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Thread: To Post Or Not To Post??

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    Rating
    0 Batter swings and misses;takes a called third strike.
    1 Foul ball
    2 Pop fly
    3 Routine fly ball
    4 Ground ball, hump back line drive
    5 Hard grounder, deep fly ball
    6 Line drive or home run
    I’m not sure I understand you point here. Are you saying that as a coach you score every plate appearance that way? Assuming that’s true, I’m gonna use our game yesterday and see how “productive” our players were in the 2nd inning. My motto has always been, you never know the worth of something until you test it.

    Player #28
    Called strike – I don’t know what value it is because you don’t say anything about balls and strikes. So, I’m guessing its zero.
    Ball – same as above
    Out 4-3
    Total 4

    Player #53
    Takes a ball
    Hits a foul ball on a pitch he should have never swung at, but he gets a point anyway
    Pulls line drive double
    Total 7

    Player #51
    Takes a strike
    Takes a ball
    Swings and misses
    Hits a foul ball
    Hits a ground ball right at f5
    Total 5

    Player #12
    Ball
    Strike looking
    Foul ball
    Foul ball
    Ball
    Beats out a swinging bunt I suppose has to be scored as a ground ball
    Total 6

    Player #2
    Takes strike 1
    Hits a line drive
    Total 6

    Player #34
    Ball
    Strike
    Ball
    Ball
    Humpback line drive
    Total 4

    Player #55
    Strike
    Ball
    Routine fly ball
    Total 3

    So for that inning it would be:
    28-4
    53-7
    51-5
    12-6
    2-6
    34-4
    55-3

    Ok, what does it tell me? It looks like player #53 was easily the most “productive”, followed by players 12 and 2, and players 55, 28, and 34 were the least “productive” in the inning.

    But what it doesn’t say, is that player 53 fell asleep at 2nd base and was erased by a poor throw behind him on a ground ball. It doesn’t say that player 34’s humpback line drive fell in, just in front of f9, and because he busted butt out of the box, was able to slide into 2nd with a pure “hustle double.

    Am I saying your “productivity” guide isn’t any good? Heck no! What I’m saying is, you’re idea of how to measure productivity is not anything like mine is. To me, it has too many holes that allow too many things to fall through the cracks.

    But, if it works for you. GREAT! If I was scoring for you and you asked me to track productivity your way, I would. But I would do my very best to convince you there was a “better” way, because I know from my experience with the numbers, that there are better ways.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  2. #62
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    OMG,

    If you’re saying you not only track productivity as in post #56, but all those things in post #57 as well, I bow to a superior stat wonk! I would love to see one of your scoresheets, and the program or spreadsheet you use. I thought what I did was waaaaay out there, but you make me look like a babe in the woods!

    I know how long it takes me to glean the data I track out of the scoresheet, how long does it take you, and how do you keep from making data entry errors? I’ve programmed what seems like a billion validity checks into my program, but I still have lots of routines that double check the data for consistency, and still find errors. I can’t even conceive of what you must have set up to make sure your data is solid.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  3. #63
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    Scorekeepers tell you how they think the watch works. Coaches teach the kids how to tell time.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tg643 View Post
    Scorekeepers tell you how they think the watch works. Coaches teach the kids how to tell time.
    What???
    Good scorekeepers tell you nothing. They simply provide numbers that allows a coach to better do his job. They provide numerical conclusions based on formulas not opinions. They tell you what not why.

    PS: I believe there are few good scorekeepers at the youth level.
    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    OMG,

    If you’re saying you not only track productivity as in post #56, but all those things in post #57 as well, I bow to a superior stat wonk! I would love to see one of your scoresheets, and the program or spreadsheet you use. I thought what I did was waaaaay out there, but you make me look like a babe in the woods!

    I know how long it takes me to glean the data I track out of the scoresheet, how long does it take you, and how do you keep from making data entry errors? I’ve programmed what seems like a billion validity checks into my program, but I still have lots of routines that double check the data for consistency, and still find errors. I can’t even conceive of what you must have set up to make sure your data is solid.
    The hitters productivity chart is something that was done at my college during fall ball in order to evaluate performance. At the end of the fall, a typical average might be something like 4.62 for a great hitter. In hs, I use the system for batting cage or bp games and for scrimmage games. Hitting a "six" becomes common terminology. Evaluating what number to give a hitter is easy.

    The MVP chart is done in conjunction with regular scorekeeping. The scorekeeper and coach go from memory for some aspects of the chart. Another option is to have a player keep his own mvp chart so that he can understand true value as opposed to ba and era. A third option is to separate the pitcher's points from the position player's points so that the stud pitcher/ss doesn't run away things. A final option is to eliminate negative points so that kids don't get discouraged.

    I truly believe in both charts. There is some subjectivity, which you may not like, but both charts are really summaries of how a coach thinks.

    The charts come from Ron Polk's Mississippi State Baseball Playbook which has been around since 1975. As a coach, I have always had an excellent and valuable scorekeeper who may or may not be willing to do the extra work. Or I have done it or an assistant coach.

    When I say I have had valuable scorekeepers I don't mean in terms of keeping yearly players' stats but valuable during the game. Quick with what this batter did last time, what pitch was thrown, what he did the previous game, how many pitches our pitcher has thrown, etc.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    What???
    Good scorekeepers tell you nothing. They simply provide numbers that allows a coach to better do his job. They provide numerical conclusions based on formulas not opinions. They tell you what not why.
    Thank you Jake! I think this is a perfect example of why there’s such a big battle over this. There are coaches like yourself who understand the simplicity of it, and there are coaches who make it much more complex than it is.

    This is only a personal opinion based on limited observation and interaction with different coaches. It seems to me, the ones who are the most confident in their abilities, are the ones who are the least threatened by parents asking questions, and stats that simply show the truth of what’s taking place. Its almost like a defense mechanism to attack the numbers, and utterly ridiculous to attack the one providing them.

    PS: I believe there are few good scorekeepers at the youth level.
    I believe the same thing, but why do you suppose that is?

    IMHO, many coaches see the SK as someone unimportant, because they say the numbers are unimportant, but then turn around and spew numbers to support themselves all the time. But here’s how it looks to me. A coach who chooses his assistant coaches wisely, will TEND to do the same with his SK. At the lower levels, coaches don’t TEND to be very experienced, and therefore those they choose to help them aren’t the best possible choices. There’s nothing stupid about it, its just inexperience.
    Last edited by scorekeeper; 09-22-2010 at 01:28 PM.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  7. #67
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    I've just always been a fan of stats for several simple reasons. First, it helps me make sure as a coach I'm as unbiased as possible. As coaches, we all have favorite players for various reasons, and it's natural to see the games through these colored glasses. Statistics provide a means for helping to ensure that you're not overlooking someone, or if you're overrating someone. Statistics aren't a cure all for this as statistics are subject to interpretation of course, but it's a very good way for me personally to stay grounded.

    Secondly, it's really helpful for dealing with parents. Parents watch the game and know if their little Billy had one less at-bat or one less inning than little Johnny. From that, they often conclude you're being unfair to their child. However, when you show them the season statistics that show how balanced the at-bats and innings played are (in the case of my teams at least), it really helps calm some parents down. Doesn't always work, but it usually does.

    Why are youth scorekeepers typically not very good? In my experience, typically this is because they're volunteers who are doing the job because it's required by the league. Most I'm sure would prefer just watching the game, but volunteering for scorekeeper is viewed by some as being better than working in the snack shack or other volunteer duties. This is why I rely on my own stats, except in the few cases where the scorekeeper is good (which in my case actually has happened a couple of times).

    -JJA
    Last edited by JJA; 09-22-2010 at 09:23 AM.

  8. #68
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    the ones who are the most confident in their abilities, are the ones who are the least threatened by parents asking questions, and stats that simply show the truth of what’s taking place

    You absolutely don't get it. I'm not threatened by parents. But, most parents approach coaches for selfish means to benefit their own kids. And I will tell you for the bazillionth time on three boards stats in small numbers often lie. I don't need a .220 stat to explain why a player has been benched. I can see he's not swinging the bat well. I can see if a .220 hitter is roping the ball and hitting in bad luck. In the preteen years the only thing a parents should be discussing with the coach is what the kid can do to improve. When the kid hits the teens he should be asking those questions. Once a teen the only meaningful conversation a parent should have with a coach should be about college ball. Discusssions with parents on playing time and position are out of bounds. That's between the player and the coach. The player doesn't need mommy holding his hand and talking to the coach. By the teens it's time for the kid to grow up and have his own conversations with the coach. That some coaches will deal with parents about everything now is why parents now call college professors about grades and bosses about pay and promotion. There is now a generation of weenies who can't stand up for themselves.

    they say the numbers are unimportant, but then turn around and spew numbers to support themselves all the time.

    I don't know a good coach who would use stats in small numbers to support anything. You just want scorekeepers to have more relevance. If you do join up with a baseball program where the players are getting 200+ at bats. Then you can start to see some validity in the numbers.

    Here's a good example of how stats lie. Last night someone said Papelbon has sucked this year. His ERA is 3.92. It hasn't been his best year. His blown save number is up. But he hasn't sucked. He's had five completely horrible outings out of about sixty. In those five outings he's allowed about fifteen runs in four innings. In his other fifty-five appearances his ERA is under 2.00. His WHIP and BAA are still solid numbers. If I'm Francona, unless I feel Papelbon is tired he's getting the ball in the 9th. There's no stat for tired. The manager and pitching coach can see it in his mechanics. The scorebook in the last few appearances may hint he's tired. But the manager can see it in mechanics and production.

    As a fan I like stats. I prefer MLB stats due to they're not in small numbers. They're fun to look at. But when I scored for the high school team or coached I never saw anything that surprised me. It's because I saw every game.

  9. #69
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    Secondly, it's really helpful for dealing with parents. Parents watch the game and know if their little Billy had one less at-bat or one less inning than little Johnny. From that, they often conclude you're being unfair to their child. However, when you show them the season statistics that show how balanced the at-bats and innings played are (in the case of my teams at least), it really helps calm some parents down. Doesn't always work, but it usually does.

    This isn't your responsibility. Coaches coach, player play, parents/fans support and watch. You don't need to explain your coaching decisions to whining parents. You will better serve the kid's coaches in the future if you teach the parents how to be parents of an athlete.

    I have two kids. One has graduated from college. One is a senior in high school. The only relevant conversations I've had with coaches in thirty-six seasons of middle school, high school and college sports between the two kids were with high school coaches about playing in college and recruiting with college coaches. Anything else was very social where I was careful not to discuss my kids unless the coaches brought them up. There was never a need to interfere. Anything about improvement, position and playing time was discussed between the coach and my kids. I only advised my kids on how top handle some of the discussions.

    I can't account for the preteen years. Except travel soccer I was always the coach. The only relevant conversation with the soccer coach was about getting my son to a goalie coach due to early signs of potential. My son was twelve. I waited until he was fifteen.

    On the coaching side I never discussed playing time and position. In the preteen years I discussed drills parents could do with kids to help improve their play. Starting at thirteen those discussions were with the players. I set the rules before the season. I expected the parents to follow them. There were very few parental problems. Being commissioner of a league is a parental nightmare.
    Last edited by tg643; 09-22-2010 at 10:18 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tg643 View Post
    This isn't your responsibility. Coaches coach, player play, parents/fans support and watch. You don't need to explain your coaching decisions to whining parents. You will better serve the kid's coaches in the future if you teach the parents how to be parents of an athlete.
    Yeah, that's one approach. But given that the vast majority of LL kids don't play high school baseball/fastpitch, it doesn't particularly bother me that I'm talking with the parents on these issues. Few parents are really going to be "parents of an athlete" by the time they reach high school. To me it's no different than parents talking with a teacher about their children's progress in the classroom. But your approach is certainly a viable one, and without question the most popular one among coaches in our area.

    Yes, personally I've never talked to a coach about playing time for either of my kids all the way through high school. I want my kids to learn to stand on their own, and doing this on the athletic field is an important first step in this process. But I'm in the vast minority here, and in there is no question in some ways this has hurt my kids. The squeaky wheel really does get the grease, especially in high school athletics at our high school.

    -JJA

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    A coach who chooses his assistant coaches wisely, will TEND to do the same with his SK. At the lower levels, coaches don’t TEND to be very experienced, and therefore those they choose to help them aren’t the best possible choices. There’s nothing stupid about it, its just inexperience.
    Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just choosing. Many/most parents or fans that are good SKers simply just don't want to do it; as they would rather just watch the game and their kid(s), without having to worry about watching each and every pitch, but instead, talk with other parents, wander to the snack stand, or simply not to be bothered by it each and every game.

    Let me ask you this . . . if YOU weren't scoring for your local HS coach, who would you turn to and hand the book to? Would that person tabulate any stats for the team, or would he or she simply hand the book back to the coach at the end of the game?

    You seem to forget that there is a BIG difference between having a scorekeeper versus a statistician. Even when I "choose" the very best SKer out there (and I've had several very good ones), all they have ever given me is an accounting of the game in its objective form, and then I had to extract the information from the book.

    Given that my time is consumed with coaching and teaching the game, and building my knowledge base to improve upon that aspect of it, I find little time to sit down and try to learn and create a whole new system of dealing with the numbers. Heck, I don't even have the software capable of accumulating the various stats that you consider important, so I'm left with only the very "basics" that the currently available, commercial programs spit out.

    I would venture to say that most, if not all HS coaches and below are faced with the same dilemma . . . while we may like and want all of the stats, the ability of us actually obtaining them as slim to none, and we work simply work with the time and information that he have.


    JMO obviously,
    mud -

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJA View Post
    Yes, personally I've never talked to a coach about playing time for either of my kids all the way through high school. I want my kids to learn to stand on their own, and doing this on the athletic field is an important first step in this process. But I'm in the vast minority here, and in there is no question in some ways this has hurt my kids. The squeaky wheel really does get the grease, especially in high school athletics at our high school.

    -JJA
    JJA, that's too bad you feel that way about coaches at the HS level . . however in that case, I feel the blame lies 100% with the coach on that matter for responding in kind to those types of discussions.

    There are still some coaches out there where "squeaky wheels" are just that, "squeaky wheels" . . . a bit annoying, but they don't affect the performance, or way we drive the car down the road.

    While I will speak to a "concerned" parent any time after a game or practice on any subject, if they wish . . . when it comes to playing time, I have found that it is usually the parent and not the player who have the biggest concern(s).

    Over the years, I have found that the players for the most part, know who should be in there and who should not, and the greatest majority of the time, their opinions are really no different then the coaches.

    So when a parent approaches me about playing time, my answer is always pretty much the same . . .

    "Mr A.,

    Thank you for your thoughts and opinions on the matter, however, the players all know what is expected of them to secure playing time and I can assure you that . . .

    Option 1 . . . your son and I have talked about what he can do to get more innings (if the player and I have actually discussed it)

    Option 2 . . . I would be more than happy to speak with your son about it, if and when he comes to me about it (if the player hasn't already asked).

    It's been my experience, that in these situations, I find it best if the parent discuss the expectations and possible changes with their son, as the player already knows, or should know, what he needs to do to receive more playing time.

    I will however, tell him of your concern at next our practice and see if he's willing or able to make the necessary changes. I thank you for your thoughts; is there anything else that I can help you with?"
    After that, the parent's typical response is, "Oh, oh, you don't have to say anything to Jimmy, I'm sure he knows what he needs to do to get more playing time. He hasn't said anything to me, but I know he wants to get in there more, so I just thought I would ask." . . .

    You can bet it was parent who was more concerned and not understanding of the situation, more so then the player.
    Last edited by mudvnine; 09-22-2010 at 12:41 PM.

  13. #73
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    Many/most parents or fans that are good SKers simply just don't want to do it

    I scored for the high school team for one year. Never again. Too much being approached during games about the current play, approached over the previous box score and emails and phone calls at home over scoring decisions. If I kept the emails and documented the discussions you would see how much a majority of parents don't know about proper scoring of plays. They think like LL scorers. When in doubt I gave the benefit to the home team and it wasn't enough. Parents cc'ed the head coach on every email. The coach saw parents snapping at me.

    The coach got so fed up with the situation he put the book back in the dugout. I didn't want to be in the dugout. He gave the book to a girl/team manager who doesn't know a double from a two base throwing error. Plus she's flirting with the bench players rather than watching the game. The stats got so screwed up parents went nuts. The coach took the stats offline. He told the players they could have their own at the end of the season even though the stats were garbage. My son hit .524. The stats had him in the mid .600's. Some players stats were in the other direction when they got credit for outs made by their substitutes. The newspaper box scores were a joke unless the sportswriter was at the game.
    Last edited by tg643; 09-22-2010 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #74
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    Not having experience yet with HS ball today, who generally keeps score for official stats. Or is it up to each team to track their own stats? If so, how accurate are HS stats going to be?

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    JJA,

    You’ve pretty much put things in the same perspective I see them. You realize that there’s at least a good chance that perceptions and gut feelings won’t be correct, and do what you can to mitigate it. You’re not saying the numbers are everything, but rather that they’re a good tool. Bravo!

    As far as the parents go, I’ve found that its much less likely that someone’s looking for trouble as opposed to just looking for information. Where their children are concerned, fairness has a lot more to do with it than what many coaches believe.

    I think another reason scoring isn’t very good across the board, is that as easy as it is, and as much as people think they can do it correctly, they really can’t. For sure it’s a rare player in the dugout who can do it very well, then to make things worse, they’re at least a bit distracted, plus they have very strong motivation to “fudge”.

    It’s the same with parents, but the fudge factor’s never really bothered me. It the scorers who don’t know the difference between a WP and a PB, or a double and a single with an error. And having done it for so long, I can say that without exception, you can’t do a good job scoring and chit chat at the same time. It requires close attention. Scoring is something you can be only 95% right on and still have a great product, but when it gets much worse than that, its really difficult to count on the product.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by azmatsfan View Post
    Not having experience yet with HS ball today, who generally keeps score for official stats. Or is it up to each team to track their own stats? If so, how accurate are HS stats going to be?
    Each team keeps their own stats. A player could be 1-4 getting on base on two errors in one dugout and 3-4 in the other. There really is nothing official about the stats. You could have a baseball person who knows rules on one side of the field and girl who never even played softball on the other side. Teams tend to give huge benefit of the doubt to their own players. One time I saw the box score in the paper the head coach had changed a correct call I made eliminating four earned runs for his pitcher (It's not an error when the fielder takes too long making the play and doesn't bobble the ball). The kid ended up leading the league in ERA due to the coach's change.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just choosing. Many/most parents or fans that are good SKers simply just don't want to do it; as they would rather just watch the game and their kid(s), without having to worry about watching each and every pitch, but instead, talk with other parents, wander to the snack stand, or simply not to be bothered by it each and every game.

    Let me ask you this . . . if YOU weren't scoring for your local HS coach, who would you turn to and hand the book to? Would that person tabulate any stats for the team, or would he or she simply hand the book back to the coach at the end of the game?
    You keep making the mistake of lumping me in with every other SK you’ve ever met, and you keep making a mistake there. I train players, I train parents, and everyone know that all they have to do is show an interest and I’ll be there to help them. Right now we have at least 4 other people who I would turn the book over to with no hesitation at all.

    Whether or not they’d do the stats is something else again. I seriously doubt that any would do it to the extent I do, but then again, I know of no one who would, so that’s to be expected. But whether or not any of those 4 do the “normal” stats is something very different. Of the 15-20 parents that show up at most or every HS game, I’m gonna guess that at minimum, half would enter the stats into MaxPreps if they were asked. That requires literally no tabulating of any kind. All one has to do is have about 20 minutes and enter the numbers.

    You seem to forget that there is a BIG difference between having a scorekeeper versus a statistician. Even when I "choose" the very best SKer out there (and I've had several very good ones), all they have ever given me is an accounting of the game in its objective form, and then I had to extract the information from the book.
    I don’t forget anything of the sort! I’m telling you that at least for the level I score for, there are parents who would help out in a heartbeat! I talk to those folks every game, plus I communicate with a number of them away from the game as well, but more importantly, I listen! I listen to what they say in the bleachers, and hear the stories and the chitchat, and I’m telling you that every single year there’s at least a couple folks who equate the stats to getting a college scholarship or being drafted, and they’d do anything in their power to help make sure the stats get done.

    How many times have you actually sat down with any of the parents, not in a group, explained how important you think the stats might be for the team and the players, then asked if they’d help you with them? Its like any other thing people need help with. If you aren’t willing to explain the situation, and ask for help, its unlikely you’ll get it. That’s just the way life is.

    Given that my time is consumed with coaching and teaching the game, and building my knowledge base to improve upon that aspect of it, I find little time to sit down and try to learn and create a whole new system of dealing with the numbers. Heck, I don't even have the software capable of accumulating the various stats that you consider important, so I'm left with only the very "basics" that the currently available, commercial programs spit out.
    Well, I’ve told you before that I’d gladly give anyone my program free of charge and with absolutely no strings attached. But I’m a realist. I know that most people would look at it and run screaming from the room without even giving it a chance, never once understanding that I’m basically the laziest guy in the world, and have spent many many hours tinkering with that program to make it as easy as possible to use, and more importantly put in many things to help insure the data is valid.

    I’ve even gone so far as to offer to have the scoresheets sent to me and I’d put in an entire season’s data! And if you think its difficult going through a scorebook to get the “normal” stats, you should see me pulling out my hair looking through other people’s books! I’ll do it again. Either send me all of you scoresheets for last season, or scan them in and e-mail them to me, and I do what I can over the next few weeks. If your season was 30 games long, I’d guess I’d be done in a week or so.

    I would venture to say that most, if not all HS coaches and below are faced with the same dilemma . . . while we may like and want all of the stats, the ability of us actually obtaining them as slim to none, and we work simply work with the time and information that he have.
    I get it! I really do! There are some very difficult dynamics going one with this. It’s a job not everyone wants to do, but that doesn’t mean it’s a job no one wants to do. Its like everything else too, and a lot depends on how its approached.

    The year I was our LLI league’s Official Scorer, I really did everything I could to help team scorers, just learn how to keep score, and believe me, it was a job that I literally spent every night of the week sitting with the scorers to help them get the change of it.

    We only had 10 ML and MiL teams in our league, and I only did it for one season, but out of the 10 team scorers, 6 eventually up scoring for their boy’s HS team, and one scored for his boy’s JUCO team, and the DII school he spent his last 2 years playing for. So its not as though its isn’t possible get people to do it, but its not something that’s a passive thing.

    Like everything else, its all in the situation, and for sure how its approached. Here’s another option HS coach’s have, but I’ve only seen 1 take advantage of. This fellow actually advertised at his school for a team scorer. He got the principal to ok allowing the scorer to use his time for his community service obligation he needed for graduation, and he got 4 kids apply in the 1st week. 1 was a kid that had been cut, but still love the game and came to most of the games anyway.

    I was asked to help him learn how to keep score and enter the numbers into MaxPreps. Luckily, his school played most of its games on days my team’s school didn’t, and I was able to get him up and running in just a couple weeks. The kid got his credit, and the coach awarded him a special letter, and I thought it was fantastic. But for some reason, other coaches aren’t interested, even though it’s a perfectly viable way to deal with the issue.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    You keep making the mistake of lumping me in with every other SK you’ve ever met, and you keep making a mistake there. I train players, I train parents, and everyone know that all they have to do is show an interest and I’ll be there to help them. Right now we have at least 4 other people who I would turn the book over to with no hesitation at all.
    How did you ever interpret what I wrote above, as lumping you in "with every other SK (I’ve) ever met? I simply told you of what I've experienced in trying to get a score keeper, and then asked you a question about your experience.

    Get over yourself already . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Whether or not they’d do the stats is something else again. I seriously doubt that any would do it to the extent I do, but then again, I know of no one who would, so that’s to be expected. But whether or not any of those 4 do the “normal” stats is something very different. Of the 15-20 parents that show up at most or every HS game, I’m gonna guess that at minimum, half would enter the stats into MaxPreps if they were asked. That requires literally no tabulating of any kind. All one has to do is have about 20 minutes and enter the numbers.
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the OP, but I asked the question about sharing stats with the players and not the Internet nation . . . much less the parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I don’t forget anything of the sort! I’m telling you that at least for the level I score for, there are parents who would help out in a heartbeat! I talk to those folks every game, plus I communicate with a number of them away from the game as well, but more importantly, I listen! I listen to what they say in the bleachers, and hear the stories and the chitchat, and I’m telling you that every single year there’s at least a couple folks who equate the stats to getting a college scholarship or being drafted, and they’d do anything in their power to help make sure the stats get done.
    I hope that you informed them as to how ridiculous of an assumption that is . . . unless you're under that false belief also.

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    How many times have you actually sat down with any of the parents, not in a group, explained how important you think the stats might be for the team and the players, then asked if they’d help you with them? Its like any other thing people need help with. If you aren’t willing to explain the situation, and ask for help, its unlikely you’ll get it. That’s just the way life is.
    I'm not saying that I can't get a SKer, but I'm looking for someone who's willing to do something with what they've just scored . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Well, I’ve told you before that I’d gladly give anyone my program free of charge and with absolutely no strings attached. But I’m a realist. I know that most people would look at it and run screaming from the room without even giving it a chance, never once understanding that I’m basically the laziest guy in the world, and have spent many many hours tinkering with that program to make it as easy as possible to use, and more importantly put in many things to help insure the data is valid.
    If you remember, I did take you up on your offer, and did just that . . . ran "screaming from the room" when I couldn't get it to run . . . remember these two emails you sent me after I couldn't get your program to run?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7/21/09
    I hope my progam didn't piss you off by smokin' your hard drive!
    Quote Originally Posted by 7/22/09
    Don’t worry about whether or not that thing works for you. To tell the truth, I doubt that you’d want to use it for your stuff on a regular basis, but it might be kinda fun to play with to see some of the things you might want to try to do on your own.
    You yourself doubted that I'd want to use it, that I interpreted to mean the numbers from it weren't really all the necessary or important, but now you imply that I'm somehow foolish that I have not.

    Kinda wish you'd stick to at least one story . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I’ve even gone so far as to offer to have the scoresheets sent to me and I’d put in an entire season’s data! And if you think its difficult going through a scorebook to get the “normal” stats, you should see me pulling out my hair looking through other people’s books! I’ll do it again. Either send me all of you scoresheets for last season, or scan them in and e-mail them to me, and I do what I can over the next few weeks. If your season was 30 games long, I’d guess I’d be done in a week or so.
    Thanks for the offer, but what good will last year's number do me, I won't have same players and makeup on this year's team?

    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Like everything else, its all in the situation, and for sure how its approached. Here’s another option HS coach’s have, but I’ve only seen 1 take advantage of. This fellow actually advertised at his school for a team scorer. He got the principal to ok allowing the scorer to use his time for his community service obligation he needed for graduation, and he got 4 kids apply in the 1st week. 1 was a kid that had been cut, but still love the game and came to most of the games anyway.
    That was my plan for this year . . . and if needed as an incentive, even offer the kid the opportunity to practice with the team to continue to improve on his skills, if he really wanted to stay in and around the game and try to make a team the following year.
    Last edited by mudvnine; 09-22-2010 at 06:33 PM.

  19. #79
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    there’s at least a couple folks who equate the stats to getting a college scholarship or being drafted,

    These are people who don't know the process. Stats may raise an eyebrow. But the scouts and coaches still want to see the tools in person.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by omg View Post
    The hitters productivity chart is something that was done at my college during fall ball in order to evaluate performance. At the end of the fall, a typical average might be something like 4.62 for a great hitter. In hs, I use the system for batting cage or bp games and for scrimmage games. Hitting a "six" becomes common terminology. Evaluating what number to give a hitter is easy.
    I wasn’t at all saying your productivity chart was a bad idea! In fact, I think it’s a great idea, but one that has lots of holes in it and could be “tightened up” fairly easily.

    I don’t have trouble believing you use it, but rather how difficult it would be to do that, considering every single pitch has to be monitored so closely. I know how difficult it is to do that when that’s all there is to do. I can’t imagine doing it while trying to be doing all the things a coach is doing too.

    The MVP chart is done in conjunction with regular scorekeeping. The scorekeeper and coach go from memory for some aspects of the chart. Another option is to have a player keep his own mvp chart so that he can understand true value as opposed to ba and era. A third option is to separate the pitcher's points from the position player's points so that the stud pitcher/ss doesn't run away things. A final option is to eliminate negative points so that kids don't get discouraged.
    When you say MVP chart, I’m assuming you’re talking about post #57. This isn’t a knock because sometimes I have to rely on memory when I forget to mark something, but which aspects are you talking about?

    Which option do you use, or do you use all four?

    I truly believe in both charts. There is some subjectivity, which you may not like, but both charts are really summaries of how a coach thinks.
    I hate subjectivity, but only when it can be easily replaced by objectivity. FI, “head’s up base running”. On its face it sounds totally subjective, but it really isn’t, as long as its defined. And, it can be defined any way you’d like. Once its defined, anyone can determine it and mark it on a scoresheet. Same with a “great play”. A great play sounds subjective, but all it really is, is an extraordinary play. Heck, there’s a great definition of what “Ordinary Effort” is in OBR, and that could easily be used as your definition.

    Well, without much effort at all, I could convert my scoring “style” to accommodate the productivity chart so that it would a done deal and part of any “normal” stats coming out of the book. As I said before, I think it has way too many holes in it to be considered as a GREAT metric, but its definitely better than nothing, and certainly as good as some other metrics out there already.

    As for your “MVP” chart, I suppose its as good as any other way I’ve ever seen to do something similar. The main trouble I have with it is that the weights it gives certain things isn’t justified by anything I know. But if those are the things that you as a coach feel make a player valuable, then that’s the way it is. I just can’t imagine going through a scoresheet pulling out some of that stuff though. Now some of it would be a cinch, but others make me shudder to think of how difficult they’d be to pull from a “normal” scoresheet.

    There are a couple of issues when this kind of think is tried. One is, is it really valid, and the other is, does it really help the person using it. If it really helps, it really doesn’t matter if its valid. But if it isn’t really valid, it means it could help a heck of a lot more.

    Before I made a judgment, I wanted to get a better idea about what was going on, so I gave my best effort over the last 4 days to see what I could come up with. If you look at the attachment, You’ll see I followed your criteria pretty well, and documented where I couldn’t.

    There’s batting points, pitching points, defensive points, and then there’s negative points that come from all 3 of the groups. Then I totaled them to get a final number which I assume is supposed to list the players in terms of how “valuable” they were to the team. If you look at the last page, you’ll see my version of much the same thing, except that I call mine “Contributions”. As you can see, we approach the challenge very differently in that we define “value” differently.

    The charts come from Ron Polk's Mississippi State Baseball Playbook which has been around since 1975. As a coach, I have always had an excellent and valuable scorekeeper who may or may not be willing to do the extra work. Or I have done it or an assistant coach.
    As I said earlier, if its valuable to you, I say good on ya. But, I can say with absolute certainty that the criteria that’s being used, and the values assigned to them could easily be “improved”. Here’s an example. In the criteria, both a walk and a HBP are each assigned a negative 1 for the pitchers. But on top of the negative 1, any pitcher who walks the 1st batter in an inning gets popped –3 points for each of them. I completely understand that, but I don’t understand why a pitcher that hits the 1st batter in an inning isn’t also popped 3 points.

    To me, its little things like that that make any metric. Depending on what one does with that metric, it might be important to make sure that at least every factor that gives a positive, also has an offsetting negative.

    Since you say you’ve done it, how much time does it take to pull that data out of a scoresheet, and how do you compile it? For those things that I came up with, now that I’ve done the initial programming, I could reproduce that report without changing one thing I do when scoring a game. Is that how your final report is made? What do you do with that report, and when do you create it? After each game for that game only, for each game of the season accumulated up to that time, all games for all seasons, or all 3 or any other combination?

    When I say I have had valuable scorekeepers I don't mean in terms of keeping yearly players' stats but valuable during the game. Quick with what this batter did last time, what pitch was thrown, what he did the previous game, how many pitches our pitcher has thrown, etc.
    What you’re describing isn’t really a scorekeeper per se. What you’re describing is more of a bench coach to me. While I could tell you what a batter did the last time he was up, and could surely give you a pitch count, IMHO that other stuff couldn’t be done by someone and still pay enough attention to the game to score it properly.

    Heck, I can’t get all the things I need to do done well, and at the same time run a scoreboard that only tracks balls, strikes, runs, and innings, let alone even think of what it’d be like to try to look up what players did in past games, and chart pitches and locations as well. So whatever you call that person, if s/he does everything you say they do, and keeps score as well, I sure hope you’re paying them more than the hot dog and Coke I get at home games.
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    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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