Hargrove to resign

[Zito75]

The M's skipper is calling it quits because he has "lost the passion for the game." Too bad for the M's, they've been getting hot.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2922500

[RBi]

unreal, to have a manager quit on a team during a winning streak...

odd..

[leecemark]

--The M's have been playing great and Hargrove has been better this year than in the past, but I still think this helps rather than hurts the M's. Hargrove is not the most creative guy, nor is he quick to adjust when things aren't going well. The M's have gotten lucky that some of his favored players have gotten hurt (or in the case of Mateo in trouble with the law) forcing him to replace them with better options. Mclaren may be more willing to platoon some and/or go with the hot hand. He shook up the lineup for the better when he ran the team just for a weekend while Hargrove was gone earlier this season.

[Dodgerfan1]

I wonder if George Steinbrenner called him up and told him the Yanks would be in the market soon.....

[Yankees2k6]

That was unexpected.

[SABR Matt]

WOOOOHOOOO!!!! :D

Grover is one of the nicest guys around so I feel for him, but this likely means Adam Jones is getting a call up very soon and it could save the Mariners' chances of signing Ichiro.

[leecemark]

--I'd like to see Jones in LF, Ibanez at DH and Vidro on the bench myself, but I doubt that is going to happen right away. The team is going great right now and even with Hargrove gone I'd be surprised to see them make any major changes. The last thing I'd want is to see Jones called up in the Ellison role. OTOH, maybe Mclaren will be inclined to use his bench a little more often and effectively.
--For now I'll be happy if they keep finding playing time for Broussard (RF/1B/DH vs RHP) now that Ibanez is back. We can also hope this means Horatio Ramirez won't get a chance to rejoin the rotation.
P.S. I do agree this gives us a better shot at resigning Ichiro. He was unlikely to play for Hargrove another season.

[Rennie Stennett]

What if you bring Jones up and he sucks ? Then what ?

[SABR Matt]

Vidro is pretty "broke" with his DP rate and lack of power.

Vidro is hitting for an 85 OPS+ this year...how much worse than that can it get? Jones is ripping the freakin' hell out of the ball in AAA...whether he "sucks" or not, he'd not be coming up without back-up options and he'd be hitting 9th....I think we need to take that risk given his defensive ability and Ibanez' total lack thereof.

[charlesTG126]

nahhh we trade vidro!

heaven knows why re signed him in the first place... an old second baseman who can't run anymore and is hurt all the time (granted, most of the injury is because of playing the field).

while vidro would be a great switch-hitting bat on the bench, i doubt that would suit his personal interests, and i'm sure we can find a place for him to be unhappy that isn't here (e.g. the national league).

of course, in a perfect world, we cleanse ourselves of jose guillen, horacio ramirez, and the memory of matt lawton.

i hear bill bavasi is good friends with mike hargrove, so my fingers are crossed in hopes of a double-resignation. either way, i'll be at the next mariners' game with a "hey mariners! get sam presti!" sign.

peace,
erik

[Rennie Stennett]

Other then Ortiz (.331) what other DH's are doing anything ? Not many DH's even play everyday. Much of the time it's used to give a player in the field a break. Vidro has more AB's then any other DH. Not bad for a guy who is injured all the time. Vidro does things in the free swinging M's lineup that is needed. He's a contact guy, who often gives himself up by moving runners over. With the M's NL style, he's great at the Sac bunt. Early on, I cringed when he would square around to bunt, figuring he'd do equally good at putting the ball in play on the right side, but he's amazingly automatic at the bunt. Vidro is hitting in the two nineties. How well would he do if he was selfish and only thought of himself ? I know we all envision the DH as this big burly guy who hits 500 foot homers, but this is not the case. Edgar was an exception. A guy who could hit for average and power. As you mentioned, I wouldn't want Adam Jones to come up and be put in Ellison's role. I would want him as everyday player. He's knocked like twenty doubles and twenty homers in the first half for Tacoma. The Mariners are doing everything right. Most of the players are moving guys over and getting them in. An unselfish style of play that is hard to find these days.

Old School Baseball: get 'em on, get 'em over and get 'em in.

[Stumanji]

I think we need to take that risk given his defensive ability and Ibanez' total lack thereof.

Total lack? That's a little harsh. Ibanez is a fine outfielder.

He's having his worst defensive year this season (5 errors so far this season - his most in a season prior to this was 5 in 2004) but he's not exactly a liability.

Remember, he had the 2nd best catch of the year last year (according to many opinions).

July 1: Ibanez Robs Carroll (http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=sea&ym=200607)

[SABR Matt]

Um...no. Ibanez is not a fine outfielder. Not this year. It's not the errors you should be looking at when judging outfielders...it's the range. Range Factor doesn't work because there are 28 outs in every game so bad defensive teams look just about the same as good defensive teams. Zone based metrics aren't perfect, but the ones out there (such as the Hardball Times' fielding metrics) suggest that Ibanez is costing the Mariners 10-15 runs on defense in the first half alone relative to an average left fielder...that's downright TERRIBLE.

Adam Jones, by all accounts from AAA, is an above average CENTER fielder...in left, he would be outstanding.

[leecemark]

--Ibanez is not a good or even adequete outfielder. He is not up to the task of patrolling the wide spaces of Safeco's LF. A 2nd CFer is what is needed there - or at least a very good leftfielder. I'm not sure he is worse than Guillen though. If Raul is really opposed to full time DHing and the M's don't want to force the issue he might be adequete in the smaller area of RF.
--Vidro is not a very good hitter, but he does get on base and work the count better than most Mariners. If we could move Guillen (Vidro is virtually untradable) instead I'd be fine with getting Jones in the lineup that way.
--Actually we could keep everybody and spread the palying time around and I'd be okay with that too.
C: Johjima with Burke once a week or so
1B: Sexson with Broussard occasionally spelling him vs RHP
2B: Lopez with Vidro once a week or so
3B: Beltre with Bloomquist occasionally givign him a breather
SS: Betancourt with Bloomquist occasionally spelling him
LF: Jones with Broussard playing against some RHP
CF: Ichiro with Jones occasionally giving him a breather
RF: Ibanez/Guillen platoon
DH: BroussardVidro platoon
--That would have Vidro playing against all LHP and some RHP (for Lopez and when Broussard plays LF), Broussard would be in the lineup vs all RHP. Ibanez would be sitting vs LHP (which he can't hit anymore). All our bench guys would be involved and put in situations where they have their best chance for success. That beats the Hargrove plan of just sending the same 9 out everyday regardless of who is pitching or who might be wearing down and need a break.

[tearforamariner]

The M's have won 8 straight games. Right now, why don't we just stick to what's been working?

[leecemark]

--Some of this HAS been working during our hot streak. Broussard has played almost everyday (all RHP anyway) while Ibanez was hurt. He has been one of our best hitters during that time. It would be a shame to see him go back to rusting away on the bench.
--Hot streak or not this is far from a perfect team and any way to improve it and increase our chance of making the playoffs shouldn't be ignored. I doubt any significant changes are going to be made until the team cools off, but this team is not so good we can wait until we have an 8 game losing streak to put our best team on the field. If the M's fall more than a few games back they probably don't have the horses to come back (especially if they need to pass several other teams).

[SABR Matt]

Put Guillen in a platoon and you'll get to see something few people ever experience...spontaneous human combustion. Guillen would go off like Mt. St. Crazy and take half the clubhouse with him. You cannot platoon Guillen, no matter how much it makes sense.

If Ibanez can't hit as a DH...and Broussard can't hit as a DH, then Broussard needs to be traded, Guillen needs to be traded, Griffey needs to be acquired, and Jones called up.

Jones in LF
Griffey in RF
Ibanez the fourth outfielder, partial DH but not so often he gets ticked off, and getting into almost every game spelling one of the other outfielders or the DH
Vidro the DH against all lefties and a handful of righty starts.

[Rennie Stennett]

Um...no. Ibanez is not a fine outfielder. Not this year. It's not the errors you should be looking at when judging outfielders...it's the range. Range Factor doesn't work because there are 28 outs in every game so bad defensive teams look just about the same as good defensive teams. Zone based metrics aren't perfect, but the ones out there (such as the Hardball Times' fielding metrics) suggest that Ibanez is costing the Mariners 10-15 runs on defense in the first half alone relative to an average left fielder...that's downright TERRIBLE.

Adam Jones, by all accounts from AAA, is an above average CENTER fielder...in left, he would be outstanding.

What does the range factor and zone based metrics say about Yuniesky Betancourt ? He has 18 errors this year compared to 20 all of last year. He reminds me at times of Carlos Guillen, when he was here; slick at making the tough plays but terrible at making the easy ones. I would like him to throw over the top more and not get lazy and throw those whippy curve balls and sinkers to Sexson. Take it easy on the big guy. It's not Olerud over there for pete sake !

[SABR Matt]

YuBet is rating as a roughly average fielder at the moment...a couple runs below. The errors are killing him and the range is a little less than you'd think because he's not positioning himself all that well so he's having to make spectacular plays just to get to balls that Cal Ripken would be standing in front of and calmly tossing to first.

[Griffey24-30]

The M's have won 8 straight games. Right now, why don't we just stick to what's been working? I was waiting for someone to say that.

[SABR Matt]

Why exactly were you waiting for someone to say such a short sighted, not particularly insightful thing?

[Rennie Stennett]

Do you think Adam Jones is trade bait for some pitching (Mark Buehrle) or others and therefore, the M's won't bring him up now when he's doing well in AAA Tacoma rather then risk him slumping at the big league level and not be trade-able ?

I checked out the Mark Buehrle (5-4, 3.33) file and of his 15 starts this year all of his starts he has gone deep into the game with the exception of his first start of the year. He's gave up five runs once and four runs a couple of times and the rest have been very good. He just doesn't get any run support.

[leecemark]

--Buerle would obviously make the team better. He would be a bigger plus than Jones being called up for the rest of this season for sure. The question is "do you really want to trade an extremely talented young player who we can have in the lineup at a bargain rate for at least 6 years for 1/2 a season of pitching upgrade?" My answer would be no.
--I'm sure Guillen would have issues with being platooned. If he can't handle it without disrupting the clubhouse though then I'd trade him for whatever we could get - or just release him - and give Wlad the platoon spot. He is hitting as good as Jones at Tacoma, but not so great with the glove. Or perhaps poor Ellison could stick around and actually get some playing time. He is our second best defensive outfielder if not so great with the bat.

[Stumanji]

Um...no. Ibanez is not a fine outfielder. Not this year. It's not the errors you should be looking at when judging outfielders...it's the range.

This is where baseball suffers when it comes to arguing one player's merits over another player.

When I said Ibanez was a fine outfielder, I wasn't critiquing his range. He gets good jumps, makes all the plays within his range (erm, except those five this year :crazy ), and has a good arm (not cannon-Ichiro-esque, but good).

Those, to me, make him a fine outfielder.

The fact that he doesn't have the WHEELS that Jones has doesn't make him a "terrible" outfielder - just a slow one. When I think of "terrible" I flash to Carl Everett - misreading linedrives and popflies, sliding and completely missing a ball, overthrowing cut-off men...

Those, to me, make a "terrible" outfielder.

I guess it's my Little League Coach mentality - Ibanez, really, lacks only the speed to make him a great outfielder.

[Rennie Stennett]

From ESPN.COM: July 2, 2007
Hargrove Resigns

Mike Hargrove quit as Mariners' manager Sunday. He said he lost his passion for the job. The conspiracy theories indicate either Ichiro didn't like him and Seattle wanted to keep Ichiro, or Hargrove wanted an extension beyond 2008.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4570

[Rennie Stennett]

When I said Ibanez was a fine outfielder, I wasn't critiquing his range. He gets good jumps, makes all the plays within his range (erm, except those five this year :crazy ), and has a good arm (not cannon-Ichiro-esque, but good).

Those, to me, make him a fine outfielder.

Ibanez has a acurate arm. He always throws to the correct base. He quickly adjusted to Ichiro in center. Part of playing outfield is knowing where the other outfielders are and knowing what they can get to and knowing what you can do. Rule one in the M's outfield is don't run into Ichiro. Fellow outfielders and little leaguers can learn from watching Ichiro play the outfield. His footwork is the best in the league. He's always in the right position to throw and he even practices these moves during meaningless outs in meaningless times of a game or season.

[Wade8813]

Put Guillen in a platoon and you'll get to see something few people ever experience...spontaneous human combustion. Guillen would go off like Mt. St. Crazy and take half the clubhouse with him. You cannot platoon Guillen, no matter how much it makes sense. RoFL. that was a truly funny comment.