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Thread: The Sandy Alderson Thread

  1. #51
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    I wouldn't have been thrilled if they picked Backman which IMO would have been pandering to the fan base. Leyland, Scioscia and Schowalter are off the board as apparently was Bobby V so I don't see any stellar candidates out there. I can't get too worked up about the manager and hopefully the media lets him breathe instead of trying to create controversy (ala ambushing Randy Johnson and sticking a camera in his face as he is walking up the steps of a doctor's office).

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shea Knight View Post
    So you believe we should treat the Jerry Manuels and Dalls Greens the same as we would the John McGraws and Casey Stengels?

    Managers DO impact the game, and if you want to tell me "McGraw had great players, anyone can win with them," remember that McGraw also MOLDED his players...

    The same way there's a world of difference between a Vince Lombardi and a Dennis Erickson--Lombardi had good players, but that's definitely somewhat due to the way he trained them, the way he fashioned a working relationship between himself and Bart Starr...

    The way good managers and their captains and star pitchers work together to coax that little extra effort out of the others that makes the difference between making the playoffs and falling just short.
    Before you post you need to start thinking about what your typing. You just compared McGraw with Green/Manual. Are you serious? First of all as Mets523 informed you Stengal was not so good without Berra, Mantle, Dimaggio, etc. So really no reason to address that.

    Now on to McGraw. Starting in 1902....thats right 1902 McGraw started with the Giants. He managed them for 31 years. 31 years. Also in 1902 teams were not set up as they are now. McGraw was also the GM, and talent evaluater. So yes he was capable of molding the players because well.........he chose all of them. Add into the fact that you can mold some players when your the manager for 31 years and have no threat of being fired. John McGraw WAS the Giants organization.

    Even with that said....how much does a manager "mold" a player? Either the player has talent or he doesnt. That hasnt changed. McGraw was obviously a good evaluater of talent. I am not sure how many players he actually molded. Neither are you.

    This does lead me to a question about McGraw. When he was the player manager of both the Orioles and the Giants.....did he mold himself? Interesting food for thought.

    If read anything above - I said baseball managers have the least amount of impact of all the managers/coaches of different sports. So you Lombardi analogy is moot. Although Lombardi had a team full of HOF'ers. Something many of the Met managers never had to worry about. Their teams have stunk for the most part.

    Your looking for too much from a manager. You think the manager is a manager/coach/tutor/father/priest to the players. He isnt.

    In 1973 Secratariat could have won with Fred Flinstone on his back. Ron Turcotte didnt mold Secratariat. Hey if you can bring in Football and 1902 baseball - I can talk about a horse.

    So whats next from you? How Caesar molded Spartacus into a great gladiator?
    Last edited by Paulypal; 11-22-2010 at 07:36 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    In 1973 Secratariat could have won with Fred Flinstone on his back. Ron Turcotte didnt mold Secratariat. Hey if you can bring in Football and 1902 baseball - I can talk about a horse.
    I don't know about that. I think Fred Flinstone would have slowed Secratariat down.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMets523 View Post
    I don't know about that. I think Fred Flinstone would have slowed Secratariat down.
    Hey I carefully selected Fred Flintstone as my example. If the man can pick up his car and run with it to get it started then he can only be an asset.

  5. #55
    Bob Klapisch takes apart the Terry Collins hiring (it's basically more Dodgers in the pot) and hints that Alderson's tenure may not be a long one - tough stuff, but I agree:

    http://www.northjersey.com/sports/pr...y_Collins.html
    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMets523 View Post
    I don't know about that. I think Fred Flinstone would have slowed Secratariat down.
    Maybe Fred Flintstone was on Secretariat when ONION beat him at the Spa after the Belmont !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9U4JVrr_Q

  7. #57
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    To answer the OP. Collins is only signed for two years. He was signed to "whip the boys into shape" and to separate the men from the boys for the upper management. This is a "safe" pick for Alderson because 1) not much is expected this year, 2) he is a know quality, and 3) DePodesta fought for this hire. My expectations are very low for next year anyway. If this team begins to turn the corner, and it appears that Collins is losing the players, then we go for a young up and coming players manager like Chip Hale. Collins wasnt my first choice, but I can live with it.
    unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    Before you post you need to start thinking about what your typing. You just compared McGraw with Green/Manual. Are you serious? First of all as Mets523 informed you Stengal was not so good without Berra, Mantle, Dimaggio, etc. So really no reason to address that.

    Now on to McGraw. Starting in 1902....thats right 1902 McGraw started with the Giants. He managed them for 31 years. 31 years. Also in 1902 teams were not set up as they are now. McGraw was also the GM, and talent evaluater. So yes he was capable of molding the players because well.........he chose all of them. Add into the fact that you can mold some players when your the manager for 31 years and have no threat of being fired. John McGraw WAS the Giants organization.

    Even with that said....how much does a manager "mold" a player? Either the player has talent or he doesnt. That hasnt changed. McGraw was obviously a good evaluater of talent. I am not sure how many players he actually molded. Neither are you.

    This does lead me to a question about McGraw. When he was the player manager of both the Orioles and the Giants.....did he mold himself? Interesting food for thought.

    If read anything above - I said baseball managers have the least amount of impact of all the managers/coaches of different sports. So you Lombardi analogy is moot. Although Lombardi had a team full of HOF'ers. Something many of the Met managers never had to worry about. Their teams have stunk for the most part.

    Your looking for too much from a manager. You think the manager is a manager/coach/tutor/father/priest to the players. He isnt.

    In 1973 Secratariat could have won with Fred Flinstone on his back. Ron Turcotte didnt mold Secratariat. Hey if you can bring in Football and 1902 baseball - I can talk about a horse.

    So whats next from you? How Caesar molded Spartacus into a great gladiator?
    Actually you are way off base Pauly....Spartacus' gladiatorial days was before Caesar was emperor! lol
    unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
    unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
    unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAmazingMet View Post
    Actually you are way off base Pauly....Spartacus' gladiatorial days was before Caesar was emperor! lol
    Sorry Lentulus Batiatus.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawman View Post
    Bob Klapisch takes apart the Terry Collins hiring (it's basically more Dodgers in the pot) and hints that Alderson's tenure may not be a long one - tough stuff, but I agree:

    http://www.northjersey.com/sports/pr...y_Collins.html
    Well I wouldnt say he took it apart exactly. He said it was very risky. and not what the fans wanted.

    I say who cares about Klapisch? The fans want Backman. Why? Because he was on the 1986 team, and because he has a rep for being tough. Most Met fans bitching about Collins dont realize he is cut form the same mold as Backman..minus the trailer.

    My question for Klapisch is...why is Backman the safer and better choice? He called Collins a journeyman. At least Collins had a journey. Backman has had nothing. Zero. Zip Nada. I really didnt get the memo that Backman became a genius some how. Is he the safer choice because its what fans want....honestly....should that matter. Most fans couldnt name you 10 guys in the American League. They know they think Angel Pagan is the greatest player ever. They know Wright and Reyes are Mets Gods. All of a sudden Backman became this baseball genius. Most fans that are dying for Backman to run the team is for only one reason.....he has 1986 lineage. Big Deal!

    If Collins dont work out or the plan is to get him to whip the boys into shape as previously written on here, then he gets fired too, and we move on.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAmazingMet View Post
    Actually you are way off base Pauly....Spartacus' gladiatorial days was before Caesar was emperor! lol
    Caesar never was an emperor.



    Back on topic, I don't care for Klapisch's article. Why does it matter if they took a long time to decide? Why is it bad that they interviewed a lot of candidates?
    Last edited by NYMets523; 11-22-2010 at 12:57 PM.
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    "If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?" -Jeff Francoeur

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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMets523 View Post
    Caesar never was an emperor.



    Back on topic, I don't care for Klapisch's article. Why does it matter if they took a long time to decide? Why is it bad that they interviewed a lot of candidates?
    Perhaps, but he laid the groundwork for the Empire by Octavius, and he was dictator in perpetuity, which is about the same thing, only with a weakened senate. As far as Klapisch, your right. Who cares what he thinks.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMets523 View Post
    Caesar never was an emperor.

    Back on topic, I don't care for Klapisch's article. Why does it matter if they took a long time to decide? Why is it bad that they interviewed a lot of candidates?
    Klapisch like many other media people just love kicking up dirt. The more dirt that gets kicked up the easier their job gets. The more controversey the better for them. Thats why you really have to take with a grain of salt what these "people" say. They have an ulterior motive in a lot of cases. Klapisch is trying to get the Met fan that wanted Backman to say "see this guy was the wrong choice". Actually its why STRAWMAN copied and pasted the article....because he wanted everyone to go "wow maybe Alderson is wrong". Not happening.

    Something else to consider here that Strawman didnt think of. Wouldnt have Wally Backman been the easy choice? I mean think about it. Alderson and the Wilpons choose Wally. WOW. The fans love it. Alderson endears himself to the Met fans immediately. The Wilpons seemingly have turned a corner with their last 3-4 hires. That would have been so easy. Obviously Wally didnt just have to lose the job....Wally had to lose big. According to the the the article that Klapisch wrote Wally thought he was in. This must have been in between 6 packs and flipping a table or two. The fact that Wally didnt get the job and barely got a 2nd interview really should tell you something.

    Lets not forget the original post reads "Fire Sandy Alderson"....there isnt a enough alcohol in NY to make even Klapisch get that ridiculous. What I am looking forward to is Strawmans daily rants about Collins for losing ball games with this "less than" roster come April. I cant wait to read "he brings in (fill in pitcher name), and he gives up a homer, why didnt he bring in (fill in pitcher name). That is going to be a joy. I am actually working on some responses for just such occassions.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 11-22-2010 at 02:17 PM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAmazingMet View Post
    Perhaps, but he laid the groundwork for the Empire by Octavius.
    This has got to be wrong also. Octavius was the arch enemy of Spiderman. He was a scientist and had 8 arms/legs. 4 being mechanical. Cmon even I know that. Keep up with the rest of us AmazingMet.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    Klapisch like many other media people just love kicking up dirt. The more dirt that gets kicked up the easier their job gets. The more controversey the better for them. Thats why you really have to take with a grain of salt what these "people" say. They have an ulterior motive in a lot of cases. Klapisch is trying to get the Met fan that wanted Backman to say "see this guy was the wrong choice". Actually its why STRAWMAN copied and pasted the article....because he wanted everyone to go "wow maybe Alderson is wrong". Not happening.

    Something else to consider here that Strawman didnt think of. Wouldnt have Wally Backman been the easy choice? I mean think about it. Alderson and the Wilpons choose Wally. WOW. The fans love it. Alderson endears himself to the Met fans immediately. The Wilpons seemingly have turned a corner with their last 3-4 hires. That would have been so easy. Obviously Wally didnt just have to lose the job....Wally had to lose big. According to the the the article that Klapisch wrote Wally thought he was in. This must have been in between 6 packs and flipping a table or two. The fact that Wally didnt get the job and barely got a 2nd interview really should tell you something.

    Lets not forget the original post reads "Fire Sandy Alderson"....there isnt a enough alcohol in NY to make even Klapisch get that ridiculous. What I am looking forward to is Strawmans daily rants about Collins for losing ball games with this "less than" roster come April. I cant wait to read "he brings in (fill in pitcher name), and he gives up a homer, why didnt he bring in (fill in pitcher name). That is going to be a joy. I am actually working on some responses for just such occassions.
    What's with all the drinking references - you should mention the Collins DWI if you're going down that path.

    And man, can't you enjoy a little satire - "Fire Sandy Alderson" is clearly satiric, though based in anger at his pathetic flubbing of his first major decision (which was actually Fred's).
    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawman View Post
    What's with all the drinking references - you should mention the Collins DWI if you're going down that path.

    And man, can't you enjoy a little satire - "Fire Sandy Alderson" is clearly satiric, though based in anger at his pathetic flubbing of his first major decision (which was actually Fred's).
    I remember an interview with Backman and he mentioned beer a couple of times. So being that I think he is trash anyway..now he became drunken trash. I could be wrong, and honestly if he was named manager I wouldnt like it, but we need to trust Alderson.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    I remember an interview with Backman and he mentioned beer a couple of times. So being that I think he is trash anyway..now he became drunken trash. I could be wrong, and honestly if he was named manager I wouldnt like it, but we need to trust Alderson.
    What's with the trash reference - no human being is trash. I'm from modest background and live in a small trailer myself. Seems like a class-oriented attack on a fine former Met.
    Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawman View Post
    What's with the trash reference - no human being is trash. I'm from modest background and live in a small trailer myself. Seems like a class-oriented attack on a fine former Met.
    I am not judging the trailer, and Backman probably isnt trash, but make no mistakes....some human beings are just that....trash.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    I am not judging the trailer, and Backman probably isnt trash, but make no mistakes....some human beings are just that....trash.
    Correct you are, Paulypal.
    Axide, being "trash" isn't what stopped Wally from getting the job... being the trashiest applicant, stopped him. That the man making the decision [Alderson], led the "Bash Brothers" era in Oakland, and is in line to be the next cmmisioner, forces us to redefine "trash."
    Last edited by Ralph Zig Tyko; 11-22-2010 at 05:53 PM.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Zig Tyko View Post
    Correct you are, Paulypal.
    Axide, being "trash" isn't what stopped Wally from getting the job... being the trashiest applicant, stopped him. That the man making the decision [Alderson], led the "Bash Brothers" era in Oakland, and is in line to be the next cmmisioner, forces us to redefine "trash."
    Maybe Alderson handed out the syringes?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    Maybe Alderson handed out the syringes?
    Might have. :-)
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Zig Tyko View Post
    Might have. :-)
    Ralph what do you think about the new front office moves? You havent been on here in a bit.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    Ralph what do you think about the new front office moves? You havent been on here in a bit.
    Three guys with GM experiance and successful history woiking together. All we need is My ol' buddies Grady Fusan and Tony DeFranchesco to complete an All-Star Front Office.
    That said, ownership meddling [Wilpon's kid] can skunk the ship... Collins is a plus. Things to get better really fast, if baseball people are left alone
    That's what I think, Pauypal. You?
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  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawman View Post
    What's with the trash reference - no human being is trash. I'm from modest background and live in a small trailer myself. Seems like a class-oriented attack on a fine former Met.
    Yeah I don't understand Pauly's hatred for Wally. I also don't understand how Darryl Strawberry can be his favorite player. Seems like he contradicts himself there. But then maybe he prefers ghetto over redneck?

    Anyway, Strawman I wouldn't worry about Collins getting the job now because i can see Wally getting the job at AA and working with our youngsters. With the sad state of our major league club, it will only be a matter of time before Collins is run out of town by the impatient 15 year olds who seem to have the Wilpons ear. It's probably going to be at least 3-4 years anyway before we hopefully start to see some talent emerge from our system that Sandy and his crew drafted/signed. No sense in wasting Wally by having him managing this present crop of underachievers only to see him get fired after 2 years. I'd rather Wally start fresh when we have a strong foundation of home grown talent.

    And no high priced free agents in the next 2 years unless his name is Albert Pujols.

  25. #75
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    To be honest ... I didn't see the "love" for Backman as being much more than "he was on the 86 Mets, his uniform got dirty, we need that" type of thing. The A list guys are either eliminated (Bobby V) or under contract (Leyland, Schowalter, Scioscia)... so this is what we get to choose from.

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