Who were/are baseball's WORST fielders? [Archive]

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 07:32 AM

There have been many major leaguers who have something in common with Michael Jackson. They wore a glove on one hand for no apparent reason. These guys couldn't catch a cold if they were soul-kissed by someone with tuberculosis in the middle of the flu season! One of my favorite all-time baseball quotes came from Pirates pitcher Joe Trimble in 1952 who, upon watching a wind-blown candy wrapper settle in the glove of the Yankees' Nick Etten, who had laid his glove in foul ground near the first base bag, quipped, ""Nick Etten's glove fields better with Nick Etten out of it."

Now, I wouldn't put Etten anywhere near the top of my list of all-time bad fielders. There have been much worse.

Who was the worst fielder you ever saw? I can't honestly say I think Dick Stuart is the worst fielding first baseman ever because I never saw him play, but from everything I've read, this guy was to fielding what Etch-a-Sketch is to art! I mean, can nicknames like 'Dr. Strangeglove', 'Stonefingers' (inspired by a James Bond movie of almost the same name) and 'Clank' (the nickname his teammates preferred) possibly be wrong?

I also never got a chance to experience the heinous 'skills' of Babe Herman, Pete Browning or Hector Lopez, but I've heard tell.....

Among those I have seen, I think I can honestly say that Bobby Bonilla is almost in a class by himself. Oh, there were probably worse. He's just the one I fondly remember as consistently throwing to the wrong base and playing every ground ball like it was a charging bull. It either gored him or... OLE! I recall one game (when he was a Dodger - GASP!) when he misplayed a popup into a double, threw the ball away at third on the very next play trying to nail the runner at third and failed to act as a cutoff man on the very NEXT play, allowing the runner he allowed on third to score. And that was just ONE INNING! Dude was born with DH tattooed on his forehead!

Yes, yes, I know... Butch Hobson was worse. No... Pete Incaviglia was worse. No, no... Jose Offerman was worse.

I saw them all and, trust me, they were ALL worse!

Who are some of your favorite butter fingers in the field? Guys who weren't really fielders but just played one on TV?

This is not a poll. Just askin'.....

PopTop

03-15-2007, 10:12 AM

You already mentioned one on my list, Incaviglia. One of the funniest things I've seen at a ballpark was a group of Rangers fans out in the left field bleachers at the old stadium there in Arlington took one of those big foam rubber #1 hands, cut the index finger down and drew/painted on it to make it look like a big mitt. And when Inky would trot out to left field, they'd hold this thing up and yell for Pete to come get it and use it :laugh Incaviglia was real classy and laughed at it, even talked to the fans a little bit.

Old Sweater

03-15-2007, 10:29 AM

Pedro Guerrero, even by his own admittance.

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 10:48 AM

Pedro Guerrero, even by his own admittance.

I once saw a mock interview in which Tom Lasorda was 'interviewing' Pedro Guerrero. I don't have transcripts, but it went almost exactly like this...

Lasorda: "With me now is Pedro Guerrero. I've got him playing third base this season, and so far he doesn't like it. Pedro, tell me, what are you thinking about out there at third base?"

Guerrero: "I am thinking don't hit the ball to me."

Lasorda: "Is that all??"

Guerrero: (after a moment of thought) "I am also thinking don't hit the ball to Steve Sax, too!"

VIBaseball

03-15-2007, 10:59 AM

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 11:06 AM

Joel Youngblood was a good outfielder with a strong arm. But when the Giants stuck him at third base for the 1984 season, he fielded .887 with 36 errors.

Lonnie Smith's nickname "Skates" appears to have been earned when he was suffering his substance-abuse problems.

The experiment with Todd Hundley in left field was one of the worst fish-out-of-water things I've ever seen.

Speaking of Giant third basemen, I also saw Darrell Evans at third for SF. A bull in a china shop. When he'd trot off the field, the groundskeepers had to drag the infield two or three times again just to remove the divets and cover the blood. There were more craters around third base than there were on Evans' face. I remember fans jokingly referring to him as Darrell E-5ans.

RuthMayBond

03-15-2007, 11:27 AM

Speaking of Giant third basemen, I also saw Darrell Evans at third for SF. A bull in a china shop. When he'd trot off the field, the groundskeepers had to drag the infield two or three times again just to remove the divets and cover the blood. There were more craters around third base than there were on Evans' face. I remember fans jokingly referring to him as Darrell E-5ans.I would have given him the Gold Glove in at least 1974 AND 1978 :noidea

KCGHOST

03-15-2007, 11:31 AM

Let's not forget Jose Canseco.

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 11:37 AM

Let's not forget Jose Canseco.

(Quick: Someone needs to insert the pic of a ball bouncing off ole Jose's noggin' here....)

Westlake

03-15-2007, 11:49 AM

I'd say Manny Ramirez is the worst fielder in today's game.

SoxSon

03-15-2007, 11:57 AM

I'd say Manny Ramirez is the worst fielder in today's game.

While I understand the inclination to name him such, I'd have to disagree. He has a strong arm, and I'd count that in his favor.

Speaking of debacles in Fenway's left field, though, how's Lastings Milledge doing these days?

Westlake

03-15-2007, 12:02 PM

While I understand the inclination to name him such, I'd have to disagree. He has a strong arm, and I'd count that in his favor.

Speaking of debacles in Fenway's left field, though, how's Lastings Milledge doing these days?

A couple things...

Is a player's arm included in rating whether he is a good or bad 'fielder'? When you think of a 5-tool player, fielding and arm are seperate, aren't they?

And I don't really think Manny has a strong arm. I think his assist totals are inflated because SO many people run on him. I have seen him make many good throws to nail runners at home, but I wouldn't call his arm any better than average. But I understand others see it differently.

SoxSon

03-15-2007, 12:08 PM

A couple things...

Is a player's arm included in rating whether he is a good or bad 'fielder'? When you think of a 5-tool player, fielding and arm are seperate, aren't they?

And I don't really think Manny has a strong arm. I think his assist totals are inflated because SO many people run on him. I have seen him make many good throws to nail runners at home, but I wouldn't call his arm any better than average. But I understand others see it differently.

You make a good point, Westlake. Defense and arm quality are often looked at separately (in regards to 5-tool), though in the real world, that doesn't make much sense. If the arm isn't counted, then you have a real argument about Manny.

You're also right about Manny's assist totals, but I'm not basing my feeling on his arm on that. Manny has a nice, quick release when he's throwing, and I think he has above average strength, too. I'd actually like to see him do some throwing from right field, just to evaluate it better.

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 12:53 PM

You make a good point, Westlake. Defense and arm quality are often looked at separately (in regards to 5-tool), though in the real world, that doesn't make much sense. If the arm isn't counted, then you have a real argument about Manny.

You're also right about Manny's assist totals, but I'm not basing my feeling on his arm on that. Manny has a nice, quick release when he's throwing, and I think he has above average strength, too. I'd actually like to see him do some throwing from right field, just to evaluate it better.

Jose Canseco had a cannon for an arm, but I don't see anyone disputing his inclusion on this list of worst fielders.... Just my two cents. To be honest, I've never really seen him make that many bad plays in the OF, just that famous ball-off-the-noggin clip that was played to death.

Elvis

03-15-2007, 12:58 PM

Doink!

http://www.iiiii.nu/image_archive/public_figures/canseco_jose/head_home_run.jpg

http://sjl-static11.sjl.youtube.com/vi/PWmUWf3bifc/2.jpg

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 01:01 PM

Doink!

http://www.iiiii.nu/image_archive/public_figures/canseco_jose/head_home_run.jpg

http://sjl-static11.sjl.youtube.com/vi/PWmUWf3bifc/2.jpg

THANK YOU, ELVIS!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY PRICELESS!!

Westlake

03-15-2007, 01:14 PM

Now if I could only find a picture of Manny cutting Damon's throw off in left center...

BoSox Rule

03-15-2007, 02:06 PM

Jeter is probably the worst defensive SS with significant time.

hellborn

03-15-2007, 03:37 PM

Jose Canseco had a cannon for an arm, but I don't see anyone disputing his inclusion on this list of worst fielders.... Just my two cents. To be honest, I've never really seen him make that many bad plays in the OF, just that famous ball-off-the-noggin clip that was played to death.
I saw Canseco play a game in Old Comiskey in one of his first two seasons. We were in the RF bleachers and had a pretty good view. Grass was a little wet from earlier rain. Early in the game, Greg Walker hit a liner to Jose on a couple of bounces, it skimmed right past him without so much as nipping the glove. Canseco jogged nonchalantly out to the wall and heaved the ball in the vague direction of the IF, Walker (who was godawful slow) ends up on 3rd. Later, in the game, Walker hit a long fly out by the wall in RF...we couldn't see the play at the wall due to our position, but we saw the ball and Jose headed towards the wall, heard a huge crash, and then saw the ball trickling back off the wall and no Jose. The A's CF retrieved it, Walker gets 3rd again. Both scored as 3B, I think, but both horrible plays (I saw the replay of the 2nd one on TV and Jose misplayed the ball AND had no idea of where the wall was).
I think that Jose had the tools to be an outstanding OF, but just didn't give a damn. Incaviglia had the same attitude and no tools. Luzinski was pitiful in the OF all around. Brian Dayett was atrocious. Giambi may be the worst 1B I've seen. I have memories of Sixto Lezcano looking really bad at 3B.

Solair Wright

03-15-2007, 04:48 PM

George Bell, Toronto Blue Jays alumni, was a terrible outfielder, and that is no opinion. He'd make about 9 or 11 errors, with as high as 15 errors in 1988. He was an OF/DH, but I think he'd be better off as a DH. He had a .964 fielding percentage, which is not very good.

He's a good hitter though, but fielding is his Achilles' Heel.

Elvis

03-15-2007, 05:03 PM

Towards the end of his career Reggie Jackson was almost exclusively a DH, but every now and then I remember the Angels used him in the outfield. He was awful. :hp

Paul McCartney

03-15-2007, 05:07 PM

Jason Giambi comes to my mind. Especially as of late, he looks very uncomfortable at first base and is a liability on even the most routine plays.

Dodgerfan1

03-15-2007, 05:21 PM

I think Mike Piazza may just be the worst catcher ever. Offerman really was 'awful, man' at short, and any of you elder Pirate fans ever get a chance to see Rennie Stennett play second base? He made Chuck Knoblauch and Steve Sax look like Maz.

Paul McCartney

03-15-2007, 05:30 PM

Jeter is probably the worst defensive SS with significant time.
Advanced fielding statistics do make him look pretty bad, although I read that he has really improved in the past couple seasons. Many fans think of him as a god at shortstop because of his famed "Web Gems" and Gold Gloves.

mojorisin71

03-15-2007, 06:12 PM

I'd have to say Jose Awfulman. I cringed every time he went for the ball.

TheKingofKings

03-15-2007, 07:17 PM

Angel Berroa (SS-KCR)
Brandon Inge (3B-DET) is, so-and-so...
Alfonso Soriano (CF-CHC) isn't that great either...
And catcher-wise, Victor Martinez (C-CLE) is horrible at Throwing Out Runners.

RuthMayBond

03-15-2007, 07:40 PM

Brandon Inge (3B-DET) is, so-and-so...He deserved the Gold Glove last year :crazy

SABR Matt

03-15-2007, 10:46 PM

Solair Wright

03-15-2007, 11:25 PM

Todd Zeile and Brandon Inge suffer the same problem: Because they are converted third basemen from catchers, the throw can be difficult because the throw from third to first is longer, and more challenging, than the throw from home to second.

If it's the same distance, then I guess they overshoot the throw to the first baseman, and end up missing.

RuthMayBond

03-16-2007, 07:40 AM

Todd Zeile and Brandon Inge suffer the same problem: Because they are converted third basemen from catchers, the throw can be difficult because the throw from third to first is longer, and more challenging, than the throw from home to second.Um, usually 3B are to the RIGHT of 3B, and they don't make the throw out of a crouch, and don't have to worry about avoiding the pitcher, or the runner coming into second, or ... :confused:

TonyK

03-16-2007, 08:35 AM

Dodgerfan1

03-16-2007, 08:47 AM

Most weak fielders reach the majors because of their hitting. But Don Buddin of the Red Sox had a career average of only .241. Anyone else who watched him play shortstop can probably remember some of his gems like double play balls going through his legs. His errors seemed to always be costly ones.

This reminds me of a guy who I also featured as one of my bits of random trivia on the thread by that name. Ever heard of John Gochnaur? He was the starting shortstop with the Cleveland Indians in 1902 and 1903. His lifetime BA was .187. Ah, a good field, no-hit type, huh? BUZZ!!! NOT!! Try 48 errors at SS in 1902 and an unforgivable 98 errors in 1903 for a truly despicable FA of .901!! Needless to say, he was given the old heave-ho after 1903, was sent to his room without supper and told to never show his useless face around a major league diamond again.

This guy made Don Buddin look like, well..... a major leaguer.

TonyK

03-16-2007, 08:57 AM

This reminds me of a guy who I also featured as one of my bits of random trivia on the thread by that name. Ever heard of John Gochnaur? He was the starting shortstop with the Cleveland Indians in 1902 and 1903. His lifetime BA was .187. Ah, a good field, no-hit type, huh? BUZZ!!! NOT!! Try 48 errors at SS in 1902 and an unforgivable 98 errors in 1903 for a truly despicable FA of .901!! Needless to say, he was given the old heave-ho after 1903, was sent to his room without supper and told to never show his useless face around a major league diamond again.

This guy made Don Buddin look like, well..... a major leaguer.

His stats are pretty bad! I wonder if the Cleveland press was as hard on Gochnaur as Boston's was on Buddin? I remember everyone jumped on the We Hate Buddin Bandwagon. Maybe it's time to start a thread on the worst fielding shortstops ever?

hellborn

03-16-2007, 09:11 AM

No he didn't. LOL

Inge is an OK third baseman but he's definitely not a gold glover. That honor is a battle between Adrian Beltre, Eric Chavez (though he's been overrated lately) and Joe Crede IMHO.

Bad fielders...

Single season badness would go to Manny Ramirez and his 2005 PCA-BA of .186 for defense, though there are others who are close, such as Dr. Strangeglove (Dick Stuart) and his .191 career "best" badness level. Jose Offerman and Derek Jeter have done their little turn on the crapwalk as well with seasons circling the defensive mendoza line.

In terms of career badness, Dick Stuart takes the prize among all positions, but Steve Sax wins the award at second base (.237 defensive career), Chipper Jones clobbered his way to the title at third base with a skunk-like .222 mark, Derek Jeter's pretty-boy pirhouettes and god-awful range lead him to the award at SS, Darren Fletcher gaffed his way to defensive immortality behind the plate, and in the outfield, the dishonor goes to Greg Luzinski. :)
Funny, a bunch of us thought that Manny must have worked on his defense in the offseason following his historically bad performance in the '04 WS, because we thought he looked a little better (not good) in '05. At least early in the season. I'm actually surprised that Luzinski was never worse than Manny's worst year.
Very interesting choices, and most of them match commonly held perceptions. Does PCA-BA shows Jeter as having gotten better the last few years? I'm also curious about guys like Killebrew, Rose, and Bonilla who were moved to 3rd for extended periods...how bad were they?

Dodgerfan1

03-16-2007, 09:20 AM

Funny, a bunch of us thought that Manny must have worked on his defense in the offseason following his historically bad performance in the '04 WS, because we thought he looked a little better (not good) in '05. At least early in the season. I'm actually surprised that Luzinski was never worse than Manny's worst year.
Very interesting choices, and most of them match commonly held perceptions. Does PCA-BA shows Jeter as having gotten better the last few years? I'm also curious about guys like Killebrew, Rose, and Bonilla who were moved to 3rd for extended periods...how bad were they?

Hellborn,

My rather tongue-in-cheek intro that featured Bonilla as the worst third baseman in history was based not only on what I witnessed that day at Chavez Ravine, but throughout his entire short stint as Dodger 3Bman. His career FA at 3B is .931, which kinda sucks, but for that year with LA, 1997, it was a stenchy .912. Bonilla truly looked like a guy who can't swim tossed into the river. Killebrew's FP was .940 at 3B while Rose's was a more respectable .961.

I realize there are sabermetrics that may flesh out their true ability (or lack thereof) at the hot corner, but I don't do the saber thing, so feel free to jump right in!

ChrisLDuncan

03-16-2007, 01:02 PM

And catcher-wise, Victor Martinez (C-CLE) is horrible at Throwing Out Runners.

Victor Martinez's career CS% is 23%
Jason Varitek's is 26%

Tek's up there too as far as poor throwing arms.

ChrisLDuncan

03-16-2007, 01:06 PM

No he didn't. LOL

Inge is an OK third baseman but he's definitely not a gold glover. That honor is a battle between Adrian Beltre, Eric Chavez (though he's been overrated lately) and Joe Crede IMHO.

Actually I've watched a LOT of Brandon Inge, he's my favorite player defensively to watch, his glove work is average at best...but his arm is probably the strongest at 3B in all of baseball. His arm is so strong that he bobbles lots of balls, but yet he's still able to gun them down.

serumgard

03-16-2007, 02:03 PM

Actually I've watched a LOT of Brandon Inge, he's my favorite player defensively to watch, his glove work is average at best...but his arm is probably the strongest at 3B in all of baseball. His arm is so strong that he bobbles lots of balls, but yet he's still able to gun them down.
Inge is a marginally good fielder, but he makes spectacular plays at least once or twice a week, so people tend to think he's deserving of a Gold Glove, when in reality he's nowhere close (then again, if Derek Jeter can win more than one, how hard can it be?).

The comments about Manny Ramirez are interesting, considering the only reason he plays in the field and not DH is because David Ortiz is so horrendous at 1B (which you'd have to say is easier than LF) that they can't put him in the field for anything more than interleague games. And in the few games I've watched Manny play the field, I will say he plays the Monster about as well as anyone else could be expected.

MarinersFan51

03-19-2007, 07:19 PM

david ortiz, far too fat to move left or right, as long as theres another player on the team he will never field in AL

StanTheMan

03-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Actually I've watched a LOT of Brandon Inge.... ...but his arm is probably the strongest at 3B in all of baseball.

Attention shoppers...... Paging Mr Rolen..... Paging a Mr. Scott Rolen

StanTheMan

03-20-2007, 03:34 PM

I nominate Error-Miss Ramirez, 3B on the Cubs, as baseball's worst, at least the worst everyday player.

In the past 5 seasons, he has an MLB worst fielding percentage -- at .949 :eek: This required a few hundred games or so to be eligible for the list, something normal for 5 years anyway.

Not only is his glovework poor, but his range is horrid. Might as well have a boulder out there at third and attach a glove to it.. let the ball hit the boulder and get the rebounds.

But he can hit, there's no doubt about that.

Chris Duncan can't even catch a cold, and although he has worked hard on his defense in the off-season (or so I have read) we'll see if he has the ability to play OF in the big leagues this season. He can mash (a HR per At Bat ratio better than Soriano's last year!!) but can he flash the leather?

Westlake

03-20-2007, 04:01 PM

Victor Martinez's career CS% is 23%
Jason Varitek's is 26%

Tek's up there too as far as poor throwing arms.

If you say so. Is it absolutely necessary to try and find something wrong with a Red Sox in every thread?

Buzzaldrin

03-20-2007, 04:04 PM

Smead Jolley, anyone? Three errors on one play? Ball goes through his legs, hits the wall and bounces back, goes through his legs AGAIN, then he picks it up and throws it into the visitors dugout.

But man, could he hit. How can your fielding be so bad that you can't stay in the majors with a .305 lifetime average and decent power?

Well, he was one of the two or three greatest MINOR league players in history because of it.

punker268

03-20-2007, 04:15 PM

Now if I could only find a picture of Manny cutting Damon's throw off in left center...
OMG THAT IS HILARIOUS!
MLB Bloopers

punker268

03-20-2007, 04:32 PM

Attention shoppers...... Paging Mr Rolen..... Paging a Mr. Scott Rolen
you have GOT to be kidding me. The only reason why Rolen couldn't field is because his shoulder kept getting messed up

Westlake

03-20-2007, 04:50 PM

you have GOT to be kidding me. The only reason why Rolen couldn't field is because his shoulder kept getting messed up

He was saying that Rolen has the strongest arm for a 3rd baseman, not that he cant field.

ChrisLDuncan

03-20-2007, 05:00 PM

If you say so. Is it absolutely necessary to try and find something wrong with a Red Sox in every thread?

Common Evan...is that even a question ;)

Actually it's more that I don't think Vic is as bad as everyone thinks he is.

Erik Bedard

03-20-2007, 05:12 PM

The Tigers' pitchers! :laugh :laugh

Well, not all of them. Kenny Rogers is pretty good.

StanTheMan

03-20-2007, 05:27 PM

The Tigers' pitchers! :laugh :laugh

Well, not all of them. Kenny Rogers is pretty good.

How could I forget!?!?!?!?!?!!? I was at Game 4 and Game 5 of the World Sereis last fall, and saw the greatest sign EVER at a ballgame (at least from my perspective.)

After the Tiger's pitcher (Verlander this time) threw away ANOTHER ball on a Sac bunt from Jeff Weaver, the Cardinals were circling the bases, Busch Stadium was rocking.... and in the right field bleachers, a guy holds up a sign for the next batter which read.

"Hit it to the Pitcher"

StanTheMan

03-20-2007, 05:34 PM

you have GOT to be kidding me. The only reason why Rolen couldn't field is because his shoulder kept getting messed up

Rolen is probably the best defensive third baseman in the game, even with a bad shoulder. Rocket Arm, Great Glove, 7 of them the golden variety, excellent range, huge frame, and he charges and barehands the ball as good as anyone I have ever seen. He also leads NL Third Baseman in Double Plays just about every year.

Mike Schmidt, who won, what, 10 Gold Gloves,??? even admitted Rolen is superior in the field.

Jim Leyland, after the WS last fall, said Rolen may be the best defensive third baseman of all time. He win not get to Robinson's Gold Glove Mark, but some think Rolen can make more plays than Brooks. That I'm not so sure about, but you did miss the point of my post entirely, punker. (Hopefully that name is inspired by The Clash, The Stooges and The Ramones, rather than, say Ashton Kutcher)

Dodgerfan1

03-20-2007, 05:42 PM

Rolen is probably the best defensive third baseman in the game....

I'll bet you'd get an argument from a lot of Eric Chavez fans. I don't have their fielding stats in front of me, just what I've seen of Chavez day in and day out making incredible plays for Oakland. Rolen is great too, though. It's a tough call.

Westlake

03-20-2007, 05:45 PM

StanTheMan

03-20-2007, 05:58 PM

I'll bet you'd get an argument from a lot of Eric Chavez fans. I don't have their fielding stats in front of me, just what I've seen of Chavez day in and day out making incredible plays for Oakland. Rolen is great too, though. It's a tough call.

Not to get too off topic (the thread is supposed to be about BAD fielders)

But Rolen and Chavez do have similar Fielding percentages .968 and .966.

Rolen has played 259 more games, and leads in the following categories, and by how many...

Total Chances 821
Assists 628
Putouts 198
Double Plays 37
Rolen has 25 more errors in those 259 extra games

If Rolen stops playing now, and Chavez then plays 259 games... I don't think he matches most of those numbers.... probably has fewer errors but that's all.

It's a crude way of comparing the two of course, but day in day out good defense is, imo, more important to your team than flying into the third row of the seats while wearing pinstripes to catch a popup and jack your lip up at the same time. That said, Chavez is excellent.

hellborn

03-20-2007, 07:01 PM

It's a crude way of comparing the two of course, but day in day out good defense is, imo, more important to your team than flying into the third row of the seats while wearing pinstripes to catch a popup and jack your lip up at the same time. ...
Pokey Reese made the same play earlier in that game without having to jump into the stands and injure himself, because he was able to stop on a dime after making the catch.
I admire Jeter's hustle and disregard for his body, but COME ON!!!!!

StanTheMan

03-21-2007, 02:26 PM

Pokey Reese made the same play earlier in that game without having to jump into the stands and injure himself, because he was able to stop on a dime after making the catch.
I admire Jeter's hustle and disregards for his body, but COME ON!!!!!

Ozzie Smith would have already been at the spot, ate a sandwich, talked to a cute girl in the front row, and then made the catch while Jeter was running his "barry" off trying to get to the ball.

punker268

03-21-2007, 02:27 PM

Rolen is probably the best defensive third baseman in the game, even with a bad shoulder. Rocket Arm, Great Glove, 7 of them the golden variety, excellent range, huge frame, and he charges and barehands the ball as good as anyone I have ever seen. He also leads NL Third Baseman in Double Plays just about every year.

Mike Schmidt, who won, what, 10 Gold Gloves,??? even admitted Rolen is superior in the field.

Jim Leyland, after the WS last fall, said Rolen may be the best defensive third baseman of all time. He win not get to Robinson's Gold Glove Mark, but some think Rolen can make more plays than Brooks. That I'm not so sure about, but you did miss the point of my post entirely, punker. (Hopefully that name is inspired by The Clash, The Stooges and The Ramones, rather than, say Ashton Kutcher)
Ain't it funny that they both started their careers with the Phightin' Philz?

BTW, I hate Kutcher. Except in That '70's Show

RuthMayBond

03-21-2007, 02:28 PM

Ozzie Smith would have already been at the spot, ate a sandwich, talked to a cute girl in the front row, and then made the catch while Jeter was running his "barry" off trying to get to the ball.What did Mr. Zito ever do to you?

punker268

03-21-2007, 02:30 PM

There are a lot of very good defensive 3rd basemen right now...

Rolen
Chavez
Lowell
Beltre
Crede
Inge
Nunez has a pretty good glove but I wouldn't say he's really good because he can't hit but that's not the point.........

hellborn

03-21-2007, 08:42 PM

StanTheMan

03-22-2007, 07:34 PM

I was lucky enough to see a fair amount of Ozzie at SS in person from '84-7, and I do believe that you are correct, sir!!

Me too.... one of the first games my dad ever took me to was Bob Gibson day. I don't remember it, but I do remember Lou Brock day (in the Left Field Bleachers of course) as well as three different World Series I attended at Old Busch.. 82 85 and 87. Maybe 100 other games over the Whiteyball years and the few years after.

What a player Ozzie was. No shortstop in the modern era will ever have the number of total chances and assists Ozzie could rack up, certainly due in part to his incredible range and athleticism.

For example, Ozze has NINE seasons with more TC and assists that Omar Vizquel's BEST ever season, and Visquel is a great gloveman. In just 81 more games, Ozzie threw out a whopping 1,400 more runners than Visquel did. Incredible, when you think about it.

With so many sluggers today, there are far fewer ground balls too.... so the Wizard's numbers are safe, imo. Nobody will approach his record of 621 Total Chances in a season. I don't think anyone has come within 75 since Ozzie did it himself.

Dodgerfan1

03-22-2007, 07:52 PM

Time to get back on track.....

Rudy York was one of the most HORRIBLE catchers in history! He wasn't the greatest first baseman of all-time, either.

StanTheMan

03-22-2007, 08:04 PM

Yes, back on track.

Todd Walker seems to play second base with a frying pan on his hand instead of a glove.... although I don't have much to go on. It's just such a nice analogy. I know that at last check he endorsed Nokona Brand gloves, and the artwork of him in the high end baseball catalogs is clearly a basic head and shoulder shot of him at a ballpark, wth a Nokona glove superimposed where is other glove USED to be. The shadowing is all wrong, the lighting is off... the photo is a bad as his fielding!

Buzzaldrin

03-23-2007, 04:52 AM

Time to get back on track.....

Rudy York was one of the most HORRIBLE catchers in history! He wasn't the greatest first baseman of all-time, either.

He did, however, hit 18 homers in one month, and that stood as the single month record till Sosa finally topped it over 60 years later. I guess you can keep a glove like that in the line-up if you get a bat like that with it.

GotMelk?

03-23-2007, 02:16 PM

serumgard

03-23-2007, 02:22 PM

Seriously I try to watch every New York Yankee game during the season and I never notice Jeter's "horrible defenese" . I think he is a good defensive shortstop.
BTW: I'm sure Jeter wanted to dive into the stands and bloodly himself up just to make Sportscenter.
Jeter's not a horrendous, everyone-behind-first-base-ducks kind of shortstop, he's just not Gold Glove-worthy. The numbers generally back this fact up. He's not even the best shortstop on his own team.

KHenry14

03-23-2007, 03:05 PM

I made the mistake of getting tickets behind 1B at a Padres/Dodgers game once and sure enough, Sax almost hit me with a throw into the stands!

Him and poor Chuck Knobloch, just mentally couldn't make that short throw.

punker268

03-29-2007, 07:51 PM

lol Go Philz

natsnsoxfan

03-29-2007, 08:26 PM

There are a lot of very good defensive 3rd basemen right now...

Rolen
Chavez
Lowell
Beltre
Crede
Inge

Add Ryan Zimmerman to that list too.

Jeter is far from a GG SS. He won it over Alex Gonzalez last year didn't he? I do have some bias because he was on the Red Sox but anyone who watched any Red Sox and Yankee games last year know that Gonzalez was and is the far better defensive SS of the 2.

Dodgerfan1

03-30-2007, 05:16 AM

Seriously I try to watch every New York Yankee game during the season and I never notice Jeter's "horrible defenese" . I think he is a good defensive shortstop.
BTW: I'm sure Jeter wanted to dive into the stands and bloodly himself up just to make Sportscenter.

I don't have any opinion about Jeter's fielding one way or another, but citing one play in order to prove that someone is a good fielder doesn't seem very convincing. I once saw Jose Canseco make one of the greatest catches ever, much better than Jeter's play, and he has been mentioned on this thread, without much argument, as one of the worst fielders of all time.

EdmondsFan#1

03-30-2007, 11:42 PM

Chris Duncan.

He has had some errors last year where I almost cried.

Edit: but I didn't because there is no crying in baseball.

punker268

04-02-2007, 02:57 PM

I don't have any opinion about Jeter's fielding one way or another, but citing one play in order to prove that someone is a good fielder doesn't seem very convincing. I once saw Jose Canseco make one of the greatest catches ever, much better than Jeter's play, and he has been mentioned on this thread, without much argument, as one of the worst fielders of all time.

Totally.
The catch that was .. .. ..

Made by a no-name outfielder. Uhm, I seriously don't remember his name but whoever read the series by Dan Gutman (you know, the series where the kid travels through time using baseball cards) help me out here.

hellborn

04-04-2007, 11:10 AM

Time to get back on track.....

Rudy York was one of the most HORRIBLE catchers in history! He wasn't the greatest first baseman of all-time, either.

I'm responding to an old post here, but the Tigers' defense must have taken a dip with York at 1st and Greenberg, who moved for York, in LF. Guess all the mashing they got from those two made up for it.
York had a very odd stance and swing, held his hands very far forward and hitched them back pretty dramatically. Worked OK for him, apparently.

Huntington Avenue

04-05-2007, 11:05 PM

I hate you, worst fielding SS of all time.
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/Derek%20Jeter%20Dive%20into%20Stands.jpg

I saw this on TV and my first thought: YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED DUMB*SS.
It's still hard to swallow that he's the worst ever, though.

punker268

04-08-2007, 07:23 PM

What the heck?? Jeter can play! What are you guys smoking??

tommybaseball

04-10-2007, 11:07 AM

serumgard

04-10-2007, 04:28 PM

Who's got a picture of "The Flip"?
Who's got a picture of "The Jump Pass"?
Who's got a picture of Reyes not making "The Jump Pass"? and then Jeter showing him, I think maybe the next inning, "The Jump Pass"?
Oh geez. People outside of New York post actual statistical facts about Jeter showing that he's a below average - if not outright bad - shortstop, and of course the Yankees fans jump in and cite three good plays. Hey, he's been around 11 years. If you haven't made at least three good plays in that time, you're a DH.

natsnsoxfan

04-10-2007, 06:12 PM

actually, he only posted 2, proving the point even moreso.

serumgard

04-10-2007, 06:37 PM

Who's got a picture of "The Flip"?
Who's got a picture of "The Jump Pass"?
Who's got a picture of Reyes not making "The Jump Pass"? and then Jeter showing him, I think maybe the next inning, "The Jump Pass"?
Question: "The Flip" - wasn't Jeter horribly out of position? I've never seen a SS in that position on a play to the plate.
Question: "The Jump Pass" - name me a shortstop who couldn't make the "Jump Pass".
Question: "The Dive" - someone already said it...he could've stopped. I've seen Brandon Inge make almost the identical play. Inge didn't go flying into the stands, he didn't injure himself, and he didn't hurt his team by coming out of the game in a crucial moment.

So for every great play you can bring up for Jeter, you can come up with a reason as to why it wasn't as great as people think it is.

Dodgerfan1

04-10-2007, 06:43 PM

So for every great play you can bring up for Jeter, you can come up with a reason as to why it wasn't as great as people think it is.

True! Mays' catch in the '54 Series really wasn't that great because he could have actually turned and faced the diamond before he caught it. Gibby's homer off Eck in the '88 Series wasn't that great because Gibson didn't swing as hard as he should have. Thomson's homer in 1951 wasn't as great as people think it was because it only traveled about 300 feet.

Am I being faceteous? You bet. :rolleyes:

serumgard

04-10-2007, 06:51 PM

True! Mays' catch in the '54 Series really wasn't that great because he could have actually turned and faced the diamond before he caught it. Gibby's homer off Eck in the '88 Series wasn't that great because Gibson didn't swing as hard as he should have. Thomson's homer in 1951 wasn't as great as people think it was because it only traveled about 300 feet.

Am I being faceteous? You bet. :rolleyes:
And to a large extent, so am I. But the Yankee apologists who think Jeter is the Second Coming (most of whom, not coincidentally, also think A-Rod is the Antichrist, which is my bigger issue) always raise the same three plays when supporting Jeter's subpar defense and calling it Gold Glove worthy. They were three great plays, but great plays sometimes come from being out of position or doing things that even others can do.

Richmond Hill Phoenix

04-10-2007, 08:46 PM

The Flip was a good play...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mq_kcKHBCcA

serumgard

04-10-2007, 08:49 PM

The Flip was a good play...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mq_kcKHBCcA
The Flip was a freakin' brilliant play. There aren't many people who would have the presence of mind to make that play. Jeter is not a putrid fielder and probably never should have been brought up in the context of this discussion (God I hope I wasn't the one who brought him up first). But one or two or three great plays does not a Gold Glove worthy shortstop make. The fact that Jeter's won the Gold Glove three years in a row pretty much completely invalidates the award.

Y'know, if it wasn't made completely irrelevant when Rafael Palmeiro won for playing 28 games in the field.

Richmond Hill Phoenix

04-10-2007, 08:56 PM

Agreed. He's good, but not GG good.

RuthMayBond

04-10-2007, 08:58 PM

Dalkowski110

04-10-2007, 10:56 PM

Smead Jolley. Despite being an amazing hitter on both a Pacific Coast League level in the 1920's (the only era where you could really call it a Major League) and a power-hitting outfielder (even for the time!) for the Chicago White Sox, he literally fielded his way out of baseball. Simply put, he had no idea where the ball was going to land. When I interviewed Smead's niece, she said he'd started out as a pitcher and had a good arm, but never really could make the adjustment to playing the outfield. One infamous game Smead played in was with the 1926 San Francisco Seals. With Walter "Duster" Mails on the mound, Jolley made three errors to help give up FOUR unearned runs. But Jolley redeemed himself by clouting two homers and a double that day, just narrowly helping his team from his own mistakes.

Dodgerfan1

04-11-2007, 05:53 AM

You're actually comparing these to Jeter's :laugh

Not actually, no. The aforementioned Jeter plays were all fielding plays while the ones I mentioned.... oh, why do you always do that to me, RMB?? Your tongue is planted as firmly in your cheek as mine is!! :D

natsnsoxfan

04-11-2007, 01:25 PM

A few people have been saying that Manny is a terrible fielder on here, hes not. Hes a decent fielder, hes just lazy. Hes no better than decent but hes definately bottom of the barrell.

Calif_Eagle

07-15-2007, 12:20 AM

Going through old threads and seldom visited Forums... found this thread interesting... no one mentioned Curt Blefary who received plenty of mention in the classic book "Ball Four" as being an abysmal fielder. As I recall Dick Stuart also was mentioned in that book with anecdotes about his bad fielding as well. I distinctly recall as a Cleveland Indian fan, our TV Broadcasting team referring to one of our shortstops as the "Human Croquet Wicket"! Alas, time elapsed, or faulty memory has robbed me of his name. He had to be pretty bad though, I may try to research this and see who he might have been. I remember virtually rolling on the floor with side splitting laughter when I heard that description though! lol

Dodgerfan1

07-15-2007, 05:35 AM

Here's something you don't hear much at all about: Thurman Munson holds the top two marks for worst fielding percentage as a regular catcher (at least I know he did for a time....), but at least he could throw. Darrin Fletcher didn't rack up the errors quite like Munson did, but he couldn't throw anyone out! Didn't he set the career record for a catcher having the most pitchers steal bases on him? Something like that, anyway.

Another horrendous fielder was Pete Incaviglia. He was absolutely clueless in the field. He made Tony Armas look like Tris Speaker. Here is a big, fat guy with an ugly mullet (no, I'm not talking about Kruk here) waddling after balls in the outfield like a guy thrown in the water who can't swim. He may have hit some monster home runs, but his strikeout per AB were frightening, as well. Inky was born to DH.

Stumanji

07-15-2007, 02:42 PM

The Flip was a freakin' brilliant play. There aren't many people who would have the presence of mind to make that play.

Either way - it was such a close play that to this day I can't say for certain if Posada's tag was in time on Giambi's leg as it swung by... or late, on the back of Giambi's leg while his foot was planted on the plate.

Give Jeter credit for reading the errant throw, and getting into position to make the play.

Give Giambi a big kick to the head for not having the presence of mind to actually slide into home when there's a play at the plate. Heck, many baserunners would have railroaded Posada in that play.