Sure I'm only one person, one fan but multiply that by millions of fans, millions who paid to watch these games, watch the players, it's not about being only one, millions of us paved the way for the big mess in the game.
I, like the rest of us on the board, fans everywhere all have our own problems in our personal lives, now I have to carry this burden, live with this guilt.
The players most likely will never see this post, but I'm going on record, my apology, to the game and especially to any player who may have suffered for my deeds.
I challenge all this board, the next time you speak about any player, suspect or a proven user...............before you condemn, look in the mirror, you share some of the guilt. I'm sorry.
Mea Maxima Culpa. :pray:
To answer questions about Big Mac without steroids, I decided to project his career numbers beyond 1989. This assumes that he does not miss time due to injury. By his own admission, he tried steroids in the 1989-90 offseason. Only his numbers up until the 1989 season are used in the projection using Bill James MLB Career Stat Projection Tool.
Projected Years After 1989: 8.5 (circa mid-1998)
At Bats: 6,269 (average of 543.5 per year)
Hits: 1,676 (29% chance to reach 2,000 with an average of 147 per year)
Doubles: 273 (39% chance to reach 300 with an average of 24.2 per year)
Triples: 20 (0% chance to reach 50 with an average of 1.8 per year)
Home Runs: 462 (40% chance at 500 with an average of 40.7 per year)
Walks: 868 (average 74.7 per year)
Strikeouts: 1,381 (average 120.2 per year)
Hit By Pitch: 49 (average 4.3 per year)
Sacrifice Flies: 83 (average 7.2 per year)
Total Bases: 3,375
Based on those numbers, his batting average, slugging percentage and on-base percentage can be projected.
Batting Average: .267
On-Base Percentage: .357
Slugging Percentage: .538
His final hit totals are overestimated, but McGwire also missed significant time in 1993 and 1994 due to injuries. It also doesn't take the 1994-95 strike into account either. Despite this, the projection is still fairly close as are the at-bats. The projected .267 batting average is thus a decent projection based on his early career and what he did with steroids. According to McGwire, steroids didn’t make him a better hitter. Based on batting average, it’s possible that they made him worse than his projected value in terms of pure average.
What’s most telling is the difference in power numbers through 1997. A projection to 1998 reveals that McGwire would have been projected to hit only 462 home runs in his career. Through 1997, McGwire only had 387 career home runs and his batting average (.260), hits (1,201) and doubles (198) were significantly below projected values. The addition of 1998 and 199 significantly boosted McGwire’s career totals in terms of power. Much of the problem that McGwire had was that he was dealing with injuries. It’s plausible that knowing what we do about steroids that McGwire’s injuries had some contribution from his steroid use.
What is projected is not a Hall of Famer. Anyone who questions whether or not McGwire belongs in the Hall of Fame can look at what was projected from 1989. McGwire did not have a great chance to reach 500 home runs (only 40%), but it’s possible that he might have reached 500 career home runs. When you take the strike into account, it makes McGwire's quest for 500 very unlikely. McGwire as projected would have needed 500 career home runs to receive Hall of Fame consideration. He had a chance at a fine career if he had never touched steroids, which is a tragedy by itself.
Mark McGwire completely changed his swing in the early 1990's. It was well documented at the time and it drastically altered what he could with a bat.
Wow, Jack Clark tell us how you really feel about steroid use in baseball! :happy:
As far as Bud Selig goes, the only reason he got his position is because he and other owners forced Fay Vincent out of office. Selig does a good job of not stepping on the owners, though he probably does that too well. He fought the union for drug testing, which eventually resulted in the Mitchell Report and the heavy hand of Congress forcing drug testing on the union. As it stands, PED users get off relatively light unless they're stupid enough to be multiple offenders.
Sticking to what we do know, by McGwire's own admission, he at least used steroids and HGH for a significant period throughout his career to at least try to play as many games as necessary. It is just common sense that without the number of ABs McGwire was able to have in seasons such as 1998 then 70 HRs in a single season would have been much harder to come by. In this way there is no denying that steroids likely did have some effect on McGwire and his ultimate career totals. If one chooses to deny that or claim that is just speculation then they must claim that there is no valid proof that steroids and HGH even help a player recover from injury and allow him to play more games when before he showed signs of breaking down. If one chooses to claim that steroids and HGH don't help in that regard then McGwire has to backpedal and come up with yet even another hopefully valid reason why he chose, post 1991, to make use of illegal substances.
Actually, I'm willing to bet that many posters here saw my logic in an analogy with Gehrig and Robinson. There were actually many others I could have mentioned but it is not worth the time. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. The bottom-line is that by McGwire's own admission he used PEDs for a significant part of his career. He claims in order to help him stay on the field more. Meanwhile he hits 9 more HRs then anyone was ever able to hit in a single season. People are free to believe what they want, including that he would have hit those 70 HRs even if he never saw a PED- even simply because they think he became a smarter or better hitter. I'm willing to bet the majority of equally intelligent and equally informed baseball fans do not buy that explanation.
Our society and our laws do in fact place blame for events on people that otherwise did not pull the trigger. For instance a bartender that serves an intoxicated person alcohol who then goes out and gets into an accident can be held at least partially responsible for that accident. If I provide you with a gun knowing that you are going to use it to rob a bank I am partially responsible for that crime.
So then it wasn't just the players?Quote:
IT Was Players and Trainers Who Created That Culture.
Marion Jones went to jail because she was found guilty of lying to federal investigators during an investigation. She did not go to jail because she used illegal substances.
The intellectually dishonest arguments using extremely specious logic do nothing to convince anyone that players should not shoulder the ultimate blame. I'm sure you understand the simple truth that regardless of anyone else who may also share some measure of blame for PEDS in baseball, each and every player who chose to ingest PEDS ultimately is 100 percent responsible for allowing the act of actual ingestion and use to occur. Each grown adult player of normal intelligence and full use of their facilities and freewill is responsible for the actual choice to enter chemicals in their bodies despite who else may also be deserving of some measure of blame for knowing and doing nothing. I'm sure you understand this just as you understand how flawed and invalid your analogies are. Yes, A Bartender can have some blame for allowing someone too much to drink. Yes, a person can be in trouble with the law for providing a gun to someone they know will commit a crime. Does any of that absolve in any way the full blame and responsibility that the person who gets behind the wheel drunk or the person who makes the conscience decision to actually pull the trigger for there individual choice and act? - of course not. Simple fact, truth, and reality. In the same way no matter who else shares blame in steroids in MLB, every player who chose to use holds 100 percent blame for their own individual action- also simple truth and fact.
It's not a smoke screen. It is a simple fact that McGwire faced tougher competition from pitchers. Some maybe due to steroids. Others due to a simply increased talent pool. Others due to other "legitimate" medical advances such as TJ surgery or ligament enhancement surgery.
A poster comparing a bartender who served an intoxicated person alcohol which may have resulted in an accident legally can be held partially responsible, compared to the following.
How was Tony partially responsible for Mac using steroids, did he supply him with steroids as the bartender supplied the person with alcohol.
Where is the comparison with a supplier to one who said nothing.
Is it possible that the hitters started it all and the pitchers were trying to level the playing field. At least I'll be honest, I don't know.
So I guess then Mac was not telling the truth, said he used to so that he could continue taking the field.