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Gee Walker
08-02-2007, 08:59 AM
This morning I was wondering who was the meanest, nastiest headhunter in baseball history. Today, Julian Tavarez has that rep. My generation gave the award to either Don Drysdale or Bob Gibson. Earlier folks would have mentioned Early Wynn, and the tragic case of Ray Chapman has always been the main, but not only, case against Carl Mays.

I set up a little spreadsheet based upon the raw data of the top 100 HBP numbers in baseball history. As expected, the raw numbers feature mostly pitchers who threw a lot of innings, with an overly large proportion of knuckleballers and wild men. So I normalized the stats to HBP/9innings pitched and got a list of the guys who were the leaders in this dubious genre.

NAME HBP IP HBP/9IP
Ed Doheny* 132 1392.7 0.853
Cy Seymour* 84 1029 0.735
Jack Warhop 114 1412.7 0.726
Jamey Wright 117 1503 0.701
Chan Ho Park 126 1750.7 0.648
Julian Tavarez 90 1286 0.630
Jeff Weaver 113 1652 0.616
Matt Clement 94 1412.7 0.599
Cy Morgan 95 1445.3 0.592
Tommy Byrne* 85 1362 0.562
Willie Sudhoff 126 2086.3 0.544
Ed Willett 106 1773.3 0.538
Tim Wakefield 150 2563.3 0.527
Harry McIntire 96 1650 0.524
Jakie May* 88 1562.3 0.507
Barney Pelty 107 1908 0.505
Darryl Kile 117 2165.3 0.486
Nixey Callahan 86 1603 0.483
Joe McGinnity+ 182 3441.3 0.476
Chick Fraser 177 3356 0.475
Aaron Sele 111 2137 0.467
Pedro Astacio 111 2196.7 0.455
Al Leiter* 117 2391 0.440
Pedro Martinez 129 2645.7 0.439
Howard Ehmke 137 2820.7 0.437
Bill Duggleby 84 1741 0.434
Jesse Tannehill* 130 2750.3 0.425
Randy Johnson* 182 3855.3 0.425
Togie Pittinger 96 2040.7 0.423
Lefty Leifield* 85 1838 0.416
Don Cardwell 98 2122.7 0.416
Charlie Hough 174 3801.3 0.412
Don Drysdale+ 154 3432 0.404
Frank Lary 97 2162.3 0.404
Dave Stieb 129 2895.3 0.401
Jack Billingham 98 2230.7 0.395
Scott Erickson 103 2360.7 0.393
Jeff Pfeffer 105 2407.3 0.393
Eddie Plank+* 196 4495.7 0.392
Kevin Brown 139 3256.3 0.384
Jim Lonborg 105 2464.3 0.383
Jim Bunning+ 160 3760.3 0.383
Mike Boddicker 87 2123.7 0.369
Ed Reulbach 107 2632.3 0.366
Rube Waddell+* 117 2961.3 0.356
Tom Hughes 104 2644 0.354
Vic Willis+ 157 3996 0.354
Doc White* 119 3041 0.352
Jack Chesbro+ 113 2896.7 0.351
Earl Moore 106 2776 0.344
Kenny Rogers* 118 3098.7 0.343
Jack Coombs 88 2320 0.341
Harry Howell 97 2567.7 0.340
Rube Benton* 95 2517.3 0.340
Tully Sparks 88 2335.7 0.339
Orel Hershiser 117 3130.3 0.336
Win Mercer 92 2470.3 0.335
David Cone 106 2898.7 0.329
George Uhle 113 3119.7 0.326
Hooks Dauss 121 3390.7 0.321
George Mullin 131 3686.7 0.320
Jack Taylor 92 2617 0.316
Joe Coleman 90 2569.3 0.315
Walter Johnson+ 203 5914.7 0.309
Red Donahue 101 2966.3 0.306
John Burkett 90 2648.3 0.306
Sam Leever 90 2660.7 0.304
Chief Bender+ 102 3017 0.304
Jamie Moyer* 117 3488.7 0.302
Pink Hawley 98 3012.7 0.293
Roger Clemens 155 4882 0.286
Tom Candiotti 85 2725 0.281
Bert Blyleven 155 4970 0.281
Hippo Vaughn* 85 2730 0.280
Frank Tanana* 129 4188.3 0.277
Bill Donovan 91 2964.7 0.276
Dennis Martinez 122 3999.7 0.275
Clark Griffith+ 102 3385.7 0.271
Carl Mays 89 3021.3 0.265
Nolan Ryan+ 158 5386 0.264
Wilbur Cooper* 100 3480 0.259
Lee Meadows 90 3160.7 0.256
Earl Whitehill* 101 3564.7 0.255
Jack Powell 121 4389 0.248
Greg Maddux 129 4747 0.245
Jim Kaat* 122 4530.3 0.242
Kid Nichols+ 133 5056.3 0.237
Bob Gibson+ 102 3884.3 0.236
Mickey Lolich* 92 3638.3 0.228
Gus Weyhing 109 4324.3 0.227
Red Faber+ 103 4086.7 0.227
Rick Reuschel 88 3548.3 0.223
Jack Quinn 94 3920.3 0.216
Burleigh Grimes+ 97 4180 0.209
Phil Niekro+ 123 5404.3 0.205
Cy Young+ 163 7354.7 0.199
Tommy John* 98 4710.3 0.187
Gaylord Perry+ 108 5350.3 0.182
Tim Keefe+ 96 5047.7 0.171
Fergie Jenkins+ 84 4500.7 0.168

Now, this list had some interesting members. Ed Doheny hit as many batters in a game as Paul Byrd walks batters. Don Drysdale did hit a lot of batters, while Bob Gibson hit about as many as Mickey Lolich. Nolan Ryan, the pitcher who walked more batters than anybody, was definitely not a headhunter.

But I thought that a more interesting list would be one where the true headhunters showed up. A HBP is, in a way, a wild pitch. It's never in a pitcher's best interests to throw a wild pitch. It's never intentional. So a pitcher with a lot of HBP and not very many Wp - well, it shows premeditation to me. In my opinion, a true headhunter would be a pitcher with a high HBP count and a low WP count. I realize that WP is influenced by the quality of the team's catcher, and by the discretion of the scorekeeper who can also call a PB. But it's still a pretty good rule of thumb, I think.

NAME HBP WP HBP/WP
Jack Warhop 114 13 8.769
Harry McIntire 96 14 6.857
Joe McGinnity+ 182 30 6.067
Lefty Leifield* 85 17 5.000
Howard Ehmke 137 28 4.893
Jesse Tannehill* 130 28 4.643
Willie Sudhoff 126 30 4.200
Bill Duggleby 84 22 3.818
Red Donahue 101 27 3.741
Tully Sparks 88 24 3.667
Jeff Weaver 113 33 3.424
Jim Bunning+ 160 47 3.404
Jeff Pfeffer 105 34 3.088
Tommy Byrne* 85 28 3.036
Jakie May* 88 31 2.839
John Burkett 90 33 2.727
Carl Mays 89 34 2.618
Barney Pelty 107 42 2.548
Dave Stieb 129 51 2.529
Hooks Dauss 121 48 2.521
Earl Whitehill* 101 43 2.349
Julian Tavarez 90 39 2.308
Jack Taylor 92 40 2.300
Wilbur Cooper* 100 44 2.273
Eddie Plank+* 196 87 2.253
Togie Pittinger 96 43 2.233
Jamey Wright 117 53 2.208
Jamie Moyer* 117 53 2.208
Pedro Martinez 129 59 2.186
Ed Reulbach 107 49 2.184
Win Mercer 92 43 2.140
Frank Lary 97 47 2.064
Aaron Sele 111 54 2.056
George Uhle 113 55 2.055
Nixey Callahan 86 42 2.048
Red Faber+ 103 52 1.981
Chan Ho Park 126 64 1.969
Sam Leever 90 46 1.957
Greg Maddux 129 66 1.955
Doc White* 119 62 1.919
Pedro Astacio 111 59 1.881
Don Drysdale+ 154 82 1.878
Al Leiter* 117 63 1.857
Harry Howell 97 53 1.830
Jack Chesbro+ 113 62 1.823
Clark Griffith+ 102 57 1.789
Randy Johnson* 182 102 1.784
Jack Powell 121 72 1.681
Vic Willis+ 157 95 1.653
Tim Wakefield 150 91 1.648
Ed Willett 106 65 1.631
Jack Coombs 88 54 1.630
Cy Morgan 95 59 1.610
Kenny Rogers* 118 74 1.595
Jack Quinn 94 59 1.593
George Mullin 131 85 1.541
Rube Waddell+* 117 77 1.519
Ed Doheny* 132 87 1.517
Scott Erickson 103 68 1.515
Lee Meadows 90 60 1.500
Mike Boddicker 87 60 1.450
Rube Benton* 95 66 1.439
Jim Lonborg 105 73 1.438
Don Cardwell 98 69 1.420
Chief Bender+ 102 72 1.417
Cy Seymour* 84 60 1.400
Dennis Martinez 122 89 1.371
Bert Blyleven 155 114 1.360
Fergie Jenkins+ 84 62 1.355
Hippo Vaughn* 85 63 1.349
Earl Moore 106 79 1.342
Bill Donovan 91 69 1.319
Chick Fraser 177 135 1.311
Walter Johnson+ 203 155 1.310
Kevin Brown 139 108 1.287
Tom Hughes 104 83 1.253
Darryl Kile 117 97 1.206
Pink Hawley 98 83 1.181
Jack Billingham 98 84 1.167
Roger Clemens 155 142 1.092
Frank Tanana* 129 119 1.084
Burleigh Grimes+ 97 92 1.054
Cy Young+ 163 156 1.045
Rick Reuschel 88 89 0.989
Charlie Hough 174 179 0.972
Orel Hershiser 117 121 0.967
Jim Kaat* 122 128 0.953
Bob Gibson+ 102 108 0.944
Matt Clement 94 101 0.931
Gus Weyhing 109 130 0.838
Kid Nichols+ 133 169 0.787
Joe Coleman 90 118 0.763
Mickey Lolich* 92 124 0.742
David Cone 106 149 0.711
Tom Candiotti 85 120 0.708
Gaylord Perry+ 108 160 0.675
Nolan Ryan+ 158 277 0.570
Phil Niekro+ 123 226 0.544
Tommy John* 98 187 0.524
Tim Keefe+ 96 233 0.412

The appropriately named Jack Warhop was the #1 headhunter off this list. Of current players, Jeff Weaver leads the pack, which isn't really a surprise. The biggest shock was Senator Bunning... Don Drysdale and Carl Mays seem to have deserved their reputations. Bob Gibson didn't. Gibson was really a great one here - he didn't make you too comfortable at the plate, but he didn't plunk you either.

Calif_Eagle
08-04-2007, 12:30 AM
Sal Maglie pitched all or part of 10 seasons in MLB. "The Barber" had the rep of being a pitcher who would go inside, knock men down, hit them if need be. I checked his stats and he had 44 HPB and 18 WP in his career. As to his control, he fanned 862 lifetime and walked 562. he pitched 1723 career innings and allowed 1591 hits, a shade above 8 hits per 9 innings pitched. It seems like he had good control, he was known for his great curveball, and I think was thought to be a good control pitcher. These numbers would suggest to me that Maglie would go for a hitter also. Although, by the measures used above, the only one for Maglie that reflects intent in a big way is the 44 to 18 2.44 ratio of HBP to WP.

Los Bravos
08-04-2007, 03:24 AM
I'm not sure there's a straight up one to one correlation between hitting people and being mean. Undoubtedly, several of the names on this list (Gibson and Drysdale, in particular) were guys who supplimented their excellent stuff with a dose of intimidation.

By these numbers, Ryan might look like a guy who didn't hit people, but he was known to do so purposefully at times. The Ventura thing that everybody inexplicably thinks is so hilarious was set off when he hit Craig Grebek in the ribs for having the temerity to hit a homer off of him. Y'know...doing his job?

However, I don't really think guys like Niekro, Al Leiter (every time I saw him hit someone he acted like something out of a cartoon, slapping his head and cringing), Jamie Moyer and Greg Maddux were routinely plunking people in that manner.

The single meanest and most out of control guy in my personal experience was Dickie Noles, from the Phillies and Cubs. I always thought he was emotionally disturbed. So was Ed Whitson.

Gee Walker
08-04-2007, 09:03 AM
From some of the most devastating beanings of all time:

Jack Hamilton hit Tony Conigliaro - Hamilton really had no idea where his pitches were going. He only hit 13 batters in an 8-year career, but had 74 wild pitches.

Mike Torrez hit Dickie Thon - Torrez had OK control, and hit 59 batters while giving up 103 wild pitches in a long career.

Bump Hadley, who beaned Mickey Cochrane, didn't have good control, and hit a lot of batters (66) while giving up 71 wild pitches.

For the life of me, I can't remember who beaned Don Zimmer.

Ed Farmer, who hit Al Cowens, had only 12 HBP in an 11 year career, along with 39 wild pitches.

I agree with Maglie's reputation - his numbers would put him high on the list of intentional beaners, plus he had a very good fastball.

RuthMayBond
08-04-2007, 09:25 AM
But I thought that a more interesting list would be one where the true headhunters showed up. A HBP is, in a way, a wild pitch. It's never in a pitcher's best interests to throw a wild pitch. It's never intentional. So a pitcher with a lot of HBP and not very many Wp - well, it shows premeditation to me. In my opinion, a true headhunter would be a pitcher with a high HBP count and a low WP count. I realize that WP is influenced by the quality of the team's catcher, and by the discretion of the scorekeeper who can also call a PB. But it's still a pretty good rule of thumb, I think.Or maybe a HBP divided by walks per nine (adjusted, if possible). If the guy's ordinarily got good control he shouldn't be hitting batters "accidentally", but if he's got bad control the HBP may not be intentional

Gee Walker
08-04-2007, 10:17 AM
Or maybe a HBP divided by walks per nine (adjusted, if possible). If the guy's ordinarily got good control he shouldn't be hitting batters "accidentally", but if he's got bad control the HBP may not be intentional

I'll do the (BB/9P)/HBP spreadsheet in my next look at this. The reason why I didn't use it first is that a small percentage of walks are clearly intentional, and haven't always been measured. Worse, a larger but unknown percentage are "semi-intentional". These take the form of something like this:

Two out, nobody on, your setup man has a one-run lead in the eighth inning with Jim Thome coming up. The next guy up is a right-handed hitter. So it's agreed that "we won't let that $#&*# Thome beat us". The pitches are out of the strike zone, clearly intended as bait, but a hitter like Thome will be on first four or five pitches later.

1905 Giants
08-04-2007, 03:07 PM
Sal Maglie has to be on that list

cooldrive
10-11-2013, 09:52 PM
Sal Maglie pitched all or part of 10 seasons in MLB. "The Barber" had the rep of being a pitcher who would go inside, knock men down, hit them if need be. I checked his stats and he had 44 HPB and 18 WP in his career. As to his control, he fanned 862 lifetime and walked 562. he pitched 1723 career innings and allowed 1591 hits, a shade above 8 hits per 9 innings pitched. It seems like he had good control, he was known for his great curveball, and I think was thought to be a good control pitcher. These numbers would suggest to me that Maglie would go for a hitter also. Although, by the measures used above, the only one for Maglie that reflects intent in a big way is the 44 to 18 2.44 ratio of HBP to WP.

Drysdale gave Maglie the nod for teaching him why and how to pitch inside. It was interesting growing up in SF to see Drysdale dust Mays off often with Mays putting up an OPS of .978 against him.

Herr28
10-12-2013, 05:54 AM
Didn't Stan Williams keep a black book of batters to hit? I read somewhere that after hitting Henry Aaron, he apologized to him, saying he wasn't trying to hit him in the head, he was trying to hit him in the neck! I'll have to flip through Ball Four, I think I first came across him in there as a kid.

Badge714
10-12-2013, 06:18 AM
The "High Hard One" Kirby Higbe? This guy was really mean and thought the best weapon a pitcher had was intimidation.

ol' aches and pains
10-12-2013, 06:36 AM
By these numbers, Ryan might look like a guy who didn't hit people, but he was known to do so purposefully at times. The Ventura thing that everybody inexplicably thinks is so hilarious was set off when he hit Craig Grebek in the ribs for having the temerity to hit a homer off of him. Y'know...doing his job?

Craig Grebek and Ozzie Guillen homered off Ryan in the same game. Ryan apparently thought they hadn't earned the right to hit a home run off him. A week or so later, Ryan hit Grebek in "retaliation". The Ryan/Ventura fight was two years later, when he drilled Ventura. But the Grebek thing might have been in the back of Robin's mind as he charged the mound. In the front of his mind, as he said years later, he was thinking "What am I doing? That's Nolan Ryan out there!"

I know I'm responding to a six-year-old post, but hey, I've been busy.

westsidegrounds
10-12-2013, 01:42 PM
The single season hit batsmen leaders are overwhelmingly from the 1890s, but here are some "recent" pitchers with a wide gap between their HBP* and their WP:

Howard Ehmke, 1922: 23 HBP, 1 WP

Walter Johnson, 1923: 20 HBP, 2 WP

Tornado Jack Weimer, 1907: 23 HBP, 3 WP

Drysdale, by contrast, hit a number of guys, but he also threw a lot of wild pitches - his "best" season was 1961: 20 HBP, 7 WP

Gibson is much further back - his season high of 13 HBP (6 WP) in 1963 doesn't get him into the top 500.

And Sal the Barber ... he topped out at a mere 10 HBP (4 WP) in 1950. He sure did look mean, though.

*Minimum 20 HBP

Los Bravos
10-12-2013, 05:46 PM
Didn't Stan Williams keep a black book of batters to hit? I read somewhere that after hitting Henry Aaron, he apologized to him, saying he wasn't trying to hit him in the head, he was trying to hit him in the neck! I'll have to flip through Ball Four, I think I first came across him in there as a kid. I'm 95% sure Drysdale said that to Aaron.


Craig Grebek and Ozzie Guillen homered off Ryan in the same game. Ryan apparently thought they hadn't earned the right to hit a home run off him. A week or so later, Ryan hit Grebek in "retaliation". The Ryan/Ventura fight was two years later, when he drilled Ventura. But the Grebek thing might have been in the back of Robin's mind as he charged the mound. In the front of his mind, as he said years later, he was thinking "What am I doing? That's Nolan Ryan out there!"

I know I'm responding to a six-year-old post, but hey, I've been busy. No problem. Better late than never :nod:

I'm fairly sure that Ventura mentioned that as a motivating factor in his charge after the incident. I know there was solid bad blood between the Sox and Ryan over the earlier thing. Like I've written here, that was a punk move by Ryan who was more than a little bit of a bully at times.

I'm a little surprised that Burdette's name hasn't come up much. He was no Sal Maglie but wasn't averse to dropping a guy for effect (and usually yelling at him as he lay in the dirt.)

I always say that he looked like Chuck Connors. He could act a little like him, too.

Herr28
10-12-2013, 05:47 PM
I had to scan the list a couple times, but I found my favorite pitcher when I was a kid - über-prick Roger Clemens. I figured he had to be in there somewhere.

ol' aches and pains
10-12-2013, 06:04 PM
I'm fairly sure that Ventura mentioned that as a motivating factor in his charge after the incident. I know there was solid bad blood between the Sox and Ryan over the earlier thing. Like I've written here, that was a punk move by Ryan who was more than a little bit of a bully at times.

I'm a little surprised that Burdette's name hasn't come up much. He was no Sal Maglie but wasn't averse to dropping a guy for effect (and usually yelling at him as he lay in the dirt.)

I always say that he looked like Chuck Connors. He could act a little like him, too.

One detail I had forgotten about the Ryan incident was that Grebek and Guillen homered back-to-back off Ryan. I can see how that would stick in his craw, I suppose.

Burdette was especially hard on Roy Campanella, knocking him down repeatedly. Who doesn't like Roy Campanella, for God's sake?

MattD1972
10-13-2013, 05:44 AM
Early Wynn was apparently the one who, when told he was so mean he'd brush back his own mother, retorted with "Hey, my mother was a good hitter!" An apocryphal baseball story that gets attached to a lot of brushback pitchers.
Toward the end of his career,Wynn was pitching BP to his son, who got a couple of good knocks against him. Early reverted to form and knocked the kid down.

Herr28
10-13-2013, 06:24 AM
One detail I had forgotten about the Ryan incident was that Grebek and Guillen homered back-to-back off Ryan. I can see how that would stick in his craw, I suppose.

Burdette was especially hard on Roy Campanella, knocking him down repeatedly. Who doesn't like Roy Campanella, for God's sake?

Wow! I didn't know that. Must make you feel like the coach in a coach-pitch little kids league! I doubt those two "big guns" have ever dreamed of knocking anything harder than maybe some line drive back-to-back doubles!

Herr28
10-13-2013, 08:37 AM
How about a guy so big and mean, he attacks his own catcher in the dugout!?! Oh yeah, I'm talking about Big Z - Carlos Zambrano!

Herr28
10-13-2013, 08:56 AM
Bob Gibson and Reggie Jackson talking about intimidation! Good stuff! Gibby says if a guy was coming to the plate who didn't like to get knocked down, he'd knock him down!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aBcFKEb6ak

Herr28
10-13-2013, 09:01 AM
Bob Gibson was a fierce competitor, but I have always read what a great guy he was - as long as you were on his team of course! He always made the new guys feel welcome (like Orlando Cepeda and Roger Maris), great team leader. Here is a quick story about hitting Ron Fairly:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aBcFKEb6ak

ol' aches and pains
10-13-2013, 09:12 AM
Bob Gibson and Reggie Jackson talking about intimidation! Good stuff! Gibby says if a guy was coming to the plate who didn't like to get knocked down, he'd knock him down!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aBcFKEb6ak

I highly recommend that book, by the way. Fascinating stuff from these two HOFrs.

Herr28
10-13-2013, 09:18 AM
I highly recommend that book, by the way. Fascinating stuff from these two HOFrs.

It sounded really interesting, and they have various clips like this with Reggie and Bob discussing aspects of the game like who owns the plate and the count. I'd read it for sure!

JR Hart
10-13-2013, 11:30 AM
Leo Durocher named Maglie "The Barber" because his curve was so good that he should shave the outside corner. I think that the nickname has grown into a myth since his retirement.

bluesky5
10-13-2013, 12:15 PM
Terry Larkin went 89-80 between 1876 and 1884. On April 24, 1883 he shot his wife and a police officer. On February 18, 1884 he threatened to shoot his father. In 1894 he challenged his employer to a duel with pistols. Seems pretty mean to me. Rube Waddell once beat up his father and mother-in-law. Randy Johnson killed a bird. Ugueth Urbina did five years in Venezuela for attacking some farm workers with a machete and dumping gasoline on them in an attempt to light them on fire. Pedro Martinez threw Don Zimmer on the ground by his head. There have been a lot of mean pitchers.

Los Bravos
10-13-2013, 03:15 PM
How about a guy so big and mean, he attacks his own catcher in the dugout!?! Oh yeah, I'm talking about Big Z - Carlos Zambrano!"Disturbed" and "mean" aren't necessarily the same thing.


Pedro Martinez threw Don Zimmer on the ground by his head. One of the funniest things I have ever seen in my life.

Captain Cold Nose
10-13-2013, 05:17 PM
"Disturbed" and "mean" aren't necessarily the same thing.

One of the funniest things I have ever seen in my life.

I'm not quite sure what Martinez should have done differently on that one. What exactly should someone do when they're getting charged at by another human being? We got a lot of armchair analysis on that one from people who very likely had never been remotely close to such a situation. If Pedro is mean, it's not because of how he handled a very stupid thing for Zimmer to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

ol' aches and pains
10-13-2013, 09:19 PM
Terry Larkin went 89-80 between 1876 and 1884. On April 24, 1883 he shot his wife and a police officer. On February 18, 1884 he threatened to shoot his father. In 1894 he challenged his employer to a duel with pistols.

Larkin must have had a very good lawyer.

Los Bravos
10-14-2013, 01:13 AM
I'm not quite sure what Martinez should have done differently on that one. What exactly should someone do when they're getting charged at by another human being? We got a lot of armchair analysis on that one from people who very likely had never been remotely close to such a situation. If Pedro is mean, it's not because of how he handled a very stupid thing for Zimmer to do. Pedro had a pretty solid mean streak (see his plunking of Reggie Sanders for an example) but you're absolutely right about Zimmer.

That incident reminded me of Jim Bouton's near fight with Frank Crosetti. Like he wrote, that is a total no win situation. if you "win", so what? You beat up an old guy! If you lose, you're Goliath and he's a hero.

All in all, Pedro put him down much more gently than I would have.

Herr28
10-14-2013, 06:26 AM
Larkin must have had a very good lawyer.

Or his mates rode into town, shot the place up while guzzling whiskey (got to spit the cork out first, of course), and broke him out of the wooden jail/sheriff's office, and they lost the posse by doubling back in the creek. Them's were truly the good old days.

Dude Paskert
10-14-2013, 07:22 AM
Pedro had a pretty solid mean streak (see his plunking of Reggie Sanders for an example) but you're absolutely right about Zimmer.

That incident reminded me of Jim Bouton's near fight with Frank Crosetti. Like he wrote, that is a total no win situation. if you "win", so what? You beat up an old guy! If you lose, you're Goliath and he's a hero.

All in all, Pedro put him down much more gently than I would have.

Pedro had something going on with Gerald Williams of the Rays that resulted in him getting chased around the field after a HBP. Williams was pretty cut and I'm sure Pedro realized he was going to take a beating if he stood his ground.
A friend told me about Brady Anderson sticking his elbow in front of a Wakefield floater to reach base in one game and then taking a Pedro heater square in the back on the first pitch of the next game. Seemed like Pedro decided that Brady liked getting HBP and thought they should do it right! I'm not sure if Pedro ever did that to that noted sticker of his elbow into the strike zone on breaking balls Jason Giambi, probably would have been too risky given Giambi's size and strength. It drove me absolutely NUTS to see that loser get intentionally hit by pitches IN THE STRIKE ZONE and never once get the proper call from an ump that it was a strike, I still hate him and am glad that he's disgraced in the eyes of most fans.

Los Bravos
10-14-2013, 10:34 PM
It's not that well remembered by most fans but the Sox and (then-Devil) Rays had some epic rumbles in that era.

And, yes...Giambi is a tool.

And his brother was too stupid to slide.

leewileyfan
10-14-2013, 10:57 PM
Van Lingle Mungo.

Dude Paskert
10-15-2013, 06:17 AM
It's not that well remembered by most fans but the Sox and (then-Devil) Rays had some epic rumbles in that era.

And, yes...Giambi is a tool.

And his brother was too stupid to slide.

I wonder if the Yanks ever paid Jeremy for that gift? Or at least gave him a Jeter going-away basket with an autographed ball?
Lucky that the Bosox took a chance on Ortiz at the same time they picked up Jeremy, Giambi failed completely as the Bosox DH.

Dude Paskert
10-15-2013, 06:20 AM
Van Lingle Mungo.

Burleight Grimes had a reputation for being nasty, and any ball that hit you was also likely to be smeared with spit (he was the last grandfathered spitballer).

Herr28
10-15-2013, 06:24 AM
I wonder if the Yanks ever paid Jeremy for that gift? Or at least gave him a Jeter going-away basket with an autographed ball?
Lucky that the Bosox took a chance on Ortiz at the same time they picked up Jeremy, Giambi failed completely as the Bosox DH.

Yeah, I just got up to Minneapolis not long before that. Ortiz had had a wrist injury that took away some power and time, and the Twins were done with him. They didn't like to pay their guys when they got to FA status anyway, but Ortiz just seemed like a big nice guy, who was never going to stay healthy or be the guy you wish he could be...

Dude Paskert
10-15-2013, 06:29 AM
Yeah, I just got up to Minneapolis not long before that. Ortiz had had a wrist injury that took away some power and time, and the Twins were done with him. They didn't like to pay their guys when they got to FA status anyway, but Ortiz just seemed like a big nice guy, who was never going to stay healthy or be the guy you wish he could be...

Ortiz claimed that the Twins were always pressing him to hit the other way and make "productive outs"...he hated the batting approach they were pushing on him.

Herr28
10-15-2013, 06:39 AM
Ortiz claimed that the Twins were always pressing him to hit the other way and make "productive outs"...he hated the batting approach they were pushing on him.

That is certainly the Tom Kelly and Ron Gardenhire way. They wanted to manufacture runs, I guess out of necessity because that skinflint criminal, billionaire Carl Pohlad, refused to pay for any real talent to make scoring easier. I can see David not wanting to do that. He was always seen, from what I read in the papers then, to be a great guy for the team. I never heard he was dissatisfied there, though not beyond being upset with injuries and inconsistency.

I went to a game (I will have to look it up, might have been the year I was there on Mother's Day) when the Red Sox came to town with Jeremy Giambi struggling early on. He came into the Dome and put two incredible moon shots over the baggie in RF for the first time I had seen one guy hit 2 HRs in the Metrodome (saw Gregg Jefferies do it in Busch Stadium in 1993). He was gone not long after that, though.

EDIT: There it is, 11 May 2003. Giambi hit a HR in the top of the 7th (off my man Brad Radke) and another in the top of the 8th (off LaTroy Hawkins). Both solo shots.

Michael Green
10-19-2013, 05:44 PM
The other day, The Vin was saying that he LIKES emotion on the field, so he thinks everybody was being silly about the Dodgers (and he's certainly not a homer). But he also mentioned that he wouldn't have minded seeing how Bob Gibson or Don Drysdale would have reacted to an opposing player doing what Gonzales and Puig were doing. Speaking of mean pitchers ... he also told the story of broadcasting a playoff game with Gibson and how a rookie shortstop went to the mound to talk to a veteran pitcher during a crucial situation and asking Gibson what the kid could possibly be saying. Gibson replied, "Absolutely nothing." So he asked Gibson what he would do in response and Gibson replied, "I wouldn't have allowed him to come to the mound."

ol' aches and pains
10-19-2013, 09:07 PM
The other day, The Vin was saying that he LIKES emotion on the field, so he thinks everybody was being silly about the Dodgers (and he's certainly not a homer). But he also mentioned that he wouldn't have minded seeing how Bob Gibson or Don Drysdale would have reacted to an opposing player doing what Gonzales and Puig were doing. Speaking of mean pitchers ... he also told the story of broadcasting a playoff game with Gibson and how a rookie shortstop went to the mound to talk to a veteran pitcher during a crucial situation and asking Gibson what the kid could possibly be saying. Gibson replied, "Absolutely nothing." So he asked Gibson what he would do in response and Gibson replied, "I wouldn't have allowed him to come to the mound."

Tim McCarver has often told the story about going out to the mound to talk to Gibson, and Gibson saying "What are you doing here? The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it".

Dude Paskert
10-21-2013, 05:55 AM
Tim McCarver has often told the story about going out to the mound to talk to Gibson, and Gibson saying "What are you doing here? The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it".

Gibby had a history of being rather abusive to Tim...McCarver said that one time in spring training, Bob just grabbed him and held him up over his head, shaking him like a rag doll. Gibson acted like it was all in good fun, but Tim was pretty terrified by Bob's strength...I would guess that Gibson was sending a message about not messing with him by doing that.