1965 Best of Baseball election thread [Archive]

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jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:38 AM

This is our thirtieth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 12, 2010.

The prior election, and the ballots of the 1964 voters, are in this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=95651)

jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:39 AM

Rules

1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread

jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:42 AM

The players who become eligible in 1965 are:

Gromek , Steve
Gustine , Frank
Hegan , Jim
Lemon , Bob
Musial , Stan
Northey , Ron
Sisti , Sibby
Stephens , Vern
Wynn , Early

There are two contributors joining the list in 1965:

Hubbard , Cal
Manley , Effa

jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:44 AM

The 1964 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

players………….. votes points
Beckwith, J 8 62
Stovey , Harry 9 62
Gore , George 7 49
Carey , Max 7 42
Gordon, Joe 8 37
Hill , Pete………. 8 36
Terry , Bill 4 34
Grant , Frank 5 33
Sutton , Ezra 6 28
Start , Joe 3 27
Bennett , C 4 26
Doerr, Bobby 7 23
Ferrell, Wes 3 23
Thompson , S 2 21
Galvin , Pud 5 20
Klein, Chuck 2 20
Joss , Addie 3 18
Glasscock , J 3 17
McGinnity , J 4 16
Caruthers , B 4 15
Starffin, V 3 14
Duffy , Hugh 2 12
Dean, Dizzy 2 10
Smith, Hilton 1 10
Faber , Red 1 9
Berger , Wally 1 8
Jennings , H 1 8
Roush , Edd 1 8
Sewell , Joe 1 8
Averill, Earl 1 7
Dandridge, Ray 1 7
Brown, Willard 1 6
Keller , C 1 6
Browning , Pete 1 5
Wallace , Bobby 1 5
McCormick , J 1 4
Rizzuto , Phil 1 3
Maranville , R 1 2
Mendez , Jose 1 2
Welch , Mickey 1 2
Grimes , B 1 1
Oms, Alejandro 1 1
Richardson , H 1 1

The 1964 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

contributor………… votes points
Taylor , C. I. 6 26
Weiss, George 9 22
Connolly , Tom 7 21
Chance , Frank 9 18
Pearce, Dickey 2 8
Bolden, Ed 2 7
Caylor , O. P. 1 5
Frick, Ford 1 5
Ruppert , J 2 4
Southworth, B 1 4
Conlon , C 2 3
Evans, Billy 1 3
Mutrie, Jim 1 2
Doubleday , A 1 1

I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.

jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:49 AM

Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

Players

Pete Alexander
Cap Anson
Luke Appling
Frank Baker
Ross Barnes
Cool Papa Bell
Lou Boudreau
Dan Brouthers
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Jesse Burkett
Oscar Charleston
Fred Clarke
John Clarkson
Ty Cobb
Mickey Cochrane
Eddie Collins
Jimmy Collins
Roger Connor
Stan Coveleski
Sam Crawford
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Ed Delahanty
Bill Dickey
Martin Dihigo
Joe DiMaggio
Buck Ewing
Bob Feller
Elmer Flick
Willie Foster
Jimmie Foxx
Frankie Frisch
Lou Gehrig
Charlie Gehringer
Josh Gibson
Goose Goslin
Hank Greenberg
Heinie Groh
Lefty Grove
Stan Hack
Billy Hamilton
Gabby Hartnett
Harry Heilmann
Billy Herman
Paul Hines
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Hubbell
Monte Irvin
Joe Jackson
Grant "Home Run"Johnson
Walter Johnson
Tim Keefe
Willie Keeler
King Kelly
Nap LaJoie
Buck Leonard
Pop Lloyd
Ted Lyons
Biz Mackey
Sherry Magee
Christy Mathewson
Bid McPhee
Joe Medwick
Johnny Mize
Kid Nichols
Jim O'Rourke
Mel Ott
Satchel Paige
Eddie Plank
Charlie Radbourn
Pee Wee Reese
Jackie Robinson
Bullet Joe Rogan
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Louis Santop
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Enos Slaughter
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Cristobal Torriente
Pie Traynor
Dazzy Vance
Arky Vaughan
Rube Waddell
Honus Wagner
Ed Walsh
Paul Waner
John M. Ward
Willie Wells
Zack Wheat
Deacon White
Smoky Joe Williams
Ted Williams
Jud Wilson
George Wright
Cy Young

Contributors

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Charlie Commiskey
Jim Creighton
Rube Foster
Clark Griffith
Ned Hanlon
William Hulbert
Miller Huggins
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw Landis
Connie Mack
Larry MacPhail
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
Cum Posey
A. J. Reach
Francis Richter
Branch Rickey
Frank Selee
Al Spalding
Alfred Spink
J. G. T. Spink
Casey Stengel
J. L. Wilkinson
Harry Wright

jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:53 AM

The complete list of eligible players:

Adams , Sparky
Allen , Johnny
Altrock , Nick
Archer , Jimmy
Arlett , Buzz
Austin , Jimmy
Averill , Earl
Bancroft , Dave
Barry , Jack
Bartell , Dick
Battin , Joe
Beaumont , Ginger
Beckley , Jake
Beckwith , John
Bender , Chief
Bennett , Charlie
Benton , Larry
Berg , Moe
Bergen , Marty
Berger , Wally
Berry , Charlie
Bigbee , Carson
Bishop , Max
Blades , Ray
Blue , Lu
Bluege , Ossie
Bodie , Ping
Boley , Joe
Bond , Tommy
Bottomley , Jim
Bradley , Bill
Brecheen , Harry
Breitenstein , Ted
Bresnahan , Roger
Bridges , Tommy
Brown , Willard
Browning , Pete
Burns , George J.
Bush , Joe
Bush , Donie
Bush , Guy
Cadore , Leon
Camilli , Dolph
Camnitz , Howie
Carey , Max
Carrigan , Bill
Caruthers , Bob
Case , George
Cavaretta , Phil
Cepeda , Perucho
Chance , Frank
Chandler , Spud
Chapman , Ben
Chapman , Ray
Chapman , Sam
Chase , Hal
Chesbro , Jack
Childs , Cupid
Cicotte , Eddie
Cissell , Bill
Clark , Watty
Clarkson , Bus
Coakley , Andy
Collins , Shano
Combs , Earle
Conroy , Wid
Coombs , Jack
Cooper , Andy
Cooper , Mort
Cooper , Walker
Cooper , Wilbur
Cox , Billy
Crandall , Doc
Cravath , Gavvy
Creighton , Jim
Criger , Lou
Critz , Hughie
Cross , Lave
Crowder , Al
Cruise , Walt
Cuccinello , Tony
Cummings , Candy
Cuyler , Kiki
Dandridge , Ray
Danning , Harry
Daubert , Jake
Davis , Curt
Davis , Harry
Davis , Spud
Day , Leon
Dean, Dizzy
Derringer , Paul
DiMaggio , Dom
Dinneen , Bill
Doak , Bill
Doerr , Bobby
Donlin , Mike
Donovan , Bill
Dooin , Red
Doyle , Jack
Doyle , Larry
Duffy , Hugh
Dugan , Joe
Dunlap , Fred
Dykes , Jimmy
Earnshaw , George
Easter, Luke
Edwards , Hank
Ehmke , Howard
Elberfeld , Kid
Elliott , Bob
Elliott , Jumbo
Ens , Jewel
Evers , Johnny
Faber , Red
Falkenberg , Cy
Ferrell , Rick
Ferrell , Wes
Fitzsimmons , Freddie
Fletcher , Art
Fonseca , Lew
Foster , Eddie
Fraser , Chick
Galan , Augie
Galvin , Pud
Gelbert , Charlie
Glasscock , Jack
Gleason , Kid
Gomez , Lefty
Gonzalez , Mike
Gordon , Joe
Gore , George
Gowdy , Hank
Grant , Eddie
Grant , Frank
Grantham , George
Grimes , Burleigh
Grimm , Charlie
Grissom , Marv
Gromek , Steve
Grove , Orval
Gustine , Frank
Haas , Mule
Hafey , Chick
Hahn , Noodles
Haines , Jesse
Hallahan , Bill
Harder , Mel
Hargrave , Bubbles
Harris , Bucky
Harris , Vic
Hegan , Jim
Henrich , Tommy
Herman , Babe
Herzog , Buck
Higgins , Mike
Hill , Pete
Hinchman , Bill
Holmes , Tommy
Hooper , Harry
Hoy , Dummy
Hoy, Dummy
Hoyt , Waite
Huggins , Miller
Hutchinson , Fred
Irwin , Charlie
Jackman , Will
Jennings , Hughie
Johnson , Bob
Johnson , Judy
Jones , Charley
Jones , Fielder
Jones , Sam P.
Jordan , Tim
Joss , Addie
Judge , Joe
Jurges , Billy
Kamm , Willie
Kawakami , Tetsuharu
Keller , Charlie
Kelley , Joe
Keltner , Ken
Kerr , Dickie
Killefer , Bill
Kilroy , Matt
Kinder , Ellis
Klein , Chuck
Kling , Johnny
Knabe , Otto
Kremer , Ray
Kress , Red
Kuhel , Joe
Lange , Bill
Larkin , Henry
Latham , Arlie
Lavagetto , Cookie
Lazzeri , Tony
Leach , Freddy
Leach , Tommy
Lee , Bill
Leever , Sam
Lemon , Bob
Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
Lewis , Duffy
Lindstrom , Freddie
Lobert , Hans
Lombardi , Ernie
Long , Herman
Lopat , Ed
Lopez , Al
Lowe , Bobby
Lucas , Red
Lundy , Dick
Luque , Dolf
Lyons , Denny
Maglie , Sal
Mancuso , Gus
Manush , Heinie
Maranville , Rabbit
Marberry , Firpo
Marion , Marty
Marquard , Rube
Martin , Pepper
Mathews , Bobby
Mays , Carl
McAleer , Jimmy
McCarthy , Tommy
McCormick , Frank
McCormick , Jim
McGinnity , Joe
McGowan , Bill
McInnis , Stuffy
McLean , Larry
McManus , Marty
McVey , Cal
Meadows , Lee
Mendez , Jose
Meusel , Bob
Milan , Clyde
Miller , Bing
Miller , Dots
Miller , Hack
Monroe , Bill
Moore , Dobie
Moore , Jo-Jo
Moore , Terry
Moran , Pat
Mostil , Johnny
Mulcahy , Hugh
Mullane , Tony
Mungo , Van
Murphy , Danny
Murray , Red
Musial , Stan
Myer , Buddy
Nehf , Art
Newsom , Bobo
Nicholson , Bill
Northey , Ron
O'Doul , Lefty
Oeschger , Joe
O'Farrell , Bob
O'Leary , Charlie
Oms , Alejandro
O'Neill , Buck
O'Neill , Steve
O'Neill , Tip
Orr , Dave
Pabor , Charlie
Paskert , Dode
Pearce , Dickey
Pearson , Monte
Peckinpaugh , Roger
Peitz , Heinie
Pennock , Herb
Perdue , Hub
Perkins , Cy
Pesky , Johnny
Phillippe , Deacon
Pike , Lip
Pipp , Wally
Poles , Spotswood
Pruett , Hub
Quinn , Jack
Raschi , Vic
Raymond , Bugs
Redding , Dick
Reiser , Pete
Remsen , Jack
Reynolds , Allie
Rice , Sam
Richardson , Hardy
Ring , Jimmy
Ritchey , Claude
Rixey , Eppa
Rizzuto , Phil
Robertson , Dave
Roe , Preacher
Rolfe , Red
Rommel , Eddie
Root , Charlie
Roush , Edd
Rucker , Nap
Rudolph , Dick
Ruel , Muddy
Ryan , Jimmy
Sain , Johnny
Sauer , Hank
Schacht , Al
Schaefer , Germany
Schalk , Ray
Schang , Wally
Schreckengost , Ossie
Schulte , Frank
Scott , Everett
Scott , Jack
Selkirk , George
Severeid , Hank
Sewell , Joe
Sewell , Luke
Sewell , Rip
Seymour , Cy
Sheckard , Jimmy
Sherdel , Bill
Shocker , Urban
Sisti , Sibby
Smith , Earl
Smith , Hilton
Smith , Sherry
Sparks , Tully
Stahl , Jake
Stanky , Eddie
Starffin , Victor
Start , Joe
Steinfeldt , Harry
Stephens , Vern
Stephenson , Riggs
Stovey , Harry
Street , Gabby
Suhr , Gus
Sukeforth , Clyde
Sutton , Ezra
Sweeney , Bill
Tannehill , Jesse
Taylor , Ben
Tebbetts , Birdie
Tenney , Fred
Terry , Bill
Thevenow , Tommy
Thomas , Ira
Thompson , Sam
Tiernan , Mike
Tinker , Joe
Tobin , Jim
Toney , Fred
Trouppe , Quincy
Trout , Dizzy
Trucks , Virgil
Turner , Terry
Uhle , George
Van Haltren , George
Vander Meer , Johnny
Veach , Bobby
Vernon , Mickey
Walberg , Rube
Walker , Harry
Wallace , Bobby
Walters , Bucky
Wambsganss , Bill
Waner , Lloyd
Warfield , Frank
Warneke , Lon
Welch , Mickey
Werber , Billy
West , Sam
White , Sol
White , Will
Whitehill , Earl
Williams , Cy
Williams , Ken
Williamson , Ned
Willis , Vic
Wilson , Hack
Wilson , Jimmie
Witt , Whitey
Wood , Joe
Wright , Glenn
Wyatt , Whit
Wynn , Early
Yerkes , Steve
York , Rudy
Young , Pep
Youngs , Ross
Zachary , Tom
Zimmer , Chief

The complete list of eligible contributors:

Abe , Iso
Bancroft , Frank
Bolden, Ed
Bulkely , Morgan
Busch , Augie
Cambria , Joe
Carrigan, Bill
Caylor , O. P.
Chance , Frank
Chandler, Happy
Conlan , Jocko
Conlon , Charles
Connolly , Tom
Cooper , Andy
Cummings , Candy
Dinneen , Bill
Doubleday , Abner
Dreyfuss , Barney
Dunn , Jack
Dyer , Eddie
Dykes , Jimmy
Elias , Al Munro
Evans, Billy
Foster , John B.
Frick, Ford
Fullerton , Hugh
Giles , Warren
Gleason , Kid
Gonzalez , Mike
Greenlee, Gus
Grimm, Charlie
Haney , Fred
Harridge, Willie
Harris , Bucky
Hillerich , John
Hubbard , Cal
Jennings , Hughie
Krichell, Paul
Lardner , Ring
Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
Luque , Dolf
Manley , Effa
McCarthy , Tommy
McKechnie, Bill
Mendez , Jose
Mills , A. G.
Moran , Pat
Mutrie , Jim
Navin , Frank
Norworth, Jack
O'Doul, Lefty
O'Neill, Steve
Osborn , Frank
Pasquel, Jorge
Pompez , Alex
Rice, Grantland
Robinson , Wilbert
Ruppert , Jacob
Shibe , Ben
Shoriki, Matsutaro
Southworth, Billy
Stallings , George
Street, Gabby
Taylor , C. I.
Thayer , Ernest
Tyson, Ty
Warfield , Frank
Weiss, George
White , Sol
Wilson , Horace

jalbright

01-30-2010, 04:56 AM

My ballot

Players
1. Stan Musial
2. Harry Stovey
3. John Beckwith
4. Early Wynn
5. Joe McGinnity
6. Victor Starffin
7. Bobby Doerr
8. Pud Galvin
9. Joe Gordon
10. Pete Hill
11. Burleigh Grimes
12. George Gore

Contributors
1. C. I. Taylor
2. Tom Connolly
3. Frank Chance
4. George Weiss
5. Dickey Pearce

Dickey Pearce joins my contributor ballot. On the player side, two newly eligible names join: Stan Musial and Early Wynn. George Gore completes my ballot.

leecemark

01-30-2010, 06:15 AM

1) Musial
2) Bennett
3) Beckwith
4) Gore
5) Carey
6) Galvin
7) Sutton
8) Gordon
9) Maranville
10) Stovey
11) Lemon
12) Wynn

--Backlog leaders; Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jack Glasscock, Joe Sewell, Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean and Wes Ferrell. These are not in any particular order, but one of them will join my ballot next time we lack enough newcomers to fill it. Interested in any info their supporters may have to get one of them to the top of the class.

Contributors
1) Pearce
2) Chance
3) Bolden
4) Weiss
5) Evans

jaxxr

01-30-2010, 07:18 AM

jalbright

01-30-2010, 08:24 AM

Monte Irvin was voted into this HOF, and seems a very qualified inductee.
I also included him on my ballot.

Monte had 8 MLB seasons, and one time led the league in a hitting stat, RBI.
None of his career marks are outstanding, due partly to a short time, and due partly to no prime years.
Obviously the voters herein had to adjust his actual MLB stats, and extrapolate, expand, or estimate how he would have performed, and that seems a reasonable approach.

For whatever frame of references one has, or whatever estimation process one uses, it would seem proper the same estimation would be acceptable for a player with much better single season peaks and some truly great career marks, who had also a short MLB career, cut short by a death at the prime age of 31.

Some can see Monte Irvin, based on slightly above average MLB stats, being projected a HOFer because of unusual circumstances,
However, some can not project the all time WHIP leader, the second best career ERA, and several league leading performances, into this HOF.

Perhaps I place too much significance on having the very best ever, and several other very high positions in some pitching career official MLB stats, and am unfair to feel it might be hypocritical, to overlook those, and to project and estimate unrecorded, spotty, anecdotal, non MLB performance into the HOF.

There's some very big differences: Irvin was playing those other years, and prevented from doing so in the majors due solely to his skin color. Personally, I find it offensive to bar somebody on that basis, and giving him his due is what makes an attempt to evaluate what he did in those years he was excluded necessary IMHO.

Joss suffered a terrible fate, but many people fall ill or are injured, especially pitchers. My approach is to not give any extra credit for what could have happened but for injury, because there's way too many guys for whom that argument could be made. Chino Smith or Dobie Moore get no credit in my book for their lives after their careers effectively ended. They either rise or fall on what they did during their playing careers. Dickie Thon could have been a great one had he not been beaned. He might not have been. Ray Chapman either makes it on what he did before his fatal beaning or not at all. So, too, does Joss. As I indicated before, I view Joss as no better than Jack Chesbro among his peers when one considers some other statistical approaches than you do, jaxxr. I'm not voting in Chesbro, and I won't be voting for Joss. If others join you and elect him, I'll disagree, but I'll continue.

jaxxr

01-30-2010, 08:59 AM

Jim, you are certainly entitled to your opinions,
I do respect you views, but have difficulty understanding "what if" estimates appropriateness in only certain cases.

" Personally, I find it offensive to bar somebody on that basis, and giving him his due is what makes an attempt to evaluate what he did in those years he was excluded necessary IMHO."

I do not disagree with those concepts, and do not find it offensive, but perhaps unfortunate, that we can exclude THE all time WHIP leader, the second best ERA ever, who had several actual MLB league leading seasons as well,
and to somehow equate his dying at the age of 31, as very similar to a long injury and /or segregation shortcomings...

I suppose, if we all valued or interpreted events exactly the same, this would be quite a boring exercise.

jalbright

01-30-2010, 09:45 AM

There's no right or wrong answers in how to deal with injuries/deaths.

The problem I have with injury "what ifs" are: 1) there's way too many of them, and 2) very often, like the beanings, they have to do with the way the player plays (crowding the plate, etc.). It's too much to sort out. When it comes to the color line, I'm trying to make sense of what did happen. The numbers aren't translatable one to one--but Irvin did play, and was a dominant force in the leagues in which he played. This may not satisfy you or some others, but it's how I choose to draw the line. Similarly, I will give my best estimates of what the meaning of what Japanese players did in Japan in MLB terms simply to put those players in context.

Like you say, if we all had the same perspective, there wouldn't be much point to having projects like this. Joss has things to point to, and you and others have every right to point to them and try to persuade others that those things outweigh the issues I have with his candidacy. Truth is, even with the issues I do have about him, Joss is someone who I regard as well worthy of discussion.

Domenic

01-30-2010, 10:34 AM

01. Stan Musial
02. Harry Stovey
03. Joe Gordon
04. Wally Berger
05. Wes Ferrell
06. John Beckwith
07. Pete Hill
08. Charlie Bennett
09. Bobby Doerr
10. Phil Rizzuto
11. Victor Starffin
12. Joe McGinnity

01. C.I. Taylor
02. Tom Connolly
03. Dickey Pearce
04. Frank Chance
05. George Weiss

Paul Wendt

01-30-2010, 12:07 PM

Congratulations to Clark Griffith, a good candidate player inevitably recognized first for his entire baseball career.

This year I take the path of least resistance and nod to those who election is imminent. C.I. Taylor, John Beckwith, and Harry Stovey fill the openings at the ends of my ballots.

1 George Weiss
2 Tom Connolly
3 Jake Ruppert
4 Charles Conlon
5 C.I.Taylor

Briefly I was Joe Gordon's best friend and I am Hardy Richardson's best friend of course. Probably they are now fixtures on my ballot. Richardson, Gordon, Bobby Doerr, and Frank Grant are numbers 16-17-18-19 in the Hall of Merit ranking of secondbasemen (with Roberto Alomar unranked). It's remarkable that all four are eligible here together.

1 Stan Musial
2 George Gore
3 Joe Start
4 Jack Glasscock
5 Ezra Sutton
6 Charlie Bennett
7 Max Carey
8 Pete Hill
9 Joe Gordon
10 Hardy Richardson
11 John Beckwith
12 Harry Stovey

A strong balanced team from the 1880s is still on the board and the imminent election of Harry Stovey will not undo it. Take a look.

(Harry Stovey) George Gore Sam Thompson
Charley Jones Pete Browning

Jack Glasscock Hardy Richardson

Ezra Sutton (Harry Stovey)
Joe Start
Bob Caruthers
Mickey Welch
Jim McCormick
Jim Galvin

Charlie Bennett

Frank Grant is occasionally available by loan from the 1890s, too.

Jones, Sutton, and Start are also members of the 1870s team which no longer takes the field.

leecemark

01-30-2010, 12:24 PM

jalbright

01-30-2010, 12:44 PM

Being even arguably the fourth best first baseman of a decade which began when Start had already passed his 37th birthday is significant evidence of a top talent. I'm not sure how to make sense of all of Start's career, which is why I haven't pushed his cause as yet. That said, I expect to support his case at some point.

Dogdaze

01-30-2010, 01:11 PM

Recently I re-evaluated some Negro league and other players which will result in a change in my ranking.

Players:

1. Stan Musial
2. John Beckwith
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Harry Stovey
5. Early Wynn
6. George Gore
7. Victor Starffin
8. Joe Gordon
9. Frank Grant
10. Addie Joss
11. Max Carey
12. Hilton Smith

Contributors:

1. C. I. Taylor
2. George Weiss
3. Tom Connolly
4. Frank Chance
5. Dickey Pearce

dgarza

01-30-2010, 01:13 PM

Players

1. Stan Musial
2. Sam Thompson
3. Chuck Klein
4. Harry Stovey
5. Bill Terry
6. Hugh Duffy
7. Pud Galvin
8. Pete Browning
9. Jim McCormick
10. Bob Caruthers
11. Mickey Welch
12. Early Wynn

In the wings, Joe McGinnity, Earl Averill, Tony Mullane, Bob Johnson. John Beckwith, I don't know. Is he like Traynor? If so, well, I'm not in Traynor-territory yet.

Contributors

1. Ford Frick
2. Cal Hubbard
3. George Weiss
4. C.I. Taylor
5. Charles Conlon

dgarza

01-30-2010, 01:48 PM

--Joe Start was at best the 4th best 1B of the 1880s. Being the 4th best at a position from that early era is not a strong case for me. Of course, Start was - by baseball standards - an old man in the 1880s. His real claim is that he was (probably, records are not exactly clear here) the best 1B of the 1860s:gt. It is his extreme longevity that makes him a viable, if less than compelling, candidate IMO.

Being even arguably the fourth best first baseman of a decade which began when Start had already passed his 37th birthday is significant evidence of a top talent. I'm not sure how to make sense of all of Start's career, which is why I haven't pushed his cause as yet. That said, I expect to support his case at some point.
Start's career is hard to judge, as it is divided into 3 distinct parts.

His 1860s were most likely and expected his best years, but the 1860s are hard to judge.

His 1870s were yo-yo years. He would go from good to below average often.
Depending on how you view Cal McVey, Start may have been the best 1B of the 1870s, but his competition was entirely weak
150 games at 1B

Rk Player OPS+ G From To
1 Cal McVey 152 530 1871 1879
2 Joe Start 121 516 1871 1879
3 Everett Mills 100 337 1871 1876
4 Charlie Gould 92 221 1871 1877
5 Tim Murnane 91 308 1872 1878
6 Herman Dehlman 61 307 1872 1877

Like the 1870s, his 1880s were good, but not great. I'd say he's clearly out of the Top 5 1B for that decade. He did not play much as was merely an OK defensive player.
500 games at 1B

Rk Player OPS+ G From To
1 Dan Brouthers 183 941 1880 1889
2 Roger Connor 166 1083 1880 1889
3 Dave Orr 165 684 1883 1889
4 Cap Anson 159 1089 1880 1889
5 Harry Stovey 151 1066 1880 1889
6 John Reilly 136 874 1880 1889
7 Joe Start 120 555 1880 1886
8 John Morrill 115 992 1880 1889
9 Bill Phillips 109 957 1880 1888
10 Charlie Comiskey 95 895 1882 1889
11 Sid Farrar 92 816 1883 1889

Start is not quite HOF material in my book; very good, but not HOF great.
I'd judge his entire career to be more akin to Mickey Vernon, Dolph Camilli, Gil Hodges, Andres Galarraga, Norm Cash, Jack Fournier, or Jack Clark.
If I wanted to really stretch it, I could have my arm twisted to say Tony Perez, Carlos Delgado, Steve Garvey, or Jim Bottomley, but I'm not really ready to go that far yet.

Paul Wendt

01-30-2010, 02:27 PM

Freakshow

01-30-2010, 05:02 PM

Start has been a fixture on my ballot since 1941; mine was one of five votes he received in that election.

We don't know exactly his numbers for the first third of his career. But from his reputation, and his numbers later, he must've been one of the best pre-1871.

All players with OPS+ of 120, age 34-on, 600+ G, through 1924.

Rk Player OPS+ G PA From To
1 Honus Wagner 139 1330 5507 1908 1917
2 Roger Connor 133 662 2917 1892 1897
3 Nap Lajoie 132 994 4019 1909 1916
4 Cap Anson 132 1466 6484 1886 1897
5 Fred Clarke 129 696 2890 1907 1915
6 Joe Start 127 742 3318 1877 1886
7 Jake Beckley 123 644 2730 1902 1907
8 Jim O'Rourke 123 1047 4610 1885 1904 That's some pretty fast company; all are in the Hall of Fame and the BBFHOF except for Start (who was elected to the Hall of Merit in 1912). Actually, Start was probably more reknowned for his fielding, at a time when 1B was a "glove" position more than a "bat" position.

jalbright

01-30-2010, 06:07 PM

John Beckwith, I don't know. Is he like Traynor? If so, well, I'm not in Traynor-territory yet.

John Beckwith was very little like Traynor. He didn't have the glove that Traynor had, though he did play a lot of shortstop in the Negro Leagues. He hit for averages Traynor liked, and probably would have walked a fair amount more than Traynor mainly because a) Traynor rarely took a walk, and b) Beckwith had power, so pitchers had to be more careful with him. That power difference is huge, as Traynor had 58 career homers--a total I think Beckwith would have gotten in two no better than average years.

Here's what I have on him in my musings thread:

John Beckwith

His list of accolades is short, which I would ascribe as largely due to his prickly personality:
1) Elected to Baseball Think Factory's "Hall of Merit";
2) Second team in the Pittsburgh Courier poll in a "utility" role;
3) finished 36th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries; and
4) Elected to the BBF HOF.

Everybody agrees the man could flat out hit. In 119 at bats against major leaguers, he hit .311. The Baseball Think Factory guys project that for his career he was a 333/387/522 hitter who would have amassed 2451 hits. There's no one who hit .300 for his career while slugging .500 for his career with over 2000 career hits who has failed to make Cooperstown. Big John bests those marks easily.

The BTF guys translate those career marks to 315 career win shares, 136 in his best five consecutive seasons and a top three of 30, 28 and 27. I'd say those marks put him behind Brooks Robinson (355 career; 130 best 5 consecutive; and top three of 33, 27 and 25) and Stan Hack (318 career, 140 best 5 consecutive; and a top three of 34, 33 and 31). However, those marks easily best Pie Traynor's 271 career, 119 best five consecutive and a top three of 28, 26 and 26.

There are some other key points of evidence that I'd like to mention: John Holway named him an all-star five times in the days before a Negro League all-star game, and also named him an MVP once. In the Negro Leagues, he led in average and homers once each, and in the California Winter League, he led in homers twice.

William McNeil on page 95 of Cool Papas and Double Duties writes:

Beckwith was a big moody individual, standing 6' 3" tall and weighing in at a muscular 230 pounds, he was ready to fight at the slightest affront. he battled with his teammates, with players on other teams, and with umpires . . . . As a result, the powerful slugger moved around frequently, playing with no less tha 14 teams over a storied 23 year career . . . [Some, though] thought Beckwith's [reputation for a] bad attitude was a bum rap.

The fact he served as a manager would also seem to indicate his reputation was a bit overblown.

Riley on page 70 of his Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues says:

During his prime, Beckwith was regarded as one ot the top players by his peers, and he possessed sufficient versatility afield to play almost any position. However he did not excel [defensively] at any position.

Beckwith was amazing with a bat in his hand. Listen to this from William McNeil's Baseball's Other Stars, page 59:

His .356 career batting average, one of the highest ever recorded in the Negro Leagues, included a league leading .430 om 1930. He also captured two home run crowns in '30 and '31. Beckwith's extra base output was awesome, averaging 33 doubles, eight triples and 30 home runs for every 550 at bats [in his career].

I'll also add this by AG2004:

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

During his prime, with the exception of the Harrisburg Giants years (they had Oscar Charleston), he usually was. However, he played for the Chicago American Giants, Baltimore Black Sox, Harrisburg Giants, and Homestead Grays during a five-year period in his prime.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Cobb’s projections indicate that Beckwith would have had more win shares than any major league 3B in 1923, 1924, 1925, 1929, and 1931, and would have finished second in 1921, 1922, and 1927. There were ten seasons when Beckwith’s win share projections would have ranked him higher than any AL third baseman (including 1928 and 1930). He was the best 3B in the Negro Leagues during the 1920s, and possibly the best in baseball as well.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Not really.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Yes.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

He is not the best player outside the BBFHOF.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

I’m using Chris Cobb’s partially regressed figures; in Cobb’s opinion, the fully regressed projections push the value of Beckwith’s best individual seasons down too far, although they don’t affect the value of his five best consecutive seasons.

Career win shares, 3B: Tommy Leach 329, Graig Nettles 322, Ron Santo 322, BECKWITH 318, Stan Hack 318, Home Run Baker 301, Buddy Bell 299. This is generally BBFHOF territory.

Best three seasons, 3B: Stan Hack 98, Sal Bando 96, Heinie Groh 95, BECKWITH 92, Bobby Bonilla 91, Paul Molitor 89, Darrell Evans 87, Tommy Leach 87, Howard Johnson 87, Ken Boyer 86, Brooks Robinson 85, Art Devlin 85. Beckwith is in the cutoff area.

Best five consecutive seasons, 3B: Sal Bando 143, Stan Hack 140, BECKWITH 136, Paul Molitor 133, Howard Johnson 133, Bobby Bonilla 132, Ken Boyer 131, Brooks Robinson 130, Jimmie Collins 129. Again, Beckwith is in good company.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

We don’t have adequate information to answer this question. However, while he is not in Cooperstown, Beckwith is a member of the Hall of Merit.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Beckwith may have been a disruptive influence on his teams.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

One could make the argument that he is the best 3B outside the BBFHOF. Of the players at his position with at least 290 win shares (earned or, for Negro Leaguers, MLE equivalents), Beckwith easily has the best peak.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

He had two seasons which project to 30+ win shares. Holway lists him as his Eastern MVP for 1925.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Holway lists Beckwith as an All-Star four times. However, Beckwith had nine seasons which project to 20+ win shares. Having nine such seasons is a good sign for Beckwith.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

At his prime, yes.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not that I know of.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Beckwith once punched out teammate Bill Holland after Holland criticized him for making an error.

On the other hand, Beckwith was generally the manager of his teams from 1924 to 1942, so Bill James’ and Riley’s assessments of his character is excessively negative. He did jump from team to team very often in the 1920s, probably because he wasn’t willing to accept poor treatment or a lower salary than he thought he was worth. Al Fennar, who knew Beckwith for 25 years, admitted that Beckwith had a temper and would jump all over slackers, but would help young players who worked hard.

CONCLUSION: If Beckwith’s character were really as bad as Bill James described, then there would be an argument for leaving him out despite his record. But James got his information secondhand, and, in this case, the information he received was very poor. Beckwith belongs in the BBFHOF.

J W

01-31-2010, 11:02 AM

Thanks. I also believe this is a fine time to elect Beckwith. Early returns sure point to a Musial-Beckwith-Stovey ticket.

PVNICK

02-01-2010, 04:14 AM

1. Stan Musial
2. Bob Caruthers
3. Bill Terry
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Jack Glasscock
6. Joe Gordon
7. Max Carey
8. John Beckwith
9. Early Wynn
10. Harry Stovey
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Bobby Doerr

1. O.P. Caylor
2. Connolly
3. Chance
4. Weiss
5. Etta Manley

Captain Cold Nose

02-01-2010, 04:59 AM

1. Stan Musial
2. Max Carey
3. Sam Thompson
4. Edd Roush
5. Frank Grant
6. Harry Stovey
7. Pete Hill
8. Bobby Doerr
9. John Beckwith
10. Dizzy Dean
11. Bill Terry
12. Earl Averill

Contributors

1. Frank Chance
2. Tom Connolly
3. Billy Evans
4. C.I. Taylor
5. George Weiss

J W

02-01-2010, 08:16 AM

Players

1. Stan Musial
2. Frank Grant
3. Pete Hill
4. Joe Sewell
5. John Beckwith
6. Willard Brown
7. Joe McGinnity
8. Bobby Doerr
9. Addie Joss
10. Early Wynn
11. Bob Caruthers
12. Earl Averill

Contributors

1. Ed Bolden
2. Billy Southworth
3. Jim Mutrie
4. Frank Chance
George Weiss

dgarza

02-01-2010, 08:43 AM

In 119 at bats against major leaguers, he hit .311. This is against MLs. OK. Probably 30- or 40-something games?

The Baseball Think Factory guys project that for his career he was a 333/387/522 hitter who would have amassed 2451 hits. So then what is this based on? Are these suggested numbers? Real numbers? Based on NL or MLB play?

jalbright

02-01-2010, 09:15 AM

So then what is this based on? Are these suggested numbers? Real numbers? Based on NL or MLB play?

It's based on Chris Cobb's (IIRC) major league equivalent of the data we have on his Negro League career. You'd have to consult the thread on Beckwith to learn precisely how it was done. That said, I've seen a lot of the work done over there, and by and large, I find their results quite reasonable given both the reputations of the players involved and the supporting stats they have. They're willing to follow the data where it leads, so things like whether Dick Lundy walked at all can make a big difference. Some may not find this as persuasive as I, and I can understand that. However, I don't think anyone can make a case that these efforts are anything but fairly undertaken with a fidelity to what the evidence provides. One may disagree with the methods used to arrive at the results, but they are based in reality. Basically, I find them useful to help put guys like Beckwith in context. YMMV.

Paul Wendt

02-01-2010, 09:18 AM

There are two contributors joining the list in 1965:

Hubbard , Cal
Manley , Effa
Remarkably from my perspective, they both have a vote already.

About the umpires (Hubbard), I am still looking for sources of information between the 1970s that I have lived (Shag Crawford?) and the 1900s that I have studied.

CCN, You have explained that you are a dedicated amateur or semipro umpire. Where do you read about past umpires? In daily newspapers from their time (as I have c.1900 covering Connolly and others).

Mark leecemark, Why Evans in particular? Wherefrom do you know him?

dgarza, Why Hubbard in particular? Wherefrom do you know him?

Paul Wendt

02-01-2010, 09:36 AM

This is against MLs. OK. Probably 30- or 40-something games?

So then what is this based on? Are these suggested numbers? Real numbers? Based on NL or MLB play?

They are scaled to contemporary MLB play (batting and scoring rates, season length). I think that is what you mean by "base" as in base 10, base 2, etc.

They are estimates derived from data on NeL play that is fairly complete for the 1920s, iirc.

As I recall, "John Beckwith" is the thread with the most discussion of methods and parameters. It's early, beginning about the time that Chris Cobb decided to undertake MLE systematically for all remaining and upcoming candidates.

dgarza

02-01-2010, 09:38 AM

It's based on Chris Cobb's (IIRC) major league equivalent of the data we have on his Negro League career. So, in brief, .333/.387/.522 w/ 2451 hits are suggested MLB possible numbers based on his historical NL numbers. This is what it sounds like you are saying.

I was confused on your previous post:
The Baseball Think Factory guys project that for his career he was a 333/387/522 hitter who would have amassed 2451 hits.

"Was a 333/387/522 hitter" sounded like those were his real NL stats.

And "would have amassed 2451 hits" sounded like the projected MLB stats.

dgarza

02-01-2010, 09:40 AM

I think that is what you mean by "base" as in base 10, base 2, etc.

Why that, and not "base" as in "source"?

Paul Wendt

02-01-2010, 10:38 AM

Why that, and not "base" as in "source"?

> Real numbers? Based on NL or MLB play?

Evidently "NL" means Negro Leagues (NeL) and "MLB" means major leagues but we all know that most NeL stars including Beckwith never played in the major leagues. So the alternatives makes sense as scales of presentation, not as sources of evidence.

MLE by Chris Cobb are scaled to contemporary major league play. MLE batting average .337 in 1930 means batting .337 in the 1930 major league season with an average home ballpark. (The MLE records may be scaled specifically to NL average or AL average.)

dgarza

02-01-2010, 10:51 AM

Evidently "NL" means Negro Leagues (NeL) and "MLB" means major leagues but we all know that most NeL stars including Beckwith never played in the major leagues. So the alternatives makes sense as scales of presentation, not as sources of evidence.

As jalbright noted, Beckwith did play against major leaguers and there is some record of it, even if he never played in the Major Leagues officially. So I was just looking for some clarification.

jalbright

02-01-2010, 02:06 PM

I've seen a few voters rank Bobby Doerr and not Joe Gordon. To me, this is a misunderstanding of the available information. Here's a prior conversation I've had on the issue:

Wartime credit for what? Ok, he missed two seasons (and he hit below .250 in both '43 and '46, so giving him two more of those doesn't help him much at all), but that gives him a whopping 13 total, and as both a batsman and a fielder I think he's quite overrated.

....

And Bobby Doerr was the best second baseman of the 40s, hands down, in the field and at bat. That's why Doerr has been in the Hall for 20 years and Gordon still isn't there.

I'm not going to knock Doerr's selection to the Hall, but he's nowhere near "hands down" better than Joe Gordon. Why do I say that? Both were all-stars nine times, but Doerr had one in 1944, when Gordon was in the service. Gordon did better in MVP voting than Doerr, 1.57 MVP shares to Doerr's 0.93 (and Doerr had 0.22 in 1944, when a lot of the best ballplayers were in the military). Gordon was the Sporting News All-Star second baseman (their pick as the best in the majors) six times, Doerr twice (one of them being 1944). But the real evidence that knocks the Doerr was better than Gordon argument into a cocked hat IMO is the following from Chapter 12 in Bill James' Politics of Glory, (later renamed Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?), in which James gives the career home/road splits of the two men:

HOME
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB avg OBP slg
Doerr 954 3554 634 1119 246 46 145 743 465 0.315 0.395 0.532
Gordon 769 2718 422 696 112 25 119 437 358 0.256 0.346 0.447

ROAD
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB avg OBP slg
Doerr 911 3539 460 923 135 43 78 504 344 0.261 0.327 0.389
Gordon 797 2989 492 854 152 27 134 538 401 0.279 0.367 0.482

If Doerr was truly better, how is it that on the road, in 114 less games and 493 less plate appearances, Gordon: scored more runs, had more doubles, more homers, more RBI, more walks, not to mention a higher average, higher OBP, and higher slugging percentage? Seems to me the "hands down" advantage Doerr enjoyed was his home park helped him a lot, while Gordon had to play in tough home parks for his skills.

In short, if you're voting for Doerr, unless he's twelfth, Gordon at a bare minimum in my opinion belongs on your ballot as well.

jalbright

02-01-2010, 02:12 PM

There is a quote from William McNeil in the post on Beckwith which credits him with a .356 average, which is in Negro League play. That same quote gives Negro league extra base hits per 550 AB.

Perhaps my language could have been clearer, but the major league equivalent for Beckwith is stated as "projected" data.

Tiboreau

02-02-2010, 09:57 PM

1. Stan Musial
2. Pete Hill
3. Wes Ferrell
4. Hughie Jennings
5. George Gore
6. Charlie Keller
7. Bobby Wallace
8. Charlie Bennett
9. Jose Mendez
10. Alejandro Oms
11. Bobby Doerr
12. Jack Glasscock

jalbright

02-03-2010, 02:36 AM

We now have a quorum on the player side, and are one short of that status on the contributor side.

AstrosFan

02-04-2010, 02:08 PM

1. Stan Musial
2. Max Carey
3. John Beckwith
4. Harry Stovey
5. Earl Averill
6. Bill Terry
7. Joe Gordon
8. Bobby Doerr
9. George Gore
10. Pete Hill
11. Frank Grant
12. Early Wynn

1. C. I. Taylor
2. George Weiss
3. Tom Connolly
4. Frank Chance
5. Dickey Pearce

Freakshow

02-04-2010, 02:33 PM

1 Stan Musial
2 Joe Start
3 George Gore
4 Red Faber
5 Wes Ferrell
6 Joe Gordon
7 Ezra Sutton
8 Frank Grant
9 Jack Glasscock
10 Bobby Doerr
11 Pete Hill
12 Max Carey

jalbright

02-04-2010, 04:53 PM

We now have quorums on both sides of the ballot.

jalbright

02-05-2010, 02:04 PM

We have two voters from last election yet to vote in this one: Brad Harris and jaxxr. If they haven't voted by Monday, I'll PM them.

Next election, we'll add three new names to our contributor list:

Hutchinson , Fred
Reese , Jimmie
Sewell , Luke

We'll also add the following to our eligible players:

Adams , Bobby
Campanella , Roy
Hearn , Jim
Newhouser , Hal
Pafko , Andy
Spahn , Warren
Valo , Elmer

Spahn will be #1 for me, and Campy #2. The wild card is how Newhouser does.

Paul Wendt

02-09-2010, 09:39 AM

Thanks to Hall of Merit newcomer Alex King there has been some new sabrmetric discussion of Negro Leagues players this winter. For Hilton Smith that includes an estimate of his extraordinary value as a batter.
Hilton Smith at the Hall of Merit (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/hilton_smith/)

Newly eligible candidates will dominate the Hall of Merit election for 2011 as they did for 2010 but Smith will begin to get some votes.

By the way, the new candidates stand so tall that election season, October/November, may not be relevant to most players in the backlog and vice versa. New sources and new discussion for backloggers may be almost as likely at a random time during the year.

ConnieMack

02-09-2010, 02:44 PM

Players

1 - Stan Musial
2 - Sam Thompson
3 - Chuck Klein
4 - Joe Gordon
5 - Bill Terry
6 - Pud Galvin
7 - Bobby Doerr
8 - Pete Browning
9 - Early Wynn
10 - Dizzy Dean
11 - Bob Lemon
12 - Earl Averill

Contributors

1 - Ford Frick
2 - Tom Connaly
3 - George Weiss
4 - C.I. Taylor
5 - Charles Conlon

Paul Wendt

02-09-2010, 09:39 PM

Welcome, Mr. Mack
You are the first person we elected.
Why Ford Frick?

ConnieMack

02-10-2010, 02:27 PM

Welcome, Mr. Mack
You are the first person we elected.
Why Ford Frick?

Honored to be the first person elected.

Why Frick ?

My reasons are His long service to the game, 17 years as National League president, presiding over the time of integration, threatening suspensions to any players who planned to boycott games because of Jackie Robinson being in the lineup.
Another 14 or 15 years as Commissioner of Baseball, reigning over the first league expansions and Bringing in the Baseball draft.
I believe He was also instrumental in wanting a National Baseball Museum , which ultimately lead to the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

Paul Wendt

02-10-2010, 02:40 PM

According to the history by Vlasich,
Frick was practically the author of the Hall of Fame itself, not the Museum, which was a Cooperstown idea.

That book covers the development of the museum, hall of fame, and baseball centennial, including the Doubleday and Cartwright stories.
...

Now I see that Vlasich wrote a later book on the Hall of Fame selection history.

#
A legend for the legendary: the origin of the Baseball Hall of Fame - Google Books Result
James A. Vlasich - 1990 - Sports & Recreation - 266 pages
Indeed, the story of the building of the Baseball Hall of Fame is filled with intrigue worthy of a political thriller.
books.google.com/books?isbn=0879724943... -
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James A. Vlasich - The Road to Cooperstown: A Critical History of ...
by JA Vlasich - 2003
Certain myths, axioms, and trends involving the Hall of Fame election process ... James A. Vlasich is a professor of history at Southern Utah University in ...
muse.jhu.edu/journals/nine/v011/11.2vlasich.html -

jalbright

02-11-2010, 05:21 AM

I join in welcoming our newest voter, ConnieMack.

We've got just over 39 1/2 hours left in this election as I write. Time to get your ballot in if you're voting this election!

jaxxr

02-11-2010, 01:50 PM

1 Addie Joss
2 Stan Musial
3 Bill Terry
4 Chuck Klein
5 Dizzy Dean
6 Ray Dandridge
7 Hugh Duffy
8 Joe McGinnity
9 Early Wynn
10 Pud Galvin
11 Bob Caruthers
12 Max Carey

jalbright

02-13-2010, 10:04 AM

We had 14 player ballots and 11 contributor ballots. On the player side, we inducted Stan Musial, John Beckwith and Harry Stovey. The full results are as follows:

Player………… votes pts
Musial, Stan 14 167
Beckwith, John 9 67
Stovey , Harry 9 63
Gordon, Joe 9 57
Gore , George 7 50
Carey , Max 8 46
Hill , Pete…….. 8 46
Terry , Bill 6 45
Bennett , C 5 37
Doerr, Bobby 9 37
Wynn, Early 9 35
Sutton , Ezra 5 32
Thompson , S 3 32
Grant , Frank 5 30
Klein, Chuck 3 29
Galvin , Pud 5 28
Ferrell, Wes 3 26
Glasscock , J 4 22
Start , Joe 2 21
McGinnity , Joe 4 20
Joss , Addie 3 19
Caruthers , B 4 18
Starffin, V 3 15
Dean, Dizzy 3 14
Duffy , Hugh 2 13
Averill, Earl 4 11
Browning , P 2 10
Berger , Wally 1 9
Faber , Red 1 9
Jennings , H 1 9
Roush , Edd 1 9
Sewell , Joe 1 9
Brown, Willard 1 7
Dandridge, Ray 1 7
Keller , Charlie 1 7
Wallace , B 1 6
Lemon, Bob 2 4
Maranville , R 1 4
McCormick , J 1 4
Mendez , Jose 1 4
Oms, Alejandro 1 3
Richardson , H 1 3
Rizzuto , Phil 1 3
Grimes , B 1 2
Welch , Mickey 1 2
Smith, Hilton 1 1

On the contributor side, we inducted Tom Connolly. The full results are as follows:

Contributor……. votes pts
Connolly , Tom 8 30
Weiss, George 11 28
Taylor , C. I. 8 27
Chance , Frank 8 23
Pearce, Dickey 5 11
Frick, Ford 2 10
Bolden, Ed 2 8
Caylor , O. P. 1 5
Conlon , C 3 4
Evans, Billy 2 4
Hubbard, Cal 1 4
Southworth, B 1 4
Mutrie, Jim 1 3
Ruppert , Jacob 1 3
Manley, Effa 1 1