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Thread: To Post Or Not To Post??

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    Not having experience yet with HS ball today, who generally keeps score for official stats. Or is it up to each team to track their own stats? If so, how accurate are HS stats going to be?
    Each team keeps their own stats. A player could be 1-4 getting on base on two errors in one dugout and 3-4 in the other. There really is nothing official about the stats. You could have a baseball person who knows rules on one side of the field and girl who never even played softball on the other side. Teams tend to give huge benefit of the doubt to their own players. One time I saw the box score in the paper the head coach had changed a correct call I made eliminating four earned runs for his pitcher (It's not an error when the fielder takes too long making the play and doesn't bobble the ball). The kid ended up leading the league in ERA due to the coach's change.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just choosing. Many/most parents or fans that are good SKers simply just don't want to do it; as they would rather just watch the game and their kid(s), without having to worry about watching each and every pitch, but instead, talk with other parents, wander to the snack stand, or simply not to be bothered by it each and every game.

    Let me ask you this . . . if YOU weren't scoring for your local HS coach, who would you turn to and hand the book to? Would that person tabulate any stats for the team, or would he or she simply hand the book back to the coach at the end of the game?
    You keep making the mistake of lumping me in with every other SK you’ve ever met, and you keep making a mistake there. I train players, I train parents, and everyone know that all they have to do is show an interest and I’ll be there to help them. Right now we have at least 4 other people who I would turn the book over to with no hesitation at all.

    Whether or not they’d do the stats is something else again. I seriously doubt that any would do it to the extent I do, but then again, I know of no one who would, so that’s to be expected. But whether or not any of those 4 do the “normal” stats is something very different. Of the 15-20 parents that show up at most or every HS game, I’m gonna guess that at minimum, half would enter the stats into MaxPreps if they were asked. That requires literally no tabulating of any kind. All one has to do is have about 20 minutes and enter the numbers.

    You seem to forget that there is a BIG difference between having a scorekeeper versus a statistician. Even when I "choose" the very best SKer out there (and I've had several very good ones), all they have ever given me is an accounting of the game in its objective form, and then I had to extract the information from the book.
    I don’t forget anything of the sort! I’m telling you that at least for the level I score for, there are parents who would help out in a heartbeat! I talk to those folks every game, plus I communicate with a number of them away from the game as well, but more importantly, I listen! I listen to what they say in the bleachers, and hear the stories and the chitchat, and I’m telling you that every single year there’s at least a couple folks who equate the stats to getting a college scholarship or being drafted, and they’d do anything in their power to help make sure the stats get done.

    How many times have you actually sat down with any of the parents, not in a group, explained how important you think the stats might be for the team and the players, then asked if they’d help you with them? Its like any other thing people need help with. If you aren’t willing to explain the situation, and ask for help, its unlikely you’ll get it. That’s just the way life is.

    Given that my time is consumed with coaching and teaching the game, and building my knowledge base to improve upon that aspect of it, I find little time to sit down and try to learn and create a whole new system of dealing with the numbers. Heck, I don't even have the software capable of accumulating the various stats that you consider important, so I'm left with only the very "basics" that the currently available, commercial programs spit out.
    Well, I’ve told you before that I’d gladly give anyone my program free of charge and with absolutely no strings attached. But I’m a realist. I know that most people would look at it and run screaming from the room without even giving it a chance, never once understanding that I’m basically the laziest guy in the world, and have spent many many hours tinkering with that program to make it as easy as possible to use, and more importantly put in many things to help insure the data is valid.

    I’ve even gone so far as to offer to have the scoresheets sent to me and I’d put in an entire season’s data! And if you think its difficult going through a scorebook to get the “normal” stats, you should see me pulling out my hair looking through other people’s books! I’ll do it again. Either send me all of you scoresheets for last season, or scan them in and e-mail them to me, and I do what I can over the next few weeks. If your season was 30 games long, I’d guess I’d be done in a week or so.

    I would venture to say that most, if not all HS coaches and below are faced with the same dilemma . . . while we may like and want all of the stats, the ability of us actually obtaining them as slim to none, and we work simply work with the time and information that he have.
    I get it! I really do! There are some very difficult dynamics going one with this. It’s a job not everyone wants to do, but that doesn’t mean it’s a job no one wants to do. Its like everything else too, and a lot depends on how its approached.

    The year I was our LLI league’s Official Scorer, I really did everything I could to help team scorers, just learn how to keep score, and believe me, it was a job that I literally spent every night of the week sitting with the scorers to help them get the change of it.

    We only had 10 ML and MiL teams in our league, and I only did it for one season, but out of the 10 team scorers, 6 eventually up scoring for their boy’s HS team, and one scored for his boy’s JUCO team, and the DII school he spent his last 2 years playing for. So its not as though its isn’t possible get people to do it, but its not something that’s a passive thing.

    Like everything else, its all in the situation, and for sure how its approached. Here’s another option HS coach’s have, but I’ve only seen 1 take advantage of. This fellow actually advertised at his school for a team scorer. He got the principal to ok allowing the scorer to use his time for his community service obligation he needed for graduation, and he got 4 kids apply in the 1st week. 1 was a kid that had been cut, but still love the game and came to most of the games anyway.

    I was asked to help him learn how to keep score and enter the numbers into MaxPreps. Luckily, his school played most of its games on days my team’s school didn’t, and I was able to get him up and running in just a couple weeks. The kid got his credit, and the coach awarded him a special letter, and I thought it was fantastic. But for some reason, other coaches aren’t interested, even though it’s a perfectly viable way to deal with the issue.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    You keep making the mistake of lumping me in with every other SK you’ve ever met, and you keep making a mistake there. I train players, I train parents, and everyone know that all they have to do is show an interest and I’ll be there to help them. Right now we have at least 4 other people who I would turn the book over to with no hesitation at all.
    How did you ever interpret what I wrote above, as lumping you in "with every other SK (I’ve) ever met? I simply told you of what I've experienced in trying to get a score keeper, and then asked you a question about your experience.

    Get over yourself already . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Whether or not they’d do the stats is something else again. I seriously doubt that any would do it to the extent I do, but then again, I know of no one who would, so that’s to be expected. But whether or not any of those 4 do the “normal” stats is something very different. Of the 15-20 parents that show up at most or every HS game, I’m gonna guess that at minimum, half would enter the stats into MaxPreps if they were asked. That requires literally no tabulating of any kind. All one has to do is have about 20 minutes and enter the numbers.
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the OP, but I asked the question about sharing stats with the players and not the Internet nation . . . much less the parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I don’t forget anything of the sort! I’m telling you that at least for the level I score for, there are parents who would help out in a heartbeat! I talk to those folks every game, plus I communicate with a number of them away from the game as well, but more importantly, I listen! I listen to what they say in the bleachers, and hear the stories and the chitchat, and I’m telling you that every single year there’s at least a couple folks who equate the stats to getting a college scholarship or being drafted, and they’d do anything in their power to help make sure the stats get done.
    I hope that you informed them as to how ridiculous of an assumption that is . . . unless you're under that false belief also.

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    How many times have you actually sat down with any of the parents, not in a group, explained how important you think the stats might be for the team and the players, then asked if they’d help you with them? Its like any other thing people need help with. If you aren’t willing to explain the situation, and ask for help, its unlikely you’ll get it. That’s just the way life is.
    I'm not saying that I can't get a SKer, but I'm looking for someone who's willing to do something with what they've just scored . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Well, I’ve told you before that I’d gladly give anyone my program free of charge and with absolutely no strings attached. But I’m a realist. I know that most people would look at it and run screaming from the room without even giving it a chance, never once understanding that I’m basically the laziest guy in the world, and have spent many many hours tinkering with that program to make it as easy as possible to use, and more importantly put in many things to help insure the data is valid.
    If you remember, I did take you up on your offer, and did just that . . . ran "screaming from the room" when I couldn't get it to run . . . remember these two emails you sent me after I couldn't get your program to run?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7/21/09
    I hope my progam didn't piss you off by smokin' your hard drive!
    Quote Originally Posted by 7/22/09
    Don’t worry about whether or not that thing works for you. To tell the truth, I doubt that you’d want to use it for your stuff on a regular basis, but it might be kinda fun to play with to see some of the things you might want to try to do on your own.
    You yourself doubted that I'd want to use it, that I interpreted to mean the numbers from it weren't really all the necessary or important, but now you imply that I'm somehow foolish that I have not.

    Kinda wish you'd stick to at least one story . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I’ve even gone so far as to offer to have the scoresheets sent to me and I’d put in an entire season’s data! And if you think its difficult going through a scorebook to get the “normal” stats, you should see me pulling out my hair looking through other people’s books! I’ll do it again. Either send me all of you scoresheets for last season, or scan them in and e-mail them to me, and I do what I can over the next few weeks. If your season was 30 games long, I’d guess I’d be done in a week or so.
    Thanks for the offer, but what good will last year's number do me, I won't have same players and makeup on this year's team?

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Like everything else, its all in the situation, and for sure how its approached. Here’s another option HS coach’s have, but I’ve only seen 1 take advantage of. This fellow actually advertised at his school for a team scorer. He got the principal to ok allowing the scorer to use his time for his community service obligation he needed for graduation, and he got 4 kids apply in the 1st week. 1 was a kid that had been cut, but still love the game and came to most of the games anyway.
    That was my plan for this year . . . and if needed as an incentive, even offer the kid the opportunity to practice with the team to continue to improve on his skills, if he really wanted to stay in and around the game and try to make a team the following year.
    Last edited by mudvnine; 09-22-2010 at 05:33 PM.

  4. #79
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    there’s at least a couple folks who equate the stats to getting a college scholarship or being drafted,

    These are people who don't know the process. Stats may raise an eyebrow. But the scouts and coaches still want to see the tools in person.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    The hitters productivity chart is something that was done at my college during fall ball in order to evaluate performance. At the end of the fall, a typical average might be something like 4.62 for a great hitter. In hs, I use the system for batting cage or bp games and for scrimmage games. Hitting a "six" becomes common terminology. Evaluating what number to give a hitter is easy.
    I wasn’t at all saying your productivity chart was a bad idea! In fact, I think it’s a great idea, but one that has lots of holes in it and could be “tightened up” fairly easily.

    I don’t have trouble believing you use it, but rather how difficult it would be to do that, considering every single pitch has to be monitored so closely. I know how difficult it is to do that when that’s all there is to do. I can’t imagine doing it while trying to be doing all the things a coach is doing too.

    The MVP chart is done in conjunction with regular scorekeeping. The scorekeeper and coach go from memory for some aspects of the chart. Another option is to have a player keep his own mvp chart so that he can understand true value as opposed to ba and era. A third option is to separate the pitcher's points from the position player's points so that the stud pitcher/ss doesn't run away things. A final option is to eliminate negative points so that kids don't get discouraged.
    When you say MVP chart, I’m assuming you’re talking about post #57. This isn’t a knock because sometimes I have to rely on memory when I forget to mark something, but which aspects are you talking about?

    Which option do you use, or do you use all four?

    I truly believe in both charts. There is some subjectivity, which you may not like, but both charts are really summaries of how a coach thinks.
    I hate subjectivity, but only when it can be easily replaced by objectivity. FI, “head’s up base running”. On its face it sounds totally subjective, but it really isn’t, as long as its defined. And, it can be defined any way you’d like. Once its defined, anyone can determine it and mark it on a scoresheet. Same with a “great play”. A great play sounds subjective, but all it really is, is an extraordinary play. Heck, there’s a great definition of what “Ordinary Effort” is in OBR, and that could easily be used as your definition.

    Well, without much effort at all, I could convert my scoring “style” to accommodate the productivity chart so that it would a done deal and part of any “normal” stats coming out of the book. As I said before, I think it has way too many holes in it to be considered as a GREAT metric, but its definitely better than nothing, and certainly as good as some other metrics out there already.

    As for your “MVP” chart, I suppose its as good as any other way I’ve ever seen to do something similar. The main trouble I have with it is that the weights it gives certain things isn’t justified by anything I know. But if those are the things that you as a coach feel make a player valuable, then that’s the way it is. I just can’t imagine going through a scoresheet pulling out some of that stuff though. Now some of it would be a cinch, but others make me shudder to think of how difficult they’d be to pull from a “normal” scoresheet.

    There are a couple of issues when this kind of think is tried. One is, is it really valid, and the other is, does it really help the person using it. If it really helps, it really doesn’t matter if its valid. But if it isn’t really valid, it means it could help a heck of a lot more.

    Before I made a judgment, I wanted to get a better idea about what was going on, so I gave my best effort over the last 4 days to see what I could come up with. If you look at the attachment, You’ll see I followed your criteria pretty well, and documented where I couldn’t.

    There’s batting points, pitching points, defensive points, and then there’s negative points that come from all 3 of the groups. Then I totaled them to get a final number which I assume is supposed to list the players in terms of how “valuable” they were to the team. If you look at the last page, you’ll see my version of much the same thing, except that I call mine “Contributions”. As you can see, we approach the challenge very differently in that we define “value” differently.

    The charts come from Ron Polk's Mississippi State Baseball Playbook which has been around since 1975. As a coach, I have always had an excellent and valuable scorekeeper who may or may not be willing to do the extra work. Or I have done it or an assistant coach.
    As I said earlier, if its valuable to you, I say good on ya. But, I can say with absolute certainty that the criteria that’s being used, and the values assigned to them could easily be “improved”. Here’s an example. In the criteria, both a walk and a HBP are each assigned a negative 1 for the pitchers. But on top of the negative 1, any pitcher who walks the 1st batter in an inning gets popped –3 points for each of them. I completely understand that, but I don’t understand why a pitcher that hits the 1st batter in an inning isn’t also popped 3 points.

    To me, its little things like that that make any metric. Depending on what one does with that metric, it might be important to make sure that at least every factor that gives a positive, also has an offsetting negative.

    Since you say you’ve done it, how much time does it take to pull that data out of a scoresheet, and how do you compile it? For those things that I came up with, now that I’ve done the initial programming, I could reproduce that report without changing one thing I do when scoring a game. Is that how your final report is made? What do you do with that report, and when do you create it? After each game for that game only, for each game of the season accumulated up to that time, all games for all seasons, or all 3 or any other combination?

    When I say I have had valuable scorekeepers I don't mean in terms of keeping yearly players' stats but valuable during the game. Quick with what this batter did last time, what pitch was thrown, what he did the previous game, how many pitches our pitcher has thrown, etc.
    What you’re describing isn’t really a scorekeeper per se. What you’re describing is more of a bench coach to me. While I could tell you what a batter did the last time he was up, and could surely give you a pitch count, IMHO that other stuff couldn’t be done by someone and still pay enough attention to the game to score it properly.

    Heck, I can’t get all the things I need to do done well, and at the same time run a scoreboard that only tracks balls, strikes, runs, and innings, let alone even think of what it’d be like to try to look up what players did in past games, and chart pitches and locations as well. So whatever you call that person, if s/he does everything you say they do, and keeps score as well, I sure hope you’re paying them more than the hot dog and Coke I get at home games.
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  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I wasn’t at all saying your productivity chart was a bad idea! In fact, I think it’s a great idea, but one that has lots of holes in it and could be “tightened up” fairly easily.

    I don’t have trouble believing you use it, but rather how difficult it would be to do that, considering every single pitch has to be monitored so closely. I know how difficult it is to do that when that’s all there is to do. I can’t imagine doing it while trying to be doing all the things a coach is doing too.

    I would not measure every pitch -if you are doing a game-but rather every ball put in play-or a strikeout. The point is the general idea of a hitter's productivity chart. You can adjust it as you see fit.


    When you say MVP chart, I’m assuming you’re talking about post #57. This isn’t a knock because sometimes I have to rely on memory when I forget to mark something, but which aspects are you talking about?

    Which option do you use, or do you use all four?

    I separate pitching from position playing/hitting. I only post, say the top 5, or just post the top 3 for a particular game.

    I hate subjectivity, but only when it can be easily replaced by objectivity. FI, “head’s up base running”. On its face it sounds totally subjective, but it really isn’t, as long as its defined. And, it can be defined any way you’d like. Once its defined, anyone can determine it and mark it on a scoresheet. Same with a “great play”. A great play sounds subjective, but all it really is, is an extraordinary play. Heck, there’s a great definition of what “Ordinary Effort” is in OBR, and that could easily be used as your definition.

    Well, without much effort at all, I could convert my scoring “style” to accommodate the productivity chart so that it would a done deal and part of any “normal” stats coming out of the book. As I said before, I think it has way too many holes in it to be considered as a GREAT metric, but its definitely better than nothing, and certainly as good as some other metrics out there already.

    As for your “MVP” chart, I suppose its as good as any other way I’ve ever seen to do something similar. The main trouble I have with it is that the weights it gives certain things isn’t justified by anything I know. But if those are the things that you as a coach feel make a player valuable, then that’s the way it is. I just can’t imagine going through a scoresheet pulling out some of that stuff though. Now some of it would be a cinch, but others make me shudder to think of how difficult they’d be to pull from a “normal” scoresheet.

    Right. I've adjusted the various weights myself. Again, the point is the general idea.

    There are a couple of issues when this kind of think is tried. One is, is it really valid, and the other is, does it really help the person using it. If it really helps, it really doesn’t matter if its valid. But if it isn’t really valid, it means it could help a heck of a lot more.

    A coach doen't necessarily need it but I believe it is valuable for players. And if you give out an MVP it is valuable

    Before I made a judgment, I wanted to get a better idea about what was going on, so I gave my best effort over the last 4 days to see what I could come up with. If you look at the attachment, You’ll see I followed your criteria pretty well, and documented where I couldn’t.

    I looked at it and it's very interesting. Tell me about Howard Johnson.

    There’s batting points, pitching points, defensive points, and then there’s negative points that come from all 3 of the groups. Then I totaled them to get a final number which I assume is supposed to list the players in terms of how “valuable” they were to the team. If you look at the last page, you’ll see my version of much the same thing, except that I call mine “Contributions”. As you can see, we approach the challenge very differently in that we define “value” differently.

    In an individual game, i would not give credit for no er AND less than 4 er. Couldn't tell whether you did or not.

    As I said earlier, if its valuable to you, I say good on ya. But, I can say with absolute certainty that the criteria that’s being used, and the values assigned to them could easily be “improved”. Here’s an example. In the criteria, both a walk and a HBP are each assigned a negative 1 for the pitchers. But on top of the negative 1, any pitcher who walks the 1st batter in an inning gets popped –3 points for each of them. I completely understand that, but I don’t understand why a pitcher that hits the 1st batter in an inning isn’t also popped 3 points.

    Right-I would change that, too.

    To me, its little things like that that make any metric. Depending on what one does with that metric, it might be important to make sure that at least every factor that gives a positive, also has an offsetting negative.

    Since you say you’ve done it, how much time does it take to pull that data out of a scoresheet, and how do you compile it? For those things that I came up with, now that I’ve done the initial programming, I could reproduce that report without changing one thing I do when scoring a game. Is that how your final report is made? What do you do with that report, and when do you create it? After each game for that game only, for each game of the season accumulated up to that time, all games for all seasons, or all 3 or any other combination?

    After my first 2 years of coaching I have been blessed to have someone else do it. Do it after each game.You must include things like outstanding defensive plays because a guy that makes a sliding catch may have taken away a double from the other team. He may have gone 0 for but really "hit" a double-really more than a double because he recorded an out as well. As i said, i post the top guys so as not to hurt feelings.

    What you’re describing isn’t really a scorekeeper per se. What you’re describing is more of a bench coach to me. While I could tell you what a batter did the last time he was up, and could surely give you a pitch count, IMHO that other stuff couldn’t be done by someone and still pay enough attention to the game to score it properly.

    It is difficult but doable- when I'm without the guy that can do this we lose an advantage.

    Heck, I can’t get all the things I need to do done well, and at the same time run a scoreboard that only tracks balls, strikes, runs, and innings, let alone even think of what it’d be like to try to look up what players did in past games, and chart pitches and locations as well. So whatever you call that person, if s/he does everything you say they do, and keeps score as well, I sure hope you’re paying them more than the hot dog and Coke I get at home games.

    They were worth more than I gave.
    Ok, i make my comments above in bold. Not sure if you have ever heard of Ron Polk-the guy that wrote the 2 methods-but basically he taught Buck Showalter much of what he knows.
    Last edited by omg; 09-24-2010 at 03:31 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    Ok, i make my comments above in bold. Not sure if you have ever heard of Ron Polk-the guy that wrote the 2 methods-but basically he taught Buck Showalter much of what he knows.
    I got it.

    I don’t know much about Ron Polk, but I’ve certainly heard the name.

    I would not measure every pitch -if you are doing a game-but rather every ball put in play-or a strikeout. The point is the general idea of a hitter's productivity chart. You can adjust it as you see fit.
    Well, for sure every tool is whatever the user makes it, so if it works for you, that’s fine. What I meant was, when you look at all the possible points, in order to really be accurate, you have to look at much more than BIPs, or at least I would. You see, much of what I do, is try to prove/disprove GENERAL things because to me that could mean the same thing as “gut feelings”. Its not that I don’t believe in them, but I don’t’ believe in their accuracy.

    I separate pitching from position playing/hitting. I only post, say the top 5, or just post the top 3 for a particular game.
    Ahhh. That’s the way I’d guessed you were doing it, but I wanted to make sure. What you’re doing is much of what I do when I send the after game package to the coaches. All you’re doing is presenting the data in a different format.

    Right. I've adjusted the various weights myself. Again, the point is the general idea.
    Again, for me the GENERAL idea wouldn’t be good enough, but that’s me. As for the weights, they only matter in that they show your basic philosophy.

    A coach doen't necessarily need it but I believe it is valuable for players. And if you give out an MVP it is valuable
    LOL! I won’t even go into what a coach does or doesn’t need. But, when it comes to giving out an MVP, I’d question if that’s what you’re really doing. I’d say its how YOU perceive an MVP, but it certainly isn’t how I’d see it. But since you’re the one giving out the award, all that matters is how you see it.

    I looked at it and it's very interesting. Tell me about Howard Johnson.
    HOJO was a 3 year V player. He was an exception catcher, but only an average hitter at best. He could have easily been a pitcher, and did pitch occasionally. He had an absolute cannon, as many base runners found out. His last 2 years, his 1st year he threw out 13 of 26. The next year only 3 runners attempted to steal, and he got 2 of them. His last season, we had an extremely young group of pitchers, and as you know, runners steal on pitchers, not catchers, and he only got 2 of 17. But overall, he kept all but the very very best runners from even thinking about it.

    I don’t know what else you want to know. Are you asking because of the way the MVP points computed? If you did, you prolly got caught because longevity plays so much of a part in doing these things. That’s why if you look closely at the “Contributions” thing I did, Rather than use raw numbers alone, I tried to use percentages to take some of the “edge” off. It doesn’t work completely, but it does help.

    In an individual game, i would not give credit for no er AND less than 4 er. Couldn't tell whether you did or not.
    Now I’m confused. Are you saying you totaled the points? I though you were only doing it by game.

    As far as the no ER and LT4ER, how else can you do the points if not by game?

    Right-I would change that, too.
    That’s really all I’m saying when I talk about “tightening it up”. Its really nothing more than tweaking the algorithm. I do it all the time when I see something isn’t working correctly.

    After my first 2 years of coaching I have been blessed to have someone else do it. Do it after each game.You must include things like outstanding defensive plays because a guy that makes a sliding catch may have taken away a double from the other team. He may have gone 0 for but really "hit" a double-really more than a double because he recorded an out as well. As i said, i post the top guys so as not to hurt feelings.
    I totally understand! Our coach does things like that as well, and its my understanding he uses them in his “discussions” with the boys after games, to make sure plays that weren’t ordinary, both good an bad, are recognized and discussed so the rest of the players understand why they happened.

    It is difficult but doable- when I'm without the guy that can do this we lose an advantage.
    Maybe some day we can go into that in more depth.

    They were worth more than I gave.
    Let me tell ya about how us numbers wonks work. If you find someone who’s willing to do these things, I assure you its for no there reason than pure love of doing it. Each year at the banquet, I get a little something, and its always great appreciated. One year it was a barb-b-que for the wife and I. Another year I got a pin, another I got an engraved pen, and last year was prolly the best. Our program didn’t end up with a lot of $$$$ in the purse, and my gift was a very nicely written personal note from the coach. I’ll never tell anyone what it said, but it sure meant a lot to me. Here’s the gist of it. My coach knows he has my total respect, and it was very plain by what he said, that I have his. That’s how teams are put together.

    What I’m saying is, if he knows you have his respect, I’m pretty sure that’s all the payment that’s necessary.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    North Georgia
    Posts
    215
    Quote Originally Posted by tg643 View Post
    Once a teen the only meaningful conversation a parent should have with a coach should be about college ball. Discusssions with parents on playing time and position are out of bounds. That's between the player and the coach. The player doesn't need mommy holding his hand and talking to the coach. By the teens it's time for the kid to grow up and have his own conversations with the coach. That some coaches will deal with parents about everything now is why parents now call college professors about grades and bosses about pay and promotion. There is now a generation of weenies who can't stand up for themselves.
    This is BS and offesive. I will not get into a discussion in this tread about this but will state for any parent who is reading this... just because you are involved with your child doesn't make you a bad parent nor will it cause your child to grow up to be any less "manly" or a weenie.
    Last edited by dw8man; 09-30-2010 at 07:00 PM.

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    5,434
    Quote Originally Posted by dw8man View Post
    This is BS and offesive. I will not get into a discussion in this tread about this but will state for any parent who is reading this... just because you are involved with your child doesn't make you a bad parent nor will it cause your child to grow up to be any less "manly" or a weenie.
    "Dw8" . . . it all depends on how you define "involved with you child" . . .

    If "involved" means talking with your teenager about dealing with adversity and giving him/her the tools to approach the coach in a confident, respectful, and appropriate manner . . . than "yes", that is the proper parental "involvement".

    If "involved" means not going to all of the practices, observing the team dynamics, and seeing for yourself as to why certain decisions are made, yet then going to the coach to petition playing time for a player who more than likely already knows how playing time is determined . . . than "no", that is NOT the proper parental "involvement".

    Of course, at least IMO . . .

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ca
    Posts
    6,937
    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    …If "involved" means not going to all of the practices, observing the team dynamics, and seeing for yourself as to why certain decisions are made, yet then going to the coach to petition playing time for a player who more than likely already knows how playing time is determined . . . than "no", that is NOT the proper parental "involvement".
    Yes, everything depends on the situation. And it sure would be nice if every situation fit nicely into one of the two scenarios you described, because it would be a whole lot easier to understand and deal with. Unfortunately, there are other scenarios. I happened to fall into one, and its my understanding that it isn’t at all unusual. Closed practices.

    I loved to go to practices! I had to go there anyway to pick him up and get him home, so I’d get there at 2:30 rather than 6:00PM. Then suddenly the head coach decided he didn’t want parents anywhere around during practices. At 1st I laughed about it, and just went over an watched the girls practice or Play SB for a while, then just changed my focus over to the baseball field.

    But then it dawned on me what was happening. I was being treated like the enemy, when I’d done nothing, so I went and had a little talk with the principal. She called in the AD and the coach, and it turned out that the coach had gotten tired of spending too much time dealing with parents at practices, and just pulled the plug. When asked if I had ever talked to him or any player during a practice he said, “No, but …”, and that’s all it took.

    I was asked to leave the office and told I’d be contacted the next day, and I was. Turns out the coach had overreacted because he couldn’t deal well with disruptive parents. Practices were once more “open”, and he and the AD dealt with the offending parents, and left the rest of us alone. But of the 3or 4 of us who had been given the boot, no one else said a word, other than to piss and moan about it in the stands. They were worried that their actions would bring retribution down on their sons, so they became exactly the kinds of problem parents nobody wants around! I haven’t any idea how often that general scenario plays itself out, but it isn’t exactly unheard of.

    But all that aside, I was one of the fortunate dads as far as those things go. I was retired, so I had loads of time on my hands, and that’s rare for a baseball dad. Many parents would love to do what you suggest, but aren’t in any position to do so, so how are they going to find out anything? They can wait for their kids to tell them something, but they better not hold their breath waiting. And chances are, when Jr tells them anything, its not exactly a verbatim, non-biased or non-judgmental explanation, with many words of more than one syllable.

    There are some programs where the coach actually “communicates” with the parents on a regular basis, but its much more likely that anytime a parent really wants to know something, the only viable option they see is, “Hey Coach, why is …”.

    The bottom line is, there’s no perfect answer that will work in every possible situation, so things will always have to be somehow “worked out”. Hopefully all parties will do that in an adult manner, but that won’t always happen. When it doesn’t, who’s to blame? Is it ALWAYS the parent, ALWAYS the coach, or is it something else?
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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