Team Halls of Fame general discussion thread

[jalbright]

I see that I did a poor job quoting. I am seconding Tekulve as well as the other 4 even though I do not intend to vote for Tekulve. His omission was a sloppy cut and paste.

Hey, we all make mistakes--I make my share, that's for sure. Anyway, thanks.

[jalbright]

It looks to me like the fifth round will be the last before the second chance voting begins. All the franchises so far have had issues this round.

[Nerdlinger]

I updated the cumulative list again to include the results from the Red Sox and Tigers 4th rounds. Chet Lemon is a new addition to the list of players elected to multiple Halls (White Sox and Tigers).

[jalbright]

I'm going to start the fifth round this weekend with three teams--the Dodgers, Yankees and Braves. The Pirates and Reds are the only teams left in the fourth round, and they're both stuck at six votes, not enough to warrant a fifth round. If the votes materialize and they seem to deserve a fifth round, I'll give it to whichever one(s) qualify. The fifth round will be the last before the second chance and actives rounds. The Dodgers, Yankees and Braves are the only three that have qualified for a fifth round so far.

If neither the Reds nor Pirates make it to a fifth round, we'll start the second chance round next weekend, but with the first round taking three full weeks. If the Pirates and/or Reds make a fifth round, the second chance round will start midweek of the week of the 26th.

[Nerdlinger]

Cumulative list updated again, if anyone cares.

[jjpm74]

I'm going to start the fifth round this weekend with three teams--the Dodgers, Yankees and Braves. The Pirates and Reds are the only teams left in the fourth round, and they're both stuck at six votes, not enough to warrant a fifth round. If the votes materialize and they seem to deserve a fifth round, I'll give it to whichever one(s) qualify. The fifth round will be the last before the second chance and actives rounds. The Dodgers, Yankees and Braves are the only three that have qualified for a fifth round so far.

If neither the Reds nor Pirates make it to a fifth round, we'll start the second chance round next weekend, but with the first round taking three full weeks. If the Pirates and/or Reds make a fifth round, the second chance round will start midweek of the week of the 26th.

Both this and the single ballot HOF threads shopule be added to the info sticky, IMO if they aren't already.

[Nerdlinger]

[post retracted (meant to post in Yankees HOF Round 5 thread)]

[jalbright]

We've had this presented for Bob Meusel:

The case for Bob Meusel:

Bob Meusel played 10 years for the NY Yankees and often gets overshadowed because of who he played with (Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig). While with the Yankees, Meusel was an MVP candidate 3 times, and had an explosive year in 1928 when he led the league in games, home runs and RBIs. His best 3 WAR with the Yankees was 4.2, 3.7, 3.3. He also accumulated 107 Gray ink in his career, 99% of which came as a Yankee. Meusel is not a HOFer, but he is definitely worthy of the Yankees HOF.

According to www.baseball-reference.com he [ed.: Meusel] had 23.9 career WAR, 24.4 with the Yankees.

Meusel is a tough case for me. When I add up his peaks and career with the Yankees, he's a tiny bit short. I ran his season by season WAR against other corner OF of his day, and he never finished higher than 7th, and only once that high. IOW, he was never All-Star quality. That makes it really hard for me to support him. I won't if I'm not in the position of blocking his induction. If I'm in that position, I'll have a dilemma on my hands.

[jalbright]

I'm also going to present a case for Burt Hooton. Hooton has also passed the 50% level in a prior election, so he doesn't need a second to make it to the second chance round if he doesn't make it here.

As a Dodger, Hooton was:
in the top 10 in pitcher WAR five times;
in the top 10 in WHIP six times;
in the top 10 in ERA five times;
in the top 10 in wins 4 times; and
in the top 10 in won/loss percentage four times.

[jalbright]

I'm going to present a case for Jake Daubert, which won't require a second as he's already gotten over 50% of the vote in an election for the franchise.

According to WAR, Daubert was the second best NL 1B four times while with the Dodgers, and was third three times. Two of those three third place finishes were by the tiny margin of 0.2, or about two runs. Bottom line is, he was all-star quality at least six years with the franchise, and I think that's enough to deserve a spot in the team HOF.

[jalbright]

I'm going to add a case for Bob Shawkey. He has reached 50% in the voting, so he doesn't need a second to make the second chance round.

In his time with the Yankees, Shawkey:

was in the top 10 among pitching WAR five times (three of them third place finishes);
was in the top 10 in ERA three times;
was in the top 10 in wins six times;
was in the top 10 in won/lost percentage six times;
was in the top 10 in WHIP six times;
was in the top ten in K/ 9 IP seven times;
was in the top 10 in IP four times;
was in the top 10 in strikeouts seven times; and
was in the top 10 in K /BB ratio 8 times.

Yeah, he had good taste in teammates, but he did a lot to help himself, too.

[jalbright]

Here's three nominees for the Dodgers:

Quick pitches for Labine, Perranoski, Roseboro.

Clem Labine played 11 seasons for the Dodgers. He was a quality reliever the entire time, His 113 ERA+ doesn't seem that impressive, but relievers were used differently in the 50s. Labine AVERAGED more than 2 IP per game, and started a number of times in pressure situations- usually with good results.

Ron Perranoski had a 132 ERA+ in 8 seasons as a Dodger. He also frequently pitched multiple innings, and led the NL 3 times in games pitched. He was a significant component of the Dodgers' success in the 60s.

John Rseboro was a high quality catcher for the Doodgers for 11 seasons, late 50s through late 60s. A good defender and a decent hitter- his stats appear depressed due to the pitchers' era he played in. Roseboro was also a team leader for the Dodgers in those days. He was a 3X all star and 2X Gold Glove winner with the Dodgers.

[jalbright]

Another Dodger nominee:

The case for Jaime Jarrin as a contributor:

Jaime Jarrin is the the Spanish sportscasting world what Vin Scully and Harry Caray are to the English speaking broadcasting world. During Jarrin's 54 years with the Dodgers, he has

called over 4000 games
transcribed road games on the fly for 14 years early on
received the Ford C. Frick award in 1998
received several prestigious awards for his Spanish speaking announcing

Jarrin is someone who at least deserves a second look, IMO and is someone who has had an important role with the Dodgers since they moved to Los Angeles.

This is what wikipedia has to say about Jarrin's accolades:

In 1998, Jarrín received the Ford C. Frick Award from the Baseball Hall of Fame, becoming the second Spanish-language broadcaster to receive that award, joining Mets and Yankees announcer, Buck Canel. The Dodgers are the only team with two Hall of Fame announcers, English language announcer Vin Scully being the other. In February 1998, Jarrin was the first recipient of the Southern California Broadcaster Association's President's Award. Also in 1998, he was honored by the National Association of Hispanic Journalists with their highest award, and received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

In 2002, Jarrin was inducted into the California Broadcasters Association Hall of Fame and in 2003, into the Hispanic Heritage Baseball Museum. He received the 2003 Foreign Language Sports Broadcaster Award from the Southern California Sports Broadcasters inducted into the Southern California Sports Broadcaster's Hall of Fame. Jarrin was honored again by the SCSB with the foreign-language broadcaster of the year award in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 and 2008. In 2009, he was honored by the Society of St. Vincent DePaul for his commitment to changing the lives of at-risk youth in the community.

He has also received La Gran Cruz al Merito en El Grado de Comendador (the highest civilian medal) from his native Ecuador in January 1992. In 1990 he was named as one of the top 100 Influential Hispanics in the United States by Hispanic Business Magazine. In 1970, he was the first Latin American to win the Golden Mike Award, which he received again in 1971. In 2000, he spoke at the MLB Rookie Development seminar, which is designed to prepare top minor league prospects for the Major Leagues.

The caveat here is that while he is unquestionably one of the most important Spanish radio broadcasters in the US history of radio, a lot of attention comes from what he has done for the community and some of it comes from his role as a Spanish broadcaster outside of the Dodgers organization. I myself am on the fence with him, but he at least deserves some attention and discussion here.

[Nerdlinger]

Cumulative list updated again. Bob Elliott is the newest addition to the list of players elected to multiple franchise HOFs (Braves and Pirates).

[jalbright]

Here's an updated list of those nominated for the second chance elections (I combed the election threads for arguments for those who have yet to be elected). I will list candidates for teams who are still holding elections, but will remove them if the player is elected. All these candidates are considered to have a second. I will add others as they are nominated and seconded, and will remove anyone who has their nomination argument revoked by the argument maker unless someone else wishes to adopt the argument as their own.

Angels
Troy Glaus

Astros
Roger Clemens
Turk Farrell

Athletics
Billy Beane as a contributor
Tony LaRussa as a contributor

Blue Jays
Lloyd Moseby

Braves
John Clarkson
Billy Hamilton
Fred Tenney
Arthur Soden as a contributor
Harry Wright as a contributor

Brewers
Bud Selig as a contributor

Cardinals
Jesse Haines
Alfred Spink as a contributor

Diamondbacks
Brandon Webb

Dodgers
Jake Daubert
Clem Labine
Ron Perranoski
Johnny Roseboro
Ned Hanlon as a contributor
Jaime Jarrin as a contributor
Walter O'Malley as a contributor

Giants
Sal Maglie

Indians
Bill Bradley
Ray Chapman
Wes Ferrell
Mike Garcia
Joe Jackson
Herb Score as a contributor

Mariners
Dave Niehaus as a contributor

Marlins
Luis Castillo

Mets
Gary Carter
Ed Kranepool
John Franco
Joan Payson (contributor)
William Shea (contributor)

Nationals/Expos
Jacques Doucet as a contributor

Orioles
Dave McNally
George Stone
Ray Miller as a contributor
Bill DeWitt as a contributor
Chuck Thompson as a contributor

Padres
Ken Caminiti

Phillies
Del Ennis
Dallas Green as a contributor

Pirates
Kent Tekulve
Lloyd Waner
Larry Frattare as a contributor
Denny McKnight as a contributor
William Nimick as a contributor

Rangers
Tom Grieve as a contributor
Ron Washington as a contributor

Rays
Andrew Friedman as a contributor

Reds
Lonny Frey
Dolf Luque
Jim Maloney
Bob Purkey
O. P. Caylor as a contributor
Frank Bancroft as a contributor
Bob Howsam as a contributor

Red Sox
Ellis Kinder
Dick Radatz
Jason Varitek
Tim Wakefield

Royals
Dennis Leonard
John Schuerholz as a contributor
Kevin Seitzer as a contributor

Tigers
Rocky Colavito

Twins
Chuck Knoblauch
Firpo Marberry

White Sox
Early Wynn
Bill Melton
Clark Griffith as a contributor
Ozzie Guillen as a contributor

Yankees
Bob Meusel
Bob Shawkey
George Weiss as a contributor

Defunct NL
Fred Dunlap
Joe Start
Jack Rowe
Frank Bancroft as a contributor
Jack Chapman as a contributor
Patsy Tebeau as a contributor

Pre 1876
Nat Hicks
Asa Brainard
Candy Cummings
Levi Meyerle

Negro Leagues
Francisco Coimbre
Frank Warfield as a contributor
Alex Pompez as a contributor