BBF VC Progressive HoF Election: 1985

[Ace Venom]

1985 Players VC Election

Below is the final ballot for the 1985 VC Players Election. Voters can vote for as many candidates as they wish with 75% support required to elect a player. Voting will be open for seven days, at which point we'll tabulate votes provided we have a quorum consisting of at least 12 of the 15 VC members having voted. Anyone is free to participate in the discussion and submit a ballot but only ballots from the 15 VC members will be counted. Voting ends on Monday, May 24 at 4:02 PM EST.

- The 1985 ballot will consist of:
1) Every player that previously made a final VC ballot;
2) Every player that received at least 1/3 support in the regular election;
3) Every player that lasted 15 years on the regular ballot.

-Voters can vote for as many players as they wish on the ballot and can also vote for up to 2 write-in candidates. If any write-in candidates receive at least 50% support, I'll list him on the next ballot. I will supply a master list so voters know who is eligible for write-ins

- If a player on the ballot does not receive at least 2 votes he will not appear on the following ballot (though the player will be eligible for write-in votes). So the 1990 ballot will consist of:
1) Every player from the 1985 ballot who received at least 2 votes;
2) Every newly eligible player that received 1/3 support in the regular election or lasted 15 years on the regular ballot; and
3) Any players who received at least 4 (or roughly 1/3) votes as a write-in in the 1980 elections.

Final Ballot (43)
Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combs
Larry Corcoran
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Kiki Cuyler
Dom DiMaggio
Johnny Evers
Vic Harris
Gil Hodges
Bob Johnson
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
George Kell
Charlie Keller
Chuck Klein
Ted Kluszewski
Heinie Manush
John McGraw
Dobie Moore
Buddy Myer
Don Newcombe
Buck O'Neill
Al Rosen
Red Schoendienst
Urban Shocker
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Quincy Trouppe
Hippo Vaughan
Bobby Veach
Mickey Vernon
Dixie Walker
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson

- Bold denotes newly eligible.

PAST RESULTS

Player Year Elected
Tommy Bridges 1970
Wilbur Cooper 1950
Clark Griffith 1940
Burleigh Grimes 1960
Tony Lazzeri 1980
Tommy Leach 1940
Ernie Lombardi 1980
Herman Long 1925
Rabbit Maranville 1925
Carl Mays 1970
Cal McVey 1920
Dickey Pearce 1920
Lip Pike 1920
Sam Rice 1955
Hardy Richardson 1920
Eppa Rixey 1955
Phil Rizzuto 1980
Jimmy Ryan 1930
Wally Schang 1980
Jimmy Sheckard 1945
Joe Start 1920
Ezra Sutton 1920
Bucky Walters 1970
Mickey Welch 1920

Links to Past Results

1920 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=83697)
1925 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=84636)
1930 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=85439)
1935 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=86576)
1940 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=87854)
1945 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=89707)
1950 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=90804)
1955 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=92049)
1960 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=93384)
1965 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1637354)
1970 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?95353-BBF-VC-Progressive-HoF-Election-1970)
1975 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?96366-BBF-VC-Progressive-HoF-Election-1975)
1980 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?97064-BBF-VC-Progressive-HoF-Election-1980)

1980 Master List



Babe Adams
Joe Adcock
Johnny Antonelli
Buzz Arlett
Bobby Avila
Dave Bancroft
Dick Bartell
Ginger Beaumont
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Lu Blue
Tommy Bond
Jim Bottomley
Bill Bradley
Kitty Bransfield
Harry Brecheen
Chet Brewer
Willard Brown
Clete Boyer
Charlie Buffinton
Jack Burdock
George J. Burns
Oyster Burns
Phil Cavarretta
Perucho Cepeda
Ray Chapman
Jack Chesbro
John Clapp
Boileryard Clarke
Harlond Clift
Earle Combs
Jack Coombs
Waler Cooper
Larry Corcoran
Tommy Corcoran
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Candy Cummings
Nig Cuppy
Kiki Cuyler
Abner Dalyrmple
Alvin Dark
Harry Davis
Paul Derringer
Dom DiMaggio
Bill Dinneen
Mike Donlin
Bill Donovan
Jack Doyle
Fred Dunlap
Frank Dwyer
Jimmie Dykes
Johnny Evers
Roy Face
Ferris Fain
Ron Fairly
Duke Farrell
Bob Ferguson
Rick Ferrell
Cherokee Fisher
Ray Fisher
Wes Fisler
Silver Flint
Davy Force
Russ Ford
Rube Foster
Dave Foutz
Bud Fowler
Augie Galan
Larry Gardner
Kid Gleason
Mike Griffin
Chick Hafey
Noodles Hahn
Ned Hanlon
Vic Harris
Topsy Hartsel
Claude Hendrix
Tommy Henrich
Babe Herman
Buck Herzog
Gil Hodges
Solly Hofman
Harry Hooper
Dummy Hoy
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Travis Jackson
Jackie Jensen
Bob Johnson
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
Fielder Jones
Joe Judge
Benny Kauff
George Kell
Charlie Keller
George Kelly
Brickyard Kennedy
Silver King
Chuck Klein
Johnny Kling
Ted Klusewski
Arlie Latham
Sam Leever
Jim Lemon
Andy Leonard
Dutch Leonard
Sherm Lollar
Al Lopez
Bobby Lowe
Dolf Luque
Denny Lyons
Sal Maglie
Fergy Malone
Heinie Manush
Marty Marion
Roger Maris
Pepper Martin
Bobby Mathews
Firpo Marberry
Rube Marquard
Jimmy McAleer
Dick McAuliffe
Dick McBride
Tommy McCarthy
Jim McCormick
Gil McDougald
John McGraw
Deacon McGuire
Ed McKean
Don McMahon
Levi Meyerle
Dobie Moore
Buddy Myer
Billy Nash
Don Newcombe
Bobo Newsom
Jack O'Connor
Lefty O'Doul
Tip O'Neal
John "Buck" O'Neill
Dave Orr
Orval Overall
Mel Parnell
Herb Pennock
John Peters
Deacon Phillippe
Cumberland Posey
Jack Powell
Del Pratt
Jack Quinn
Ted Radcliffe
Ed Reulbach
Claude Ritchey
Wilbert Robinson
Al Rosen
Jack Rowe
Cy Seymour
Ray Schalk
Urban Shocker
Red Schoendienst
Curt Simmons
Chino Smith
Chick Stahl
Eddie Stanky
George Stone
George Stovall
Jesse Tannehill
Ben Taylor
Jeff Tesreau
Roy Thomas
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Cecil Travis
Hal Trosky
Quincy Trouppe
Terry Turner
Elmer Valo
Johnny Vander Meer
Hippo Vaughn
Bobby Veach
Mickey Vernon
Lon Warneke
Dixie Walker
Lloyd Waner
John Warner
Doc White
Will White
Jim Whitney
Cy Williams
Jimmy Williams
Ned Williamson
Hack Wilson
Hooks Wiltsie
Joe Wood
Rudy York
Tom York
Eddie Yost
Ross Youngs
George Zettlein
Chief Zimmer

[DoubleX]

Dave Bancroft
Wally Berger
Willard Brown
Lave Cross
Kiki Cuyler
Johnny Evers
Mike Griffin - Write In
Bob Johnson
Charley Jones
Chuck Klein
Jim McCormick - Write In
Buddy Myer
Red Schoendienst
Mike Tiernan
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson

[Cowtipper]

Voting for (33):

Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Perucho Cepeda
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combs
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Kiki Cuyler
Dom DiMaggio
Vic Harris
Gil Hodges
Bob Johnson
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
George Kell
Charlie Keller
Chuck Klein
Ted Kluszewski
Ed Konetchy (write-in)
Heinie Manush
Jim McCormick (write-in)
Buddy Myer
Buck O'Neil
Al Rosen
Red Schoendienst
Urban Shocker
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Hippo Vaughan
Bobby Veach
Mickey Vernon
Dixie Walker
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson

Not voting for (10):

Dave Bancroft
Willard Brown
Larry Corcoran
Johnny Evers
John McGraw
Dobie Moore
Don Newcombe
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Quincy Trouppe

[Domenic]

Wally Berger
Willard Brown
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Dom DiMaggio
Bob Johnson
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
John McGraw
Buck O'Neill
Urban Shocker

[Ace Venom]

Pretty generous here.

Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Larry Corcoran
Kiki Cuyler
Dom DiMaggio
Johnny Evers
Larry Gardner (write-in)
Vic Harris
Gil Hodges
Bob Johnson
Charley Jones
George Kell
Charlie Keller
Chuck Klein
Ed Konetchy (write-in)
John McGraw
Dobie Moore
Buck O'Neill
Al Rosen
Urban Shocker
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Joe Tinker
Quincy Trouppe
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson

[jalbright]

Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Charlie Keller
Dobie Moore
Chino Smith
Quincy Trouppe
Hack Wilson

[jjpm74]

Just curious, why are people going out of their way to not vote for Dobie Moore? His HOF case seems stronger than many who have been elected.

[Cowtipper]

Just curious, why are people going out of their way to not vote for Dobie Moore? His HOF case seems stronger than many who have been elected.

He's back!

[Fielding Marshall]

Just curious, why are people going out of their way to not vote for Dobie Moore? His HOF case seems stronger than many who have been elected.

I was going to say, the fact that Dobie Moore hasn't received more support is downright curious. He's a member of the Hall of Merit, but, more interestingly, has already been elected to a project on this very site: the Hall of Fame Purgatory, which tried to determine which players retired by 2004 or earlier are one of the top 231 players of all time, yet are somehow not in the Hall. With more or less the same voting body, Moore went in without a fight, if I recall correctly. I've always supported Moore; is there some reason why he gets so little support in this project?

(Nice to see you back, by the way)

[SavoyBG]

Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
John McGraw
Don Newcombe

[PVNICK]

Bancroft
Cross
Evers
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
Moore
Rosen
Shocker
Tiernan

[mwiggins]

Shocker
Tinker
McGraw
D. DiMaggio
B. Johnson
Keller
Youngs (write-in)
Travis (write-in)

[dgarza]

Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Willard Brown
Jack Chesbro
Earle Combs
Larry Corcoran
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Kiki Cuyler
Johnny Evers
Rube Foster
Gil Hodges
Bob Johnson
Judy Johnson
George Kell
Chuck Klein
Heinie Manush
Firpo Marberry (write in)
Jim McCormick (write in)
Al Rosen
Red Schoendienst
Urban Shocker
Ben Taylor
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Hippo Vaughan
Bobby Veach
Mickey Vernon
Dixie Walker
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson

[Captain Cold Nose]

Wally Berger
Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Lave Cross
Kiki Cuyler
Vic Harris
Gil Hodges
Bob Johnson
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
George Kell
Heinie Manush
Dobie Moore
Red Schoendienst
Chino Smith
Quincy Trouppe

[KCGHOST]

Johnny Evers
John McGraw
Urban Shocker
Mike Tiernan

[joggerdru]

Bender
Hodges
Klein
McGraw
Shocker
Tieran
Tinker
Veach
Warneke

[Matthew C.]

Shocker
McGraw
McCormick (write-in)

Man, some of you might as well send out HOF invitations with census forms! :)

[Fielding Marshall]

Dave Bancroft
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Jim Bottomley
Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Earle Combs
Gavvy Cravath
Lave Cross
Kiki Cuyler
Dom DiMaggio
Johnny Evers
Vic Harris
Bob Johnson
Judy Johnson
Charley Jones
George Kell
Charlie Keller
Chuck Klein
Ted Kluszewski
Heinie Manush
Jim McCormick - Write-in
John McGraw
Dobie Moore
Buddy Myer
Don Newcombe
Al Rosen
Red Schoendienst
Urban Shocker
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Mike Tiernan
Joe Tinker
Quincy Trouppe
Bobby Veach
Mickey Vernon
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson
Ross Youngs - Write-in

[Domenic]

I edited my ballot, adding Dom DiMaggio. Sorry if this causes any confusion.

[Brad Harris]

Wally Berger
Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Gavvy Cravath
Kiki Cuyler
Dom DiMaggio
Johnny Evers
Bob Johnson
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
John McGraw
Dobie Moore
Don Newcombe
Urban Shocker
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Mike Tiernan
Quincy Trouppe
Hippo Vaughan
Bobby Veach
Mickey Vernon
Lon Warneke
Hack Wilson

[Paul Wendt]

Dave Bancroft
Gavvy Cravath
Vic Harris
Fielder Jones (write-in)
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
John McGraw
Dobie Moore
Don Newcombe
Urban Shocker
Chino Smith
Ben Taylor
Roy Thomas (write-in)
Joe Tinker
Quincy Trouppe

[DoubleX]

I edited mine to remove Joe Tinker. I don't recall voting for him.

[mwiggins]

I edited mine to remove Joe Tinker. I don't recall voting for him.

You may have re-thought him last time, when we looked at Rizzuto and SS's in general - esp how WAR treated them. IIRC, Tinker looked pretty good in comparison to our current Hall of Famers.

[DoubleX]

You may have re-thought him last time, when we looked at Rizzuto and SS's in general - esp how WAR treated them. IIRC, Tinker looked pretty good in comparison to our current Hall of Famers.

I do recall that conversation and coming away more impressed with Tinker than I had been, but I don't think I was over the hump yet. Either way, my vote won't make a difference.

Where my vote could make a difference is for Urban Shocker. If I counted correctly, Shocker is one vote away right now. I've consistently struggled with Shocker, but have never quite given him the green light. I can see how he could fit in with the lower end of our standards and be a good comp for someone like Tommy Bridges. For me, the line has actually been between Bridges and Shocker (with players like Bucky Walters and Wilbur Cooper being mistakes, IMO). But perhaps I'm not giving Shocker enough credit, and maybe he had a little bit left in the tank if not for his early death.

So if anyone feels strongly about Shocker's case, I'd be willing to listen, and it may very well make the difference for him in this election. I also see nothing wrong with changing my ballot at this point, as I believe the VC election should be an free flowing discourse with votes subject to change until it's closed.

I also believe Charley Jones is one vote away. For decades now he's just missed election by a vote or two virtually every time out, perhaps it's time we revisited him with some discussion. He's pretty much the last 19th century player or even pre-1920s player with a realistic shot at election at this point (though Lave Cross and John McGraw have picked up some votes this election), so it may be worth a last strong look on that period.

[Ace Venom]

Charley Jones has come close and we had quite a bit of discussion on him in the previous election. I remember linking to the HoM discussion for Jones in the 1980 VC election.

If you look at Urban Shocker's case by WAR, his 47.0 WAR is higher than some other starting pitchers we've inducted like Gomez (43.0), Lemon (42.4), Ferrell (41.3) and Dean (39.6). However, this isn't the Hall of WAR. Ferrell was inducted for being the best hitting pitcher not named George Herman Ruth and Dean entered for the strength of his peak. Shocker also had a 124 ERA+. It's not exactly mind blowing. Shocker is one of those guys who you either think he did enough or he just doesn't make the cut. I think his case would have been sigifnically improved if he pitched his entire career with the Yankees instead of spending most of it with the Browns simply because Shocker would have extra postseason credit. This is what really helped guys like Red Ruffing and Lefty Gomez.

[Ace Venom]

This election is closed. I'll count the ballots this evening.

[Ace Venom]

I've tallied the votes and no one was elected this time. We had two candidates fall one vote short: Bob Johnson and Urban Shocker.

1985 VC Final Results (14 Ballots Cast, 11 Required for Election)
t1) Charley Jones: 10 Votes
t1) Urban Shocker: 10 Votes
t3) Wally Berger: 9 Votes
t3) Bob Johnson: 9 Votes
t5) Willard Brown: 8 Votes
t5) John McGraw: 8 Votes
t7) Lave Cross: 7 Votes
t7) Kiki Cuyler: 7 Votes
t7) Johnny Evers: 7 Votes
t7) Charlie Keller: 7 Votes
t7) Dobie Moore: 7 Votes
t7) Chino Smith: 7 Votes
t7) Hack Wilson: 7 Votes
t14) Perucho Cepeda: 6 Votes
t14) Gavvy Cravath: 6 Votes
t14) Dom DiMaggio: 6 Votes
t14) Judy Johnson: 6 Votes
t14) Mike Tiernan: 6 Votes
t14) Quincy Trouppe: 6 Votes
t20) Dave Bancroft: 5 Votes
t20) Chief Bender: 5 Votes
t20) Vic Harris: 5 Votes
t20) George Kell: 5 Votes
t20) Chuck Klein: 5 Votes
t20) Al Rosen: 5 Votes
t20) Red Schoendienst: 5 Votes
t20) Joe Tinker: 5 Votes
t20) Bobby Veach: 5 Votes
t20) Lon Warneke: 5 Votes
t30) Gil Hodges: 4 Votes
t30) Don Newcombe: 4 Votes
t30) Mickey Vernon: 4 Votes
t33) Earle Combes: 3 Votes
t33) Heinie Manush: 3 Votes
t33) Jim McCormick (write-in): 3 Votes
t33) Buddy Myer: 3 Votes
t33) Buck O'Neill: 3 Votes
t33) Hippo Vaughan: 3 Votes
t39) Jack Chesbro: 2 Votes
t39) Larry Corcoran: 2 Votes
t39) Ted Kluszewski: 2 Votes
t39) Ed Konetchy (write-in): 2 Votes
t39) Dixie Walker: 2 Votes
t39) Ross Youngs (write-in): 2 Votes
t45) Larry Gardner (write-in): 1 Vote
t45) Mike Griffin (write-in): 1 Vote
t45) Fielder Jones (write-in): 1 Vote
t45) Firpo Marberry (write-in): 1 Vote
t45) Roy Thomas (write-in): 1 Vote
t45) Cecil Travis (write-in): 1 Vote

[Cowtipper]

This falls in line with the pattern. During VC years ending in 5 (1975, 1985, et cetera) we normally do not elect anyone.

[Matthew C.]

Charley Jones has come close and we had quite a bit of discussion on him in the previous election. I remember linking to the HoM discussion for Jones in the 1980 VC election.

If you look at Urban Shocker's case by WAR, his 47.0 WAR is higher than some other starting pitchers we've inducted like Gomez (43.0), Lemon (42.4), Ferrell (41.3) and Dean (39.6). However, this isn't the Hall of WAR. Ferrell was inducted for being the best hitting pitcher not named George Herman Ruth and Dean entered for the strength of his peak. Shocker also had a 124 ERA+. It's not exactly mind blowing. Shocker is one of those guys who you either think he did enough or he just doesn't make the cut. I think his case would have been sigifnically improved if he pitched his entire career with the Yankees instead of spending most of it with the Browns simply because Shocker would have extra postseason credit. This is what really helped guys like Red Ruffing and Lefty Gomez.

Well, it isn't really a Hall of Fame either, considering probably 1/3 to 1/2 of its enshriniees' names are probably not recognizable by most casual and moderate fans, And many of the most famous in the game's history are still left out...since we are trying to be literal and everything. But I regress...

Just to give due credit, after considering batting WAR:

Lemon - 51 (with five or six 5+ seasons, and a possible war credit if you chose to)
Shocker - 50 (with a good peak and a career cut suddenly by death)
Ferrell - 53 (with 7/8 years in a row with over 5, all-time peak there)
Dean - 42 (not sure its enough)
Gomez - 38 (whoops, going the wrong way here- borderline even without the batting deduction)
Ruffing - 67 (another big batting bonus, no?)

For the record, Shocker is the last guy I accept in.

[Domenic]

It's a bit too late now, but I will add that I really appreciate Shocker's consistency - he never posted an ERA+ below 104, and only fell below 110 twice. While he didn't have a terribly high peak, he did finish in the top-ten in IP, WHIP, ERA, BB/9, and K/BB every year from 1921 to 1925, which is fairly impressive. And while I'm not sure how much credit he should receive for his untimely death (as he was 37 and may not have had too many years left), it is worth noting that he posted a 136 ERA+ and 2.7 WAR in his last full season.

[Matthew C.]

. And while I'm not sure how much credit he should receive for his untimely death (as he was 37 and may not have had too many years left), it is worth noting that he posted a 136 ERA+ and 2.7 WAR in his last full season.

Right, he was sure to hit 55 or higher without his death- which puts him in pretty solid area. I am cautious of giving too much "death credit" or "fluke injury credit", but I will give some in certain circumstances.

[Domenic]

Right, he was sure to hit 55 or higher without his death- which puts him in pretty solid area. I am cautious of giving too much "death credit" or "fluke injury credit", but I will give some in certain circumstances.

I tend to base such credit off of performance. Had Shocker's last season been mediocre, I probably would evaluate his candidacy at face-value, for example. That he was already fairly old makes it somewhat simple, to boot - someone like Addie Joss is more difficult to evaluate, as he died at 30 and didn't really enter his decline phase.

[Matthew C.]

I tend to base such credit off of performance. Had Shocker's last season been mediocre, I probably would evaluate his candidacy at face-value, for example. That he was already fairly old makes it somewhat simple, to boot - someone like Addie Joss is more difficult to evaluate, as he died at 30 and didn't really enter his decline phase.

Yeah, Shocker's previous 4 seasons' WAR totals were: 4.6, 5.2, 4.0, and 3.1. Looks like he had at least a few more good seasons left.
And you are right about the consistency: eight 4+ WAR seasons in a row. One over 7, one over 6, and three over 5. Very solid peak.

And any extra credit for having one of the best sports names in history? :)

[SavoyBG]

I've tallied the votes and no one was elected this time. We had two candidates fall one vote short: Bob Johnson and Urban Shocker.



I think you mean "Charley Jones" and Urban Shocker.

[DoubleX]

Right, he was sure to hit 55 or higher without his death- which puts him in pretty solid area. I am cautious of giving too much "death credit" or "fluke injury credit", but I will give some in certain circumstances.

I think "death credit" can be appropriate, but it has to be tempered by circumstances. The biggest recipient of "death credit" is probably Addie Joss who passed away at just 31, and may have had several years left in him (if even just decline). In Shocker's case, I'm not sure much "death credit" is appropriate given that he was out of baseball at the time of his death, having been released earlier in the year by the Yankees. He made just one appearance in 1928 before his release, and that was on May 30th. I believe he passed away in September while barnstorming, so it doesn't look like he was going to get back to the Majors in 1928 and at 38, that may very well have been the end of the road for his career.

If Shocker had passed away while an active Major Leaguer, then some "death credit" may be merited, but given that he was out of baseball for several months and his age, his career may well have been over anyway (plus, if he was an active Major Leaguer, he may not have contracted the pneumonia that killed him).

EDIT: I also meant to point out that Shocker was a grandfathered-in spitballer. Spitballing was banned in 1920, so Shocker was able to pitch 2148.2 of his 2681.2 innings throwing a pitch that was otherwise illegal in the game except for a select few grandfathered-in. Being allowed to throw an otherwise illegal pitch may have given Shocker a distinct advantage during what was the vast majority of his career including his peak years. Given how the game was rapidly tilting towards offense and power, Shocker's ability to use the spitball may have indeed been a huge advantage at the time that most his peers could not utilize, thereby giving Shocker a big advantage in terms of ERA+. Without that pitch, would Shocker's ERA+ have been 125 during those seasons?

[Paul Wendt]

It's a bit too late now, but I will add that I really appreciate Shocker's consistency - he never posted an ERA+ below 104, and only fell below 110 twice. While he didn't have a terribly high peak, he did finish in the top-ten in IP, WHIP, ERA, BB/9, and K/BB every year from 1921 to 1925, which is fairly impressive. And while I'm not sure how much credit he should receive for his untimely death (as he was 37 and may not have had too many years left), it is worth noting that he posted a 136 ERA+ and 2.7 WAR in his last full season.

Shocker missed nearly 2/3 of the 1918 season in military service --and he enjoyed a super spring.

Most players missed about 1/6 of a then-regular 154-game schedule when the leagues shut down after Labor Day, and many users of player-season ratings multiply "raw" 1918 ratings by 6/5 = 1.2 in order to weigh that season equally with other 154-game seasons. That covers players who did not enter military service or war work and those who entered only in the fall, such as George Sisler. (Sisler returned before spring 1919 and did not miss any team games played.)

Shocker made his last 1918 start -06-22, or game 55 for a team that eventually played 123. He made his first 1919 starts -05-11 and -05-15 or games 12 and 16 for a team that eventually played 140. The leagues scheduled 154 and 140 games for those two seasons.
: game log, 1918 St Louis Browns (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1918/VSLA01918.htm)
: 1919 (http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1919/VSLA01919.htm)

[Matthew C.]

I think "death credit" can be appropriate, but it has to be tempered by circumstances. The biggest recipient of "death credit" is probably Addie Joss who passed away at just 31, and may have had several years left in him (if even just decline). In Shocker's case, I'm not sure much "death credit" is appropriate given that he was out of baseball at the time of his death, having been released earlier in the year by the Yankees. He made just one appearance in 1928 before his release, and that was on May 30th. I believe he passed away in September while barnstorming, so it doesn't look like he was going to get back to the Majors in 1928 and at 38, that may very well have been the end of the road for his career.

If Shocker had passed away while an active Major Leaguer, then some "death credit" may be merited, but given that he was out of baseball for several months and his age, his career may well have been over anyway (plus, if he was an active Major Leaguer, he may not have contracted the pneumonia that killed him).

EDIT: I also meant to point out that Shocker was a grandfathered-in spitballer. Spitballing was banned in 1920, so Shocker was able to pitch 2148.2 of his 2681.2 innings throwing a pitch that was otherwise illegal in the game except for a select few grandfathered-in. Being allowed to throw an otherwise illegal pitch may have given Shocker a distinct advantage during what was the vast majority of his career including his peak years. Given how the game was rapidly tilting towards offense and power, Shocker's ability to use the spitball may have indeed been a huge advantage at the time that most his peers could not utilize, thereby giving Shocker a big advantage in terms of ERA+. Without that pitch, would Shocker's ERA+ have been 125 during those seasons?

I didn't know he was released before his death - thanks. I wonder why he was released - like I showed, he was very good the year before and even better the few seasons before that. Either way, his death was never a big part of my evaluation to begin with.

However, I will not dock him credit for taking full advantage of a perfectly legal rule...though I can certainly see why others do.

[DoubleX]

I didn't know he was released before his death - thanks. I wonder why he was released - like I showed, he was very good the year before and even better the few seasons before that. Either way, his death was never a big part of my evaluation to begin with.

However, I will not dock him credit for taking full advantage of a perfectly legal rule...though I can certainly see why others do.

I don't know why the Yankees gave up on him. I suspect that given he didn't make his one and only appearance until the end of May, something was physically wrong with him. The fact that no other team took a chance on him after his release may support that as well. In 1927, he saw his innings greatly decline, so that may have been a sign, and he didn't appear in the World Series that year either despite statistically looking like one of the team's three best starters (with Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock).

As for throwing the spitball, it's an interesting debate. As you note, it was legal, at least in relation to Shocker, so you can't fault him for playing by the rules. I actually don't hold it against him, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of his success was due to being able to throw that pitch, especially given the rising levels of offense.