Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
Maybe, but we'll never know. He may have been just that good where even slightly weakened in 1934, he still won the TC.Quote:
Originally Posted by 9RoyHobbsRF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
Maybe, but we'll never know. He may have been just that good where even slightly weakened in 1934, he still won the TC.Quote:
Originally Posted by 9RoyHobbsRF
We may never know but it is highly unlikely he was feeling symptoms of ALS in 1934.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight
Where do I start, what can I say to undo that wrong, the part that I played in some players using PEDs. For some time I've been pointing the finger at the ballplayers, never stopping to think, in a small way I helped lay the foundation for the big bust we now see in MLB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
Sure I'm only one person, one fan but multiply that by millions of fans, millions who paid to watch these games, watch the players, it's not about being only one, millions of us paved the way for the big mess in the game.
I, like the rest of us on the board, fans everywhere all have our own problems in our personal lives, now I have to carry this burden, live with this guilt.
The players most likely will never see this post, but I'm going on record, my apology, to the game and especially to any player who may have suffered for my deeds.
I challenge all this board, the next time you speak about any player, suspect or a proven user...............before you condemn, look in the mirror, you share some of the guilt. I'm sorry.
Mea Maxima Culpa. :pray:
Um...yeah. As if Major League Baseball is the only business that drug tests their employees.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight
To answer questions about Big Mac without steroids, I decided to project his career numbers beyond 1989. This assumes that he does not miss time due to injury. By his own admission, he tried steroids in the 1989-90 offseason. Only his numbers up until the 1989 season are used in the projection using Bill James MLB Career Stat Projection Tool.
Projected Years After 1989: 8.5 (circa mid-1998)
At Bats: 6,269 (average of 543.5 per year)
Hits: 1,676 (29% chance to reach 2,000 with an average of 147 per year)
Singles: 921
Doubles: 273 (39% chance to reach 300 with an average of 24.2 per year)
Triples: 20 (0% chance to reach 50 with an average of 1.8 per year)
Home Runs: 462 (40% chance at 500 with an average of 40.7 per year)
Walks: 868 (average 74.7 per year)
Strikeouts: 1,381 (average 120.2 per year)
Hit By Pitch: 49 (average 4.3 per year)
Sacrifice Flies: 83 (average 7.2 per year)
Total Bases: 3,375
Based on those numbers, his batting average, slugging percentage and on-base percentage can be projected.
Batting Average: .267
On-Base Percentage: .357
Slugging Percentage: .538
His final hit totals are overestimated, but McGwire also missed significant time in 1993 and 1994 due to injuries. It also doesn't take the 1994-95 strike into account either. Despite this, the projection is still fairly close as are the at-bats. The projected .267 batting average is thus a decent projection based on his early career and what he did with steroids. According to McGwire, steroids didn’t make him a better hitter. Based on batting average, it’s possible that they made him worse than his projected value in terms of pure average.
What’s most telling is the difference in power numbers through 1997. A projection to 1998 reveals that McGwire would have been projected to hit only 462 home runs in his career. Through 1997, McGwire only had 387 career home runs and his batting average (.260), hits (1,201) and doubles (198) were significantly below projected values. The addition of 1998 and 199 significantly boosted McGwire’s career totals in terms of power. Much of the problem that McGwire had was that he was dealing with injuries. It’s plausible that knowing what we do about steroids that McGwire’s injuries had some contribution from his steroid use.
What is projected is not a Hall of Famer. Anyone who questions whether or not McGwire belongs in the Hall of Fame can look at what was projected from 1989. McGwire did not have a great chance to reach 500 home runs (only 40%), but it’s possible that he might have reached 500 career home runs. When you take the strike into account, it makes McGwire's quest for 500 very unlikely. McGwire as projected would have needed 500 career home runs to receive Hall of Fame consideration. He had a chance at a fine career if he had never touched steroids, which is a tragedy by itself.
Mark McGwire completely changed his swing in the early 1990's. It was well documented at the time and it drastically altered what he could with a bat.
I concede that the tool doesn't account for that, but even given that fact, McGwire would have had a hard time getting there unless he avoided the injuries that hit him hard in the 1990's. I presume steroids had a lot to do with his injuries much in the same way they plagued Jose Canseco. With all of it said, assuming no injuries and taking the 1994-95 strike into account, it's reasonable to believe that McGwire could have hit somewhere around 450 home runs. Given the rest of his numbers as projected, he wouldn't have enjoyed any consideration for the Hall of Fame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
But that is just pure speculation on your part. My invalid question was only proposed to illustrate how invalid your original question was. Just assuming that the HRs totals would still have been exactly the same is every bit as specious logic as is downplaying McGwire's admitted steroid use by speculating that Maris (might) have also used. Also the idea of possible suggestion that McGwire's HR totals may be all legitimate because some pitchers (may) have also been on steroids. Sticking to what is known, McGwire admitting to long-time steroid and HGH use, seems more logical to question his HR accomplishments and not Maris' as, at this point, there is not nearly as much reason to doubt Maris as there is to question true level of greatness of McGwire. Proposal of speculative questions about what would Maris have done against juiced pitchers does nothing to make McGwire's HRs totals seem, more legitimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Shoemaker
Exactly, who knows? So, perhaps people should leave Maris, and all other past players, out of the debate and focus only on what is known- that McGwire has admitted to using performance enhancers throughout a large part of his career including a season in which he hit at least 9 more HRs in a single season then any player ever. Speculation on what effect steroid use in 1961, including possible use by pitchers, may have had on Maris as nothing to do with what known steroid use may have had on McGwire in 1998. Smoke screens add nothing to the debate and do little to help McGwire.Quote:
Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan
No, I think a full grown adult who knowingly and willingly seeks out and uses an illegal substance is 100 percent to blame themselves. Now if they had a legitimate medical need for said substances then there was legitimate legal channels to take so no laws broken and no improper act or behavior. Ultimately people are bottom-line 100 percent responsible for the choices they make. There may often be extenuating circumstances, peer pressure, etc but one is always ultimately responsible for the decisions they make and the consequences they may have to face for wrong decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
Is Bud Selig responsible or not for the choices he made? How about Tony LaRussa?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoweryBoys
Wow, Jack Clark tell us how you really feel about steroid use in baseball! :happy:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4828816
How is Tony LaRussa responsible? Unless he specifically catches one of his players using steroids, all he could have are suspicions. Why would he not put guys in the lineup that would best help him win? Now if he knew about use, but did nothing, he'd be guilty by association. While I may not believe that Tony is telling the truth about what he knew about Mark McGwire, there's really no way to prove it one way or another unless someone rats them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
As far as Bud Selig goes, the only reason he got his position is because he and other owners forced Fay Vincent out of office. Selig does a good job of not stepping on the owners, though he probably does that too well. He fought the union for drug testing, which eventually resulted in the Mitchell Report and the heavy hand of Congress forcing drug testing on the union. As it stands, PED users get off relatively light unless they're stupid enough to be multiple offenders.
Jack Clark hit the nail on the head. I agree with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules
In agreement. It is the player, the one who made the choice, to blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace Venom
Whats the problem now, now no one is looking the other way now and some still use.
Pure nonsense, laying the blame on others.
Admitting or not admitting dosen't really matter. What matters is the enforcement of any rule breaker when found out. As major league baseball lies beneath the cloud of unenforceable rules. As a comparison: Marion Jones served a jail term for violating olympic rules of conduct by taking illegal substances. The same substances Mark McGwire and others in baseball have used and are continuing to use. The glaring difference is Mark McGwire is not in jail. Now, if only Marion Jones had been a member of the Baseball Players Union, she would have been protected and would not have been prosecuted. Marion had to give back her winning medals and her records were removed. Mark, in turn, was rewarded by being employed by the St. Louis Cardinals and none of his records were removed. What a sad change of events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace Venom
You make the claim that McGwire is the greatest HR hitter of all-time. I gather it is fair to assume you base your claim on McGwire having the best career HR/AB ratio all-time. That stat is a fact and you are certainly entitled to base any opinion on that you choose. Where you seriously weaken your credibility is in speculating that (you think) Gehrig's numbers were reduced by ALS as early as 1930 and if not for that (you think) he would have had greater numbers then Ruth. I assume that if others here speculate that they think that steroids played a big part in helping McGwire achieve that HR/AB ratio you would disagree vehemently and call it nothing but speculation. However, at least at this moment, there appears to be better reason to believe that steroids helped McGwire's HR/AB ratio then ALS reduced Gehrig's output as early as 1930. There is just too much double standard in this debate. To act like you think that McGwire would have hit 70 HR anyway even without steroids and then state that Gehrig would "surely" have hit 60+, like you know it as fact, does little to give any argument you make any credibility and only exposes bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight
Sticking to what we do know, by McGwire's own admission, he at least used steroids and HGH for a significant period throughout his career to at least try to play as many games as necessary. It is just common sense that without the number of ABs McGwire was able to have in seasons such as 1998 then 70 HRs in a single season would have been much harder to come by. In this way there is no denying that steroids likely did have some effect on McGwire and his ultimate career totals. If one chooses to deny that or claim that is just speculation then they must claim that there is no valid proof that steroids and HGH even help a player recover from injury and allow him to play more games when before he showed signs of breaking down. If one chooses to claim that steroids and HGH don't help in that regard then McGwire has to backpedal and come up with yet even another hopefully valid reason why he chose, post 1991, to make use of illegal substances.
Actually, I'm willing to bet that many posters here saw my logic in an analogy with Gehrig and Robinson. There were actually many others I could have mentioned but it is not worth the time. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. The bottom-line is that by McGwire's own admission he used PEDs for a significant part of his career. He claims in order to help him stay on the field more. Meanwhile he hits 9 more HRs then anyone was ever able to hit in a single season. People are free to believe what they want, including that he would have hit those 70 HRs even if he never saw a PED- even simply because they think he became a smarter or better hitter. I'm willing to bet the majority of equally intelligent and equally informed baseball fans do not buy that explanation.
Sure Bud Selig is responsible for the choices he makes in his life. Tony LaRussa as well. I don't know but when Tony got the DUI I believe he blamed only himself for his own action and choices- that is to his credit. As for Bud, last time I looked I have seen no proof that he held a gun to any grown adult MLB player's head and forced them to take steroids for any reason, let alone that owners told him to force players to use so they would make more money. And lets stop using the specious logic and intellectually dishonest arguments that the players had no choice because of a prevalent steroid culture in MLB- IT Was Players and Trainers Who Created That Culture. They are grown men who in most cases would know they were breaking federal laws- why do you think all the clandestine behavior. Placing the blame on anyone except players that chose to use is an invalid smoke screen and no more legitimate then blaming alcohol makers for those who choose to get drunk then drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
Who is making the argument that the players had no choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by BoweryBoys
Our society and our laws do in fact place blame for events on people that otherwise did not pull the trigger. For instance a bartender that serves an intoxicated person alcohol who then goes out and gets into an accident can be held at least partially responsible for that accident. If I provide you with a gun knowing that you are going to use it to rob a bank I am partially responsible for that crime.
So then it wasn't just the players?Quote:
IT Was Players and Trainers Who Created That Culture.
Tony knew that Jose was a steroid user. He was the one that outed him back in 89 or so and yet he continued to play him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace Venom
Marion Jones went to jail because she was found guilty of lying to federal investigators during an investigation. She did not go to jail because she used illegal substances.
Wow the use of smokescreens on this issue knows no end. It makes zero difference that illegal steroids are the type of substance that a player would likely have to receive and use through guidance and help of a trainer. It further makes zero difference if a trainer in a particular instance may be the one to instigate a players contact with PEDS and even suggest or introduce use. The bottom-line common sense truth that everyone here understands, smokescreens notwithstanding, is that the ultimate responsibility for following through and actually committing an act falls on the person who actually committed the act. In this case ingestion of steroids, whether taken orally, self-injected or having someone else inject. It is the ultimate choice of the player who has to give his consent or no actual act could possibly even be committed. (Unless someone here wants to throw in an even more outrageous smokescreen and say players were somehow injected unknowingly while asleep)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
The intellectually dishonest arguments using extremely specious logic do nothing to convince anyone that players should not shoulder the ultimate blame. I'm sure you understand the simple truth that regardless of anyone else who may also share some measure of blame for PEDS in baseball, each and every player who chose to ingest PEDS ultimately is 100 percent responsible for allowing the act of actual ingestion and use to occur. Each grown adult player of normal intelligence and full use of their facilities and freewill is responsible for the actual choice to enter chemicals in their bodies despite who else may also be deserving of some measure of blame for knowing and doing nothing. I'm sure you understand this just as you understand how flawed and invalid your analogies are. Yes, A Bartender can have some blame for allowing someone too much to drink. Yes, a person can be in trouble with the law for providing a gun to someone they know will commit a crime. Does any of that absolve in any way the full blame and responsibility that the person who gets behind the wheel drunk or the person who makes the conscience decision to actually pull the trigger for there individual choice and act? - of course not. Simple fact, truth, and reality. In the same way no matter who else shares blame in steroids in MLB, every player who chose to use holds 100 percent blame for their own individual action- also simple truth and fact.
uh no. she lied to the feds. thats what got her in jail. If she had told the truth, she would have been fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soxfan31
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoweryBoys
It's not a smoke screen. It is a simple fact that McGwire faced tougher competition from pitchers. Some maybe due to steroids. Others due to a simply increased talent pool. Others due to other "legitimate" medical advances such as TJ surgery or ligament enhancement surgery.
Here is the real smoke screen. The blame game and what a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan
A poster comparing a bartender who served an intoxicated person alcohol which may have resulted in an accident legally can be held partially responsible, compared to the following.
How was Tony partially responsible for Mac using steroids, did he supply him with steroids as the bartender supplied the person with alcohol.
Where is the comparison with a supplier to one who said nothing.
Do you know who used first, who started it all. Were you sitting in, some locker rooms. How do you know if Mac was using before or at the same time pitchers were using. You know, we all know that you have no idea when or where the useQuote:
Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan
started.
Is it possible that the hitters started it all and the pitchers were trying to level the playing field. At least I'll be honest, I don't know.
So I guess then Mac was not telling the truth, said he used to so that he could continue taking the field.