1891 NY Big Gorhams

[TonyK]

I am interested in learning more about this great team that Sol White considered the best black team of the 19th Century. He based his opinion on what the majority of black baseball fans thought rather than his personal knowledge about black teams. I believe this team briefly played for Ansonia in the Connecticut State League before the league folded. One source I found gave the team's record as 100-4, with the four losses being to New Brunswick, the Univ. of Vermont, Glens Falls, and to the Little Gorhams.

Using Sol White's recognition of which black ballplayers could have played in the majors, I noted that six Big Gorhams starters could have played ML ball: William Selden, George Stovey, Clarence Williams, Art Thomas, Frank Grant, and Sol White (I nominated him based on his career). I think the main reason why White nominated this team was the pitching duo of William Selden and George Stovey who each probably won over 30 games that year.

Has there been any research done recently on this team? What teams did they defeat and do we have any player records?

[Paul Wendt]

I am interested in learning more about this great team that Sol White considered the best black team of the 19th Century. He based his opinion on what the majority of black baseball fans thought rather than his personal knowledge about black teams.
He doesn't say that precisely and I don't believe he means it. He says that it is "the opinion of the majority of fans that have followed colored baseball from its infancy" but that doesn't seem epistemic to me. It doesn't mean that White's selection is based on fan opinion; it is a selling point for his judgment rather than an alternative to his judgment.


I believe this team briefly played for Ansonia in the Connecticut State League before the league folded. One source I found gave the team's record as 100-4, with the four losses being to New Brunswick, the Univ. of Vermont, Glens Falls, and to the Little Gorhams.
I suppose there is no good foundation for the 100-4 W-L record, although the explicit list of four defeats makes me wonder. Anyway, for a top pro team there were no "good beatings" by any of those four. The list of four supports what you may guess: thanks to the American people generally drawing color lines, and organized baseball leagues expanding their regular schedules, it was getting more difficult for colored teams to make good matches.

The Cuban Giants represented Ansonia in the Connecticut League. The New York Gorhams, sometimes based in Philadelphia, were the strongest rival black team. Both teams played in the Middle States League of 1889.

I understand that the "Big Gorhams" were the Gorhams remade and renamed in aftermath of the CT League demise. In my own copy of the U Nebraska edition of White's book I have marked four of the ten listed "Gorhams of 1891" (page 89, where White names them and lists them beside the "Phila. Giants of 1905").
: Clarence Williams, George Stovey, Sol White, Frank Grant
My note is, "also played for Cuban Giants in Connecticut State League, midseason signings by Davis for Gorhams."

Appendix 16 of that edition is Bob Davids, "Chronological listing of black players in 19th-century black players in organized baseball." (Davids was the founder of SABR, a fine researcher and the person best placed to pull together miscellaneous player-team affiliations uncovered by any of the thousands of society members.) For 1891 he lists 16 men for 1891, Cuban Giants, Ansonia.

At a glance I believe those two lists of 10 and 16 players overlap only in the four I have marked in the book and listed above --catcher, pitcher, second and short in White's lineup for the Gorhams. If the overlap is only four then probably Davids' listing is my source.

So the Big Gorhams were essentially an all-star team of black baseball, formed for part of one season when things (baseball teams and leagues) were falling apart. If they lost one game to the Little Gorhams, I suppose that the latter were the leftovers from the New York Gorhams. Who knows maybe 25 players with overlap appeared in one or more games for the Cuban Giants and (Little) Gorhams early in the season when ambitions were higher and leagues were greater in number.
And I wonder how many times the Big Gorhams beat the Little Gorhams?

The U Nebraska edition is worth purchasing if you have some other edition of Sol White's book that includes nothing but the original text, or the original text and photos. I have seen the facsimile edition (also produced in the 1990s iirc); believe me, if you have it, but the other and mark up the other.


... I think the main reason why White nominated this team was the pitching duo of William Selden and George Stovey who each probably won over 30 games that year.
See? You agree, it is in his book as his judgment not the individual and collective opinion of fans!

Has there been any research done recently on this team? What teams did they defeat and do we have any player records?
any research - I doubt it

game logs and player records - no

That is, according to my phone poll of about five experts a few years ago, no one knew of any research underway on team and player records so early as 1891, nor any past compilations. None earlier than the 19-aughts except Greg Bond working on the Page Fence Giants, ~1895-1898.

[Paul Wendt]

The Negro Leagues Book (SABR, 1994, by its NLC research committee) lists 1891
Ansonia Cuban Giants - twelve players with eight sublisted as regulars
New York Big Gorhams - ten players all regulars

The "Chronological listing" by Bob Davids covers everyone known to play in one game during the championship season of some league in organized baseball. Some other sources may cover the entire calendar year. I'm sure some of them try to cover at least the full ballpark season, meaning the calendar year with exceptions for "ice baseball" and "indoor baseball", if any. [This paragraph revised 2009-0423, trying again to say what I mean.]

I will leave the book out where I can't miss it tonight. Now I plan to specify further at that time.

. . .
Here are the two rosters published in The Negro Leagues Book, page 54.

BigG CubanG name CubanG BigG

M -- Ambrose Davis
-- OF Frank Bell
-- OF Ben Boyd
-- of Cam?
-- of George Douglas
-- 1B Jack Frye, p
ss 2B Frank Grant
3b -- Andrew Jackson
-- OF Bob Jackson
cf -- Oscar Jackson
-- 2b William Jackson, (of)
p. -- William H. Malone, of
-- P. John Nelson, of
p. -- William H. Selden, of
p. p. George W. Stovey, (of), of
of -- Arthur Thomas, c
2b 3B Sol White
c. C. Clarence Williams, of
1b -- George Williams

The first column gives fielding positions for the New York Gorhams, ten regulars and a manager. The second gives fielding positions for the Cuban Giants, eight regulars (uppercase) and four secondary players at their positions (lowercase). Following their surnames are the listed secondary and tertiary positions for the Cubes (lowercase and parenthetical), and the listed secondary positions for the Gorhams (lowercase).

For example: George Stovey
- primary pitcher for the Gorhams
- secondary pitcher for the Cubes
- tertiary outfielder for the Cubes
- secondary outfielder for the Gorhams

[TonyK]

I suppose there is no good foundation for the 100-4 W-L record, although the explicit list of four defeats makes me wonder. Anyway, for a top pro team there were no "good beatings" by any of those four. The list of four supports what you may guess: thanks to the American people generally drawing color lines, and organized baseball leagues expanding their regular schedules, it was getting more difficult for colored teams to make good matches.

The Cuban Giants represented Ansonia in the Connecticut League. The New York Gorhams, sometimes based in Philadelphia, were the strongest rival black team. Both teams played in the Middle States League of 1889.

I understand that the "Big Gorhams" were the Gorhams remade and renamed in aftermath of the CT League demise. In my own copy of the U Nebraska edition of White's book I have marked four of the ten listed "Gorhams of 1891" (page 89, where White names them and lists them beside the "Phila. Giants of 1905").
: Clarence Williams, George Stovey, Sol White, Frank Grant
My note is, "also played for Cuban Giants in Connecticut State League, midseason signings by Davis for Gorhams."

Appendix 16 of that edition is Bob Davids, "Chronological listing of black players in 19th-century black players in organized baseball." (Davids was the founder of SABR, a fine researcher and the person best placed to pull together miscellaneous player-team affiliations uncovered by any of the thousands of society members.) For 1891 he lists 16 men for 1891, Cuban Giants, Ansonia.

At a glance I believe those two lists of 10 and 16 players overlap only in the four I have marked in the book and listed above --catcher, pitcher, second and short in White's lineup for the Gorhams. If the overlap is only four then probably Davids' listing is my source.

So the Big Gorhams were essentially an all-star team of black baseball, formed for part of one season when things (baseball teams and leagues) were falling apart. If they lost one game to the Little Gorhams, I suppose that the latter were the leftovers from the New York Gorhams. Who knows maybe 25 players with overlap appeared in one or more games for the Cuban Giants and (Little) Gorhams early in the season when ambitions were higher and leagues were greater in number.
And I wonder how many times the Big Gorhams beat the Little Gorhams?

The U Nebraska edition is worth purchasing if you have some other edition of Sol White's book that includes nothing but the original text, or the original text and photos. I have seen the facsimile edition (also produced in the 1990s iirc); believe me, if you have it, but the other and mark up the other.


See? You agree, it is in his book as his judgment not the individual and collective opinion of fans!

any research - I doubt it

game logs and player records - no

That is, according to my phone poll of about five experts a few years ago, no one knew of any research underway on team and player records so early as 1891, nor any past compilations. None earlier than the 19-aughts except Greg Bond working on the Page Fence Giants, ~1895-1898.

They reportedly lost their first two games of the season and then went on a 100-2 run the rest of the year. I wonder what their team batting average was in 1891 when you look at the minor league career stats of some of their players:

George Williams .368
Sol White .356
Art Thomas .350
Frank Grant .337
Clarence Williams .300
William Selden .299

Sol White played on many of the top black teams in the 19th Century including the two he considers the best of them all - the 1891 Big Gorhams and the 1894 Cuban Giants. Those two clubs probably won more than 200games between them. I don't know why he added the line about the majority of fans, but he also mentioned that he interviewed the Original Cuban Giants of the 1880's too in his book.

Maybe with the emergence of finding boxscores on the internet someone can begin to compile the record of the Big Gorhams? I know of one fellow researcher who is probably pointing his finger in my direction right now and saying "You!". This type of research project will take thousands of hours and I won't have that time for three or four years unfortunately. It would make a fascinating project.

Thank you for including the player's names. I met Bob Davids once, and like Sol White, his unassuming kind demeanor made it hard for me to recognize that he was the president of a 5,000 member organization.

[TonyK]

<i>The Negro Leagues Book</i> (SABR, 1994, by its NLC research committee) lists 1891
Ansonia Cuban Giants - twelve players with eight sublisted as regulars
New York Big Gorhams - ten players all regulars

The "Chronological listing" by Bob Davids covers everyone known to play in one game during the full baseball season, the calendar year or there may be some exception for "ice baseball" or "indoor baseball", if any.

I will leave the book out where I can't miss it tonight. Now I plan to specify further at that time.

. . .
Here are the two rosters published in The Negro Leagues Book, page 54.

BigG CubanG name CubanG BigG

M -- Ambrose Davis
-- OF Frank Bell
-- OF Ben Boyd
-- of Cam?
-- of George Douglas
-- 1B Jack Frye, p
ss 2B Frank Grant
3b -- Andrew Jackson
-- OF Bob Jackson
cf -- Oscar Jackson
-- 2b William Jackson, (of)
p. -- William H. Malone, of
-- P. John Nelson, of
p. -- William H. Selden, of
p. p. George W. Stovey, (of), of
of -- Arthur Thomas, c
2b 3B Sol White
c. C. Clarence Williams, of
1b -- George Williams

The first column gives fielding positions for the New York Gorhams, ten regulars and a manager. The second gives fielding positions for the Cuban Giants, eight regulars (uppercase) and four secondary players at their positions (lowercase). Following their surnames are the listed secondary and tertiary positions for the Cubes (lowercase and parenthetical), and the listed secondary positions for the Gorhams (lowercase).

For example: George Stovey
- primary pitcher for the Gorhams
- secondary pitcher for the Cubes
- tertiary outfielder for the Cubes
- secondary outfielder for the Gorhams

To add to the list of 1891 Cuban Giants -

Ben Holmes 3B
? Gifford OF/P
? Brown C
Sol White was on their roster on 4/21 & 4/22 and played 2B
Frank Bell: he also played SS

My copy is the 1984 Reprinted Camden House Edition. It has the original's defects. I'm having difficulty locating 1891 CG and Gorham boxscores on the internet. One online source provides NY Clipper papers from 1891-1893 so I'll have to do some homework first so I know which year I'm looking at. Odd that this paper seldom gives the year or the day either.

[Paul Wendt]

Appendix 16 of that edition is Bob Davids, "Chronological listing of black players in 19th-century black players in organized baseball." (Davids was the founder of SABR, a fine researcher and the person best placed to pull together miscellaneous player-team affiliations uncovered by any of the thousands of society members.) For 1891 he lists 16 men for 1891, Cuban Giants, Ansonia.

At a glance I believe those two lists of 10 [Sol White's Big Gorhams] and 16 [Bob Davids' Cuban Giants] players overlap only in the four I have marked in the book and listed above --catcher, pitcher, second and short in White's lineup for the Gorhams. If the overlap is only four then probably Davids' listing is my source.
Yes the overlap is four only.

What about the 12 Cuban Giants listed in The Negro Leagues Book and in my followup here (#3)?

Davids names five men who are not among the twelve.
>>
Brown, outfield (probably Charles or William H.)
Evans, first base (probably George or John)
W.W. Terrill, second base
William Whyte, pitcher
Woods, thirdbase [Ed Woods according to Riley]
<<

12 + 5 = 17
Does The Negro League Book place anyone else among its 12 Ansonia Cuban Giants? No, Davids lists 17, whom I miscounted as 16 a couple days ago. Excuse me.

In the Biographical Encyclopedia, Riley places Ed Woods on the cubes and his timespan for Abe Harrison includes 1891 ("Cuban Giants 1886-1897").

In the Complete Book, John Holway lists ten 1891 Cuban Giants, among the 12 in The Negro Leagues Book --all but Cam and Douglas. He lists William Jackson at shortstop which gives him a complete nine.

Certainly the Cuban Giants played some games outside the CT State League. Davids would not list anyone who played non-league games only but Riley and Holway would list them.

[Paul Wendt]

To add to the list of 1891 Cuban Giants -

Ben Holmes 3B
? Gifford OF/P
? Brown C
Sol White was on their roster on 4/21 & 4/22 and played 2B
Frank Bell: he also played SS
Where have you found these? Not in Sol White, if I understand the nature of the U Nebraska edition. Are they from the NY Clipper (below)?


My copy is the 1984 Reprinted Camden House Edition. It has the original's defects. I'm having difficulty locating 1891 CG and Gorham boxscores on the internet. One online source provides NY Clipper papers from 1891-1893 so I'll have to do some homework first so I know which year I'm looking at. Odd that this paper seldom gives the year or the day either.
If you mean that it doesn't give the year and day --or even the name of the newspaper-- on every page, that may be common in the 19th century. (I have seen it elsewhere but I can't say how commonly.)

[TonyK]

Where have you found these? Not in Sol White, if I understand the nature of the U Nebraska edition. Are they from the NY Clipper (below)?

The two players named Brown (c) and Gifford (of,p) were found in late April, 1891 boxscores from a Troy, NY newspaper. It seems that a few earlier researchers relied on a handful of available boxscores plus what written stories they could find. The work is clearly not complete.

I have found several more Cuban Giant players that are not listed anywhere yet appeared in a boxscore between 1889-1898. My theory is whenever a good local player could be found they were inserted into the lineup immediately. This gave a CG player a needed day off and helped boost attendance since locals wanted to see their star in action. So if you never saw the boxscore you never knew a new player was added for a game or two.

One example is Theodore Pell from Utica, NY. He was a rising young SS who could never compete with either Frank Grant or Sol White. His big hope was to win a position on a new black baseball team. I don't believe he ever did play a full season on a pro black team. But he did play at least one game for the Cuban Giants.

[Paul Wendt]

By the mid 1890s, if not as soon as the representation of Ansonia CT fell through in 1891, the Cuban Giants commonly played in greater New York City on weekends and deeper in NJ, NY, and New England during the week. For example in 1896 the Cuban Giants and X-Giants visited Springfield MA. One of them played in New Hampshire next day (midweek).

I presume that (playing weekends not daily) they were maintaining good audiences in greater New York, such as Weehauken NJ on Sunday, larger than they would get elsewhere in the region.


One example is Theodore Pell from Utica, NY. He was a rising young SS who could never compete with either Frank Grant or Sol White. His big hope was to win a position on a new black baseball team. I don't believe he ever did play a full season on a pro black team. But he did play at least one game for the Cuban Giants.
Tony, Is this your reading of thin evidence or does the newspaper include this kind of reporting. Is it from a Utica newspaper, covering the prospects of a local man as a local news story, in effect?

What is your general source? Is it one of the projects to digitize historical newspapers. Is it some upstate New York public library network? If New York State has a project to cover all of the newspaper in its territory, or even those in the state library, that will be very good for research on baseball games.

[TonyK]

Tony, Is this your reading of thin evidence or does the newspaper include this kind of reporting. Is it from a Utica newspaper, covering the prospects of a local man as a local news story, in effect?

What is your general source?

I have probably read at least twenty different NY, PA, and Canadian newspapers on microfilm that covered CG games over the last ten years. I wish NY had the funds to allow free access to newspaper archives throughout the state. Like you I search for anything there is available.

Theodore Pell and other black players like him will probably be the final chapter in a history of early black baseball. Who were these unknown players that were not mentioned on rosters, or if they were, have a question mark instead of a first name. I know of three black players from NY State who are not listed on team rosters yet appeared on Cuban Giants clubs.

Pell had a relative (father?) that played on the 1876 Utica Fearless team. Pell played at least one game for the CG and perhaps more. The local newspaper reported that Pell's best chance to play black pro baseball would be if a second team like the CG organized for the following season. Obviously Sol White and Frank Grant had locks on the 2B and SS positions. Pell got his tryout in RF even though he was a shortstop. I don't know what happened to him.

[TonyK]

By the mid 1890s, if not as soon as the representation of Ansonia CT fell through in 1891, the Cuban Giants commonly played in greater New York City on weekends and deeper in NJ, NY, and New England during the week. For example in 1896 the Cuban Giants and X-Giants visited Springfield MA. One of them played in New Hampshire next day (midweek).

I presume that (playing weekends not daily) they were maintaining good audiences in greater New York, such as Weehauken NJ on Sunday, larger than they would get elsewhere in the region.

I hadn't thought of where they went on off days since they played 100 to 149 games per year. I do know that they played some games on Sundays. I recently read two preseason articles that said they would be based out of North Adams, MA one year and Johnstown, NY a different year. If it was true then maybe a local newspaper in either town followed them closely?

Were they playing the Orange Athletic Club in Weehauken? Crowds of 5,000 watched two CG-Orange games in 1895.

[TonyK]

My present roster count is now at 27 players on the 1891 Cuban Giants. After looking over several boxscores I have added these new faces:

BARTON, CF
WILLIAMS, 1B
F. MILLER, P
LOVILL, 2B
DAY, RF
STANTON, RF/C
CHAMBERLAIN, RF
H. CATO, OF
TRUSTY, 3B
A. HARRISON, SS
W. SELDEN, P

From the boxscores two player's positions were reversed...Sol White played 2B and Frank Grant played 3B, not the other way around. The player named CAM is number 27 on the roster and hasn't appeared in a boxscore yet. STOVEY is called STONEY in one boxscore, and GRANT is called GARNET in one boxscore.

[Paul Wendt]

Hi, Tony
I don't count 27 but it isn't crucial now. All of these games identify the team as Cuban Giants, or as Ansonia, no little or big or unmodified Gorhams. Is that right? Do you have any games between Cubes(or Ansonia) and Gorhams?


I hadn't thought of where they went on off days since they played 100 to 149 games per year. I do know that they played some games on Sundays. I recently read two preseason articles that said they would be based out of North Adams, MA one year and Johnstown, NY a different year. If it was true then maybe a local newspaper in either town followed them closely?

Were they playing the Orange Athletic Club in Weehauken? Crowds of 5,000 watched two CG-Orange games in 1895.
Do you have dates for those remarks about where they would be based?

My reference to play at Weehauken on Sundays is general. Cuban Giants, X Giants, or both played there in 1896 or so. The West New York club was based there, I think, and may have played every Sunday.

Sunday was the big day for amateur and semipro baseball in Chicago around 1900. That includes the black professional teams. In 1887 the police halted a Cuban Giants game at Ridgewood, LI (now in Queens or Brooklyn). I don't have data regarding Sunday play, neither year-by-year nor month-by-month in 1887. Some times & places where there were legal restrictions on Sunday baseball, I'm sure, the traveling black pro teams were permitted to play on their usual commercial basis. --probably where and when local semipro teams were permitted.

[VIBaseball]

Tony and Paul -- the estimable S.K. Govern managed the Big Gorhams in 1891. Ambrose Davis hired him.

Plenty of detail on this and other aspects of the team can be found in Michael Lomax's book Black Baseball Entrepreneurs, 1860-1901.

[TonyK]

Hi, Tony
I don't count 27 but it isn't crucial now. All of these games identify the team as Cuban Giants, or as Ansonia, no little or big or unmodified Gorhams. Is that right? Do you have any games between Cubes(or Ansonia) and Gorhams?


Do you have dates for those remarks about where they would be based?

My reference to play at Weehauken on Sundays is general. Cuban Giants, X Giants, or both played there in 1896 or so. The West New York club was based there, I think, and may have played every Sunday.

Sunday was the big day for amateur and semipro baseball in Chicago around 1900. That includes the black professional teams. In 1887 the police halted a Cuban Giants game at Ridgewood, LI (now in Queens or Brooklyn). I don't have data regarding Sunday play, neither year-by-year nor month-by-month in 1887. Some times & places where there were legal restrictions on Sunday baseball, I'm sure, the traveling black pro teams were permitted to play on their usual commercial basis. --probably where and when local semipro teams were permitted.

According to Sp. Life, the 1896 Cuban Giants used the Grand Street Athletic Grounds in Brooklyn as their Sunday grounds. Both the 1896 CG and X-Giants were based out of New York City.

[TonyK]

Tony and Paul -- the estimable S.K. Govern managed the Big Gorhams in 1891. Ambrose Davis hired him.

Plenty of detail on this and other aspects of the team can be found in Michael Lomax's book Black Baseball Entrepreneurs, 1860-1901.

I will check it out. Thank you.

[Paul Wendt]

I recently read two preseason articles that said they would be based out of North Adams, MA one year and Johnstown, NY a different year. If it was true then maybe a local newspaper in either town followed them closely?
Which years were those?
I am skeptical but I will be happy to check Springfield newspapers for the season when they may have tried North Adams.

[VIBaseball]

Guys: go to probaseballarchive.com and search on "North Adams" and "Cuban" -- the North Adams Transcript is part of the package there. In just a couple of minutes, I've already seen several accounts of the Cuban X- Giants playing there in 1897 and 1898.

Of particular interest is a story from June 1, 1898 entitled "No More Cubans" -- i.e., they left the town at that time.

Lomax (p. 148) also states that the team established a base there in 1896.

One point I'd like to resolve is whether S.K. Govern ever managed the X-Giants. Based on my reading of Lomax, he did not. However, he is listed in Riley's encyclopedia, as well as the Negro Leagues Book.

[TonyK]

QUOTE=VIBaseball;1511576]Tony and Paul -- the estimable S.K. Govern managed the Big Gorhams in 1891. Ambrose Davis hired him.

Plenty of detail on this and other aspects of the team can be found in Michael Lomax's book Black Baseball Entrepreneurs, 1860-1901.[/QUOTE]

From Michael Lomax's book I note the following for the 1891 CG and Gorhams: Both teams began the season prepared to play some home games in the NYC area against amatuer and semi-pro clubs, plus semi-pro games in the New York Semi-Pro League, and also minor league games in the Connecticut League. They tried to accomplish this by signing extra players and actually having two teams - one for local games against weaker competition, and one for road games in the two leagues they were in.

George Stovey jumped from the CG to the Gorhams on May 20th beginning the exodus that formed the 1891 Big Gorhams. By July 1st the Big Gorhams had the best players from both teams. The Connecticut League disbanded on 6/15 and the NY Semi-Pro League disbanded on 7/19. This marked the end of black teams participating in minor leagues.

The 1891 Big Gorhams average attendance at games at leased grounds in the NY City area was 1,089 fans. Admission was 20 cents. Attendance at games outside of the city was lower.

What I have learned so far is the Cuban Giants and the Gorhams developed a formula for succeeding each season by playing mainly road games against mostly the same teams year after year. Their comical routines began as early as 1885 and every now and then a reporter might comment about some of them. They played as many as 149 games a season and often won between 100 to 124 of them. They also may have won some additional games down in Florida or Cuba in the winter months.

[Paul Wendt]

Thanks, I must read that book. I believe I have it somewhere, still in shrinkwrap.

Compared with New York in 1891, I feel sure that semipro and amateur baseball were stronger in Chicago around the turn of the century. Nevertheless the colored, professional Unions and Columbia Giants also played many games on the road, beyond the suburbs. Some road trips were about a month long, I believe.

[TonyK]

Thanks, I must read that book. I believe I have it somewhere, still in shrinkwrap.

Compared with New York in 1891, I feel sure that semipro and amateur baseball were stronger in Chicago around the turn of the century. Nevertheless the colored, professional Unions and Columbia Giants also played many games on the road, beyond the suburbs. Some road trips were about a month long, I believe.

The book is only 178 pages long but I've had to reread some of it as it is borrowed thru ILL. There is a lot of information about the Chicago area black teams and semipro teams.

[TonyK]

Sol White's numbers are not adding up. He wrote, "they played over one hundred games and lost four." The Big Gorhams first lost to the New Brunswick, NJ semi-pros, then to the University of Vermont, followed by their third loss "over 30 days later" to Glens Falls, NY, and finally to the Little Gorhams according to White.

By June 14th, 1891, the Gorhams had suffered five losses in the NY Semi-Pro League shortly before it folded. The Gorhams became the Big Gorhams right after that. So if we begin with June 15th, and count 100 days, we come to September 25th (if we assume they had no days off or games rained out). Somewhere during this time frame are the four losses. But they lost to Cape May on 9/1. And then they lost to Camden on 10/2.

Some of the possibilities are Sol White was wrong about the Big Gorhams won-loss record, or he got the names of the teams mixed up in his book 16 years later, or my timeline is way off.

[Brian McKenna]

As the Ansonia representative in the Conn State Lg, I have the Big Giorhams at 8-10 in 1891 before the league disbanded. Is this wrong?

[TonyK]

As the Ansonia representative in the Conn State Lg, I have the Big Giorhams at 8-10 in 1891 before the league disbanded. Is this wrong?

Unfortunately I don't know the answer to that. A team known as the Gorhams was routinely beaten by the Cuban Giants as well as teams in the NY City Semipro League prior to June 15th. They probably had a sub-.500 won-loss record. Where did you find the info that they had a 8-10 record in the Conn. League?

The Gorhams began signing Cuban Giants players and soon called themselves the Big Gorhams. I don't know the date when this new team began playing games.

The point I am making is Sol White wrote that this new team went on to have an incredible 96-4 record but I have already found one loss to a team that he hadn't mentioned in his book. I don't expect to seriously study the Big Gorhams for at least another year or so. If they lost to the Univ of Vermont it should be easy to verify through the campus newspaper. I guess we won't have an answer for awhile.

[TonyK]

1891 Gorhams

George Williams, 1B, Capt
Sol White, 2B
Frank Grant, SS
Andrew Jackson, 3B
William Selden, P, OF
Oscar Jackson, CF
George Stovey, P, OF
William Malone, P, OF
Frank Miller, P, OF
Clarence Williams, C
Art Thomas, 1B, C
George Barton, C
Windsor Terrill, SS
Henry Gant, RF
Ed Woods, SS
George Evans, 2B
George Freeman, OF
Frank Bell, SS
Ambrose Davis, RF
Ben Holmes, 3B
William Dickerson, RF
Nat Collins, SS
? Leon, LF
Ben Boyd, CF
? Nelson, SS
? Shortz, RF
? Poindexter, P
? Smith, CF
Ed Chamberlain, 1B
? Winters, RF

The total number of players is 30 so far. I think some of these players also played on the Pittsburgh Keystones.

On 8/15/91 the Gorhams shut out the Cape May team composed of mostly Ivy League players 5-0. President Benjamin Harrison (I'm not positive if he was the President in 1891) watched the game up until the 9th inning when he had to leave. William Selden pitched a 6-hit shutout with strong support behind him led by infielders Frank Grant, Andrew Jackson, and Sol White. His teammates made no errors which was a rare occurrence in the 1890's.

On 8/20/91 the Gorhams lost to the Univ. of Vermont 3-2 ending a reported 51-game win streak. * Vermont pitcher Bert Abbey struck out 9 Gorhams and gave up only 5 hits. Abbey would pitch in the majors beginning in 1892. His teammate Arlie Pond would also later pitch in the majors.

On 8/21/91 the Gorhams lost their second in a row 9-8 to Glen Falls, NY. I'm searching for a boxscore of the game.

On 9/1/91 the Gorhams lost to Cape May 3-2.

On 9/7/91 the Gorhams lost to the Yonkers Athletic Club 8-5.

In October, the team had two losses to Camden and to NY (NL). I suspect Sol White was not considering these games when he wrote about the team's season. White last played for the Gorhams on 9/27 based on research so far.

* The winning streak has been reported as 41 games too and the Sporting Life poo-pooed it saying it was against mostly weak amatuer and semi-pro teams.

[TonyK]

Today I updated the player list in Post #25 bringing the total now up to 29. This appears to be one of George Stovey's best seasons.

[TonyK]

1891 Cuban Giants Roster:

Frank Grant
Sol White
Clarence Williams
George Stovey
William Jackson
John Nelson
Jack Frye
Ben Boyd
Bob Jackson
George Douglass
Frank Bell
George Barton
Windsor Terrill
George Evans
Ed Chamberlain
Frank Miller
Eddie Day
? Mulcahy
? Watkins
Charles Brown
? Stanton
Jim Malson
Harry Cato
George Freeman
Henry Gant
Billy Whyte
? Gifford
Ben Holmes
Job Trusty
Nat Collins
Abe Harrison
? Paige
Ambrose Davis
? Cook
? Baker
Yeoman Fisher
? Fager
? Lovill
? Robinson
? Paul

Note: Several players were also with the 1891 Gorhams. I suspect Mulcahy was a white semi-pro player on loan by Owner J.M. Bright from his Jersey Blues team for one game on Sept. 13th.