Team Halls of Fame general discussion thread

[DoubleX]

Here's what I'll do. Anyone who ever appeared for a franchise will technically be eligible as a player, but I will add some language urging that players should be considered based on their long-term impact on the franchise, and to encourage that, in the first post of each election I will list all players for the franchise who:

- Had at least 3000 PA
- Had at least 1000 IP or appeared it at least 250 games

How's that? I'm also not going to do it by poll, but the fact that I will provide an extensive list should greatly assist voters in putting together their ballots.

Also, as I mentioned, contributors are not my forte, so I probably won't post a list of suggested contributors and I'll leave it to voters to come up with their own, in the hope that through the conversation and ability to amend ballots, contributors will get their due.

Also, a person's overall contributions to the team are to be considered, so no need to elect a person twice to one Hall if he contributed as a both a player and say manager. In that case, the one election should cover everything that player contributed.

EDIT: I am also going to change the retirement provision to specify that players will be eligible upon either officially retiring (such as Ken Griffey Jr) or after having been out of professional baseball on any level for an entire season without having been sidelined with injury (such as Pedro Martinez but not Carlos Delgado or Brandon Webb).

[Ace Venom]

I think franchise Hall of Fames should be a bit more liberal with their inclusiveness because even a short term impact could have significant implications on a franchise. I'd considered doing a Cubs Hall of Fame upon the completion of the Progressive HoF project. One of the things I realized is that something like this is far more subjective than the Progressive HoF. A significant impact could either be over the long term or through the short term. Obviously free agency comes into play here, but certain trades before the end of the reserve clause had an impact in the short term as well.

[DoubleX]

I think franchise Hall of Fames should be a bit more liberal with their inclusiveness because even a short term impact could have significant implications on a franchise. I'd considered doing a Cubs Hall of Fame upon the completion of the Progressive HoF project. One of the things I realized is that something like this is far more subjective than the Progressive HoF. A significant impact could either be over the long term or through the short term. Obviously free agency comes into play here, but certain trades before the end of the reserve clause had an impact in the short term as well.

That was my thinking as well, and now that I'm compiling a sample lists of Cubs players using the thresholds I posted in post 26, I'm thinking maybe I will just go back to leaving it open ended for voters to decide. As you mentioned, team Halls are necessarily going to have a large element of subjectivity. Who am I to impose arbitrary thresholds?

To assist voters though, I'll post links to the baseball-reference.com team pages for batting and pitching leaders and batting and pitching statistics. I'll also list players players that received awards with the team and players selected to multiple All Star games with the team.

[jjpm74]

I think that any player who had a significant impact on a given team's pennant run should also be eligible. Particularly for teams that only have a handful of post seasons in their franchise history.

[jalbright]

I'd like to know if you intend to try and do the 19th century and/or Negro League "halls" I suggested. I'd certainly be willing to help on the Negro League one and most of the 19th century ones, though the data should be available for those. The one I'd need more help with would be the pre 1871 group. If you don't do them, I probably will at some point.

[DoubleX]

Here's a sample of what the first post in an election will look like. Comments are still welcome.

FORMAT AND RULES

Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each franchise whereby each franchise will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that franchise's history.

Standards: Each franchise has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another franchise's history. Standards from franchise to franchise will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the franchises or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the franchise in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a franchise's Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

Election Format: Elections will be conducted one franchise at a time starting in chronological order with the oldest currently operational franchise. Each election will last approximately five days.
- Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. There is no minimum ballot size.
- Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
- Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of the ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame.
- Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each franchise, a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in chronological order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

Eligibility:
- Players: Players may be considered by any currently operational franchise for which they appeared and are eligible either immediately upon officially retiring or after having not appeared at any level of professional baseball for an entire season for reasons not due to injury.
- Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to a franchise may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters. Contributors that are still active may only be elected by their current employing franchise, and cannot be considered by prior employing franchises until no longer active (this does not apply to individuals who are employed by a franchise only in nominal and/or non-integral ways, such as in consulting or public relations capacities).
- Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of voting limits on ballot size, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise.
- Relocations/Renaming: Franchises that have relocated and/or been renamed, may still consider individuals that were with the franchise prior to the relocation/renaming.
- Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.


CHICAGO CUBS - ROUND ONE

Franchise History
- Founded: 1876 (National League throughout existence)
- Former Locations/Names: Chicago White Stockings (1876-1889); Chicago Colts (1890-1897); Chicago Orphans (1898-1902)

Titles
- World Series Championships: 2 (1907, 1908)
- Pennants: 16 (1876, 1880, 1881, 1882, 1885, 1886, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910, 1918, 1929, 1932, 1935, 1938, 1945)
- Division Titles: 5 (1984, 1989, 2003, 2007, 2008)
- Wild Card Berths: 1 (1998)

Helpful Links
The following links are all courtesy of baseball-reference.com and may assist voters in determining a player's impact on this franchise:
- All Batters
- All Pitchers
- Batting Leaders
- Pitching Leaders
- Most Common Starters
- Managers

Award Recipients
- MVP Recipients (10): Sammy Sosa (1998); Andre Dawson (1987); Ryne Sandberg (1984); Ernie Banks (1959); Ernie Banks (1958); Hank Sauer (1952); Phil Cavaretta (1945); Gabby Hartnett (1935); Rogers Hornsby (1929); Frank Schulte (1911)
- Cy Young Recipients (4): Greg Maddux (1992); Rick Sutcliffe (1984); Bruce Sutter (1979); Fergie Jenkins (1971);
- RoY Recipients (5): Geovany Soto (2008); Kerry Wood (1998); Jerome Walton (1989); Ken Hubbs (1962); Billy Williams (1961)
- Batting Triple Crown (0):
- Pitching Triple Crown (2): Pete Alexander (1920); Hippo Vaughn (1918)

Multiple All Star Selections

Rank 	Player			Selections
1	Ernie Banks		14
2	Ryne Sandberg		10
3	Ron Santo		9
t4	Billy Herman		7
t4	Sammy Sosa		7
t6	Gabby Harnett		6
t6	Don Kessinger		6
t6	Billy Williams		6
t9	Andre Dawson		5
t9	Stan Hack		5
t9	Bill Nicholson		5
t9	Andy Pafko		5
t9	Claude Passeau		5
t14	Glenn Beckert		4
t14	Phil Cavaretta		4
t14	Bruce Sutter		4
t17	George Altman		3
t17	Mark Grace		3
t17	Fergie Jenkins		3
t17	Lon Warneke		3
t17	Carlos Zambrano*	3
t22	Jody Davis		2
t22	Frank Demaree		2
t22	Shawon Dunston		2
t22	Leon Durham		2
t22	Don Elston		2
t22	Randy Jackson		2
t22	Don Johnson		2
t22	Dave Kingman		2
t22	Bill Lee		2
t22	Derrek Lee*		2
t22	Hank Leiber		2
t22	Greg Maddux		2
t22	Clyde McCullough	2
t22	Randy Myers		2
t22	Aramis Ramirez*		2
t22	Bob Rush		2
t22	Hank Sauer		2
t22	Johnny Schmitz		2
t22	Lee Smith		2
t22	Alfonso Soriano*	2
t22	Rick Sutcliffe		2
t22	Kerry Wood*		2
t22	Don Zimmer		2

* Player is currently active

Notable Player List
The following is a list of inactive players who with this franchise had at least 3,000 plate appearances (or 2,500 if predominantly played during 19th Century), 1,000 innings pitch, or 200 games pitched. This list is purely meant as a guide for players who contributed to this franchise over some modicum of time, though players with this franchise not appearing on this list may still be considered by voters.

Player (119)
Terry Adams
Pete Alexander
Bob Anderson
Cap Anson
Paul Assenmacher
Ernie Banks
Glenn Beckert
Sheriff Blake
Bill Bonham
Mordecai Brown
Bill Buckner
Tom Burns
Ray Burris
Guy Bush
Nixey Callahan
Jose Cardenal
Phil Cavaretta
Frank Chance
Larry Cheney
John Clarkson
Larry Corcoran
Kiki Cuyler
Bill Dahlen
Abner Dalrymple
Jody Davis
Andre Dawson
Ivan de Jesus
Shawon Dunston
Leon Durham
Dick Ellsworth
Don Elston
Woody English
Paul Erickson
Bill Everitt
Johnny Evers
Max Flack
Silver Flint
Dee Fondy
Larry French
Augie Galan
Fred Goldsmith
George Gore
Mark Grace
Clark Griffith
Charlie Grimm
Warren Hacker
Bill Hands
Gabby Hartnett
Cliff Heathcote
Claude Hendrix
Felix Heredia
Billy Herman
Willie Hernandez
Glen Hobbie
Solly Hofman
Charlie Hollocher
Ken Holtzman
Bob Howry
Randy Hundley
Bill Hutchinson
Fergie Jenkins
Percy Jones
Billy Jurges
Tony Kaufmann
King Kelly
Don Kessinger
Johnny Kling
Les Lancaster
Bill Lange
Terry Larkin
Jimmy Lavender
Bill Lee
Turk Lown
Carl Lundgren
Greg Maddux
Pat Malone
Sean Marshall
Barry McCormick
Paul Minner
Keith Moreland
Bill Nicholson
Orval Overall
Andy Pafko
Claude Passeau
Fred Pfeffer
Jack Pfiester
Phil Regan
Ed Reulbach
Rick Reuschel
Charlie Root
Bob Rush
Jimmy Ryan
Vic Saier
Ryne Sandberg
Ron Santo
Hank Sauer
Johnny Schmitz
Frank Shulte
Jimmy Sheckard
Jimmy Slagle
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Riggs Stephenson
Rick Sutcliffe
Bruce Sutter
Jack Taylor
Dick Tidrow
Joe Tinker
Steve Trachsel
Manny Trillo
Hippo Vaughn
Lon Warneke
Billy Williams
Ned Williamson
Walt Wilmot
Hack Wilson
Hank Wyse
Heinie Zimmerman

Managers

Manager			Games		Win %	WS Titles	Pennants	Div Titles	Wild Cards
Joe Altobelli		1		.000		
Joey Amalfitano		185		.363				
Cap Anson		2258		.579			5
Dusty Baker		648		.497				
Don Baylor		407		.459					1	
Lou Boudreau		139		.394			
Roger Bresnahan		157		.477			
Tom Burns		304		.537		
Phil Cavaretta		384		.442		
Frank Chance		1178		.664	2		4
Harry Craft		16		.438		
Leo Durocher		1065		.504		
Lee Elia		285		.446		
Jim Essian		122		.484		
Johnny Evers		251		.518		
Bob Ferguson		61		.500		
Silver Flint		19		.294		
Charlie Fox		39		.436		
Herman Franks		479		.497		
Jim Frey		379		.519					1
Frankie Frisch		339		,418		
George Gibson		26		.462		
Preston Gomez		90		.422		
Charlie Grimm		1737		.547			3
Stan Hack		465		.425		
Gabby Hartnett		383		.536			1
Vedie Himsl		32		.323		
Rogers Hornsby		259		.549		
Roy Johnson		1		.000		
Bob Kennedy		382		.479		
Bill Killefer		596		.506		
Bruce Kimm		78		.423		
Lou Klein		147		.442		
Rene Lachemann		1		.000		
Jim Lefebvre		324		.500		
Whitey Lockman		319		.492		
Tom Loftus		286		.423		
Frank Lucchesi		25		.320		
Rabbit Maranville	53		.434		
Jim Marshall		393		.445		
Joe McCarthy		770		.579			1
Charlie Metro		112		.384		
Gene Michael		238		.479		
Fred Mitchell		582		.534			1
Hank O’Day		156		.506		
Lou Piniella		609		.519					1	
Mike Quade		37		.649		
Jim Riggleman		794		.472							1
Bob Scheffing		465		.450		
Frank Selee		503		.568		
Al Spalding		126		.624			1
El Tappe		117		.397		
Joe Tinker		156		.438		
Tom Trebelhorn		113		.434		
John Vukovich		2		.500		
Jimmie Wilson		474		.452		
Don Zimmer		525		.507					1

[DoubleX]

I think that any player who had a significant impact on a given team's pennant run should also be eligible. Particularly for teams that only have a handful of post seasons in their franchise history.

Yeah, I think I'll leave so that anyone who ever appeared with that team will be eligible for that team. I'll provide a list of players who spent a certain modicum of time with the team using the cutoffs above just a helpful starting point for voters, but that list won't be intended to be all inclusive.

I'd like to know if you intend to try and do the 19th century and/or Negro League "halls" I suggested. I'd certainly be willing to help on the Negro League one and most of the 19th century ones, though the data should be available for those. The one I'd need more help with would be the pre 1871 group. If you don't do them, I probably will at some point.

I was planning on only doing current franchises. I guess I was envisioning visiting a team's stadium and seeing this Hall of Fame there. If you want to delve into defunct teams, be my guest (though maybe we should hold off on them until we do at least one round with every current team).

[jalbright]

I won't do the defunct teams and Negro Leagues before I'm done with the Birthplace project, at the earliest. I certainly want there to be at least a team or two in this project, and I can choose what to model from it and what to tweak. I'll probably also seek pre 1871 nominations before starting.

[Paul Wendt]

An interesting idea. The Reds actually have a museum that houses their Hall of Fame right next to GABP. Plaques for every member, very nice place. There are a number of guys in the Reds Hall that the non-Reds fan would probably overlook...every position starter for the Big Red Machine except Rose is there, Geronimo being inducted just a couple of years ago, along with a few of the pitchers. From more recent years, we have Tom Browning, Chris Sabo, and Jose Rijo - who may or may not garner any attention in a forum like this. As long as there is a participant fairly knowledgeable about the team to facilitate discussion, though, I suppose it could work.

The Cincinnati Reds define their "team" in a way that may be unusual, or may be unusual for clubs currently in MLB. The Reds include the original NL club which lost its franchise after 1880 and they include the Cincinnati Red Stockings of 1869-1870 (the first all-professional nine in 1869) or 1866-1870 (the club established and Harry Wright hired in 1866).

[Paul Wendt]

I think that any player who had a significant impact on a given team's pennant run should also be eligible. Particularly for teams that only have a handful of post seasons in their franchise history.

I agree.
If Florida Marlins fans hate Kevin Brown, I'm not aware of it.
I expect that I would vote for him in a setting like this.

[Paul Wendt]

... I guess I was envisioning visiting a team's stadium and seeing this Hall of Fame there.

with "Expos" at National Park, "Browns" at Camden Yards, etc?

[hairmetalfreek]

The Cincinnati Reds define their "team" in a way that may be unusual, or may be unusual for clubs currently in MLB. The Reds include the original NL club which lost its franchise after 1880 and they include the Cincinnati Red Stockings of 1869-1870 (the first all-professional nine in 1869) or 1866-1870 (the club established and Harry Wright hired in 1866).

I'm okay with this...the original franchise is a big part of this city, and even though it's not officially the same, there is no other team to associate it with today.

[jjpm74]

How much should we factor in a player's impact on the fans? For example, Sammy Sosa was a major draw for the Cubs and a fan favorite when he played there. Reggie Jackson is Mr. October, but didn't do much with the Yankees. If a team HOF were to exist, I assume it would be located at the given team's ballpark where the primary customers would be fans looking to find out more about their favorite players. Shouldn't popularity factor in a bit in out decisions? I'm conflicted on this.

[Paul Wendt]

On the other hand, current popularity wouldn't be the only consideration even for a purely commercial enterprise. I doubt that many fans (will) travel to visit a team/club/franchise hall of fame or a more general museum. Rather, it must be(come) common to see the hof or museum as a byproduct of going to a home game. The purpose of particular exhibits may be educational, albeit in a commercial sense. For example, the Chicago Cubs might plan to grow a market for replica 1880s jerseys by promoting the 5-time champion team.

Along the same lines, any current club with a long history has some incentive to induct gradually from all time periods. For short, we may say to induct both its early players and its players from living memory gradually, rather than to induct all of the recent players first. Living players, especially, and those with living children provide the occasion for a ceremony that may be an attraction; at least, it is a merchandise sales occasion. By inducting one early and one late player every year, for example, the club may "pace" both the investment in its early history and the ceremonies.

--
In fact the Cincinnati Reds club has pursued such a parallel development or exploitation of both its ancient history and its living stars, iiuc. The other classic clubs have various incentives to follow suit. Presumably those with greatest incentive are those with more champions from the more distant past, and those who have remained in one city.
: Reds (done)
: Cubs, Cardinals
: Pirates, White Sox, Red Sox, Tigers
: Phillies --maybe behind the next group
: Braves, Giants, Dodgers, Athletics in that order, if the current clubs will develop Boston, New York, Brooklyn, and Philadelphia histories

The four other classic clubs have little or no history of success and few stars before earliest living memory: Indians, Yankees, Senators/Twins, Browns/Orioles. Certainly the Expos/Nationals are the current mlb club most likely to make much of the Senators/Twins early history; in the spirit of this thread, by a "Washington" baseball hall of fame or museum. Probably the Cardinals are the one most likely to make much of the Browns/Orioles early history, by a "St Louis" themed effort.

The Red Sox and Phillies might make something of the NL Braves and AL Athletics histories, but I'm not sure they are stronger candidates than the current Atlanta and Oakland ballclubs to do so. (Atlanta does have some hof/museum that covers or claims all of Braves history, i think i recall hearing.) About the SF Giants and LA Dodgers, your guess is as good as mine and your knowledge may be better. As far as I know, the Mets chose their color combination to claim both NY Giants and Bro Dodgers histories but they never followed up.

The Tigers might develop the 1890s (minor WL) and 1880s (NL) history of pro baseball in Detroit.
The Indians might do similarly regarding Cleveland.
The Orioles might re Baltimore.
The Nationals might re Washington.
The Phillies might re Philadelphia, at least the 1870s and 1860s history.

[DoubleX]

How much should we factor in a player's impact on the fans? For example, Sammy Sosa was a major draw for the Cubs and a fan favorite when he played there. Reggie Jackson is Mr. October, but didn't do much with the Yankees. If a team HOF were to exist, I assume it would be located at the given team's ballpark where the primary customers would be fans looking to find out more about their favorite players. Shouldn't popularity factor in a bit in out decisions? I'm conflicted on this.

I think it's a perfectly fair factor to consider. The only problem is in this project is that we're all not fans of a particularly team, so it may be difficult for some of us to grasp the subjective importance of a player to a franchise that we haven't closely followed as a fan. This goes back to my vote for Phil Cavarretta. Objectively, he may seem like a bit of a headscratcher, but I believe his stature is much higher within the Cubs organization, where in between the Hartnett/Wilson/Herman years of the 30s and the Banks/Santo/Williams years of the 60s, Cavarretta was a fixture and face of the franchise. In sum though, and as I put in the instructions, subjectivity has a role in this project because it's about honoring individuals that mean something to the franchise, not just a cold look at numbers.

Jackson is another good example, though as a Yankees fan, I do get troubled with how much he's now associated with the Yankees (as say opposed to his actual primary team, the A's). Jackson had that great WS game and was certainly a personality, perhaps the forerunner in many ways for today's primadonna athletes, but ultimately he played just 5 seasons with the Yankees and that doesn't really strike me as enough of a contribution given the competition among Yankees greats. Nevertheless, Jackson has been with the Yankees organization for years now and I'm sure he'll get some votes due to how well Jackson and the Yankees have intertwined their legacies.

Reggie's teammate, Thurman Munson, is another good example of how this project should be approached. Based just on the numbers, Munson is probably best described as a grey area player for the actual Hall of Fame, and his numbers certainly don't stack up with prior Yankees backstops Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey. Still, Munson was a Yankees favorite, the "captain" (for whatever that's worth in baseball), and his loss is still grieved by Yankees fans. Put those subjective factors together with what was a good career, and Munson, IMO, should be a no brainer for the Yankees Hall of Fame. Elston Howard is probably another Yankee whose subjective Yankees factors should give him a strong argument for the Yankees Hall of Fame.

[jalbright]

I've compiled lists for the AA and defunct franchises. Can someone provide me with lists of all players who:
1) had at least 800 PA in the National Association (if there aren't at least 25-30, I could go down to 500)
2) had at least 500 IP in the National Association.

I'll also take suggestions for players before 1871.

[jalbright]

I've got a Negro League list as well

The HOFers elected before 2006: Hilton Smith, Turkey Stearnes, Joe Williams, Larry Doby, Bullet Joe Rogan, Willie Wells, Bill Foster, Rube Foster, Leon Day, Martin Dihigo, Pop Lloyd, Judy Johnson, Cool Papa Bell, Monte Irvin, Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Buck Leonard, Satchel Paige and Ray Dandridge

A few who have come up here at Fever: Bus Clarkson, Perucho Cepeda, Diomedes Olivo, Quincy Trouppe, Will Jackman

and the 2006 nominees (includes those elected that time around): Newt Allen - Walter Ball - Sam Bankhead - Bernardo Baro - John Beckwith - William Bell - Ed Bolden - Chet Brewer - Chester Brooks - Dave Brown - Larry Brown - Ray Brown - Willard Brown - Bill Byrd - Rev Cannady - Bill Cash - Phil Cockrell - Pancho Coimbre - Andy Cooper - Bingo DeMoss - Rap Dixon - John Donaldson - Frank Duncan - José Fernandez - Bud Fowler - Jelly Gardner - Charlie Grant - Frank Grant - Gus Greenlee - Vic Harris - Pete Hill - Bill Holland - Sammy T. Hughes - Fats Jenkins - Sam Jethroe - Home Run Johnson - Oscar Johnson - Henry Kimbro - Frank Leland - Dick Lundy - Jimmie Lyons - Biz Mackey - Dave Malarcher - Abe Manley - Effa Manley - Max Manning - Oliver Marcelle - J. B. Martin - Horacio Martinez - Verdell Mathis - Dan McClellan - Hurley McNair - José Méndez - Minnie Miñoso - Bill Monroe - Dobie Moore - Alejandro Oms - Buck O'Neil - Red Parnell - John Patterson - Jap Payne - Bruce Petway - Spottswood Poles - Alex Pompez - Cumberland Posey - Alex Radcliffe - Ted Radcliffe - Dick Redding - Neal Robinson - Nat Rogers - Louis Santop - George Scales - Chino Smith - Clarence Smith - George Stovey - Mule Suttles - Ben Taylor - C. I. Taylor - Candy Jim Taylor - Cristóbal Torriente - Juan Vargas - Moses Walker - Frank Warfield - Chaney White - Sol White - Frank Wickware - Wabishaw Wiley - J.L. Wilkinson - Clarence Williams - George Williams - George Wilson - Jud Wilson - Nip Winters - Bill Wright

If you have suggestions not on this list, please make them.

[DJC]

NA Players with 500+ PA

1. Andy Leonard (1433)
2. Al Spalding (1429)
3. Ross Barnes (1416)
4. George Wright (1404)
5. Ned Cuthbert (1329)
6. Davy Force (1325)
7. Joe Start (1324)
8. Dave Eggler (1321)
9. Cal McVey (1321)
10. Deacon White (1305)
11. Tom York (1295)
12. Everett Mills (1283)
13. Lip Pike (1271)
14. Tom Carey (1251)
15. Mike McGeary (1240)
16. Harry Schafer (1228)
17. Dickey Pearce (1226)
18. Cap Anson (1208)
19. Dick Higham (1198)
20. Dick McBride (1193)
21. Bob Ferguson (1176)
22. George Hall (1151)
23. John McMullin (1121)
24. Bobby Mathews (1116)
25. Bill Craver (1103)
26. Jim O'Rourke (1100)
27. Ezra Sutton (1084)
28. Levi Meyerle (1076)
29. Wes Fisler (1070)
30. Doug Allison (1062)
31. Jack Burdock (1054)
32. Cherokee Fisher (1031)
33. John Hatfield (1030)
34. Chick Fulmer (1029)
35. Jack Remsen (1023)
36. George Bechtel (997)
37. Scott Hastings (997)
38. Fred Treacey (993)
39. Fergy Malone (984)
40. George Zettlein (981)
41. Jim Holdsworth (965)
42. Nat Hicks (943)
43. John Glenn (909)
44. Candy Cummings (905)
45. Herman Dehlman (887)
46. Candy Nelson (858)
47. Bob Addy (853)
48. Count Gedney (845)
49. Harry Wright (843)
50. Denny Mack (826)
51. John Radcliff (825)
52. Paul Hines (815)
53. Eddie Booth (793)
54. John Clapp (769)
55. Charlie Pabor (723)
56. Warren White (707)
57. Tim Murnane (701)
58. Jack Manning (686)
59. Bill Boyd (676)
60. Jim Devlin (628)
61. Charlie Gould (623)
62. Oscar Bielaski (615)
63. Art Allison (614)
64. Tom Barlow (614)
65. John Peters (538)
66. Tommy Bond (535)
67. Pop Snyder (529)
68. Joe Battin (521)
69. Jimmy Wood (513)
70. Tommy Beals (500)

NA Players with 100+ IP

1. Al Spalding (2346.2)
2. Bobby Mathews (2221.2)
3. Dick McBride (2049)
4. George Zettlein (1942.2)
5. Candy Cummings (1778)
6. Cherokee Fisher (1087.2)
7. Tommy Bond (849)
8. Jim Britt (816.2)
9. Bill Stearns (699.2)
10. Asa Brainard (699.2)
11. George Bradley (535.2)
12. Rynie Wolters (367.1)
13. Al Pratt (330.1)
14. Jack Manning (320.2)
15. Tricky Nichols (288)
16. John McMullin (283.1)
17. George Bechtel (243)
18. Mike Golden (232)
19. Jim Devlin (224)
20. John Cassidy (213.2)
21. Hugh Campbell (165)
22. Phonney Martin (156.1)
23. Cy Bentley (144)
24. Jim Clinton (132)
25. Joe Blong (129)
26. Bill Parks (112)
27. Lon Knight (107)
28. Harry Wright (100.1)

[jalbright]

Thanks for the NA list, DJC! Just what I was looking for!

Seeing the size of the NA list, and the difficulties in a pre 1871 list, I'm thinking of combining the two. Any input on the idea is welcome.

[jalbright]

I think for my 19th century teams/leagues and the Negro Leagues that if I don't get at least 8 votes in a round, that will end the pursuit of that particular Hall.

[jjpm74]

Thanks for the NA list, DJC! Just what I was looking for!

Seeing the size of the NA list, and the difficulties in a pre 1871 list, I'm thinking of combining the two. Any input on the idea is welcome.

For the pre-NA players, I think the best way to go is to take a look at the pioneers who received support in the BBFHOF, HOM and Progressive HOF and draw from there. The only person who has not shown up for discussion in one of those three projects who has any kind of case is Octavius Catto.

How exactly do you want to approach the pre-1860 era? Do you want to go back as far as Doc Adams, use Jim Creighton's era as the cutoff, or limit it to the Dickey Pearce era?

[jjpm74]

Back to the weekly threads for this project. DoubleX, could you give us all a 24 hour warning when a thread is about to close? The close of the Cardinals thread took me off guard. For some reason, I had January 26 stuck in my head for the end of that round.

[DoubleX]

Back to the weekly threads for this project. DoubleX, could you give us all a 24 hour warning when a thread is about to close? The close of the Cardinals thread took me off guard. For some reason, I had January 26 stuck in my head for the end of that round.

Will do. The ending time is listed in the first post as well at the start of all the team info.

Based on Jim's comments in the Braves thread, I'll consider extending elections to 7 days form 5. If I do that, I'll re-open the Cubs election for 2 extra days.

Another issue I'm wrestling with is whether to count player and contributor ballots separately. If we only get 10-12 votes each time, it can be very difficult for contributors to be elected if a voter or two decides not to vote for contributors altogether (as happened in the Cubs election). On the other hand, this also raises the issue of what to do with people who could merit both player and contributor consideration. For instance, in the Cubs election, one voter put Frank Chance as a contributor rather than a player. Based on the way I have been tallying, it didn't matter, but if I were to count player and contributor ballots separately, it could matter.

So here's what I'm thinking - I will count player and contributor ballots separately, and if there is doubt about where a person better fits, the voter should try to put that person in the category where the voter feels that person had the most impact on the franchise. I don't think there will be many instances where this will be an issue. The Cubs provided two good test cases - Charlie Grimm and Frank Chance. Grimm, a good example of a so-so player but good manager with a team, received only contributor votes, while Chance, a great player with a relativey short career and a overlapping very successful managerial stint, was largely voted as a player. So if there wasn't much confusion with these two, I don't imagine much will come up in the future with other figures.

[jalbright]

For the pre-NA players, I think the best way to go is to take a look at the pioneers who received support in the BBFHOF, HOM and Progressive HOF and draw from there. The only person who has not shown up for discussion in one of those three projects who has any kind of case is Octavius Catto.

How exactly do you want to approach the pre-1860 era? Do you want to go back as far as Doc Adams, use Jim Creighton's era as the cutoff, or limit it to the Dickey Pearce era?

Why not go back to Doc Adams? The value I see in doing this is that we can learn about guys who are under the radar because of the era. Cutting the time limits that value IMHO. Catto is a good nominee.

[Beady]

Seeing the size of the NA list, and the difficulties in a pre 1871 list, I'm thinking of combining the two. Any input on the idea is welcome.

I'm not that enthusiastic about mixing in the pre-1871 players, but I think you need to stretch out in one direction or the other beyond the NA. The NA by itself is an odd basis for a Hall of Fame. first because it lasts such a brief while. Secondly, it was pretty much a round robin tournament version of the same small group of top teams and players that had dominated the half dozen years after the Civil War, and it was continued in turn by the NL, which was simply an administrative revamp of the NA. So unless baseball institutions are a primary interest (which happens to be the case with me, but I don't think that's the norm), isolating the NA to choose an HOF amounts essentially to picking a five-year period at random -- like naming a special HOF for 1924 to 1928 or 1961 to 1965.

The AA, in comparison, makes more sense. Although ten years is still pretty brief, it comes a lot closer to equalling the career span of a good player than five years does, and the AA segmented a particular portion of the top talent in the game, since there was comparatively little movement of star players between the leagues.