Igawa in 2007

[LGehrigFan]

I don't understand why it cost some Japanese players up to $55 million just to negotiate! I mean, that's a) more than a player's salary and b) if you don't come to a deal, you just wasted solid money that could've been used for other players. Maybe I'm just confused.

[Ichiro51]

if you don't come to a deal, you just wasted solid money that could've been used for other players. Maybe I'm just confused.

If you don't come to a deal, the player return to their team in Japan while the team who won the bid gets their money back.

[Ichiro51]

How many games do you think Kei Igawa is going to have next season for the Yankees?

[Ichiro51]

The last choice should be 17 or more.

I voted 11-12, Igawa is expect to be the #4-5 pitcher, I just don't see him dominate the entire AL in his first year. Nomo only won 13 his first year, although he did not start pitch until early May that year.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

I voted for 10 or less.

Like you said. He is projected as the 4 - 5 starter. And I have read that he can have some major problems with his control. So I don't aim too high.

[clipper]

I am an optimisic fan who always goes into Spring training thinking we will not lose one game if I managed, especially after watching the replay or reading the next day's newspaper. One, I will not say his name because it's bad luck. Two, I truly believe Igawa is much better than Nomo (no comparison, I hope). I watched Nomo's no hitter and that was one of those magical days and the batters had no patience. His control was not great. Is he still pitching out west? I think he'll get 12 (maybe 13), 8 before all star break and 4 after. Start off strong until the other teams find his weaknesses and pattern (I think all teams have a book on all pitchers). I have him as 5 pitcher behind Pravano.

Clipper

[Mariano_Rivera]

Hey Randy almost won 20 last year with an ERA above 5.00 13-15 is my guess with a great bullpen, hopefully solid defense and Murderers Row behind him.

[Evangelion]

Monster offense should get him at least 10 wins. I'm going to assume he'll rack in 13-14 wins, if he keeps the team in the game and pitches enough innings for the win unlike 5 inning wonder Wright.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I dunno I hope at least 13

[EvanAparra]

Two, I truly believe Igawa is much better than Nomo (no comparison, I hope).

Why? Nomo was a ROY, do you expect that same production out of Igawa his first year?

Also, if he's a 5 pitcher, how is he better than Nomo -- when he first came he was 1-2 type pitcher for the first 3 years. (i think, may have been 2)

[Ichiro51]

Igawa is not better than Nomo.

[DoubleX]

Why? Nomo was a ROY, do you expect that same production out of Igawa his first year?

Also, if he's a 5 pitcher, how is he better than Nomo -- when he first came he was 1-2 type pitcher for the first 3 years. (i think, may have been 2)

Nomo was something of a surprise when he came over here and was very good for his first two years then again a few years later for a couple of years when he returned to the Dodgers. His K rates were very impressive when he first came over, but his arm couldn't hold up and he lost a lot of velocity by the end, and other than the four years I mentioned, he was pretty much an average to below average pitcher for the other 7 years of his career.

I don't really know how to assess Japanese statistics nor predict how they translate over here, but just on the surface, Nomo and Igawa seem to have similar success in Japan before coming over here, though Nomo pitched a ton more innings. I wonder if that has something to do with a change in Japanese style in the past decade. Nomo was pitching 240+ innings in the early 90s, and now Matsuzaka and Igawa come over here with neither pitching anywhere close to 240 innings (though Matsuzaka did once, back in 2001, but has only topped 200 once since then).

[Dalkowski110]

Honestly, with all the stuff I heard BEFORE the guy came to the Yankees, I sorta thought he was the next coming of Hideki Irabu or Satoru Komiyama. He has a few problems, namely...
-His pitch repertoire. His fastball, as it translates here, will probably top out at around 90 mph. Then again, it is said he has a sneaky fastball, so it will probably be his key pitch. His changeup is so-so, and his slider has been described with a whole host of insults.
-His wildness, which should only get worse with an MLB baseball (remember, the ball size in Japan and the USA isn't identical).
-A poll conducted in Japan where 70% of Japanese fans said he'd either never make the Majors or didn't belong.

However, perhaps the worst singular thing about Igawa are the first and second criticisms combined. A wild pitcher with a plus fastball (in the 96 mph and above zone) will generally rack up a good amount of strikeouts, and thus increase his chances of getting out of an inning. Ditto to a guy with an odd specialty pitch, such as a knuckler (Steve Sparks) or true screwball (John Franco), because hitters rarely see anything like it. A few guys with very wide breaking curves can also get away with this (the only one currently playing is Mets prospect Adam Bostick). But Igawa only has two good pitches...a 90 mph fastball and a changeup. He's not a Ryne Duren or Eli Grba (to name two Yankees alumni), or a Sudden Sam McDowell where yes, you can afford to be wild as all get-out, but you're blowing it by the hitter. Only a handful of wild but slow pitchers with regular repertoires have succeeded. Unfortunately, the one most similar pitcher regarding repertoire, speed, and control (sneaky fastball, sinker, flat slider) who succeeded, that being Doug Sisk, was a relief pitcher who caused everyone to chew into their nailbeds watching the guy. That said, I could see Igawa succeeding as a reliever. I'd just toss the guy in the bullpen and give his rotation spot to Scott Proctor (who I do believe has the endurance to start).

[mikesty]

I voted <11, but I bet he'll improve steadily using MLB pitching techniques. He's playing in the bigs and that's a lot more difficult, surely, but I think he will learn a lot of stuff from teammates/coaching and improve his technique. He has some good stuff, if a guy like Jorge or Sal was able to settle him down and guide him around the plate, I think success is definitely plausible.

[Dalkowski110]

There is one thing, of course, that could get him to be an MLB quality pitcher...teach him a quality breaking pitch (his slider, acknowledged in even his NPB scouting reports as his worst pitch, should be either given up on or torn down and then built back up...it's uncontrollable AND as flat as a pancake) and teach him to control it. He's just about useless even if he controls his fastball and changeup, because he lacks a breaking pitch (and a specialty pitch). The only starter in MLB history with a 90-foot pitching mound never to throw either a blazing fastball, breaking pitch, or specialty pitch AND have success was a guy named Al Orth, who pitched in the Deadball Era and threw sidearm (and was a master of changing speeds). However, teaching Igawa a curveball and teaching him to control it isn't going to span ST. Normally, with even a seasoned pitcher, it takes 2 to 3 YEARS of practice. And this is even if he's able to command it.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Honestly, with all the stuff I heard BEFORE the guy came to the Yankees, I sorta thought he was the next coming of Hideki Irabu or Satoru Komiyama. He has a few problems, namely...
-His pitch repertoire. His fastball, as it translates here, will probably top out at around 90 mph. Then again, it is said he has a sneaky fastball, so it will probably be his key pitch. His changeup is so-so, and his slider has been described with a whole host of insults.
-His wildness, which should only get worse with an MLB baseball (remember, the ball size in Japan and the USA isn't identical).
-A poll conducted in Japan where 70% of Japanese fans said he'd either never make the Majors or didn't belong.

However, perhaps the worst singular thing about Igawa are the first and second criticisms combined. A wild pitcher with a plus fastball (in the 96 mph and above zone) will generally rack up a good amount of strikeouts, and thus increase his chances of getting out of an inning. Ditto to a guy with an odd specialty pitch, such as a knuckler (Steve Sparks) or true screwball (John Franco), because hitters rarely see anything like it. A few guys with very wide breaking curves can also get away with this (the only one currently playing is Mets prospect Adam Bostick). But Igawa only has two good pitches...a 90 mph fastball and a changeup. He's not a Ryne Duren or Eli Grba (to name two Yankees alumni), or a Sudden Sam McDowell where yes, you can afford to be wild as all get-out, but you're blowing it by the hitter. Only a handful of wild but slow pitchers with regular repertoires have succeeded. Unfortunately, the one most similar pitcher regarding repertoire, speed, and control (sneaky fastball, sinker, flat slider) who succeeded, that being Doug Sisk, was a relief pitcher who caused everyone to chew into their nailbeds watching the guy. That said, I could see Igawa succeeding as a reliever. I'd just toss the guy in the bullpen and give his rotation spot to Scott Proctor (who I do believe has the endurance to start).

You're forgetting about his best pitch, his curveball

[Dalkowski110]

Which he didn't throw in the NPB vs. MLB series. Why? Because they were using MLB regulation baseballs and he couldn't throw the darn thing/couldn't get it to curve well.

[mikesty]

Holy crap. I never knew Japanese balls were different than our American balls.

HOLY HIDEKI IRABU :(

[Dalkowski110]

An NPB regulation baseball is slightly smaller. Also a little springier (which is why NPB players have an easier time hitting the ball over here, but their power numbers go down). Igawa had such difficulty with his curveball (more accurately described as a slurve...it didn't have a ton of break to it) that he abandoned it altogether. He's coming over with a slow fastball, a changeup, and an uncontrollable flat slider. I doubt he could be much worse than Irabu, and you could probably trade him to some team desperate for rotation help.

[Disgruntaledmarinerfan]

Unless Igawa get a superflous amount of run support each time he pitches I'd say he might win 6-7, however being on the yankees who can easily post a incredible amount of run support, he might win ten.

[sandlot]

An NPB regulation baseball is slightly smaller. Also a little springier (which is why NPB players have an easier time hitting the ball over here, but their power numbers go down). Igawa had such difficulty with his curveball (more accurately described as a slurve...it didn't have a ton of break to it) that he abandoned it altogether. He's coming over with a slow fastball, a changeup, and an uncontrollable flat slider. I doubt he could be much worse than Irabu, and you could probably trade him to some team desperate for rotation help.Have you watched the videos? You can see left-handed batters bailing completely out of the box, but the ball breaks over for a strike. The slider is reportedly flat, but that curve -- even if he can't completely control it -- is real. What might help is that with the MLB ball and its higher seam, he could maybe get more bite and have it come in lower, dropping at or below the knees instead of from head/shoulder to waist as it does now. His biggest problem is likely to be more BB if batters wait on the curve and test his control. Of course when it does drop in, he'll pick up K's. But if he uses it, say, on 2-2 counts and misses, then has to come in with his so-so fastball or flat slider, he's in trouble. He's also emotional and may have a little problem with umps. I'm hoping Wang and Guidry can help him to get another, lower pitch. I think 12-14 wins is about right, anything more is terrific.

[Dalkowski110]

I have nothing against the Yankees...just Igawa. Before he was posted, I projected him at 6-8 with an ERA of about 5.00 with the Mets, before either being demoted to AAA or long relief. What makes you think Wang (a sinkerballer) is going to help him develop a pitch? Guidry's repertoire, as a player, also didn't include a curveball...he rejected it outright for a slider (thus adding the possibility of Guidry rebuilding Igawa's slider). If any player truly helps him, it would be Mike Mussina, who throws a good curveball and is a veteran player. Yes I've watched the videos, and no I'm not impressed.

"What might help is that with the MLB ball and its higher seam..."

Due to his complete and total inability to even THROW a curveball with an MLB baseball (far from your assessment that his curve would improve), it won't help at all.

[TonyStarks]

On Nomo...

Nomo did have great velocity on his stuff but I think one of the keys to Nomo was his delivery. It was very deceptive and I don't think MLB had seen something like that since maybe Luis Tiant. That herky jerky then stop motion was unlike anything most Major Leaguers had ever seen.


---

As for our boy here Igawa. I don't know about him. I get this feeling like the guy will win 9 to 11 games tops and he'll have an ERA in the 4s.

He won't be worth the trouble...the Media will get on him and then followed by the fans and he would be chased from the Bronx in the same fashion as Irabu was.
(I hope I'm wrong about this...but I just don't have a good feeling)

[clipper]

I have nothing against the Yankees...just Igawa. Before he was posted, I projected him at 6-8 with an ERA of about 5.00 with the Mets, before either being demoted to AAA or long relief. What makes you think Wang (a sinkerballer) is going to help him develop a pitch? Guidry's repertoire, as a player, also didn't include a curveball...he rejected it outright for a slider (thus adding the possibility of Guidry rebuilding Igawa's slider). If any player truly helps him, it would be Mike Mussina, who throws a good curveball and is a veteran player. Yes I've watched the videos, and no I'm not impressed.

"What might help is that with the MLB ball and its higher seam..."

Due to his complete and total inability to even THROW a curveball with an MLB baseball (far from your assessment that his curve would improve), it won't help at all.

OK, now I am really worried. Boy, I hope you are mistaken. The Mets (and other teams) wanted him, too. His stats are not bad in comparison to Matsuzaka. I just hope it works out. I have him in the 5 spot because I don't know how well he will be in MLB. He may ends up as a reliever - I hope not - but I don't know.

As for Nomo, I only remember him as BoSox and Tampa because I don't follow the National league especially the west coast Dodgers (I think that was the team). I am sure Nomo had some very nice years but remember some average years. I do hope Igawa will be better from what I remember. Tony, I do feel Nomo velocity is better because Igawa is around 90.

I heard Brian is meeting with the agent during the Winter meeting to try and finish this deal.

I am still happy we won the bid.

Clipper

[Dalkowski110]

"The Mets (and other teams) wanted him, too."

I am not exaggerating when I say that if the Mets had gotten him, I would have cringed and just hoped he blew out his arm or was demoted to the bullpen so that Phil Humber or Mike Pelfrey could come up out of the Minors to take his rotation spot.

[Disgruntaledmarinerfan]

I have a feeling that the yankees will regret the aquisition of Igawa when it's all said and done. Igawa will be mediocre at best. This a rather large step backward for the Yankees.

[ChrisLDuncan]

This move was all kinds of stupid...should have signed Zito instead, rather go with the Devil you know

[sandlot]

I have nothing against the Yankees...just Igawa. Before he was posted, I projected him at 6-8 with an ERA of about 5.00 with the Mets, before either being demoted to AAA or long relief. What makes you think Wang (a sinkerballer) is going to help him develop a pitch? Guidry's repertoire, as a player, also didn't include a curveball...he rejected it outright for a slider (thus adding the possibility of Guidry rebuilding Igawa's slider). If any player truly helps him, it would be Mike Mussina, who throws a good curveball and is a veteran player. Yes I've watched the videos, and no I'm not impressed.

"What might help is that with the MLB ball and its higher seam..."

Due to his complete and total inability to even THROW a curveball with an MLB baseball (far from your assessment that his curve would improve), it won't help at all.OK, we just have to agree to disagree on the videos. When I see a batter completely bailing out of the box because he thinks he's about to get hit, but the ball breaks in for a strike, I see a very good pitch, and a curve at that. Different point of view. But even setting aside the visuals, I don't see on what basis anyone can say that he has "complete and utter inability even to THROW a curveball." If in one circumstance he didn't throw one, it might have been for a variety of reasons including lack of familiarity with a new ball. But not doing something is entirely different from not being able to do it. On what evidence do you conclude that he has some physical limitation preventing him throwing a curveball?

Why wouldn't Wang help him? They'd both like to get a ring and they'll be on the same team. And because Guidry didn't throw a curve one doesn't mean he can't help someone else learn how to improve a curveball. He might, as you say, get Igawa working on a slider that's not flat. But that pitch has to be down in the zone to work as well, and I agree that throwing low is maybe Igawa's weakest point.

Maybe you were just exaggerating for dramatic effect, but I do hope that you were not being serious in wishing that Igawa blow out his arm had he gone to the Mets.

[wigglestrue]

Did anyone ever respond to the whole lefty thing I posted in the other Igawa thread? That in Japan there are slightly more left-handed batters than right-handed? Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I think he could be an excellent LOOGY.
But if he's starting he's going to face 80/20 righties.
As opposed to 55/45 lefties or whatever it was in Japan.
If that was the case...I can't find his L/R splits in the NPB.

[Mariano_Rivera]

On Nomo...

Nomo did have great velocity on his stuff but I think one of the keys to Nomo was his delivery. It was very deceptive and I don't think MLB had seen something like that since maybe Luis Tiant. That herky jerky then stop motion was unlike anything most Major Leaguers had ever seen.


---

As for our boy here Igawa. I don't know about him. I get this feeling like the guy will win 9 to 11 games tops and he'll have an ERA in the 4s.

He won't be worth the trouble...the Media will get on him and then followed by the fans and he would be chased from the Bronx in the same fashion as Irabu was.
(I hope I'm wrong about this...but I just don't have a good feeling)

If his ERA is in the 4's it's worth it and he will win a lot more than that.

[Dalkowski110]

"OK, we just have to agree to disagree on the videos. When I see a batter completely bailing out of the box because he thinks he's about to get hit, but the ball breaks in for a strike, I see a very good pitch, and a curve at that. Different point of view. But even setting aside the visuals, I don't see on what basis anyone can say that he has 'complete and utter inability even to THROW a curveball.' If in one circumstance he didn't throw one, it might have been for a variety of reasons including lack of familiarity with a new ball. But not doing something is entirely different from not being able to do it. On what evidence do you conclude that he has some physical limitation preventing him throwing a curveball?"

The NPB vs. MLB series, in which he could not throw a curveball due to the different size of the MLB baseball. During his warmups, he either couldn't get it to curve or it was getting away from him so badly that it was useless. The slider was much easier for him, so he just out and dumped the curve.

"Why wouldn't Wang help him? They'd both like to get a ring and they'll be on the same team. And because Guidry didn't throw a curve one doesn't mean he can't help someone else learn how to improve a curveball. He might, as you say, get Igawa working on a slider that's not flat. But that pitch has to be down in the zone to work as well, and I agree that throwing low is maybe Igawa's weakest point."

Because Igawa has never thrown a sinkerball. Generally, if you want to salvage a pitcher, you have to work with what he already has. If anything, Guidry would want to work on his slider and curve (if it's even salvagable). Indeed, Igawa has a great deal of trouble throwing his slider low in the zone. The most similar pitcher I've seen regarding that slider is Heath Bell.

"Maybe you were just exaggerating for dramatic effect, but I do hope that you were not being serious in wishing that Igawa blow out his arm had he gone to the Mets."

I was completely serious, although a total meltdown in Spring Training would have been preferable.

[Waitinfor27]

If he works hard enough, he can adjust to the MLB ball. It's not he completely forgot how to throw a curve, he just wasn't used to the ball; how long did he have to prepare, a week? Two?

[clipper]

"OK, we just have to agree to disagree on the videos. When I see a batter completely bailing out of the box because he thinks he's about to get hit, but the ball breaks in for a strike, I see a very good pitch, and a curve at that. Different point of view. But even setting aside the visuals, I don't see on what basis anyone can say that he has 'complete and utter inability even to THROW a curveball.' If in one circumstance he didn't throw one, it might have been for a variety of reasons including lack of familiarity with a new ball. But not doing something is entirely different from not being able to do it. On what evidence do you conclude that he has some physical limitation preventing him throwing a curveball?"

The NPB vs. MLB series, in which he could not throw a curveball due to the different size of the MLB baseball. During his warmups, he either couldn't get it to curve or it was getting away from him so badly that it was useless. The slider was much easier for him, so he just out and dumped the curve.

"Why wouldn't Wang help him? They'd both like to get a ring and they'll be on the same team. And because Guidry didn't throw a curve one doesn't mean he can't help someone else learn how to improve a curveball. He might, as you say, get Igawa working on a slider that's not flat. But that pitch has to be down in the zone to work as well, and I agree that throwing low is maybe Igawa's weakest point."

Because Igawa has never thrown a sinkerball. Generally, if you want to salvage a pitcher, you have to work with what he already has. If anything, Guidry would want to work on his slider and curve (if it's even salvagable). Indeed, Igawa has a great deal of trouble throwing his slider low in the zone. The most similar pitcher I've seen regarding that slider is Heath Bell.

"Maybe you were just exaggerating for dramatic effect, but I do hope that you were not being serious in wishing that Igawa blow out his arm had he gone to the Mets."

I was completely serious, although a total meltdown in Spring Training would have been preferable.

Dear Dalkowski,
OK. We got your opinion on Igawa. Please, No More. I know this is not for this post but I want to ask anayway. What do you think of Matsazaka? The Mets bid was 39M!!! Is he that much better than Igawa? I know about the fastball and gyroball but I am interested in what you think.

Now I feel there is a chance the BoSox may not to sign him. The money for the top starters is unreal this year. (Boy, was the Santana a great deal) Boras is definitely in >14M range and I heard BoSox is stuck at 10-12M. Matsazaka is coming to Boston this weekend so we'll see (I don't believe it's a Nike shot). One rumor is that if he does not going to sign, buy out his contract for 30M, and become a FA for any team (Yankees). Since we have time with Igawa (12/28), maybe we should wait and see.

Clipper

[clipper]

FYI: I just got my Sporting News yesterday and isome scouts compare Igawa to David Wells (Baseball Insider, Mike Berardino), which I feel is good news. I agree with Ricky (around 12M for 3 yrs) and Sandlot with their higher expectations. I like the move. We will find out this Spring.

Clipper

[wigglestrue]

I'm serious about the lefty thing.

http://www.npb.or.jp/

[Mariano_Rivera]

I'm serious about the lefty thing.

http://www.npb.or.jp/

Igawa isn`t expected to be more than a #4 starter for the Yankees and #5 or in the bullpen if they sign Clemens

[wigglestrue]

If he's starting, he'll face 80/20 righties, instead of 55/45 lefties.
That doesn't concern Yankees fans?

But like I said above, I think he could be an excellent LOOGY.

[Mariano_Rivera]

If he's starting, he'll face 80/20 righties, instead of 55/45 lefties.
That doesn't concern Yankees fans?

But like I said above, I think he could be an excellent LOOGY.

You don`t pay 26 million to negotiate with a LOOGY. We have to try him out starting if it doesn`t work he can move to the bullpen and one of the farm guys can take over. or maybe we can sign Clemens.

[Evangelion]

You don`t pay 26 million to negotiate with a LOOGY. We have to try him out starting if it doesn`t work he can move to the bullpen and one of the farm guys can take over. or maybe we can sign Clemens.
Since Clemens will likely still be a free agent then. Igawa will likely be signed and he'll likely start the season in the fifth hole. If there's going to be a odd man out of the rotation for Clemens, it would be Pavano.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Since Clemens will likely still be a free agent then. Igawa will likely be signed and he'll likely start the season in the fifth hole. If there's going to be a odd man out of the rotation for Clemens, it would be Pavano.

Even without Clemens Pavano is the odd man out.

Wang
Pettitte
Mussina
Igawa
Clemens

Johnson?

Pavano?

See?

[sandlot]

What I love about all of this is that NY ends up, with or without Clemens, with one of the stronger rotations in the game and none of it has involved either a trade or a ridiculously priced star with a long-term contract. Having a #6 starter is a nice position to be in, because for sure someone will be down for awhile with an injury or whatever, and if they get Clemens he'll only arrive in June. Torre will have unbelieveable options. And besides, there's no guarantee that Wang, much as I lovehim, will have another 19-win season. I'm writing this from Taipei, where's Wang's face is on buses everywhere and Yankee jackets are all the rage. Better believe these guys, like Wang and Matsui, move merchandise overseas. And the Taiwan team just got the gold medal at the Asian games beating Japan. Think any of these guys would ever want to sign with NY?

[Evangelion]

One of the stronger rotation? I wait before I state that when you consider the age and history of 2, 3 and 4 pitcher of that rotation. Mussina might not come back and be as dominating as he was at the start of last season. You have no idea how well Pettitte will fair coming back to AL. You have no clue with Johnson. You're depending on many older pitchers and you never know when they'll break down.

The Yankees have depth in their rotation, but a strong rotation? I won't go that far.

[Dalkowski110]

"What do you think of Matsazaka? The Mets bid was 39M!!! Is he that much better than Igawa? I know about the fastball and gyroball but I am interested in what you think."

To respond to that, he'll have to scrap his fastball or turn it into a change to be a strikeout pitcher. It won't translate. NO Japanese pitcher, even Hideo Nomo, could translate their fastball into an MLB quality fastball. However, if Matsuzaka is converted into a junkballer, he'll be lights out. Unlike Igawa, Matsuzaka can throw seven pitches we know of, and can easily learn more. We'll do it by pitch...
-Fastball: Scrap it or turn it into a changeup variation.
-Reverse Shuuto (NOT a Gyroball): Easily his best pitch. This CAN be a strikeout pitch for at least his first three years.
-Slider: Devastating pitch with incredible command. Also capable of being a strikeout pitch.
-Changeup: So-so. I wouldn't count on it getting any better...just replace it with his current fastball.
-Forkball: Rarely thrown, and he can't control the pitch very well. Scrap it.
-Shuuto: He throws a terrific shuuto, or shootball. Similar to, but not exactly a reverse slider. Will translate as a strikeout pitch.
-Reverse Slider: Thrown extremely well. Will also translate.

Pitches easily learned:
-Screwball: He already throws three pitches that are extremely close to the screwball. He could probably learn an American screwball with ease.
-Curve: He throws one in Japan, but doesn't like it. It's more of a ground-out pitch. I say he should use it.

[clipper]

"What do you think of Matsazaka? The Mets bid was 39M!!! Is he that much better than Igawa? I know about the fastball and gyroball but I am interested in what you think."

To respond to that, he'll have to scrap his fastball or turn it into a change to be a strikeout pitcher. It won't translate. NO Japanese pitcher, even Hideo Nomo, could translate their fastball into an MLB quality fastball. However, if Matsuzaka is converted into a junkballer, he'll be lights out. Unlike Igawa, Matsuzaka can throw seven pitches we know of, and can easily learn more. We'll do it by pitch...
-Fastball: Scrap it or turn it into a changeup variation.
-Reverse Shuuto (NOT a Gyroball): Easily his best pitch. This CAN be a strikeout pitch for at least his first three years.
-Slider: Devastating pitch with incredible command. Also capable of being a strikeout pitch.
-Changeup: So-so. I wouldn't count on it getting any better...just replace it with his current fastball.
-Forkball: Rarely thrown, and he can't control the pitch very well. Scrap it.
-Shuuto: He throws a terrific shuuto, or shootball. Similar to, but not exactly a reverse slider. Will translate as a strikeout pitch.
-Reverse Slider: Thrown extremely well. Will also translate.

Pitches easily learned:
-Screwball: He already throws three pitches that are extremely close to the screwball. He could probably learn an American screwball with ease.
-Curve: He throws one in Japan, but doesn't like it. It's more of a ground-out pitch. I say he should use it.

I wished I didn't asked. (I heard he has a 95 fast ball. Please don't repond. I get the picture)

(???Thanks???)

Clipper

[Mariano_Rivera]

One of the stronger rotation? I wait before I state that when you consider the age and history of 2, 3 and 4 pitcher of that rotation. Mussina might not come back and be as dominating as he was at the start of last season. You have no idea how well Pettitte will fair coming back to AL. You have no clue with Johnson. You're depending on many older pitchers and you never know when they'll break down.

The Yankees have depth in their rotation, but a strong rotation? I won't go that far.

We all know that Wang, Mussina and Pettitte will all probably have ERA's about 4.00 might be better might be worse. Igawa and Johnson are unklnown's if they siign Clemens he can also probably be copunted on for an ERA around 4.00. That looks very good to me

[Evangelion]

I'm not disagree with the fact it's a good rotation, but the age of 2, 3 and 4 and history they have lately, won't make it strong rotation. They have the depth currently though to replace Pettitte, Mussina and Johnson if they went down. It's a good rotation to have with the depth to head into the season.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Igawa isn`t expected to be more than a #4 starter for the Yankees and #5 or in the bullpen if they sign Clemens

That would me ideal situation

[ChrisLDuncan]

Igawa isn`t expected to be more than a #4 starter for the Yankees and #5 or in the bullpen if they sign Clemens

That would me ideal situation

[cmaff05]

I'm not disagree with the fact it's a good rotation, but the age of 2, 3 and 4 and history they have lately, won't make it strong rotation. They have the depth currently though to replace Pettitte, Mussina and Johnson if they went down. It's a good rotation to have with the depth to head into the season.

What rotation doesn't have injury concerns?

[sandlot]

Let's remember that we're guessing at potential here. How many teams in either league have this many pitchers top to bottom with the potential of this staff? And I'm not including Clemens yet. Yes, any one of them could have injury or decline. Even two could have difficulties. But any four of these guy could win 15 games apiece or more. A crummy year for Johnson would be 14, but we don't know what effect the surgery will have. I doubt that he's going to get worse after it. Pavano is a huge question mark, but his possible upside is big. Who knows? I don't see another 19 for Wang, though I'd love to be wrong, but I'd be happy with 15. Ditto for Moose and Pettite (barring injury). I'm figuring Igawa for 12-13. The relievers are decent (Rivera's in his own class) but I don't think up to the level of the starters. I'd like Villone back and not have him over-used. If Clemens is on board, I think the rotation is lights out by just about any standard, age notwithstanding. At least two of them (Johnson, Clemens if he returns) would for sure be going to the HOF. Just my two cents.

[tripledup22]

i have a question. did the yankees even sign igawa yet and whens the deadline?

[Mariano_Rivera]

i have a question. did the yankees even sign igawa yet and whens the deadline?

The deadline for Igawa is still a ways away. I believe they have only started negotiating very recently. It will be easy to sign him I think he won`t be a FA for 3 years.

[Evangelion]

What rotation doesn't have injury concerns?
You missed the point.

What rotation got 43 year old declining left hander? A 38 year old pitcher with injury issues the past couple of seasons and had a great start last season until a injury that everyone tagging him as dependable, even though he reverted back to typical Mussina who post a high era and give you 6-7 innings? A 35 year old with shoulder concern, not to mention thinking retirement before signing.

Like I said, it's good, but it's not a strong rotation when you consider three of the five are old men with injury issues lately. All rotations have those to worry about injuries, but not all rotations have aged pitchers.

Like I said, a good rotation with a lot of depth, but not strong due to age of three of the five pitchers in the rotation and recent injury history for all three.

[EvanAparra]

I wished I didn't asked. (I heard he has a 95 fast ball. Please don't repond. I get the picture)

(???Thanks???)

Clipper

Why? Because Dalkowski is giving you info that you don't necessarily like?

[cmaff05]

You missed the point.

What rotation got 43 year old declining left hander? A 38 year old pitcher with injury issues the past couple of seasons and had a great start last season until a injury that everyone tagging him as dependable, even though he reverted back to typical Mussina who post a high era and give you 6-7 innings? A 35 year old with shoulder concern, not to mention thinking retirement before signing.

Like I said, it's good, but it's not a strong rotation when you consider three of the five are old men with injury issues lately. All rotations have those to worry about injuries, but not all rotations have aged pitchers.

Like I said, a good rotation with a lot of depth, but not strong due to age of three of the five pitchers in the rotation and recent injury history for all three.

What the heck are you talking about? Typical Mussina? Mussina has been one of the best pitchers of this generation. I know he's had some injury problems over the last few years, but he posted a 3.51 ERA in 2006. Surely you can't complain about that.

Again, give me a playoff contender in 2007 and I'll tell you that they all have injury concerns. That's just the nature of pitching. Boston and the Mets both have older pitchers who have injury concerns.

[Waitinfor27]

The deadline for Igawa is still a ways away. I believe they have only started negotiating very recently. It will be easy to sign him I think he won`t be a FA for 3 years.

The dealine is Dec. 28, so we still have a good deal of time. I think Igawa will be decent, he won't get lit up, and he can always work with the older, omre experienced breaking ballers (Randy, as flat as can be, he still knows how to throw one, Mussina, Guidry).

[Evangelion]

What the heck are you talking about? Typical Mussina? Mussina has been one of the best pitchers of this generation. I know he's had some injury problems over the last few years, but he posted a 3.51 ERA in 2006. Surely you can't complain about that.

Again, give me a playoff contender in 2007 and I'll tell you that they all have injury concerns. That's just the nature of pitching. Boston and the Mets both have older pitchers who have injury concerns.
Did you just forget what happen to him after he came back from injury this season? He wasn't as dominating as he was at the start of the season, he reverted back to his 04 and 05 form. Did you forget that 4.41 and 4.59 he posted those seasons? Mussina been good, but he's not the same league as Pedro and Clemens, the best pitchers of this generation.

Like I said, you missed the point, all rotation have injury issues, but don't have the age issues that Yankee rotation dealing with.

Boston got Beckett and Papelbon in their rotation. In the future, Matsuzaka might be there as well. Jon Lester plans to return by ST. Schilling and Wakefield in our rotation with age and injury issues. Difference would be they're not depending on as many old pitchers as New York would be.

Indians, Tigers, White Sox, Twins, Angels and A's don't depend on 3 age pitchers like New York doing. Again, I'm talking about old pitchers who break down at any point like Johnson did by coming to AL. Not every pitcher who are age will remain good like Clemens.

[clipper]

Why? Because Dalkowski is giving you info that you don't necessarily like?

Hi EvanAparra,

Yes. He appears very knowledable and his opinion of Igawa is terrible at best. I can only go by the stats on the Japanese board with Matzusaka and Igawa and some of the scouting reports. Wasn't that Matzusaka who pitch and shut down the 'Venesulan team in the world classics? He got the MVP world classics 3-0. (I got worried because he referenced Nomo which I agreed with him). I wanted his opinion on Matzusaka to see if he had similar opinion (terrible). If he did I would of wrote him off as a unhappy Met fan. Unfortunately, he gave Matzusaka a good report that I agree with, but did not want to see (if that makes sense). I do feel Matzusaka is the best pitcher this year and the BoSox is going to sign him around 15M. I know there are reports Boras want 20M and BoSox is at 12M. Peter Gammons feels they will run out of time because he must have a physical (1 day) to sign. One time I do know is he's making 3M and even 12M is a nice raise.

I feel we need Igawa to be dependable and will improve with experience in MLB. 12-13 and get better to 3 spot in 2 years. He's a left and Andy and Randy will be gone.

Schilling and Beckett already shut us down during two world series. Schilling is all guts and this is his last year. I do feel Beckett will be more comfortable in Boston and will have a better year. Paplebon is lights out but we don't know if he can go 6-7 innings. And Matzusaka may be the best of them all. We won East last year because of 5-0 series. Matzusaka can pitch 2 of those games if that happens again.

So, yes. I did not want to read his post and hope he doesn't post anymore bad news for me. I'm still concern with our rotation. By the way, I feel Hughes (and Sanchez) will be called up with the expected injuries (other Evans post about age). I like happy posts like signing Andy.

My 2 cents,
Clipper

[Dalkowski110]

"his opinion of Igawa is terrible at best."

"I did not want to read his post and hope he doesn't post anymore bad news for me."

Ah, if there's one thing I love about these boards, it's the freedom of speech and the openness with which we can speak out. Nobody bashes anybody. And of course, we all listen to each other's opinions... :rolleyes:

It would be truly wonderful if I could post links to The Baseball Cube, Japan Baseball Daily, and other resources to prove my point. And we could settle this statistically. For example, Igawa's past two years being the two worst of his career (with 2004 and 2003 being excellent). Nah, I'd be going too far. Because a certain person doesn't want to want to hear it and thus deprives all the other fans of another baseball afficianado's opinion (inadvertently, I'm sure), I'll stay mum.

I would also like to hear more of this well-founded rhetoric on why my opinion is terrible. Please enlighten me.

[EvanAparra]

So, yes. I did not want to read his post and hope he doesn't post anymore bad news for me. I'm still concern with our rotation. By the way, I feel Hughes (and Sanchez) will be called up with the expected injuries (other Evans post about age). I like happy posts like signing Andy.

My 2 cents,
Clipper

Pure honesty. I love it.

Evan

[sandlot]

A lot of talk about Zito everywhere, but having just looked at his stats (for the first time, to be honest) I'm wondering whether he's all that some people suggest. Yes, he eats up innings and is really a workhorse -- 200+ innings for most of his 6-year career -- and, yes, he has an excellent W-L record (largely as a result of two great seasons), but except for those two seasons, he's essentially been a slighly more than .500 pitcher. I realize that it might seem unfair to disregard seasons in which he won 17 and 23 games, respectively, but those were his second and third seasons. In his fourth, fifth and sixth seasons he hasn't done anything remotely like it. Which guy is he? The lights-out Zito of four seasons back, or the .500 one? Based on the last three seasons, the odds suggest the latter. Would I like Zito's durability? Sure, especially in a leftie. But will a guy who's already thrown a lot of innings start showing wear and tear, or is this kind of workload his nature? Mussina had 197 last year, and has 3,210 for his career, but that's what makes guys like him special. Pavano threw 200+ plus for two seasons then went down with injury in the next, etc. You never know. I'm not suggesting that Zito isn't good or worth having, but is he worth the kind of dough being talked about? Is Igawa going to give NY a lot less, or about the same?

[Mariano_Rivera]

A lot of talk about Zito everywhere, but having just looked at his stats (for the first time, to be honest) I'm wondering whether he's all that some people suggest. Yes, he eats up innings and is really a workhorse -- 200+ innings for most of his 6-year career -- and, yes, he has an excellent W-L record (largely as a result of two great seasons), but except for those two seasons, he's essentially been a slighly more than .500 pitcher. I realize that it might seem unfair to disregard seasons in which he won 17 and 23 games, respectively, but those were his second and third seasons. In his fourth, fifth and sixth seasons he hasn't done anything remotely like it. Which guy is he? The lights-out Zito of four seasons back, or the .500 one? Based on the last three seasons, the odds suggest the latter. Would I like Zito's durability? Sure, especially in a leftie. But will a guy who's already thrown a lot of innings start showing wear and tear, or is this kind of workload his nature? Mussina had 197 last year, and has 3,210 for his career, but that's what makes guys like him special. Pavano threw 200+ plus for two seasons then went down with injury in the next, etc. You never know. I'm not suggesting that Zito isn't good or worth having, but is he worth the kind of dough being talked about? Is Igawa going to give NY a lot less, or about the same?
Igawa could get about 4 years 16 million total plus 26 million for the posting price and we have 42 million as opposed to Zito who will be 90-100 million IMO

[Dalkowski110]

"Pure honesty. I love it."

Can't say I disagree Evan. However, while telling someone you don't want to hear it is one thing, expecting them to comply/not be annoyed/look at their pitifully flawed reasoning (Hey, I've been a Mets fan for over 18 years pal! You think I ignored the Kazmir for Zambrano trade because I "didn't like it"?) is a whole 'nother thing. As opposed to honesty, it comes across as trying to actually get the person off of the forum.

For Igawa's 2006 stats, scroll down to "Hanshin Tigers" and then go to pitching stats.

http://www.japanbaseballdaily.com/centralteam2006.html

And here's the rest of his career...

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/i/kei-igawa.shtml

Igawa's WHIP did go down significantly from its horrendous 2005 level. In 209 innings, he allowed 180 hits. Not bad. But one thing that he hasn't recovered from 2004, something which I believe he needs in order to succeed, is his K/9 rate. He was also hit pretty hard by left-handed batters, allowing a .295 BAA. He also faced 844 batters in just 209 innings...that's not exactly spectacular. He did manage to control his walks, but it unfortunately looks like when he did so, he began getting hit harder (this is actually somewhat typical of any pitcher trying to get their pitches under control...K/9 rate and BB/9 rate decrease, but H/9 rate increases). His ERA also needs a bit of polishing. It was 2.97, which might sound unbelievable here. It's not in Japan. Five qualifying hurlers in the Central League had better ERA's than Igawa (btw, it's too bad Hiroki Kuroda wasn't posted...considering his large pitch arsenal/low ERA/high strikeout rate, he would almost certainly have succeeded here). Statistically, he actually looks pretty similar to Kaz Ishii (scroll down to "Yakult Swallows" on the Japan Baseball Daily page), although he gives up fewer gopher balls. We all know how Ishii wound up over here...

[cmaff05]

Igawa plays on one of the worst teams in the Japanese Central league. He doesn't get much run support either.

[cmaff05]

Did you just forget what happen to him after he came back from injury this season? He wasn't as dominating as he was at the start of the season, he reverted back to his 04 and 05 form. Did you forget that 4.41 and 4.59 he posted those seasons? Mussina been good, but he's not the same league as Pedro and Clemens, the best pitchers of this generation.

Like I said, you missed the point, all rotation have injury issues, but don't have the age issues that Yankee rotation dealing with.

Boston got Beckett and Papelbon in their rotation. In the future, Matsuzaka might be there as well. Jon Lester plans to return by ST. Schilling and Wakefield in our rotation with age and injury issues. Difference would be they're not depending on as many old pitchers as New York would be.

Indians, Tigers, White Sox, Twins, Angels and A's don't depend on 3 age pitchers like New York doing. Again, I'm talking about old pitchers who break down at any point like Johnson did by coming to AL. Not every pitcher who are age will remain good like Clemens.

The bottom line is that Moose had a 3.51 ERA last year. You want to factor in 2004 and 2005, that's fine. But they don't play games in just one part of the year. You can't say "Moose had a 4 ERA in the second half, that's what kind of pitcher he is!!!!". Because they play 1st halfs and they count just as much. And everybody knew Moose wasn't going to keep up a 2.75 ERA. He hasn't had an ERA that low since his sophomore year.

So it's beyond absurd to say that he reverted back to "form", whatever that means.

BTW, are you a Yankee fan?

[wigglestrue]

Wow, .295 vs. LHB, .205 vs. RHB???? That bodes well, actually.
Reverses my point about lefties earlier.

[Dalkowski110]

Like I said earlier, Igawa is a finesse pitcher, not a power arm. He nibbles the corners. It's actually not surprising at all that lefties hit him so hard. As for the team being one of the worst...so what if they don't hit well? All they need to do, in theory, is field well. Just look at Craig Swan's 1979 season for evidence of this.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Like I said earlier, Igawa is a finesse pitcher, not a power arm. He nibbles the corners. It's actually not surprising at all that lefties hit him so hard. As for the team being one of the worst...so what if they don't hit well? All they need to do, in theory, is field well. Just look at Craig Swan's 1979 season for evidence of this.

Sounds like Mike Mussina

[Dalkowski110]

Actually, the comparison to Swan shouldn't be taken as positive...he ranks among the worst pitchers ever to be considered an ace for multiple years in the modern era. Comparing this dude to Mike Mussina is an insult to Mike Mussina...heck, comparing him to Swan is probably kind considering the dilution of the talent pool since he pitched. The point I was trying to make was that you don't have to be a very good pitcher, still have a poor team behind you, and still win 14 games almost purely by chance (which Swan managed to accomplish one year...although bear in mind he also lost 13 games, meaning he was kept in more and was basically the staff ace).

[Evangelion]

The bottom line is that Moose had a 3.51 ERA last year. You want to factor in 2004 and 2005, that's fine. But they don't play games in just one part of the year. You can't say "Moose had a 4 ERA in the second half, that's what kind of pitcher he is!!!!". Because they play 1st halfs and they count just as much. And everybody knew Moose wasn't going to keep up a 2.75 ERA. He hasn't had an ERA that low since his sophomore year.

So it's beyond absurd to say that he reverted back to "form", whatever that means.

BTW, are you a Yankee fan?
Bottom line would be he's good to average at best. 2006 isn't the only season that matter. You can't in turn around and say Mussina had a great first half, that's what kind of pitcher he is. Mussina been a pitcher that post a era of 4 plus, to even assume he'll be that dominating like last first half of the season would be silly. He's old and he's getting injuried more often.

It's not beyond absurd unless you want to completely ignore the 04, 05 and 06 after he came back from injury. When fully healthy, he can be quite good, but he's old and rarely at full health.

Face that the fact that Mussina old and often injuried. His injuries aren't serious to be placed on the DL, but it's obvious it affects his performance.

[clipper]

Igawa could get about 4 years 16 million total plus 26 million for the posting price and we have 42 million as opposed to Zito who will be 90-100 million IMO

Ricky, didn't you have 3 yrs 12M for Igawa? The short term contract is best even 2 years. Igawa is very confidendent in his ability. It would be best for both (Yankees and Igawa) to sign a short term contract. A short term because we have good prospects in our system and he may not work out. Igawa will get a big raise if he does work out. I want a 2 or 3 year contract at 4M/yr.

I agree Zito is not an option for us. I feel our rotation is complete until Spring to round out the 5 spot. (I heard Mets Texas will get Zito but you don't know about BoSox and Matzusaka. If they don't get Matzusaka (which I think they will) BoSox will take the 51M and go after Zito, another 10 thousand brain cells just died) but looking at your 46M for Igawa an 90M for Zito. I don't know.

Clipper

[cmaff05]

Bottom line would be he's good to average at best. 2006 isn't the only season that matter. You can't in turn around and say Mussina had a great first half, that's what kind of pitcher he is. Mussina been a pitcher that post a era of 4 plus, to even assume he'll be that dominating like last first half of the season would be silly. He's old and he's getting injuried more often.

It's not beyond absurd unless you want to completely ignore the 04, 05 and 06 after he came back from injury. When fully healthy, he can be quite good, but he's old and rarely at full health.

Face that the fact that Mussina old and often injuried. His injuries aren't serious to be placed on the DL, but it's obvious it affects his performance.

If a 3.51 ERA is average at best, I'll take average any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Are you a Red Sox fan or a Yankee fan?

[sandlot]

The NPB vs. MLB series, in which he could not throw a curveball due to the different size of the MLB baseball. During his warmups, he either couldn't get it to curve or it was getting away from him so badly that it was useless. The slider was much easier for him, so he just out and dumped the curve.

As your wrote, it was either that it wouldn't break or that he could not control it. Dumping the curve because of the ball difference is one thing, especially if the issue was control, but inability is something entirely different. He definitely possess a breaking ball but whether he can translate that into a controllable curve with the MLB ball is something we'll have to see.


Because Igawa has never thrown a sinkerball. Generally, if you want to salvage a pitcher, you have to work with what he already has. If anything, Guidry would want to work on his slider and curve (if it's even salvagable). Indeed, Igawa has a great deal of trouble throwing his slider low in the zone. The most similar pitcher I've seen regarding that slider is Heath Bell.

Can't comment on Bell, haven't seen him. I agree that you cannot turn Igawa or anyone else into what he's not. But Guidry, et al., can work on that slider, which needs improvement, and they can try to get him throwing lower in the zone, at least on occasion. He probably won't develop a sinkerball, but he can try to develop a pitch that comes in lower and breaks down. Otherwise he will have a hard time trying to live high in the zone and painting the edges without a strikeout pitch.

[Dalkowski110]

"He definitely possess a breaking ball but whether he can translate that into a controllable curve with the MLB ball is something we'll have to see."

True, but remember that the slider and the curve are inherently different pitches. You thrown either one? Not as similar as many people think. The slider is thrown much closer to a fastball; it's completely logical he'd be able to throw a slider if he could throw a fastball. The curve is a little different. You bend one of your fingers rather severely versus just throwing it offcenter and reaching out with one of your fingers. A good compromise for Igawa would be the slurve, which is inbetween the slider and curve (you throw it closer to a slider). I actually hadn't thought of this. In fact, I wouldn't be completely surprised if he dumps the curve for the slurve. All he needs is movement for it.

"Can't comment on Bell, haven't seen him."

Slider's flat as a pancake. Thank God the Mets rid themselves of him.

Guidry probably could add movement to his slider, much as Rick Peterson added movement to Matt Lindstrom's. But Lindstrom had the opposite problem I expect Igawa to have...if he went up in the zone, he still got bombed (causing him to drop the slider altogether). Movement does not equal pitch placement. Really, looking at it now, I think his best chance is to develop a slurve as his out pitch.

[Evangelion]

cmaff05, even though the discussion likely over, we could start a Mussina topic. I went off topic discussing Mussina in a Igawa topic. :laugh

That other question was answer before. All you need to know I'll discuss baseball in general. ;)

Anyway, getting back on topic, with the report of Matsuzaka 6 year 52 million dollar contract. What do you assume Igawa will receive from New York. I didn't expect Igawa to be signed before Matsuzaka, because he posted later and that Igawa and/or his agent were waiting for Matsuzaka's deal to be done and see where they stay in contract discussion with New York. We'll have to see how's this going to play out, but we should be sure he won't get more than 10 million a year.

[clipper]

As expected, the BosSox signed Matzusaka. Just the physical is left. It looks like 51-52M/6 yrs. With the 51M bid, its 17M/yr. He's projected 15-17 wins. Ricky, your 4M/yr looks about correct (good job) for Igawa. If you are correct at 4 yrs will be 10M/yr. I still have 12 wins for Igawa (Hi Dalowski, IMO). Which may means the BoSox would be paying paying 7M more for 3-5 wins. It's ironic the BoSox are acting this Spring like the "Evil Empire".

Clipper

[Evangelion]

As expected, the BosSox signed Matzusaka. Just the physical is left. It looks like 51-52M/6 yrs. With the 51M bid, its 17M/yr. He's projected 15-17 wins. Ricky, your 4M/yr looks about correct (good job) for Igawa. If you are correct at 4 yrs will be 10M/yr. I still have 12 wins for Igawa (Hi Dalowski, IMO). Which may means the BoSox would be paying paying 7M more for 3-5 wins. It's ironic the BoSox are acting this Spring like the "Evil Empire".

Clipper
The Sox signed a possible ace pitcher for under 10 million while pitchers like Lilly and Meche are going for 10 million. You're signing a pitcher people prefer in the bullpen. Even if you get him at 2.5 million a year, if he's in bullpen, then you would have paid 27.5 million for a possible long relief pitcher.

We'll have to wait and see in the coming days how much Igawa will land. While he should be signed for much less than Matsuzaka, he could be signed for not that much less than Matsuzaka. I don't know, but 4 years will be 10 a year? 2.5 million a year for a possible starter? I doubt that. At 4 years at 4 million a year seem more reasonable.

The Sox have been high spender for a numbers of years. They just haven't spend as much money as the Yankees.

Also, you don't think New York would be meeting the current market price if they were signing free agents this winter? They would be spending, just like other teams, if they had a need. Their lineup all, but set without a 1B, even then, they don't need to get one. They look fine with their bullpen and rotation. Igawa seem like the last free agent they need.

Simple fact would be they don't need to spend on high profile free agents.

Other than Igawa, what else do they need to do? Clemens could be in the plan, but not much else is needed.

[clipper]

The Sox signed a possible ace pitcher for under 10 million while pitchers like Lilly and Meche are going for 10 million. You're signing a pitcher people prefer in the bullpen. Even if you get him at 2.5 million a year, if he's in bullpen, then you would have paid 27.5 million for a possible long relief pitcher.

We'll have to wait and see in the coming days how much Igawa will land. While he should be signed for much less than Matsuzaka, he could be signed for not that much less than Matsuzaka. I don't know, but 4 years will be 10 a year? 2.5 million a year for a possible starter? I doubt that. At 4 years at 4 million a year seem more reasonable.

The Sox have been high spender for a numbers of years. They just haven't spend as much money as the Yankees.

Also, you don't think New York would be meeting the current market price if they were signing free agents this winter? They would be spending, just like other teams, if they had a need. Their lineup all, but set without a 1B, even then, they don't need to get one. They look fine with their bullpen and rotation. Igawa seem like the last free agent they need.

Simple fact would be they don't need to spend on high profile free agents.

Other than Igawa, what else do they need to do? Clemens could be in the plan, but not much else is needed.

I am surprise at the price and what Boras was saying in the papers and you have to give some credit to Theo. This price was NOT that much higher than the original 8M! I heard they sent a second offer at 12M but that was way off (rumor). I included the bid price in the total cost. You're right under 10M is good considering what other FA got. If you include the 51M bid it's at 17M.

I do feel Ricky is correct and Igawa will be around 4M/yr (the bid was 26M so if we sign him for 4 yrs 16M, and (16+26)/4 = 10M/yr).

I feel the 5 spot is between Igawa and Pavano and HOPE Igawa works out and ends up in our rotation. We'll see.

Clipper

[Waitinfor27]

Speaking of Igawa, is he signed yet? Because if he's not, the deadline's tomorrow night.

[Evangelion]

His contract got done some time ago to my knowledge.

I thought he was going to be introduced last week, but he's still not on the Yankee roster on most internet sites. So, not quite sure what's going down.

Edit - Nevermind, it's offical

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061227&content_id=1767964&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

[monkey333]

I figured to just bump this because it wasn't worth another thread.

With this interview Kei has become my favorite Yankee(maybe in a tie with Moose):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/franz_lidz/01/04/igawa.qa/index.html