.793--27--3.1
Nolan Ryan---------1972---120---284---19-16---9---20--.948--24--2.0
Whitey Ford--------1961---117---283---25-4----3---11--.882--22--0.9

*ratio = Relative Onbase Ave.; Opponent's Onbase Ave / L. onbase ave.
WS = Bill James' Win Shares
TPR = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most Impressive Pitcher's Peaks:

1. Pedro Martinez, 1997-2003,-------215 ERA+

2. Walter Johnson, 1910-1914,-------204 ERA+

3. Roger Clemens, 1986-1992,--------164 ERA+

4. Sandy Koufax, 1961-1966,---------161 ERA+

5. Ed Walsh, 1907-1912,-------------160 ERA+

6. Christy Mathewson, 1903-1909,----155 ERA+

7. Grover Alexander, 1911-1917,-----150 ERA+

8. Rube Waddell, 1902-1908,---------145 ERA+
----------------------------------------------------------------

Pedro Martinez (1997-2000; 4 years - 226 1/3 innings): 226

Greg Maddux (1992-1995; 4 years - 236 2/3 innings): 211

Mordecai Brown (1906-1909; 4 years - 291 1/3): 196

Bob Gibson (1968-1970; 3 years - 304 2/3 innings): 185

**Roger Clemens (1990-1992; 3 years - 248 2/3 innings): 183

**Roger Clemens (1996-1998; 3 years - 247 innings): 182

Randy Johnson (1999-2002; 4 years - 257 1/3): 182

Tom Seaver (1969-1971; 3 years - 283 1/3 innings) 167

Juan Marichal (1964-1966; 3 years - 290 1/3 innings): 160

Amos Rusie (1893-1896; 4 years - 410 1/3): 155

Bob Feller (1939-1941; 3 years - 320): 146

Warren Spahn (1951-1953; 3 years - 288 2/3): 142
[/code]

Mariano_Rivera

11-30-2006, 03:35 PM

I have the Big Train as #1 but Clemens will likely pass him or at least tie him in my ratings if he plays next season.

-Kyle-

11-30-2006, 04:31 PM

Does anyone, have any idea on how Walter Johnson threw so hard? I mean, it says he never raised his back leg when he threw. How did he get so much power?

mwiggins

11-30-2006, 04:48 PM

Another question...was his control really as good as his BB/IP #'s would suggest? Or was it more a case of him not having to worry about working the corners since he could throw the ball past most hitters?

torez77

11-30-2006, 06:30 PM

Guess I should've read the ENTIRE poll before I voted. I just saw "I rank Walter #1 all-time", clicked that one, and submitted my vote. I also rank Walter's 1913 season top 3 all-time. In fact, I rank that one #1 all-time, so you may as well put my vote in for that one too, if you would please, Bill. :D

EvanAparra

11-30-2006, 06:32 PM

AstrosFan

11-30-2006, 06:46 PM

Bill, I'd like to see a top ten list for best seasons for the following time periods:

A. 1900-1919
B. 1920-1939
C. 1940-1959
D. 1960-1979
E. 1980-2006

I only ask because I see that your ten best seasons all fall within the deadball eras. I would create my own lists, but I don't have any charts set up yet.

Myankee4life

11-30-2006, 06:53 PM

Lefty Grove's peak has to be there somewhere Bill.

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 07:54 PM

Bill Burgess

11-30-2006, 07:55 PM

Lefty Grove's peak has to be there somewhere Bill.
Yeah, I'd love to add it if I knew how. Chris the Younger (528280) did those ERA+ peak numbers for me. If anyone knows how to do Grove's peak, 1928-33 ERA+, that would be great, and I'd add it in a heartbeat.

Bill

Sultan_1895-1948

11-30-2006, 08:07 PM

I have the Big Train as #1 but Clemens will likely pass him or at least tie him in my ratings if he plays next season.

Yeah, Clemens' late-age surge is pretty unbelievable.

Bench 5

12-01-2006, 12:37 PM

Does anyone, have any idea on how Walter Johnson threw so hard? I mean, it says he never raised his back leg when he threw. How did he get so much power?

Kyle - In Baseball Magazine October 1913 they have an oustanding article that tries to answer that very same question. At some point I would like to post that article on the site because it is fascinating stuff.

They took measurements of the arm length, arm dimensions, height and weight of all of the top pitchers and tried to make some sense as to why big muscular guys like Jean Duboc were not power pitchers while a lanky, sinewy pitcher like Johnson had tremendous speed.

What they found is that Johnson had a reach of 78 1/2 inches. He had one of the largest arm spans of any of the pitchers that they measured - although a couple like Cy Falkenberg had a reach of 79 1/2 inches. Typically you will find that your average man will have a reach equal to his height. So you would expect that Johnson's reach would be about 73 inches.

What they also found was that Johnson had the longest arms of anyone that they measured - 34 inches. The 6'5" Falkenberg had an arm length of 33 inches. Carl Weilman was over 6'6" and had a wingspan of "only" 75 inches and an arm length of 31 1/2 inches.

Johnson's arm dimensions are as follows: 7 1/8 inch wrist, 12 12/2 inch forearm and 12 1/2 inch biceps.

So you had a man with extraordinary long arms and an arm like a whip. If you watch old movies of him pitch, that's exactly what it looks like.

There are some great pictures in the article. I am going to send them to Bill and maybe he can post them. They show Johnson showing off his reach. His arms look like a whip.

mwiggins

12-01-2006, 12:45 PM

Kyle - In Baseball Magazine October 1913 they have an oustanding article that tries to answer that very same question. At some point I would like to post that article on the site because it is fascinating stuff.

They took measurements of the arm length, arm dimensions, height and weight of all of the top pitchers and tried to make some sense as to why big muscular guys like Jean Duboc were not power pitchers while a lanky, sinewy pitcher like Johnson had tremendous speed.

What they found is that Johnson had a reach of 78 1/2 inches. He had one of the largest arm spans of any of the pitchers that they measured - although a couple like Cy Falkenberg had a reach of 79 1/2 inches. Typically you will find that your average man will have a reach equal to his height. So you would expect that Johnson's reach would be about 73 inches.

What they also found was that Johnson had the longest arms of anyone that they measured - 34 inches. The 6'5" Falkenberg had an arm length of 33 inches. Carl Weilman was over 6'6" and had a wingspan of "only" 75 inches and an arm length of 31 1/2 inches.

Johnson's arm dimensions are as follows: 7 1/8 inch wrist, 12 12/2 inch forearm and 12 1/2 inch biceps.

So you had a man with extraordinary long arms and an arm like a whip. If you watch old movies of him pitch, that's exactly what it looks like.

There are some great pictures in the article. I am going to send them to Bill and maybe he can post them. They show Johnson showing off his reach. His arms look like a whip.

I forget where it's from, but I've read a quote from him talking about how it hurt to watch Joe Wood throw his fastball, that it just seemed like so much more work than Johnson's motion. That easy sidearm motion was a big reason why he was such a workhorse.

-Kyle-

12-01-2006, 03:01 PM

csh19792001

12-01-2006, 08:18 PM

I don't know where Big Train should rank exactly, I guess. I agree with Randy (Sultan1895_1948) that Clemens' last 5 years have been incredible- to the point of arousing somewhat strong suspicion in my mind as to how someone that age could have put up those kind of numbers. Regardless, a strong case can be made for several pitchers as the greatest ever, and Walter Johnson's claim, despite pitching 100 years ago in the age of sepia tones....is still pretty damned strong.

And with the ordinal ranking piece out of the way, I hope we can really produce a great historical thread that produces a ton of great anecdotal and biographical info on one of baseball's greatest players and greatest human beings.

Bill Burgess

12-01-2006, 09:36 PM

Here is an historical piece contributed by Randy (Sultan_1895-1948), on the Historical Articles Thread.

Source: www.stevesteinberg.net

Damon Runyon on Who's the Greatest Pitcher: Christy Mathewson, Grover Cleveland Alexander, or Walter Johnson

Before Damon Runyon became a famous short story writer in the 1930s, he was a popular sportswriter with the New York American in the ’teens and 1920s. In 1915, Christy Mathewson of the New York Giants was nearing the end of his brilliant career. Two other hurlers had emerged as greats: Walter Johnson of the Washington Nationals and Grover Cleveland Alexander of the Philadelphia Phillies.

When their careers came to a close, they ranked in the top four pitchers in career wins and shutouts, where they still rank in the 21 st century. Here are the top four:

Cy Young ------------------511 wins---76 shutouts
Walter Johnson ------------417 wins---110 shutouts
Christy Mathewson -------- 373 wins---79 shutouts
Grover Cleveland Alexander -373 wins---90 shutouts

On April 24, 1915, Damon Runyon wrote of these three great pitchers. In 1915, Alexander and Johnson still had more than a decade of pitching ahead of them. Baseball author Jim Reisler has edited and published a collection of Runyon’s baseball writing, Guys, Dolls, and Curve Balls, New York: Carroll and Graf, 2005.

Alexander vs. Johnson

Whenever we see Grover Cleveland Alexander pitching at top form, we conclude that he is the greatest right-handed pitcher in the land, and we cling to that conclusion until Walter Perry Johnson comes along with a line of his best pelting. Then we decide that Walter is the greatest, and we hold to that decision to the day that Alex reappears.

In short, our mind—probably none too stable at best—does a heap of vacillating between these Western wonders, and we are certain of only just one thing with respect to their ability—which is that it’s either Grover or Walter who is the greatest right-hander. On Mondays it might be Alex; on Tuesdays, Walter—but it’s one or the other so far as we are concerned.

This is merely a personal opinion to which you may not subscribe. You may think that Mathewson or Rudolph, or Bill James or Willie Doak is greatest, and we have no doubt that you can produce just as many arguments in support of your belief as we can offer in trying to bolster up our view, but it is our opinion that Johnson and Alexander today stand out head and shoulders above all the rest of the individual pitchers. [Note: Dick Rudolph and Bill James were stars of the 1914 champion Miracle Boston Braves. Bill Doak had a sensational 19-6 season with the St. Louis Cardinals in 1914.]

Not Yet Mathewson

We doubt if either of them will ever approach Mathewson when he was at his best, however, because we do not believe that either of them will ever make the study of their craft that Mathewson did. The Old Master will go down in baseball history as one of the greatest pitchers of all time, but neither Johnson nor Alexander has yet to make a place of that sort for himself in the memory of the game.

They are both great pitchers, but there have probably been many just as great—and there has been only one Mathewson. The oldest inhabitants of baseball rate the big Pennsylvanian right along with Radbourne [19 th century pitcher Hoss Radbourne, who also won more than 300 games]. Time is the big test of a pitcher, and in time Alexander or Johnson—or both—may prove as great as Mathewson, but that time is not yet.

For one thing, they have not had the opportunity. The mighty Mathewson was generally carrying a whole ball club on his back, and that ball club out in front, where it was most conspicuous. Time and time again it fell to him to fight the crucial battles of the big time outfit; to pitch the games on which hung the most important issues of the campaign, and he rarely failed.

Old Master Still Great

Even today you cannot count Mathewson wholly out when considering the question of the greatest pitcher in the country. In sagacity, in sheer mastery of his craft, he is probably still the greatest of them all; and it would be highly characteristic of the Old Master to bob up again this season with one of his best records, but he no longer possesses the physical strength that is behind the arms of the Kansas Cyclone and the Nebraska Thunderbolt. [Note: Mathewson finished 1915 with only an 8-14 record and would win only four more games after that.]

It happens that they have both been denied the glory that goes with a world’s series. Both gained fame with clubs that have since figured to a greater or less extent in the battles for the pennants, but in the main Johnson and Alexander had to fight their fight back behind the cheering. They were the Ruckers of the right-handers, so to speak, while Matty was nearly always up where the shouting was loudest. [Note: Nap Rucker was Brooklyn’s star pitcher since 1907 and had never been in the World Series. They would reach the Series the following year, Rucker’s final season.]

Some fans are dreaming this year of seeing Alexander and Johnson as opponents in the first game of the 1915 world’s series, but they are mostly Philadelphia and Washington fans who are having those dreams, and we doubt if the dreams will come true. It would be a grand sight, however, and it might help in solving the problem of which is greater—Johnson or Alexander. [Note: The Phillies were the surprise winners of the 1915 pennant, and Alexander did indeed start the first game of the Series. Johnson and Washington finally reached the World Series in 1924 and 1925, near the end of his career.]

Players Favor Alex

Ball players who have hit against both men—or rather those who haven’t hit against them, for there is never much hitting against Walter or Grover—say that the Nebraskan is the better of the two. They say that he has as much “stuff,” and knows how to use it better than Johnson.

In the matter of control last season they were about equal. Alexander passed seventy-six batsmen in forty-six games, while Johnson walked seventy-four in fifty-one pastimes. Alexander hit eleven, and Johnson nicked the same number. Walter cut loose fourteen wild pitches, and Alexander one. In point of average runs earned per nine inning game, Alexander shows up with 2.38, and Johnson with 1.71. [Note: Both men saw their earned run averages rise in the 1920s, the Lively Ball Era. Alexander finished with a career 2.56 e.r.a., and Johnson with a 2.17.]

Johnson had a much better club behind him last year than Alexander, and that undoubtedly helps a pitcher’s showing in the figures, but then Johnson was a great pitcher with a bad club, even as Alexander was great last season with a bad club.

The Nebraskan has none of what you might call the pitching style that marks the work of Johnson, or at least the pitching style that is favored by most baseball men. He tends to a side-arm motion in his pitching, and there are scouts in baseball right now who will not give a side-arm pitcher a second glance. They marvel that Alexander can have any control at all with that motion. On the other hand, Johnson has all the prescribed baseball “stance” to his flinging.

Alex Most Graceful

As a matter of personal choice, however, we would rather watch Alexander work than Johnson. To us it seems that he has more natural grace in the box, despite that motion, than the big Washington propeller. There are mighty few pitchers who come under the head of things of beauty when they are working, but Alex is one of them.

Mathewson is another. Rucker is still another. Rube Marquard is a pitching picture, So is Ray Caldwell. Spit ballers, like Jeff Tesreau, for instance, and the underhanded species do not interest the audience as much as the others, though they may be pitching better ball.

Johnson Works Today

This afternoon the New York fans will probably have the opportunity of seeing Johnson, as he is about due to work a game against the Yanks. There was a time when the Yanks could beat the big fellow with some regularity, and that was back in the time of George Stallings, but they usually did it through Walter’s catcher, Gabby Street, and the score was generally about 1 to 0.

Nowadays, with the club behind holding pennant aspirations, Johnson is about the hardest pitching proposition in the country, and no team entertains any great hope of victory when it stacks up against him. He is as hard as—well, say Alexander.

Bill Burgess

12-01-2006, 09:41 PM

I culled this from one of my files, Position Players. The following names nominated Walter Johnson as their choice for the Greatest Pitcher Ever, followed by their year of selection.
----------------
All Below called
Walter Best Ever

Hugh Jennings, 1912
George Moriarty, 1912
Jim Delahanty, 1912
C. Rarrel 1913
Damon Runyon, 1922
Nap Lajoie, 1933
Ring Lardner, 1933
Ed Brewster, June, 1938
Ed Rumill, 1942
Joe Dugan, 1942
Joe Jackson, 1942
Grantland Rice, 1943
Cy Young, 1943
Ward Morehouse, 1943
Tris Speaker, 1944
Del Baker, 1944
Frank Graham, 1944
Duffy Lewis, 1945
Tom Yawkey, 1945
Vincent Flaherty, 1946
Stuffy McInnnis, 1947
Ralph Kiner, 1950
Max Carey, 1950
Denman Thompson, 1952
Tommy Connelly, 1954
Bill McGowan, 1954
Bobby Wallace, 1954
Billy Evans, Umpire
Clark Griffith, 1955
Frank Baker, 1955
George Sisler, 1956
Ed Walsh, 1957
Ty Cobb, 1961
Mickey Cochrane, 1962
Carl Mays, 1963
Sam Crawford, 1964
Joe Wood, 1964
Jimmy Austin, 1964
George McBride, 1964
Davey Jones, 1964
Branch Rickey, 1965
Al Schacht, 1971
Joe Reichler, 1975
Lefty Grove, 1975
Fred Lieb, 1977
Ossie Bluege, 1982
Bill Wambsgnass, 1985
Jocko Conlon, 1985
George Uhle, 1987
Ray Schalk,
George Will, 1990
John McCarthy, Jr., 1994
Shirley Povich, 1997
Bob Broeg, 1998

csh19792001

12-01-2006, 10:48 PM

Here is an historical piece contributed by Randy (Sultan_1895-1948), on the Historical Articles Thread.

Players Favor Alex

Bill,
If it isn't there already, this should def go on the new Alexander thread.

Bill Burgess

12-02-2006, 05:45 PM

I want this thread to be more than evaluations of where Walter belongs on the all time pitchers list. I would hope this sheds light on Sir Walter the MAN. And in this interest, I will re-post 2 articles he wrote in the late 1920's for Baseball Magazine. One on who he considered the best all-around players, and another on who he thought were the best hitters. Hope you like them.
----------------------------
---------------------The Greatest Players I Ever Saw-------------------------------

The Best Natural Hitter--The Smartest Ball Player---The Speediest Hurler---The Greatest Pitcher---These Stand Out in Vivid Relief Against the Memories of Twenty Years

-----------------Comprising an Interview with Walter Johnson---------------
-----------------Baseball Magazine, October, 1929-------------------------

Who were the greatest players I ever saw? That's a question, or rather a whole series of questions. There have been many who stood out above the crowd in the past twenty years. But the top-notchers, well--a man can give only his opinion.

It seems but a little while ago that I came east from Idaho, a young rookie, green, wondering whether I would make good, stirred by the prospect of pitching in the great cities I had read about but never had seen. And now I am a "has-been," done with professional pitching forever, my only activity to sit on the bench, to watch others, to direct their play as well as I can, and to meditate about the great days when I could go in there myself, kick my spikes into the mound and face the opposing batter.

Two things I had when I came up--speed and control. They were all I needed for years. When my speed began to lessen, I tried to master curves and change of pace. But I can't say that I ever was more than indifferently successful. I often said that if a pitcher didn't have a good fast ball, he wasn't a pitcher. Now that it has left me, I'm willing to admit that I took a lot of comfort out of my fast ball.

Sport writers, fans, interested people everywhere have asked me how present day pitching compares, to my way of thinking, with pitching when I was in my prime.

Conditions are altogether different. I once went for more than fifty innings without allowing a run. I wouldn't guarantee to do that now, even if I were in my prime. The lively ball has struck deep at the heart of pitching.

I have seen Dazzy Vance pitch. I imagine he has more sheer speed than any pitcher now on the mound. But he has other things. He impressed me as being an all-round pitcher. He had a great curve, which was something I never could boast of myself. But I wouldn't want to say that Dazzy had more speed than any pitcher I ever looked at. That wouldn't be true.

In my opinion, and I suppose if there is any subject that I am qualified to discuss it is pitching. Rube Waddell had more sheer pitching ability than any man I ever saw. That doesn't say he was the greatest pitcher, by a good deal. Rube had defects of character that prevented him from using his talents to the best effect. He is dead and gone, so there is no need for me to enlarge on his weaknesses. They were well enough known. I would prefer to dwell on his strong points. And he had plenty.

There is one game that stands out in my memory above all, perhaps, that I have pitched. That was a game fairly early in my career, when I hooked up in a pitching duel with Rube Waddell.

Rube was a queer character and he could get indisposed more quickly than anyone I ever saw, when the mood seized him.

That day we scored a run off him in the first inning. This didn't please Rube at all. He wasn't feeling particularly ambitious that day, and as he came in to the bench, he started to limp. His leg, it seemed, hurt him a good deal. We had a coach at the time who had a deep knowledge of human nature and a particular knowledge of Rube Waddell's nature. He started after Rube, without an instant's delay. "You'd better be getting on your way to the showers," he said. "If you don't get out of the box, we'll knock you out."

Somehow, that remark got under Rube's skin. He really was a sensitive soul under it all. He made up his mind that he wouldn't quit. Instead, he came back the next inning with blood in his eyes, and from then on he gave the greatest exhibition of all-round speed and unhittable curves that I ever looked at. They scored a run off me, meantime, to tie up the tally. The game drifted into extra innings. In the eleventh inning they scored another run and beat me by 2 to 1.

In those eleven innings Rube struck out seventeen Washington players. Most of the time they were choking up on the bat and just trying to keep from getting struck out. But Rube burned them past in spite of everything.

There have been many arguments about pitchers' speed. Such arguments invariably hinge on personal opinion. When Waddell had a red letter day such as the one I have mentioned, and cut loose with everything he had, he showed an amazing amount of speed. But Rube was erratic and uncertain, and his pitching was decidedly unequal.

When I was in my prime, I could go in there and be sure that I had plenty of speed on tap. Besides, it didn't tire me to pitch. In spite of all the criticisms I encountered in the early days of my Big League career. I had an easy, natural delivery. Pitching a fast ball was second nature to me. It did not require any great exertion. I was always fast, when in shape, in those years. But, like Rube, I, too, had my red letter days.

Personally, I believe I know more about those red letter days than anyone else. They didn't always get into the records. In fact, they didn't always do me much good, for when I had more than my ordinary speed and cut loose with everything, as the saying goes, the ball would jump so much I couldn't control it.

Perhaps the best day I ever had, so far as speed was concerned, was in a game against the Athletics. I don't recall the date and I could not, off hand, give the year. But I remember the game as distinctly as if it was pitched last week.

A pitcher likes to cut loose when he has a fast ball, and I was no exception. I cut loose in that game, all right, but immediately got into trouble. One of my fast ones jumped, struck the catcher, who misjudged it, disabled one of his fingers and went through him. They put in another catcher, but I hadn't thrown three balls before I could see that he was going to have trouble holding my fast one. We finally compromised by having him put up his glove. I would pitch directly at the glove and then he could hold me. If I didn't, the ball would get away from him. There have been many times since when I have thought of that day and wished that I had all that stuff, more than I could use, and a catcher who could really hold me. But that's only an idle dream. We all have them, I suppose.

One thing I will say, without boasting. When I was young and strong, I could put the ball past the batter. I don't notice many pitchers doing it today. The difference between a very fast ball and a ball that's so fast it's practically unhittable may not be much, but it's that difference that tells the story.

Great pitchers have not necessarily excelled in speed. I remember Christy Mathewson very well. I saw him pitch a number of games. He is commonly rated as the best all-round pitcher who ever lived. That may be true. I hesitate to say anything which would detract to the slightest degree from the well-earned reputation of a man who was universally respected in life and who is now dead. But I am going to be honest with my opinion, such as it is. With all due respect to Mathewson, I think Grover Alexander had a little on him. I can think of nothing that Mathewson had that Alexander didn't have. Certainly Alexander had a marvelous fast ball. Not so speedy as some, it was particularly good because it was so deceptive. My fast ball jumped and frequently broke up. Alexander's fast ball broke down. Mathewson gained fame in his later years because of his fadeaway. But if he ever had a better fadeaway than Alec, I never saw it. Alec's screw ball is proverbial. Mathewson's control was gilt-edged. But even there I think Alexander could go him one better. Alec's control is as near perfection as it's humanly possible to get. I doubt if any pitcher ever lived who could put the ball as near where he wanted it to go, game in and game out, as Grover Alexander. I doubt if any pitcher will ever excel him in that respect.

Mathewson made a grand reputation and deserved it all. Usually, however, he had a strong, scrappy team behind him. Alexander has had many weak teams behind him in the years of his career.

They tell many tales of Matty's pitching wisdom. I have no doubt that he was a master of the craft. And yet, I can not think of anything worth knowing in pitching that Alexander doesn't know.

Alexander is what I never was, a well-rounded pitcher. He has everything. I am talking now of the years of his prime. Alexander is an old veteran now and can not last much longer, but he lasted longer than I did. And he lasted because he was such a well-rounded pitcher. When my great speed left me, my bid to pitching greatness went with it. When Alexander's speed left him, he fell back on an all-round assortment of stuff and an unbeatable control.

Pitchers are naturally impressed more by great natural hitters than by great fielders. But so, for the matter of that, is the general public. Think of stars ten years ago and you think of great hitters. Fielding, important as it is, seems to be merely incidental to baseball glory.

The greatest natural hitter that I ever saw was Joe Jackson. Joe passed out of it about the time the lively ball came in. It was a bad break for him. How he would have waded through the records with that fast ball to lengthen his hits! Joe's career was cut short by the Black Sox scandal. But I shall never believe that he was a bad fellow at heart. He was easily led and terribly misled by his associates. He paid a heavy penalty.

People have asked me if I didn't consider Babe Ruth the greatest of natural hitters. I certainly do not. There are many times when Babe looks terrible at bat. I've seen him miss a ball by two feet. Nobody ever saw Joe Jackson miss a ball two feet. Babe has his particular specialty where no one can equal him. He can hit a ball harder than anybody who ever lived. But why go outside that specialty and make claims for him that aren't true?

Babe is certainly a terrific slugger. No one can convince me that his equal ever lived since baseball graduated from the rounders stage. I, for one, do not expect to live long enough to see any other player come up who can hit the ball, day in and day out, as hard as Ruth. Some kind friends have claimed that Lou Gehrig can hit the ball nearly as hard as Babe. Perhaps he can, but if so, it's just nearly. Gehrig may be second best, but he's not and never will be Babe's equal in sheer slugging.

Among the old timers, Sam Crawford stands out in my memory. He too would have thrived in these days of the lively ball. I was touring the Pacific Coast in '24. Babe Ruth was there. I pitched against him and he drove out a tremendous fly for a long home run. Everybody began to yell. It was a true Ruth wallop. Then Sam Crawford came up, an old player long past his prime. I put a lot on the ball and he met it on the nose. It soared out and fell in almost the precise spot where Ruth had put it earlier in the game. That doesn't mean to say that Sam would hit the ball as hard as Ruth all the time or very often. But if he was playing at the Yankee Stadium now, and was in his prime, he'd belt a lot of homers into that right-field stand.

People ask me often if I don't consider Ty Cobb the greatest hitter I ever saw. I certainly don't. He was never in Joe Jackson's class as a natural hitter. A number of other hitters have excelled him in natural ability, in my opinion. There again, people go astray. Ty, like Babe, has honors enough without fastening others on him that do not belong.

Ty was the smartest player that I ever saw by so great a margin that I won't even bother to think who was second best. And that's credit enough. For brains are just as prominent in baseball as in any other profession. Ty was always about three jumps ahead of the crowd. That's what made him such a wonderful star. You could never dope out what he was going to do next. Always, he had you guessing. He had the infield up in the air. He was continually getting the catcher's goat. The outfield couldn't lay for Ty. They never knew where he would drive the ball.

There was a time when Ty was sore at me. That was when he was racing Joe Jackson for the Championship. Joe was hitting me much better than Ty. Ty accused me of putting the ball over for Joe. That was foolish, though I guess he was sincere. The fault lay rather in Ty's system and Joe's superior hitting ability. Joe would lay back with that black bat of his and merely slap at my fast ball. He always had a good chance to connect. Ty favored place hitting and beating out bunts. My fast ball, chest high, that had a tendency to jump, was a tough ball to place. It was also a tough ball to bunt. In later years Ty changed his system and had much better results against my pitching. He was too smart and resourceful to be buffaloed very long by any pitching on earth.

In sheer batting ability he had superiors. But in dazzling footwork, mechanical skill and lightning quick thinking he never had an equal. Ty has also graduated. He has taken with him most of the records in the American League. He needs no tribute from a "has-been" pitcher who could once bother him in the heyday of his prime. But I'll say of Ty, as I would say of Babe, he was unique.
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End of first article.

Bill Burgess

12-02-2006, 05:45 PM

-----------------The Greatest Batters I Have Ever Faced-----------------

In the Following Interview the Great Walter discusses the More Famous Batters Who Have Faced His Terrific Speed And Offers a Few Sage Comments on Pitching

From an Interview with Walter Johnson, Baseball Magazine, June, 1925, pp. 291, 292, 327, 329

Although I am the oldest veteran among American League pitchers, I have something in common with the rookie who is beginning his first season. For I, too, am starting all over again.

When the last man was retired to that great twelfth inning of the last and decisive World's Series game in October, I figured that my career as a Major League pitcher had come definitely to an end. It was the psychological moment for me to say good-bye. That was the most thrilling game that I have ever seen. Although as Joe Engle said, "The ground keeper really decided the Series," I was fortunate enough to be called upon to pitch the final innings and so receive credit for the victory. My wish had been granted. I had pitched in a World's Series and I felt that I could now write a fitting close to my eighteen years of Major League service.

There is, so we are told, a time for everything. That was my time to step aside and to prepare for the future. I felt that I owed it to my family to embark in some worth-while business venture, which would assure me a permanent income. I naturally looked to the Pacific Coast for such an opening. In that great and growing country, baseball has prospered and favors a veteran like myself. And I was reasonably certain to be able to pitch on the Coast for some years to come. Besides, I could have entered that field with the prestige of a World's Series behind me, as something of a drawing card. The stage seemed to be set for me and I have no doubt that had matters progressed as I thought they would, I should now be well located on the Pacific slope.

Unfortunately my efforts to obtain a suitable Pacific Coast League ball club were not destined to prove successful. And so it happened that after I had turned my back on familiar scenes and old associates, I found myself constrained to begin all over again with a two years contract and with uncertain though limited time at my disposal.

I won't deny that the winter was something of a disappointment. And yet, perhaps it was better so. A ball club is still a risky venture. I might not have made good. Anyway, I seem to have many friends in this part of the country who wish me well and hope that I may linger with them quite a little while to come.

I have been a long time in this League and with this ball club. Many things have happened and I can note a decided change in pitching standards. Ball clubs carry more pitchers than they used to and change them more frequently. But the big thing, I believe is the new ball and the particular rules which seen to govern the ball. It isn't so much that the ball now is use is livelier than it was years ago. What is fully as important is that fact that it is thrown out so often that you always seem to have a new ball in your hand. When I broke into the League most of the time a pitcher used a rather battered ball that was often discolored. Such a ball thrown with the speed that I used would hop a good deal, and because it was often discolored, it was harder to see. Pitching conditions as they exist now favor the batter a good deal.

Pitching does not seem to me to be as good as it was, though I may be prejudiced. I certainly pay little respect to stories of iron man pitching stunts like Radbournes'. I do not believe that any pitcher ever lived with more strength or endurance than Ed Walsh. I do not believe any pitcher ever lived who could pitch oftener than a number of pitchers who are wearing the uniform now. The style of game in these days was different. I don't say they were not good pitchers, but they had an easier job. There are kids on the sand lots who pitch every day and they think nothing of it. They wouldn't pitch every day in the Big Leagues however. No pitcher is going in there now and pitch twenty or thirty consecutive ball games. The pitcher hasn't changed but baseball has changed.

I believe it is just as hard to compare batters of the present with batters of twenty or thirty years ago. The lively ball has helped batters in recent years. But, on the other hand, there may be other factors which have handicapped batting. It's pretty hard to say. It is all right to compare batters who have worked in approximately the same period of time, but to compare batters of one generation with those of another generation is difficult and the records don't help you much. Perhaps my opinion is not worth any more than others, but this is my nineteenth year of facing Major League batters and I have faced some good ones during that time.

I wouldn't care to say who was the best hitter I ever faced. I never saw Hans Wagner but, I have faced Hornsby, but only in an exhibition game when he wasn't in his best form. No I am not in a position to judge just how good he is. Undoubtedly he has developed greatly in recent years. I am inclined to believe that the hitter who impressed me most of all those that I have faced was Lajoie. It is hard for me to believe that anybody could be a greater hitter than the Frenchman.

I would put Joe Jackson close to him, however. Joe was certainly one of the greatest natural hitters who ever lived. Poor Joe is out of it now and I feel sorry for him. Others were guilty. Joe was merely foolish. Tris Speaker was a great hitter, but I don't think he had quite the natural talent that Joe had.

Of course Ty Cobb has to be considered. But I don't class Ty with Joe Jackson or Lajoie. So far as natural hitting ability is concerned, they were his superior beyond any reasonable doubt. Where Ty had it on them and where he has it on any batter who ever lived is in amazing speed and tricky head work. He was always doing something, bunting, placing his hits here and there through the infield, slugging when he had to slug. An ordinary roller to short stop was a hit for Ty. If you're talking about great players, Ty is in a class by himself. But when I say that a fellow is a good hitter, I mean that he is naturally a good batter, quite apart from speed of foot, originality and all round head work.

Eddie Collins was a great hitter, but he was something of the Ty Cobb type. He was a fellow who always made his head help out his bating eye. Sam Crawford and Frank Baker were good heavy hitters, uncommonly good but they wouldn't rank with the Frenchman or with Joe Jackson.

Babe Ruth is the most dangerous hitter I ever saw, but he is not the best hitter. Like Ty Cobb, Babe has other talents which help out his batting. He is so big and strong that sheer strength works for him just as speed worked for Ty Cobb. Ty would beat out an infield hit by fast footwork. Babe will beat out an infield hit by sheer strength, for he will top a ball and still drive it through the infield for a hit.

The public figures a batter altogether by results. His average is what counts. But a pitcher figures a batter by his ability as a batter. Ruth will look worse in one game than Lajoie would look all season. He will sometimes get crossed up and miss a ball by two feet. Lajoie was a well nigh perfect hitter. Ruth, at times, is about as imperfect as anybody you could think of. But he is, with it all, naturally a good hitter and his prodigious strength and knack of driving the ball for long clouts makes him the most dangerous batter in the game.

I sometimes hear a batter say he likes curve pitching better than fast ball pitching . I'm inclined to doubt that statement myself. If a fast ball is very fast with a hop on it like a bullet, then it's hard to hit, but ordinarily a curve will bother a man more than a fast ball.

But I am just as strong for speed as I ever was. I have said, and still maintain it that if a man hasn't a fast ball, he isn't a pitcher. Fast ball pitching is natural pitching. The men who have lasted a long time in baseball always had good speed. Curve ball pitching is unnatural. It twists and wrenches the arm. So does the average slow ball. But fast ball pitching is just as natural for a pitcher's arm as it is natural for a dog to run.

Some people have been kind enough to tell me that they were glad I came back because I could perhaps break a few records over my long career. That is a phase of the question that I never even considered. For example, I don't know how many ball games I have won in my career or how near I am to equaling somebody else's record. I have won all that I could and let it go at that.

Strike-outs have been my specialty, but that is merely because my style of pitching naturally expresses itself in strike-outs. Generally you will find a speed pitcher strikes out more men than a curve pitcher. Some years ago I pitched a game in which I struck out ten men in the first five innings. Then we got a big lead and I didn't strike out any more. I didn't need to. Perhaps if I had set out to do so, I might have struck out fifteen or sixteen men. The last game of 1923 I struck out twelve men. I had struck out eleven and the crowd was rooting for me to make it a dozen. I didn't know what they were yelling about, for I never keep count of the number of strike-outs I make. But anyway I struck out the last man up and they were satisfied.

Having a lot of stuff may not enable you to strike out batters as well as considerably less stuff would do. When I first broke into the League I had so much stuff that I figured any batter who went in there swinging from the handle was bound to strike out once or twice during the game anyway. But the batters learned not to swing from the handle. They started meeting the ball so it was more difficult for me to strike them out. There are days now when I have a lot of stuff, the batters will choke up and punch at the ball. On days when I have less stuff, they may swing from the handle and I will strike out more of them.

A pitcher can never be certain to strike out any batter. But there are times when he already has two strikes on the batter and is in the hole himself, so he has to exert himself to retire the side that he can, if he has stuff enough, feel reasonably sure of fanning the batter. And that's the only time when a pitcher should exert himself to strike a man out.

What goes for strike-outs goes equally well for shut-outs. No pitcher ever deliberately pitches a shut-out, unless the score is 1 to 0 against him or there is no score at all. Ordinarily he merely aims to win his ball game. If there is a big score in his favor, he can afford to take things a little easier and he's foolish not to do this, for the pitcher will exert his arm enough in the general course of the season without exerting it unnecessarily.

The lively ball has made a baseball game much more uncertain that it used to be. There was a time when, if the club gave me a two-run lead, I felt that I could count on that game as already in. Now a two-run lead is nothing to get chesty about. A home run with a man on base will wipe out that lead.

Homers always were a black eye to a pitcher. Twice in my career I have lost ball games because the first man up hit me for a home run, the only score of the game. Doc Johnston did that once and Harry Hooper was the other batter. That was a tough break. Pitching through a game with the score 1 to 0 against you is a tough assignment anyway. You can't let the other club score any runs at all. And still, though you pitch shut-out ball, with the exception of that one slip, the best you can look for is a loss, unless your team pulls the game out of the fire.

The worst hole a pitcher can be in is to have three men on and nobody out. Still, that situation has its compensations. You can make a forced play at any base, but you've got to play a mighty tight game with no slips. Ordinarily I would rather have a man on second and third and nobody on first, than to have the bases full. That gives you a chance to work on the batter. Even if I pass him I am no worse off.

One of the best games I ever pitched was against the Red Sox when they were a great team. There was no score on either side and then in the ninth inning they got three men on with nobody out. But I managed to pull out of that hole and won the game in the fifteenth inning by the score of 1 to 0.

Fortunately a pitcher isn't called upon to face that bit of hard luck very often. It may not happen more than once or twice in a season. What happens rather often, however, and what is always a present danger, is a batting rally.

A batting rally is a queer thing. Sometimes it seems to come because a pitcher has begun to weaken. That isn't always the case, however. I know I have faced batting rallies when I was just as good as ever and knew it. But the boys had started to hit and they seemed determined to hit anything. What makes matters worse, from the pitcher's viewpoint, is the fact that such a rally seems to inspire every batter with more confidence. The fellow just up has made a hit and he's is going to make a hit. It's largely a matter of psychology.

Sometimes a batting rally is a bit of strategy on the manager's part. He has been studying the pitcher for some innings, instructing the batters to wait him out. And then, when he feels that the time is ripe, he orders them to hit. If his judgment is sound and he has picked the right moment, the batters may succeed in shelling the pitcher off the mound before he is able to protect himself.

Luck plays an important part in batting rallies. The batters are certainly getting the breaks. I have fooled batters at such a time with curves so badly that they hit the ball with the handle of their bats and still it went safe. In my opinion the only way to stop a batting rally is to call up some reserve speed, put everything you have on the ball and breeze it past them. A batter isn't going to hit a ball very hard that he can't see.

With this fast rabbit ball the pitcher not only has to figure the batter and the opposing team, but he also must take into consideration the ball park as well. For example, there are stunts that I would try at Washington, that I wouldn't try, for example, at the Yankee Stadium.

A pitcher can fall back occasionally on his reputation. I have always been known to have a good fast ball. There have been plenty of times when I could get by on speed and nothing else. The best curve ball ever invented wouldn't get a pitcher very far with nothing else. There have been games, however, when my speed wasn't right. I pitched a game two years ago when I really couldn't pitch a fast ball. I had been sick and my stuff had left me temporarily, so I pitched curves and slow balls and got away with it, simply because the batters were expecting every minute that I was going to cut loose with some speed. I fooled them for one game, but if I pitched that way very long they would murder me.

I do not pay much respect to wind up. I do not believe it deceives many batters. There have been pitchers with an effective wind up, particularly for a slow ball. Most peculiar wind ups are used by left-handed pitchers.

A pitcher feels good and bad by turns, like every other person. But feelings don't affect his work as much as you would suppose. I have gone into the game feeling great, only to be knocked out of the box. On the other hand, the best game, theoretically at least, that I ever pitched was when I was just recovering from an attack of grippe and didn't think I was able to work at all. I really had no idea of sticking through the game. I told Griff I would go in and pitch for an inning and see how I felt. I did this and told him I could work another inning. By that time my arm was pretty well loosened up so I finished the game without allowing a hit. I believe I deserved that no-hit game too, although such a game is always a trifle lucky.

Control is just as important to me now as it ever was . You can't over-rate a pitcher's control. I used to wonder what control really was. Now I think I know. It is comprised of four things-confidence, practice, condition and natural talents. If a man doesn't think he can get the ball over the plate, he can't get it over. Practice is important. All pitchers know that if they get rusty, their control suffers. Condition is very important, and by condition I mean not only physical health, but pitching in turn. A pitcher's arm is just right or it isn't just right. It's best when he takes his regular turn in the box. Those three things are all important, but you must add natural talent to round them out. Some pitchers can just naturally aim a ball more accurately than others. It's a gift.

Important as control is to a pitcher, it may be something of a defect. Take my own case for instance. I have often been told I would have been more successful if my control had not been so steady. The batters could always depend upon my getting the ball over the plate, or at least trying to, so they weren't gun shy. If I had had the reputation of being a little wild, they would have tried to avoid getting hit all the time and that would have bothered them.

Stuff is valuable to a pitcher, but there are times when too much of that is bad. On my very good days, I have sometimes had more stuff than I could use to advantage. The ball would hop a little too much and go wild. This only proves, I suppose, that it's possible to have too much of a good thing.

On the whole, I am inclined to believe that a base on balls bothers a pitcher more than a hit. There are three reasons for this. In the first place, a base on balls usually means more physical exertion than a hit. The pitcher must have given the batter at least four balls and quite possible two or three strikes, including fouls. A hit may have been made off the first ball pitched. In the second place, a hit is often an accident. A pitcher knows this quite as well as the batter. He knows that he had the batter fooled, but that luck broke with him. Accidents are unpleasant, but they don't impair his confidence in himself. That's no doubt the biggest injury he suffers from a base on balls. He's inclined to be suspicious of his own control.

For much the same reason hitting a batter bothers a conscientious pitcher worst of all. A speed pitcher like myself doesn't want to hit a batter, if he has any conscience, because he knows that he may injure that batter. If he hits a man he is therefore likely to be extra cautious not to hit the next fellow up and so may cut down a little on his stuff or get the ball right over the heart of the plate where it can be more easily hit.

You read a lot about bad balls. A bad ball isn't necessarily a ball that doesn't happen to be over the plate or is too high or too low. It's simply a ball that that particular batter likes. I believe there are about as many hits made off so-called bad balls as there are off perfect strikes.

I suppose I am pretty lucky to be able to pitch at all after all these years. And right now I am doubly lucky in being with a strong team that has just proved itself a champion. But I have had my ups and downs. This is my nineteenth year with Washington. True enough, I was glad to get there when they offered me a job for I was only a rookie in Idaho. Washington has treated me well, but at the same time I would have prospered much more, financially, with certain other clubs. Most of the time I have been with Washington, the team has been entirely out of the running.

This has hurt me in every way. In the first place, it has hurt my record. It has often been said that no modern pitcher would ever equal Cy Young's great record of winning over 500 ball games. I am very certain that I will never equal that record at least. But I might have done so had I been with a strong club instead of a weak club for going on nineteen years. I believe I would have won a hundred more ball games in those years. Everyone will agree that would have made some difference to my record.

A player values a record not only for its own sake, but because it affects his salary. He likes to be with a strong club not only because he wants to win, but because a strong club is prosperous and can pay him more money. There are players in this League who have been in five or six World's Series. That's a small fortune in itself.

While I appreciate the fact that my career has been by no means so profitable as it might have been had I signed, for example, with New York, I have never had any sympathy with fellows who laid down on the job with the avowed intention of being traded. Not a few players in this League have benefited by just such tactics, but I never would resort to such questionable methods myself I have always given my best work to the ball club every year. A player owes something to his own self respect.

I deliberately said good-bye to the American league and circumstances over-ruled me. Some day circumstances will compel me to say good-bye. When they do, I want to be able to leave the game with a free mind. I want to feel that I have nothing with which to reproach myself. I want to know that I have played a square game in a square way. (Interview with Walter Johnson, Baseball Magazine, June, 1925, pp. 291, 291, 292, 327, 329)

Bill Burgess

12-02-2006, 05:52 PM

Walter Johnson on Ty Cobb:
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1924 - Replying to the writer's query as to whom he considered the greatest all-around player player in the game, the pitcher said: That is a tough question, but if you insist upon an answer, my selection is Ty Cob. My reasons are several. He is oneof the greatest, probably the greatest batter, that ever lived. He is an excellent fielder and a most dangerous base runner. In fact, he is a star of the highest ranking in every department of the game. But the qualifications that I have already mentioned are not the only measures of Cobb's usefulness. It is the zest, the never-say-die spirit with which he plays that adds to his usefulness to the team. The fight and fire of his enthusiasm of his play are confusing to his opponents and spur his teammates to utmost efforts. In physical and temperamental equipment Ty is unexcelled and these things have put him on a pedestal as a figure that especially appeals to young player. (Washington Post, December 28, 1924, pp. SM4, "Walter Johnson's 20 Years On the Mound", as related to him by Lillian Barker)
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1925 - "In 18 years, I have never had an unfriendly word with Cobb. I consider him one of my best friends. Even when I landed from the wilds of Idaho, a raw and frightened kid, Cobb treated me right. He was always willing to fight to win, but I don't believe Cobb ever picked a fight just for the sake of a row. Leave him alone and treat him right and he is all you expect to find in a well-mannered Southern gentleman. But start something unfair and you'll get a fight--whether you're a ballplayer or a taxicab driver! It didn't take me long to size him up as a hot-headed young fellow who didn't mean half the things he said." (Walter Johnson by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, pp. 145)
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1925 - "Of course Ty Cobb has to be considered. But I don't class Ty with Joe Jackson or Lajoie. So far as natural hitting ability is concerned, they were his superior beyond any reasonable doubt. Where Ty had it on them and where he has it on any batter who ever lived is in amazing speed and tricky head work. He was always doing something, bunting, placing his hits here and there through the infield, slugging when he had to slug. An ordinary roller to short stop was a hit for Ty. If you're talking about great players, Ty is in a class by himself. But when I say that a fellow is a good hitter, I mean that he is naturally a good batter, quite apart from speed of foot, originality and all round head work." (Baseball Magazine, The Greatest Batters I Have Ever Faced, by Walter Johnson, June, 1925, pp. 291, 292, 327, 329; quote appears on pp. 292) (Essential article, discusses Lajoie, Joe Jackson, Speaker, Cobb, Eddie Collins, Frank Baker and of course, Babe Ruth.) I consider this essential reading.
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1929 - People ask me often if I don't consider Ty Cobb the greatest hitter I ever saw. I certainly don't. He was never in Joe Jackson's class as a natural hitter. A number of other hitters have excelled him in natural ability, in my opinion. There again, people go astray. Ty, like Babe, has honors enough without fastening others on him that do not belong.

"Ty was the smartest player that I ever saw by so great a margin that I won't even bother to think who was second best. And that's credit enough. For brains are just as prominent in baseball as in any other profession. Ty was always about three jumps ahead of the crowd. That's what made him such a wonderful star. You could never dope out what he was going to do next. Always, he had you guessing. He had the infield up in the air. He was continually getting the catcher's goat. The outfield couldn't lay for Ty. They never knew where he would drive the ball.

There was a time when Ty was sore at me. That was when he was racing Joe Jackson for the Championship. Joe was hitting me much better than Ty. Ty accused me of putting the ball over for Joe. That was foolish, though I guess he was sincere. The fault lay rather in Ty's system and Joe's superior hitting ability. Joe would lay back with that black bat of his and merely slap at my fast ball. He always had a good chance to connect. Ty favored place hitting and beating out bunts. My fast ball, chest high, that had a tendency to jump, was a tough ball to place. It was also a tough ball to bunt. In later years Ty changed his system and had much better results against my pitching. He was too smart and resourceful to be buffaloed very long by any pitching on earth.

In sheer batting ability he had superiors. But in dazzling footwork, mechanical skill and lightning quick thinking he never had an equal. Ty has also graduated. He has taken with him most of the records in the American League. He needs no tribute from a "has-been" pitcher who could once bother him in the heyday of his prime. But I'll say of Ty, as I would say of Babe, he was unique." (Baseball Magazine, October, 1929, pp. 487, 488, 517, "The Greatest Players I Ever Saw", by Walter Johnson) (quote apears on pp. 488, 517. Article covers; Waddell, Mathewson, Alexander, Joe Jackson, Ruth, Crawford, Cobb)
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1931 - "Cobb received another first-place vote from Walter Johnson, former great right-handed pitcher and now manager of the Washington Senators. Johnson was lavish in his praise of the "Georgia Peach." He gave Wagner second place and then named Jackson, Ruth and Collins. He had a hard time deciding between Collins and Speaker, with Eddie winning by a shade." (Philadelphia Ledger newspaper, C. William Duncan, late July, 1931) (Survey asked 12 major league managers and coaches, who they thought were the 5 greatest all-around baseball players who ever lived.)
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1942 - "He could do everything better than any player I ever saw. He was always the first one to detect weaknesses or mistakes of the opposition and benefit by the same." (The Sporting News, April 2, 1942, pp. 1 & 13) Greatest Player survey) Sporting News mailed out over 100 letters to former ML stars & managers. It asked, "Who do you consider the greatest ball player of all time" Why?"
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Walter Johnson/Ty Cobb: 1925
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image16-4.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/cobbtrainbl7.png

Bill Burgess

12-02-2006, 07:18 PM

---------------------------

Imapotato

12-04-2006, 06:30 AM

Big Train is my #2

He was great...but when he got older, and the game changed he went downhill in a big way (in retrospect to how great he was in his 20's)

Only 1 pitcher went through so many changes of the game and DOMINATED everytime

That man is 511 wins...Denton True "Cy" Young

from 1901 when Nap Lajoie gets no credit for his great year because offense was SOOO high....there is Cy Young....dominating on a weak Red Sox team

To 1903, winning the 1st World Series...after developing the 1st real changeup in baseball the year before...

From being the Pitcher who has the best % of his team wins in history (a very overlooked stat...shows the will to win)

To becoming storylike the 1st pitcher to pitch a Perfect Game in the AL, and in the fashion of revenge against Rube Waddell, so much so that he didn't realize he did it and yelled at Waddell, calling him hayseed, because Rube got cocky against Cy in the past

To underhand, 50 feet, to deadball, to cork center

Big Train just can't top being dominating in 3 different eras and being a main clog in the invention of the modern game like Cy Young was...and what knocked Cy out...was not because he couldn't pitch...because he pitched very fast up until his 80's...but because of his knees...teams would bunt on him all the time in his last 2 years, yet he still did quite well for what in our time would be like a 55 year old Pitcher on the mound.

AS FOR CLEMENS

Sorry, any pitcher who has 3 mediocre years in Boston...then at the HEIGHT of the Steroid era goes on to win 2 Cy Young (THE MAN) Awards and have a second life...only to get implicated
by a former dealer of steroids (Grimsley)

well no way is Clemens #2

Bill Burgess

12-04-2006, 06:37 AM

If one studies the photos closely, one will notice that many of Walter's uniforms came with a blue trim at the sleeves. He must have taken a scissors and trimmed the blue trim off of his sleeve of his pitching arm. So it wouldn't flap and distract him. Check out many of Walter's photos, to see if you can notice his left arm sleeve retains its trim, while his throwing arm sleeve doesn't.

Christy Mathewson also did the same thing, only more so. Christy would cut his sleeve off real high on his throwing arm. See if you notice that?

Bill

Bill Burgess

12-04-2006, 06:39 AM

Jason R. Maier Contributed this yesterday, but it ended up at the beginning of the thread. 01-01-2002, 04:02 AM
Orioles/Nationals fan Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In between Orioles and Nationals turf
Posts: 98

Nice photos.

I would have liked to have seen a 'theoretical' pitchers duel between the Big Train and the Big Unit. Both would get a bunch of K's.

BTW, what was Walter's highest number of K's in a single game?

Nice pictures.

And what was Walter's highest total of K's in a single game?

It would have been cool to see him and the Big Unit in a pitcher's duel. A lot of K's indeed

Cool photos

Bill Burgess

12-04-2006, 06:45 AM

Big Train is my #2
JT,

It is SO good to see you again, brother. Please don't deprive us of your company and presence again. You are an integral cog in the Fever wheel.

old friend,
Billy Boy

Murderers Row

12-04-2006, 09:00 AM

As of December 2006, I have Walter first, but Clemens is right on his heels. One more season anything close to what Clemens has been doing Clemens pulls ahead, with the aid of a mental LQ note.

Bench 5

12-04-2006, 09:23 AM

I posted this last year after doing research on the speed of Johnson's fastball so I thought that it should be added here. As a kid in the 70's I read in Baseball Digest that Walter Johnson was timed at 99.7 MPH. This speed was also attributed to Johnson by Robert Adair in the Physics of Baseball.

In order to verify this story, I went on ProQuest and looked up any and every article I could find about attempts to measure the speed of pitchers prior to Bob Feller in 1946. (I think that the 1946 timing on Feller has become accepted as the first "reliable" timing of a pitcher's fastball.)

Below is what I found:

Walter Johnson and Nap Rucker were timed by the Remington Arms Factory in 1912. The electronic timing device was used to measure the speed of bullets so the box that they had to throw into was near shoulder height. The front of the 2' x 2' box was about 60 feet from where they threw the ball. They were both in street clothes although they took their jackets off. The device measured the speed of the ball as it passed the front end of the box until it smashed into a steel plate at the end of a box which was 5 yards long. So the test measured the speed as it traveled between 60 - 75 feet from the pitcher's hands. They both threw several times before they were able to hit a wire to trip the recording. Both had three times measured and Johnson's best was 122 feet per second (83 MPH) and Ruckers was 113 (77 MPH). Considering that a modern radar gun measures the speed of a ball as it leaves the pitcher's hand, the times above would register about 9-10 MPH faster by today's method of measuring speed. A ball loses 1 MPH for every 8 feet traveled from the start of the pitch.

In a Washington Post article in 1929 the writer states that Bill Tilden's serve was timed at 85 MPH by the Bureau of Standards and that Walter Johnson was timed at 113 MPH by the Bureau of Standards. The same article states that a ball was measured at 75 MPH off the bat of Babe Ruth.

In an article by Shirley Povich in 1937 it claims that Walter Johnson was timed at more than 100 MPH.

In the 1939 article that I mentioned in my earlier post, Walter Johnson was credited with throwing a ball 134 feet per second (91 MPH) with Joe Wood throwing 124 feet per second and Christy Mathewson 127. This story states that the test took place in 1917.

So either a) Johnson's fastball was measured by another recording device subsequent to the 1912 story or else b) over the years the original story was misreported due to bad memory etc. Either way considering that he threw the ball in street clothes without a mound and without warm-ups, I have no doubt he could chuck the ball close to 100 MPH.

FatAngel

12-04-2006, 10:50 AM

It´s possible that there are films with him pitching to a catcher from a mound, at least from his twilight years. They could add some knowledge about his true speed.

Bill Burgess

12-27-2006, 06:52 AM

csh1979-2001 found this footage of Walter Johnson pitching to Babe Ruth in 1942, for a WWII fund raiser at Yankee St. Shows Johnson's delivery in real time. Too bad it's only for one pitch. Also shows Babe's swing.

http://www.memorylaneinc.com/lot/lot1/lot1storymain.html

Great footage, guys.

Bench 5

12-27-2006, 03:54 PM

Here are some Walter Johnson pics from an article in Baseball Magazine in October 1913. The series of articles was titled "Pitching Science - Part One of Three, The Secret of Walter"

His "secret" per the article is that he had a tremendous wingspan.

Bench 5

12-27-2006, 03:55 PM

Picture 2 from the same article

Bench 5

12-27-2006, 03:56 PM

Picture 3 from the same article

iconcepts

03-11-2007, 10:00 PM

"All-Time Pitching Greats at Old-Timer's Game at Fenway" July, 1939. Left to Right: "Smokey" Joe Wood, Cy Young, Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson. Grove was still an active pitcher for the Red Sox at the time of this photograph. Wood was the coach of the Yale varsity baseball team from 1922 to 1942.

From the Leslie Jones Collection of the Boston Public Library.http://www.i-concepts.org/images/cards/pitchgreats_1.jpg

Bench 5

11-14-2007, 07:24 PM

I have a bunch of anecdotal facts about Johnson that I am going to post. The first one is in regards to how some all time greats did against him. I have read that Ty Cobb batted .366 against Walter for his lifetime. Early on, he didn't hit that great against him.

I found a couple articles from 1914-1915 that show how TC and Eddie Collins fared against Walter up to that point in time. When Walter was in his prime, he fared quite well against Cobb and he pretty much owned Collins.

As of 1914, Collins was at 16 for 110 versus Walter for an average of .144.
As of 1915, Cobb only hit .233 versus Walter over the last five seasons. (There is likely a typo on the page so he was 31 for 133 with 9 runs scored if the average is correct).

Bench 5

11-14-2007, 07:49 PM

Here are excerpts from research performed by Raymond J. Gonzalez. Mr. Gonzalez put together a list of all of the homers hit off Walter Johnson in his career.

Johnson gave up only 97 homers in 5,942 innings pitched.
Johnson allowed 40 homers at home and 57 on the road.
Nearly half of the homers hit off him at home (mainly Griffith Stadium) were inside the park.
There were three seasons in which he did not give up any homers: 1908, 1916, and 1919.
He pitched 372 innings in 1916 and that is a record for most innings pitched without allowing a home run.
In 1909, 1910, and 1915 he gave up only one homer each year and each was an inside the park homer. That means that from 1908 through 1910, nobody hit a ball over the fence off Walter Johnson. (The rest of the Washington pitchers gave up 45 homers in the same time period).
He gave up 64 homers to lefties and 33 to righties.
He gave up 40 homers in Washington, 15 in New York, 15 in Philadelphia, 8 in St. Louis, 7 in Detroit, 5 in Cleveland, and 0 in Boston.
The first homer he ever gave up was in August 2, 1907 to Sam Crawford of the Tigers.
The last homer he gave up was to Marty McManus of the Tigers on August 22, 1927.

Here's a list of homers allowed to some all time greats:

Babe Ruth - 10
Frank Baker - 5
Lou Gehrig - 4
Al Simmons - 4
George Sisler - 2
Eddie Collins - 2
Tris Speaker - 2
Same Crawford - 2
Ty Cobb - 1 (9/22/1917)

Only two players ever hit two homers in the same game:

Jack Fournier - August 31, 1914 (both inside the park at Griffith stadium)
Lou Gehrig - August 13, 1926 (at Griffith Stadium)

Walter gave up only two grand slams:

John Tobin of the Browns - August 6, 1922
Harry Hooper of the White Sox - June 16, 1924

AstrosFan

11-14-2007, 08:07 PM

Johnson pitched 369 2/3 innings in 1916, not 372.

One thing that interests me about Johnson and home runs is that he had his worst rate of HR/9 relative to the league in his best season. Anyone know the cause of that, or is it just one of those flukey things that could happen to anyone?

Bench 5

11-14-2007, 08:18 PM

It's likely that at the time when Mr. Gonzalez did his study, the number of innings recorded was at 372. My version of Total Baseball (1990) has him at 371 for 1916. The Baseball Hall of Fame which is based upon Elias Sport Bureau still lists him with 371. There are several other discrepancies in his "official" records as compared to BBR for other items as well.

Bench 5

11-14-2007, 08:27 PM

Here's an article from 1917 written by McClurg Douglass that lists Johnson's accomplishments up through the 1916 season.

Through the 1916 season here are Johnson's best strikeout games (10 seasons):

16 - versus St. Louis Browns in 11 innings
14 - versus Browns in 9 innings
13 - accomplished 3 times
12 - accomplished 5 times
11 - accomplished 8 times
10 - accomplished 15 times
9 - accomplished 15 times
8 - accomplished 27 times
7 - accomplished 34 times

Here is a list of his small ball games up through 1916 (10 seasons):

0 hitter - 0*
1 hitter - 4
2 hitter - 13
3 hitter - 17
4 hitter - 39
5 hitter - 40

*Walter eventually got his no-hitter.

Bill Burgess

12-26-2007, 06:50 PM

Sir Walter returns to Washington, DC, October 1, 1924, accompanied by his mother, Minnie, and wife, Hazel.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image11-6.jpg

Minnie Olive (Perry) Johnson (mother): Born: March 14, 1867 - Died: December 3, 1967, age 100.
Hazel Lee (Roberts) Johnson (wife): Born: February 8, 1894 - Died: August 1, 1930, age 36.

OleMissCub

12-26-2007, 08:05 PM

Gif I made of Walter:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif

Also, does anyone know what caused his wife to die so prematurely?

Bill Burgess

12-26-2007, 09:48 PM

Gif I made of Walter:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/627/waltergifdx0.gif

Also, does anyone know what caused his wife to die so prematurely?
Wow, do I love that video you made of Sir Walter!!! Just love it, love it, love it. Thanks a million, OleMissCub!!

Could you do that for Dizzy Dean too??

About his wife dying so young, there had been a major heat wave, and she had driven from Kansas to Wash, DC, and it just sapped all her strength, and exhausted her. It was kind of a freak thing. And when she got back to DC, she went immediately to bed to try to recover. But she couldn't, and passed away.

Walter went almost insane with grief. He kept asking eveyone, "How could God do this to me?" He was left with a lot of kids to raise on his own. He never really got over her death. They were like Burns & Allen, Fred Astaire and his wife. Some couples are so committed that they just don't move on.

OleMissCub

12-26-2007, 10:14 PM

Merry Christmas Bill:

http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/dizpitch.gif

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7468/dizzygif2ot2.gif

I've got tons of these gif files of the old timers pitching or swinging...I should probably make a thread or something and post all of them.

Bill Burgess

12-27-2007, 06:14 AM

Merry Christmas Bill:

I've got tons of these gif files of the old timers pitching or swinging...I should probably make a thread or something and post all of them.
That's be good!! What a Christmas gift to us all!

Bill

BoofBonser26

01-09-2008, 04:11 PM

I consider myself reasonably baseball literate, and I only discovered today that Walter Johnson managed the Cleveland Indians. Shame on me! :blush:

csh19792001

02-25-2008, 03:49 PM

This in response to the claim that Walter Johnson was "A Slow Starter":

Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:10:16 -0500
From: Frank Vaccaro <vaccol@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Walter Johnson, Slow Starter

No one can be blamed for looking at Walter Johnson's first three encyclopedia years and concluding that he hadn't yet shown greatness.

However, game reports and descriptions of him during that time clearly refer to him as a superstar. He was called the "Idaho Wonder" or "Idaho Phenom" in his 1907 starts with references to having the greatest fastball in history - Amos Rusie the popular comparison. On August 21, 1909, catcher Gabby Street caught a ball dropped from the Washington Monument and said it was like a Johnson fastball. Johnson was hampered by 1) Washington having one of MLB's weakest offenses and by 2) surgery before 1908 which caused him to miss the first two months of the season. He also seemed to be 3) flustered fielding bunts during this time (I spotted two losses due to this), 4) started each year slowly (1-4 in 1907, 1-6 in 1908, and 0-5 in 1909) and 5) finished his Septembers with a tired arm. (1-3 in 1907, 2-6 in 1908, and 1-3 in 1909 after an August 25 arm strain in Cleveland.) His 1907-1909 record not including these poor season starts and finishes was 25-20.

Johnson resolved all five of these issues by 1910 just as high-octane fast ballers Koufax and Ryan also resolved their own issues. Johnson was the first great modern pitcher - in my opinion - insofar as he was the first to combine Cy Young's use of his legs with Christy Mathewson's mechanics. With unnaturally long and odd-looking arms and a smooth whip-like delivery Johnson's speed seemed to terrify even fans in the stand. Opposing batters, reportedly, never used their "good" bats against him as they would be shattered by any unbalanced contact. Batters also said an un-fun "Goodbye" to the on-deck batter when they strode to the plate to face him. I don't think he relied on a curve or any off-speed pitch until the 1920's.

The big change for Johnson from 1910 and onwards can be summed up in five words: he put the hammer down.

Here's Walter Johnson's record given his run support during 1907-1909.

8 runs 1 game 1-0
7 runs 2 games 2-0
6 runs 3 games 3-0
5 runs 4 games 2-2
4 runs 3 games 1-0
3 runs 15 games 6-8
2 runs 17 games 9-6
1 runs 18 games 6-11
0 runs 15 games 0-15

Totals: 78 starts, 30 wins, 42 losses in those starts. I suspect it is significant that in only about one in six starts could Johnson count on receiving more than three runs. (Data based on modern method in assigning wins and losses. I don't have access to official data.)

Frank Vaccaro

George H Ruth

02-26-2008, 01:50 PM

Walter wearing a suit and top hat
http://www.cmgworldwide.com/baseball/johnson/images/wj02.jpg

Walter with baby
http://www.cmgworldwide.com/baseball/johnson/images/wj07.jpg

Walter with teamate
http://www.cmgworldwide.com/baseball/johnson/images/wj05.jpg

Walter showing off one his pitch
http://www.cmgworldwide.com/baseball/johnson/images/wj03.jpg

Walter leaning on the edge of the dugout
http://www.frankwu.com/WalterJohnson.jpg

Supposely the first picture of Walter in a Senators uniform
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/07/31/PH2007073101657.jpg

Walter Johnson re-create young George Washington's reputed coin toss across the Rappahannock.
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/022006/02202006/0220washington/lo0219johnson.jpg

Left to Right: "Smoky" Joe Wood, Cy Young, Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson.
http://www.i-concepts.org/images/prints/st11466.jpg

Walter Johnson with some young fans
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/5866/johns1.jpg

BSmile

02-28-2008, 10:02 AM

Here's some great pic's that I haven't seen around BBF yet:

1) Let's start with a HUGE one. The 1924 Wash.Senators visit the White House - September 2, 1924. That's Walter standing to the right of Pres. Coolidge.

2) A very rare picture from the dugout during the "Addie Joss Day Game" - July 24, 1911. (from left to right): Gabby Street, Frank "Home Run" Baker, Walter Johnson & Smokey Joe Wood. (I did a lot of cleaning on this one)

3) Finally (for now) two pictures from a ceremony honoring Walter's 20th year with the Senators, 1927.

More to come....

Cheers! ~B

BSmile

03-04-2008, 10:47 AM

Pictures from Walter Johnson Day - June 18, 1925
Really nice quality...

BSmile

03-04-2008, 10:53 AM

1) Walter hitting some fungoes at the 1934 All-Star Game (New York)

2) Walter Johnson - Getting the 1913 Triple Crown Award

3) Muddy Ruel & Walter Johnson - 1940's

4) 1924 Washington Senators Team pic

5) Panoramic of WJ Day - June 18, 1925

Brian McKenna

03-04-2008, 11:03 AM

Love these old crowd shots - you can see President Collidge, Ban Johnson, Clark Griffith, among others on Johnson Day.

That fungo picture reminds me that it is rare to see pictures of pitchers at bat.

BSmile

03-04-2008, 11:13 AM

1) Walter poses for while U.S.J. Dunbar sketches him, 10.2.1924

2) Dunbar presents the statue he made of Walter to Pres. Coolidge

3) Walter warms up - April 11, 1924

4) Walter warms up before the 1925 World Series

5) Walter and his daughter Caroline - July 21, 1924

BSmile

03-04-2008, 11:20 AM

1/2) Walter takes some BP - 1925

3) Another warming up pic - 1924

4) Walter takes over as manager - April 17, 1929

Bill Burgess

03-04-2008, 02:50 PM

Wow, Wow and Super Wow! Where in the world did you find these treasures? What are the links? Just love them.

BSmile

03-04-2008, 03:36 PM

Some pictures of Walter Johnson's 20th Anniversary with Washington - August 2, 1927.

Clark Griffith, middle background.
37036
Clark Griffith, background right.
37037

With Umpire Billy Evans to the right.
37038
Clark Griffith at the right.
37039
Clark Griffith on the right.
37040

GaryL

03-05-2008, 06:05 PM

Great Walter Johnson pictures...thanks for posting them! I especially enjoyed them since just today I finished reading the great biography of Walter Johnson written by his grandson, Henry Thomas.

Might be sort of fun to try to identify all the players in that wonderful team picture with Coolidge from 1924. I can pick out a bunch of them already without too much effort. If you think it would be worth it, I'd be glad to try (as I love trying to identify old pictures!).

Thanks again!
Gary

GaryL

03-07-2008, 06:31 PM

For anyone who's interested, I spent a little time identifying that team picture of the 1924 World Champion Washington Nationals with President Coolidge. Here's what I came up with:

Back Row: Trainer Mike Martin, Slim McGrew, Bennie Tate, Joe Judge, Al Schacht, Roger Peckinpaugh, Mule Shirley, Bucky Harris, Tom Zachery, President Coolidge, Walter Johnson, George Mogridge, Clark Griffith, Fred Marberry, Alan Russell, Ralph Miller, Goose Goslin, Sam Rice, Muddy Ruel, Pinky Hargrove.

Front Row: Curley, Ogden, Paul Zahniser, Byron Speece, Joe Matina, Nick Altrock, Earl McNeeley, Nemo Leibold, Tommy Taylor, Ossie Bluege.

The two kids: first is probably Al Schacht's son, and the second is almost certainly Walter Johnson, Jr.

I can't say that I got all the players identified 100% correct, but I think there's reasonable certainly on most of them.

Victory Faust

03-07-2008, 07:27 PM

This is something I posted here a few years ago, but I thought I would repost it for those who didn't see it originally:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________________

I work as a reporter for The Detroit News, and when things are slow I love sneaking up to our wonderful library/morgue on the 4th floor and going through all the archives -- especially the baseball stuff. We have clips going back to when our paper first started in 1873, so our libary is a great place for a baseball history buff like me.

But I found a treasure in a non-baseball area of the library, hidden in a bookshelf behind books about journalism. It was an innocent-looking blue folder, with a sticker on the front that read, "Recollections of W.S. Gilmore, Editor, The Detroit News, 1933-1953."

Gilmore, it is revealed in this typewritten manuscript, began working at The Detroit News as a reporter in 1909. He became an editor in 1933.

In his manuscript, which was never published, he relays the following fascinating story about Walter Johnson:

We had more unusual characters then than now. There was Dummy, the deaf-mute boy in the composing room. Dummy wanted to be a pitcher and he spent all his spare time trying to learn to pitch because at that time the big leagues had a number of deaf-mute players.

Dummy had written letters to Walter Johnson, who was a great pitcher of his day, asking Walter to do the best he could to teach him by mail how to pitch. And, one night, Walter Johnson walked into the room.

My desk was nearest the door and he came over to the desk and said, “I am Walter Johnson. Do you have a boy here, a deaf-mute working in the composing room?”

I said yes, and he said, “I have had several letters from him in which he wants me to give him lessons about pitching, and I thought I would come over and give him a lesson in person.”

So I said, “well, I’ll bring the boy in,” and I went out to the composing room and motioned to Dummy to come in. When he came into the city room, I thought he would faint with excitement when he saw who was standing there. Everyone knew Walter Johnson then, he was the great pitcher of the day.

So Walter said, “now, I will teach this boy if you’ll give me some room to work in,” and I said, “well, go into the back room, I’ll turn on the lights back there and you can take all the time you want.”

And Walter took the kid back and he spent an hour showing him how to hold the ball for various kinds of balls to pitch and how to pitch an underhead ball, an overhead ball, sidearm and everything else – he was there about an hour.

And the composing room boys, when they learned who was in there with Dummy, came in two or three at a time to watch. And, when it was finally time for Walter to go, the whole composing room went into the city room and gave him three loud cheers for helping an ambitious and afflicted kid like that. And Walter gave Dummy six autographed balls, and again he almost fainted with excitement.

I found it fascinating -- and revealing. Obviously, Walter Johnson was every bit as nice as his reputation.

There are some other great non-baseball anecdotes in this manuscript as well, but I thought members here would get a kick out of the Walter Johnson stuff.

GaryL

03-08-2008, 12:42 PM

Great story!...Thanks for posting! As I mentioned earlier, I just finished reading the great biography of Walter Johnson a couple days ago...so I really enjoyed reading this story.

BSmile

03-08-2008, 01:25 PM

Great story indeed Victory Faust! And Gary, I guess I'll have to read the WJ biography soon. In the mean time....here's Walter having a new car presented to him on October 8, 1913.

George H Ruth

03-08-2008, 03:27 PM

Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson having fun
http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt3k4017k9/hi-res

Walter Johnson staring us down
http://memory.loc.gov/ndlpcoop/ichicdn/s0656/s065647.jpg

Walter and Smoky Joe
http://www.famousfoto.com/B152.JPG

Walter and Gehrig
http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/mipakaco/johnsongehrig.JPG

BSmile

03-08-2008, 03:43 PM

1) Walter show President Coolidge his curveball grip - Sept. 9, 1924

2) Closeup of Walter & the Senators with President Coolidge - Sept. 28, 1925

George H Ruth

03-08-2008, 03:47 PM

Walter has Cleveland's manager
http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/conlon/johnson/images/johnson4.jpg

Walter with horse(not sure if this been posted yet)
http://bobsbaseballmuseum.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/walter_johnson_wire_1.232154112_std.jpg

GaryL

03-08-2008, 04:01 PM

BSmile:
These are great Walter Johnson pictures! I loved the team pictures with Coolidge. May I ask you where you got them?

The little kid in the group picture above with Coolidge is Walter Johnson, Jr.

Sultan_1895-1948

03-09-2008, 02:22 PM

Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson having fun

Love that Walter and Ruth picture. Something I hadn't payed much attention to before when looking at that picture. Walter was a big guy for the time. Tall and long. But check out Ruth's hands compared to his. They dwarf 'em. Gives you an idea of the strength he must have had in those meathooks.

Victory Faust

03-09-2008, 03:05 PM

There is an audio file at this link ...

http://www.archive.org/details/CompleteBroadcastDay

... of Walter Johnson broadcasting a Washington Senators-Cleveland Indians game in 1939. The file is part of an entire broadcasting day on Sept. 21, 1939 from radio station WJSV in Washington.

And for those of you who aren't hep to it, there are some awesome baseball clips on the archive.org site. I strongly urge you to check it out!

Bill Burgess

03-09-2008, 04:25 PM

there are some awesome baseball clips on the archive.org site. I strongly urge you to check it out!
What is the path to these awesome clips?

George H Ruth

03-12-2008, 05:15 PM

Walter Johnson and Connie Mack
http://images.mastronet.com/images/Auction29/photographs/37151072.jpg

BSmile

03-13-2008, 07:14 AM

1) Tris Speaker & Walter Johnson at the 1939 All-Star Game - Yankee Stadium

Baseball Guru

03-13-2008, 12:27 PM

What is the path to these awesome clips?

http://ia310136.us.archive.org/2/items/CompleteBroadcastDay/WJSV_390921-COMPLETE_BROADCAST_DAY_PART_11.MP3

That link will take you directly to the ballgame:)

Bench 5

08-15-2008, 10:28 PM

Warming up......check out the great arm rotation.
49895

You can really see his tremendous wingspan in action from these pics.
49896

Bench 5

08-15-2008, 10:34 PM

The granddaddy of the fireball kings....
49898

His arm is like a whip....
49900

Bringing the heat...
49901

Pitching in game as seen from his back....
49899

csh19792001

10-22-2008, 01:31 PM

This looks to be a fantastic piece of work here!!

Enjoy!!!

"THE CALIFORNIA COMET"?
WALTER JOHNSON IN THE GOLDEN STATE (http://cwcfamily.org/wj/cc0.htm)

WALTER JOHNSON -- CALIFORNIA GAMES (http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ccstats.htm)

Bill Burgess

11-01-2008, 11:28 AM

-----1918-21
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/59322a.jpg

----September, 1925
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/60254.jpg

-------March 4, 1924, spring training.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/59321a.jpg

lollar

11-16-2008, 12:07 PM

Don't know if this has been posted before. This is a great photo showing different grips Johnson used. Looks like 2 and 4 seam fastballs; curve; palmball; knuckler.

gman5431

11-17-2008, 08:16 AM

I have Walter Johnson second - behind Grove. His 13 season is one of the top 3.

G Man

SHOELESSJOE3

01-11-2009, 11:23 AM

Speaking of Walter Johnson, an article from 1914.

SHOELESSJOE3

01-11-2009, 11:42 AM

Johnson wants out of Washington, in the end he's back home.

BSmile

01-11-2009, 01:58 PM

I don't have a specific year on this pic...anyone know who the White Sox player is (or coach/mgr)??
Looks like 1930-31, when Walter was managing the Senators.

BSmile

01-11-2009, 02:02 PM

Walter Johnson - 1931

BSmile

01-11-2009, 02:07 PM

Walter Johnson & his horses
I've got a bunch of pictures of Walter that I've been meaning to post...sorry they're not exactly baseball related.

BSmile

01-11-2009, 02:11 PM

Another odd picture of Walter. I have no idea what's going on here...

It shows Walter giving Sol Bloom a silver dollar on the occaion when Walter threw a silver dollar across the Rapahannock River, as George Washington was supposed to have done.

They are dressed like that, with Charlie in Revolutionary War clothes and all.
[On February 22, 1936, Walter threw a silver dollar across the Rappahannock River. The river then measured 272 feet wide at that point of the toss, but Walter's toss was estimated to travel 317 feet. Someone claimed that when Washington supposedly did it, it measured 1,500 feet across.]

Pere

01-11-2009, 02:20 PM

I've got a bunch of pictures of Walter that I've been meaning to post...sorry they're not exactly baseball related.

Any picture Walter Johnson appears in, is baseball-related. :cap:

BSmile

12-18-2009, 08:55 PM

Well here's a thread bump with this:
The program from the June 21, 1947 Walter Johnson Memorial Unveiling Game.
Where does this memorial presently reside?

SHOELESSJOE3

12-18-2009, 09:34 PM

I don't have a specific year on this pic...anyone know who the White Sox player is (or coach/mgr)??
Looks like 1930-31, when Walter was managing the Senators.

I think you've got it. Just a quick glance. The only two years I could find where both players would be wearing the uniforms shown in the same seasons, the caps, the White Sox logo and Walter's single stripe socks, looks like 1930 or 1931.

SHOELESSJOE3

12-18-2009, 09:59 PM

Well here's a thread bump with this:
The program from the June 21, 1947 Walter Johnson Memorial Unveiling Game.
Where does this memorial presently reside?

Not sure, supposedly original site Walter Johnson High School. Then "possibly" to the Washington Nationals Park. There is a bronze statue at the park but I'm not sure if this memorial is also at the park, I think it is.

Here is the unveiling in June 1947.
Minnie Johnson, Clark Griffith and President Truman.

Second Base Coach

12-19-2009, 11:39 AM

Bench 5

06-25-2011, 07:50 PM

I just noticed that they put up a statue of Walter Johnson at Nationals Park. It looks pretty odd. Perhaps it looks better in person. I think the idea is good but it doesn't photograph well. Depending on the angle, it looks kind of scary! What do you guys think?

Here is an article from the Washington Times on April 18, 2009.

Hall of Famer Walter Johnson, arguably the best pitcher in baseball history, fanned 3,509 batters while winning 417 games with the Washington Senators from 1907 to 1927. Yet Johnson’s grandson and biographer, Henry Thomas, is more concerned these days with another strikeout.

He thinks the D.C. Commission on the Arts and Humanities and sculptor Omri Amrany whiffed completely with the Johnson statue that was unveiled last week in the center field plaza at Nationals Park. Or perhaps hit a foul ball.

Thomas’ one-word description of the towering, bronze sculpture, as posted on the Nats’ Web site: “hideous.”

His biggest objection is to what Amrany calls the “repetitive motion” aspect that features several right arms depicting the flight of a Johnson fastball. Viewed from some angles, the effect makes Johnson appear somewhat like a human octopus.

“It just doesn’t work,” Thomas said from his home in Arlington. “Those big pieces of matter coming out of Walter’s shoulder look like driftwood. But I don’t like any part of the statue. I really object to it. It’s ridiculous, not even close [to accurately portraying Johnson]. He looks awkward. His delivery point is all wrong. His legs are too stiff. The ‘W’ on his uniform is too big. And the inscription is on the back [of the base]. It doesn’t even face the plaza.”

Johnson’s statue stands alongside ones of fellow D.C. baseball legends Frank Howard and Josh Gibson that also reflect Amrany’s motion technique. At the unveiling, Howard and Gibson’s great-grandson, Sean Gibson, were appreciative of the honor. However, Thomas and his mother, Carolyn, skipped the ceremony to indicate their displeasure.

“I thought most people would be more accepting of the statue than I am,” Henry Thomas said, “but the reactions I’ve gotten are running almost 10-1 against it. There has been almost universal disapproval. Something is really wrong. The purpose is not to make art; it’s to show real people as they really were.”

Thomas said he signed away the rights to final approval because he was assured by former arts commission head Tony Gittens that he would be consulted during the project, which was awarded to Amrany’s suburban Chicago studio in 2007 after an open competition attracted dozens of applicants.

“I went out there last September to see the finished clay model, and I expressed to Omri in no uncertain terms that I was appalled,” Thomas said. “He said nothing at all, and other people at the studio were shocked that I found anything wrong. I felt like, ‘Am I crazy?’

“I don’t blame the artist. Omri was very polite and very patient with me. You can’t blame a crocodile if it eats somebody - that’s what crocodiles do. And artists do things the way they visualize them. I blame the arts commission for giving its OK to the statue.”

When a reporter relayed these comments to Amrany, the sculptor reacted as you might expect, taking a figurative chisel to Thomas’ arguments.

“When he came out here, he admired the [facial] likeness, and he liked the position,” Amrany said. “The repetitive arms were the only thing he disliked - that’s all he told us. Now he’s telling a different story. He should know better. He should know much, much better. [The statue] is not some frozen figure. This is not just about sports; it’s about art. He never learned that, or he forgot it.

“Everybody can criticize art because there are a lot of elements. But the fans always have the final judgments.”

Gloria Nauden, executive director of the arts commission, said she has no regrets over the selection of Amrany or the final products.

“I empathize with Mr. Thomas,” Nauden added. “But the important thing is that the statues are here. I’m a first-generation Washingtonian, and I never heard of these three players. Now fans will be able to come into the ballpark for 100 years and see them. I’m glad they were built [at a cost of $427,500 from the arts commission’s capital budget].”

Thomas, who was born a few months before Johnson’s death from a malignant brain tumor in 1946, sounds like he’s willing to rest his case with those fans.

“If I were just a fan myself, I’d probably look at Walter’s statue and say, ‘What were they thinking?’ and go get a hot dog,” he said. “I don’t expect everybody else to be as upset as I am. But the guy was my grandfather, for heaven’s sake, and this absolutely negates the whole thing.”

Thomas paused. “I will have a difficult time going to ballgames now and seeing the statue,” he said. “And it will be there as long as the ballpark is.”

Bill Burgess

06-25-2011, 08:29 PM

I'm probably wrong, but that guy in post #107 looks an awful lot like silent film star comedian, Charlie Chaplin.

SHOELESSJOE3

06-26-2011, 04:50 AM

I would bet on Charlie, certainly looks like him.

Bill Burgess

06-26-2011, 10:51 AM

EdTarbusz

06-26-2011, 02:44 PM

Another odd picture of Walter. I have no idea what's going on here...
Might be silent film star comedian, Charlie Chaplin.

This may be George Dern (Secretary of War in FDRs first term cabinet) with Johnson. He looks too old to be Charlie Chaplin.

Dick Groat's syndrome

06-26-2011, 04:50 PM

This may be George Dern (Secretary of War in FDRs first term cabinet) with Johnson. He looks too old to be Charlie Chaplin.

It doesn't look like Charlie Chaplin to me either. I think that would Chaplin would also be considerably smaller than Johnson whereas this man appears to only be a few inches shorter.

SHOELESSJOE3

06-26-2011, 08:29 PM

This may be George Dern (Secretary of War in FDRs first term cabinet) with Johnson. He looks too old to be Charlie Chaplin.

Your right Ed. Took a quick glance and saw a little resemblance to Chaplin. A second look, not him.

csh19792001

06-27-2011, 12:09 PM

Your right Ed. Took a quick glance and saw a little resemblance to Chaplin. A second look, not him.

That Big Train Statue is (blanking) hideous.

Honus Wagner Rules

06-27-2011, 12:12 PM

That Big Train Statue is (blanking) hideous.

It looks like a prop from the 1982 remake of The Thing!!! :laugh

http://www.otherlandtoys.co.uk/images/product_images/Collectibles/thing1.jpg

csh19792001

06-27-2011, 12:21 PM

It looks like a prop from the 1982 remake of The Thing!!! :laugh

http://www.otherlandtoys.co.uk/images/product_images/Collectibles/thing1.jpg

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Upon unveiling the partially frozen creature for the first time back at base camp)

Wilford Brimley: "What is that...a MAN in there!?"

Bill Burgess

06-27-2011, 03:02 PM

I think the statue, while a little peculiar in its conception, is pretty creative. The sculptor is undoubtedly trying to be innovative in showing his delivery in 3 different arm positions.

It must have taken a long time and a huge amount of effort. I give the sculptor high marks for his effort and vision. Wish someone would invest that much time and trouble in memorializing ME!

Bench 5

06-27-2011, 07:57 PM

Since it shows Walter giving the person a silver dollar, maybe it was on the occaion when Walter tried to throw a silver dollar across the Rapahannock River, as George Washington was supposed to have done.

They are dressed like that, with Charlie in Revolutionary War clothes and all.
[On February 22, 1936, Walter threw a silver dollar across the Rappahannock River. The river then measured 272 feet wide at that point of the toss, but Walter's toss was estimated to travel 317 feet. Someone claimed that when Washington supposedly did it, it measured 1,500 feet across.]

Do you think it could be Sol Bloom? The pic above looks similar to his pictures below.

http://www.nationalsdailynews.com/columnists/post.cfm?blog=mark&id=255&story=walter-johnson-pays-tribute-to-george-washington

February 22, 1936

Fredericksburg, Virginia

To celebrate George Washington's 204th birthday the town of Fredericksburg planned a daylong celebration. To cap off the day the city invited baseball legend Walter "The Big Train" Johnson to duplicate George Washington's legendary throw of a silver dollar across the Rappahannock River.

As the story goes U.S. Rep. Sol Bloom, D-N.Y. believed the coin throw was physically impossible. The Congressman felt so strongly the Big Train would fail in his attempt to duplicate Washington's throw he offered to bet anyone $20 to $1.

The Free Lance-Star was quick to take that bet, and asked the citizens of Fredericksburg to take the bet on the understanding all winnings would go towards the purchase of the Ferry Farm, Washington's boyhood home, so they could turn it into a museum. All together, the citizens and the paper raised $5,000 to wager against the Congressman from New York.

It was reported by the Associated Press that the Big Train had some doubts about the throw. Walter was concerned about the distance. He said that he can throw hard but he could not really throw for distance. He was also concerned because of all of the money being wagered.

It was agreed that Walter would get three attempts to match Washington's throw. With 4,000 spectators watching the Big Train failed to reach the other side with the silver dollar on his first throw. To the joy of the large crowd Walter was able to clear the river on his next two attempts. The third throw was measured at 286 feet, and was recorded as the official throw.

After it was all said and done Sol Bloom refused to pay the citizens $100,000 citing that the river was narrower than it was when George Washington made his throw, plus the silver dollar did not exist at the time of Washington's throw. It is said that George Washington actually threw a piece of slate the size of a large coin across the river when he lived at the Ferry farm. It may never be clear what George Washington threw across the river but it is clear that on February 22, 1936 Walter Johnson threw two silver dollars across the Rappahannock River.

Bill Burgess

06-27-2011, 08:37 PM

It that is a photo of Sol Bloom, case solved. He looks remarkably like Charlie Chaplin. But it MUST be Sol. Thanks, Bench 5 for solving the mystery for all of us, old amigo!