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ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 04:57 PM
Today San Diego Chargers LB Sean Merriman was caught roiding up, last season he was the defensive RoY and made the Pro Bowl (All-Star game for those of you who don't watch football), the media covered it but it wasn't that big. For example on PTI it wasn't even the front story (the WS was...but still), it didn't even get it's own segment they just briefly mentioned it when they were talking about the Chargers. I guess my point is that one of the bright young stars of the NFL was caught using roids and most people seem to kind of blow it off, imagine if Albert Pujols were to be caught roiding. Imagine if he tested negative for steroids. It would no doubt be the front page sports story, but in the NFL (the most popular sport haveyou) it's not even mentioned. I just think that this is horrible and that baseball is unfairly judged.

W_Marone
10-23-2006, 05:10 PM
thats why one of my seahawks, Lofa Tatupu should have been ROY last year baby.

Ubiquitous
10-23-2006, 05:31 PM
It isn't the media that decides what is an issue and what isn't. It us the fans that decide what is and isn't. We as fans have a very very long history of not caring how and what football players do to get an edge or play. We don't care if they kill each other, or stuff themselves full of pills to do it. But Baseball has history, baseball has romance, and all that other jazz. We view it as an institution therefore it must be pure. Whereas football is an entertainment and we must be entertained.

W_Marone
10-23-2006, 05:35 PM
thats the problem with football and basketball, full of thugs, everyone thinks they can get away with anything they want to, basketball more than football though. I'm not meaning this as black people, just football or basketball players in general.

racosun
10-23-2006, 06:17 PM
Today San Diego Chargers LB Sean Merriman was caught roiding up, last season he was the defensive RoY and made the Pro Bowl (All-Star game for those of you who don't watch football), the media covered it but it wasn't that big. For example on PTI it wasn't even the front story (the WS was...but still), it didn't even get it's own segment they just briefly mentioned it when they were talking about the Chargers. I guess my point is that one of the bright young stars of the NFL was caught using roids and most people seem to kind of blow it off, imagine if Albert Pujols were to be caught roiding. Imagine if he tested negative for steroids. It would no doubt be the front page sports story, but in the NFL (the most popular sport haveyou) it's not even mentioned. I just think that this is horrible and that baseball is unfairly judged.

I agree. Shouldn't it be that 'roids are 'roids no matter what the sport is? I'm guessing that when people hear the word "steroids" they think of Barry Bonds first. Steroid abuse is certainly front and center in the sports world, but it's magnified even more in baseball because of the Senate hearings and all the other stories involving baseball and it's players. Baseball and steroids, if not yet married, are definitely engaged. Wait until the World Series is over, and you'll see the government step up it's attack on Bonds and his pursuit of the home run record, and that'll be the only thing you'll read about baseball until a major FA signing or ST starts. Unfair, but true.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 06:35 PM
It isn't the media that decides what is an issue and what isn't. It us the fans that decide what is and isn't. We as fans have a very very long history of not caring how and what football players do to get an edge or play. We don't care if they kill each other, or stuff themselves full of pills to do it. But Baseball has history, baseball has romance, and all that other jazz. We view it as an institution therefore it must be pure. Whereas football is an entertainment and we must be entertained.

i understand the point you're making and to a certain extent i agree. however, i disagree with your point about the media's ability to drive the agenda of the nation.

one example of their ability to do this is somolia and rwanda. in the 90's, the us put troops into somolia to try and quell a humanitarian crisis largely because of the media attention that the crisis received. the genocide in rwanda was largely under reported until after the height of the crisis, therefore it never became an issue that the us govt had to deal with. the same is true with dufar today-if the media focused on it and drove home the genocide that is happening there, it would become a huge issue and our govt would be forced to respond.

if the media wanted to make an issue out of ped usage in football, they could. if they gave as much ink to the issue as they do to bonds, mcgwire, sosa, palmerio, giambi, et al, what do you think would happen?

the media loves to attack institutions. i think it's a mentality installed in a generation of journalists that came of age after vietnam/watergate. they habitually attack institutions such as the presidency (nixon, regan, clinton, bush), the catholic church (priest scandels, the roll of women in the church, their stance on abortion, contraception, etc), and baseball (steroids, ratings, labor relations). it's in their nature to view large institutions with scepticism and to look for flaws.

that being said, i still really don't understand why football gets a pass on the ped issue. there is more than enough recent evidence to suggest that their drug testing regime isn't working (romonowski, the panthers, this most recent thing). maybe it's because there is such a long history of ped use in football-it's a nonissue because it's an old issue. or maybe it's because all they ever catch are def and off linemen-if they caught a skill position player then i think all heck would break lose. but football is as big-if not bigger-institution in this country as baseball and so i think it's only a matter of time before the media really jumps on this with both feet.

but i don't think disintrest among fans plays much of a part in this. baseball fans-based on the number of people attending games, watching on tv, listening on the radio, buying merchandise-in general don't really seem to care about the steroid thing. i think in large part they're just ambivalent to it.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 06:42 PM
Wait until the World Series is over, and you'll see the government step up it's attack on Bonds and his pursuit of the home run record, and that'll be the only thing you'll read about baseball until a major FA signing or ST starts. Unfair, but true.

i guarantee you that this going to happen. especially if the dems take control of one or both houses of congress (im not bashing the dems; i'm just saying if a new party controls congress, you'll have new commitee chairmen, and they'll want to take a crack at the issue, get their face on tv, etc). but it won't happen until after the new congress takes it's seat next year. you can bet the farm on it happening sometime in late march, early april. hmmm, what else happens at that time next year? congressional subpoenas for everybody just in time for opening day!

Ubiquitous
10-23-2006, 06:48 PM
The media focuses on issues they think will be popular issues. Now perhaps this is a bit of a chicken or the egg type debate or perhaps once wishes to view the media as a bunch Hearst's running around but those are debates that would be very hard to have in this forum.


The media didn't create the outrage to steroids in baseball. We created that we reacted to that news in a way that caused steroids to be a huge issue in baseball. We bought the newspapers, we called into the radio, we watched it on the TV. We also created the non-issue of steroid use in football. The media reports it, it is up to us to react to it.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 06:59 PM
Uh the difference here is that The NFL has had a testing policy since the late 80's and has not been afraid/unwilling/indifferent about suspending top players for their infractions, when new substances become known retesting old tests for said substances and reworking the CBA/substance abuse policy to address problems like HGH without having congress drag them in and scold them like disobediant children. They are proactive and aggressive in their policy and suspending Shawn Merriman just shows that even the next heir apparent to LT is still not above the law.

Baseball let it's problem get out of control and is reaping the media harvest from what its sewn with years of ignorance and non-action.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 07:14 PM
Now perhaps this is a bit of a chicken or the egg type debate

The media didn't create the outrage to steroids in baseball.

i respect what you're saying. it's logical and makes sense. but i still don't really agree with it. :laugh i think you're right about the chicken and egg thing though. does the media create public opinion or does it report it? in all honesty, it's probably a little of both.

while it's true that the media didn't create the steroids in baseball issue, they have given it an extraordinary amount of ink (for lack of a better word in a digital age). for some reason (those that i touched on in my first post), the media has focused on ped use in baseball rather than ped use in other sports such as football, track and field, and cycling. all of those sports have as much ped use, if not more, than does baseball. but barry bonds is the face of steroids.

i think it is possible that the issue is too large and complicated for the modern media. it's not explainable in sound bites or 30 second segments on news channels. to do justice to the entire issue of ped in modern sports would require a week long series of articles in a newspaper-and who's willing to do that and who's really going to read it?

in the end, i think this issue really comes down to star power. everybody knows who barry bonds and mark mcgwire are. not too many average sports fans can tell you who shawne merriman or floyd landis or c.j. hunter is. if they ever catch tom brady or peyton manning doing peds then football will have a serious pr nightmare on their hands, equaling the one that baseball is currantly dealing with now.

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 07:16 PM
Uh the difference here is that The NFL has had a testing policy since the late 80's and has not been afraid/unwilling/indifferent about suspending top players for their infractions, when new substances become known retesting old tests for said substances and reworking the CBA/substance abuse policy to address problems like HGH without having congress drag them in and scold them like disobediant children. They are proactive and aggressive in their policy and suspending Shawn Merriman just shows that even the next heir apparent to LT is still not above the law.

Baseball let it's problem get out of control and is reaping the media harvest from what its sewn with years of ignorance and non-action.

Well there are several things wrong with that statement, first off the NFL does have a policy but that's just a figurehead...it doesn't really for anything and there are numerous ways to get around the tests. Look at half of these players do you think that just Merriman is the only player roiding in the NFL? You think that AJ Hawk's forehead is that out of proprtion with his head? Second Merriman is not the heir apparent to LT, plus LT got away with what ever he wanted he did blow and crank before games.

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 07:20 PM
in the end, i think this issue really comes down to star power. everybody knows who barry bonds and mark mcgwire are. not too many average sports fans can tell you who shawne merriman or floyd landis or c.j. hunter is. if they ever catch tom brady or peyton manning doing peds then football will have a serious pr nightmare on their hands, equaling the one that baseball is currantly dealing with now.


You can add Marion Jones and her husband to that list. Bonds wasn't HUGE untill the roids thing, but than again baseball is VERY under the radar.

Ubiquitous
10-23-2006, 07:22 PM
Uh the difference here is that The NFL has had a testing policy since the late 80's and has not been afraid/unwilling/indifferent about suspending top players for their infractions, when new substances become known retesting old tests for said substances and reworking the CBA/substance abuse policy to address problems like HGH without having congress drag them in and scold them like disobediant children. They are proactive and aggressive in their policy and suspending Shawn Merriman just shows that even the next heir apparent to LT is still not above the law.

Baseball let it's problem get out of control and is reaping the media harvest from what its sewn with years of ignorance and non-action.


Yes the NFL has a nice window dressing that cause people to go ooh and aah and then go back to cheering their roided up gladiators.

Shawn got caught and he got punished. That will show him, next time he will do a better job of concealing it. NFL players are drugged, and whatever system the NFL has isn't working to keep them from being drugged. What it is doing is keeping the government of their backs and the fans going ooh and aah. So in that regard it is a great policy. But in terms of actually curbing drug use, it has failed miserably.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 07:24 PM
Uh the difference here is that The NFL has had a testing policy since the late 80's and has not been afraid/unwilling/indifferent about suspending top players for their infractions

do you believe that the nfl has a bigger or smaller ped problem than mlb? do you think a higher % of nfl players or baseball players use peds? i know we don't have the evidence but if i had to guess, i would say that football, even with a drug testing regime in place for a generation, has a bigger problem with ped than does baseball. if that's true, why isn't football getting dragged through the mud in the way that baseball is? if that's true, doesn't it mean that their testing program isn't effective?

yes, it's true that baseball is reaping what it has sown but football, going back at least to the 50's, has had a serious drug problem. it took them 30 years to begin to address it and with the recent news about the panthers and merrimen, it doesn't look like they have a very good handle on it.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 07:27 PM
You can add Marion Jones and her husband to that list. Bonds wasn't HUGE untill the roids thing, but than again baseball is VERY under the radar.

my point is proved! :laugh c.j. hunter was marion jones' husband. sorry chris. or are you talking about her "partner" tim montgomery?

edit: i didn't mention marion jones because i figured everybody knew who she is. she's too good looking to forget or ignore. :cool:

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 07:40 PM
my point is proved! :laugh c.j. hunter was marion jones' husband. sorry chris. or are you talking about her "partner" tim montgomery?

edit: i didn't mention marion jones because i figured everybody knew who she is. she's too good looking to forget or ignore. :cool:

Who's that next fastest man in the world? He just got caught and I forgot his name, and yes I was thinking of Tim Montgomery.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 07:56 PM
Well there are several things wrong with that statement, first off the NFL does have a policy but that's just a figurehead...it doesn't really for anything and there are numerous ways to get around the tests. Look at half of these players do you think that just Merriman is the only player roiding in the NFL? You think that AJ Hawk's forehead is that out of proprtion with his head? Second Merriman is not the heir apparent to LT, plus LT got away with what ever he wanted he did blow and crank before games.

If you want to think the NFL does nothing ask the players who got caught up in the Balco scandal about it. Ask Dexter Manly about it, ask Onterrio Smith, ask Rickey Williams, ask Travis Henry, ask Koren Robinson, Ask Chris Henry or Odel Thurman, ask Todd Sauerbrun. Also Merriman is one of three players who were caught this past couple of weeks. And if you knew what you were talkign about you would know that LT was suspended for drug infractions. Its also evident that you are not aware that the NFL has different standards for punishing recreational drugs and PED's. PED's mandate an instant 4 game suspension where as substances of abuse require entering a rehab program on the first test and a 4 game suspension on a subsequent positive test.

And if its just a figurehead as you assert why are they catching players?

I never said that the NFL doesn't have a drug problem, it does just like any sport. But unlike baseball the NFL hasn't spent the last 10-15 years dragging it's feet and counting money while pretending that it didn't exsist.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 07:56 PM
Who's that next fastest man in the world? He just got caught and I forgot his name, and yes I was thinking of Tim Montgomery.

Justin Gatling.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 07:58 PM
Yes the NFL has a nice window dressing that cause people to go ooh and aah and then go back to cheering their roided up gladiators.

Shawn got caught and he got punished. That will show him, next time he will do a better job of concealing it. NFL players are drugged, and whatever system the NFL has isn't working to keep them from being drugged. What it is doing is keeping the government of their backs and the fans going ooh and aah. So in that regard it is a great policy. But in terms of actually curbing drug use, it has failed miserably.

So if Fottball has "failed miserably" what is your opinion of the MLB? :noidea

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 08:01 PM
I mean the story is at the bottom of the front page on the football section of ESPN.com
http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/index?lpos=globalnav&lid=gn_NFL_NFL

If this was baseball, it would be on ESPN.com's front page not just the baseball part.

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 08:01 PM
Justin Gatling.

Didn't he get caught too?

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 08:03 PM
If you want to think the NFL does nothing ask the players who got caught up in the Balco scandal about it. Ask Dexter Manly about it, ask Onterrio Smith, ask Rickey Williams, ask Travis Henry, ask Koren Robinson, Ask Chris Henry or Odel Thurman, ask Todd Sauerbrun. Also Merriman is one of three players who were caught this past couple of weeks. And if you knew what you were talkign about you would know that LT was suspended for drug infractions. Its also evident that you are not aware that the NFL has different standards for punishing recreational drugs and PED's. PED's mandate an instant 4 game suspension where as substances of abuse require entering a rehab program on the first test and a 4 game suspension on a subsequent positive test.

And if its just a figurehead as you assert why are they catching players?

I never said that the NFL doesn't have a drug problem, it does just like any sport. But unlike baseball the NFL hasn't spent the last 10-15 years dragging it's feet and counting money while pretending that it didn't exsist.

Those were drug/dui/other arrests. Plus Sauerbrun was still an all-star punter even AFTER the alleged roiding.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 08:06 PM
Who's that next fastest man in the world? He just got caught and I forgot his name, and yes I was thinking of Tim Montgomery.

i'm not sure who you're talking about but the last person i can think of who got caught other than jones and montgomery is christine ohuruogu, the women's 400 meter champ at the commenwealth games. she claims she's innocent and is appealing her year long suspension.

and before we scoff at these claims of innocence (as i usually do), i just found a great article about steroids being found in nutritional supplements and vitamins. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/track_field/wires/10/01/2080.ap.run.doping.supplements.0451/index.html i guess the lesson is that even when you're careful about what you're putting into your body, sometimes you just never know. :(

Skin & Bones
10-23-2006, 08:07 PM
I mean the story is at the bottom of the front page on the football section of ESPN.com
http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/index?lpos=globalnav&lid=gn_NFL_NFL

If this was baseball, it would be on ESPN.com's front page not just the baseball part.


Yep, and this is thanks to Barry Bonds and the BALCO case. This issue is so grossly overblown by the casual fan, it's not even funny. Most don't have any knowledge of what steroids do for an athlete, other than what ESPN tells them, or what Jim Rome rants about on his " show ". To be realistically honest, if Bonds didn't exist, this probably wouldn't be an issue discussed time after time, with misinformed information spewed out about the drugs daily.

Ubiquitous
10-23-2006, 08:11 PM
I never said that the NFL doesn't have a drug problem, it does just like any sport. But unlike baseball the NFL hasn't spent the last 10-15 years dragging it's feet and counting money while pretending that it didn't exsist.


Oh really? Is the NFL drug policy effective? Does NFL have the power to make their policy more effective or just plain effective? Do they choose not too? The NFL makes boatloads of cash off the steroided backs of their players. Heck it is practically requirement nowadays to compete in the NFL to be taking something.

I personally love when draft day comes around and everybody is saying this guy needs to add 30 pounds of muscle or that guy needs to bulk up to compete in the NFL, and then poofda they do. Where do you think that bulk that muscle is coming from? Whoppers from burger king?

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 08:11 PM
Those were drug/dui/other arrests. Plus Sauerbrun was still an all-star punter even AFTER the alleged roiding.


Uh you may want to check your facts, Todd Sauerbrun is currently unemployed. http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/10/10/ap3081218.html

Robb
10-23-2006, 08:12 PM
Probably has to do w/ public perception of football players ("they're warriors and it should be ok if they use steroids") & teh fact that baseball players are probably more known/personal to the average fan.

ChrisLDuncan
10-23-2006, 08:14 PM
Uh you may want to check your facts, Todd Sauerbrun is currently unemployed. http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/10/10/ap3081218.html

Now he is, however he had a job for a while after it was found out that he was roiding.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 08:16 PM
justin gatlin-yeah, i forgot about him. that was in july. and dominique blake got nailed in june. track and field has a serious, serious problem.

which leads to an interesting question: how would you rank sports based on their ped problem?

i'm thinking it's something like this:

1 cycling
2 track and field
3 everybody else

Skin & Bones
10-23-2006, 08:17 PM
Probably has to do w/ public perception of football players ("they're warriors and it should be ok if they use steroids") & teh fact that baseball players are probably more known/personal to the average fan.

Who really knows. For some reason, steroids are the ONLY drugs out there that make baseball players " not pure ". Not Amphetamines, not creatine, not any of the many other PED'S out there that have been proven to be effective performance enhancers. It's just steroids. When some think of steroids, they think of Ivan Drago from Rocky 4 mutilating the Apollo. Apparently, they are the only PED that works, and it's a wink wink for football players, but totally immoral for baseball players. And especially immoral for Barry Bonds. Boy the outcry when Game of Shadows was written was unprecedented. Never seen before, and won't ever be seen again. Even if T.O. had a book written about him using steroids, we wouldn't see an outcry like that.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 08:28 PM
Oh really? Is the NFL drug policy effective? Does NFL have the power to make their policy more effective or just plain effective? Do they choose not too? The NFL makes boatloads of cash off the steroided backs of their players. Heck it is practically requirement nowadays to compete in the NFL to be taking something.

I personally love when draft day comes around and everybody is saying this guy needs to add 30 pounds of muscle or that guy needs to bulk up to compete in the NFL, and then poofda they do. Where do you think that bulk that muscle is coming from? Whoppers from burger king?

I'll take effective and consistant right now and they are looking to improve the policy as well. The is NFL is also looking to make their policy better.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/15680976.htm

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.dopingside08oct08,0,1217950.story?coll=bal-sports-football

And of course Football has a bigger problem in terms of Steroids given the nature of the sport, nobody is arguing that. The point I'm making is that MLB's lack of any action at all caused their steroid issue to get out of controll both on the feild and in the press where as football as at least put forth an effort to deal with the problem since the late 80's.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 08:35 PM
Who really knows. For some reason, steroids are the ONLY drugs out there that make baseball players " not pure ". Not Amphetamines, not creatine, not any of the many other PED'S out there that have been proven to be effective performance enhancers. It's just steroids. When some think of steroids, they think of Ivan Drago from Rocky 4 mutilating the Apollo. Apparently, they are the only PED that works, and it's a wink wink for football players, but totally immoral for baseball players. And especially immoral for Barry Bonds. Boy the outcry when Game of Shadows was written was unprecedented. Never seen before, and won't ever been seen again. Even if T.O. had a book written about him using steroids, we wouldn't see an outcry like that.

Your example is flawed. Football has a policy in place and baseball did not when Bonds was breaking records. If say, Tiki Barber broke the single season rushing record and was on his way to beating Emmit Smith's life time rushing record while allegedly roiding while the league twidled its thumbs with no testing then you could make an example. BTW the only thing T.O. and Bonds have in common is a public dislike for their persona's.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 08:43 PM
justin gatlin-yeah, i forgot about him. that was in july. and dominique blake got nailed in june. track and field has a serious, serious problem.

which leads to an interesting question: how would you rank sports based on their ped problem?

i'm thinking it's something like this:

1 cycling
2 track and field
3 everybody else

Pro bodybuilding would be my top choice.
I'd say next its a toss up between cycling and track and feild.

Skin & Bones
10-23-2006, 08:44 PM
Your example is flawed. Football has a policy in place and baseball did not when Bonds was breaking records. If say, Tiki Barber broke the single season rushing record and was on his way to beating Emmit Smith's life time rushing record while allegedly roiding while the league twidled its thumbs with no testing then you could make an example. BTW the only thing T.O. and Bonds have in common is a public dislike for their persona's.

I never said T.O. took illegal PED'S, I just pointed out the distinct difference when it comes to the outcry when a football player or baseball player is caught using steroids. T.O., as loathed as he is, IMO, if ever to be proven to have used illegal PED'S, wouldn't take all the heat Bonds does, and that has a lot to do with him playing in a sport where apparently drug cheating doesn't piss off the fans like it does in baseball.

Let me ask you this, how come nobody is calling for the six Carolina Panthers football players who used steroids ( in the superbowl, nonetheless) to have their numbers removed, or placed with an * ?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2563563

Where's the outcry, why isn't Jim Rome bashing them day after day ?

Comeon man, it's fricken obvious, drug cheating in football is widely accepted by the fans, where as in baseball, it's viewed as despicable behavior.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 08:47 PM
Pro bodybuilding would be my top choice.
I'd say next its a toss up between cycling and track and feild.

no doubt but i was thinking more along the lines of actual sports. :laugh i bet they have a serious ped problem in pro wrestling too. and those ultimate fighting things. but i don't count those.

Skin & Bones
10-23-2006, 08:50 PM
no doubt but i was thinking more along the lines of actual sports. :laugh i bet they have a serious ped problem in pro wrestling too. and those ultimate fighting things. but i don't count those.

Don't count out Boxing. I'm sure Ivan Drago wasn't the only one drugged up :waving

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 09:03 PM
Don't count out Boxing. I'm sure Ivan Drago wasn't the only one drugged up :waving

that's a really good point-i forgot about boxing. what's interesting is that you never hear anything-not a peep-about ped use in boxing. with the kind of shape those guys are in, with the speed and strength-you think it would come up. but i guess with all the other problems the sport has, it's in nobody's interest to bring it up. it's just another reason to have a national boxing commision.

and while i just said that it was in nobody's interest to bring it up-that's not true. it's in all the athlete's interests that this stuff be exposed and eliminated. nobody knows what kind of serious long term health problems this is going to bring. it does seem that a lot of nfl players-especially lineman-die young. heart attacks, cancer, that kind of stuff. it's ancedotal but it seems possible that this was caused by ped usage. and what about ken caminiti? i don't think the money is worth killing yourself over.

Skin & Bones
10-23-2006, 09:07 PM
that's a really good point-i forgot about boxing. what's interesting is that you never hear anything-not a peep-about ped use in boxing. with the kind of shape those guys are in, with the speed and strength-you think it would come up. but i guess with all the other problems the sport has, it's in nobody's interest to bring it up. it's just another reason to have a national boxing commision.

and while i just said that it was in nobody's interest to bring it up-that's not true. it's in all the athlete's interests that this stuff be exposed and eliminated. nobody knows what kind of serious long term health problems this is going to bring. it does seem that a lot of nfl players-especially lineman-die young. heart attacks, cancer, that kind of stuff. it's ancedotal but it seems possible that this was caused by ped usage. and what about ken caminiti? i don't think the money is worth killing yourself over.

A hell of a lot more killed Caminiti than steroids.

hubkittel
10-23-2006, 09:09 PM
A hell of a lot more killed Caminiti than steroids.

sad but true.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 09:17 PM
I never said T.O. took illegal PED'S, I just pointed out the distinct difference when it comes to the outcry when a football player or baseball player is caught using steroids. T.O., as loathed as he is, IMO, if ever to be proven to have used illegal PED'S, wouldn't take all the heat Bonds does, and that has a lot to do with him playing in a sport where apparently drug cheating doesn't piss off the fans like it does in baseball.

Let me ask you this, how come nobody is calling for the six Carolina Panthers football players who used steroids ( in the superbowl, nonetheless) to have their numbers removed, or placed with an * ?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2563563

Where's the outcry, why isn't Jim Rome bashing them day after day ?

Comeon man, it's fricken obvious, drug cheating in football is widely accepted by the fans, where as in baseball, it's viewed as dispicable behavior.

You made an example comparing a hypothetical situation with T.O. and what actually happened to Bonds which was flawed and I pointied out how a similar situation would have to unravel in the NFL with Tiki Barbar as the hypothetical offender... Find where I said you accused T. O. of doing steroids? You can't? Oh well.
BTW T.O. wouldn't take all the heat that Bonds did because in terms of Football he is no where as good historically as Bonds is. Thats incredibly obvious. :rolleyes:

Nobody is calling for Carolina to be asterixed because they LOST the superbowl in question LOL. I'll explain it to you again, Results + League indifference = Outrage. And the NFL is always trying to impove the testing and policy to prevent this type of thing from happening again.

Is Jim Rome your gold standard for whats right in sports? LOL Maybe you should raise your standards a bit to Gene Wojohowski or Skip Bayless?
:laugh :laugh :laugh

And IMO its not that fans believe that using PED's is acceptable in The NFL its that they think the NFL does enough to catch the offenders. If that is just good PR by the NFL or an actually effective policy is another subject.

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 09:20 PM
Don't count out Boxing. I'm sure Ivan Drago wasn't the only one drugged up :waving
Yes Combat sports have a huge problem with PED's

Boxing has had positive tests as well. Fernado Vargas and James Toney are two recent noteables. Boxing has bigger fish to fry however as its credibility is at an all time low and is bleeding fans who are increasingly going to MMA for their combat sports fix.

EvanAparra
10-23-2006, 09:23 PM
Every time there is a steroid thread I always know you two will be in it. :)

ESPNFan
10-23-2006, 09:30 PM
Every time there is a steroid thread I always know you two will be in it. :)

It's not an easy job but someone has to state the facts. :D

chrispw1
10-24-2006, 08:33 AM
I agree that people aren't as outarged about the NFL. Since 1989 they've suspended about 65 players for steroids. Now that would mean that in 17 years that less than 1% of players have used steroids which I doubt highly. I hear people rail on baseball all the time for not having HGH blood tests yet I never hear anyone ripping on the NFL for a lack of HGH blood testing. I mean Bill Romonowski wrote a book where he bragged about being able to beat the testing without very much outcry, imagine if years from now a prominent retired baseball player wrote a book about beating the testing and how much outrage there would be. Imagine of 4 or 5 members of a recent world series team were found to have gotten ilegal steroid perscriptions. I think one factor is in baseball the numbers are so important. With all these outcries for asterisks by Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, I don't recall any outcries for asterisks by Mark Gastineau's single sack record he held until 2001. Even casual fans know of 714, 755, 56, 2130 yet many die hard football fans don't know the exact number of Dan Marino's career touchdown pass record or Emmitt's career rushing yard or touchdown record. Also, I do feel the reason for the NFL getting a free pass somewhat is that over the last several years it ahs had much better pr all around with things such as labor peace, revenue sharing, parity, and other stuff.

ChrisLDuncan
10-24-2006, 11:04 AM
Also if you have noticed whether or not Kenny Rogers used pine tar is a bigger story than Merriman roiding up

Rookie1914
10-24-2006, 12:56 PM
Hello, great topic. I think America cherishes the history / recordbooks of baseball far greater than any other sport. With this being said, that is why we expose baseball players moreso than any other sport. Will there be an asterisk beside McGwire, Sosa, Bonds names in the books like there is for 1994? I doubt it, because nothing was "proven" even though you can look at them and know.

Also, football players are "supposed" to be huge and provide a certain level of entertainment, we expect hard hits etc. We turn our heads and really don't care too much, I say "we" meaning everyone, people that aren't as savvy as us in this forum. Someone 6'6" 250 lbs that runs a 4.3 40 is natural?

On the other hand, if you are exposed in baseball for being on the juice. All you have to do is semi-apologize like Giambi and you will be forgiven. America loves to forgive. That is why "we" hate Bonds, he denies everything. Fess up Bonds and it will be much easier.

mwiggins
10-24-2006, 01:50 PM
I mean the story is at the bottom of the front page on the football section of ESPN.com
http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/index?lpos=globalnav&lid=gn_NFL_NFL

If this was baseball, it would be on ESPN.com's front page not just the baseball part.

Merriman's story would have been the lead story on the front page of ESPN.com (it WAS at the top the of the main page yesterday, not just the football section) if the Kenny Rogers thing wouldn't have gone down. And it's not like he's been suspended, it was just an allegation from Mort.

And Merriman is not one of the NFL's biggest stars. He's one of the best players, sure, but in terms of baseball he's about the same level as Freddie Sanchez or Brandon Webb.

If it would have been a star skill position player on offense, it would have topped the Rogers deal. The difference with the NFL is that the players most likely to be using PEDs are lineman and defensive players, not the glamour positions. Whereas in baseball, the players most likely to be using them are power hitters and pitchers, which ARE glamour positions. MLB has had the best players of the last 25 years involved in PED allegations (Bonds & Clemens), along with superstars like Sosa and Giambi and McGwire. While none of the big NFL stars have so far been linked to PED's. The day a star QB, RB, or WR is involved, PED's in the NFL will become a huge issue with the media and fans.

mwiggins
10-24-2006, 01:52 PM
Also if you have noticed whether or not Kenny Rogers used pine tar is a bigger story than Merriman roiding up

Because it's the World Series. If the Merriman allegation would have came out the week before the Chargers were playing in the Super Bowl, it would be a bigger story than the Rogers deal has been.

ChrisLDuncan
10-24-2006, 01:54 PM
Merriman's story would have been the lead story on the front page of ESPN.com (it WAS at the top the of the main page yesterday, not just the football section) if the Kenny Rogers thing wouldn't have gone down. And it's not like he's been suspended, it was just an allegation from Mort.

And Merriman is not one of the NFL's biggest stars. He's one of the best players, sure, but in terms of baseball he's about the same level as Freddie Sanchez or Brandon Webb.

If it would have been a star skill position player on offense, it would have topped the Rogers deal. The difference with the NFL is that the players most likely to be using PEDs are lineman and defensive players, not the glamour positions. Whereas in baseball, the players most likely to be using them are power hitters and pitchers, which ARE glamour positions. MLB has had the best players of the last 25 years involved in PED allegations (Bonds & Clemens), along with superstars like Sosa and Giambi and McGwire. While none of the big NFL stars have so far been linked to PED's. The day a star QB, RB, or WR is involved, PED's in the NFL will become a huge issue with the media and fans.

Actually he was suspended for four games. Plus Merriman is a big star in football people who watch football know who he is he was the Def RoY last season may have even been the defensive PoY this season. Plus I'd put Merriman on the Ryan Howard level.

ChrisLDuncan
10-24-2006, 01:55 PM
Because it's the World Series. If the Merriman allegation would have came out the week before the Chargers were playing in the Super Bowl, it would be a bigger story than the Rogers deal has been.

Well it was one inning too, I mean MSN even had a front page story about baseball cheats A DAY AFTER AN NFL STAR TESTED POSITIVE FOR STEROIDS. All I'm saying is that baseball gets the shaft when it comes to cheating, I guess that is the thesis of what I'm trying to say. I mean so now is there going to be an astrisk on the 2005-2006 Def RoY? I mean there are other players in the NFL that roid up besides Merriman and most of them are huge and bulkly, so it's not like there shouldn't be suspisicon. Football also has the built in luxuary that most of it's stars are skill players, the non-skill position skill guys that I can think of are Ray Lewis, Deion Sanders, and LT, and steroids isn't going to help a QB read a defense, nor will it help a guy thread a ball between two cornerbacks. Roids will give an RB extra power and a little bit of speed, but it won't help his vision or help him make cuts. Roids won't help a WR get better hands. So with those players there isn't as much of an incentive to roid up. But the guys in the trenches the LBs, they don't get any face time (well Sapp did for a bid but that's besides the point) and there is incentive for them to juice up...but since they are largely faceless they aren't as big of stars.

mwiggins
10-24-2006, 02:16 PM
:D
Actually he was suspended for four games. Plus Merriman is a big star in football people who watch football know who he is he was the Def RoY last season may have even been the defensive PoY this season. Plus I'd put Merriman on the Ryan Howard level.

Yeah, he's a big star to hardcore football people, but not the casual football fan. Ryan Howard's an offensive star who puts up big numbers, even non-baseball fans know who he is after this season. Steve Smith and Chad Johnson are more on the Ryan Howard level, but he's probably closer to a Shawn Alexander.

When Bonds and Clemens and Giambi were involved in PED allegations, those were huge media stories. If equivalent football players, say Vick, Manning or Brady were involved in PED allegations, those would be huge media stories as well.

mwiggins
10-24-2006, 02:24 PM
Football also has the built in luxuary that most of it's stars are skill players, the non-skill position skill guys that I can think of are Ray Lewis, Deion Sanders, and LT, and steroids isn't going to help a QB read a defense, nor will it help a guy thread a ball between two cornerbacks. Roids will give an RB extra power and a little bit of speed, but it won't help his vision or help him make cuts. Roids won't help a WR get better hands. So with those players there isn't as much of an incentive to roid up. But the guys in the trenches the LBs, they don't get any face time (well Sapp did for a bid but that's besides the point) and there is incentive for them to juice up...but since they are largely faceless they aren't as big of stars.

I agree totally. Most of the football PED users are going to be the 'faceless' offensive lineman and defensive players. Fans aren't going to get as upset about guys like that. If it was just middle relievers and light-hitting middle infielders getting busted and linked to PED's, nobody would be that wound up about baseballs roid problem either.

RB's COULD benefit the same way as home run hitters, but with sluggers, it's easy to see their HR totals go up. With RB's, their stats are so dependent on line play and how they're used, that when a guy like Curtis Martin has a big year late in his career, you don't instantly look at his stats and think "he must be on roids'.

Skin & Bones
10-24-2006, 02:27 PM
I agree totally. Most of the football PED users are going to be the 'faceless' offensive lineman and defensive players. Fans aren't going to get as upset about guys like that. If it was just middle relievers and light-hitting middle infielders getting busted and linked to PED's, nobody would be that wound up about baseballs roid problem either.

RB's COULD benefit the same way as home run hitters, but with sluggers, it's easy to see their HR totals go up. With RB's, their stats are so dependent on line play and how they're used, that when a guy like Curtis Martin has a big year late in his career, you don't instantly look at his stats and think "he must be on roids'.

Mwiggins, the biggest benefit of steroids is faster recovery from workouts and injuries. So that alone could benefit any football player, or athlete for that matter.

ChrisLDuncan
10-24-2006, 02:32 PM
:D

Yeah, he's a big star to hardcore football people, but not the casual football fan. Ryan Howard's an offensive star who puts up big numbers, even non-baseball fans know who he is after this season. Steve Smith and Chad Johnson are more on the Ryan Howard level, but he's probably closer to a Shawn Alexander.

When Bonds and Clemens and Giambi were involved in PED allegations, those were huge media stories. If equivalent football players, say Vick, Manning or Brady were involved in PED allegations, those would be huge media stories as well.

Well I guess the Ryan Howard comparison for me was after winning the RoY and Merriman was on his way to having a huge season he allready had 5.5 sacks in only what? six or seven games. So I mean that's a pretty big season...if he had that I think he could find his way into the mainstream.

Rookie1914
10-24-2006, 02:56 PM
Rogers is a big deal as he is in the World Series, whereas Merriman is in the first half of his season. I think "Wiggins" brought up that point. I can't believe I overlooked that point :D

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 06:19 PM
Rogers is a big deal as he is in the World Series, whereas Merriman is in the first half of his season. I think "Wiggins" brought up that point. I can't believe I overlooked that point :D

Yes and the sports themselves are very different, a pitcher or hitter can essentially cheat in a vacum during a baseball game, while a football player still has 11 players to deal with and 10 teammates that need to execute as well.

Skin & Bones
10-24-2006, 06:33 PM
Yes and the sports themselves are very different, a pitcher or hitter can essentially cheat in a vacum during a baseball game, while a football player still has 11 players to deal with and 10 teammates that need to execute as well.

But the ones who are cheating are getting a " huge " unfair advantage, right ?

Remember, football's testing policy is GREAT!!! <Tony the Tiger Voice>, and baseball's sucks, despite what a professional ballplayer on this site says.

So, if what you say is true, then it should indicate that most players and pitchers should take advantage of the supposed " weak " testing by taking all sorts of drugs, where as in football, they would think twice about it. So the few who are doing it, are getting the unfair advantage over their peers, right ESPNFan ? :cool:

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 06:58 PM
But the ones who are cheating are getting a " huge " unfair advantage, right ?

Remember, football's testing policy is GREAT!!! <Tony the Tiger Voice>, and baseball's sucks, despite what a professional ballplayer on this site says.

So, if what you say is true, then it should indicate that most players and pitchers should take advantage of the supposed " weak " testing by taking all sorts of drugs, where as in football, they would think twice about it. So the few who are doing it, are getting the unfair advantage over their peers, right ESPNFan ? :cool:

Do you even understand what I wrote? LOL

Where did I mention anything about testing in the post you quoted?

My point was simply related to the nature of each sport. If say David Ortiz wants to do roids he can and aside from the pitcher throwing to him nobody can influence his performance once that ball is on its way to the plate. If Edgerrin James wants to use PED's not only does he have to deal with 11 guys trying to defend/tackle him but if his line is awful he won't have a whole to hit or if his QB is awful he'll have 8 or even 9 guys in the Box defending him. That goes double for wide outs.

Football's testing Policy isn't great, its not WADA level, but they have shown for almost 20 years a willingness to tackle the subject and make changes when needed, something baseball has not done. People in football obviously don't think twice about trying to cheat because they are still gettign caught.
But don't let that stop a good rant right?

Oh and last time I checked a certain ballplayer didn't want you mentioning him any more did he?

Skin & Bones
10-24-2006, 07:05 PM
Do you even understand what I wrote? LOL

Where did I mention anything about testing in the post you quoted?

My point was simply related to the nature of each sport. If say David Ortiz wants to do roids he can and aside from the pitcher throwing to him nobody can influence his performance once that ball is on its way to the plate. If Edgerrin James wants to use PED's not only does he have to deal with 11 guys trying to defend/tackle him but if his line is awful he won't have a whole to hit or if his QB is awful he'll have 8 or even 9 guys in the Box defending him. That goes double for wide outs.

Football's testing Policy isn't great, its not WADA level, but they have shown for almost 20 years a willingness to tackle the subject and make changes when needed, something baseball has not done. People in football obviously don't think twice about trying to cheat because they are still gettign caught.
But don't let that stop a good rant right?

Oh and last time I checked a certain ballplayer didn't want you mentioning him any more did he?

I read exactly what you said, and I presented you with a logical scenario based on your line of reasoning.

According to you, NFL has a better testing policy than MLB, you've repeatedly defended it, while calling MLB'S a " joke ".

If MLB'S is a joke, then it's safe to say ( assuming Caminiti and Canseco's percentages were correct) that most ballplayers/pitchers today are still juicing, where as in the NFL, most wouldn't, because according to you, NFL'S testing policy is legitimate. So the ones who are cheating, are REALLY getting the unfair advantage over everyone else on the field.

After all, here's what you said:
People in football obviously don't think twice about trying to cheat because they are still gettign caught.

So if the majority don't want to get caught, the ones who are using the drugs, are really getting the unfair advantage over their peers.

Oh and last time I checked a certain ballplayer didn't want you mentioning him any more did he

Actually, from the conversation I had with him, he didn't want me linking his posts about MLB's steroid testing policy on other forums. Which I did On one Florida Marlins forum, which somehow, someone on this very site knew about it. Oh what a mystery that is:laugh

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 07:53 PM
I read exactly what you said, and I presented you with a logical scenario based on your line of reasoning.

According to you, NFL has a better testing policy than MLB, you've repeatedly defended it, while calling MLB'S a " joke ".

If MLB'S is a joke, then it's safe to say ( assuming Caminiti and Canseco's percentages were correct) that most ballplayers/pitchers today are still juicing, where as in the NFL, most wouldn't, because according to you, NFL'S testing policy is legitimate. So the ones who are cheating, are REALLY getting the unfair advantage over everyone else on the field.

After all, here's what you said:

So if the majority don't want to get caught, the ones who are using the drugs, are really getting the unfair advantage over their peers.

Oh and last time I checked a certain ballplayer didn't want you mentioning him any more did he

Actually, from the conversation I had with him, he didn't want me linking his posts about MLB's steroid testing policy on other forums. Which I did On one Florida Marlins forum, which somehow, someone on this very site knew about it. Oh what a mystery that is:laugh

When Congress has to inform everyone of a backdoor clause that allows the commisioner to fine someone instead of suspending a person yes thats a joke. MLB had to collectively bargain for testing and have "informational testing which at least 5-7% of the league failed, when it should have been a given. MLB's testing has gotten better in terms of punishment and so forth but I haven't seen any iron clad specifics about the substances they test for, what levels of testosterone constitutes a positive, improving the tests or HGH aside from the supposed research project which i can tell you professionally is infact a 100% Joke. Whats Major League baseballs policy on a missed test? Do you know? Is it an automatic positive?

Track and feild and the Olympics still have people trying to cheat, Kellie White a Balco client, was cheating and didn't test positive even though she was randomly tested 17 times over the course of a year. Is their testing a joke? The NFL has been lauded by WADA and Gary Wadler as the best in American sports but still not perfect. Its not about being perfect because no body can be in testing as the testers are always playing catch up. But when a league like MLB needs to be practically dragged kicking and screaming to test their players even as their most sacred records in the game's history are threatened by supposed cheaters yes I call that as a Joke.

And its quite a coincidence that a poster named Cyril Oreily posted the very same links on the ESPN website that you admitted to posting on the Marlins one at the same time. Hmmmm Cyril Oreily ...now where Have I heard that name before around here......:rolleyes:

Skin & Bones
10-24-2006, 09:10 PM
When Congress has to inform everyone of a backdoor clause that allows the commisioner to fine someone instead of suspending a person yes thats a joke. MLB had to collectively bargain for testing and have "informational testing which at least 5-7% of the league failed, when it should have been a given. MLB's testing has gotten better in terms of punishment and so forth but I haven't seen any iron clad specifics about the substances they test for, what levels of testosterone constitutes a positive, improving the tests or HGH aside from the supposed research project which i can tell you professionally is infact a 100% Joke. Whats Major League baseballs policy on a missed test? Do you know? Is it an automatic positive?


Track and feild and the Olympics still have people trying to cheat, Kellie White a Balco client, was cheating and didn't test positive even though she was randomly tested 17 times over the course of a year. Is their testing a joke? The NFL has been lauded by WADA and Gary Wadler as the best in American sports but still not perfect. Its not about being perfect because no body can be in testing as the testers are always playing catch up. But when a league like MLB needs to be practically dragged kicking and screaming to test their players even as their most sacred records in the game's history are threatened by supposed cheaters yes I call that as a Joke.

Alright, that's your opinion, and your entitled to it. While I agree that Baseball ignored it's steroids/amphetamines problem, I disagree that the current testing ( atleast for steroids) is a joke. I do agree however, that the drug cheats will always be one step ahead of the testing.






And its quite a coincidence that a poster named Cyril Oreily posted the very same links on the ESPN website that you admitted to posting on the Marlins one at the same time. Hmmmm Cyril Oreily ...now where Have I heard that name before around here......:rolleyes:

I don't know what a " Cyril Oreily " is, nor do I care to know. I sometimes post on the Florida Marlins Forum on MLB.COM. I had an arguement with a poster about MLB'S steroid testing policy, and posted ONE link to Hiddengem's post there. That's it. He told me not to do it, so I stopped, I respect people's wishes. Anything else I have nothing to do with, or have any knowledge of.

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 09:24 PM
I don't get the logic of saying that MLB testing is a joke but the NLF's should be applauded.

Do you or do you not think NFL players are using drugs? How many do you think are using? Do you or do you not think MLB players are using drugs? How many do you think are using?

To me I think a great many NFL players are using drugs. I think at the very least the NFL and MLB have the same % of people using drugs. They both have huge problems when it comes to drugs. Yet the NFL has had a drug testing policy in place for a very long time, and yet the NFL has just as bad a problem as baseball does.

I don't see how one can look at the NFL drug testing system and not think it is a joke. It is like looking at prohibition and declaring it is working because some copper smashed a few kegs now and then. The purpose of a drug testing system is two-fold, actually it is three fold. It is 1)A PR good face, 2) catch and punish rule breakers, and 3)to inhibit drug use. The NFL system does the first thing wonderfully, it completely and utterly fails at the second two parts.

The NFL drug testing system is a joke.

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 09:28 PM
I don't know what a " Cyril Oreily " is, nor do I care to know.

I' sure you don't :waving

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 09:43 PM
I don't get the logic of saying that MLB testing is a joke but the NLF's should be applauded.

Do you or do you not think NFL players are using drugs? How many do you think are using? Do you or do you not think MLB players are using drugs? How many do you think are using?

To me I think a great many NFL players are using drugs. I think at the very least the NFL and MLB have the same % of people using drugs. They both have huge problems when it comes to drugs. Yet the NFL has had a drug testing policy in place for a very long time, and yet the NFL has just as bad a problem as baseball does.

I don't see how one can look at the NFL drug testing system and not think it is a joke. It is like looking at prohibition and declaring it is working because some copper smashed a few kegs now and then. The purpose of a drug testing system is two-fold, actually it is three fold. It is 1)A PR good face, 2) catch and punish rule breakers, and 3)to inhibit drug use. The NFL system does the first thing wonderfully, it completely and utterly fails at the second two parts.

The NFL drug testing system is a joke.

I think MLB testing is substandard because there is minimal random testing and no guarentee of an off season test (not a preseason test). I think its substantandard because I have yet to find someone or something willing to go on the record about what punishment a missed test garners. I am sceptical of anything Bud Selig is invovled with because of the way pervious drug policys were worded and their clauses that would have allowed positive tests to be covered up.

Of course the NFL has a drug problem, any sport dealing with size as an asset will have to admit that Anabolics will be an issue. Did they do something to address the issue? Yes they did at a time when the US Government was doign the same. How long did MLB wait till after Steroids were made Illegal?
Does the NFL have people questioning the validity of a whole era's worth of statistics? Nope. Game Set Match NFL.

WADA thinks the NFL has the best testing of any of the major american pro sports. They do catch people, as the three in the last week atest to, so your observations on number 2) catching and punishing rule breakers as utter an utter failure rings hollow. As far as inhibiting use, thats a constant battle for even track and feild and they have the best testing available. The bottom line is the MLB has failed at all three of your listed purposes and if you think the NFL testing is a joke where does that leave MLB?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 09:53 PM
Again is the NFl actually accomplishing anything besides getting patted on the back? This isn't about which is better NFL or MLB, it is about who is actually getting anything done. Neither league is getting anything done, and neither league wants too either. You honestly think the NFL thinks that no one or only a small % of players are users? Do you honestly believe that the NFL actually cares whether or not their players are using drugs? Actually I do think they care, they obviously care. I think right now through contracts, through roster spots on teams they are actively encouraging players to use drugs. Do you honestly believe that if somebody went up to a coach and said oh by the way #55 is using drugs they would be surprised? The NLF unlike the MLB has vastly more power to enact tougher and more stringent standards. They do not.

So the NFL catches players, guess what so does Baseball. Like I said this is just like Prohibtion. Hey look it works because we just found a still in the woods and smashed it up.

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 10:27 PM
Again is the NFl actually accomplishing anything besides getting patted on the back? This isn't about which is better NFL or MLB, it is about who is actually getting anything done. Neither league is getting anything done, and neither league wants too either. You honestly think the NFL thinks that no one or only a small % of players are users? Do you honestly believe that the NFL actually cares whether or not their players are using drugs? Actually I do think they care, they obviously care. I think right now through contracts, through roster spots on teams they are actively encouraging players to use drugs. Do you honestly believe that if somebody went up to a coach and said oh by the way #55 is using drugs they would be surprised? The NLF unlike the MLB has vastly more power to enact tougher and more stringent standards. They do not.

So the NFL catches players, guess what so does Baseball. Like I said this is just like Prohibtion. Hey look it works because we just found a still in the woods and smashed it up.

So if you think the NFL is a Joke and use a Prohibition refrence to make the point that catching people doesn't matter, would you use a keystone cops refrence to describe an MLB testing program who, unless I'm mistaken and I could be, caught nobody on the MLB level?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 10:33 PM
So you want to upgrade MLB testing to a joke? That is your solution to the problem? "Baseballs system doesn't work, footballs system doesn't work. But hey people say nice things about so lets use theirs"

Palmeiro wasn't suspended?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 10:37 PM
Alex Sanchez
Jorge Piedra
Juan Rincon
Rafael Betancourt
Ryan Franklin
Michael Morse
Felix Heredia
Matt Lawton

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 10:43 PM
So you want to upgrade MLB testing to a joke? That is your solution to the problem? "Baseballs system doesn't work, footballs system doesn't work. But hey people say nice things about so lets use theirs"

Palmeiro wasn't suspended?

In 2005 Palmeiro was suspended. In 2006 the only MLB level player I heard of was Grimsley and he wasn't caught by testing.

Look if you want to think the NFL has a joke for a testing policy thats fine that your opinion. But its still better than MLB's in the opinion of professionals, not just my own. I'd want to upgrade to simply a joke if my leagues most recent efforts had been a laughing stock.

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 10:44 PM
Alex Sanchez
Jorge Piedra
Juan Rincon
Rafael Betancourt
Ryan Franklin
Michael Morse
Felix Heredia
Matt Lawton

Again those are names from 2005, who was suspended for a positive test this past season?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 10:55 PM
So the NFL systems works because they got 3 guys this year and baseball hasn't gotten anybody from the majors yet have snagged 16 minor leaguers and one guy coming over from Japan so far?

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:03 PM
So the NFL systems works because they got 3 guys this year and baseball hasn't gotten anybody from the majors yet have snagged 16 minor leaguers and one guy coming over from Japan so far?

You said yourself the NFL and MLB have in your opinion the same number of people using PED's. Why hasn't MLB caught anyone in the past season then?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:07 PM
You said yourself the NFL and MLB have in your opinion the same number of people using PED's. Why hasn't MLB caught anyone in the past season then?


Perhaps baseball players are not as dumb as football players?


The only reason these football players got caught is because they slipped up somewhere. Congratulations you got a system that catches the dumbest 1% of rule breakers.

Let us say that MLB does adopt the football system, so what happens? Well MLB pats themselves on the back, acts like the problem is solved, a player here or there gets caught, and nothing really changes. So that is what you want? Because that is what will happen, because that is what is happening in football right now and has been happening for a very long time.

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:23 PM
Perhaps baseball players are not as dumb as football players?


The only reason these football players got caught is because they slipped up somewhere. Congratulations you got a system that catches the dumbest 1% of rule breakers.

Let us say that MLB does adopt the football system, so what happens? Well MLB pats themselves on the back, acts like the problem is solved, a player here or there gets caught, and nothing really changes. So that is what you want? Because that is what will happen, because that is what is happening in football right now and has been happening for a very long time.

Since when has football acted like the problem is solved? Just this last month Roger Goodell the new commssioner meet with Gene Upshaw to discuss imporving the current policy. but I'm sure you will just call that PR again right? So to summerize the NFL is all about PR but it has also caught more people in the last 12 months than MLB but that only means football players are dumber than baseball players. Or maybe footballs leadership is smarter than baseballs? Oh wait we already know thats completely true. ;)

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:35 PM
Again how many football players do you think are on drugs? Do you think the NFL drug testing policy deters drug use in the NFL? How long has the NFL had a drug testing policy? What have been the changes to that policy? Has drug use in the NFL become more common? Has it become more sophisticated and more effective?

But yes kudos to the NFL for being applauded on their system, the system certainly has done a lot to change the drug culture in the NFL.


So to summerize the NFL is all about PR but it has also caught more people in the last 12 months than MLB but that only means football players are dumber than baseball players.

Major league baseball has caught 17 players this year, and over 100 players overall in the last 2 years.

How many players has football caught in the last 2 years?

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:42 PM
Again how many football players do you think are on drugs? Do you think the NFL drug testing policy deters drug use in the NFL? How long has the NFL had a drug testing policy? What have been the changes to that policy? Has drug use in the NFL become more common? Has it become more sophisticated and more effective?

But yes kudos to the NFL for being applauded on their system, the system certainly has done a lot to change the drug culture in the NFL.



Major league baseball has caught 17 players this year, and over 100 players overall in the last 2 years.

How many players has football caught in the last 2 years?

Please tell me who was caught on the MLB level during the 2006 season?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:44 PM
One other thing those Panther guys you mentioned above they didn't get caught because they tested positive. They got caught because of a government raid of a doctors lab. The NFL didn't catch them, yet the records showed that some of those guys were using throughout the season.

Since 1989 I believe a grand total of 113 players have been caught and suspended for steroid use in the NFL. Though that was as of two seasons ago. Baseball in two years has suspended I believe 118 players.

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:45 PM
One other thing those Panther guys you mentioned above they didn't get caught because they tested positive. They got caught because of a government raid of a doctors lab. The NFL didn't catch them, yet the records showed that some of those guys were using throughout the season.

Since 1989 I believe a grand total of 113 players have been caught and suspended for steroid use in the NFL. Though that was as of two seasons ago. Baseball in two years has suspended I believe 118 players.

Football doesn't have a minor league to pad its figures.

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:46 PM
Please tell me who was caught on the MLB level during the 2006 season?

Please tell me how many the NFL caught last year and who were they?

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:50 PM
Please tell me how many the NFL caught last year and who were they?
So you cant find anyone suspened in 2006 for baseball eh?

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:50 PM
Well you got 3rd stringer Rick Razzano who is basically is a NLF version of a minor leaguer.

John Welbourn and . . .

So does that mean that Baseball had a better policy in 2005 then the NFL's?

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:52 PM
Well you got 3rd stringer Rick Razzano who is basically is a NLF version of a minor leaguer.

John Welbourn and . . .

So does that mean that Baseball had a better policy in 2005 then the NFL's?

The NFL suspended a similar number of players in its first years of testing.

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:53 PM
So you cant find anyone suspened in 2006 for baseball eh?


What is your point? Football found 3 NFL players. Hey I guess that means it is working. Yet last year MLB found more major leaugers using then NFl did. Hey I guess that means the MLB system is working. MLB in two years has found the same amount as NFL has, yet it has taken the NFL 17 years to catch all of their guys.

Ubiquitous
10-24-2006, 11:54 PM
The NFL suspended a similar number of players in its first years of testing.


So out of all the players in the NFL in 2005 only some third string fullback and a linemen were using drugs?


the Panthers proved that wasn't true, yet the NFL didn't catch the panthers.


And what does that say about the policy? The first year catches people by surprise and then they adjust and make the policy a joke. Is that what that means?

ESPNFan
10-24-2006, 11:57 PM
What is your point? Football found 3 NFL players. Hey I guess that means it is working. Yet last year MLB found more major leaugers using then NFl did. Hey I guess that means the MLB system is working. MLB in two years has found the same amount as NFL has, yet it has taken the NFL 17 years to catch all of their guys.

Rickey Williams was also banned and so was Todd Saurbraun. And In the NFL ampetamines/stimulants get a 4 game ban for the first offense, in baseball they do not.

Ubiquitous
10-25-2006, 12:05 AM
Williams got caught for smoking marijuana. Is Marijuana a steroid?


Todd was caught during the Panthers sting in 2005 by the government raid on a doctor. If you get to include Todd for 2005 then I get to include Grimsley in 2006.

Ubiquitous
10-25-2006, 12:11 AM
I take it you are talking about Todd this year in camp with the ephedra.

So we got 1 stimulant catch to 0 so far MLB.

NFL takes the lead.

ESPNFan
10-25-2006, 12:13 AM
Williams got caught for smoking marijuana. Is Marijuana a steroid?


Todd was caught during the Panthers sting in 2005 by the government raid on a doctor. If you get to include Todd for 2005 then I get to include Grimsley in 2006.

Nevermind you looked it up.

And if you look into Williams most recent suspension he was docked for a drug other than pot.

chrispw1
10-25-2006, 07:01 AM
Like I said eralier, I find it funny how people rip on baseball for lack of HGH blood tests and noone says anything about the NFL. The NFL has had better pr all around which is a factor. Also, I saw an article on espn page 2 a year or so ago that talked about how 70s and 80s records are likely tainted by steroid use like Eric Dickerson's rushing record which even if he wasn't using some of his linemen blocking and opening holes for him may have been.

ESPNFan
10-25-2006, 09:01 AM
Like I said eralier, I find it funny how people rip on baseball for lack of HGH blood tests and noone says anything about the NFL. The NFL has had better pr all around which is a factor. Also, I saw an article on espn page 2 a year or so ago that talked about how 70s and 80s records are likely tainted by steroid use like Eric Dickerson's rushing record which even if he wasn't using some of his linemen blocking and opening holes for him may have been.

First on the HGH question, players unions in both sports are opposed to Blood testing. Of the two leagues which one do you think is more likely to get blood testing if it wants it? The NFL hands down.
And at least the NFL isn't trying to sell us some utterly unbelieveable snake oil story about researching a urine based test. Thats not PR, thats insulting your fans intelligence.

Bench 5
10-25-2006, 12:09 PM
I think that one of the biggest reason why people are more upset about steroid use in baseball is because it's one of the only sports where Moms and Dads actually think that there kid has a shot to play in the majors some day. It's perceived as a game of skill rather than brawn. Most major leaguers are bigger than the average Joe, but there are plenty of average size guys and small guys that are good players. You don't need to be 6'6" 275 to play major league baseball.

I think that football has done a better job of tackling the issue from a PR perspective than baseball. And they did it much sooner. However, I tend to agree with Ubi that a much much higher percent of NFL players use steroids than the numbers would suggest based upon the % caught. Players from the late 70's through the 80's were about the same height on average as players today and they hit the weightrooms religiously. You rarely saw a player over 300. Now every team has a dozen guys over 300 and without a noticeable lack of speed. Just about every position is bulkier than they were 20 years ago. There are probably a ton of "Romanowski's" in the league that have figured out a way to beat the system.

I can see 5 to 10 years from now that baseball will be in the same boat as the NFL is now. Once the steroid policy has the appearance of strength in the public eye, people will tend to ignore the issue and won't be shocked when a few players get caught every year. For both sports I think the reality it that a sizeable % of players will still find a way to skirt the system. It's as much a part of the game as hotdogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet.

Bench 5
10-25-2006, 12:18 PM
Don't count out Boxing. I'm sure Ivan Drago wasn't the only one drugged up :waving

Same for some of the fighters from the UFC and Pride.

Drago might not have been the only one drugged up from Rocky IV either!! Rumors were rampant in the early 80's that Sly Stallone started using steroids sometime after Rocky II. His body did make a metamorphisis from the early movies to the later ones.

I won't even mention Hulk Hogan from Rocky III. :dance

Skin & Bones
10-25-2006, 02:22 PM
Same for some of the fighters from the UFC and Pride.

Drago might not have been the only one drugged up from Rocky IV either!! Rumors were rampant in the early 80's that Sly Stallone started using steroids sometime after Rocky II. His body did make a metamorphisis from the early movies to the later ones.

I won't even mention Hulk Hogan from Rocky III. :dance

I meant Drago the character in Rocky 4, I don't know if Dolph Lundgren himself ever took anabolic steroids.

As for stallone, yes there was rumors, and only rumors, the gain he seen is certainly reasonable with the workout routine he had. And for Rocky 3, he actually had to lose weigh, because in that one, he specifically trained for speed and agility in the movie to defeat Clubber Lang.

Now he did have a very impressive physique in Rambo 2, which he claims was due to a crazy workout regimen he had at the time. He has it posted on his website.


MONDAY/WEDNESDAY/FRIDAY
Morning: Chest, back, abs
Afternoon: Shoulders, arms, abs

TUESDAY/THURSDAY/SATURDAY
Morning: Calves, thighs
Afternoon: Rear delts, traps, abs

http://www.sylvesterstallone.com/

As for Hulk Hogan, LOL, well he's a given.

Ubiquitous
10-25-2006, 02:28 PM
It would not surpise me at all to find out that hollywood has a huge steroid problem. Or I should say that a lot of actors are using them, since I doubt they think it is a problem.

ESPNFan
10-25-2006, 02:35 PM
Same for some of the fighters from the UFC and Pride.

Drago might not have been the only one drugged up from Rocky IV either!! Rumors were rampant in the early 80's that Sly Stallone started using steroids sometime after Rocky II. His body did make a metamorphisis from the early movies to the later ones.

I won't even mention Hulk Hogan from Rocky III. :dance

The UFC just had Stephan Bonner form their TUF show fail a test and Former Heaveyweight Champ Tim Sylvia also failed a test. As far as Pride and K1 go I'm not aware of their specific rules but Bob Sapp would be the first person on my list to pee int he cup. :laugh

Bench 5
10-25-2006, 03:04 PM
The UFC just had Stephan Bonner form their TUF show fail a test and Former Heaveyweight Champ Tim Sylvia also failed a test. As far as Pride and K1 go I'm not aware of their specific rules but Bob Sapp would be the first person on my list to pee int he cup. :laugh

There was a movie on HBO about 4-5 years ago on former champ Mark Kerr and he admitted having a serious steroid problem. Half the movie was about the impact this had on his relationship with his girlfiend and his bad mood swings. The movie was very good. Like boxing and the NFL, I am sure that for everyone they catch, there's a bunch more that they don't catch.

Rookie1914
10-25-2006, 03:13 PM
The big thing in Hollywood is HGH or Human Growth Horomone. It also helps keep you looking young for a long time. What ever happened to taking care of your body the natural way?

Skin & Bones
10-25-2006, 03:28 PM
The big thing in Hollywood is HGH or Human Growth Horomone. It also helps keep you looking young for a long time. What ever happened to taking care of your body the natural way?

Guess it depends what you define as " natural ".

Rookie1914
10-25-2006, 03:37 PM
Guess it depends what you define as " natural ".

- No plastic surgery
- No steroids

- Go on walks, go to the gym, ride a bike, lay off the soda and chips, lay of the 3rd and 4th helpings :coffee

Mattingly
10-25-2006, 03:38 PM
Moving from Current Events to Between Innings.