Reasonable Goal

[Eddiey]

In todays St. Pete Times manager Joe Maddon says a reasonable goal for the
team this coming year is 81 wins.

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/11/Rays/Maddon_envisions_Rays.shtml

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Maddon can tell everything that he wants. But is it realistic what he is telling us? :confused:

Your opinion please.

[gman5431]

I'm trying to figure out what is sadder...

1). Setting a goal for the season that is sub- .500.
or
2). Everyone knowing that you will never be able to reach that goal.

G Man

[jcmitchell]

I'm trying to figure out what is sadder...

1). Setting a goal for the season that is sub- .500.
or
2). Everyone knowing that you will never be able to reach that goal.

G Man

I think 81 wins is a reasonable goal and it could be exceeded if everything goes right. But I think 75-78 wins in more likely.

[raysnbran]

It would be reasonable in most divisions except the one we are in. Since 70 wins is the record, get to 71 and then we'll talk. Any injury to a starting player and our depth would blow 81 wins out of the mindset of everyone. Let's shoot for not being mathematically eliminated by Memorial Day for a change :eek:

[gman5431]

I think 81 wins is a reasonable goal and it could be exceeded if everything goes right. But I think 75-78 wins in more likely.

I like what the new ownership is trying to do and everything.... but with that division, getting to 70 wins is enough of a struggle. I predict another ho-hum barely avoiding 100 loses season in Tampa.

G Man

[Eddiey]

I like what the new ownership is trying to do and everything.... but with that division, getting to 70 wins is enough of a struggle. I predict another ho-hum barely avoiding 100 loses season in Tampa.

G Man

Last year the Rays were 13-23 against the Sox and the Yanks. If they can
win 15 games this year and go 66-60 against the rest of their schedule
they reach 81 wins. With the improved starting pitching and better bullpen
I'd say thats achievable.

[Imgran]

That's quite an if, you know.

But I agree, there's a lot more room for hope in Tampa than there has been in awhile.

[gman5431]

Last year the Rays were 13-23 against the Sox and the Yanks. If they can
win 15 games this year and go 66-60 against the rest of their schedule
they reach 81 wins. With the improved starting pitching and better bullpen
I'd say thats achievable.

Yeah, or they go 50-76 against the rest of the league and end up with 65 or so wins... time will tell... the division is murder and we have heard about how TB is improving and they have the best farm system for a couple years now. We will see....

G Man

[Eddiey]

Yeah, or they go 50-76 against the rest of the league and end up with 65 or so wins... time will tell... the division is murder and we have heard about how TB is improving and they have the best farm system for a couple years now. We will see....

G Man

Yeah, they do play in the toughest division in baseball. Its too bad the Rays
don't play in the National League. If they did they would be contending for
a playoff spot this year.

[tonypug]

Maddon is being cautious in what he says. 81 wins is reasonable and attainable. They have to win more games against teams that they are as good as or stronger then. Whatever wins they get agaisnt the Yankees and Red Sox is gravy. They have to win their other games and that is what they have to concentrate on. Beat the Orioles and Blue Jays more often and the record will be better.

[gman5431]

Maddon is being cautious in what he says. 81 wins is reasonable and attainable. They have to win more games against teams that they are as good as or stronger then. Whatever wins they get agaisnt the Yankees and Red Sox is gravy. They have to win their other games and that is what they have to concentrate on. Beat the Orioles and Blue Jays more often and the record will be better.

Agreed, that is a good and plausible goal, but isnt it sad when you are basically saying in January, if we play good we can get 3rd place..... hello Salary Cap?

G Man

[Imgran]

Agreed, that is a good and plausible goal, but isnt it sad when you are basically saying in January, if we play good we can get 3rd place..... hello Salary Cap?

G Man

Forget all about a salary cap. Almost definitely never happen. And it wouldn't help the Rays much even it if did -- the cap would be set at about the 120 mil range.

Any one of Coco, Melky or Gomez would be a better option. Don't forget that even if you've dealt Santana and don't get a CF, putting Perkins or Guerrier on the block would probably net you any of the three with value to spare.

[gman5431]

Forget all about a salary cap. Almost definitely never happen. And it wouldn't help the Rays much even it if did -- the cap would be set at about the 120 mil range.

Any one of Coco, Melky or Gomez would be a better option. Don't forget that even if you've dealt Santana and don't get a CF, putting Perkins or Guerrier on the block would probably net you any of the three with value to spare.

Salary cap will happen eventually and it would help the Rays because if they do it like the NFL, the TV revenues would be shared and thats what makes the biggest difference. Then the "small market" issues become irrelevant.

G Man

[Pere]

Yeah, they do play in the toughest division in baseball. Its too bad the Rays
don't play in the National League. If they did they would be contending for
a playoff spot this year.

The AL East is not the toughest division, and while I have a soft spot for the Rays, they are absolutely not playoff material in any division this year. The divisional underlings in the ALE have the play the Red Sox and Yanks, it's true, but they also get to play each other a bunch of times.

[gman5431]

Sorry to bump this up from the grave.... and it was buried 3 pages back, but i would like to come out and admit that i was wrong - dead wrong. The Rays have been nothing short of amazing. As a life long Yankee hater i dont consider myself a true bandwagon jumper, i would have liked to see the Rays doing well all along because inheriently that would mean they would be besting the Yanks. Anyways, i dont believe even the most die hard Rays fan (or is that an oxymoron) thought the season could go like this.....

G Man

[raysnbran]

Not I either, I was just hoping they would beat the team record of 70 :dance

Perhaps this thread will put an end to the Rays fans' perceived arrogance :shhh: None of us expected to be doing this well, and now that we are, we are truly excited. Speaking for me, I am still wary of the Sox and Yankees like we should be. I keep pinching myself to see if this season is truly happening. Arrogance is being cocky to the point of being obnoxious. To go from worst to first would truly be amazing, and a little chest thumping would be in order. Not boasting or bragging, just rejoicing that a corner in this franchise's short history has finally been turned. Thank you Stu :bowdown:

[zengator]

Not I either, I was just hoping they would beat the team record of 70 :dance

Perhaps this thread will put an end to the Rays fans' perceived arrogance :shhh: None of us expected to be doing this well, and now that we are, we are truly excited. Speaking for me, I am still wary of the Sox and Yankees like we should be. I keep pinching myself to see if this season is truly happening. Arrogance is being cocky to the point of being obnoxious. To go from worst to first would truly be amazing, and a little chest thumping would be in order. Not boasting or bragging, just rejoicing that a corner in this franchise's short history has finally been turned. Thank you Stu :bowdown:

Well said. A few NY/Boston fans have taken Rays' fans new-found happiness and spirit this season as "arrogance", but most understand what's what. We're thrilled to be in the hunt, especially since it seems like this team is no flash in the pan.

I never posted in this thread, but I also thought that .500 was a reasonable goal. Now anything less than 90 wins would be a disappointment. Who woulda thunk it??? :dance

[Imgran]

The Rays have an opportunity this year that might not come again for years.
Both sides of the duopoly are extra weak right now.

You guys have a chance to legitimize the Rays this year. Hope you make it -- especially if that means there's no room in the playoffs for NYY

[Pere]

i would like to come out and admit that i was wrong - dead wrong. The Rays have been nothing short of amazing.

Hear, hear. Me too, and I'm glad. It really has been fun watching them.


The Rays have an opportunity this year that might not come again for years.
Both sides of the duopoly are extra weak right now.


I don't think this gives the Rays enough credit!

Besides, I don't think it's quite right to say that the Sox and Yanks are "weak"... they've had some stretches of being bad, but that's not the same thing. Weakness is an inherent disadvantage, which is the very opposite of what the Yankees and Red Sox have.

[gman5431]

Not I either, I was just hoping they would beat the team record of 70 :dance

Perhaps this thread will put an end to the Rays fans' perceived arrogance :shhh: None of us expected to be doing this well, and now that we are, we are truly excited. Speaking for me, I am still wary of the Sox and Yankees like we should be. I keep pinching myself to see if this season is truly happening. Arrogance is being cocky to the point of being obnoxious. To go from worst to first would truly be amazing, and a little chest thumping would be in order. Not boasting or bragging, just rejoicing that a corner in this franchise's short history has finally been turned. Thank you Stu :bowdown:

Anyone who accuses a Rays fan of being arrogant is either stupid or ignorant or both. If you want to see arrogant then you have to look no further to the "we own the world and can say things like the DH is horrible" folks in the Bronx. I am definately pulling for the Rays. Seeing the Yankees left out of the playoffs would be sweet. A Milw - Rays WS, even though the baseball execs would probably vomit would be super interesting for me.

G Man

[Imgran]

Hear, hear. Me too, and I'm glad. It really has been fun watching them.



I don't think this gives the Rays enough credit!

Besides, I don't think it's quite right to say that the Sox and Yanks are "weak"... they've had some stretches of being bad, but that's not the same thing. Weakness is an inherent disadvantage, which is the very opposite of what the Yankees and Red Sox have.

The Yankees have lost Matsui, Posada, and Wang, and Joba's going to be seeing a world-famous shoulder surgeon today. Cano, Melky and Jeter are slumping as well.

The Red Sox have lost Schilling for good, Manny's gone, and Varitek and Ellsbury are terrible this year Beckett is also completely off his form.

The Big Two might not be this vulnerable again for a long time. This takes nothing from the Rays -- they still are a very good team to be taking advantage of that weakness as well as they are. But if the Sox and Yankees were playing at their peak potential the Rays would be running a very strong third place right now.

also there's the fact that the Rays' pen is being held together by prayer, bubble gum, and absurdly low BABIPs. Career years out of 4 different relievers would make a contender out of most teams.

[gman5431]

The Yankees have lost Matsui, Posada, and Wang, and Joba's going to be seeing a world-famous shoulder surgeon today. Cano, Melky and Jeter are slumping as well.

The Red Sox have lost Schilling for good, Manny's gone, and Varitek and Ellsbury are terrible this year Beckett is also completely off his form.

The Big Two might not be this vulnerable again for a long time. This takes nothing from the Rays -- they still are a very good team to be taking advantage of that weakness as well as they are. But if the Sox and Yankees were playing at their peak potential the Rays would be running a very strong third place right now.

also there's the fact that the Rays' pen is being held together by prayer, bubble gum, and absurdly low BABIPs. Career years out of 4 different relievers would make a contender out of most teams.

Ok, so all you just did was sum up what any small market team has to do in order to compete - have career years from a few players especially pitcher (and especially in the bullpen where small market teams have little to no money left to spend) and then also it doesnt hurt that the large market teams struggle. And even with all that the larger payroll provider flexibility. When the Yankees have trouble, they go out and get Nady, Marte, Pudge, etc - the Rays cant do that. If Navarro or Longoria didnt work out they would probably be in a world of hurt. Things have to pan out that way to compete with team that has salary 10 times your own. I agree with you that Rays have to sieze this opportunity because they have put themselves in a situation where they have a chance to actually win something, but with the organization they have built, from the new ownership to the current stars to the booming farm system, thinking that they are a one year wonder i believe is off base.

G Man

[Imgran]

"I agree with you that Rays have to sieze this opportunity because they have put themselves in a situation where they have a chance to actually win something, but with the organization they have built, from the new ownership to the current stars to the booming farm system, thinking that they are a one year wonder i believe is off base."

I don't believe they're a one year wonder. At the very least they've passed the Blue Jays to become the third-strongest franchise in the division. That's one heck of an accomplihsment with the constraints the Rays are working under. I do think that their bullpen is going to return to earth at some point and it's going to be an interesting question how they cope with that.

[Eddiey]

"I agree with you that Rays have to sieze this opportunity because they have put themselves in a situation where they have a chance to actually win something, but with the organization they have built, from the new ownership to the current stars to the booming farm system, thinking that they are a one year wonder i believe is off base."

I don't believe they're a one year wonder. At the very least they've passed the Blue Jays to become the third-strongest franchise in the division. That's one heck of an accomplihsment with the constraints the Rays are working under. I do think that their bullpen is going to return to earth at some point and it's going to be an interesting question how they cope with that.

If the bullpen does falter I'd say the Rays have a great chance of coping,
David Price, Wade Davis, Jake McGee and Eduardo Morlan, some or all,
might be able to pick up the slack.

[zengator]

If the bullpen does falter I'd say the Rays have a great chance of coping,
David Price, Wade Davis, Jake McGee and Eduardo Morlan, some or all,
might be able to pick up the slack.

Exactly. The pitching depth throughout the organization is outstanding. However, they are going to have to open the checkbook (or make some trades) over the offseason to improve their stock of position players.

[Westlake]

Anyone who accuses a Rays fan of being arrogant is either stupid or ignorant or both.


So you seriously think there is not one arrogant Rays fan in the world? Really? If anything is stupid, it's the idea that there isn't. All teams will have arrogant fans, going from as low as a few to as much as most.

[zengator]

So you seriously think there is not one arrogant Rays fan in the world? Really? If anything is stupid, it's the idea that there isn't. All teams will have arrogant fans, going from as low as a few to as much as most.

Your Honor, I move that Exhibit 1,918,086 be introduced into evidence.

[Pere]

I don't believe they're a one year wonder.

Okay. I guess I misunderstood where you said,


The Rays have an opportunity this year that might not come again for years.

[Westlake]

Your Honor, I move that Exhibit 1,918,086 be introduced into evidence.

Typical moronic statement.

You actually tried to say that when a person moves he should adopt the team he moves close to and stop following his old team. I'll introduce that as evidence of inanity.

[zengator]

Typical moronic statement.

You actually tried to say that when a person moves he should adopt the team he moves close to and stop following his old team. I'll introduce that as evidence of inanity.

I'm sorry, Your Honor; with the evidence of Boston arrogance (and self-importance) piling up so quickly, I'm losing track of the exhibition numbers. Could I get a calculator?


Again, what I said was that you can't expect to NOT catch some grief if you move to a community but continue to openly and obnoxiously root for a team that's a major rival. If you're staying for the long-term, your choices are to a) change allegiances, b) keep supporting your old team but do so respectfully, or c) be an arrogant ass, belittling your new neighbors and getting all offended when anyone calls you out.

Unfortunately, choice C has been all too common around here, at least historically. That seems to changing, tho.

[gman5431]

If the bullpen does falter I'd say the Rays have a great chance of coping,
David Price, Wade Davis, Jake McGee and Eduardo Morlan, some or all,
might be able to pick up the slack.

Yeah, the Rays have built a great organization and i hope they see this year as a great opportunity and go all out for it (i.e - dont baby Price along - get him up and give him a shot in pennant race). I agree that their bullpen has been amazing and it was not expected to be that good. Let's hope they can keep it up and make some moves if problems arise.

G Man

[gman5431]

I'm sorry, Your Honor; with the evidence of Boston arrogance (and self-importance) piling up so quickly, I'm losing track of the exhibition numbers. Could I get a calculator?


Again, what I said was that you can't expect to NOT catch some grief if you move to a community but continue to openly and obnoxiously root for a team that's a major rival. If you're staying for the long-term, your choices are to a) change allegiances, b) keep supporting your old team but do so respectfully, or c) be an arrogant ass, belittling your new neighbors and getting all offended when anyone calls you out.

Unfortunately, choice C has been all too common around here, at least historically. That seems to changing, tho.

Looks like some personal stuff going on between the two of you, i dont know the background on that.... haha..

What i was saying is, i think the percentage of Rays fans who are arrogant and have the we own the world attitude is much, much lower then that of Yankees fans. Evidence: Hank Steinbrenner.

G Man

[Imgran]

Okay. I guess I misunderstood where you said,


They DO have an opportunity that might not come again in years. And it's not because the Rays are any kind of weak. I have a ton of respect for what the Rays have managed to accomplish. But part of the reason they've got a lead right now is that both the Yankees and the Sox are old and trying to transition, to shore up an aging core with young players. Ask the Blue Jays, and they'll tell you what happens when you assemble a strong team while the Sox and Yanks are at peak power and able to check them.

The "opportunity that might not come in years" is a combination of a good team and good timing.

The Rays are 2-3 years ahead of the duopoly on the track to reestablishing a strong, dynamic young team. That's really your window. By 2010 the Yankees and Sox will have written enough checks to fill most of the roster holes you see now (SS, C, CF, RP for the Sox, 1B, C, CF, SP, RP for the Yanks) and the battle becomes much more uphill for Tampa.

[Gingerkid]

Okay this thread disturbs me as a Yankee fan but not for the reasons you guys would think. I am a rare breed of Yankee fan in that I love the game more than the team so I am a bit more humble than the rest of my family of fans. I love what the Rays are doing. I think it has been a long time coming. I also understand the lack of faith you all have in them (I'm a Jet fan in the NFL). With that said you guys have to stop talking about your team being the "3rd best" team in the division as if its a good thing. For one, you aren't the 3rd best you are THE BEST right now. Accept it, charish it, but don't be coy about it. The Rays are awesome right now. Secondly it is no feet to be third best. That should never be your aim. I know the Yanks and the BoSlobs have monsterous payrolls,fan bases and histories but that should never stop you all for reaching for the same thing. When the Yankees first came to New York (They used to be the Orioles of Baltimore until 1903) they were terrible for the first decade or so. They had a home park that was a constant controversy, they couldn't win to save their lives, there was incessant drama off the field (Sound familiar?). Also there was a hugely popular, successful team, the New York Giants, with whom they had to compete for players and fans. The Giants were a juggernaut with a huge payroll and winning pedigree the flegling Yankees could only dream about having (Also sound familiar?). But, with all of the odds against them the yankees drove on. Eventually things started clicking and you know the rest.
The point of all of this is that your team is only 10.5 years old. Your time will come (Perhaps it already has). But you have to stop worrying about us so much. The Rays have been trouble for the Slobs forever and for the last two or three years they've been trouble for us too. You compete well with the AL East. You are a contender. Just accept it. It doesn't make you arrogant to talk about how great your team is. They ARE great. We have no problem talking about Yankee history do we? We talk about it so much most of you hate us for it. So take a lesson from Yankees Universe and embrace your success no matter what all the haters say. The bottom line is your team is the best right now whether the fans of the other MLB teams like it or not.

Greetings from NY.

PS: Just watch out for Anaheim in the playoffs. They are stupid-good.

[Eddiey]

Okay this thread disturbs me as a Yankee fan but not for the reasons you guys would think. I am a rare breed of Yankee fan in that I love the game more than the team so I am a bit more humble than the rest of my family of fans. I love what the Rays are doing. I think it has been a long time coming. I also understand the lack of faith you all have in them (I'm a Jet fan in the NFL). With that said you guys have to stop talking about your team being the "3rd best" team in the division as if its a good thing. For one, you aren't the 3rd best you are THE BEST right now. Accept it, charish it, but don't be coy about it. The Rays are awesome right now. Secondly it is no feet to be third best. That should never be your aim. I know the Yanks and the BoSlobs have monsterous payrolls,fan bases and histories but that should never stop you all for reaching for the same thing. When the Yankees first came to New York (They used to be the Orioles of Baltimore until 1903) they were terrible for the first decade or so. They had a home park that was a constant controversy, they couldn't win to save their lives, there was incessant drama off the field (Sound familiar?). Also there was a hugely popular, successful team, the New York Giants, with whom they had to compete for players and fans. The Giants were a juggernaut with a huge payroll and winning pedigree the flegling Yankees could only dream about having (Also sound familiar?). But, with all of the odds against them the yankees drove on. Eventually things started clicking and you know the rest.
The point of all of this is that your team is only 10.5 years old. Your time will come (Perhaps it already has). But you have to stop worrying about us so much. The Rays have been trouble for the Slobs forever and for the last two or three years they've been trouble for us too. You compete well with the AL East. You are a contender. Just accept it. It doesn't make you arrogant to talk about how great your team is. They ARE great. We have no problem talking about Yankee history do we? We talk about it so much most of you hate us for it. So take a lesson from Yankees Universe and embrace your success no matter what all the haters say. The bottom line is your team is the best right now whether the fans of the other MLB teams like it or not.

Greetings from NY.

PS: Just watch out for Anaheim in the playoffs. They are stupid-good.

Who referred to the Rays as being the third best in the division? I don't recall
a Rays fan saying that. However, fans of other teams have come in here
and trashed the Rays and their fans. It could have been one or more of
them. Other than that thank you for your post. I like you love the game
more then a particular team so I can easily identify with what you said.
I didn't realize it till you mentioned the Angels but did you know that the
Rays are the only AL team with a winning record against them? (4-2) With
3 games left at home against LA the Rays need to win only 1 to take
the season series. Just a Rays fan bragging a little. :rofl:

[Gingerkid]

Honestly, who trashes Rays fans? It must be the Boston people. I don't know if you realize it but we've never liked them much. :)

[Eddiey]

Honestly, who trashes Rays fans? It must be the Boston people. I don't know if you realize it but we've never liked them much. :)

I grew up in the Bronx so yeah I did hear something about a wee bit of
tension between Red Sox and Yankee fans. :)

[zengator]

Honestly, who trashes Rays fans? It must be the Boston people. I don't know if you realize it but we've never liked them much. :)

No kidding? :laugh