1963 Best of Baseball Election Thread

[jalbright]

This is our twenty-eighth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on January 15, 2010.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1962 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=95065)

[jalbright]

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

[jalbright]

The players who become eligible in 1963 are:



Doerr , Bobby
Feller , Bob
Grissom , Marv
Hoy , Dummy
Lopat , Ed
Reese , Pee Wee
Vernon , Mickey
Williams , Ted


There are two contributors joining the list in 1963:


Chandler , Happy
Grimm , Charlie

[jalbright]

The 1962 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:


players………….. votes points
Stovey , Harry 10 74
Beckwith, John 9 69
Coveleski , S 11 65
Gore , George 7 50
Carey , Max 7 49
Start , Joe 4 44
Gordon, Joe 8 40
Sutton , Ezra 7 38
Galvin , Pud 6 35
Grant , Frank 5 35
Terry , Bill 4 35
Hill , Pete……… 7 32
Bennett , C 4 29
Ferrell, Wes 3 26
Klein, Chuck 2 22
McGinnity , Joe 5 22
Thompson , S 2 22
Glasscock , J 3 21
Averill, Earl 5 19
Joss , Addie 3 19
Starffin, V 4 19
Caruthers , B 3 15
Duffy , Hugh 2 14
Maranville , R 2 12
Smith, Hilton 1 12
Faber , Red 1 11
Dean, Dizzy 2 10
Grimes , B 2 10
Roush , Edd 1 9
Brown, Willard 2 8
Dandridge, Ray 1 8
Berger , Wally 1 7
Jennings , H 1 7
Sewell , Joe 1 7
McCormick , J 1 6
Browning , Pete 1 5
Keller , C 1 5
Wallace , Bobby 1 4
Mendez , Jose 1 1
Richardson , H 1 1
Rizzuto , Phil 1 1
Welch , Mickey 1 1


The 1962 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:



contributor………… votes points
Wilkinson, JL 9 26
Griffith , C 9 24
Taylor , C. I. 5 18
Connolly , Tom 7 15
Pearce, Dickey 3 13
Chance , Frank 4 10
Weiss, George 4 10
Bolden, Ed 1 5
Caylor , O. P. 1 5
Frick, Ford 1 5
Shoriki, M 1 5
Southworth, B 1 4
Doubleday , A 1 2
Evans, Billy 1 2
Mutrie, Jim 1 2
Conlon , C 1 1


I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

[jalbright]

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players



Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Cool Papa Bell
Lou Boudreau
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Roger Connor
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Joe DiMaggio
Buck Ewing
Elmer Flick
Willie Foster
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Hank Greenberg
Heinie Groh
Lefty Grove
Stan Hack
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Billy Herman
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Joe Jackson
Grant "Home Run"Johnson
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
Willie Keeler
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Buck Leonard
Pop Lloyd
Ted Lyons
Biz Mackey
Sherry Magee
Christy Mathewson
Bid McPhee
Joe Medwick
Johnny Mize
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Mel Ott
Satchel Paige
Eddie Plank
Charlie Radbourn
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Enos Slaughter
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Pie Traynor
Dazzy Vance
Arky Vaughan
Rube Waddell
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Willie Wells
Zack Wheat
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young


Contributors



Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Commiskey
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Connie Mack
Larry MacPhail
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
Cum Posey
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Frank Selee
Al Spalding
Alfred Spink
J. G. T. Spink
Casey Stengel
Harry Wright

[jalbright]

The complete list of eligible players:



Adams , Babe
Adams , Sparky
Allen , Johnny
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Brecheen , Harry
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Brown , Willard
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Case , George
Cavaretta , Phil
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chapman , Sam
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Clarkson , Bus
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Mort
Cooper , Walker
Cooper , Wilbur
Coveleski , Stan
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Dandridge , Ray
Danning , Harry
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Day , Leon
Dean, Dizzy
Derringer , Paul
DiMaggio , Dom
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Doerr , Bobby
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Easter, Luke
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Bob
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Feller , Bob
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galan , Augie
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gordon , Joe
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Griffith , Clark
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Grissom , Marv
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Harder , Mel
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Henrich , Tommy
Herman , Babe
Herzog , Buck
Higgins , Mike
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Holmes , Tommy
Hooper , Harry
Hoy , Dummy
Hoy, Dummy
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Kawakami , Tetsuharu
Keller , Charlie
Kelley , Joe
Keltner , Ken
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kinder , Ellis
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Lee , Bill
Leever , Sam
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopat , Ed
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Maglie , Sal
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marion , Marty
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Frank
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moore , Terry
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mulcahy , Hugh
Mullane , Tony
Mungo , Van
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
Newsom , Bobo
Nicholson , Bill
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Buck
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Reese , Pee Wee
Remsen , Jack
Reynolds , Allie
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Rizzuto , Phil
Robertson , Dave
Roe , Preacher
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ryan , Jimmy
Sain , Johnny
Sauer , Hank
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Stanky , Eddie
Starffin , Victor
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Tobin , Jim
Toney , Fred
Trouppe , Quincy
Trout , Dizzy
Trucks , Virgil
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Vander Meer , Johnny
Veach , Bobby
Vernon , Mickey
Walberg , Rube
Walker , Harry
Wallace , Bobby
Walters , Bucky
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Warneke , Lon
Welch , Mickey
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williams , Ted
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Yerkes , Steve
York , Rudy
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief


The complete list of eligible contributors:



Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Cambria , Joe
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Chandler, Happy
Conlon , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Dykes , Jimmy
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Frick, Ford
Fullerton , Hugh
Giles , Warren
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Greenlee, Gus
Griffith , Clark
Grimm, Charlie
Haney , Fred
Harridge, Willie
Harris , Bucky
Hillerich , John
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
Luque , Dolf
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
O'Doul, Lefty
O'Neill, Steve
Osborn , Frank
Pasquel, Jorge
Pompez , Alex
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Southworth, Billy
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
Weiss, George
White , Sol
Wilkinson , J. L.
Wilson , Horace

[jalbright]

My ballot

Players
1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Pee Wee Reese
4. Harry Stovey
5. John Beckwith
6. Joe McGinnity
7. Victor Starffin
8. Bobby Doerr
9. Pud Galvin
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Joe Gordon
12. Pete Hill

Contributors
1. J. L. Wilkinson
2. C. I. Taylor
3. Clark Griffith
4. Tom Connolly
5. Frank Chance

Frank Chance joins my contributor ballot, as he was a heck of a player and a very successful manager. I can't quite go for him as a player, but he belongs based on his overall contribution.

On the player side, four newly eligible names come on: Ted Williams, Bob Feller, Pee Wee Reese and Bobby Doerr. I moved out the poorly supported Burleigh Grimes to make room for Doerr. Grimes will reappear soon, but will start at the bottom of the list again unless his support magically rises.

[jalbright]

Now we're a go for this ballot.

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Max Carey
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Sam Thompson
6. Edd Roush
7. Frank Grant
8. Harry Stovey
9. Pete Hill
10. Bobby Doerr
11. John Beckwith
12. Dizzy Dean

Contributors

1. Frank Chance
2. Tom Connolly
3. Billy Evans
4. J.L. Wilkinson
5. Clark Griffith

Happy New Year, one and all!

[PVNICK]

1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Bob Caruthers
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Bill Terry
6. Charlie Bennett
7. Jack Glasscock
8. Joe Gordon
9. Max Carey
10. Harry Stovey
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Bobby Doerr

1. O.P. Caylor
2. Clark Griffith
3. Connolly
4. Chance
5. Weiss

[Paul Wendt]

yes, Happy New Year to you!


Contributors

1. Frank Chance
2. Tom Connolly
3. Billy Evans
4. J.L. Wilkinson
5. Clark Griffith
Captain,

Do you rank Billy Evans third among umpires who have passed age 65, after Klem and Connolly? Will you sketch a case for him?

[Brad Harris]

Players
1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. John Beckwith
4. George Gore
5. Harry Stovey
6. Joe Start
7. Pud Galvin
8. Joe Gordon
9. Max Carey
10. Ezra Sutton
11. Joe McGinnity
12. Frank Grant

Contributors
1. J.L. Wilkinson
2. Dickey Pearce
3. George Weiss
4. C.I. Taylor
5. Frank Chance

[Domenic]

01. Ted Williams
02. Bob Feller
03. Pee Wee Reese
04. Harry Stovey
05. Joe Gordon
06. Wally Berger
07. Wes Ferrell
08. John Beckwith
09. Pete Hill
10. Bobby Doerr
11. Phil Rizzuto
12. Victor Starffin

01. C.I. Taylor
02. J.L. Wilkinson
03. Tom Connolly
04. Clark Griffith
05. Frank Chance

[Tiboreau]

1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Pete Hill
4. Pee Wee Reese
5. Wes Ferrell
6. Hughie Jennings
7. George Gore
8. Charlie Keller
9. Bobby Wallace
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Charlie Bennett
12. Jose Mendez

[AstrosFan]

1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Max Carey
4. Pee Wee Reese
5. John Beckwith
6. Harry Stovey
7. Earl Averill
8. Bill Terry
9. Stan Coveleski
10. Joe Gordon
11. Bobby Doerr
12. George Gore

1. C. I. Taylor
2. J. L. Wilkinson
3. Clark Griffith
4. George Weiss
5. Tom Connolly

[dgarza]

Players

1. Ted Williams
2. Sam Thompson
3. Bob Feller
4. Chuck Klein
5. Harry Stovey
6. Bill Terry
7. Hugh Duffy
8. Pud Galvin
9. Jim McCormick
10. Mickey Welch
11. Joe McGinnity
12. Pete Browning


Contributors

1. Ford Frick
2. George Weiss
3. Clark Griffith
4. Charles Conlon
5. Abner Doubleday

[Dogdaze]

Players:

1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Hilton Smith
4. Frank Grant
5. John Beckwith
6. Ezra Sutton
7. Harry Stovey
8. Pee Wee Reese
9. Victor Starffin
10. Addie Joss
11. George Gore
12. Stan Coveleski

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. J.L. Wilkinson
3. Clark Griffith
4. George Weiss
5. Tom Connolly

[Captain Cold Nose]

yes, Happy New Year to you!


Captain,

Do you rank Billy Evans third among umpires who have passed age 65, after Klem and Connolly? Will you sketch a case for him?

Attrition plays a large part in my ballots, which is why i have Evans ranked where he is. Now, I do feel his umpire work was exemplary, based on what i have read. I also give him a fair amount of credit for his work as an executive and a sportss writer as well, so you could say his entire body of work is getting the vote here, although his work behind the plate receives the lion's share.

As a former youth umpire, I have a lot of respect for the men in blue at that level.

[J W]

Slightly sad news; I've lost my queue, but hopefully temporarily. With such a strong crop of newcomers this season, there's no problem:

Players

1. Ted Williams
2. Bob Feller
3. Frank Grant
4. Stan Coveleski
5. Pee Wee Reese
6. Pete Hill
7. Joe Sewell
8. John Beckwith
9. Willard Brown
10. Joe McGinnity
11. Bobby Doerr
12. Addie Joss


Contributors

1. Ed Bolden
2. Billy Southworth
3. Clark Griffith
4. Jim Mutrie
5. Frank Chance

[jalbright]

We now have a quorum on the player side and are only one away from that status on the contributor side.

[jalbright]

Bumping this back on to the first page after a flood of new threads following the BBWAA vote.

As I write this, there are five folks who voted in the last election yet to vote in this one: Freakshow, jaxxr, jjpm74, leecemark, and Paul Wendt. By Monday, those in that group who haven't voted will receive reminder PMs. The deadline for voting is at 11:59:59 PM EST on January 15.

In the next election, we'll add several names to the contributor list:


Busch , Augie
Conlan , Jocko
Dyer , Eddie


On the player side, we'll add:


Cox , Billy
Edwards , Hank
Grove , Orval
Hutchinson , Fred
Irvin , Monte
Pesky , Johnny
Raschi , Vic
Reiser , Pete
Robinson , Jackie

Jackie should breeze in, and Irvin could challenge to make it in his first chance. The rest aren't likely to draw a lot of support.

[J W]

Bumping again...

I notice I've been the only one voting for Joe Sewell for a while. Am I over-valuing him because his career was on the shorter side? I think he compares quite favorably to the rest of the current "pack", especially as a shortstop.

[J W]

Also of note, I'm warming up to Harry Stovey although he may be elected without my help. Why isn't this guy in Cooperstown?

[jalbright]

Also of note, I'm warming up to Harry Stovey although he may be elected without my help. Why isn't this guy in Cooperstown?

Early on, the American Association got no respect, and while it may have been a bit weaker, I don't think it's enough to keep out Stovey. Later, the 19th century guys have suffered from being out of sight, out of mind. There are better 19th century guys not in Cooperstown (Deacon White, for one), and that doesn't help.


I notice I've been the only one voting for Joe Sewell for a while. Am I over-valuing him because his career was on the shorter side? I think he compares quite favorably to the rest of the current "pack", especially as a shortstop.

I think the shorter career plus the lack of any argument for wartime credit slows Sewell down a bit from Reese, and he's not the hitter Boudreau was (nor was he a player/manager):



Player..... career top 3 5consec black gray stds PA OPS+ mvp shares
Sewell..... 277 84 125 3 75 45 8329 108 1.08
Reese..... 314 85 134 7 102 39 9470 99 1.76
Boudreau. 277 96 135 11 82 34 7023 120 2.66


Sewell is someone I do expect I'll vote for at some point, but not right now.

[leecemark]

1) Williams
2) Feller
3) Beckwith
4) Gore
5) Carey
6) Galvin
7) Coveleski
8) Sutton
9) Gordon
10) Reese
11) Maranville
12) Stovey


Contributors
1) Pearce
2) Griffith
3) Chance
4) Wilkinson
5) Bolden

[jalbright]

We now have a quorum on both ballots.

[Paul Wendt]

Bumping again...

I notice I've been the only one voting for Joe Sewell for a while. Am I over-valuing him because his career was on the shorter side? I think he compares quite favorably to the rest of the current "pack", especially as a shortstop.
John,
Speaking for myself, the length of his shortstop career is part of it, but I'll list Hugh Jennings before him. I think you are overvaluing Joe Sewell a little even if he played all 13+ seasons at short rather than 8+ seasons.

You tend not to consider earlier infielders other than Grant. As you probably know, I feel Jack Glasscock is the best shortstop candidate on the board, in the same class as Boudreau and Reese. I favor Glasscock within that class but the point now is Glasscock ahead of everyone named here.

Only strong conviction in favor of the 1920s game supports Sewell over both Hugh Jennings and Bobby Wallace. The right mix of moderate favor to the 1920s and location on the peak/prime/career spectrum supports Sewell over one or the other, but not both, it seems to me.

I would consider Sewell later along with the five superior fielders Dick Lundy (his Negro League contemporary), Maranville and Bancroft (a few years older), Joe Tinker and Herman Long.

Dobie Moore from the US military and early Negro NL (also a few years older) is the other Hall of Merit shortstop from this time, 1890s-1930s, a heavy batter whose record is doubly difficult to assess.

The slugging Negro Leagues 3b-ss John Beckwith may be elected this year and I may cast him a singleton.

Frank White and Sol White both played some shortstop, by the way, and not only when they played together on the Philadelphia Giants, at the end of their playing careers. Remarkably, none of the primary 2b from the Negro Leagues and pre-Leagues 19-00s to 40s enjoys a greater reputation, as far as I know. They must also be in the mix with the group above. (I think the group may name Grant before any of these primary ss, and he's in my view along with Jennings and Wallace.)

If the famous fielders from Long to Maranville are all worth a mention now, why not Marty Marion? 1, he didn't play as long. 2, he was the weakest batter of all, in their primes, and weaker than all but Maranville for the latters very long career. (It appears that Marion hasn't been nominated, either.) Phil Rizzuto? He should be in the mix with the big group, all many years down the road for me.

Any others?
The Hall of Merit ranks pioneer ss Dickey Pearce ahead of everyone named here. He garnered some votes as a player last spring and I'm sure he'll be back someday.
3b-ss Ezra Sutton played ss out of necessity. Star c-ss Jack Rowe and 3b-ss Ed Williamson weren't very good at short (very bad according to a couple of sabrmetric measures).
SS-3b Johnny Pesky and Vern Stephens will be eligible soon. They must belong in that big mix, at least for any of us who favor bats and peaks.


blue - recently or imminently elected, practically passed from the agenda
brown - primary secondbasemen from early black baseball

P.S.
Bill James grades Sewell A- at shortstop. He played third in his decline, as Jennings moved to first, which favors them in career-at-shortstop comparison. Even so, that A- is higher than I would have guessed. James might not agree that the "five superior fielders" were superior to Sewell. I will need to look at modern measures of fielding, plural, and reread the Hall of Merit on Sewell, before I go past Jennings and Wallace.

[jaxxr]

1 Ted Williams
2 Addie Joss
3 Bill Terry
4 Bobby Feller
5 Chuck Klein
6 Dizzy Dean
7 Ray Dandridge
8 Stan Coveleski
9 Hugh Duffy
8 Lou Boudreau
10 Joe McGinnity
11 Pud Galvin
12 Bob Caruthers

This ballot includes the first year of eligibility for an easy choice for a HOF hurler, Bobby Feller.

It might be of interest to note,
Addie Joss has more actual shutouts, and a better percentage of zero run games per start, than Feller.
Via K/BB ratio, both career and seasonal peak, Joss tops Feller.
Additionally, ERA, WHIP, and Adjusted ERA +, shows Joss, both career-wise and single season, ahead of Feller.

[jalbright]

PM sent to voter over Boudreau. Right now, the ballot counts without Boudreau, and the ones after Boudreau starting at #10.

[jalbright]

This ballot includes the first year of eligibility for an easy choice for a HOF hurler, Bobby Feller.

It might be of interest to note,
Addie Joss has more actual shutouts, and a better percentage of zero run games per start, than Feller.
Via K/BB ratio, both career and seasonal peak, Joss tops Feller.
Additionally, ERA, WHIP, and Adjusted ERA +, shows Joss, both career-wise and single season, ahead of Feller.

There are also the following points of comparison:


…………..... Feller Joss
IP………..... 3827 2327
wins…….... 266 160
k………..... 2581 920
black ink.. 98 19
gray…ink . 232 146
career WS.. 292 191
top 3……... 98 88
5 consec.. 151 131


Feller dominates in the win share categories (the last three) despite pitching in an era when pitchers were not used for as many innings. Feller was far more dominant that Joss. Seems there are some reasons Feller is dominating Joss in the voting.

[jaxxr]

Seems there are some reasons Feller is dominating Joss in the voting.

Regardless of anyone's reasons or personal opinions, for voting as they deem proper,
The FACTS remain,, Joss did best Feller in quite a few areas, certainly not every single stat possible, and no matter how vigoriously one wishes to discredit Joss.......He still remains the best pitcher ever, via career WHIP, and the second best via career ERA.

Bob Feller, obviously a fine HOF hurler, was/is one of the best self promoters ever in MLB, he is one of the pioneers in charging for autographs, and attending many popular card/memorabilia shows.

And it is likely a still living ballplayer, with a much more recent career, is easier to remember, than one from a long gone era, who died at the age of 31.

[dgarza]

1st 9 seasons


…………..... Feller Joss
IP………..... 2190.3 2327
wins…….... 158 160
%………..... .656 .623
k………..... 1836 920
ERA+…….... 137 142
black ink.. 86 19
gray…ink . 155 146
HOF Mon.. 136.5 89
HOF Stand. 40 47
WARP3. 54.2 49.1
top 3........ 29.5 21.5
5 consec.... 39.2 32.0
career WS.. ? 191
top 3……... ? 88
5 consec.. ? 131

Can someone fill in the WS?

[Freakshow]

1 Ted Williams
2 Bob Feller
3 Joe Start
4 Pee Wee Reese
5 Red Faber
6 Wes Ferrell
7 George Gore
8 Joe Gordon
9 Ezra Sutton
10 Frank Grant
11 Jack Glasscock
12 Bobby Doerr

[jalbright]

Bump. Just over 55 hours left in this election as I post this.

[Paul Wendt]

I have been a laggard on Barrow and Huggins so it's appropriate that I put the name of Jake Ruppert into circulation. Beside discussion in this forum the 2008/2009 celebration of the Yankee Stadium story has been influential for me, as I have come to consider it the House That Ruppe Built.

1 JL Wilkinson
2 Clark Griffith
3 George Weiss
4 Tom Connolly
5 Jacob Ruppert

[Paul Wendt]

Players
1 Ted Williams
2 Bob Feller
3 George Gore
4 Joe Start
5 Jack Glasscock
6 Ezra Sutton
7 Charlie Bennett
8 Max Carey
9 Stan Coveleski
10 Pete Hill
11 Joe Gordon
12 Pee Wee Reese

[jalbright]

This election is now concluded. We had 14 player ballots and 11 contributor ballots. On the player side, we have inducted Ted Williams, Bob Feller, and Pee Wee Reese. The final results in that election are:


Player……….. votes pts
Williams, Ted 14 168
Feller, Bob 14 151
Reese, PW 9 64
Beckwith, John 8 56
Stovey , Harry 9 56
Coveleski , S 10 53
Gore , George 7 43
Carey , Max 6 41
Gordon, Joe 8 34
Terry , Bill 4 30
Grant , Frank 5 29
Hill , Pete…… 6 29
Sutton , Ezra 6 28
Start , Joe 3 26
Galvin , Pud 5 24
Ferrell, Wes 3 21
Thompson , S 2 19
Doerr, Bobby 7 17
Klein, Chuck 2 17
McGinnity , J 5 17
Glasscock , J 3 16
Bennett , C 3 15
Joss , Addie 3 15
Caruthers , B 2 11
Starffin, V 3 11
Duffy , Hugh 2 10
Smith, Hilton 1 10
Dean, Dizzy 2 8
Faber , Red 1 8
Berger , Wally 1 7
Jennings , H 1 7
Roush , Edd 1 7
Averill, Earl 1 6
Dandridge, Ray 1 6
Sewell , Joe 1 6
Keller , C 1 5
Brown, Willard 1 4
McCormick , J 1 4
Wallace , Bobby 1 4
Welch , Mickey 1 3
Maranville , R 1 2
Rizzuto , Phil 1 2
Browning , Pete 1 1
Mendez , Jose 1 1


On the contributor side, we inducted J. L. Wilkinson. The final results in that election are:


Contributor……. votes pts
Wilkinson, JL 8 31
Griffith , C 10 30
Taylor , C. I. 5 21
Connolly , Tom 7 16
Weiss, George 6 15
Chance , Frank 7 14
Pearce, Dickey 2 9
Bolden, Ed 2 6
Caylor , O. P. 1 5
Frick, Ford 1 5
Southworth, B 1 4
Evans, Billy 1 3
Conlon , C 1 2
Mutrie, Jim 1 2
Doubleday , A 1 1
Ruppert , Jacob 1 1

[J W]

A fine class; perhaps the best since the early days of the project. :nod:

[jalbright]

A fine class; perhaps the best since the early days of the project. :nod:

True. There will be a few more strong classes, though.

1967: Spahn, Campanella and Newhouser are in that class.
1976: Mantle, Mays, Mathews, Banks and Bunning are in that class.
1980: F. Robinson, Gibson and Koufax are in that class.
1985: Oh, Santo, Stargell and Isao Harimoto are in that class.
1994: Schmidt, Ryan, Fisk, Simmons and Grich are in that class.
1996: Winfield, Blyleven and Gossage are in that class.
2004: R. Henderson, Raines and Sandberg are in that class

Some other classes might be strong if Japanese players or controversial guys (Pete Rose) draw enough support. That's not a sure thing, though. That 1976 class is awesome.

[jalbright]

Going backward, in 1954, we had Ott, Arky Vaughn and Satchel Paige. I'd say that class stacks up well. 1952 had Dickey, Foxx and Appling. 1948 had Cochrane, Gehringer and Hubbell. 1946 and before we had the backlog plus Negro Leaguers to keep the classes strong.