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Thread: Worst Defending HOFer

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gee Walker View Post
    Winfield won seven Gold Gloves, but I can't really see anything in his record that makes him out to be a good outfielder. I don' think this is an illusion of having outstanding centerfielders taking away all of his marginal plays - he played with Johnny Grubb, George Hendrick, Jerry Mumphrey, and a 32-year old Claudell Washington as his full-time centerfielders over his career. But he's got low numbers across the board, except in assists, where he's respectable.

    He LOOKED like a good outfielder, though...
    He led his league in putouts in 1979, and an additional three years he had over 300 putouts from the corner, a lot of guys don't do that. The year he turned 33 he did a fair amount of subbing in center.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
    I was about to ask for a hint to the other question (at least the era), but looks like you gave us one. I'll also take "chance" to mean that either the person is recently retired and a border-line HOFer, or still active but older than Jeter.

    Based on that I'll guess Fred McGriff and Miguel Tejada, although I don't think either have much of a chance
    McGriff has -2.7 defWAR, Tejada has a much lower -6.7. Still not the worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    He led his league in putouts in 1979, and an additional three years he had over 300 putouts from the corner, a lot of guys don't do that. The year he turned 33 he did a fair amount of subbing in center.
    I know even less about how advanced fielding stats are calculated than batting and pitching ones, but I do know that there are some sort of positional adjustments which may have hurt Winfield and that the positive contributions from putouts and assists might be weighted disproportionately to the negative contributions from errors.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    I know even less about how advanced fielding stats are calculated than batting and pitching ones, but I do know that there are some sort of positional adjustments which may have hurt Winfield and that the positive contributions from putouts and assists might be weighted disproportionately to the negative contributions from errors.
    Winfield never had more than twelve errors in a year. You oughta see some of Clemente's error totals
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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  4. #64
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    Ok, I've stopped thinking about "bad" defenders, and started focusing on potential HOFers. How about Biggio, McGwire, Palmeiro, Alomar, Larkin, Bagwell, Juan Gonzalez?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    Winfield never had more than twelve errors in a year. You oughta see some of Clemente's error totals
    I think there's also some kind of situational adjustment, at least in more recent years where data is more available. Maybe Winfield is being hurt by that. If so, once PBP data is incorporated into WAR for pre-1974 seasons (I think that's BB-Ref's cutoff), then there might be some changes in Clemente's numbers, among others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
    Ok, I've stopped thinking about "bad" defenders, and started focusing on potential HOFers. How about Biggio, McGwire, Palmeiro, Alomar, Larkin, Bagwell, Juan Gonzalez?
    Sorry, none of those. Keep guessing!
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  6. #66
    Rudy York was such a poor fielder that Hank Greenberg had to be moved from first base to left field. Might it be him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian2813 View Post
    Rudy York was such a poor fielder that Hank Greenberg had to be moved from first base to left field. Might it be him?
    No, York actually had a positive career defWAR, albeit an unimpressive one, of 1.4.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    Quite possibly, though there's a chance someone might beat Jeter to the punch.
    I take that as a hint? The first one that comes to mind is...
    ManRam?

    EDIT: another future HOF I just thought of is Piazza
    Last edited by Joltin' Joe; 11-30-2010 at 03:35 PM.

  9. #69
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    Just thinking of past Yankees players, Bernie, Giambi, and Soriano has to be up there. Chucky Knobby was awful in the end but was very good in the Dome years so he's probably a little above neutral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    I take that as a hint? The first one that comes to mind is...
    ManRam?

    EDIT: another future HOF I just thought of is Piazza
    Quote Originally Posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    Just thinking of past Yankees players, Bernie, Giambi, and Soriano has to be up there. Chucky Knobby was awful in the end but was very good in the Dome years so he's probably a little above neutral.
    No, none of those guys are the worst.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    No, none of those guys are the worst.
    I am truly stumped. I can't think of anyone that could possibly have racked up more negative dWAR than Jeter. I can't think of any other player other than him that has been allowed to play such an important positon for so long and so many innings while being so atrocious.
    Last edited by Joltin' Joe; 11-30-2010 at 04:25 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    I am truly stumped. I can't think of anyone that could possibly have racked up more negative dWAR than Jeter. I can't think of any other player other than him that has been allowed to play such an important positon for so long and so many innings while being so atrocious.
    Are you sure you can't think of anyone else potentially HOF-worthy who just might make the Hall before Jeter?
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    Are you sure you can't think of anyone else potentially HOF-worthy who just might make the Hall before Jeter?
    That defintely sounds like you are implying that this was a fairly recent Yankee... The only one that I can think of would be Sheff, although I don't think he was that atrocious.

  14. #74
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    I am not a big fan of WAR, but here are some fielders who may not do well in that metric as it is currently calculated:

    Gary Sheffield, Manny Ramirez, Bernie Williams, Ricky Gutierrez, Bobby Bonilla, Danny Tartabull, Adam Dunn, Juan Samuel, Eddie Yost, Frank Howard, Rick Monday, Dick Allen, Bill Madlock, Jeff Burroughs, Howard Johnson, and the ever popular Chris Gomez.

    If you are still looking for the all time leader in negative DefWAR, he might be in that group.
    Your Second Base Coach
    Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. Thatís equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    That defintely sounds like you are implying that this was a fairly recent Yankee... The only one that I can think of would be Sheff, although I don't think he was that atrocious.
    You got it! I wasn't necessarily implying that it was a Yankee, but you got the answer: Gary Sheffield has the lowest defWAR of all time, at -18.4. As bad as Jeter is in the field -- 2nd worst of all time at -13.6 -- even he tops Sheff by 4.8 defWAR. Sheffield's case as a HOFer is perhaps not as solid as Jeter's due in large part to the former's PED usage, but his name is indeed often bandied about as a potential future HOFer. And since he retired in 2009, he could make the Hall before Jeter does. So, congratulations on getting the answer at last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Base Coach View Post
    I am not a big fan of WAR, but here are some fielders who may not do well in that metric as it is currently calculated:

    Gary Sheffield, Manny Ramirez, Bernie Williams, Ricky Gutierrez, Bobby Bonilla, Danny Tartabull, Adam Dunn, Juan Samuel, Eddie Yost, Frank Howard, Rick Monday, Dick Allen, Bill Madlock, Jeff Burroughs, Howard Johnson, and the ever popular Chris Gomez.

    If you are still looking for the all time leader in negative DefWAR, he might be in that group.
    You got the winner in there, but Joe beat you to the punch.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    You got it! I wasn't necessarily implying that it was a Yankee, but you got the answer: Gary Sheffield has the lowest defWAR of all time, at -18.4. As bad as Jeter is in the field -- 2nd worst of all time at -13.6 -- even he tops Sheff by 4.8 defWAR. Sheffield's case as a HOFer is perhaps not as solid as Jeter's due in large part to the former's PED usage, but his name is indeed often bandied about as a potential future HOFer. And since he retired in 2009, he could make the Hall before Jeter does. So, congratulations on getting the answer at last.
    That really is unbelievable about Sheff! Had you not thrown out that hint, I never would've even thought of him. I really find it hard to believe he has less dWAR than ManRam & Piazza. Even just talking recent Yankees, I would have bet on Bernie & Soriano having less. I'll be the first one to admit that Sheff is no Clemente or Ichiro by any stretch of the imagination, but never in a million years would I have imagined he was that atrocious. I didn't even know there even was a negative leaderboard for WARs. May I ask where you found such a list? Great trivia thread by the way!

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    That really is unbelievable about Sheff! Had you not thrown out that hint, I never would've even thought of him. I really find it hard to believe he has less dWAR than ManRam & Piazza. Even just talking recent Yankees, I would have bet on Bernie & Soriano having less. I'll be the first one to admit that Sheff is no Clemente or Ichiro by any stretch of the imagination, but never in a million years would I have imagined he was that atrocious. I didn't even know there even was a negative leaderboard for WARs. May I ask where you found such a list? Great trivia thread by the way!
    There isn't such a list. I made it myself with data I compiled from BB-Reference. As I promised Brooklyn, I'll post my list here momentarily.

    And here it is:

    Bottom 100 Players in Career Defensive WAR (1876-2010)

    tot = total WAR = pitWAR + posWAR
    pit = pitching WAR
    pos = position player WAR = offWAR + defWAR
    off = offensive WAR
    def = defensive WAR

    HTML Code:
    Rk  Player                 tot   pit   pos   off    def
     1  Sheffield, Gary       63.3   0.0  63.3  81.7  -18.4
     2  Jeter, Derek          70.1   0.0  70.1  83.7  -13.6
     3  Samuel, Juan          13.6   0.0  13.6  26.4  -12.8
     4  Yost, Eddie           30.3   0.0  30.3  42.5  -12.2
     5  Bonilla, Bobby        32.1  -0.1  32.2  44.3  -12.1
     6  Williams, Bernie      47.3   0.0  47.3  59.3  -12.0
     7  Monday, Rick          32.7   0.0  32.7  44.6  -11.9
     8  Ramirez, Manny        67.5   0.0  67.5  79.3  -11.8
     8  Tartabull, Danny      20.9   0.0  20.9  32.7  -11.8
    10  Gutierrez, Ricky      -3.4   0.0  -3.4   8.1  -11.5
    11  Madlock, Bill         35.4   0.0  35.4  46.8  -11.4
    12  Aspromonte, Bob       -1.0   0.0  -1.0  10.1  -11.1
    13  Gomez, Chris          -3.6   0.0  -3.6   7.4  -11.0
    14  Harrah, Toby          47.1   0.0  47.1  58.0  -10.9
    15  Burroughs, Jeff       17.2   0.0  17.2  27.9  -10.7
    16  Allen, Dick           61.2   0.0  61.2  71.8  -10.6
    16  Duncan, Mariano        0.7   0.0   0.7  11.3  -10.6
    16  Johnson, Howard       25.0   0.0  25.0  35.6  -10.6
    19  Howard, Frank         39.4   0.0  39.4  49.9  -10.5
    19  Orta, Jorge           10.1   0.0  10.1  20.6  -10.5
    21  Morales, Jerry        -3.9   0.0  -3.9   6.3  -10.2
    22  Dunston, Shawon       10.0   0.0  10.0  20.1  -10.1
    23  Stairs, Matt          14.0   0.0  14.0  23.9   -9.9
    24  Delahanty, Jim        15.6  -0.2  15.8  25.6   -9.8
    24  Murcer, Bobby         32.7   0.0  32.7  42.5   -9.8
    24  Palmer, Dean          10.1   0.0  10.1  19.9   -9.8
    24  Wigginton, Ty          1.8   0.0   1.8  11.6   -9.8
    28  Kuenn, Harvey         24.3   0.0  24.3  34.0   -9.7
    29  Matthews, Gary        30.5   0.0  30.5  40.0   -9.5
    30  Bichette, Dante        2.0   0.0   2.0  11.3   -9.3
    30  Ramirez, Rafael        3.1   0.0   3.1  12.4   -9.3
    32  Winfield, Dave        59.7   0.0  59.7  68.9   -9.2
    33  Butler, Brett         46.5   0.0  46.5  55.6   -9.1
    34  Moreland, Keith        2.4   0.0   2.4  11.4   -9.0
    35  Teahen, Mark          -0.7   0.0  -0.7   8.2   -8.9
    36  Carter, Joe           16.5   0.0  16.5  25.1   -8.6
    36  Kessinger, Don         5.0   0.0   5.0  13.6   -8.6
    36  Sievers, Roy          27.5   0.0  27.5  36.1   -8.6
    39  Rojas, Cookie          4.0   0.0   4.0  12.5   -8.5
    40  Hulswitt, Rudy        -1.0   0.0  -1.0   7.4   -8.4
    40  Parrish, Larry        13.9   0.0  13.9  22.3   -8.4
    40  Taveras, Frank        -1.0   0.0  -1.0   7.4   -8.4
    43  Piazza, Mike          59.1   0.0  59.1  67.4   -8.3
    44  Gonzalez, Juan        33.5   0.0  33.5  41.7   -8.2
    44  LeFlore, Ron          14.3   0.0  14.3  22.5   -8.2
    46  Giambi, Jason         52.8   0.0  52.8  60.9   -8.1
    46  Luzinski, Greg        28.2   0.0  28.2  36.3   -8.1
    46  Zeile, Todd           15.0  -0.3  15.3  23.4   -8.1
    49  Grieve, Ben            6.7   0.0   6.7  14.7   -8.0
    49  LeMaster, Johnnie     -7.4   0.0  -7.4   0.6   -8.0
    49  Young, Ralph          -1.6   0.0  -1.6   6.4   -8.0
    52  Biggio, Craig         66.2   0.0  66.2  74.1   -7.9
    52  Gutteridge, Don        0.4   0.0   0.4   8.3   -7.9
    52  Wagner, Leon          13.6   0.0  13.6  21.5   -7.9
    55  McCovey, Willie       65.1   0.0  65.1  72.9   -7.8
    56  Buhner, Jay           20.1   0.0  20.1  27.8   -7.7
    56  Cordero, Wil           3.2   0.0   3.2  10.9   -7.7
    56  Hawpe, Brad            3.5   0.0   3.5  11.2   -7.7
    59  Bannister, Alan        1.6   0.0   1.6   9.2   -7.6
    59  Barrett, Michael       0.3   0.0   0.3   7.9   -7.6
    59  Killebrew, Harmon     61.1   0.0  61.1  68.7   -7.6
    62  Bell, Gus             14.3   0.0  14.3  21.8   -7.5
    62  Bottomley, Jim        32.4   0.0  32.4  39.9   -7.5
    62  Durham, Ray           32.7   0.0  32.7  40.2   -7.5
    62  Lobert, Hans          21.7   0.0  21.7  29.2   -7.5
    62  Offerman, Jose        12.3   0.0  12.3  19.8   -7.5
    67  Johnson, Deron         5.1   0.0   5.1  12.5   -7.4
    68  Chase, Hal            22.6   0.0  22.6  29.9   -7.3
    68  Cora, Joey             4.5   0.0   4.5  11.8   -7.3
    68  Giles, Brian          42.7   0.0  42.7  50.0   -7.3
    68  Lynch, Jerry           2.1   0.0   2.1   9.4   -7.3
    68  Thomas, Frank         75.9   0.0  75.9  83.2   -7.3
    68  Wilson, Preston        5.2   0.0   5.2  12.5   -7.3
    74  Gaston, Cito          -2.5   0.0  -2.5   4.7   -7.2
    74  Mantilla, Felix        3.3   0.0   3.3  10.5   -7.2
    74  Sax, Steve            17.5   0.0  17.5  24.7   -7.2
    74  Schaefer, Germany      8.9  -0.2   9.1  16.3   -7.2
    74  Thompson, Fresco      -1.0   0.0  -1.0   6.2   -7.2
    79  Ashby, Alan            8.4   0.0   8.4  15.5   -7.1
    79  Blauser, Jeff         21.4   0.0  21.4  28.5   -7.1
    79  Covington, Wes         7.9   0.0   7.9  15.0   -7.1
    79  Davis, Eric           34.0   0.0  34.0  41.1   -7.1
    79  Jackson, Sonny        -1.3   0.0  -1.3   5.8   -7.1
    79  Klesko, Ryan          26.7   0.0  26.7  33.8   -7.1
    79  Mazzilli, Lee         15.9   0.0  15.9  23.0   -7.1
    79  Stillwell, Kurt        2.2   0.0   2.2   9.3   -7.1
    79  Wambsganss, Bill       0.8   0.0   0.8   7.9   -7.1
    88  Young, Mike           24.9   0.0  24.9  31.9   -7.0
    89  Grubb, Johnny         14.1   0.0  14.1  21.0   -6.9
    89  Hart, Jim Ray         23.8   0.0  23.8  30.7   -6.9
    89  Lewis, Mark           -3.7   0.0  -3.7   3.2   -6.9
    92  Abbaticchio, Ed        5.9   0.0   5.9  12.7   -6.8
    92  Thomas, Derrel         2.5   0.0   2.5   9.3   -6.8
    92  Watson, Bob           30.5   0.0  30.5  37.3   -6.8
    95  Dietz, Dick           13.0   0.0  13.0  19.7   -6.7
    95  Harris, Vic           -7.7   0.0  -7.7  -1.0   -6.7
    95  O'Leary, Charley      -1.9   0.0  -1.9   4.8   -6.7
    95  Stricker, Cub         -5.2   0.5  -5.7   1.0   -6.7
    95  Sutherland, Gary      -7.0   0.0  -7.0  -0.3   -6.7
    95  Taubensee, Ed          4.9   0.0   4.9  11.6   -6.7
    95  Tejada, Miguel        42.0   0.0  42.0  48.7   -6.7
    95  Washington, Claudell  18.2   0.0  18.2  24.9   -6.7
    If anyone wants a longer list, let me know.
    Last edited by Nerdlinger; 11-30-2010 at 09:11 PM.
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  18. #78
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    Nice work and thank you very much for sharing! Some very surprising ones in there. I would've never thought of Murcer for one!

  19. #79
    What is defensive replacement level? i must say, the concept of a replacement level makes sense to me in a very abstract way when applied to total value, but not when applied to any one facet of the game. But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..

  20. #80
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    Bernie Williams < Manny?
    Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
    Butler < Joe Carter?
    And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

    Sorry, not buying this one
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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