To Post Or Not To Post??

[tg643]

The statistical results in a short season may be very skewed by hitting a few line drives right at fielders or be subbed for and sitting out against Wesuck High where the player would have had at least two hits if not three or four.

My daughter (softball) always hated playing Wesuck High because the competition was terrible and she would get subbed out after batting twice in the first inning or at least after two innings. The game was a mercy all eight times over four years. One year her batting average started slowly by hitting ropes right at second, first and right. The coach made it up to her by letting her get five at bats against Wesuck High. She went 5-5. It certainly changed her stats. It didn't change how she was swinging the bat.

[tg643]

What's funny . . . is that there's only one guy here who feels he's able to demand quantitative definitions of others personal perceptions of the game, yet will toss out his negative unsupported perception of others willy-nilly.

Your personal "observations/opinions" of coaches are no more accurate or factual, than those same coaches "observations/opinions" of the game and/or their players . . . yet you still make these threads personal, when the rest of us are simply sharing our experiences/observations/opinions of the actual play of game, and our players.

It's getting quite old . . .

I've been around SK on boards for eight years. Without his stats the game would have no need for him. He refuses to believe in a short season a coach can visualize how his players are succeeding or not succeeding. I'll buy into stats big time at the MLB level where stats have a very small plus/minus factor range of error. But not in a fifteen to thirty game season.

[scorekeeper]

… Bottom line: IMO, your players play better and you win more games if you don't post stats.

Just goes to show ya the difference between us. I don’t give a flip about winning and losing. I just want the players to love the game and stay in it as long as possible.

But I would love to know how you’ve come to that conclusion. Since you don’t believe in posting stats, how do you know how a team would perform if you did? And if they did perform worse, and you did come to the conclusion it was because the stats were posted, wouldn’t you feel at all like a failure for not being able to instill in them a team spirit, enough to at least help them overcome playing for that name on the back rather than on the front of the jersey?

Sorry skip, trying to blame a poor team spirit on whether or not stats get posted sounds like a huge rationale of someone who feels the need to justify their actions.

[songtitle]

ummm... I wanted to win. Winning is fun.

[omg]

The bottom line when a coach evaluates a player: "Are they knockin' in more than they're lettin' in."

A kid batting .400 goes 2 for 4 and immediately gets the scorebook on the bus so he can start figuring out his ba. Kid is in hog heaven. Problem is, the kid has 9 passed balls, gives up 8 sb's and the team loses 4-3. But the kid thinks he's all-district.

This was a kid on my hs team. Coach finally moved him from c to dh and-bingo- we start winning.

[omg]

Rating
0 Batter swings and misses;takes a called third strike.
1 Foul ball
2 Pop fly
3 Routine fly ball
4 Ground ball, hump back line drive
5 Hard grounder, deep fly ball
6 Line drive or home run

[omg]

Offense

rbi 3
bh 1 (each base)
Reach
base error/hbp 1
run 1
steal 1
sac 2
advance
runnerto3rd 1
heads up
baserunning 1
gw hit 4

Defense

dp assist 1
pickoff assist 1
c throws out r 1
great play 2
of assist 2

Pitching

Victory 6
No er 6
1 er 5
No more than
3 er 4
K 1
Fewer than 12
p in inn. 1
No bb in inn 1
CG 6
Save 6

Negative Points

Called third s -2
Missed Signal -9
Error -2
PB -2
WP -2
Swinging K -1
BB (P) -1
Walk 1st b
in inn -3
HBP -1
Give up more
than 4 er -1
Fail to slide -3
Picked off -3
Picked off 3rd -6
General
Mental
Mistake -2

Total ?????

[scorekeeper]

ummm... I wanted to win. Winning is fun.

Of course it is for the participants. But the less “skin” one has in the game, the less winning means, and the more just enjoyment of the game and how it works has to do with it. Sometimes you folks forget that I have literally no skin in the games I score these days, other than the team I score for happens to be the closest HS to my house.

Of course after 5 years watching the same team and the same two coaches run it, I’d prefer it win rather than an opponent, but that’s it. I’m there purely because I love the game, its intricacies, and trying to figure out why things happen as they do.

[scorekeeper]

The bottom line when a coach evaluates a player: "Are they knockin' in more than they're lettin' in."

A kid batting .400 goes 2 for 4 and immediately gets the scorebook on the bus so he can start figuring out his ba. Kid is in hog heaven. Problem is, the kid has 9 passed balls, gives up 8 sb's and the team loses 4-3. But the kid thinks he's all-district.

This was a kid on my hs team. Coach finally moved him from c to dh and-bingo- we start winning.

And what have I ever said that differs in any way? All I say is, when that judgment is made, I’ve found perceptions don’t always match the facts in truth or degree.

[tg643]

Hi guys! I'm the scorekeeper at La Mancha High.

[scorekeeper]

Rating
0 Batter swings and misses;takes a called third strike.
1 Foul ball
2 Pop fly
3 Routine fly ball
4 Ground ball, hump back line drive
5 Hard grounder, deep fly ball
6 Line drive or home run

I’m not sure I understand you point here. Are you saying that as a coach you score every plate appearance that way? Assuming that’s true, I’m gonna use our game yesterday and see how “productive” our players were in the 2nd inning. My motto has always been, you never know the worth of something until you test it.

Player #28
Called strike – I don’t know what value it is because you don’t say anything about balls and strikes. So, I’m guessing its zero.
Ball – same as above
Out 4-3
Total 4

Player #53
Takes a ball
Hits a foul ball on a pitch he should have never swung at, but he gets a point anyway
Pulls line drive double
Total 7

Player #51
Takes a strike
Takes a ball
Swings and misses
Hits a foul ball
Hits a ground ball right at f5
Total 5

Player #12
Ball
Strike looking
Foul ball
Foul ball
Ball
Beats out a swinging bunt I suppose has to be scored as a ground ball
Total 6

Player #2
Takes strike 1
Hits a line drive
Total 6

Player #34
Ball
Strike
Ball
Ball
Humpback line drive
Total 4

Player #55
Strike
Ball
Routine fly ball
Total 3

So for that inning it would be:
28-4
53-7
51-5
12-6
2-6
34-4
55-3

Ok, what does it tell me? It looks like player #53 was easily the most “productive”, followed by players 12 and 2, and players 55, 28, and 34 were the least “productive” in the inning.

But what it doesn’t say, is that player 53 fell asleep at 2nd base and was erased by a poor throw behind him on a ground ball. It doesn’t say that player 34’s humpback line drive fell in, just in front of f9, and because he busted butt out of the box, was able to slide into 2nd with a pure “hustle double.

Am I saying your “productivity” guide isn’t any good? Heck no! What I’m saying is, you’re idea of how to measure productivity is not anything like mine is. To me, it has too many holes that allow too many things to fall through the cracks.

But, if it works for you. GREAT! If I was scoring for you and you asked me to track productivity your way, I would. But I would do my very best to convince you there was a “better” way, because I know from my experience with the numbers, that there are better ways.

[scorekeeper]

OMG,

If you’re saying you not only track productivity as in post #56, but all those things in post #57 as well, I bow to a superior stat wonk! I would love to see one of your scoresheets, and the program or spreadsheet you use. I thought what I did was waaaaay out there, but you make me look like a babe in the woods!

I know how long it takes me to glean the data I track out of the scoresheet, how long does it take you, and how do you keep from making data entry errors? I’ve programmed what seems like a billion validity checks into my program, but I still have lots of routines that double check the data for consistency, and still find errors. I can’t even conceive of what you must have set up to make sure your data is solid.

[tg643]

Scorekeepers tell you how they think the watch works. Coaches teach the kids how to tell time.

[Jake Patterson]

Scorekeepers tell you how they think the watch works. Coaches teach the kids how to tell time.

What???
Good scorekeepers tell you nothing. They simply provide numbers that allows a coach to better do his job. They provide numerical conclusions based on formulas not opinions. They tell you what not why.

PS: I believe there are few good scorekeepers at the youth level.

[omg]

OMG,

If you’re saying you not only track productivity as in post #56, but all those things in post #57 as well, I bow to a superior stat wonk! I would love to see one of your scoresheets, and the program or spreadsheet you use. I thought what I did was waaaaay out there, but you make me look like a babe in the woods!

I know how long it takes me to glean the data I track out of the scoresheet, how long does it take you, and how do you keep from making data entry errors? I’ve programmed what seems like a billion validity checks into my program, but I still have lots of routines that double check the data for consistency, and still find errors. I can’t even conceive of what you must have set up to make sure your data is solid.

The hitters productivity chart is something that was done at my college during fall ball in order to evaluate performance. At the end of the fall, a typical average might be something like 4.62 for a great hitter. In hs, I use the system for batting cage or bp games and for scrimmage games. Hitting a "six" becomes common terminology. Evaluating what number to give a hitter is easy.

The MVP chart is done in conjunction with regular scorekeeping. The scorekeeper and coach go from memory for some aspects of the chart. Another option is to have a player keep his own mvp chart so that he can understand true value as opposed to ba and era. A third option is to separate the pitcher's points from the position player's points so that the stud pitcher/ss doesn't run away things. A final option is to eliminate negative points so that kids don't get discouraged.

I truly believe in both charts. There is some subjectivity, which you may not like, but both charts are really summaries of how a coach thinks.

The charts come from Ron Polk's Mississippi State Baseball Playbook which has been around since 1975. As a coach, I have always had an excellent and valuable scorekeeper who may or may not be willing to do the extra work. Or I have done it or an assistant coach.

When I say I have had valuable scorekeepers I don't mean in terms of keeping yearly players' stats but valuable during the game. Quick with what this batter did last time, what pitch was thrown, what he did the previous game, how many pitches our pitcher has thrown, etc.

[scorekeeper]

What???
Good scorekeepers tell you nothing. They simply provide numbers that allows a coach to better do his job. They provide numerical conclusions based on formulas not opinions. They tell you what not why.

Thank you Jake! I think this is a perfect example of why there’s such a big battle over this. There are coaches like yourself who understand the simplicity of it, and there are coaches who make it much more complex than it is.

This is only a personal opinion based on limited observation and interaction with different coaches. It seems to me, the ones who are the most confident in their abilities, are the ones who are the least threatened by parents asking questions, and stats that simply show the truth of what’s taking place. Its almost like a defense mechanism to attack the numbers, and utterly ridiculous to attack the one providing them.

PS: I believe there are few good scorekeepers at the youth level.

I believe the same thing, but why do you suppose that is?

IMHO, many coaches see the SK as someone unimportant, because they say the numbers are unimportant, but then turn around and spew numbers to support themselves all the time. But here’s how it looks to me. A coach who chooses his assistant coaches wisely, will TEND to do the same with his SK. At the lower levels, coaches don’t TEND to be very experienced, and therefore those they choose to help them aren’t the best possible choices. There’s nothing stupid about it, its just inexperience.

[JJA]

I've just always been a fan of stats for several simple reasons. First, it helps me make sure as a coach I'm as unbiased as possible. As coaches, we all have favorite players for various reasons, and it's natural to see the games through these colored glasses. Statistics provide a means for helping to ensure that you're not overlooking someone, or if you're overrating someone. Statistics aren't a cure all for this as statistics are subject to interpretation of course, but it's a very good way for me personally to stay grounded.

Secondly, it's really helpful for dealing with parents. Parents watch the game and know if their little Billy had one less at-bat or one less inning than little Johnny. From that, they often conclude you're being unfair to their child. However, when you show them the season statistics that show how balanced the at-bats and innings played are (in the case of my teams at least), it really helps calm some parents down. Doesn't always work, but it usually does.

Why are youth scorekeepers typically not very good? In my experience, typically this is because they're volunteers who are doing the job because it's required by the league. Most I'm sure would prefer just watching the game, but volunteering for scorekeeper is viewed by some as being better than working in the snack shack or other volunteer duties. This is why I rely on my own stats, except in the few cases where the scorekeeper is good (which in my case actually has happened a couple of times).

-JJA

[tg643]

the ones who are the most confident in their abilities, are the ones who are the least threatened by parents asking questions, and stats that simply show the truth of what’s taking place

You absolutely don't get it. I'm not threatened by parents. But, most parents approach coaches for selfish means to benefit their own kids. And I will tell you for the bazillionth time on three boards stats in small numbers often lie. I don't need a .220 stat to explain why a player has been benched. I can see he's not swinging the bat well. I can see if a .220 hitter is roping the ball and hitting in bad luck. In the preteen years the only thing a parents should be discussing with the coach is what the kid can do to improve. When the kid hits the teens he should be asking those questions. Once a teen the only meaningful conversation a parent should have with a coach should be about college ball. Discusssions with parents on playing time and position are out of bounds. That's between the player and the coach. The player doesn't need mommy holding his hand and talking to the coach. By the teens it's time for the kid to grow up and have his own conversations with the coach. That some coaches will deal with parents about everything now is why parents now call college professors about grades and bosses about pay and promotion. There is now a generation of weenies who can't stand up for themselves.

they say the numbers are unimportant, but then turn around and spew numbers to support themselves all the time.

I don't know a good coach who would use stats in small numbers to support anything. You just want scorekeepers to have more relevance. If you do join up with a baseball program where the players are getting 200+ at bats. Then you can start to see some validity in the numbers.

Here's a good example of how stats lie. Last night someone said Papelbon has sucked this year. His ERA is 3.92. It hasn't been his best year. His blown save number is up. But he hasn't sucked. He's had five completely horrible outings out of about sixty. In those five outings he's allowed about fifteen runs in four innings. In his other fifty-five appearances his ERA is under 2.00. His WHIP and BAA are still solid numbers. If I'm Francona, unless I feel Papelbon is tired he's getting the ball in the 9th. There's no stat for tired. The manager and pitching coach can see it in his mechanics. The scorebook in the last few appearances may hint he's tired. But the manager can see it in mechanics and production.

As a fan I like stats. I prefer MLB stats due to they're not in small numbers. They're fun to look at. But when I scored for the high school team or coached I never saw anything that surprised me. It's because I saw every game.

[tg643]

Secondly, it's really helpful for dealing with parents. Parents watch the game and know if their little Billy had one less at-bat or one less inning than little Johnny. From that, they often conclude you're being unfair to their child. However, when you show them the season statistics that show how balanced the at-bats and innings played are (in the case of my teams at least), it really helps calm some parents down. Doesn't always work, but it usually does.

This isn't your responsibility. Coaches coach, player play, parents/fans support and watch. You don't need to explain your coaching decisions to whining parents. You will better serve the kid's coaches in the future if you teach the parents how to be parents of an athlete.

I have two kids. One has graduated from college. One is a senior in high school. The only relevant conversations I've had with coaches in thirty-six seasons of middle school, high school and college sports between the two kids were with high school coaches about playing in college and recruiting with college coaches. Anything else was very social where I was careful not to discuss my kids unless the coaches brought them up. There was never a need to interfere. Anything about improvement, position and playing time was discussed between the coach and my kids. I only advised my kids on how top handle some of the discussions.

I can't account for the preteen years. Except travel soccer I was always the coach. The only relevant conversation with the soccer coach was about getting my son to a goalie coach due to early signs of potential. My son was twelve. I waited until he was fifteen.

On the coaching side I never discussed playing time and position. In the preteen years I discussed drills parents could do with kids to help improve their play. Starting at thirteen those discussions were with the players. I set the rules before the season. I expected the parents to follow them. There were very few parental problems. Being commissioner of a league is a parental nightmare.

[JJA]

This isn't your responsibility. Coaches coach, player play, parents/fans support and watch. You don't need to explain your coaching decisions to whining parents. You will better serve the kid's coaches in the future if you teach the parents how to be parents of an athlete.

Yeah, that's one approach. But given that the vast majority of LL kids don't play high school baseball/fastpitch, it doesn't particularly bother me that I'm talking with the parents on these issues. Few parents are really going to be "parents of an athlete" by the time they reach high school. To me it's no different than parents talking with a teacher about their children's progress in the classroom. But your approach is certainly a viable one, and without question the most popular one among coaches in our area.

Yes, personally I've never talked to a coach about playing time for either of my kids all the way through high school. I want my kids to learn to stand on their own, and doing this on the athletic field is an important first step in this process. But I'm in the vast minority here, and in there is no question in some ways this has hurt my kids. The squeaky wheel really does get the grease, especially in high school athletics at our high school.

-JJA

[mudvnine]

A coach who chooses his assistant coaches wisely, will TEND to do the same with his SK. At the lower levels, coaches don’t TEND to be very experienced, and therefore those they choose to help them aren’t the best possible choices. There’s nothing stupid about it, its just inexperience.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just choosing. Many/most parents or fans that are good SKers simply just don't want to do it; as they would rather just watch the game and their kid(s), without having to worry about watching each and every pitch, but instead, talk with other parents, wander to the snack stand, or simply not to be bothered by it each and every game.

Let me ask you this . . . if YOU weren't scoring for your local HS coach, who would you turn to and hand the book to? Would that person tabulate any stats for the team, or would he or she simply hand the book back to the coach at the end of the game?

You seem to forget that there is a BIG difference between having a scorekeeper versus a statistician. Even when I "choose" the very best SKer out there (and I've had several very good ones), all they have ever given me is an accounting of the game in its objective form, and then I had to extract the information from the book.

Given that my time is consumed with coaching and teaching the game, and building my knowledge base to improve upon that aspect of it, I find little time to sit down and try to learn and create a whole new system of dealing with the numbers. Heck, I don't even have the software capable of accumulating the various stats that you consider important, so I'm left with only the very "basics" that the currently available, commercial programs spit out.

I would venture to say that most, if not all HS coaches and below are faced with the same dilemma . . . while we may like and want all of the stats, the ability of us actually obtaining them as slim to none, and we work simply work with the time and information that he have.


JMO obviously,
mud -

[mudvnine]

Yes, personally I've never talked to a coach about playing time for either of my kids all the way through high school. I want my kids to learn to stand on their own, and doing this on the athletic field is an important first step in this process. But I'm in the vast minority here, and in there is no question in some ways this has hurt my kids. The squeaky wheel really does get the grease, especially in high school athletics at our high school.

-JJA

JJA, that's too bad you feel that way about coaches at the HS level . . however in that case, I feel the blame lies 100% with the coach on that matter for responding in kind to those types of discussions.

There are still some coaches out there where "squeaky wheels" are just that, "squeaky wheels" . . . a bit annoying, but they don't affect the performance, or way we drive the car down the road.

While I will speak to a "concerned" parent any time after a game or practice on any subject, if they wish . . . when it comes to playing time, I have found that it is usually the parent and not the player who have the biggest concern(s).

Over the years, I have found that the players for the most part, know who should be in there and who should not, and the greatest majority of the time, their opinions are really no different then the coaches.

So when a parent approaches me about playing time, my answer is always pretty much the same . . .

"Mr A.,

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions on the matter, however, the players all know what is expected of them to secure playing time and I can assure you that . . .

Option 1 . . . your son and I have talked about what he can do to get more innings (if the player and I have actually discussed it)

Option 2 . . . I would be more than happy to speak with your son about it, if and when he comes to me about it (if the player hasn't already asked).

It's been my experience, that in these situations, I find it best if the parent discuss the expectations and possible changes with their son, as the player already knows, or should know, what he needs to do to receive more playing time.

I will however, tell him of your concern at next our practice and see if he's willing or able to make the necessary changes. I thank you for your thoughts; is there anything else that I can help you with?"

After that, the parent's typical response is, "Oh, oh, you don't have to say anything to Jimmy, I'm sure he knows what he needs to do to get more playing time. He hasn't said anything to me, but I know he wants to get in there more, so I just thought I would ask." . . .

You can bet it was parent who was more concerned and not understanding of the situation, more so then the player.

[tg643]

Many/most parents or fans that are good SKers simply just don't want to do it

I scored for the high school team for one year. Never again. Too much being approached during games about the current play, approached over the previous box score and emails and phone calls at home over scoring decisions. If I kept the emails and documented the discussions you would see how much a majority of parents don't know about proper scoring of plays. They think like LL scorers. When in doubt I gave the benefit to the home team and it wasn't enough. Parents cc'ed the head coach on every email. The coach saw parents snapping at me.

The coach got so fed up with the situation he put the book back in the dugout. I didn't want to be in the dugout. He gave the book to a girl/team manager who doesn't know a double from a two base throwing error. Plus she's flirting with the bench players rather than watching the game. The stats got so screwed up parents went nuts. The coach took the stats offline. He told the players they could have their own at the end of the season even though the stats were garbage. My son hit .524. The stats had him in the mid .600's. Some players stats were in the other direction when they got credit for outs made by their substitutes. The newspaper box scores were a joke unless the sportswriter was at the game.

[azmatsfan]

Not having experience yet with HS ball today, who generally keeps score for official stats. Or is it up to each team to track their own stats? If so, how accurate are HS stats going to be?

[scorekeeper]

JJA,

You’ve pretty much put things in the same perspective I see them. You realize that there’s at least a good chance that perceptions and gut feelings won’t be correct, and do what you can to mitigate it. You’re not saying the numbers are everything, but rather that they’re a good tool. Bravo!

As far as the parents go, I’ve found that its much less likely that someone’s looking for trouble as opposed to just looking for information. Where their children are concerned, fairness has a lot more to do with it than what many coaches believe.

I think another reason scoring isn’t very good across the board, is that as easy as it is, and as much as people think they can do it correctly, they really can’t. For sure it’s a rare player in the dugout who can do it very well, then to make things worse, they’re at least a bit distracted, plus they have very strong motivation to “fudge”.

It’s the same with parents, but the fudge factor’s never really bothered me. It the scorers who don’t know the difference between a WP and a PB, or a double and a single with an error. And having done it for so long, I can say that without exception, you can’t do a good job scoring and chit chat at the same time. It requires close attention. Scoring is something you can be only 95% right on and still have a great product, but when it gets much worse than that, its really difficult to count on the product.