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Thread: Team Halls of Fame general discussion thread

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    I'll second Knoblauch
    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    I'll second Wilson also
    Noted. Thank you, and they are now listed as candidates in post 210.
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  2. #227
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    Doing one more sweep of candidates, I thought of Jacques Doucet for the Expos. He got a real push in the BBF HOF project, and I remember it well. Here's the best post in that push, by Slaff:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSlaff View Post
    For us it wasn't Mel Allen, Red Barber, Ernie Harwell or Vin Scully ... it was JACQUES DOUCET (also an important member of SABR Québec).
    That doesn't mean that I can't recognize the greatness of Allen, Barber, Harwell and Scully. They were GREAT.

    Doucet was a major baseball character not only in Québec (where he is also a social and cultural icon) but also in french community all around the world.

    I think Doucet and Buck Canel were the two most important non-english-broadcasters.

    I know that baseball in Québec is not as strong as japanese baseball (nowhere near) but let's not forget that we were an important part of Major League Baseball for almost four decades and Jacques Doucet was one of the key man in Expos history ... at the same level than Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Vlad Guerrero.

    Don't know if that will convince you but here’s an article that describe much better than I could do (with my poor english ) how important he was:

    ------------------------------

    EXPOS' MOVE MARKS END OF BASEBALL ERA IN FRENCH

    Friday, June 03, 2005

    By Christopher J. Chipello, The Wall Street Journal

    MONTREAL -- For more than three decades, Jacques Doucet was the French-language radio voice of Major League Baseball.

    Many Montreal baby boomers grew up listening to his mellifluous descriptions of lanceurs staring into home plate, frappeurs swinging for the fences and voltigeurs tracking down fly balls at la piste d'avertissement, or warning track.

    But the Expos migrated south and started playing this spring as the Washington Nationals -- the first move by a major-league team since the Washington Senators became the Texas Rangers 33 years earlier. That meant the disappearance of big-league baseball in French from North American airwaves.

    Mr. Doucet and other announcers from the Expos' early days were more than just broadcasters. They also helped hone modern French baseball lingo, polishing terminology that had been adapted from English over the course of a century.

    A 1935 French-English lexicon put out by the Societe du Parler francais au Canada rendered the game, literally if awkwardly, as jeu de balle aux buts, and featured such quaint translations as batteur risque-tout (literally, daredevil batter) for "slugger" and gardien de but, (goalkeeper) for "baseman."

    In 1969, the Expos' first season, the brewery sponsoring the team hosted a symposium for journalists and commentators to hash out terminology for le baseball. The recommendations included such colorful and enduring turns of phrase as balle papillon (butterfly ball) for "knuckleball" and vol-au-sol (theft at the ground) for "shoestring catch."

    But in a game of tactical nuance and long pauses, it often fell to the radio play-by-play men to figure out how best to paint word pictures in respectable French. Over the decades, Mr. Doucet, a former newspaper reporter who switched to broadcasting in 1972, became the acknowledged master of that art.

    When Mr. Doucet described infielders moving to serrer les lignes de demarcation in the late innings of a close game, listeners would envision the players hugging the foul lines to guard against an extra-base hit. And if a frappeur de puissance (as sluggers are now known) hit a fleche (an "arrow," or line drive) into the right-center field allee, listeners held their breath to hear whether the coureur (base-runner) would round third base and file vers le marbre (dash toward the "marble," or home plate).

    Mr. Doucet, "created the perfect words" to bring the action to life, says Jean Lapointe, a popular Quebec entertainer who is now a member of Canada's Senate. "The quality of his language in French was incredible," says Mr. Lapointe, who used to have aides record games during his stage performances so he could listen to them later.

    Sometimes, when groping for the right phrase, the broadcasters would ask listeners for suggestions. When Mr. Doucet and then-commentator Claude Raymond, a former big-league pitcher, couldn't come up with a good translation for "pickoff attempt," a University of Montreal professor came to the rescue with tentative de prendre a contre-pied, Mr. Doucet says. (That translates literally as "attempt to catch on the wrong foot.")

    Beyond coining particular terms, however, Mr. Doucet's special talent lay in depicting baseball in French that "seemed so natural" that "it just worked," says Marc Robitaille, the author of "Un ete sans point ni coup sur," ("No-hit, No-run Summer"), a 2004 novel about a youngster captivated by baseball during the Expos' early days.

    Baseball's 1994 labor stoppage, which led to the breakup of what had been a National League-leading Expos team, marked "the burial" of the franchise, says Montreal anthropologist Serge Bouchard. Still, he says, baseball retains a "very big place" in the "profoundly American" culture of French Canadians.
    Even as attendance dwindled inside gloomy Olympic Stadium during the past decade, Mr. Doucet's accounts of the action remained part of summer's rhythm for thousands of listeners.

    "For some people, summer is a Carlos Jobim song, the singing of birds or the murmur of streams; for me, summer is the voice of Jacques Doucet," mused Stephane Laporte in a column for Montreal's La Presse newspaper, as the Expos' demise began to look inevitable three years ago. "I won't miss millionaire players" or owners, he wrote. "But I'll miss the voice of Jacques Doucet for a long time."

    In recent years, Internet users from France to Russia to Japan also tuned in, often peppering Mr. Doucet and his broadcast partner with emailed comments and questions.

    A group of loyal fans mounted an email campaign to nominate Mr. Doucet for the Hall of Fame's annual broadcasting award for 2005, but the effort fell short. A Hall of Fame spokesman in Cooperstown, N.Y., says Mr. Doucet finished in the top 10 in online fan voting, with "a few thousand votes," but wasn't among the top three who made the final ballot.

    SOURCE: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05154/515468.stm
    Doucet got at least 50% of the vote, so he is on the ballot.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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  3. #228
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    Updated the cumulative list to include the results of 5th round elections for the Dodgers and Braves.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  4. #229
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    Here's a case for Arthur Soden as a contributor for the Braves, no seconding required:

    Quote Originally Posted by Beady View Post
    Soden's responsibility for the reserve clause is generally misunderstood. The NL met in the fall of 1879 to find a way to control player salaries, but after some thought everybody decided the pay scale they had expected to put in place would not work, so they substituted the idea, probably suggested by Soden, of allowing each club to reserve some of its men. Soden may have invented the reserve clause, but it's not as though he imposed tight-fisted, mercenary ways on owners who until then had been generous sportsmen. He simply came up with a way to achieve what all the clubs wanted.

    Soden took over the Boston club by buying out small shareholders during this same period, when it was losing money steadily and clubs generally were failing at such a rate that it must have seemed doubtful professional baseball would ever be a workable business. Buying up the stock can hardly have seemed like a smart business move, and I believe he did it simply to try to make baseball work in Boston, even at the risk of some capital. Had he not done so, Boston would surely not have gone long without professional baseball, but the club we know as the Braves might well have disappeared before 1880. Since he kept them alive when they might have died, Soden is as deserving a choice for the team Hall of Fame as Aaron or Spahn or Maddux or anybody else.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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  5. #230
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    Here's a case by jjpm74 for Fred Tenney of the Braves (no seconding required):

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    Players
    Joe Adcock
    Fred Tenney played more games at first base and is 4th all time in hits for the team with 1994 compared to Joe Adcock's 1206 hits. He is also 5th all time in BA for the team with a .300 BA to Adcock's .285 BA. It's hard to overlook a player who is 7th all time in games played with the team despite shorter seasons than in Adcock's career at the same position. Tenney played played 530 more games for the team at the same position and was a slightly more productive hitter with the Braves.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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  6. #231
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    I think John Schuerholz deserves another shot at induction with the Royals. No second will be needed as he made the 50% vote mark.

    He helped build the strong Royal teams of the late 70's first by working in 1969-75 at various assistant level jobs with the minor league aspect of the franchise. He moved up to Scouting and/or Farm Director roles, and became GM in 1982-1990. He put the finishing touches on the franchise's one World Series championship in 1985, and a team under his regime won another division championship to go with that one. In short, he had a long and productive career in the front office of the franchise.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #232
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    Billy Beane is another guy who needs no second due to reaching the 50% of the vote mark. He deserves a shot at making the A's as a contributor:

    Beane manages a small-market team and must operate on a budget. His modus operandi is to build the team via the draft and trades and to eschew free agents. This has led to short-term complaints when he has elected not to re-sign popular players such as Jason Giambi and Miguel Tejada, or when he traded Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson. Nonetheless few can argue with the success the A's have had under his stewardship. ed: 4 division championships in that time.

    He started in the front office of the A's in 1990 and by 1997 he was the GM. He is known for paying close attention to sabermetrics. Beane has had a high profile as GM. Rob Neyer once wrote an article asking if Beane was on his way to the Hall of Fame, fully cognizant that there are few GM's in the Hall. Some call his style "Beane Ball".

    His big success in 2006 was Frank Thomas. Thomas, after having two injury-plagued seasons in 2004 and 2005, was deemed expendable by the Chicago White Sox. The A's were able to sign him for a mere $500,000 plus incentives. Thomas, who was unable to play during most of spring training, had to use major league games in April as his form of spring training, and thus started very slowly. But he led the A's in both on-base percentage and slugging percentage, and earned $1.5 million in incentives for his play that year. The A's won the AL West title in large part due to Beane signing Frank Thomas.

    The Athletics' own website calls him "progressive and talented", and notes he has a .565 winning percentage - and also notes that in the last six seasons his winning percentage is even higher at .588. Players under his watch have won two MVP awards, one Cy Young Award, and one Rookie of the Year award. Beane doesn't ignore the minors - his teams in the minors played at a .545 clip in 2005. The website continues to note that Beane has been very active in making trades before the trading deadline, and that his teams do even better after the deadline.

    He was the Sporting News Executive of the Year in 1999, and won Baseball America's 2002 award as Major League Baseball's Executive of the Year.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #233
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    I'll put up the case for Ned Hanlon as a contributor for the Dodgers. Yet again, this case requires no second as he reached the 50% vote mark.

    Ned Hanlon won two consecutive pennants in his first two years as manager of the team, in an era when there was only one league (1899 and 1900). He also finished second in the NL in 1902. That's a nice run within four years, and I think it deserves induction into the Dodger hall of fame here.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #234
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    I'll make one more case that doesn't require a second, Dennis Leonard for the Royals:

    Leonard is well represented on the Royal career pitching leaderboards:
    5th in career pitching WAR;
    2d in career wins;
    5th in career won-loss percentage;
    10th in career WHIP;
    3d in career IP;
    3d in career strikeouts; and
    1st in shutouts.

    He was no slouch in individual seasons, either:

    5 times in the top 10 in his league in wins;
    4 times in the top 10 in his league in won-loss percentage;
    4 times in the top 10 in his league in K/ 9 IP;
    5 times in the top 10 in his league in IP;
    5 times in the top 10 in his league in strikeouts;
    6 times in the top 10 in his league in shutouts; and
    5 times in the top 10 in his league in k/ BB ratio.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  10. #235
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    The case for Sal Maglie requires a second, but I don't expect it should be hard to get after I put this nugget out there: Guess who the career leader in career won loss percentage for the Giants is? Not Marquard, McGinnity, Mathewson, Antonelli, Rusie, Keefe, G. Perry, or Welch. It's this guy.

    He had some fine individual season results as well:

    4 times in the top 10 in his league in pitching WAR;
    4 times in the top 10 in his league in ERA (one of them a title);
    4 times in the top 10 in his league in wins (one of them a title);
    4 times in the top 10 in his league in won-loss percentage (one of them a title); and
    5 times in the top 10 in his league in shutouts.

    This guy deserves a spot in the Giant HOF.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  11. #236
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    There's one more case I'll present right now that needs a second: Brandon Webb for the Diamondbacks.

    He ranked in the top 10 in his league:
    5 times in pitching WAR (one first);
    4 times in ERA;
    3 times in wins (actually, 2 firsts and a second);
    3 times in WHIP;
    4 times in IP; and
    3 times in strikeouts.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #237
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    Right now, there are seven franchises without any nominees for the second chance election. I've proposed a candidate for the Giants (Sal Maglie) and the Diamondbacks (Brandon Webb), but they need to be seconded. The remaining five franchises are mostly expansion franchises:

    Astros
    Blue Jays
    Marlins
    Padres
    Tigers.

    I'd say the last is the only surprise at this point.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #238
    Sal Maglie I definitely second. Brandon Webb I will second, but I thought he signed to a minor league deal with some team with the intention of playing in MLB this year.

  14. #239
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    Thanks. I Googled Webb, and after last year's four AA starts in which he got shelled, he had another surgery. In mid-February 2012, he was said to be throwing on "flat ground" and his agent said he'd throw (as in tryout) for a major league team "some time this year". For our purposes, he's done playing. I mean, we took Jamie Moyer, who was a better shot at returning last year than Webb is right now. With that precedent and information, I think it's reasonable to say we can vote on him.

    That gets us down to five franchises without any nominees--and a quick count gives me 46 players and 37 contributor nominees besides those for the American Association (10 players and 11 contributors) and the Cubs (20 players, 3 contributors).
    Last edited by jalbright; 04-01-2012 at 07:57 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  15. #240
    For the Astros, I nominate Turk Farrell:

    For his 5 years with the Astros, he posted the following WAR:

    1962--7.4
    1963--3.9
    1964--4.1
    1965--2.6
    1966--0.3

    That's good enough for 18.3 career WAR with the Astros/Colt45s. During that stretch, he was an All-Star three times. What makes him impressive is his 3.02 ERA in 1962 which was 7th best in the league despite being on a 64-96 expansion team that finished 8th in the league. Farrell is definitely worth a second look.

  16. #241
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    Farrell is on the list as a candidate now.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #242
    Where is the last Blue Jay HOF thread? I looked and did an Advanced Search, but I still cannot locate it. Thanks

  18. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Where is the last Blue Jay HOF thread? I looked and did an Advanced Search, but I still cannot locate it. Thanks
    Not an answer to your question, but DJC has been maintaining a running list of everyone who we have elected in post 104 of this thread. These are the players/contributors elected to date for the Blue Jays:

    Code:
    Toronto Blue Jays (11)
    
    NAME                 ELECTED AS   RND
    Roberto Alomar       Player       1st
    Jesse Barfield       Player       1st
    Joe Carter           Player       1st
    Carlos Delgado       Player       1st
    Tony Fernandez       Player       1st
    Cito Gaston          Contributor  1st
    Pat Gillick          Contributor  1st
    Tom Henke            Player       1st
    Jimmy Key            Player       1st
    John Olerud          Player       1st
    This is the list that I've been using when determining if there's anyone worth considering as a candidate for a given team's HOF for the later rounds of this project.

  19. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Not an answer to your question,
    Thanks, but I kinda want the actual thread to see if I voted in that one or not, and for the full results.

  20. #245
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    The master thread has links to every election for every franchise in the first post. That thread is here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...ster-Thread%29 The Blue Jays thread is here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...e-Jays-round-1
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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  21. #246
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    dgarza offers this case for Roger Clemens for the Astros (no second required):

    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Case for...

    Roger Clemens
    2x AS (2004,2005) [Started the 2004 game]

    2004
    NL CY
    8th in NL MVP
    18-4, 2nd in Wins NL
    .818 % led NL
    4th in HR/9, H/9 NL
    5th in pWAR, ERA, ERA+, Strikeouts NL

    2005
    3rd in NL CY
    Led NL in pWAR, ERA, ERA+, H/9
    2nd in WAR, WHIP, HR/9
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  22. #247
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    dgarza also offered this on behalf of Rocky Colavito for the Tigers (no second required):

    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Case for...

    Rocky Colavito
    Despite only playing for Detroit for 4 seasons (1960-1963), he was part of 4 ASGs as a Tiger and started 3 of them.
    He only had 2 ASG hits as a Tiger, but they were both Home Runs, giving him a .615 ASG SLG as a Tiger.

    1961 was his best season with Detroit (Tiger seasonal rankings).
    45 HRs (3rd) [Only Cecil Fielder has it as many since.]
    140 RBIs (5th) [No Tiger has had as many since.]
    19 WAR Runs Fielding (9th tied w/ 3 others)
    129 Runs (12th) [No Tiger has had as many since.]
    113 BBs (13th)
    338 Total Bases (16th)
    7.9 WAR (18th)

    From 1960-1963, Colavito :
    1st in RBIs in the AL :
    Code:
                                        
    Rk              Player RBI From   To
    1       Rocky Colavito 430 1960 1963
    2     Harmon Killebrew 424 1960 1963
    3          Roger Maris 406 1960 1963
    4          Jim Gentile 398 1960 1963
    5          Bob Allison 367 1960 1963
    1st in Total Bases in the AL :
    Code:
                                          
    Rk             Player   TB   G From   To
    1      Rocky Colavito 1171 629 1960 1963
    2    Harmon Killebrew 1151 571 1960 1963
    3         Roger Maris 1111 544 1960 1963
    4           Al Kaline 1056 545 1960 1963
    5     Brooks Robinson 1050 638 1960 1963
    2nd in Runs in the AL :
    Code:
                                         
    Rk               Player   R From   To
    1         Mickey Mantle 386 1960 1963
    2        Rocky Colavito 377 1960 1963
    3           Roger Maris 375 1960 1963
    4           Bob Allison 363 1960 1963
    5             Al Kaline 360 1960 1963
    3rd in HRs in the AL :
    Code:
                                        
    Rk              Player  HR From   To
    1     Harmon Killebrew 170 1960 1963
    2          Roger Maris 156 1960 1963
    3       Rocky Colavito 139 1960 1963
    4        Mickey Mantle 139 1960 1963
    5            Norm Cash 124 1960 1963
    5th in WAR in the AL :
    Code:
                                               
    Rk             Player WAR/pos   G From   To
    1       Mickey Mantle    29.0 494 1960 1963
    2         Roger Maris    22.6 544 1960 1963
    3           Norm Cash    20.9 575 1960 1963
    4           Al Kaline    20.5 545 1960 1963
    5      Rocky Colavito    17.5 629 1960 1963
    5th in WAR Runs Fielding in the AL :
    Code:
                                              
    Rk             Player Rfield   G From   To
    1         Clete Boyer     89 582 1960 1963
    2     Brooks Robinson     63 638 1960 1963
    3       Luis Aparicio     54 608 1960 1963
    4          Ron Hansen     48 523 1960 1963
    5      Rocky Colavito     47 629 1960 1963
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  23. #248
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    We're now down to three franchises without a single nominee for the second chance round:

    Blue Jays
    Marlins
    Padres
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  24. #249
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    dgarza offers what I will agree is about as good a case as can be made for someone for the Marlins' HOF. That said, I'm still of the opinion there aren't any retired Marlin players worthy of that honor. That said, Castillo gets a shot in the Marlin second chance election.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Case for...

    Luis Castillo
    3x AS (2002, 2003, 2005)
    3 straight Gold Gloves (2003, 2004, 2005)
    Led NL in Stolen Bases (2000, 2002) and Singles (2000, 2002)
    Led Marlins in WAR (2000, 2003)

    Castillo was part of both Marlins' World Series championship teams.
    In 2003, he helped get them there by hitting a foul ball to Steve Bartman.

    35 game hitting streak in 2002.

    Holds team record for most Games, At Bats, Plate Appearances, Runs, Hits, Triples, Walks, Stolen Bases, Sac Hits, Times on Base.
    Last edited by jalbright; 04-03-2012 at 07:33 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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  25. #250
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    dgarza proposed Ken Caminiti as a second chance nominee for the Padres. He'll get that chance, but the steroid connection means he won't be getting my vote as he's just on the plus side for me if you ignore that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Case for...

    Ken Caminiti
    1996 NL MVP
    2x AS (1996, 1997) [Started 3B in 1997]
    3 straight Gold Gloves NL 3B (1995, 1996, 1997)
    Silver Slugger NL 3B (1996)

    Holds Single Season Team Record for :
    RBIs with 130 in 1996
    WAR Runs Batting with 60 in 1996

    Team Career Records :
    1st in SLG (500 game min.), OPS+ (500 game min.), ISO (500 game min.)
    3rd in AVG (500 game min.), OBP (500 game min.)

    3B Putouts NL
    2nd (1994, 1996)
    3rd (1995)

    3B Assists NL
    1st (1995)
    2nd (1996, 1997)

    3B Total Zone Runs NL
    1st (1994)

    3B Range Factor/9 NL
    2nd (1997)

    3B Range Factor/Game NL
    1st (1997)
    3rd (1995, 1996)

    3B Fielding % NL
    3rd (1994)

    Became Padres' Spring Training instructor after playing days were over.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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