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hellborn
03-19-2008, 09:33 AM
I don't know if this will end up being an empty threat, but it has been reported that the Red Sox players are boycotting the trip to Japan (and today's game with the Jays) if the coaches and training staff don't get the same $40,000 stipend that the players are for making the trip.

sharrock
03-19-2008, 10:18 AM
The delay of this game is the first step and I think MLB will move back to the spirit of the original agreement and compensate the coaches and staff. Also at issue is whether the player's families (and staff families) will be allowed to come on the trip, which is actually 19/20 days.

Its a developing story, but it is not surprising to me that MLB would jack around with this trip. From reports, the last two Japan trips featured compensation to the coaches and staff so this one would seem to merit it as well based on precedent.

I'm assuming Oakland will take the same stand if it comes to that but I expect the Japan trip to eventually take place. But maybe MLB will do away with the stupidity of opening the regular season overseas. In which case I'll buy a beer for everyone ont he Sox or Oakland.

hellborn
03-19-2008, 10:25 AM
Papi better stay away from the blowfish (fugu) sushi.
Sea Urchin (uni) would probably make him sick and miss the games, but at least not kill him.

It'll be interesting to see if Foulke pitches against the Bosox...not sure if he's making the trip, I know that he's been hurt.

sharrock
03-19-2008, 10:46 AM
Sox players are taking the field and starting to warm up. It looks like something has been worked out.

Again, at least the players have taken action that puts future Japan trips in jeopardy. With all due respect to the Japanese baseball community, Opening Day belongs in the US (or Toronto).

tmorss9
03-19-2008, 11:13 AM
The reasons they proteseted this are exactly why I love the Red Sox. I love when a team goes to extents to take care of their support staff.

Yankeebiscuitfan
03-19-2008, 12:02 PM
I already said this in the Current Event section, but the Red Sox show that they are a TEAM! :bowdown:

ColbyPants
03-19-2008, 12:19 PM
Its always heartening to see the season start with a show of team solidarity. Nice work guys.

JerseySoxFan19
03-19-2008, 01:45 PM
This is what being team is all about. The players feel the coaches should get as much compensation as them and I love how they stood up for the coaches. My bro' thought we were a bunch of greedy expletives and now he's gonna looks stupid, haha, but seriously it's great to see how united we are as a team.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 02:01 PM
A big part of me thinks that this was less a show of team solidarity and more of looking for an excuse to avoid the trip to Japan.

ChrisLDuncan
03-19-2008, 02:23 PM
Was the staff told that they would get the 40K stipend then was it taken away?

Jager
03-19-2008, 02:33 PM
Yes, Tito Francona had told everyone that they would get the money, and then found out yesterday that somehow MLB had backed out of that without telling anyone.


For the players it's not a big deal really, but for some coaches, and other help that's a ton of money. They gave the example on WEEI today that one of the bullpen help, only make $30,000 a year, and if you're promised an extra $40,000 for going to Japan three months ago, you probably make some plans for that money, so that was the biggest problem they had. The coaches were getting screwed, and had no means to dispute it. Luckily the Sox players put their foot down, and got this done for them. Great team solidarity. This is what a team is all about. It makes me proud to be a Sox fan.

ChrisLDuncan
03-19-2008, 02:46 PM
Yes, Tito Francona had told everyone that they would get the money, and then found out yesterday that somehow MLB had backed out of that without telling anyone.


There is a difference between Francona telling someone something, and the MLB telling them something.


http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20080319_japan.5f3f1b9.html

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/ (Caradro's)

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/03/youkilis_addres.html (Youkilis' take on this)

Imgran
03-19-2008, 03:15 PM
I'll take the team, as a team, having the coaching staff's backs in a dispute with MLB over some scrub 1Bman slicing a 3 inch cut into Iwamura's thigh with his cleats as a symbol of what the team is prepared to stand for this year.

Jager
03-19-2008, 03:33 PM
There is a difference between Francona telling someone something, and the MLB telling them something.



I know there's a difference, but MLB agreed to those terms, then tried to back out. Everyone was expecting that, and that's why they threatened not to play. This wasn't something that the players tried to throw in afterwards, this was agreed upon, and then for some reason MLB thought they could get away with backing out of it.

Westlake
03-19-2008, 03:35 PM
A big part of me thinks that this was less a show of team solidarity and more of looking for an excuse to avoid the trip to Japan.

Part of me thinks you just try and find the bad angle in every story. I knew they knew MLB would give in, it wasn't going to stop the trip.

efin98
03-19-2008, 05:57 PM
Part of me thinks you just try and find the bad angle in every story. I knew they knew MLB would give in, it wasn't going to stop the trip.

Except that angle is more likely the true reason behind the boycott.

I didn't believe for a second this was all about the coaches, if it was then why the hell didn't the players forgo their stipends as an act of unity or offer part of their own stipend to make up for the shortcoming?

Westlake
03-19-2008, 06:30 PM
Except that angle is more likely the true reason behind the boycott.

I didn't believe for a second this was all about the coaches, if it was then why the hell didn't the players forgo their stipends as an act of unity or offer part of their own stipend to make up for the shortcoming?

You really think they would have waited this long to try and not go to Japan? I think everyone is digging too far down trying to find something that doesn't exist.

Why should the players have to give up their own money when it should be MLB or the team paying for it. That doesn't make sense.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 08:47 PM
You really think they would have waited this long to try and not go to Japan? I think everyone is digging too far down trying to find something that doesn't exist.

Why should the players have to give up their own money when it should be MLB or the team paying for it. That doesn't make sense.

I would think this was more about team solidarity if the players were willing to make up these (in my mind ridiculous) coaches stipends out of their own pockets.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 08:50 PM
Part of me thinks you just try and find the bad angle in every story. I knew they knew MLB would give in, it wasn't going to stop the trip.

A big part of me thinks that stories that are published about athletes doing noble things for public consumption, and that fans can conviently rally around, are mostly contrived.

efin98
03-19-2008, 09:21 PM
You really think they would have waited this long to try and not go to Japan? I think everyone is digging too far down trying to find something that doesn't exist.

Actually I do, now has the biggest impact and basically put a gun to MLB's and the team's head to do what they wanted or else the trip was off.


Why should the players have to give up their own money when it should be MLB or the team paying for it. That doesn't make sense.

Why should MLB be forced to pay bonuses to non-players to do their jobs?

Westlake
03-19-2008, 09:26 PM
Why should MLB be forced to pay bonuses to non-players to do their jobs?

How is this a bonus?

Westlake
03-19-2008, 09:27 PM
I would think this was more about team solidarity if the players were willing to make up these (in my mind ridiculous) coaches stipends out of their own pockets.

They did. They ended up giving them 20 grand, last I read.

efin98
03-19-2008, 09:49 PM
How is this a bonus?

It's additional money on top of what they are already going to get for working the season and spring training- a bonus to me.

Call it a stipend, call it a bonus, call it whatever you want but it's additional money on top of what they will already be making.

Westlake
03-19-2008, 10:04 PM
It's additional money on top of what they are already going to get for working the season and spring training- a bonus to me.

Call it a stipend, call it a bonus, call it whatever you want but it's additional money on top of what they will already be making.

I'm guessing its probably because they have to travel to Japan when other coaches don't. Sounds like they should be getting paid for doing something other coaches don't have to do.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 10:08 PM
I'm guessing its probably because they have to travel to Japan when other coaches don't. Sounds like they should be getting paid for doing something other coaches don't have to do.

What does travelling to Japan have to do with it? Isn't being on the road a prerequisite for working with a Major League team?

Westlake
03-19-2008, 10:13 PM
What does travelling to Japan have to do with it? Isn't being on the road a prerequisite for working with a Major League team?

You mean other than the fact that it's like 4-5 thousand miles further away than most of their distant roadtrips? I usually end up spending more money when i'm out of the country than when I take a trip to a place like Baltimore or St. Paul, I don't know about you...

I don't see what is so unreasonable about coaches getting the same stipend the players got. Especially when they make CONSIDERABLY less money in the first place.

efin98
03-19-2008, 10:14 PM
I'm guessing its probably because they have to travel to Japan when other coaches don't. Sounds like they should be getting paid for doing something other coaches don't have to do.

Yes, so they are looking for something more for doing their jobs in the first place- a bonus.

efin98
03-19-2008, 10:16 PM
You mean other than the fact that it's like 4-5 thousand miles further away than most of their distant roadtrips? I usually end up spending more money when i'm out of the country than when I take a trip to a place like Baltimore or St. Paul.

So they have to be compensated because they have to spend more to have fun or buy things that aren't needed for why they are there in the first place(support the team/coach the team)?

Westlake
03-19-2008, 10:18 PM
Yes, so they are looking for something more for doing their jobs in the first place- a bonus.

Because they are doing more than other coaches in the league, you mean? If you get called on to work out of the country, are you going to be completely cool with getting no money for this? Are you going to be fine having to pay your way while you're over there even though the only reason you are there is because your work sent YOU (and not the rest of the employees) over there? I realize these guys go on the road often, but Japan is a whole other story, IMO.

Poor MLB, man. They got ripped off. These millionaire coaches are whiny babies! Oh wait, they aren't millionaires.... Next time some of your co-workers get a stipend, and you don't, let's see if you complain about it or not.

Its weird how this has gone from "the players just dont want to go to Japan! why dont they just give them money!" to... "Wait, they did give them money? Um, they didn't deserve it!"

If you ever run a company, and send employees on a business trip to Japan, try sending them without a stipend and see how that flies.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 10:24 PM
You mean other than the fact that it's like 4-5 thousand miles further away than most of their distant roadtrips? I usually end up spending more money when i'm out of the country than when I take a trip to a place like Baltimore or St. Paul, I don't know about you...

I don't see what is so unreasonable about coaches getting the same stipend the players got. Especially when they make CONSIDERABLY less money in the first place.


What exactly are these guys going to have to spend any money on? The fact that it is 5000 miles more than a normal roadtrip is irrelevant. If the cost of travelling is too high, than it's time to find a profession with no travel. The fact that anyone is getting a large stipend for this trip is silly.

Jager
03-19-2008, 10:27 PM
I would think this was more about team solidarity if the players were willing to make up these (in my mind ridiculous) coaches stipends out of their own pockets.



You say that, but the players WERE going to make it up for the coaches. Youk said that early on that the team voted to boycott the trip, and pay the coaches out of their pocket either way. He said that at the very beginning of the day. It still doesn't negate the fact that MLB promised this in the conference call, but then tried to back out, but just FYI, the Sox players DID vote to pay the coaches out of their pockets because this would have hurt the coaches not getting the money alot more than the players.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 10:31 PM
If you get called on to work out of the country, are you going to be completely cool with getting no money for this? Are you going to be fine having to pay your way while you're over there even though the only reason you are there is because your work sent YOU (and not the rest of the employees) over there? I realize these guys go on the road often, but Japan is a whole other story, IMO.

.

I was completely cool with it when I was sent to the Far East as a member of the Navy. I didn't have to pay my own way (and I seriously doubt if these coaches will have pay their own way, either), but I didn't get paid extra for being overseas. Travel was part of that job, just like it is for these coaches.

I would not expect an extra 40 grand if my current company sent me to Japan for less than three weeks.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 10:33 PM
You say that, but the players WERE going to make it up for the coaches. Youk said that early on that the team voted to boycott the trip, and pay the coaches out of their pocket either way. He said that at the very beginning of the day. It still doesn't negate the fact that MLB promised this in the conference call, but then tried to back out, but just FYI, the Sox players DID vote to pay the coaches out of their pockets because this would have hurt the coaches not getting the money alot more than the players.

Giving until it hurt, no doubt. Good sound byte for the players. You'll have to excuse my belief that this is nothing but PR.

Jager
03-19-2008, 10:41 PM
Why should MLB be forced to pay bonuses to non-players to do their jobs?


Hmmm. That's a tough one. How about because the players and MLB agreed upon EVERYONE getting this bonus? That's a pretty good reason to me. $40,000 is a very significant amount of money when a guy doesn't make all that much. Plus when you factor in that since it was AGREED UPON that EVERYONE would get this, then it's likely that the staff had made plans for that money, and possibly already purchased things expecting it. You can twist if however you would like, but the bottom line is that it was agreed upon. I heard Schilling's interview, and he said that at the conference call they brought it up numerous times that EVERYONE (the players, coaches, and all other staff) would get the money. MLB didn't have a leg to stand on in this. Especially when they weren't fighting for money for themselves, but standing up for their coaches and the guys that help behind the scenes, and bust their butts.

Like I said earlier. On WEEI they went into salaries for some of the staff, and the lowest paid guy made only $30,000 a year. So a $40,000 "bonus" as you want to call it, is a ton of money. A guy that makes 30K surely had big plans for an extra 40K. Sure they were still just doing their job, but that has nothing to do with it. They agreed upon EVERYONE getting this money, not just the players. Honestly I don't see how anyone can spin this any other way. This is a classic case of a team getting together and doing the right thing. Not to help themselves, because they were taken care of, but because the people that often go unnoticed were being screwed. Good for the Sox players.

efin98
03-19-2008, 10:42 PM
You say that, but the players WERE going to make it up for the coaches. Youk said that early on that the team voted to boycott the trip, and pay the coaches out of their pocket either way. He said that at the very beginning of the day. It still doesn't negate the fact that MLB promised this in the conference call, but then tried to back out, but just FYI, the Sox players DID vote to pay the coaches out of their pockets because this would have hurt the coaches not getting the money alot more than the players.

That proved my point that it wasn't really about the money, but about the trip itself.

Jager
03-19-2008, 10:45 PM
I was completely cool with it when I was sent to the Far East as a member of the Navy. I didn't have to pay my own way (and I seriously doubt if these coaches will have pay their own way, either), but I didn't get paid extra for being overseas. Travel was part of that job, just like it is for these coaches.

I would not expect an extra 40 grand if my current company sent me to Japan for less than three weeks.


You are looking at it all wrong. Sure you wouldn't expect 40K in that situation, but let's just say that they called you in to the office and said they needed you to go to Japan, and they were willing to pay you 30K, Maybe you even heckled over the price and said 50K, and they offered 40K, and you accepted. Wouldn't you be pissed if the day before your trip they tried to take it back?

efin98
03-19-2008, 10:46 PM
Hmmm. That's a tough one. How about because the players and MLB agreed upon EVERYONE getting this bonus? That's a pretty good reason to me. $40,000 is a very significant amount of money when a guy doesn't make all that much. Plus when you factor in that since it was AGREED UPON that EVERYONE would get this, then it's likely that the staff had made plans for that money, and possibly already purchased things expecting it. You can twist if however you would like, but the bottom line is that it was agreed upon. I heard Schilling's interview, and he said that at the conference call they brought it up numerous times that EVERYONE (the players, coaches, and all other staff) would get the money. MLB didn't have a leg to stand on in this. Especially when they weren't fighting for money for themselves, but standing up for their coaches and the guys that help behind the scenes, and bust their butts.

Like I said earlier. On WEEI they went into salaries for some of the staff, and the lowest paid guy made only $30,000 a year. So a $40,000 "bonus" as you want to call it, is a ton of money. A guy that makes 30K surely had big plans for an extra 40K. Sure they were still just doing their job, but that has nothing to do with it. They agreed upon EVERYONE getting this money, not just the players. Honestly I don't see how anyone can spin this any other way. This is a classic case of a team getting together and doing the right thing. Not to help themselves, because they were taken care of, but because the people that often go unnoticed were being screwed. Good for the Sox players.

It's unfair that they didn't get extra money, fine. But it's unfair to the rest of the coaches and staff that are left behind by the teams while they go on the trip. It's unfair to the coaches and staff on the other teams who aren't getting that money yet are going to do the same amount of work.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 10:47 PM
This is a classic case of a team getting together and doing the right thing. Not to help themselves, because they were taken care of, but because the people that often go unnoticed were being screwed. Good for the Sox players.

I don't see that way. I see it as an excuse to get out of making a trip that is probably being viewed as a major distraction. I think it's classic spin where the players can come off as seen as being generous.

Jager
03-19-2008, 10:48 PM
That proved my point that it wasn't really about the money, but about the trip itself.


Efin, I respect you, and like you as a poster, but this time your logic is WAY OFF! The players knew that there was no way a multi-BILLION dollar industry like MLB was going to cancel a trip that has already cost them Millions because some trainers, staff, and coaches weren't going to get paid. They said that it only ended up being about 1 million dollars. You can't possibly believe that any of the players were dumb enough to believe that MLB wouldn't pay them, especially when it was origionally agreed upon. That's terrible logic.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 10:49 PM
You are looking at it all wrong. Sure you wouldn't expect 40K in that situation, but let's just say that they called you in to the office and said they needed you to go to Japan, and they were willing to pay you 30K, Maybe you even heckled over the price and said 50K, and they offered 40K, and you accepted. Wouldn't you be pissed if the day before your trip they tried to take it back?

Actually, I would expect something like that if I was made an offer that sounded to good to be true. I wouldn't expect to get paid that much for a 20 day assignment.

Jager
03-19-2008, 10:52 PM
It's unfair that they didn't get extra money, fine. But it's unfair to the rest of the coaches and staff that are left behind by the teams while they go on the trip. It's unfair to the coaches and staff on the other teams who aren't getting that money yet are going to do the same amount of work.


Everytime a team has gone to Japan in the past everyone has been paid. There's no reason to think it should have been otherwise. Life isn't fair, but I promise you that if the staff on the teams that are staying behind could negotiate 40k extra into their checks, they would. It's on of the perks for going there. It has nothing to do with whether that aspect is fair. They agreed upon it, and that's how it is. In 2004 the Yankees staff and everyone that went on the trip got paid. I honestly don't even understand what MLB was thinking here.

Jager
03-19-2008, 10:57 PM
Actually, I would expect something like that if I was made an offer that sounded to good to be true. I wouldn't expect to get paid that much for a 20 day assignment.


I'm not even going to argue with you anymore, because you are only trying to be difficult. Why don't you just get out of this forum. You know I'm right about this anyway. Whether you would expect that or not for a 20 day assignment, they had a verbal agreement on this. If I had an agreement that I would get 40K for a 20 day assignment, you can bet I'd be pissed if I didn't get it.

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 11:03 PM
I'm not even going to argue with you anymore, because you are only trying to be difficult. Why don't you just get out of this forum. You know I'm right about this anyway. Whether you would expect that or not for a 20 day assignment, they had a verbal agreement on this. If I had an agreement that I would get 40K for a 20 day assignment, you can bet I'd be pissed if I didn't get it.

Since a verbal agreement is always ironclad, I'm sure you are right. Come to think of it, every wmployer that I've ever had has been completely aboveboard and was always looking out for me.

It's pretty original to ask someone that you don't agree with to leave a forum. Keep up the good work.

efin98
03-19-2008, 11:04 PM
Efin, I respect you, and like you as a poster, but this time your logic is WAY OFF! The players knew that there was no way a multi-BILLION dollar industry like MLB was going to cancel a trip that has already cost them Millions because some trainers, staff, and coaches weren't going to get paid. They said that it only ended up being about 1 million dollars. You can't possibly believe that any of the players were dumb enough to believe that MLB wouldn't pay them, especially when it was origionally agreed upon. That's terrible logic.

And if you believe that it was just about the coaches and staff not being paid what they were supposedly going to be paid then your logic is way off.
Call me a conspiracy nut but I don't believe any of what happened yesterday was about money for a few coaches and staffers, I believe this was a staged event in the works for a while to cancel the trip

EdTarbusz
03-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Call me a conspiracy nut but I don't believe any of what happened yesterday was about money for a few coaches and staffers, I believe this was a staged event in the works for a while to cancel the trip

I agree with you. My guess is that the average member of the Red Sox (or any other team for that matter) doesn't really care about what kind of money the support staff make or is entitled to.

Jager
03-20-2008, 05:48 AM
I think you guys are way off base with that. Do you honestly think that the players are dumb enough that they though an extra million dollars worth of pay for coaches and staff would cancel the trip? You can't possibly be that short sighted. That's stupid. There was no chance baseball would cancel the Japan trip over a million bucks. It's just absurd.

efin98
03-20-2008, 06:09 AM
I think you guys are way off base with that. Do you honestly think that the players are dumb enough that they though an extra million dollars worth of pay for coaches and staff would cancel the trip? You can't possibly be that short sighted. That's stupid. There was no chance baseball would cancel the Japan trip over a million bucks. It's just absurd.

One million to the coaches staff, how many other millions on the rebooked flights, rebooked hotel rooms, reworked schedules at the facilities in Japan etc. that would have had to have been redone because the teams delayed their departures long enough that it could have possibly put things in jeopardy.

Even if it wasn't meant to cancel the trip but instead delay it it's still far from their supposed reason for doing what they did, getting money for the coaches/staff.

I'll be blunt and say that I hate strong arm tactics like that with a vengeance so I'm biased against it so take my opinion appears to support MLB and or the team(I don't). Whatever benevolence that may have been there was lost in their strong arming, so it really didn't make an impact on MLB or the team beyond publicity.

YOUgodofwalks
03-20-2008, 08:32 AM
Some players might not want to make the trip but I believe many are excited about it. I personally would love a trip to Japan where my expenses are being paid, even if it's for work. The Red Sox had to accept to go way back whenever they were planning this. It wasn't forced upon them, they agreed to it, why would they back out now? As soon as they had an agreement in place, they went on business as usual. So based on this is have no reason to believe it was for anything other than the money promised to the coaching staff. Speaking off, I think people are a bit off calling it a "bonus". It's not like everyone's getting 40k to buy a new car or something. It's just for all the expenses they will incur as part of being in Japan for MLB, so why shouldn't MLB pay it? I will agree $40,000 for about 20 days does sound like a bit much, but if it was promised then it should be given and am glad to playes are making up the difference.

ColbyPants
03-20-2008, 11:35 AM
What exactly are these guys going to have to spend any money on? The fact that it is 5000 miles more than a normal roadtrip is irrelevant. If the cost of travelling is too high, than it's time to find a profession with no travel. The fact that anyone is getting a large stipend for this trip is silly.


Why? The MLB is getting a ton of extra money out of the Asian interest that is partly fostered by trips like these, why shouldn't those involved in the trip get more compensation. And if its not for the actual MLB games, how bout for the games against the NPB teams before that.

JerseySoxFan19
03-20-2008, 06:45 PM
I'm with West Lake. I'd be pissed too if I didn't get a li'l extra for flying 5 thousand miles for my job. Efin you know you'd be pissed if you didn't get more money for a trip like that.

Westlake
03-20-2008, 08:01 PM
I think you guys are way off base with that. Do you honestly think that the players are dumb enough that they though an extra million dollars worth of pay for coaches and staff would cancel the trip? You can't possibly be that short sighted. That's stupid. There was no chance baseball would cancel the Japan trip over a million bucks. It's just absurd.

Agreed. The notion that this was a planned/staged event because they players didn't want to go to Japan is just plain stupid, IMO.

Ralph Zig Tyko
03-20-2008, 08:06 PM
Who knew?
http://pushpull.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/december-7th-japanese-attack-pearl/

Bosoxd212
03-26-2008, 05:20 AM
We knew it wouldnt' happen.