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Cowtipper
10-09-2009, 10:49 AM
Frank Dwyer pitched from 1888 to 1899, going 176-152 with a 3.85 ERA in 365 games. He had 270 complete games and 12 shutouts over the course of his career. Furthermore, he won over 15 games nine times and over 20 games once. In 1893, he unofficially led the league in saves.

He wasn't too shabby as a hitter, batting .229 with five career home runs. Indeed, he was even used as an outfielder in 28 games, a shortstop four times, a second baseman twice and a first baseman once.

Statistically, he is similar to Guy Bush, Frank Killen, Paul Splittorff, Brickyard Kennedy, Red Donahue, Bill Sherdel, Bill Lee, Red Lucas, Bob Forsch, Pink Hawley.

What do you think about Frank Dwyer? Should he be in the Hall of Fame? Did he have Hall of Fame potential?

Captain Cold Nose
10-09-2009, 11:00 AM
Exactly what is his "qualifier" here to have the poll made about him? Winning 15 games a lot?

That is not a HOF'er.

EdTarbusz
10-09-2009, 11:45 AM
This is the first of your HOF polls in which I was completely unfamiliar with the player.

Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
10-09-2009, 11:48 AM
And so it continues... :hp

Captain Cold Nose
10-09-2009, 12:02 PM
And so it continues... :hp

And so you don't have to post in these threads.

dgarza
10-09-2009, 12:15 PM
This is the first of your HOF polls in which I was completely unfamiliar with the player.Same here, but...
Frank Dwyer's failure lies in not lasting long.
Dwyer DID have a nice start in some ways. Dwyer is one of the Top 30 or so pitchers in NL Wins through age 29.


Cnt Player W From To
+----+-----------------+---+----+----+
26 Charlie Getzien 145 1884 1892
27 Juan Marichal 144 1960 1967
28 Wilbur Cooper 142 1912 1921
29 Fernando Valenzue 141 1980 1990
30 Don Sutton 139 1966 1974
31 Sandy Koufax 138 1955 1965
32 Larry French 138 1929 1937
33 Clark Griffith 138 1893 1899
34 Frank Dwyer 138 1888 1897
35 Kid Gleason 138 1888 1895
36 Larry Dierker 137 1964 1976
37 Fergie Jenkins 135 1965 1972
38 Ed Reulbach 135 1905 1912
39 Ted Breitenstein 135 1892 1898
40 Jim Maloney 134 1960 1969
41 Pete Donohue 134 1921 1930
42 Steve Carlton 133 1965 1974


He's still a solid NO.

EdTarbusz
10-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Same here, but...
Frank Dwyer's failure lies in not lasting long.
Dwyer DID have a nice start in some ways. Dwyer is one of the Top 30 or so pitchers in NL Wins through age 29.


Cnt Player W From To
+----+-----------------+---+----+----+
26 Charlie Getzien 145 1884 1892
27 Juan Marichal 144 1960 1967
28 Wilbur Cooper 142 1912 1921
29 Fernando Valenzue 141 1980 1990
30 Don Sutton 139 1966 1974
31 Sandy Koufax 138 1955 1965
32 Larry French 138 1929 1937
33 Clark Griffith 138 1893 1899
34 Frank Dwyer 138 1888 1897
35 Kid Gleason 138 1888 1895
36 Larry Dierker 137 1964 1976
37 Fergie Jenkins 135 1965 1972
38 Ed Reulbach 135 1905 1912
39 Ted Breitenstein 135 1892 1898
40 Jim Maloney 134 1960 1969
41 Pete Donohue 134 1921 1930
42 Steve Carlton 133 1965 1974


He's still a solid NO.

When I didn't recognize him I guessed he was a 19th century player.

nerfan
10-09-2009, 02:49 PM
This is the first of your HOF polls in which I was completely unfamiliar with the player.

Wow. +1 to that.

And for the record - no.

Freakshow
10-10-2009, 07:26 PM
A good pitcher, but never anyone who belongs in a HOF discussion.

120+ wins 1891-98

Cnt Player ERA+ W L IP From To
+----+-----------------+----+---+---+------+----+----+
1 Kid Nichols 145 249 113 3218.1 1891 1898
2 Cy Young 141 232 128 3203.1 1891 1898
3 Amos Rusie 138 204 129 2974 1891 1898
4 Nig Cuppy 129 139 80 1914 1892 1898
5 Clark Griffith 127 130 78 1847.1 1891 1898
6 Sadie McMahon 119 123 94 1883 1891 1897
7 Jack Stivetts 117 164 100 2238.2 1891 1898
8 Frank Dwyer 117 153 127 2390 1891 1898
9 Pink Hawley 112 128 130 2250.2 1892 1898
10 Ted Breitenstein 111 137 148 2546.1 1891 1898
11 Frank Killen 110 154 121 2346 1891 1898
12 Bill Hutchison 107 124 120 2140 1891 1897
13 Jouett Meekin 102 141 114 2334 1891 1898
14 Brickyard Kennedy 100 132 122 2202.1 1892 1898
15 Gus Weyhing 96 127 121 2165.1 1891 1898

Cowtipper
02-07-2011, 12:42 AM
Task:

Rank the following players in terms of Hall of Fame worthiness.

Frank Killen
Brickyard Kennedy
Nig Cuppy
Ted Breitenstein
Jouett Meekin
Pink Hawley
Frank Dwyer

Freakshow
02-07-2011, 06:20 AM
Task:

Rank the following players in terms of Hall of Fame worthiness.

37.9 Ted Breitenstein
37.1 Frank Dwyer
36.3 Nig Cuppy
29.9 Pink Hawley
29.5 Brickyard Kennedy
27.8 Frank Killen
23.1 Jouett Meekin
Ordered by career WAR. Sadie McMahon fits right in there, too: 36.8. Jack Stivetts blows them all away: 53.0

Beady
02-07-2011, 09:32 AM
Frank Dwyer's failure lies in not lasting long.
Dwyer DID have a nice start in some ways. Dwyer is one of the Top 30 or so pitchers in NL Wins through age 29.


Rank the following players in terms of Hall of Fame worthiness.

Frank Killen
Brickyard Kennedy
Nig Cuppy
Ted Breitenstein
Jouett Meekin
Pink Hawley
Frank Dwyer

In the context of his times, Dwyer is not a brilliant shooting star, but a capable, reliable and durable pitcher with a fairly long career. He started early and pitched regularly for about ten years. You could name some of his contemporaries who lasted to a greater age, and not only those of the caliber of Cy Young, but there aren't that many of them. While Killen, Breitenstein, Hawley, Meekin and probably Stivetts all had bigger reputations when they were on top of their game, Killen and Hawley didn't last as long as Dwyer, Meekin never followed up his brilliant season in 1894 and Stivetts was a part-time pitcher by the time he reached 29.

Cuppy was pretty much done as a front liner at 27, and Sadie McMahon likewise. So was Red Ehret. and Harry Staley was on the downhill slope maybe a little earlier. Noodles Hahn's last season as a regular was at age 25 and Silver King didn't do much after age 24, though rules changes may have done for him as much as arm trouble. Even among the elite superstars of the era, Amos Rusie was not the same pitcher after he turned 24; trouble with club management had a lot to do with that, but he also hurt his arm.

I think moving the pitcher's position back to sixty-feet-six may perhaps have lessened the stress on pitchers somewhat by compelling managers to cut back on usage, but it was still an era when six or seven years was the natural life span for a pitcher, except for really phenomenal cases. A decade of regular work put Dwyer ahead of the game.

Cowtipper
02-07-2011, 12:01 PM
Thanks guys. The list I provided were the pitchers who won at least 135 games between 1892 and 1899 who are not in the Hall of Fame. Interestingly, Dwyer just barely meets the criteria with 135 wins in that span, yet he is the second-best player according to WAR.

KCGHOST
02-07-2011, 02:55 PM
I think we would have to let Sadie McMahon in before we allow Dwyer.

Beady
02-07-2011, 03:31 PM
Thanks guys. The list I provided were the pitchers who won at least 135 games between 1892 and 1899 who are not in the Hall of Fame. Interestingly, Dwyer just barely meets the criteria with 135 wins in that span, yet he is the second-best player according to WAR.

It surprised me to see him rank so high in WAR, but I guess it's because he was a steady, consistent performer. With the exception of Kennedy, every pitcher on your list had at least one season with more WAR than any of Dwyer's. Breitenstein had something like four.

I would not have thought of any of these pitchers as HOFers, but without stastical analysis I would have put all of them ahead of Dwyer except probably Meekin and maybe Kennedy -- not Kennedy, actually, but he was a very colorful character and I realize I may be influenced by his getting more attention than his talent and results deserve. This does make me take another look at Dwyer, although certainly not as a candidate for Cooperstown. Someone who could keep put up solid and reliable performances year after year was a valuable asset in a day when pitchers were liable to break down at any moment. I don't care how brilliant a pitcher your guy may be, once his arm goes bad he just represents a big salary and a quarter or a third of your staff that needs to be replaced somehow.