1955 Best of Baseball Election Thread [Archive]

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jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:07 AM

This is our twentienth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT September 11, 2009.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1954 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=92810)

jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:07 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.

21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:11 AM

The players who become eligible in 1955 are:

Crosetti , Frankie
Dean , Dizzy
Moses , Wally
Rowe , Schoolboy
Schumacher , Hal
Sullivan , Billy
Walker , Dixie
Whitehead , Burgess

On the contributor side, we add the following eligibles:

Cambria , Joe
Gonzalez , Mike
Luque , Dolf
MacPhail , Larry
Pompez , Alex
Stengel , Casey

jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:13 AM

The 1954 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player………….. votes pts
Brown, Ray 10 69
Wheat , Zack 10 54
Jackson , Joe 6 51
Bell, CP... 8 43
Radbourn , C 8 43
Lyons , Ted 8 41
Waddell , Rube 7 31
Keeler , Willie 4 29
Start , Joe 4 25
Foster, Willie 5 22
Ruffing , Red 4 19
Johnson , HR 5 18
Bennett , C 2 15
Herman, Billy 5 15
Traynor , Pie 3 14
Groh , Heinie 3 12
Mackey, Biz 2 12
McPhee , Bid 3 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Klein, Chuck 2 11
Coveleski , S 3 10
Thompson , S 1 10
Flick , Elmer 2 9
Sutton , Ezra 1 9
Terry , Bill 3 9
Grant , Frank 2 8
Caruthers , B 1 6
Gore , George 1 6
Hack, Stan 3 5
Maranville , R 1 5
Carey , Max 1 4
Ferrell, Wes 3 4
Smith, Hilton 1 4
Stovey , Harry 1 4
Berger , Wally 1 3
Hill , Pete……. 1 3
Faber , Red 1 2

The 1954 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Contributor…….. votes pts
Commiskey , C 8 26
Posey, Cum 7 21
Spink, Alfred 7 20
Spink, JGT 5 12
Taylor , C. I. 2 10
Huggins , M 4 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 7
Selee , Frank 4 7
Shoriki, M 1 5
Bolden, Ed 1 4
Chance , Frank 1 4
Doubleday , A 1 4
Wilkinson, JL 1 3
Connolly , Tom 1 2
Caylor , O. P. 1 1
Conlan , C 1 1

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:17 AM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Jim O'Rourke
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Buck Ewing
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Lefty Grove
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Buck Leonard
Pop Lloyd
Sherry Magee
Christy Mathewson
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Mel Ott
Satchel Paige
Eddie Plank
Bullet Joe Rogan
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Dazzy Vance
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Willie Wells
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Connie Mack
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Al Spalding
Harry Wright

jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:20 AM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Allen , Johnny
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bell , Cool Papa
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Brown , Ray
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Dean, Dizzy
Derringer , Paul
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Flick , Elmer
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Foster , Willie
Fraser , Chick
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Groh , Heinie
Haas , Mule
Hack , Stan
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Harder , Mel
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Herman , Babe
Herman , Billy
Herzog , Buck
Higgins , Mike
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Hooper , Harry
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jackson , Joe
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Home Run
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Keeler , Willie
Kelley , Joe
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Lee , Bill
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Lyons , Ted
Mackey , Biz
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mullane , Tony
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
Newsom , Bobo
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Radbourn , Charlie
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Remsen , Jack
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Robertson , Dave
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ruffing , Red
Ryan , Jimmy
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Toney , Fred
Traynor , Pie
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Veach , Bobby
Waddell , Rube
Walberg , Rube
Wallace , Bobby
Walters , Bucky
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Warneke , Lon
Welch , Mickey
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
Wheat , Zack
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cambria , Joe
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Commiskey , Charlie
Conlan , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Fullerton , Hugh
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Greenlee, Gus
Griffith , Clark
Harridge, Willie
Hillerich , John
Huggins , Miller
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
Luque , Dolf
MacPhail , Larry
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
Osborn , Frank
Pompez , Alex
Posey, Cum
Reach , A. J.
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Selee , Frank
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Spink, J. G. Taylor
Spink, Alfred
Stallings , George
Stengel , Casey
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

jalbright

08-29-2009, 09:24 AM

My ballot:

Players
1. Ray Brown
2. Zack Wheat
3. Billy Herman
4. Ted Lyons
5. Cool Papa Bell
6. Red Ruffing
7. Rube Waddell
8. Willie Foster
9. Home Run Johnson
10. Stan Hack
11. Harry Stovey
12. John Beckwith

Contributors
1. Cum Posey
2. Casey Stengel
3. J. G. Taylor Spink
4. Charlie Commiskey
5. Miller Huggins

dgarza

08-29-2009, 09:46 AM

Players

1. Sam Thompson
2. Joe Jackson
3. Willie Keeler
4. Chuck Klein
5. Charley Radbourn
6. Harry Stovey
7. Zack Wheat
8. Bill Terry
9. Billy Herman
10. Cool Papa Bell
11. Hugh Duffy
12. Pud Galvin

Contributors

1. Abner Doubleday
2. Charles Commiskey
3. Casey Stengel
4. Larry MacPhail
5. Al Spink

Domenic

08-29-2009, 09:46 AM

01. Joe Jackson
02. Zack Wheat
03. Heinie Groh
04. Cool Papa Bell
05. Ray Brown
06. Rube Waddell
07. Wally Berger
08. Harry Stovey
09. Willie Foster
10. Stan Hack
11. Dizzy Dean
12. John Beckwith

01. C.I. Taylor
02. Casey Stengel
03. Cum Posey
04. Miller Huggins
05. J.G. Taylor Spink

leecemark

08-29-2009, 09:57 AM

1) Ray Brown
2) Zack Wheat
3) Charlie Radbourne
4) Rube Waddell
5) Dizzy Dean
6) Ted Lyons
7) Willie Foster
8) Home Run Johnson
9) Charlie Bennett
10) Wes Ferrell
11) Cool Papa Bell
12) Pie Traynor

1) Dickey Pearce
2) Charlie Commiskey
3) Cum Posey
4) JGT Spink
5) CI Taylor

Paul Wendt

08-29-2009, 06:07 PM

This is an update from three years ago, a census of our 72 current player members by debut decade and fielding position. Thirty percent debuted during the 1920s!

The Best of Baseball

3 6 7 10 12 11 20 3 (72) all players after the 1954 election

1860s 70s 80s 90s 00s 10s 20s 1930s : decade of debut in high-level competition

3 6 7 10 10 7 13 2 (58) major leagues and prior pro clubs
0 0 0 0 2 4 7 1 (14) Negro Leagues and prior blackball

Major leagues, etc, by grouped fielding position
0 0 3 2 5 2 2 0 (14) pitcher
3 1 1 5 2 2 5 2 (21) catcher-3b-ss-2b
0 5 3 3 3 3 6 0 (23) outfield-1b

Negro leagues, etc, by grouped fielding position
0 0 0 0 1 1 2 0 (4) pitcher
0 0 0 0 1 1 3 0 (5) catcher-3b-ss-2b
0 0 0 0 0 2 2 1 (5) outfield-1b

1860s 70s 80s 90s 00s 10s 20s 1930s : debut decade
Now put a finger to the wind.

Quoting the introduction by Jim Albright,
>The 1954 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player………….. votes pts
Brown, Ray 10 69
Wheat , Zack 10 54
Jackson , Joe 6 51
Bell, CP... 8 43
Radbourn , C 8 43
Lyons , Ted 8 41
Waddell , Rube 7 31
Keeler , Willie 4 29
Start , Joe 4 25
Foster, Willie 5 22
Ruffing , Red 4 19
Johnson , HR 5 18
...
Grant Johnson at the bottom of that selection is the leading holdover from any of the fielding positions catcher, third, short, and second. Ahead of him we have six pitchers, four outfielders, and old-time firstbaseman Joe Start. During three years the only changes have been the election of Sherry Magee and entry of Ray Brown at the top Johnson bumping Harry Stovey at the bottom. Now we look forward to five years when we will probably elect about ten from the backlog, mainly if not entirely from this list.

The strongest candidates due to arrive during that time include no one who played catcher, third, short, or second. It seems likely we will add 5-7 pitchers, 5-7 outfielders, and 2-3 first basemen.

jalbright

08-29-2009, 06:31 PM

The less organized state of the game in the early days doesn't help the candidates from the first decade or two. It's harder to be sure they're at the relatively high level of players who are the best available.

Another factor in the bubble of eligibles is the Negro Leagues. The Negro Leaguers from before they were organized around 1920 who are good enough to rate among the very best in the game are much harder to identify (much like the MLBers into the 1880's) than those after that time.

There's nothing requiring that the distribution be equal among positions or time frames. I agree that in general it should be close to that, but there will be exceptions.

Tiboreau

08-29-2009, 06:38 PM

1. Ray Brown
2. Ted Lyons
3. Elmer Flick
4. Willie Foster
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Red Ruffing
7. Pete Hill
8. Wes Ferrell
9. Heinie Groh
10. Hughie Jennings
11. Willie Keeler
12. George Gore

jalbright

08-30-2009, 08:56 AM

Now put a finger to the wind.

Quoting the introduction by Jim Albright,
>The 1954 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

Player………….. votes pts
Brown, Ray 10 69
Wheat , Zack 10 54
Jackson , Joe 6 51
Bell, CP... 8 43
Radbourn , C 8 43
Lyons , Ted 8 41
Waddell , Rube 7 31
Keeler , Willie 4 29
Start , Joe 4 25
Foster, Willie 5 22
Ruffing , Red 4 19
Johnson , HR 5 18
...
Grant Johnson at the bottom of that selection is the leading holdover from any of the fielding positions catcher, third, short, and second. Ahead of him we have six pitchers, four outfielders, and old-time firstbaseman Joe Start. During three years the only changes have been the election of Sherry Magee and entry of Ray Brown at the top Johnson bumping Harry Stovey at the bottom. Now we look forward to five years when we will probably elect about ten from the backlog, mainly if not entirely from this list.

The strongest candidates due to arrive during that time include no one who played catcher, third, short, or second. It seems likely we will add 5-7 pitchers, 5-7 outfielders, and 2-3 first basemen.

I'd bet on six of the top seven, the only question being Joe Jackson. Those folks have gotten the support of at least half of our voters. After that, I'm not sure. Certainly, the ones listed above have the most support of the other candidates, but it's hard to figure when and where they'll each pick up more support. That can be a dicey proposition. I'd think most if not all the remaining listed candidates will make it eventually, but I won't hazard a guess on when that will happen. Herman and Hack could advance more rapidly, for example, as one or both could have missed ballots simply due to the size and quality of last year's class.

Paul Wendt

08-30-2009, 12:19 PM

Keep #12, jim, you'll be able to reuse some of it in three more years.

#12
The less organized state of the game in the early days doesn't help the candidates from the first decade or two. It's harder to be sure they're at the relatively high level of players who are the best available.

Another factor in the bubble of eligibles is the Negro Leagues. The Negro Leaguers from before they were organized around 1920 who are good enough to rate among the very best in the game are much harder to identify (much like the MLBers into the 1880's) than those after that time.

I have revised table #11 to separate the "Negro Leagues" and "major leagues" by grouped fielding position.

If people are skeptical about the 1880s it's differential skepticism, does not apply to corner outfielders and firstbasemen who tend to be judged by OPS+ alone, I surmise.

#11. I closed,

... we look forward to five years when we will probably elect about ten from the backlog, mainly if not entirely from this list.

The strongest candidates due to arrive during that time include no one who played catcher, third, short, or second. It seems likely we will add 5-7 pitchers, 5-7 outfielders, and 2-3 first basemen.

#14, jim replied,

... Herman and Hack could advance more rapidly, for example, as one or both could have missed ballots simply due to the size and quality of last year's class.

By omission my wording may suggest "it seems likely we will add 0-0 others", catchers-3b-ss-2b. The sum of stated ranges is 12-17, which leaves 0-3 for the other positions, and it is likely that one or more of them will make it during the five years. "Zero to zero" would be a foolish bet.

Dogdaze

08-30-2009, 05:28 PM

Hilton Smith appears to me to be under-rated, I think part of that comes from Smith having to pitch in long relief for Paige and always being in Satchel Paiges shadow throughout most of his NeL career.

Currently I have Hilton Smith ranked ahead of Ray Brown amongst Negro League pitchers. But maybe I’m wrong. No doubt Ray Brown was a great pitcher, but currently I feel based on the info available for both pitchers, it appears to me that Smith was better.

However, I’m not so stubborn as to change my mind in ranking them, so before I make my selections, I’d like to hear from other posters on why you rank Ray Brown ahead of Hilton Smith, if convinced I’ll change my ranking.

Here’s some stats and info I’ve gathered on both Brown and Smith;

Ray Brown was named as the best NeL pitcher by Bill James once in 1940
Hilton Smith was named as the best NeL pitcher by Bill James three times, 1939, 41 and 42

John Holway named Brown the best NeL pitcher in the East for 1938 and 1940
John Holway named Smith the best NeL pitcher in the West for 1938 and 1941

You can see these best pitcher lists here; http://www.baseball-fever.com/archive/index.php/t-36139.html

Ray Brown’s NeL statistics based on Sabr’s research for the HOF:
G 183 W 105 L 44 IP 1284.3 ER 456 K 445 BB 254 WP 5 HB 12 SV 7 ERA 3.20
I couldn’t find any record of Brown pitching in exhibition games against MLB teams.
Brown was selected for 2 NeL All star appearances.

Hilton Smith’s NeL statistics based on Sabr’s research for the HOF, listed in the book Shades of Glory:
G 146 W 71 L 31 IP 812.3 ER 152 K 470 BB 96 WP 7 HB 13 SV 5 ERA 1.68
Hilton Smith had 6 wins 1 loss vs. major-league competition in exhibition games.
Smith was selected 6 NeL All Star appearances.

Brown played 37 more games and pitched 472 more innings then Smith in NeL competition. But irregardless it appears to me that Smith has better stats then Brown. Both pitched in winter leagues throughout their careers. Brown racked up a good winning percentage, but part of that was from playing on a dynasty type team, the Homestead Grays, though Smith played also for a pretty good team too, the KC Monarchs.

In the 1952 Pittsburgh Courier poll, Ray Brown was named to the 5th team. Hilton Smith was named as an honorable mention on it. Thanks to Bill Burgess who posted the poll, you can see it here; http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86376

Ray Brown was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2006 by the Special Negro League committee.

Hilton Smith was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2001 by the veterans committee.

Ray Brown was elected to Baseball Think Factories Hall of Merit, while Hilton Smith was not. However from what I can tell, when they had the discussion for Smith, it was prior to the Sabr stats being available, they used John Holway’s statistics which didn’t look all that impressive for Smith’s MLE’s. A few posters on BBTF mentioned that they’d like to see MLE’s for Smith with the Sabr stats though I haven’t seen any evidence of that as yet. http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/hilton_smith
But I do believe once BBTF re-evaluates Smith’s Sabr stats that he’ll get elected to the HOM.

Raymond Brown was more of a finesse pitcher who made up for a lack of blazing speed with a variety of breaking pitchers, a sinker, slider, and a fastball but he reportedly had a particularly a fine curveball. Later in his career he developed an effective knuckleball, and he had good control of all his pitches. Ray Brown played outfield when not pitching. From what I’ve read, he was a good hitter from both sides of the plate, sorry I don’t have his hitting stats to quote.

Hilton Smith reportedly had an excellent curveball, some say one of the best in NeL history. He also had a fastball, a sinker, a slider, a change of pace and screwball, all of which he threw either sidearm or overhand with good control on all six pitches. Smith also was a very good hitter and played outfielder or first baseman when not pitching. He retired with a .326 career batting average.

What those that played with or saw Ray Brown have to say about him:

"He was somebody you had to take notice of," said Wilmur Fields, a Negro League pitcher and a teammate of Brown's. "As far as rating him No. 1, 2, 3 or 4, where you might rate him, I don't know. But he was a great pitcher." Few who saw Brown pitch would argue to the contrary. "He was the top pitcher on our roster," said Fields, who roomed with Brown on road trips. "You could find no greater competitor than he was, I'll tell you that. Yeah, he was something else."

“Here's a guy with a great curveball, with great control and a great fastball who was probably the key pitcher for the Homestead Grays, who from, what, '37 to 1945 or something won nine Negro League pennants in a row," said Robert Ruck, an authority on the Negro Leagues and a history professor at the University of Pittsburgh.

"He was almost unbeatable," - Monte Irvin

"Raymond Brown, not only was he a great pitcher, he could hit. He could run and he'd play the outfield when he wasn't pitching." - Monte Irvin

What those that played with or saw Hilton Smith have to say about him:

Asked who was better, Paige or Smith, Roy Campanella said, “Migod, you couldn’t tell the difference!”

Teammate Allen Bryant said, "We never told him but he was the best pitcher we had including Satchel Paige."

“I don’t see how in the world you ever lose a ball game,” Biz Mackey said after a game pitched by Smith.

"He would have been a 20-game winner in the Major Leagues with the stuff he had. We played against an All-Star team once with Stan Musial and Johnny Mize, and they said they'd never seen a curveball like Hilton's curveball." Buck O'Neil, his teammate and friend said, "From 1940 to 1946, Hilton Smith might have been the greatest pitcher in the world."

“Hilton, in my estimation, had the most ability of any pitcher of my time.” – Quincy Trouppe

jalbright

08-30-2009, 06:04 PM

Dogdaze

08-30-2009, 07:55 PM

I'm a little dubious of the earned run element of the Shades of Glory data for Smith. He played for a good team that fielded pretty well according to what I've seen--yet the records in that book say the Monarchs gave up as many unearned runs as earned runs under Smith. I'll grant Paige's Monarch numbers are similar, but that still doesn't seem right.

Fair points Jim, thanks. I'm not trying to be argumetive here, I'm just trying to be objective to make a fair appraisal on both pitchers. I feel Smith was a great pitcher that appears to have great stats and is often ignored mostly because he pitched in Satchels shadow and didn't get the deserved praise Satchel and other pitchers recieved. And yes Smith gave up unearned runs and had good fielders that helped him, but didn't Brown as well? Again not trying to agrue, just trying to learn. And when it comes to NeL stats, I've got to say in all honesty I’m a little dubious of pretty much all Negro league statistics since the best we currently have will be incomplete. But of all those who gathered stats for the NeL I feel Sabr which Shades of Glory shows for Smith is probably the most accurate, albeit incomplete. I believe they didn’t include any barnstorming or winter league games where I’m not so sure about others such as Holway or Riley for their NeL stats.

Another question I have is what type of competition did Smith face in the West, perhaps it was weaker then what Brown faced in the East, thus giving him a much lower ERA? I’m not sure, though perhaps Brown faced weaker competition in the East then Smith faced out West, again not sure. It’s also possible that some NeL games where newspapers didn't write the box scores and therefore were not available for those that gathered NeL stats, could have been games Smith gave up a lot of earned runs and would have raised his ERA but of course the same could be true for Brown. We’ll probably never know for sure unless someone comes up with complete stats which unfortunately is very unlikely to happen.

Brown was the star pitcher for a dynasty. Smith did not fill the same role for the Monarchs, though the fact he was behind Paige makes that unfair. While I'm favorable to Smith, I've got to wonder exactly how the usage worked out--was there a second Monarch starter with more IP than Smith? If so, why didn't Smith get that job?

Yup Brown was the star pitcher for the Grays Dynasty while Smith pitched after Paige in many games. However, and I’m just speculating here, I can imagine where Paige being the big name that drew in the fans, which meant cash, that the Monarchs not wanting to lose games Paige started and to preserve his star status which had fan appeal, perhaps they chose Smith to finish those games since he was such a great pitcher. It's possible that Smith would help more then other available pitchers the Monarchs had. But again, this is just speculation on my part. Since the bottom line was money, and Paige was the big draw I assume it would have been very improtant to win the games Paige started to keep the fans coming back. Smith who was apparently a great pitcher should have been one of their top starters rather then Paige’s relief but I'm guessing it was more of a business decision as to why Smith pitched after Paige. And Smith to my knowledge never complained until after his career ended, he just towed the company line so to speak, pitching when they told him to.

Also, Brown was better in Mexico and Cuba (at least in wins and losses):

Brown in Cuba 46-20
Smith in Cuba 10-5

Brown in Mexico 51-36
Smith in Mexico 8-8

True but I don’t put too much stock in win/losses, but yes Brown looks more impressive in that stat while pitching in Mexico then Smith. However that to me doesn’t necessarily prove Brown was the better pitcher then Smith, isn't it possible Smith played for a weak team in Mexico that didn't score many runs to help him win?

Also, a quibble: the Monarchs were one of the two dynastic teams in the Western Negro Leagues, the other being Chicago. The Monarchs were usually the team the Grays beat in the Negro League Series for the title. So, Smith had the advantage of pitching for one heck of a team as well.

No quibble on my part, the Monarchs were dynastic as well, (poor wording on my part) and as such, Smith had the benefit of playing for some great teams which would pad his W/L stats as well.

Paul Wendt

08-30-2009, 08:56 PM

P.S. There is plenty of room pitchers to win election to the Hall of Merit without being judged better than Ray Brown. He finished ninth last year in a special election ranking the 19 member pitchers who worked primarily 1923-1958, about even with Hal Newhouser and Whitey Ford.

...
Currently I have Hilton Smith ranked ahead of Ray Brown amongst Negro League pitchers. But maybe I’m wrong. No doubt Ray Brown was a great pitcher, but currently I feel based on the info available for both pitchers, it appears to me that Smith was better.

However, I’m not so stubborn as to change my mind in ranking them, so before I make my selections, I’d like to hear from other posters on why you rank Ray Brown ahead of Hilton Smith, if convinced I’ll change my ranking.
...
Ray Brown was elected to Baseball Think Factories Hall of Merit, while Hilton Smith was not. However from what I can tell, when they had the discussion for Smith, it was prior to the Sabr stats being available, they used John Holway’s statistics which didn’t look all that impressive for Smith’s MLE’s. A few posters on BBTF mentioned that they’d like to see MLE’s for Smith with the Sabr stats though I haven’t seen any evidence of that as yet. (Hall of Merit "Hilton Smith" (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/hilton_smith))
But I do believe once BBTF re-evaluates Smith’s Sabr stats that he’ll get elected to the HOM.
...

Regarding the black players from the 1910s to 1940s, I depend on the work done by others and presented at the Hall of Merit, mainly three to five years ago. Tonight I reread the threads for Smith and Brown, where there is nothing at all new in three years. (Hall of Merit "Ray Brown" (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/ray_brown))

Brown's Cuban League record is very strong. Quoting Brent #25:
>>
Ray Brown pitched 5 seasons in Cuba. His first season, 1936-37, was arguably the greatest season ever by a pitcher in the Cuban League, at least according to the limited statistics that are available. He went 21-4, setting the all-time record for victories in a season, for a team that with its other pitchers went 16-28. He nearly single-handedly led his team, Santa Clara, to a tie for the lead at the end of the season, resulting in a 3-game playoff against Martín Dihigo's Marianao team. In the first game Brown beat Dihigo 6 to 1, but Marianao won the second game 4 to 2. In game 3, Brown again squared off against Dihigo with only two days rest, but this time Marianao won the game, and the pennant, 7 to 3. Reminiscent of Chesbro, 1904.

Brown's next two Cuban seasons were also very successful. Brown was the top pitcher on the pennant-winning team each season, though he received considerably more support as Santa Clara added Sam Bankhead, Lázaro Salazar, Bob Griffith, and (in 1938-39) Josh Gibson.

[deleted: season batting and pitching records with notes]
<<

I do believe once BBTF re-evaluates Smith’s Sabr stats that he’ll get elected to the HOM.
The annual election (2010) will be in November-December which is only a few years away here. Chris Cobb, the foremost author of MLEs for Negro Leagues and some foreign leagues, is also the one who took the lead in discussion last fall. He focused on pitchers, and may do so again (the group didn't elect any). Maybe he will take a suggestion to revisit MLEs for Smith this fall.
I will make the suggestion, if I remember this. It won't hurt to have it voiced more than once. And it won't hurt to have it voiced this year, although Alomar, Larkin, and Martinez or McGriff will probably win all three places.

Dogdaze

08-30-2009, 10:11 PM

P.S. There is plenty of room pitchers to win election to the Hall of Merit without being judged better than Ray Brown. He finished ninth last year in a special election ranking the 19 member pitchers who worked primarily 1923-1958, about even with Hal Newhouser and Whitey Ford.

Understood thanks.

Regarding the black players from the 1910s to 1940s, I depend on the work done by others and presented at the Hall of Merit, mainly three to five years ago. Tonight I reread the threads for Smith and Brown, where there is nothing at all new in three years. (Hall of Merit "Ray Brown")

I noticed the discussion for Smith started in 2005 and the last update was in 2006 after the Sabr stats came out and a few posters suggesting Chris Cobb re-crunch the numbers for MLE’s.

Brown's Cuban League record is very strong. Quoting Brent #25:
>>
Ray Brown pitched 5 seasons in Cuba. His first season, 1936-37, was arguably the greatest season ever by a pitcher in the Cuban League, at least according to the limited statistics that are available. He went 21-4, setting the all-time record for victories in a season, for a team that with its other pitchers went 16-28. He nearly single-handedly led his team, Santa Clara, to a tie for the lead at the end of the season, resulting in a 3-game playoff against Martín Dihigo's Marianao team. In the first game Brown beat Dihigo 6 to 1, but Marianao won the second game 4 to 2. In game 3, Brown again squared off against Dihigo with only two days rest, but this time Marianao won the game, and the pennant, 7 to 3. Reminiscent of Chesbro, 1904.

Brown's next two Cuban seasons were also very successful. Brown was the top pitcher on the pennant-winning team each season, though he received considerably more support as Santa Clara added Sam Bankhead, Lázaro Salazar, Bob Griffith, and (in 1938-39) Josh Gibson.

[deleted: season batting and pitching records with notes]
<<

Good stuff thanks, Brown does look very impressive for both Cuba and Mexico.

The annual election (2010) will be in November-December which is only a few years away here. Chris Cobb, the foremost author of MLEs for Negro Leagues and some foreign leagues, is also the one who took the lead in discussion last fall. He focused on pitchers, and may do so again (the group didn't elect any). Maybe he will take a suggestion to revisit MLEs for Smith this fall.
I will make the suggestion, if I remember this. It won't hurt to have it voiced more than once. And it won't hurt to have it voiced this year, although Alomar, Larkin, and Martinez or McGriff will probably win all three places.

Thanks.

jalbright

08-31-2009, 04:03 AM

PVNICK

08-31-2009, 04:39 AM

Captain Cold Nose

08-31-2009, 05:11 AM

1. Willie Keeler
2. Cool Papa Bell
3. Charles Radbourne
4. Zack Wheat
5. Ray Brown
6. Max Carey
7. Ted Lyons
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Rube Waddell
10. Pie Traynor
11. Sam Thompson
12. Biz Mackey

Contributors

1. Charles Comiskey
2. Frank Chance
3. Casey Stengel
4. Alfred Spink
5. Cum Posey

jalbright

08-31-2009, 05:48 AM

1. Ray Brown
2. Hoss Radbourne
3. Pie Traynor
4. Bob Caruthers
5. Willie Keeler
6. Stan Coveleski
7. Bill Terry
8. Zack Wheat
9. Joe Jackson
10. Rube Waddell
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Earl Averill

1. Albert Spink
2. Selee
3. Huggins
4. O.P. Caylor
5. Tom Connolly

I'm assuming this is the ballot you want to cast, as only the change is from a second Joe Jackson vote at #12 to Averill. If you want to vote for someone else, let me know. I'll delete the prior vote to eliminate confusion.

jjpm74

08-31-2009, 06:20 AM

Players:

1. Ray Brown
2. Ezra Sutton
3. Joe Start
4. Red Ruffing
5. Charlie Bennett
6. Rabbit Maranville
7. Pie Traynor
8. Cool Papa Bell
9. Ted Lyons
10. Zach Wheat
11. Bid McPhee
12. Willie Keeler

Contributors:

1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Cum Posey
3. Charley Comiskey
4. Dickey Pearce
5. Alfred Spink

PVNICK

08-31-2009, 06:35 AM

I'm assuming this is the ballot you want to cast, as only the change is from a second Joe Jackson vote at #12 to Averill. If you want to vote for someone else, let me know. I'll delete the prior vote to eliminate confusion.
Thank you.

Freakshow

08-31-2009, 09:52 AM

1 Joe Jackson
2 Ray Brown
3 Zack Wheat
4 Ted Lyons
5 Joe Start
6 Bid McPhee
7 Billy Herman
8 Red Faber
9 Wes Ferrell
10 Elmer Flick
11 George Gore
12 Charley Radbourn

Brad Harris

08-31-2009, 10:45 AM

If I have two (relatively) great pitchers to choose from. I'll take the starter over the reliever every time.

Dogdaze

08-31-2009, 01:07 PM

Dogdaze,

You raised legitimate questions, and I tend to agree that Smith doesn't quite get his due. I'm just a little more sure that Brown was a top pitcher than I am with Smith for the reasons I gave. It may well be that the business of the Negro Leagues works against Smith, and when combined with the incomplete data, creates that impression--but it's the best I can go with. That and the fact I know that Smith isn't regarded as highly here at BBF or at the BBTF (he is in the BBF HOF) as Brown kind of seals my vote in that direction. There's plenty of time to get Smith in, and you'll have at least one ally in that effort down the road.

Thank you Jim, I appreciate the dialogue on this subject. You’ve given me some food for thought, which I’ll continue to review. Brown does appear to have a better winter league record in both Cuba and Mexico, so for me that helps close the gap just a bit and makes them both very close in rank. I’m still not 100% convinced Brown was the better pitcher, but I’ll put this subject on the shelf for now.

Dogdaze

08-31-2009, 01:14 PM

If I have two (relatively) great pitchers to choose from. I'll take the starter over the reliever every time.

A good point and one I’d agree with if Smith was like modern relievers only pitching three or less innings. But Smith wasn’t always just Paige’s reliever throughout his career, other then the years while Paige was on the Monarchs, Smith was a starter for them. The long relief role of Smith started when Paige joined the Monarchs and lasted approximately seven years. From what I’ve read, Paige would often pitch the first three innings then Smith would pitch the next six. I mentioned on post # 18 that I believe this was more of a business decision by the Monarchs, though it’s just speculation on my part. Since the bottom line was money, and Paige was the big draw, I assume it would have been very important to win the games Paige started to keep the fans coming back. Smith who was apparently a great pitcher should have been one of their top starters rather then Paige’s relief but I'm guessing it was more of a business decision as to why Smith pitched after Paige.

Dogdaze

08-31-2009, 01:18 PM

Players:

1. Zack Wheat
2. Willie Foster
3. Cool Papa Bell
4. Old Hoss Radbourn
5. Biz Mackey
6. Hilton Smith
7. Ray Brown
8. Frank Grant
9. Home Run Johnson
10. Rube Waddell
11. Pie Traynor
12. John Beckwith

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Charles Comiskey
5. Casey Stengel

jalbright

08-31-2009, 01:33 PM

Let's use the Shadows of Glory data a bit:

SNC=start not completed
rel app=relief appearance

Year PaigeSNC.. Smith rel app
1941 9............ 7
1942 10.......... 6
1943 17.......... 3
1944 9............ 4
1945 7............ 1
1946 5............ 6
1947 1............ 2

In 1941 and 1942, and then again in 1946, Smith could have been Paige's designated long reliever in league games. I leave out 1947 because 1 game not finished doesn't prove much. Smith certainly didn't have that role in 1943 or 1945, and it's questionable if he did in 1944. I've got to wonder if the designated long reliever bit wasn't used more in barnstorming games rather than league games. That would make sense, as why would you want to waste two good pitchers in a single league game?

In barnstorming games, if Satch's few innings were up and it still was close, (particularly if you had a few days off) it might make sense to use a good starter to make sure you won and were still seen by the public as a challenge to beat (the better to draw fans to see their barnstorming games). Of course, if they'd jumped to a big lead, they might have used a lesser pitcher to hold the fort.

jalbright

08-31-2009, 01:52 PM

We have a quorum of ten player ballots, and are only two away from that mark on the contributor side. There's tight races for the third and final player spot and the contributor spot this time around, at least at present.

Dogdaze

08-31-2009, 01:55 PM

jalbright

08-31-2009, 02:13 PM

Thank you Jim, I appreciate the dialogue on this subject. You’ve given me some food for thought, which I’ll continue to review. Brown does appear to have a better winter league record in both Cuba and Mexico, so for me that helps close the gap just a bit and makes them both very close in rank. I’m still not 100% convinced Brown was the better pitcher, but I’ll put this subject on the shelf for now.

There's a lot of fill in the gaps with Negro Leaguers, and so ranking them perfectly probably isn't possible. As you've probably noticed, I like delving into things like this about the Negro Leagues--it was such a different world, and the data either unavailable or scattered, that it's amazing what we can learn by doing a little digging/critical review of what we do have.

Brad Harris

08-31-2009, 02:42 PM

Players
1. Ray Brown
2. Zack Wheat
3. Ted Lyons
4. Joe Start
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Rube Waddell
7. Red Ruffing
8. Cool Papa Bell
9. Billy Herman
10. Stan Hack
11. Willie Foster
12. Harry Stovey

Contributors
1. J.G. Taylor Spink
2. Larry MacPhail
3. Charles Comiskey
4. Frank Selee
5. Casey Stengel

Paul Wendt

08-31-2009, 04:14 PM

Two by the ways:

>>[quoting me]
The annual election (2010) will be in November-December which is only a few years away here. Chris Cobb, the foremost author of MLEs for Negro Leagues and some foreign leagues, is also the one who took the lead in discussion last fall. He focused on pitchers, and may do so again (the group didn't elect any). Maybe he will take a suggestion to revisit MLEs for Smith this fall.
I will make the suggestion, if I remember this. It won't hurt to have it voiced more than once. And it won't hurt to have it voiced this year, although Alomar, Larkin, and Martinez or McGriff will probably win all three places.
<<

Thanks.(Dd's emphasis, then mine :))

Anyone is welcome to participate in the annual election at the Hall of Merit, whose discussion thread is already open (2010 Ballot Discussion (HOM) (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/2010_ballot_discussion)). I have been a heavy participant almost since 2002 inception, although I have voted only in a couple of special elections. Voting is almost open to anyone who will prepare the 15-deep ballot with required comments. More information will be available in November.

P.S. There is plenty of room pitchers to win election to the Hall of Merit without being judged better than Ray Brown. He finished ninth last year in a special election ranking the 19 member pitchers who worked primarily 1923-1958, about even with Hal Newhouser and Whitey Ford.
Willie Foster is one of those pitchers somewhere in the "plenty of room" below Ray Brown, according to HOM opinion. In the same special election Foster finished 14th, about even with Red Ruffing.

Paul Wendt

08-31-2009, 04:43 PM

I suppose that Satchel Paige rather than the Kansas City Monarchs was the big draw in the West. Everyone seems to agree. If we're right, then it may have been crucial for promotion that Paige pitch in every game rather than that the Monarchs win every game he pitched. Using Hilton Smith as his designated relief, if/when that was the practice, would have enabled Paige to pitch every game, even one in the morning and one at night followed by one the next afternoon.

Do we know whether the Monarchs traveled on lengthy "barnstorming" tours? Or did they play league games in KC and other big cities almost every weekend, with barnstorming games mid-week?

Whatever its details, the role of Paige in relation to the Monarchs team seems to me in sharp contrast with the Cuban Giants and their successors in the East, at least the Cuban X-Giants and the Philadelphia Giants. The heydays of those three clubs covered about two decades, the 1890s and 1900s. The teams rather than any of their players were the draw. It is my impression that John Donaldson, in the West a generation before Paige, was like Paige a crucial draw himself.

jalbright

08-31-2009, 05:56 PM

Paige may have been more of a draw than the Monarchs, but let's not forget that the Monarchs were one of blackball's best teams from their founding around 1920 to the decline of the Negro Leagues after integration. They had the wherewithal to afford Paige, which paid dividends. The best teams drew better, which meant the players got paid more, which attracted more of the best players, in a positive spiral.

J W

09-01-2009, 03:50 PM

Players

1. Joe Jackson
2. Cool Papa Bell
3. Biz Mackey
4. Frank Grant
5. Rube Waddell
6. Stan Coveleski
7. Stan Hack
8. Billy Herman
9. Charley Radbourn
10. Ray Brown
11. Pie Traynor
12. Joe Sewell

Contributors

1. Alfred Spink
2. Ed Bolden
3. Miller Huggins
4. Tom Connolly
5. Frank Selee

jalbright

09-01-2009, 04:46 PM

We now have a quorum on the contributor side as well.

Brad Harris

09-02-2009, 03:15 PM

We now have a quorum on the contributor side as well.
And there was much rejoicing.

Yay.

jalbright

09-05-2009, 05:56 AM

We still have two voters from last election yet to vote in this one. I've been in PM contact with Paul Wendt on another matter, and reminded him of that today, and if I don't hear from jaxxr by Monday evening, I'll PM him to remind him to vote as well. Of course, new or returning voters are quite welcome.

jalbright

09-05-2009, 06:09 AM

The 1957 new player class will give us at least one and probably two strong candidates:

Danning , Harry
Greenberg , Hank
McCormick , Frank
Medwick , Joe
Mungo , Van
O'Neill , Buck

Greenberg should sail in, and I have a feeling Medwick will join him. The rest of that class shouldn't get much notice on the player side. I love Buck O'Neill, but as a contributor. He wasn't near greatness as a player IMHO.

Speaking of contributors, the contributors will add Steve O'Neill, who doesn't strike me as the strongest of candidates.

Paul Wendt

09-05-2009, 09:33 AM

Since we are open for two weeks, I should vote during down time to help keep the thread on the first page. It doesn't look good that every new message is from the moderator. Baseball historians are going off to college and learning about baseball-fever for the first time. They should see a ballot. ;)

> Greenberg should sail in, and I have a feeling Medwick will join him.

The Duck should waddle slowly but the Goose was airborne and it may happen again.
(I wouldn't be voting for G yet, not to mention D.)

> Speaking of contributors, the contributors will add Steve O'Neill, who doesn't strike me as the strongest of candidates.

behind McKechnie and Southworth, I believe, but he deserves a mention next door. Thanks.

Domenic

09-05-2009, 09:52 AM

Greenberg will likely top my ballot, and I'm guessing that Medwick will come in around seventh or eighth.

jaxxr

09-06-2009, 05:02 PM

1 Joe Jackson
2 Addie Joss
3 Willie Keeler
4 Bid McPhee
5 Rube Waddell
6 Chuck Klien
7 Bill Terry
8 Dizzy Dean
9 Pie Traynor
10 Cool Papa Bell
11 "Hoss' Radbourn
12 Willie Foster

Brad Harris

09-07-2009, 05:35 PM

Greenberg will likely top my ballot, and I'm guessing that Medwick will come in around seventh or eighth.
Me too. Greenberg on top and Medwick somewhere in the top half (depending on who gets elected this year.)

jjpm74

09-07-2009, 09:36 PM

Given that Zack Wheat, who was much better than Duckey Medwick hasn't been elected, I do not understand why anyone would be considering Medwick in the middle of their existing queue at this point. There are quite a few excellent candidates that have not yet been elected who are much stronger candidates than Medwick at this point. Most notably in no particular order:

Averill , Earl
Beckwith , John
Bennett , Charlie
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Brown , Ray
Carey , Max
Caruthers , Bob
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Childs , Cupid
Coveleski , Stan
Ferrell , Wes
Galvin , Pud
Gore , George
Grimes , Burleigh
Groh , Heinie
Hack , Stan
Leach , Tommy
Lyons , Ted
Maranville , Rabbit
McPhee , Bid
McVey , Cal
Moore , Dobie
Rixey , Eppa
Roush , Edd
Start , Joe
Sutton , Ezra
Traynor , Pie
Wheat , Zack

Putting it very simply, what makes Medwick better than all these candidates that he deserves a strong showing in his first year of eligibility where none of these candidates have?

jalbright

09-08-2009, 01:56 PM

A couple of things:

1) It's almost a lock at this point that at least two of the names on the list will be elected this season.

2) As I read the issue posed, it's no surprise that Medwick would do better now than many of those listed did when they entered the ballot--we're steadily sliding down toward the borderline of Cooperstown. Perhaps a better complaint would be why he should finish ahead of those folks now. Some I agree with putting ahead of Medwick, and some are at least close and may deserve a bit more consideration because they've been on the ballot longer. However, there are a number in that list that I simply would not put above Medwick. We all have our personal choices and evaluations, but sometimes, those personal choices/evaluations run counter to those of the group. We'll see how Medwick does.

jalbright

09-11-2009, 07:08 AM

This election ends in just under 14 hours from the time I'm posting it.

Paul Wendt

09-11-2009, 07:14 AM

SS Jack Glasscock returns to my ballot.
Clearly it's time to register that I don't disapprove of LF Zack Wheat at this stage.
3B Ezra Sutton completes the 1880s infield. Will we have a Nine before Charlie Radbourn is elected?

1955 ballot
1 Ray Brown
2 Grant Johnson
3 Charlie Radbourn
4 George Gore
5 Joe Start
6 Ted Lyons
7 Elmer Flick
8 Bid McPhee
9 Heinie Groh
10 Jack Glasscock
11 Zack Wheat
12 Ezra Sutton

next, perhaps 2b Billy Herman

some others,
c : Charlie Bennett
3b: Stan Hack ?
ss: ?
2b: Hardy Richardson
1b: ?
of: Willie Keeler ?
cf: Pete Hill ?
p : Stan Coveleski and others who are getting a vote or three

Contributors
1 Charlie Comiskey
2 Cum Posey
3 J.L. Wilkinson
4 J.G. Taylor Spink
5 Frank Selee

jjpm74

09-11-2009, 07:58 AM

A little quick campaigning for Larry MacPhail for next year, quoting his SABR Bioproject (http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&pid=8621&bid=1070):

MacPhail was unquestionably a genius. A list of his innovations and accomplishments in the game boggles the mind:

1. First night game in the major leagues
2. First televised game (August 26, 1939)
3. First to introduce "Old Timers' Games" to the majors
4. First to establish pension funds for club employees throughout all levels of baseball
5. Headed first committee for players' pension funds, the finest in sports
6. First to use air plane travel for baseball teams
7. First to shake up New York City by broadcasting all home and road games. (The first radio broadcast of a baseball game in the majors was by Harold Arlen in Pittsburgh in 1921.)
8. First to introduce yellow baseballs, which were never accepted in baseball came to the fore in both tennis and golf
9. First to regularly schedule doubleheaders
10. First to install a stadium club
11. First to introduce season ticket plan
12. First to develop and introduce protective batting helmets (see McKelvey, The MacPhails)

To observe MacPhail is to watch the up-and-down motion of a seesaw. He had a talent for bailing out poor teams in desperate financial straits. Able to wheel and deal, he saw opportunities way ahead of other baseball executives. But just when his clubs were making money and winning, he self-destructed. While alienating almost everyone around him, MacPhail was an oracle who saw how baseball could survive, and even flourish, in a changing world.

Larry MacPhail got in people's faces. He wore flashy clothes and drank heavily, yet had the nerve of an entrepreneur. His swiftly changing moods made him difficult if not impossible to comprehend. He would fire Leo Durocher many times only to rehire him the next day. But his teams always made money. Not surprisingly, many thought he verged on insanity.

MacPhail is likely to earn a spot on my ballot next election.

jalbright

09-12-2009, 09:31 AM

With 14 player ballots, we elected Cool Papa Bell, Ray Brown and Zack Wheat. At this point, I'm satisfied we will not need a Veteran's Committee vote for Negro Leaguers, and that possibility will no longer be mentioned in the rules. The official results:

Player……. votes points
Brown, Ray 12 120
Wheat , Zack 11 91
Bell, Cool P 11 69
Radbourn , C 9 65
Jackson , Joe 6 63
Lyons , Ted 8 63
Waddell , Rube 9 55
Keeler , Willie 6 43
Johnson , HR 6 40
Foster, Willie 7 38
Start , Joe 4 35
Herman, Billy 5 29
Ruffing , Red 4 29
Traynor , Pie 7 28
McPhee , Bid 4 23
Coveleski , S 3 19
Flick , Elmer 3 19
Mackey, Biz 3 19
Groh , Heinie 3 18
Terry , Bill 3 17
Klein, Chuck 2 16
Dean, Dizzy 3 15
Hack, Stan 4 15
Stovey , Harry 4 15
Grant , Frank 2 14
Thompson , S 2 14
Bennett , C 2 12
Ferrell, Wes 3 12
Gore , George 3 12
Sutton , Ezra 2 12
Joss , Addie 1 11
Caruthers , B 1 9
Carey , Max 1 7
Maranville , R 1 7
Smith, Hilton 1 7
Berger , Wally 1 6
Hill , Pete…….. 1 6
Faber , Red 1 5
Beckwith, John 3 3
Glasscock , J 1 3
Jennings , H 1 3
Duffy , Hugh 1 2
Averill, Earl 1 1
Galvin , Pud 1 1
Sewell , Joe 1 1

We had 11 contributor ballots, and have elected Charlie Commiskey. The official results:

Contributor……. votes points
Commiskey , C 8 28
Posey, Cum 7 23
Spink, Alfred 6 18
Stengel , Casey 6 16
Spink, JGT 5 13
Taylor , C. I. 3 11
Huggins , M 4 9
Selee , Frank 4 8
Pearce, Dickey 2 7
MacPhail , L 2 6
Doubleday , A 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Bolden, Ed 1 4
Chance , Frank 1 4
Connolly , Tom 2 3
Wilkinson, JL 1 3
Caylor , O. P. 1 2