Worst Defending HOFer

[Joltin' Joe]

You got it! I wasn't necessarily implying that it was a Yankee, but you got the answer: Gary Sheffield has the lowest defWAR of all time, at -18.4. As bad as Jeter is in the field -- 2nd worst of all time at -13.6 -- even he tops Sheff by 4.8 defWAR. Sheffield's case as a HOFer is perhaps not as solid as Jeter's due in large part to the former's PED usage, but his name is indeed often bandied about as a potential future HOFer. And since he retired in 2009, he could make the Hall before Jeter does. So, congratulations on getting the answer at last.

That really is unbelievable about Sheff! Had you not thrown out that hint, I never would've even thought of him. I really find it hard to believe he has less dWAR than ManRam & Piazza. Even just talking recent Yankees, I would have bet on Bernie & Soriano having less. I'll be the first one to admit that Sheff is no Clemente or Ichiro by any stretch of the imagination, but never in a million years would I have imagined he was that atrocious. I didn't even know there even was a negative leaderboard for WARs. May I ask where you found such a list? Great trivia thread by the way!

[DJC]

That really is unbelievable about Sheff! Had you not thrown out that hint, I never would've even thought of him. I really find it hard to believe he has less dWAR than ManRam & Piazza. Even just talking recent Yankees, I would have bet on Bernie & Soriano having less. I'll be the first one to admit that Sheff is no Clemente or Ichiro by any stretch of the imagination, but never in a million years would I have imagined he was that atrocious. I didn't even know there even was a negative leaderboard for WARs. May I ask where you found such a list? Great trivia thread by the way!

There isn't such a list. I made it myself with data I compiled from BB-Reference. As I promised Brooklyn, I'll post my list here momentarily.

And here it is:

Bottom 100 Players in Career Defensive WAR (1876-2010)

tot = total WAR = pitWAR + posWAR
pit = pitching WAR
pos = position player WAR = offWAR + defWAR
off = offensive WAR
def = defensive WAR

Rk  Player                 tot   pit   pos   off    def
 1  Sheffield, Gary       63.3   0.0  63.3  81.7  -18.4
 2  Jeter, Derek          70.1   0.0  70.1  83.7  -13.6
 3  Samuel, Juan          13.6   0.0  13.6  26.4  -12.8
 4  Yost, Eddie           30.3   0.0  30.3  42.5  -12.2
 5  Bonilla, Bobby        32.1  -0.1  32.2  44.3  -12.1
 6  Williams, Bernie      47.3   0.0  47.3  59.3  -12.0
 7  Monday, Rick          32.7   0.0  32.7  44.6  -11.9
 8  Ramirez, Manny        67.5   0.0  67.5  79.3  -11.8
 8  Tartabull, Danny      20.9   0.0  20.9  32.7  -11.8
10  Gutierrez, Ricky      -3.4   0.0  -3.4   8.1  -11.5
11  Madlock, Bill         35.4   0.0  35.4  46.8  -11.4
12  Aspromonte, Bob       -1.0   0.0  -1.0  10.1  -11.1
13  Gomez, Chris          -3.6   0.0  -3.6   7.4  -11.0
14  Harrah, Toby          47.1   0.0  47.1  58.0  -10.9
15  Burroughs, Jeff       17.2   0.0  17.2  27.9  -10.7
16  Allen, Dick           61.2   0.0  61.2  71.8  -10.6
16  Duncan, Mariano        0.7   0.0   0.7  11.3  -10.6
16  Johnson, Howard       25.0   0.0  25.0  35.6  -10.6
19  Howard, Frank         39.4   0.0  39.4  49.9  -10.5
19  Orta, Jorge           10.1   0.0  10.1  20.6  -10.5
21  Morales, Jerry        -3.9   0.0  -3.9   6.3  -10.2
22  Dunston, Shawon       10.0   0.0  10.0  20.1  -10.1
23  Stairs, Matt          14.0   0.0  14.0  23.9   -9.9
24  Delahanty, Jim        15.6  -0.2  15.8  25.6   -9.8
24  Murcer, Bobby         32.7   0.0  32.7  42.5   -9.8
24  Palmer, Dean          10.1   0.0  10.1  19.9   -9.8
24  Wigginton, Ty          1.8   0.0   1.8  11.6   -9.8
28  Kuenn, Harvey         24.3   0.0  24.3  34.0   -9.7
29  Matthews, Gary        30.5   0.0  30.5  40.0   -9.5
30  Bichette, Dante        2.0   0.0   2.0  11.3   -9.3
30  Ramirez, Rafael        3.1   0.0   3.1  12.4   -9.3
32  Winfield, Dave        59.7   0.0  59.7  68.9   -9.2
33  Butler, Brett         46.5   0.0  46.5  55.6   -9.1
34  Moreland, Keith        2.4   0.0   2.4  11.4   -9.0
35  Teahen, Mark          -0.7   0.0  -0.7   8.2   -8.9
36  Carter, Joe           16.5   0.0  16.5  25.1   -8.6
36  Kessinger, Don         5.0   0.0   5.0  13.6   -8.6
36  Sievers, Roy          27.5   0.0  27.5  36.1   -8.6
39  Rojas, Cookie          4.0   0.0   4.0  12.5   -8.5
40  Hulswitt, Rudy        -1.0   0.0  -1.0   7.4   -8.4
40  Parrish, Larry        13.9   0.0  13.9  22.3   -8.4
40  Taveras, Frank        -1.0   0.0  -1.0   7.4   -8.4
43  Piazza, Mike          59.1   0.0  59.1  67.4   -8.3
44  Gonzalez, Juan        33.5   0.0  33.5  41.7   -8.2
44  LeFlore, Ron          14.3   0.0  14.3  22.5   -8.2
46  Giambi, Jason         52.8   0.0  52.8  60.9   -8.1
46  Luzinski, Greg        28.2   0.0  28.2  36.3   -8.1
46  Zeile, Todd           15.0  -0.3  15.3  23.4   -8.1
49  Grieve, Ben            6.7   0.0   6.7  14.7   -8.0
49  LeMaster, Johnnie     -7.4   0.0  -7.4   0.6   -8.0
49  Young, Ralph          -1.6   0.0  -1.6   6.4   -8.0
52  Biggio, Craig         66.2   0.0  66.2  74.1   -7.9
52  Gutteridge, Don        0.4   0.0   0.4   8.3   -7.9
52  Wagner, Leon          13.6   0.0  13.6  21.5   -7.9
55  McCovey, Willie       65.1   0.0  65.1  72.9   -7.8
56  Buhner, Jay           20.1   0.0  20.1  27.8   -7.7
56  Cordero, Wil           3.2   0.0   3.2  10.9   -7.7
56  Hawpe, Brad            3.5   0.0   3.5  11.2   -7.7
59  Bannister, Alan        1.6   0.0   1.6   9.2   -7.6
59  Barrett, Michael       0.3   0.0   0.3   7.9   -7.6
59  Killebrew, Harmon     61.1   0.0  61.1  68.7   -7.6
62  Bell, Gus             14.3   0.0  14.3  21.8   -7.5
62  Bottomley, Jim        32.4   0.0  32.4  39.9   -7.5
62  Durham, Ray           32.7   0.0  32.7  40.2   -7.5
62  Lobert, Hans          21.7   0.0  21.7  29.2   -7.5
62  Offerman, Jose        12.3   0.0  12.3  19.8   -7.5
67  Johnson, Deron         5.1   0.0   5.1  12.5   -7.4
68  Chase, Hal            22.6   0.0  22.6  29.9   -7.3
68  Cora, Joey             4.5   0.0   4.5  11.8   -7.3
68  Giles, Brian          42.7   0.0  42.7  50.0   -7.3
68  Lynch, Jerry           2.1   0.0   2.1   9.4   -7.3
68  Thomas, Frank         75.9   0.0  75.9  83.2   -7.3
68  Wilson, Preston        5.2   0.0   5.2  12.5   -7.3
74  Gaston, Cito          -2.5   0.0  -2.5   4.7   -7.2
74  Mantilla, Felix        3.3   0.0   3.3  10.5   -7.2
74  Sax, Steve            17.5   0.0  17.5  24.7   -7.2
74  Schaefer, Germany      8.9  -0.2   9.1  16.3   -7.2
74  Thompson, Fresco      -1.0   0.0  -1.0   6.2   -7.2
79  Ashby, Alan            8.4   0.0   8.4  15.5   -7.1
79  Blauser, Jeff         21.4   0.0  21.4  28.5   -7.1
79  Covington, Wes         7.9   0.0   7.9  15.0   -7.1
79  Davis, Eric           34.0   0.0  34.0  41.1   -7.1
79  Jackson, Sonny        -1.3   0.0  -1.3   5.8   -7.1
79  Klesko, Ryan          26.7   0.0  26.7  33.8   -7.1
79  Mazzilli, Lee         15.9   0.0  15.9  23.0   -7.1
79  Stillwell, Kurt        2.2   0.0   2.2   9.3   -7.1
79  Wambsganss, Bill       0.8   0.0   0.8   7.9   -7.1
88  Young, Mike           24.9   0.0  24.9  31.9   -7.0
89  Grubb, Johnny         14.1   0.0  14.1  21.0   -6.9
89  Hart, Jim Ray         23.8   0.0  23.8  30.7   -6.9
89  Lewis, Mark           -3.7   0.0  -3.7   3.2   -6.9
92  Abbaticchio, Ed        5.9   0.0   5.9  12.7   -6.8
92  Thomas, Derrel         2.5   0.0   2.5   9.3   -6.8
92  Watson, Bob           30.5   0.0  30.5  37.3   -6.8
95  Dietz, Dick           13.0   0.0  13.0  19.7   -6.7
95  Harris, Vic           -7.7   0.0  -7.7  -1.0   -6.7
95  O'Leary, Charley      -1.9   0.0  -1.9   4.8   -6.7
95  Stricker, Cub         -5.2   0.5  -5.7   1.0   -6.7
95  Sutherland, Gary      -7.0   0.0  -7.0  -0.3   -6.7
95  Taubensee, Ed          4.9   0.0   4.9  11.6   -6.7
95  Tejada, Miguel        42.0   0.0  42.0  48.7   -6.7
95  Washington, Claudell  18.2   0.0  18.2  24.9   -6.7

If anyone wants a longer list, let me know.

[Joltin' Joe]

Nice work and thank you very much for sharing! Some very surprising ones in there. I would've never thought of Murcer for one!

[Beady]

What is defensive replacement level? i must say, the concept of a replacement level makes sense to me in a very abstract way when applied to total value, but not when applied to any one facet of the game. But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..

[RuthMayBond]

Bernie Williams < Manny?
Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
Butler < Joe Carter?
And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

Sorry, not buying this one

[DJC]

Well, as I don't quite know exactly what goes into calculating WAR, I can't vouch for its accuracy in determining relative player value. I have found that more objective assessments of player value often clash with more subjective ones. Which is more "right" is of course debatable.

[Brooklyn]

There isn't such a list. I made it myself with data I compiled from BB-Reference. As I promised Brooklyn, I'll post my list here momentarily.

thanks for sharing

[PVNICK]

Bernie Williams < Manny?
Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
Butler < Joe Carter?
And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

Sorry, not buying this one

These are "counting" numbers not percentages. That being said how bad must Bob Aspromonte have been to make this list????

[RuthMayBond]

Well, as I don't quite know exactly what goes into calculating WAR, I can't vouch for its accuracy in determining relative player value. I have found that more objective assessments of player value often clash with more subjective ones. Which is more "right" is of course debatable.

dWAR may or may not be more objective. Set up polls about my questions in post 80 & see who wins

[Joltin' Joe]

But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..

Very good point!

[DJC]

dWAR may or may not be more objective. Set up polls about my questions in post 80 & see who wins

Yes, but like the method chosen to calculate WAR ultimately is, polls are subjective too.

These are "counting" numbers not percentages.

RMB: Nick makes a good point here.

[RuthMayBond]

Yes, but like the method chosen to calculate WAR ultimately is, polls are subjective too.

True, but you're getting a consensus, not ONE person's formula



<RMB: Nick makes a good point here.>

Point taken, but which side of those comparisons would you still side with?

[ian2813]

Bernie Williams < Manny?
Murcer & Mathews < Bichette?
Butler < Joe Carter?
And Luzinski better than all the guys on the left? (AND the right)?

Sorry, not buying this one

I think position is taken into account. Manny Ramirez is "better" than Bernie Williams because he's a corner outfielder and Williams was a center fielder. A poor fielder in left does less damage to your team than a poor fielder in center.

[DJC]

True, but you're getting a consensus, not ONE person's formula

Fair enough. However, a consensus of opinions is not necessarily any more accurate than a single opinion. People may be swayed by a player's inclusion in the Hall, awards that they've won, past and potentially outdated assessments by noted historians of how "great" a player is, or simply peer pressure. Working from the numbers helps to keep the assessment of player value more grounded and concrete, even if sabermetricians have yet to agree on what formulas are best.

<RMB: Nick makes a good point here.>

Point taken, but which side of those comparisons would you still side with?

I really have no idea. As I've said, I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough about the history of the sport to give an educated, subjective estimation of most players' overall defensive contributions. I can only go by hearsay (which is of course not always that reliable) and what the numbers can tell us.

[BigRon]

What is defensive replacement level? i must say, the concept of a replacement level makes sense to me in a very abstract way when applied to total value, but not when applied to any one facet of the game. But at any rate, if they've set replacement level to a value that is even moderately high, the negative values are going to look odd and mediocre defenders who played a long time will get very big negative numbers that exaggerate how bad they were as fielders..

I believe that DWAR uses AVERAGE defensive performance at a position as the reference point. How they define/calculate average, I have no idea.

[Joltin' Joe]

I believe that DWAR uses AVERAGE defensive performance at a position as the reference point. How they define/calculate average, I have no idea.

The reference point for the "replacement player" used by dWAR certainly seems much higher than the "replacement player" used by BP for calculating FRAR, and closer to the "average player" used by BP for calculating FRAA. dWAR for Jeter concurs much more with FRAA than FRAR. So my take on this is that the "replacement player" used by dWAR is indeed an average MLB player and not the AAA level scrub used by BP.

[Killercubbies]

Jim Ray Hart had a three year span where he went 30/90/.290 in the mid 60's. He split time between 3rd and the OF where he managed a laughable combined .929 FA for a -6.9 def WAR which encompassed basically 6 or 7 full seansons with a -2.1 in 1965. Big bat, left his glove at the house, for 11 years.