1953 Best of Baseball Election [Archive]

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jalbright

08-01-2009, 05:44 AM

This is our eighteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT August 14, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1951 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=91981)

jalbright

08-01-2009, 05:45 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

08-01-2009, 05:47 AM

The players who become eligible in 1953 are:

Brown , Ray
Chapman , Ben
Ferrell , Wes
Gomez , Lefty
Jurges , Billy
Lombardi , Ernie
Lopez , Al
Moore , Jo-Jo
Pearson , Monte
Rolfe , Red
Selkirk , George
Wells , Willie
Werber , Billy

On the contributor side, J. G. Taylor Spink and Ty Tyson join the list of eligibles.

jalbright

08-01-2009, 05:50 AM

The 1952 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Players…………… votes points
Leonard, Buck 12 94
Jackson , Joe 5 50
Magee , Sherry 9 50
Wheat , Zack 9 46
Radbourn , C 7 42
Bell, Cool 7 39
Lyons , Ted 8 35
Keeler , Willie 4 31
Waddell , Rube 6 27
Start , Joe 4 24
Foster, Willie 5 20
Ruffing , Red 4 19
Johnson , HR 5 17
Bennett , C 2 14
Groh , Heinie 3 14
Sutton , Ezra 2 14
Traynor , Pie 3 13
Klein, Chuck 2 11
McPhee , Bid 3 11
Thompson , S 1 11
Flick , Elmer 3 10
Joss , Addie 1 10
Mackey, Biz 2 10
Terry , Bill 3 10
Stovey , Harry 2 9
Caruthers , B 1 7
Coveleski , S 2 7
Grant , Frank 2 7
Gore , George 1 6
Maranville , R 1 5
Berger , Wally 1 3
Hill , Pete……. 1 3
Smith, Hilton 1 3
Carey , Max 1 2
Faber , Red 1 2
Galvin , Pud 1 1
Jennings , H 1 1

The 1952 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Contributors….. votes points
Hanlon , Ned 9 24
Landis , K 6 23
Commiskey , C 8 22
Posey, Cum 5 14
Spink, Albert 4 13
Pearce, Dickey 1 5
Selee , Frank 3 5
Taylor , C. I. 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 4
Chance , Frank 1 3
Doubleday , A 1 3
Bolden, Ed 1 2
Wilkinson, JL 1 2
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1
Huggins , M 1 1

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

08-01-2009, 05:55 AM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Jim O'Rourke
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Pop Lloyd
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Connie Mack
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

jalbright

08-01-2009, 06:09 AM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bell , Cool Papa
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Brown , Ray
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Derringer , Paul
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Herman , Babe
Herzog , Buck
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Buck
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Mackey , Biz
Magee , Sherry
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Welch , Mickey
Wells , Willie
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Griffith , Clark
Hanlon , Ned
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Landis , Kenesaw
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Spin, J. G. Taylor
Spink, Albert
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

jalbright

08-01-2009, 06:16 AM

My ballot:

Players
1. Willie Wells
2. Sherry Magee
3. Ray Brown
4. Zack Wheat
5. Buck Leonard
6. Ted Lyons
7. Cool Papa Bell
8. Red Ruffing
9. Rube Waddell
10. Willie Foster
11. Home Run Johnson
12. Harry Stovey

Contributors
1. Kennesaw Landis
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Cum Posey
4. J. G. Taylor Spink
5. Charlie Commiskey

Willie Wells comes in at #1 and Ray Brown at #3, and Harry Stovey returns at #12. I moved Buck Leonard up several slots as well. On the contributor side, J. G. Taylor Spink comes in at #4.

Brad Harris

08-01-2009, 07:10 AM

Rankings
1. Buck Leonard
2. Willie Wells
3. Sherry Magee
4. Ray Brown
5. Zack Wheat
6. Ted Lyons
7. Joe Start
8. Rube Waddell
9. Ezra Sutton
10. Red Ruffing
11. Home Run Johnson
12. Cool Papa Bell

Contributors
1. J.G. Taylor Spink
2. Kenesaw M. Landis
3. Charles Comiskey
4. Frank Selee
5. Ned Hanlon

leecemark

08-01-2009, 07:45 AM

1) Buck Leonard
2) Charlie Bennett
3) Charlie Radbourne
4) Rube Waddell
5) Sherry Magee
6) Ted Lyons
7) Zack Wheat
8) Willie Foster
9) Home Run Johnson
10) Willie Wells
11) Ray Brown
12) Wes Ferrell

1) Dickey Pearce
2) Commissioner Landis
3) Charlie Commiskey
4) Ned Hanlon
5) Cum Posey

jjpm74

08-01-2009, 08:20 AM

Players:

1. Ezra Sutton
2. Joe Start
3. Red Ruffing
4. Willie Wells
5. Charlie Bennett
6. Rabbit Maranville
7. Pie Traynor
8. Buck Leonard
9. Cool Papa Bell
10. Ted Lyons
11. Zach Wheat
12. Sherry Magee

Contributors:

1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Cum Posey
3. Charley Comiskey
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Dickey Pearce

dgarza

08-01-2009, 11:51 AM

Players

1. Sam Thompson
2. Joe Jackson
3. Willie Keeler
4. Chuck Klein
5. Charley Radbourn
6. Harry Stovey
7. Zack Wheat
8. Buck Leonard
9. Bill Terry
10. Hugh Duffy
11. Pud Galvin
12. Earl Averill

Contributors

1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Abner Doubleday
3. Charles Commiskey
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Charles Conlon

Tiboreau

08-01-2009, 11:58 AM

1. Buck Leonard
2. Ray Brown
3. Ted Lyons
4. Willie Wells
5. Elmer Flick
6. Willie Foster
7. Grant "Home Run" Johnson
8. Red Ruffing
9. Pete Hill
10. Wes Ferrell
11. Heinie Groh
12. Hughie Jennings

Dogdaze

08-02-2009, 10:37 AM

Players:

1. Willie Wells
2. Zack Wheat
3. Buck Leonard
4. Willie Foster
5. Cool Papa Bell
6. Old Hoss Radbourn
7. Biz Mackey
8. Hilton Smith
9. Ray Brown
10. Frank Grant
11. Sherry Magee
12. Home Run Johnson

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Charles Comiskey
5. Ned Hanlon

Domenic

08-02-2009, 03:22 PM

01. Sherry Magee
02. Joe Jackson
03. Buck Leonard
04. Heinie Groh
05. Cool Papa Bell
06. Willie Wells
07. Ray Brown
08. Zack Wheat
09. Rube Waddell
10. Wally Berger
11. Willie Foster
12. Ted Lyons

01. C.I. Taylor
02. Kenesaw Landis
03. Ned Hanlon
04. Cum Posey
05. Miller Huggins

PVNICK

08-03-2009, 04:42 AM

1. Hoss Radbourne
2. Pie Traynor
3. Bob Caruthers
4. Willie Keeler
5. Stan Coveleski
6. Bill Terry
7. Sherry Magee
8. Cool Papa Bell
9. Zack Wheat
10. Buck Leonard
11. Joe Jackson
12. Ray Brown

1. Albert Spink
2. Landis
3. Hanlon
4. Selee
5. Huggins

Captain Cold Nose

08-03-2009, 09:02 AM

1. Buck Leonard
2. Willie Keeler
3. Cool Papa Bell
4. Charles Radbourne
5. Harry Stovey
6. Sherry Magee
7. Zack Wheat
8. Max Carey
9. Ted Lyons
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Rube Waddell
12. Sam Thompson

Contributors

1. Ned Hanlon
2. Charles Comiskey
3. Frank Chance
4. Kenesaw Landis
5. Alfred Spink

J W

08-03-2009, 09:13 AM

Players

1. Buck Leonard
2. Joe Jackson
3. Willie Wells
4. Cool Papa Bell
5. Biz Mackey
6. Frank Grant
7. Rube Waddell
8. Sherry Magee
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Charley Radbourn
11. Ray Brown
12. Pie Traynor

Contributors

1. Ned Hanlon
2. ALFRED Spink
3. Ed Bolden
4. Miller Huggins
5. Tom Connolly

Freakshow

08-03-2009, 09:50 AM

1 Buck Leonard
2 Willie Wells
3 Joe Jackson
4 Ray Brown
5 Zack Wheat
6 Sherry Magee
7 Joe Start
8 Ted Lyons
9 Bid McPhee
10 Red Faber
11 Elmer Flick
12 Wes Ferrell

Now that Joe Jackson has "shuffled off this mortal coil" the punishment need no longer be meted out. I can now honor him for the great player that he was.

jalbright

08-03-2009, 11:19 AM

We have quorums in both elections.

Paul Wendt

08-03-2009, 12:40 PM

The Homestead Grays take player slots 1-2 and may well take contributor slot 1 by the deprecated practice called "voting the straight ticket"!

1 Buck Leonard
2 Ray Brown
3 Willie Wells
4 Grant Johnson
5 Charley Radbourn
6 George Gore
7 Joe Start
8 Ted Lyons
9 Heinie Groh
10 Elmer Flick
11 Bid McPhee
12 Jack Glasscock

So slots 3-4, 7-8, and 11-12 go to men who played a long time. ;)
... Ezra Sutton, Zach Wheat, and Max Carey must be the contenders for 15-16 ... maybe Keeler plus Wheat or whoever at 19-20 ...

That leaves room for Charley Bennett and Sherry Magee just off ballot. ... then maybe Stanley Coveleski and Bob Caruthers ...

jalbright

08-03-2009, 02:05 PM

One thing I don't understand is why some people have voted for Alfred Spink, but not J. G. Taylor Spink. I can understand voting for neither, both, or JGT alone, but I don't get voting for Alfred and not JGT. OK, Alfred founded the Sporting News--but it was in financial trouble and not a power when he turned it over to JGT. It was JGT who turned the Sporting News into the "bible of baseball", helped break the Black Sox scandal, and did numerous things like create awards until the BBWAA took them over that were good for the game. Why Alfred and not JGT?

See this on J. G. Taylor Spink for more information (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=JG_Taylor_Spink).

Paul Wendt

08-03-2009, 04:34 PM

People differ regarding how much to honor initiators, and founders rather than builders when there is a distinction.

Honoring isn't the same as recognizing a causal role, nor the same as giving moral credit, although people differ there too. ;) Is naming to a "hall of fame", or to this one in particular, primarily honoring? I'm not sure about that either.

Potentially important regarding Al Spink and JGT Spink,
the nephew is associated with the newspaper, plain and simple. He must be honored, recognized, credited for his role at the head of TSN or not at all. On the other hand, Al Spink was an important baseball journalist, booster, and organizer before the newspaper. One may honor him, etc, for working successfully to revive commercial, public baseball in St Louis after the scandal that knocked out the Brown Stockings along with Louisville in 1877. He organized one team, which became or begat the new Browns, and reestablished the intercity level of play. He had some role, maybe initiator, in the Sportsman's Park and Club, the corporation that built and owned the ballpark and held the AA/NL franchise; and some role, maybe initiator, in the American Association. Later he compiled one of the first histories of baseball, not the game but the organizations, players, and journalists of his lifetime; not a narrative but a big notebook with little bits of narration. I wouldn't put much weight on that.

This case for Al Spink is similar in kind to the case for O.P. Caylor, the leading baseball journalist in Cincinnati by sometime in the1870s. Indeed, they are almost parallel, except for the history. Caylor organized the team that became or begat the new Reds (partly to meet the opportunity provided by Spink, according to the latter's telling) and he had some role, maybe initiator, in the American Association. In 1887 he started the National Daily Base Ball Gazette, based in New York. It went out of business in the first month, he cannot match Spink and TSN there.

--
Elsewhere Brad Harris has extolled Caylor, partly as a baseball mover and shaker rather than journalist --emphasizing the AA, iirc. We also have one regular Caylor voter here, whose reasoning I don't know at all.

Brad is listing JGT Spink #1 and he isn't voting for Al Spink or Caylor. Our Caylor voter is not yet here this year. I don't know that any of our Al Spink voters considers TSN secondary in his portfolio, or whether any of them is inclined to support Caylor in the future (none is voting opie now). This has been the outline of my case for Al Spink, and I am not voting for him now.
For one thing I would like to know more about brother Billy, who preceded Al in St Louis (from Quebec) and landed or created the sportswriter role at a more important newspaper.

Captain Cold Nose

08-04-2009, 05:15 AM

jalbright

08-04-2009, 07:21 AM

I see we've gotten all but two ballots from last election already: Paul W's contributor ballot and jaxxr's player ballot. I'm still going to leave it open until the 14th, as initially stated, in hopes of drawing back some of those we've had take a hiatus on voting here, or maybe even some new voters.

There's a real scramble for the third spot among players (and thus a shot at induction), and the top spot for contributors is a tight race as well. Thus, there's no question that a vote in this election can clearly make a difference.

That said, I don't want to see the project get too quiet, so I thought I'd put out a list of some of the more notable additions to the ballot in the rest of the 1950's in hopes of generating some discussion.

1954 features an exceptional crop of new player candidates, including: Stan Hack, Billy Herman, Mel Ott, Satchel Paige and Arky Vaughan. I figure the last three names will be elected in 1954.

1955 has a large class of contributors including Larry MacPhail, Alex Pompez and Casey Stengel. Stengel's still with the Yankees at this point, so it's hard to say how someone still in a productive part of his career will be received. Those candidates certainly have the potential to shake things up a bit. On the player side, Dizzy Dean is the biggest name by far, so the top holdovers will have a chance to get in.

1956 has two notable additions in Hank Greenberg and Joe Medwick. I'd certainly expect Greenberg to be elected, but I'm not certain Ducky will do it in the first try. Even if he does, there should be at least one spot for a top holdover.

1957 doesn't have a guy who should threaten to be elected any time soon, as probably it's best player candidate is Quincy Trouppe. I like Trouppe, but if he makes it, it's a safe bet it will be after many elections. Jorge Pasquel of the Mexican League will join the contributor list, and while he probably will eventually draw some support, he's not likely to be elected quickly.

1958 will see a worthy manager join the contributor list in Billy Southworth, though I doubt he'll be elected before the 1960's. The players will have a guy who should be elected straightaway in Johnny Mize, and has Negro Leaguer Ray Dandridge as well, though Dandridge isn't likely to get in rapidly (if he makes it at all). We'll see our first Japanese candidate in Tetsuahru Kawakami (who I cannot champion as a player, but will as a contributor due to being the manager for the Yomiuri Giants during their run of nine successive Japan Series wins).

1959 will give us a titan for the contributors in George Weiss, though I'm guessing he won't make it on the first try. The players will have a guy who shouldn't have any trouble making it in Joe DiMaggio, and we'll see the first Japanese League player I support in Victor Starffin.

jalbright

08-04-2009, 07:46 AM

jalbright

08-04-2009, 05:36 PM

I'll give the entire list of eligibles for the 1950's here. First, the Players

1954
Allen , Johnny
Hack , Stan
Harder , Mel
Herman , Billy
Higgins , Mike
Lee , Bill
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Newsom , Bobo
Ott , Mel
Paige , Satchel
Vaughan , Arky
Walters , Bucky
Warneke , Lon

1955
Crosetti , Frankie
Dean , Dizzy
Moses , Wally
Rowe , Schoolboy
Schumacher , Hal
Sullivan , Billy
Walker , Dixie
Whitehead , Burgess

1956
Danning , Harry
Greenberg , Hank
McCormick , Frank
Medwick , Joe
Mungo , Van
O'Neill , Buck

1957
Galan , Augie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Moore , Terry
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tobin , Jim
Trouppe , Quincy

1958
Clarkson , Bus
Cooper , Mort
Dandridge , Ray
Henrich , Tommy
Kawakami , Tetsuharu
Mize , Johnny
Mulcahy , Hugh
York , Rudy

1959
Brecheen , Harry
DiMaggio , Joe
Kinder , Ellis
Nicholson , Bill
Starffin , Victor
Vander Meer , Johnny

Now, the Contributors:

1954
Greenlee , Gus

1955
Cambria , Joe
Gonzalez , Mike
Luque , Dolf
MacPhail , Larry
Pompez , Alex
Stengel , Casey

1956
O'Neill , Steve

1957
Pasquel , Jorge

1958
Southworth , Billy

1959
Frick , Ford
Weiss , George

jjpm74

08-04-2009, 06:18 PM

Could you post some info on this guy:

Tetsuharu Kawakami

He isn't mentioned in your musings thread (at least not in your table of contents post; post #2 on the first page of it) and these aren't very descriptive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsuharu_Kawakami

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Tetsuharu_Kawakami

Not bad counting numbers, but I know next to nothing of the quality of his league in his era:

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1648

Edit: I do plan on digging through what you've written up on him at Baseball Guru (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/InfoLinks.html#Tetsuharu_Kawakami) when I have more time, but a brief synopsis on him would be very useful, especially with Japanese players looming in the neighboring BBF Progressive HOF.

jalbright

08-05-2009, 07:05 AM

I'll dig up some of the stuff on Kawakami later, but my off-the-cuff MLB comp for him would be Frank McCormick of the 1938-1941 era Red team. Nice average, good glove at 1B, good power for doubles, but not HR. As a manager, he's far more notable, as previously indicated in this thread.

jaxxr

08-05-2009, 07:09 AM

1. Joe Jackson
2. Addie Joss
3. Buck Leonard
4. Willie Keeler
5. Bid McPhee
6. Rube Waddell
7. Bill Terry
8. Chuck Klien
9. Pie Traynor
10 Cool Papa Bell
11 Willie Wells
12 Charles "Hoss" Radbourn

jalbright

08-05-2009, 07:26 AM

Here's some links to some of my writings about Kawakami as a player. If you're looking for info on a single individual, I suggest looking at my "Info Links" which is at the top of my main page at BaseballGuru (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/). In this case, you'd go to players on that page, then to the K's, click on Kawakami, and that would bring up links on everything I've written about him.

ranked among the top players in Japanese baseball history (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright01.html#Tetsuharu_Kawakami)

On Giant franchise all-star team (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright06.html#gi_Tetsuharu_Kawakami)

looked at as possible Cooperstown candidate (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright25.html#Tetsuharu_Kawakami)

further examination as possible Cooperstown candidate (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright30.html#Tetsuharu_Kawakami)

1951 season compared to Ferris Fain's of 1951 (http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright33.html#Kawakami51)

I rank him as the third best 1B in Japanese professional baseball history, the best position player in pre-1950 NPB baseball, and the best CL 1B of the 1950's and second best overall in that decade. He did miss three years to wartime service. FWIW, the pieces are listed in the order I wrote them, and the comments sometimes build on past work, especially comment #4 above building on #3.

For Kawakami's career batting stats, scroll a little more than 3/4 of the way down this page (http://www.japanbaseballdaily.com/battingKatsuki-Kawamoto.html)

jalbright

08-05-2009, 05:44 PM

The early Japanese Leagues had high school and university baseball already well established to draw from, which helped. OTOH, Japan was already on a wartime footing by the time NPB was formed, and started interrupting ballplaying careers within only a few years of NPB's inception. They lost 1945 to WW II, and then had a big expansion in 1950. It was a deadball style of play (few homers, pitcher dominated) until 1946. These reasons are a huge part of why the only guy who had the bulk of his career before 1946 I think had a Cooperstown quality career is Starffin.

On another, unrelated, note, I think I corrected all my records to reflect Alfred Spink.

jalbright

08-06-2009, 06:58 AM

I'll put the whole Tetsuharu Kawakami as a player bit together for you folks:

He was nicknamed "The God of Batting" due to his regularly high averages. He had some power, but especially after a 1950 talk with Ted Williams, he focused on hitting line drives for average.. He hit over .300 in 13 seasons, winning 5 batting titles to go with 3 RBI titles and 2 HR crowns. Before his 1950 talk with Ted Williams,he hit 25, 24, and 29 HR. but had only hit over .313 once. After that talk, he never again hit more than 15 HR and usually was in single digits in that category. He did have good doubles power, though. Over the six years after that talk, his lowest average was .320. This change came after he turned 30, which indicates to me he was a) intelligent, and b) he put in the large amount of hard work necessary to make such a change. Three of his batting titles came after that influential talk with Williams.

I rank him as the third best 1B in Japanese professional baseball history, the best position player in pre-1950 NPB baseball, and the best CL 1B of the 1950's and second best overall in that decade. He did miss three years to wartime service.

His managing career is even more impressive than his playing career, with 11 pennants and Japan Series titles in only 14 seasons, none of which were under .500! Combine that with his playing career, and he deserves a spot in our Contributors section of the Best of Baseball project to go with his spot in the BBF HOF.

If we look at what I get for his major league equivalent, here’s what I get:

Tetsuharu Kawakami Position: First Base

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB AVG OBP SLG HOF Stds
2305 8863 1151 2641 ..440 ..224 ..128 ..1476 ..220 ...298 ...374 ...441 ..46
The conversions for pre-1945 play may not be great, but I doubt they're hurting his case a lot. Initially, I was skeptical that he could have won and held a first base job in his own time. However, his list of comparables not only convinces me I was wrong on this point, but it is quite interesting and provides an interesting picture of him as a player. His list of ten most comparable players has five Hall of Famers: Jake Beckley, Zack Wheat, Roger Connor, Fred Clarke, and Enos Slaughter. It also has one man who finished in the top ten in BBWAA HOF voting in Keith Hernandez. It also has two players who are rather contemporary first basemen of Kawakami in Mickey Vernon and Joe Kuhel. The list is rounded out with Joe Judge and Jimmy Ryan.

Vernon and Kuhel show Kawakami could have gotten and kept a major league first base job even in his own time. In fact, Kawakami's projection is a little better than the careers of either man. This means he could match his projection, but since in his time the big name first basemen were Gehrig, Foxx and Greenberg, he would have been seen as a second tier first baseman like Vernon or Kuhel.

Keith Hernandez gives us a glimpse of how he would have been viewed in the 1970's or 1980's. However, his OPS is just a tad below Hernandez' mark, and Hernandez is on the outside of the Hall looking in.

Beckley and Connor show that he could have been a star in baseball before 1920. My view is that while he's close to HOF quality as a player, I think he's just short of the level required.

jalbright

08-06-2009, 07:14 AM

Since Satchel Paige is coming up in 1954, I'll post a piece on him:

Satchel Paige
Years played: 1926-1950 (9 seasons in California Winter League)
Main position: pitcher
All Star Selections: Two American League, Five Negro League All-Star games (Holway picks only one pitcher per league)
MVPs or Top Pitcher selections: 2 ESPN, 1 Holway, 1 James
League champions on: 7 American summer, 8 California, 1 Puerto Rican Winter League, 1937 Dominican, 1 major league (won World Series)
League leading performances: In American summers, in the top five in wins seven times (led twice), led in strikeouts eight times and was second once, nine times in the top five in total run average (led twice), in top four in winning percentage six times (led twice); In California Winter League, Career leader in wins, strikeouts and shutouts, and led two seasons in wins and one in strikeouts; In Puerto Rican Winter League, led once each in wins and strikeouts and was third in ERA.
Expert opinion: second pitcher in CPDD historian’s poll, second pitcher in Courier poll, tied for first overall in SABR poll, leading pitcher in Museum poll, James’ top Negro League pitcher of all time and 17th overall, starting pitcher in All-World picks, and Clark’s third best right handed pitcher.

One thing you cannot ignore about Paige is that he was a guy people paid to see. In fact, that’s an excellent measure of how he was viewed by contemporaries.

Second, anybody who picks somebody other than Paige as the best Negro League pitcher almost invariably then proceeds to justify their choice over Satchel. As Bill James has observed, the reason is that Satchel is the frame of reference, which is strong evidence he was the best Negro League pitcher.

Satchel also had amazing longevity. His major league career didn’t begin until he was 42, but he still pitched 476 innings in the majors with a 3.29 ERA and 32 saves. Also, even as a pitcher in his 40’s, he was able to strike out 5.45 guys per 9 IP and had a 1.6 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Paige’s American summer won-lost records aren’t quite what you’d expect given his reputation, but there are reasons for that. One, he often was pitted against the best pitcher of another team (the better to draw fans). Two, because he was such a draw, he pitched a lot of games, but often came out after only three or four innings. He couldn’t get a win when he left that early, but he could get a loss despite pitching well if he left down 1-0. You can’t fault him for doing something to preserve his arm. Despite those issues, Shades of Glory has him winning 62.8% of his career decisions in American summer blackball with 7.35 strikeouts per 9 career innings, a 4.87 strikeout to walk ratio and a 2.02 ERA. In winter ball, Paige was used more normally, his winning percentages are more what you’d expect: 56-7 in California and 19-6 in Puerto Rico.

So what do we have in Satchel Paige? A bright, driven pitcher with good strikeout totals and excellent control in a tremendously long career giving up few runs in a high run scoring environment and winning five of every eight decisions in American summer ball despite being used in a way which limited his chances for wins significantly while not similarly limiting his chances of losses. With this profile, it shouldn’t be surprising he was frequently associated with championship teams. If that isn’t a great pitcher, I don’t know what is.

I decided to be cautious and rank him just below his greatest contemporary pitcher, Lefty Grove. I can’t justify putting him any lower than that.

One other thing about Satchel Paige: he clearly followed the money, but I don’t think he can be faulted for doing so, either. Sure, he was well paid by Negro League standards, because he drew fans to the ballpark. However, in the Negro Leagues he never earned anything like what a major league pitcher of his stature in that time earned. Also, Paige was dealing with far less favorable working conditions than major league pitchers. Satch was out there earning a living, and I see no reason for him to try and do anything but get the best deal he could. Heck, Negro League teams often raided each other for talent.

Beyond that, the best teams were usually the ones that paid the best because they drew the best talent. Really, this was a self-supporting cycle: good teams drew more talent because they paid better, which helped them in a key element of American blackball business, namely barnstorming. Teams with more talent drew better crowds and could book the best money making opportunities. Barnstorming was a huge part of how teams and players made money (players usually got a share of the team’s proceeds for a game). This is one reason it is very important to look at how often players in the Negro Leagues were with champions: not only would great players help make the team great, but the champions were the ones best able to collect top talent for many reasons.

jalbright

08-06-2009, 07:24 AM

Given the competition he faces, I don't expect to see Billy Herman elected in 1954. OTOH, I have seen people in this forum express doubts about his worthiness, and here's my reply:

Billy Herman ELECTED BBF HOF

He has 134 Gray Ink points, which is 120th all-time.

He is 16th among second basemen in the latest BJHA in career win shares, 13th in the total of his best 3 seasons, and 12th in his total for his best 5 consecutive seasons. His career win share total, despite losing two years to military service, is 173rd best among all players. He also was a ten time all-star, all of them coming consecutively. That's consistent excellence, folks. Isn't that what a Hall of Famer should be?

Of those ahead of him, Biggio and Alomar are not yet eligible for BBF HOF (Alomar will be in November), and we've elected Morgan, Collins, Hornsby, J. Robinson, LaJoie, Sandberg, Carew, Gehringer and Frisch. Those eleven are responsible for the vast majority of the better marks. Kid Gleason gets him twice, but only because he had a fine year as an 18th century pitcher. That leaves Grich. Really, they're tied (Grich is 3 points ahead, actually) except for Grich's 31 point lead in Win Shares versus Herman's 94 point lead in gray ink. I take Herman in that comparison.

All of the above doesn't give Herman any credit for the two years he lost in the service during WW II. With those two years, he would have been likely to reach 2600 hits (around 70th all-time) with the significant kickers of 1) being a second baseman with 2) a career .300 average. Give him two more years, and his career win share total is almost surely in the top 130 all time, as he's only 23 away from that. Twenty three win shares is the level of a marginal starter for two years.

jalbright

08-06-2009, 07:27 AM

Stan Hack is more of a project to get elected, and I don't know if I'll even find room for him in my 1954 ballot, but he'll be there in 1955:

Stan Hack--ELECTED

You've got to love a leadoff hitter with a .394 career OBP. His 318 career win shares place him 12th among 3rd basemen in the latest BJHA, 138th overall. His best 3 years in win shares are 8th among 3rd basemen, and his best 5 consecutive seasons are 10th among third sackers.

He was in the top ten in OBP eigth times, in the top five in runs seven times, and in the top five in steals seven times. Perfect leadoff material.

Leadoff men have often been underappreciated, but Hack was a 5 time All-Star and was at least mentioned in MVP voting in 8 seasons (granted, he didn't get a huge amount of support in that regard). He was a B- defender at third over the course of his career per win shares, which means he had some fairly good years at his best. He's just out of the top 140 in gray ink, and not far off in the standards (166th) measure, despite not having a great deal of power. The measures in this paragraph aren't the kinds of things that necessarily get you into the Hall, but neither are they the kinds of things that keep you out, especially if you have a good glove at as important a defensive spot as 3B.

Lets look at his OPS+ and PA figures compared to some other HOF 3B and some 3B who are in BBF HOF :

Hack………. 119 8506
J. Collins…… 113 7452
B. Robinson 104 11782
Traynor……. 107 8293
Groh………. 118 7035
K. Boyer….. 116 8268
Kell………… 111 7528
Lindstrom…. 109 6104

Now, granted Kell and Lindstrom were mistakes, and at least some of these guys were better with the glove than Hack, and, yes, Brooks had a far longer career--but the HOF isn't overstocked with 3B, and Hack fits nicely with the other top five in this group IMHO.

He's been inducted into the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit" and the BBF HOF.

jalbright

08-09-2009, 08:33 AM

I'm going to PM everyone who has voted in at least two past elections (but not in this one) to try and increase our number of participants.

jalbright

08-09-2009, 08:51 AM

In the 1953 player election, we've got nine guys with at least 50% of the vote (we will elect three):

Cool Papa Bell
Ray Brown
Buck Leonard
Ted Lyons
Sherry Magee
Old Hoss Radbourn
Rube Waddell
Wille Wells
Zack Wheat

We've also got four contributors with at least 50% of the vote (we will elect one):

Charlie Commiskey
Ned Hanlon
Kennesaw Landis
Cum Posey

The nine players are all in the top 11 in the current voting (the exceptions are 7th and 10th), and the four contributors are all in the top five (the exception is 4th). The above lists are intentionally listed alphabetically.

jalbright

08-11-2009, 06:04 PM

Bumping the thread to keep it on the first page.

jjpm74

08-11-2009, 07:47 PM

jalbright--I was wondering if you plan on eventually voting for Bus Clarkson? I remember that you thought highly in the SOC project and would like to learn more about his HOF potential. I am already familiar with the excellent information you provided for him in the SOC:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1137630&postcount=777

jalbright

08-12-2009, 06:56 AM

In this project, it's a little hard to say. I'll certainly support him in the projects which don't worry about cutting things off in the 240 range. I've got more candidates than that, and Bus unfortunately isn't one of the better supported ones from what I've seen to date. Of course, that could change. Another concern is how many make it in that I wouldn't put in, period. The more of them there are, the less chance I've got to get to Clarkson. In an ideal world, I would, but I've never found that mythical ideal world, and probably never will.

jalbright

08-13-2009, 09:39 AM

As I write this, we've got just under 35 1/2 hours to go in this election. I'll be putting up (but locking until this election is final) most of the 1954 thread as I've got other commitments on Saturday, and this way I can get this done as well.

This is our 18th election, and 11 voters in this election have been with the project for each of them. While I appreciate the contributions of others, the people who are here election in and election out are most important for the continuing existence of any such project. Other than myself, those voters are: Captain Cold Nose, dgarza, Dogdaze, Domenic, Freakshow, jjpm74, J W, leecemark, Paul Wendt, and PVNick. Thanks to all of you for your continued participation.

Domenic

08-13-2009, 09:52 AM

jalbright

08-14-2009, 04:53 PM

A little over 4 hours to go in this election.

jjpm74

08-14-2009, 05:49 PM

I have thoroughly enjoyed this project, Jim. I know I don't participate much beyond my ballot, but I read all of the discussion and, occasionally, adjust my ballot for it. I have learned a great deal from this, and I hope to continue to do so.

Thank you for running it, Jim.

Same here. One of the things I really enjoy about both this and the Progressive HOF projects are that both are chronological, so they enable participants to look at a player in the context of their generation. In this project, the end result is a mirror HOF that resembles the NBHoFM in size which is an end result I'm looking forward to. In both projects, I've learned a great deal.

jalbright

08-14-2009, 07:35 PM

You're welcome, gents. I learned more the first time, the BBF HOF, but that's mainly because it was the first. I've learned some things this time, to be sure. I'm intrigued by the direct comparison to Cooperstown this project presents, and how a better thought out voting system could have helped.

Cooperstown had interruptions in the BBWAA voting early, much of the time kept prior voting secret, and came into existence with a large backlog of players. When all those things were combined with a mandate of a 75% supermajority, it created the impetus for Veteran's Committee(s). I've knocked the writers, too, but while they have made some notable omissions, the guys they included sometimes were a little shaky, they 1) had reasonable (if not always overwhelming) cases to sell, and 2) represented the consensus of the supposed cognoscenti of the day. If we didn't have anybody worse than the worst the writers included, the Hall would be much better off. The iterations of the VC have caused far more havoc overall.

The idea of a VC for 19th century guys would have (and still may) make sense, but it's not wise for one smaller group to overrule a larger group in this setting. Of course, the only reason they dropped guys after 15 years with the BBWAA was their unwise way of clearing the backlog.

Our little exercise is not historically accurate in its voting rules, most notably in its insistence on integration and internationalization. VCs might have been necessary for Negro Leaguers, and probably wouldn't have come until the 60's in real life. By the time we get to 2009 and beyond, it is my hope that except for our inclusion of some international stars (Japanese ones, maybe Castro era Cubans, and Perucho Cepeda chief among the candidates there), these issues will have balanced out and we'll have a solid comparison.

jalbright

08-15-2009, 06:50 AM

We had 14 ballots in the player election, and have inducted Buck Leonard, Sherry Magee and Willie Wells. The official results are:

Player…………….. votes points
Leonard, Buck 14 135
Wells, Willie 11 96
Magee , Sherry 10 69
Brown, Ray 10 65
Wheat , Zack 10 65
Radbourn , C 8 58
Jackson , Joe 6 57
Bell, Cool Papa 9 54
Lyons , Ted 9 49
Keeler , Willie 4 39
Waddell , Rube 7 37
Start , Joe 4 29
Foster, Willie 5 26
Johnson , HR 6 24
Ruffing , Red 4 23
Traynor , Pie 4 22
Bennett , C 2 19
Terry , Bill 3 17
Stovey , Harry 3 16
Sutton , Ezra 2 16
Coveleski , S 3 15
Groh , Heinie 3 15
Klein, Chuck 2 14
Mackey, Biz 2 14
McPhee , Bid 3 14
Flick , Elmer 3 13
Thompson , S 2 13
Joss , Addie 1 11
Caruthers , B 1 10
Grant , Frank 2 10
Gore , George 1 7
Maranville , R 1 7
Carey , Max 1 5
Ferrell, Wes 3 5
Smith, Hilton 1 5
Hill , Pete….. 1 4
Berger , Wally 1 3
Duffy , Hugh 1 3
Faber , Red 1 3
Galvin , Pud 1 2
Averill, Earl 1 1
Glasscock , J 1 1
Jennings , H 1 1

We had ten contributor ballots, and inducted Ned Hanlon through the second tiebreaker (they split 5-5 on who was highest on ballots, so Hanlon won by being on all 10 ballots while Landis was only on 7). The official results:

Contributors………. votes points
Hanlon , Ned 10 28
Landis , K 7 28
Commiskey , C 7 19
Spink, Alfred 4 14
Posey, Cum 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 2 10
Spink, JGT 2 7
Pearce, Dickey 2 6
Shoriki, M 1 5
Doubleday , A 1 4
Huggins , M 3 4
Selee , Frank 2 4
Bolden, Ed 1 3
Chance , Frank 1 3
Conlan , C 1 1
Connolly , Tom 1 1