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Ace Venom
09-10-2009, 08:27 AM
1960 Players VC Election

Below is the final ballot for the 1960 VC Players Election. Voters can vote for as many candidates as they wish with 75% support required to elect a player. Voting will be open for seven days, at which point we'll tabulate votes provided we have a quorum consisting of at least 12 of the 15 VC members having voted. Anyone is free to participate in the discussion and submit a ballot but only ballots from the 15 VC members will be counted.

- The 1960 ballot will consist of:
1) Every player that previously made a final VC ballot;
2) Every player that received at least 1/3 support in the regular election;
3) Every player that lasted 15 years on the regular ballot.

-Voters can vote for as many players as they wish on the ballot and can also vote for up to 2 write-in candidates. If any write-in candidates receive at least 50% support, I'll list him on the next ballot. I will supply a master list so voters know who is eligible for write-ins

- If a player on the ballot does not receive at least 2 votes he will not appear on the following ballot (though the player will be eligible for write-in votes). So the 1965 ballot will consist of:
1) Every player from the 1960 ballot who received at least 2 votes;
2) Every newly eligible player that received 1/3 support in the regular election or lasted 15 years on the regular ballot; and
3) Any players who received at least 4 (or roughly 1/3) votes as a write-in in the 1960 elections.

1955 Final Ballot (32)
Buzz Arlett
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combes
Larry Corcoran
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Kiki Cuyler
Johnny Evers
Mike Griffin
Burleigh Grimes
Babe Herman
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Ed Konetchy
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed Reulbach
Wally Schang
Urban Shocker
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Hippo Vaughan
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson

PAST RESULTS

Wilbur Cooper (1950)
Clark Griffith (1940)
Tommy Leach (1940)
Herman Long (1925)
Rabbit Maranville (1955)
Cal McVey (1920)
Dickey Pearce (1920)
Lip Pike (1920)
Sam Rice (1955)
Hardy Richardson (1920)
Eppa Rixey (1955)
Jimmy Ryan (1930)
Jimmy Sheckard (1945)
Joe Start (1920)
Ezra Sutton (1920)
Mickey Welch (1920)



1955 Final Results (13 Ballots Cast, 9 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=92049)
1) Rabbit Maranville: 13 Votes (100%) - Elected
2) Eppa Rixey: 12 Votes (92.30%) - Elected
3) Sam Rice: 10 Votes (76.92%) - Elected
4) Burleigh Grimes: 9 Votes (69.23%)
5) Carl Mays: 8 Votes (61.54%)
t6) Chief Bender: 7 Votes (53.85%)
t6) Charley Jones: 7 Votes (53.85%)
t6) Wally Schang: 7 Votes (53.85%)
t6) Urban Shocker: 7 Votes (53.85%)
10) Hack Wilson: 6 Votes (46.15%)
11) Candy Cummings: 5 Votes (38.46%)
t12) Dave Bancroft: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t12) Jack Chesbro: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t12) Gavvy Cravath: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t12) Lave Cross: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t12) Jim McCormick: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t12) John McGraw: 4 Votes (30.77%)*
t18) Earle Combes: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Johnny Evers: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Johnny Kling: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Ed Reulbach: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Mike Tiernan: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Joe Tinker: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Bobby Veach: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t18) Ross Youngs: 3 Votes (23.08%)*
t26) Buzz Arlett: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t26) Larry Corcoran: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t26) Mike Griffin: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t26) Ed Konetchy: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t26) Deacon McGuire: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t26) Hippo Vaughan: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t32) George J. Burns: 1 Vote (7.70%)
t32) Fielder Jones: 1 Vote (7.70%)*
t32) Joe Judge: 1 Vote (7.70%)*
t32) Firpo Marberry: 1 Vote (7.70%)*
t32) Tip O'Neill: 1 Vote (7.70%)*
t32) Roy Thomas: 1 Vote (7.70%)*

* Write-in candidate

1950 Final Results (12 Ballots Cast, 9 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90804)
1) Wilbur Cooper: 75.00% (9 Votes) - Elected
2) Carl Mays: 66.67% (8 Votes)
3) Urban Shocker: 58.33% (7 Votes)
4) Chief Bender: 50.00% (6 Votes)
t5) Lave Cross: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t5) Charley Jones: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t5) Jim McCormick: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t8) Tommy Bond: 33.33% (4 Votes)
t8) Larry Corcoran: 33.33% (4 Votes)
t8) John McGraw: 33.33% (4 Votes)*
t8) Mike Tiernan: 33.33% (4 Votes)
t8) Ross Youngs: 33.33% (4 Votes)
t13) Buzz Arlett: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t13) Dave Bancroft: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t13) Gavvy Cravvath: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t13) Candy Cummings: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t13) Johnny Evers: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t13) Bobby Veach: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t19) George J. Burns: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Jack Chesbro: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Mike Griffin: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Johnny Kling: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Ed Konetchy: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Deacon McGuire: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Ed Reulbach: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Roy Thomas: 16.67% (2 Votes)*
t19) Joe Tinker: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t19) Hippo Vaughn: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t29) Mike Donlin: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t29) Fred Dunlap: 8.33% (1 Vote)*
t29) Denny Lyons: 8.33% (1 Vote)*
t29) Bobby Mathews: 8.33% (1 Vote)*
t29) Ed McKean: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t29) Tip O'Neill: 8.33% (1 Vote)*
t29) Ned Williamson: 8.33% (1 Vote)
36) Ray Schalk: 0.00% (0 Votes)

* = Write-in Candidate

1945 Final Results (12 Ballots Cast, 9 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89707)
1) Jimmy Sheckard: 83.33% (10 Votes) - Elected
2) Mike Tiernan: 50.00% (6 Votes)
t3) Chief Bender: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t3) Johnny Evvers: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t3) Charley Jones: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t3) Jim McCormick: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t7) Gavvy Cravath: 33.33% (4 Votes)
t7) Lave Cross: 33.33% (4 Votes)
t9) Tommy Bond: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) George J. Burns: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Candy Cummings: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Mike Griffin: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Johnny Kling: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Ed Konetchy: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Ed McKean: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Joe Tinker: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Bobby Veach: 25.00% (3 Votes)
t18) Jack Chesbro: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t18) Larry Corcoran: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t18) Mike Donlin: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t18) Deacon McGuire: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t18) Ed Reulbach: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t18) Hippo Vaughn: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t18) Ned Williamson: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t25) Larry Gardner: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t25) Harry Hooper: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t25) Dummy Hoy: 8.33% (1 Vote) - Write-in
t25) Fielder Jones: 8.33% (1 Vote) - Write-in
t25) Silver King: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t25) Dolf Luque: 8.33% (1 Vote) - Write-in
t25) Denny Lyons: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t25) Roy Thomas: 8.33% (1 Vote) - Write-in
t25) Joe Wood: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t34) Fred Dunlap: 0.00%
t34) Dave Foutz: 0.00%

1940 Final Results (14 Ballots Cast, 11 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87854)
1) Tommy Leach: 85.71% (12 Votes) - Elected
2) Clark Griffith: 78.57% (11 Votes) - Elected
3) Jimmy Scheckard: 64.29% (9 Votes)
t4) Charley Jones: 50.00% (7 Votes)
t4) Mike Tiernan: 50.00% (7 Votes)
6) Gavvy Gravath: 42.86% (6 Votes)
7) Jim McCormick: 28.57% (4 Votes)
8) Lave Cross: 14.29% (2 Votes)

1935 Final Results (14 Ballots Cast, 11 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86576)
1) Clark Griffith: 71.43% (10 Votes)
2) Jimmy Sheckard: 57.14% (8 Votes)
3) Mike Tiernan: 50.00% (7 Votes)
4) Jim McCormick: 42.86% (6 Votes)
5) Charley Jones: 35.71% (5 Votes)
6) Lave Cross: 25.00% (4 Votes)
7) Tommy Bond: 18.75% (3 Votes)
8) Ned Williamson: 14.29% (2 Votes)
9) Jack Chesbro: 0% (0 Votes)

1930 Final Results (15 Ballots Cast, 12 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439)
1) Jimmy Ryan: 86.67% (12 Votes) - Elected
2) Clark Griffith: 66.67% (10 Votes)
3) Jim McCormick: 40.00% (6 Votes)
t4) Lave Cross: 33.33% (5 Votes)
t4) Charley Jones: 33.33% (5 Votes)
t4) Mike Tiernan: 33.33% (5 Votes)
7) Candy Cummings: 26.67% (4 Votes)
8) Jack Chesbro: 20.00% (3 Votes)
t9) Tommy Bond: 13.33% (2 Votes)
t9) Mike Griffin: 13.33% (2 Votes)
t9) Deacon McGuire: 13.33% (2 Votes)
t9) Ed McKean: 13.33% (2 Votes)
13) Tip O'Neill: 6.67% (1 Vote)

1925 Final Results (12 Ballots Cast, 9 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)
1) Herman Long: 75.00% (9 Votes) - Elected
2) Jimmy Ryan: 66.67% (8 Votes)
3) Mike Tiernan: 50.00% (6 Votes)
t4) Candy Cummings: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t4) Charley Jones: 41.67% (5 Votes)
t4) Jim McCormick: 41.67% (5 Votes)
7) Ed McKean: 33.33% (4 Votes)
8) Mike Griffin: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t9) Dave Foutz: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t9) Silver King: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t9) Tommy Bond: 8.33% (1 Vote)
12) Fred Dunlap: 0% (0 Votes)

1920 Final Results (12 Ballots Cast, 9 Votes Required for Election) (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
t1) Hardy Richardson: 91.67% (11 Votes) - Elected
t1) Joe Start: 91.67% (11 Votes) - Elected
t2) Cal McVey: 83.33% (10 Votes) - Elected
t2) Ezra Sutton: 83.33% (10 Votes) - Elected
t5) Lip Pike: 75.00% (9 Votes) - Elected
t5) Mickey Welch: 75.00% (9 Votes ) - Elected
t7) Charley Jones: 58.33% (7 Votes)
t7) Mike Tiernan: 58.33% (7 Votes)
9) Jim McCormick: 50.00% (6 Votes)
10) Ed McKean: 33.33% (4 Votes)
11) Tommy Bond: 16.67% (2 Votes)
t12) Fred Dunlap: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t12) Denny Lyons: 8.33% (1 Vote)
t12) Ned Williamson: 8.33% (1 Vote)
*Dickey Pearce - Elected in Separate Pioneer/Player Election

1960 Master List



Babe Adams
Buzz Arlett
Dave Bancroft
Dick Bartell
Ginger Beaumont
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Lu Blue
Tommy Bond
Jim Bottomley
Bill Bradley
Kitty Bransfield
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
George J. Burns
Oyster Burns
Ray Chapman
Jack Chesbro
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Harlond Clift
Earle Combs
Jack Coombs
Larry Corcoran
Tommy Corcoran
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Nig Cuppy
Kiki Cuyler
Abner Dalyrmple
Harry Davis
Paul Derringer
Bill Dinneen
Mike Donlin
Bill Donovan
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap
Frank Dwyer
Jimmie Dykes
Johnny Evers
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson
Rick Ferrell
Cherokee Fisher
Ray Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint
Davy Force
Russ Ford
Dave Foutz
Augie Galan
Larry Gardner
Kid Gleason
Mike Griffin
Burleigh Grimes
Chick Hafey
Noodles Hahn
Ned Hanlon
Topsy Hartsel
Claude Hendrix
Babe Herman
Buck Herzog
Solly Hofman
Harry Hooper
Dummy Hoy
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Travis Jackson
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Joe Judge
Benny Kauff
George Kelly
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Johnny Kling
Ed Konetchy
Arlie Latham
Tony Lazzeri
Sam Leever
Andy Leonard
Al Lopez
Bobby Lowe
Dolf Luque
Denny Lyons
Fergy Malone
Heinie Manush
Marty Marion
Pepper Martin
Bobby Mathews
Firpo Marberry
Rube Marquard
Carl Mays
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Levi Meyerle
Billy Nash
Jack O'Connor
Lefty O'Doul
Tip O'Neal
Dave Orr
Orval Overall
Herb Pennock
John Peters
Deacon Phillippe
Jack Powell
Del Pratt
Jack Quinn
Ed Reulbach
Claude Ritchey
Wilbert Robinson
Jack Rowe
Cy Seymour
Ray Schalk
Wally Schang
Urban Shocker
Chick Stahl
Eddie Stanky
George Stone
George Stovall
Jesse Tannehill
Jeff Tesreau
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Terry Turner
Johnny Vander Meer
Hippo Vaughn
Bobby Veach
John Warner
Doc White
Will White
Jim Whitney
Cy Williams
Jimmy Williams
Ned Williamson
Hack Wilson
Hooks Wiltsie
Joe Wood
Rudy York
Tom York
Ross Youngs
George Zettlein
Chief Zimmer

Ace Venom
09-10-2009, 08:29 AM
The Veterans Committee

Ace Venom
brad harris
captain cold nose
cowtipper
dgarza
Domenic
DoubleX
Jalbright
jjpm74
KCGhost
Leecemark
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
pvnick
SavoyBG

-The VC has been trimmed to 14 members. Any former members can return by request. Any member that no longer wishes to participate in the VC can notify me by PM or by posting in this thread.
-Any VC member that wants to participate in the Negro League VC should notify me via PM. I want to establish a separate 12 member committee for the Negro League VC.

jjpm74
09-10-2009, 09:11 AM
Ballot:

Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Burleigh Grimes
Charley Jones
Tony Lazzeri
Herb Pennock (write in)
Wally Schang
Urban Shocker
Roy Thomas (write in)
Hack Wilson

Ace Venom
09-10-2009, 10:14 AM
Ballot:

Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Larry Corcoran
Kiki Cuyler
Johnny Evers
Burleigh Grimes
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Ed Konetchy
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Carl Mays
John McGraw
Urban Shocker
Joe Tinker
Hack Wilson

PVNICK
09-10-2009, 10:36 AM
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Ray Chapman
Lave Cross
Paul Derringer
Johnny Evers
Mike Griffin
Burleigh Grimes
Charley Jones
Johnny Kling
Carl Mays
Levi Meyerle
Ray Schalk
Wally Schang
Urban Shocker
Mike Tiernan
Hippo Vaughn
Jimmy Williams
Ned Williamson
Ross Youngs

Jimmy Williams is a new one and b/c he played with Lajoie is under the radar. A 115 OPS+ in 11 full seasons and 6000+ PA is not inconsequential. And from my reading of the crude numbers available he was at least above average with the glove. He at least merits a look or a thought.

Domenic
09-10-2009, 11:06 AM
Wally Berger
Gavvy Cravath
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Lazzeri
Carl Mays
John McGraw
Urban Shocker

KCGHOST
09-10-2009, 12:09 PM
Grimes
McGraw
Shocker
Tiernan

Paul Wendt
09-10-2009, 12:14 PM
That must be Jim McCormick, not Mike M.

Who is new on the ballot? Herman and Manush only?

If any of you strongly supports a candidate please explain why he belongs in this Hall of Fame and I may be persuaded. This may be useful especially for any new candidate --if there is one other than Herman and Manush where I doubt that I can be persuaded.

jjpm74
09-10-2009, 12:33 PM
That must be Jim McCormick, not Mike M.

Who is new on the ballot? Herman and Manush only?

If any of you strongly supports a candidate please explain why he belongs in this Hall of Fame and I may be persuaded. This may be useful especially for any new candidate --if there is one other than Herman and Manush where I doubt that I can be persuaded.

There is no one on my VC ballot that I would say I strongly support. They are all gray area guys that are either close to, or slightly better than the bottom players in this project's HOF with the exception of Chief Bender who I give some extra credit to for his status as the 1st high profile minority player in major league baseball.

One player who did receive strong support and a great deal of discussion in the standard threads, however, who I think is eligible this year for the 1st time (was he on the last VC player's ballot?) is Wally Berger. He compares very favorably to Hack Wilson. So much so, that I remember several participants in this project repeatedly inquiring as to why there were several participants voting for Wilson but not Berger. Unfortunately, no one ever gave a reason why Wilson would be a better candidate than Wally Berger. Especially when some discussion on what makes Wally Berger a lesser candidate than Hack Wilson may actually persuade someone like myself to remove him from my ballot.

Ace Venom
09-10-2009, 12:35 PM
Here are the new additions to the final ballot:
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Babe Herman
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush

If anyone cares, these are the new additions to the master list (including players on the final ballot):
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Paul Derringer
Rick Ferrell
Augie Galan
Babe Herman
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Marty Marion
Eddie Stanky
Johnny Vander Meer

jjpm74
09-10-2009, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the reminder. I overlooked Lazzeri entirely and have just added him to my ballot. I also added Roy Thomas.

Ace Venom
09-10-2009, 12:51 PM
With the exception of Babe Herman, I voted for the other newcomers to the final ballot multiple times on the regular ballot. Lazzeri was slowly picking up support, topping 50% for his final year on the ballot. Given that surge in support, he probably justifies a little more discussion among the VC. Heinie Manush, Jim Bottomley and Kiki Cuyler never really enjoyed strong support to the level that Lazzeri eventually received. Wally Berger is another player who enjoyed strong support and I believe SABRMatt provided PCA data for Berger that I can try to dig up from earlier threads. Either way, it's something I won't get into until I have a little more time.

It would probably be worth charting the fluctuations in support for these players to gauge how they enjoyed support from the general electorate and plot that against support given by past and present VC members. This is easily accessible because the voting records are public. I can vaguely predict who will make the VC based on voting patterns and I can use that same logic to vaguely predict who will eventually get in via the VC. Charting the data will save the guesswork, but it would also require more time than I actually have.

Domenic
09-10-2009, 01:56 PM
A quick case for Wally Berger:

Statistical
A- DWS in CF (Three DWS Gold Gloves)
137 OPS+
.308 EQA
.395 wOBA
1928-29 in the PCL:

75 2B, 12 3B, 60 HR, .332 BA, .550 SLG in 1279 AB
Top-ten in HR in ten of eleven full seasons
Led NL position players in WS in 1931 and 1933
Led ML CF'ers in WS in 1931, 1933, and 1934; Led NL CF'ers in 1932

Journalistic/Semantic
In his rookie season, "Berger hit two balls out of Braves Field and onto the Boston & Albany Railroad tracks." The Boston Braves, 1948
"His timely hitting beat the third-place Giants by one-run margins five times over the course of the season." Id.
"[O]n May 30, 1931, became one of only five players ever to hit a ball out of Baker Bowl to left field." - Bob Bogart
In 1933, Berger hit 27 of his team's 54 HR, and drove in 106 of 511 R.
Berger started the first two All-Star games, being selected to the first four.

jalbright
09-10-2009, 02:03 PM
Grimes
Mays
H. Wilson

dgarza
09-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combs
Larry Corcoran
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Kiki Cuyler
Johnny Evers
Burleigh Grimes
Babe Herman
Charley Jones
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Firpo Marberry (write in)
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
Tip O'Neill (write in)
Urban Shocker
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Hippo Vaughan
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson

Paul Wendt
09-10-2009, 04:28 PM
Here are the new additions to the final ballot: ...
Thanks.

... Charting the data will save the guesswork, but it would also require more time than I actually have.
I agree. Don't let this distract you from graduate school work. Don't touch unless it becomes a useful break. (I'm interested in arguments for candidates, if any, not in projections of how they will fare here.)


Domenic on Wally Berger (#13 above)

Thanks.

I have seen Wally Berger's PCL batting record. Probably I summarized it on the BBFHOF thread last year, near the end of the regular elections for that project, when a few of us voted for him. I haven't seen any league or team context for that batting record and just now I have confirmed that the team batting records and league batting leaders are empty at baseballl-reference. (1929 PCL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/league.cgi?id=13374))

Lacking any grounds for a big discount I am inclined to recognize him as a great player in 1928 and 1929 because he entered the majors as a high all-star quality player in 1930. Compare Earl Averill.

--
from the Barnes & Noble page for the reprint of that Boston Braves book Domenic cited (no kidding!):

Synopsis
Hall of Fame sportswriter Harold Kaese chronicles the ups and downs of the storied baseball franchise's 82 seasons in Boston.

Library Journal
Passionate and compact, with a horrific twist, this first novel conflates a tale of chance and dark magic with a simple story of growing up. In expiation and as bequest, dying Puerto Rican barber Facundo Nieves recounts for his precious, clubfooted son Lupe how he once cut the hair of the glorious Valentino and how the clippings became a powerful aphrodisiac with a tragic consequence. ...

SavoyBG
09-10-2009, 07:59 PM
MY BALLOT

Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Burleigh Grimes
Charley Jones
Carl Mays
John McGraw

SavoyBG
09-10-2009, 08:00 PM
This is spelled wrong:

Earle Combes

should be Combs

DoubleX
09-10-2009, 11:44 PM
Dave Bancroft
Wally Berger
Candy Cummings
Charley Jones
Tony Lazzeri
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Wally Schang
Mike Tiernan
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson

mwiggins
09-11-2009, 06:14 AM
Wally Schang
Urban Shocker
Joe Tinker
Wally Berger
Tony Lazzeri
John McGraw
Ross Youngs (write-in)

Cowtipper
09-11-2009, 10:47 AM
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
George J. Burns (write-in)
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combs
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Kiki Cuyler
Burleigh Grimes
Charley Jones
Ed Konetchy
Tony Lazzeri
Heinie Manush
Carl Mays
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Ed Ruelbach
Urban Shocker
Hippo Vaughn
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson
Ross Youngs (write in)

DoubleX
09-12-2009, 01:22 PM
One player who did receive strong support and a great deal of discussion in the standard threads, however, who I think is eligible this year for the 1st time (was he on the last VC player's ballot?) is Wally Berger. He compares very favorably to Hack Wilson. So much so, that I remember several participants in this project repeatedly inquiring as to why there were several participants voting for Wilson but not Berger. Unfortunately, no one ever gave a reason why Wilson would be a better candidate than Wally Berger. Especially when some discussion on what makes Wally Berger a lesser candidate than Hack Wilson may actually persuade someone like myself to remove him from my ballot.

I was actually the opposite - voting for Berger but not Wilson. However, I can see why one might more easily gravitate to Wilson - he had that huge 1930 where he led the league in several categories, including an NL record 56 homeruns and an MLB record 190 RBI. Statistical achievement and the resulting notoriety is worth something, though certainly varying from person to person. For instance, if someone were to break Ruth's 60 homeruns next year (1961) and would eventually retire after a good but perhaps not great career, the notoriety of his single season achievement would help his cause more than a similar player without that kind of noteworthy event.

Beyond that Wilson also had five other impressive offensive seasons, with 5 total seasons with an OPS+ over 150, Berger only had one such season. Wilson certainly had a Hall of Fame peak, but not much else. If he just had a few decent years tacked on there, he might be an easy choice (after re-reading this, I've also decided to add him to my ballot).

Berger also had a good peak in his own right and was a more well rounded player, but for many, Berger's case doesn't scream out like Wilson's does. The two are very close though.

The one player I feel somewhat strongly about is Tony Lazzeri. I still don't see him as that different from Larry Doyle, and as Mark commented earlier, Lazzeri was likely greatly hindered by his home park.

Jim McCormick is also growing for me, and while I have supported him for decades, I may try to put forth an argument for him in the future.

When this project is over sometime next year, it might be fun to have some threads discussing the greatest "snubs" and "mistakes" just as we do for Cooperstown (though I don't think we'll have as many obvious players in either category as Cooperstown does).

leecemark
09-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Lazzeri
Wally Schang

jjpm74
09-14-2009, 05:54 AM
I was actually the opposite - voting for Berger but not Wilson.

There were at least 2 people who consistently voted for Hack Wilson but not for Wally Berger.

SavoyBG
09-16-2009, 06:41 PM
Bumping up. Where do we stand with this?

Paul Wendt
09-16-2009, 06:58 PM
I've added Carl Mays and the newcomer Wally Berger. In my opinion,
Shocker > Cooper > Mays > Grimes
and I am not yet "down to Grimes".

I've dropped personal favorite Mike Griffin.

Dave Bancroft
Wally Berger
Gavy Cravath
Fielder Jones *
Charley Jones
Carl Mays
John McGraw
Urban Shocker
Roy Thomas *

* nomination

jjpm74
09-17-2009, 04:26 AM
Bumping up. Where do we stand with this?

Now that Paul cast his ballot, it looks like we're waiting for Brad Harris.

Ace Venom
09-17-2009, 01:43 PM
We have 13 votes anyway, so I'll end up tabulating the votes later.

Ace Venom
09-17-2009, 08:19 PM
1960 Final Results (13 Votes Cast, 10 Required for Election)
1) Burleigh Grimes: 10 Votes (76.92%) - Elected
t2) Wally Berger: 9 Votes (69.23%)
t2) Urban Shocker: 9 Votes (69.23%)
t4) Charley Jones: 8 Votes (61.54%)
t4) Tony Lazzeri: 8 Votes (61.54%)
t4) Carl Mays: 8 Votes (61.54%)
t7) Chief Bender: 6 Votes (46.15%)
t7) John McGraw: 6 Votes (46.15%)
t7) Hack Wilson: 6 Votes (46.15%)
10) Wally Schang: 5 Votes (38.46%)
t11) Dave Bancroft: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t11) Gavvy Cravath: 4 Votes (30.77%)
t13) Jim Bottomley: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Lave Cross: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Kiki Cuyler: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Johnny Evers: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Heinie Manush: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Jim McCormick: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Mike Tiernan: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Hippo Vaughan: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t13) Bobby Veach: 3 Votes (23.08%)
t22) Jack Chesbro: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Earle Combs: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Larry Corcoran: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Johnny Kling: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Ed Konetchy: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Deacon McGuire: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Roy Thomas: 2 Votes (15.38%) - Write-in
t22) Joe Tinker: 2 Votes (15.38%)
t22) Ross Youngs: 2 Votes (15.38%) - Write-in
t31) George J. Burns: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Ray Chapman: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Paul Derringer: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Mike Griffin: 1 Vote (7.69%)
t31) Babe Herman: 1 Vote (7.69%)
t31) Fielder Jones: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Firpo Marberry: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Tip O'Neill: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Ed Reulbach: 1 Vote (7.69%)
t31) Herb Pennock: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in
t31) Ray Schalk: 1 Vote (7.69%) - Write-in

PVNICK voted for too many write-in candidates. The opening post states you can only vote for two. I only counted Ray Chapman and Paul Derringer because they were the first two I found on the ballot. I concede that I may have tallied incorrectly, but I went over the results multiple times. We elected Burleigh Grimes.

SavoyBG
09-17-2009, 08:26 PM
1960 Final Results (13 Votes Cast, 10 Required for Election)
1) Burleigh Grimes: 10 Votes (76.92%) - Elected


Glad to see somebody elected, and also glad that only one guy got in, makes it more credible.




t2) Wally Berger: 9 Votes (69.23%)
t2) Urban Shocker: 9 Votes (69.23%)
t4) Charley Jones: 8 Votes (61.54%)
t4) Tony Lazzeri: 8 Votes (61.54%)
t4) Carl Mays: 8 Votes (61.54%)



Looks like these are the viable candidates. I'm happy that Long Charley is picking up support. All five of these guys are good candidates with Shocker probably the one who was the least thought of in his day.

SavoyBG
09-17-2009, 08:32 PM
1960 Players VC Election


1955 Final Ballot (32)
Larry Corcoran


Tomorrow I am going to a ceremony to unveil a gravestone that was made for Larry here in New Jersey. He was buried with no marker and some people here found out about it and got this done. If you are interested I posted a link to the article in the "History" section on the site.

Ace Venom
09-17-2009, 09:07 PM
Looks like these are the viable candidates. I'm happy that Long Charley is picking up support. All five of these guys are good candidates with Shocker probably the one who was the least thought of in his day.

Grimes was overdue to get in as it was. Lazzeri had a strong first showing, but this was no surprise. He pulled down at least 50% of the vote with his final two years on the ballot. Shocker, Jones and Mays have been steadily building support. Berger has been a strong candidate that has a good shot in the next round of elections.

jjpm74
09-17-2009, 09:18 PM
Looks like these are the viable candidates. I'm happy that Long Charley is picking up support. All five of these guys are good candidates with Shocker probably the one who was the least thought of in his day.

I wouldn't count out John McGraw, either. He went from off the ballot to a strong write in to 6 votes this round. He may pick up a few more next round.

DoubleX
09-18-2009, 08:19 AM
Interesting results. Given that we convene only once every 5 years, I believe it's good to elect at least one player, though I personally still don'tuite see the case for Burleigh Grimes.

As for some of the almosts:

I'd be surprised if we don't eventually elect Berger. Going outside this project, he's been one of those "overlooked" players that's received a good amount of attention in general on this site.

On the flipside of that coin is Hack Wilson, who may be suffering somewhat here due to receiving too much credit in the real world. I had been voting for Berger and not Wilson in the regular elections, but after thinking it over here, I think Wilson's case is as good as Berger's - a little different, but justifiable.

I'm closeish on Shocker and could be swayed with a good argument next time.

I still don't get how Lazzeri is that different than Larry Doyle, who we elected in his second year of regular eligibility.

Jones is again picking up steam. He came close I believe in a couple of the early VC elections and had decent support in the regular election as well. He looks to be the last focal point of the 19th Century players.