Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 101

Thread: Worst Defending HOFer

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,909
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    You got it! I wasn't necessarily implying that it was a Yankee, but you got the answer: Gary Sheffield has the lowest defWAR of all time, at -18.4. As bad as Jeter is in the field -- 2nd worst of all time at -13.6 -- even he tops Sheff by 4.8 defWAR. Sheffield's case as a HOFer is perhaps not as solid as Jeter's due in large part to the former's PED usage, but his name is indeed often bandied about as a potential future HOFer. And since he retired in 2009, he could make the Hall before Jeter does. So, congratulations on getting the answer at last.
    That really is unbelievable about Sheff! Had you not thrown out that hint, I never would've even thought of him. I really find it hard to believe he has less dWAR than ManRam & Piazza. Even just talking recent Yankees, I would have bet on Bernie & Soriano having less. I'll be the first one to admit that Sheff is no Clemente or Ichiro by any stretch of the imagination, but never in a million years would I have imagined he was that atrocious. I didn't even know there even was a negative leaderboard for WARs. May I ask where you found such a list? Great trivia thread by the way!

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Off in left field
    Posts
    4,997
    Quote Originally Posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    That really is unbelievable about Sheff! Had you not thrown out that hint, I never would've even thought of him. I really find it hard to believe he has less dWAR than ManRam & Piazza. Even just talking recent Yankees, I would have bet on Bernie & Soriano having less. I'll be the first one to admit that Sheff is no Clemente or Ichiro by any stretch of the imagination, but never in a million years would I have imagined he was that atrocious. I didn't even know there even was a negative leaderboard for WARs. May I ask where you found such a list? Great trivia thread by the way!
    There isn't such a list. I made it myself with data I compiled from BB-Reference. As I promised Brooklyn, I'll post my list here momentarily.

    And here it is:

    Bottom 100 Players in Career Defensive WAR (1876-2010)

    tot = total WAR = pitWAR + posWAR
    pit = pitching WAR
    pos = position player WAR = offWAR + defWAR
    off = offensive WAR
    def = defensive WAR

    HTML Code:
    Rk  Player                 tot   pit   pos   off    def
     1  Sheffield, Gary       63.3   0.0  63.3  81.7  -18.4
     2  Jeter, Derek          70.1   0.0  70.1  83.7  -13.6
     3  Samuel, Juan          13.6   0.0  13.6  26.4  -12.8
     4  Yost, Eddie           30.3   0.0  30.3  42.5  -12.2
     5  Bonilla, Bobby        32.1  -0.1  32.2  44.3  -12.1
     6  Williams, Bernie      47.3   0.0  47.3  59.3  -12.0
     7  Monday, Rick          32.7   0.0  32.7  44.6  -11.9
     8  Ramirez, Manny        67.5   0.0  67.5  79.3  -11.8
     8  Tartabull, Danny      20.9   0.0  20.9  32.7  -11.8
    10  Gutierrez, Ricky      -3.4   0.0  -3.4   8.1  -11.5
    11  Madlock, Bill         35.4   0.0  35.4  46.8  -11.4
    12  Aspromonte, Bob       -1.0   0.0  -1.0  10.1  -11.1
    13  Gomez, Chris          -3.6   0.0  -3.6   7.4  -11.0
    14  Harrah, Toby          47.1   0.0  47.1  58.0  -10.9
    15  Burroughs, Jeff       17.2   0.0  17.2  27.9  -10.7
    16  Allen, Dick           61.2   0.0  61.2  71.8  -10.6
    16  Duncan, Mariano        0.7   0.0   0.7  11.3  -10.6
    16  Johnson, Howard       25.0   0.0  25.0  35.6  -10.6
    19  Howard, Frank         39.4   0.0  39.4  49.9  -10.5
    19  Orta, Jorge           10.1   0.0  10.1  20.6  -10.5
    21  Morales, Jerry        -3.9   0.0  -3.9   6.3  -10.2
    22  Dunston, Shawon       10.0   0.0  10.0  20.1  -10.1
    23  Stairs, Matt          14.0   0.0  14.0  23.9   -9.9
    24  Delahanty, Jim        15.6  -0.2  15.8  25.6   -9.8
    24  Murcer, Bobby         32.7   0.0  32.7  42.5   -9.8
    24  Palmer, Dean          10.1   0.0  10.1  19.9   -9.8
    24  Wigginton, Ty          1.8   0.0   1.8  11.6   -9.8
    28  Kuenn, Harvey         24.3   0.0  24.3  34.0   -9.7
    29  Matthews, Gary        30.5   0.0  30.5  40.0   -9.5
    30  Bichette, Dante        2.0   0.0   2.0  11.3   -9.3
    30  Ramirez, Rafael        3.1   0.0   3.1  12.4   -9.3
    32  Winfield, Dave        59.7   0.0  59.7  68.9   -9.2
    33  Butler, Brett         46.5   0.0  46.5  55.6   -9.1
    34  Moreland, Keith        2.4   0.0   2.4  11.4   -9.0
    35  Teahen, Mark          -0.7   0.0  -0.7   8.2   -8.9
    36  Carter, Joe           16.5   0.0  16.5  25.1   -8.6
    36  Kessinger, Don         5.0   0.0   5.0  13.6   -8.6
    36  Sievers, Roy          27.5   0.0  27.5  36.1   -8.6
    39  Rojas, Cookie          4.0   0.0   4.0  12.5   -8.5
    40  Hulswitt, Rudy        -1.0   0.0  -1.0   7.4   -8.4
    40  Parrish, Larry        13.9   0.0  13.9  22.3   -8.4
    40  Taveras, Frank        -1.0   0.0  -1.0   7.4   -8.4
    43  Piazza, Mike          59.1   0.0  59.1  67.4   -8.3
    44  Gonzalez, Juan        33.5   0.0  33.5  41.7   -8.2
    44  LeFlore, Ron          14.3   0.0  14.3  22.5   -8.2
    46  Giambi, Jason         52.8   0.0  52.8  60.9   -8.1
    46  Luzinski, Greg        28.2   0.0  28.2  36.3   -8.1
    46  Zeile, Todd           15.0  -0.3  15.3  23.4   -8.1
    49  Grieve, Ben            6.7   0.0   6.7  14.7   -8.0
    49  LeMaster, Johnnie     -7.4   0.0  -7.4   0.6   -8.0
    49  Young, Ralph          -1.6   0.0  -1.6   6.4   -8.0
    52  Biggio, Craig         66.2   0.0  66.2  74.1   -7.9
    52  Gutteridge, Don        0.4   0.0   0.4   8.3   -7.9
    52  Wagner, Leon          13.6   0.0  13.6  21.5   -7.9
    55  McCovey, Willie       65.1   0.0  65.1  72.9   -7.8
    56  Buhner, Jay           20.1   0.0  20.1  27.8   -7.7
    56  Cordero, Wil           3.2   0.0   3.2  10.9   -7.7
    56  Hawpe, Brad            3.5   0.0   3.5  11.2   -7.7
    59  Bannister, Alan        1.6   0.0   1.6   9.2   -7.6
    59  Barrett, Michael       0.3   0.0   0.3   7.9   -7.6
    59  Killebrew, Harmon     61.1   0.0  61.1  68.7   -7.6
    62  Bell, Gus             14.3   0.0  14.3  21.8   -7.5
    62  Bottomley, Jim        32.4   0.0  32.4  39.9   -7.5
    62  Durham, Ray           32.7   0.0  32.7  40.2   -7.5
    62  Lobert, Hans          21.7   0.0  21.7  29.2   -7.5
    62  Offerman, Jose        12.3   0.0  12.3  19.8   -7.5
    67  Johnson, Deron         5.1   0.0   5.1  12.5   -7.4
    68  Chase, Hal            22.6   0.0  22.6  29.9   -7.3
    68  Cora, Joey             4.5   0.0   4.5  11.8   -7.3
    68  Giles, Brian          42.7   0.0  42.7  50.0   -7.3
    68  Lynch, Jerry           2.1   0.0   2.1   9.4   -7.3
    68  Thomas, Frank         75.9   0.0  75.9  83.2   -7.3
    68  Wilson, Preston        5.2   0.0   5.2  12.5   -7.3
    74  Gaston, Cito          -2.5   0.0  -2.5   4.7   -7.2
    74  Mantilla, Felix        3.3   0.0   3.3  10.5   -7.2
    74  Sax, Steve            17.5   0.0  17.5  24.7   -7.2
    74  Schaefer, Germany      8.9  -0.2   9.1  16.3   -7.2
    74  Thompson, Fresco      -1.0   0.0  -1.0   6.2   -7.2
    79  Ashby, Alan            8.4   0.0   8.4  15.5   -7.1
    79  Blauser, Jeff         21.4   0.0  21.4  28.5   -7.1
    79  Covington, Wes         7.9   0.0   7.9  15.0   -7.1
    79  Davis, Eric           34.0   0.0  34.0  41.1   -7.1
    79  Jackson, Sonny        -1.3   0.0  -1.3   5.8   -7.1
    79  Klesko, Ryan          26.7   0.0  26.7  33.8   -7.1
    79  Mazzilli, Lee         15.9   0.0  15.9  23.0   -7.1
    79  Stillwell, Kurt        2.2   0.0   2.2   9.3   -7.1
    79  Wambsganss, Bill       0.8   0.0   0.8   7.9   -7.1
    88  Young, Mike           24.9   0.0  24.9  31.9   -7.0
    89  Grubb, Johnny         14.1   0.0  14.1  21.0   -6.9
    89  Hart, Jim Ray         23.8   0.0  23.8  30.7   -6.9
    89  Lewis, Mark           -3.7   0.0  -3.7   3.2   -6.9
    92  Abbaticchio, Ed        5.9   0.0   5.9  12.7   -6.8
    92  Thomas, Derrel         2.5   0.0   2.5   9.3   -6.8
    92  Watson, Bob           30.5   0.0  30.5  37.3   -6.8
    95  Dietz, Dick           13.0   0.0  13.0  19.7   -6.7
    95  Harris, Vic           -7.7   0.0  -7.7  -1.0   -6.7
    95  O'Leary, Charley      -1.9   0.0  -1.9   4.8   -6.7
    95  Stricker, Cub         -5.2   0.5  -5.7   1.0   -6.7
    95  Sutherland, Gary      -7.0   0.0  -7.0  -0.3   -6.7
    95  Taubensee, Ed          4.9   0.0   4.9  11.6   -6.7
    95  Tejada, Miguel        42.0   0.0  42.0  48.7   -6.7
    95  Washington, Claudell  18.2   0.0  18.2  24.9   -6.7
    If anyone wants a longer list, let me know.
    Last edited by Nerdlinger; 11-30-2010 at 09:11 PM.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! ***

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,909
    Nice work and thank you very much for sharing! Some very surprising ones in there. I would've never thought of Murcer for one!

  4. #79
    What is defensive replacement level? i must say, the concept of a replacement level makes sense to me in a very abstract way when applied to total value, but not when applied to any one facet of the game. But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    northeast Ohio
    Posts
    26,739
    Bernie Williams < Manny?
    Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
    Butler < Joe Carter?
    And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

    Sorry, not buying this one
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Off in left field
    Posts
    4,997
    Well, as I don't quite know exactly what goes into calculating WAR, I can't vouch for its accuracy in determining relative player value. I have found that more objective assessments of player value often clash with more subjective ones. Which is more "right" is of course debatable.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! ***

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Westchester County, NY
    Posts
    3,050
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    There isn't such a list. I made it myself with data I compiled from BB-Reference. As I promised Brooklyn, I'll post my list here momentarily.
    thanks for sharing

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,830
    Blog Entries
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    Bernie Williams < Manny?
    Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
    Butler < Joe Carter?
    And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

    Sorry, not buying this one
    These are "counting" numbers not percentages. That being said how bad must Bob Aspromonte have been to make this list????

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    northeast Ohio
    Posts
    26,739
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    Well, as I don't quite know exactly what goes into calculating WAR, I can't vouch for its accuracy in determining relative player value. I have found that more objective assessments of player value often clash with more subjective ones. Which is more "right" is of course debatable.
    dWAR may or may not be more objective. Set up polls about my questions in post 80 & see who wins
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Beady View Post
    But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..
    Very good point!

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Off in left field
    Posts
    4,997
    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    dWAR may or may not be more objective. Set up polls about my questions in post 80 & see who wins
    Yes, but like the method chosen to calculate WAR ultimately is, polls are subjective too.

    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    These are "counting" numbers not percentages.
    RMB: Nick makes a good point here.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! ***

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    northeast Ohio
    Posts
    26,739
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    Yes, but like the method chosen to calculate WAR ultimately is, polls are subjective too.
    True, but you're getting a consensus, not ONE person's formula



    <RMB: Nick makes a good point here.>

    Point taken, but which side of those comparisons would you still side with?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    Bernie Williams < Manny?
    Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
    Butler < Joe Carter?
    And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

    Sorry, not buying this one
    I think position is taken into account. Manny Ramirez is "better" than Bernie Williams because he's a corner outfielder and Williams was a center fielder. A poor fielder in left does less damage to your team than a poor fielder in center.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Off in left field
    Posts
    4,997
    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    True, but you're getting a consensus, not ONE person's formula
    Fair enough. However, a consensus of opinions is not necessarily any more accurate than a single opinion. People may be swayed by a player's inclusion in the Hall, awards that they've won, past and potentially outdated assessments by noted historians of how "great" a player is, or simply peer pressure. Working from the numbers helps to keep the assessment of player value more grounded and concrete, even if sabermetricians have yet to agree on what formulas are best.

    <RMB: Nick makes a good point here.>

    Point taken, but which side of those comparisons would you still side with?
    I really have no idea. As I've said, I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough about the history of the sport to give an educated, subjective estimation of most players' overall defensive contributions. I can only go by hearsay (which is of course not always that reliable) and what the numbers can tell us.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! ***

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Beady View Post
    What is defensive replacement level? i must say, the concept of a replacement level makes sense to me in a very abstract way when applied to total value, but not when applied to any one facet of the game. But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..
    I believe that DWAR uses AVERAGE defensive performance at a position as the reference point. How they define/calculate average, I have no idea.

  16. #91
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,909
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    I believe that DWAR uses AVERAGE defensive performance at a position as the reference point. How they define/calculate average, I have no idea.
    The reference point for the "replacement player" used by dWAR certainly seems much higher than the "replacement player" used by BP for calculating FRAR, and closer to the "average player" used by BP for calculating FRAA. dWAR for Jeter concurs much more with FRAA than FRAR. So my take on this is that the "replacement player" used by dWAR is indeed an average MLB player and not the AAA level scrub used by BP.
    Last edited by Joltin' Joe; 12-01-2010 at 09:26 AM.

  17. #92
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Auburn, In.
    Posts
    10
    Jim Ray Hart had a three year span where he went 30/90/.290 in the mid 60's. He split time between 3rd and the OF where he managed a laughable combined .929 FA for a -6.9 def WAR which encompassed basically 6 or 7 full seansons with a -2.1 in 1965. Big bat, left his glove at the house, for 11 years.

  18. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Outer Innerstan
    Posts
    3,123
    Given the reworking of BBRef's dWAR, I thought it might be fun to look at a few of these guys again...
    Sheff -28.6
    Jetes -8.8
    Dunn -27.4
    Bull -20.9
    Kong -17.1
    Hondo -24.1
    Splinter -13.3
    Dick Stuart -12.9
    Canseco -14.5
    Mays 18.1
    Ozzie 43.4
    Honus 21.3
    Maz 23.9

    The basic gist of these results passes the smell test for me...

    Winfield -23.7
    Last edited by Dude Paskert; 08-02-2013 at 06:17 AM.
    "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Beady View Post
    What is defensive replacement level? i must say, the concept of a replacement level makes sense to me in a very abstract way when applied to total value, but not when applied to any one facet of the game. But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..
    For the record, defensive replacement level is set at "average" on BBRef. The replacement level is an adjustment to total player value only. Some war systems use a replacement level for hitting and fielding separately.

  20. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,572
    Quote Originally Posted by ian2813 View Post
    I think position is taken into account. Manny Ramirez is "better" than Bernie Williams because he's a corner outfielder and Williams was a center fielder. A poor fielder in left does less damage to your team than a poor fielder in center.
    --Its not just that you can do less damage, but you are being compared to a lesser set of defenders. There are lots of terrible defending LFers to lower the bar Manny has to clear to accumulate negative defensive value. Few poor defensive OFers get to spend significant time in CF so Williams is being compared to a much stronger field. I assume if Williams had moved to LF when his game started to slip his numbers would be much better - perhaps even positive. Murcer is another guy who was a bit stretched in CF but would have been fine as a corner OF. Butler I think was a good CF as a young player, but stuck there even after he no longer had the range for it.
    --Likewise, Derek Jeter is not the 2nd most incompetent defender in history. He is just overmatched in being compared to a group of players who are primarily selected for the defensive skills (bat first S are pretty rare). Also, he should have been moved off the position long ago. Had he moved instead of A-Rod his numbers would be much different (assuming he adjusted well to his new position) - and he would be much more revered (outside NY) instead of becoming the polarizing figure he is now.

  21. #96
    In 1972, when Murcer lead the league in CF putouts and was 2nd in CF assists, his dWAR is rated as 0.0 - that seems a bit harsh?

  22. #97
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Outer Innerstan
    Posts
    3,123
    Quote Originally Posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    In 1972, when Murcer lead the league in CF putouts and was 2nd in CF assists, his dWAR is rated as 0.0 - that seems a bit harsh?
    Well, Bobby played more games than the guys just below him in the PO list...

    Bobby Murcer 151G 1328.1 Innings in CF 376PO .283PO/IP
    Dave May 138G 1168 Innings in CF 364PO .311PO/IP
    Amos Otis 137G 1190 Innings in CF 352PO .296PO/IP

    I'm sure this isn't the whole explanation, but I'd guess it's part of it.
    "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    mariners country
    Posts
    23,572
    --i'd say that his score means an average CF would have been expected to make that many catches in those games after adjusting for park and pitching staff.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    Well, Bobby played more games than the guys just below him in the PO list...

    Bobby Murcer 151G 1328.1 Innings in CF 376PO .283PO/IP
    Dave May 138G 1168 Innings in CF 364PO .311PO/IP
    Amos Otis 137G 1190 Innings in CF 352PO .296PO/IP

    I'm sure this isn't the whole explanation, but I'd guess it's part of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --i'd say that his score means an average CF would have been expected to make that many catches in those games after adjusting for park and pitching staff.
    Eh. It's probably just that he didn't grit his teeth hard enough. ()
    Last edited by westsidegrounds; 08-02-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Outer Innerstan
    Posts
    3,123
    Quote Originally Posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    Eh. It's probably just that he didn't grit his teeth hard enough. ()
    He was probably hampered by the fear of getting caught in a sprinkler head or drain like Mantle did...
    "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •